IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-17
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11:36:58 <FLHerne> This channel is a bit quiet :P
11:37:19 <Amaury_> is there a probleme with server to join ?
11:37:19 <Sacro> that's just how it seems
11:37:37 <Amaury_> i'm not able to update server list
11:37:59 <Amaury_> may be because of 1.2 ?
11:38:43 <Amaury_> anyone able to play ?
11:48:46 <Amaury_> is there someone here ?
11:50:07 <Amaury_> hum ... how can I diagnostik the probleme ?
11:50:39 <Amaury_> when I want to update TTD answer unable to connect server
11:55:53 * FLHerne doesn't use multiplayer enough to know :-(
12:01:14 <planetmaker> If you can't connect to a server, you the server's down or it has mal-configured ports somewhere. Usually
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12:15:53 <NGC3982> marknadsunderskningsprogrammering.
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12:59:27 <andythenorth> or das Eddi|zuHause
12:59:42 <andythenorth> have you mastered pixa yet?
12:59:52 <andythenorth> I should have called it pikka :P
12:59:52 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as it's not "die Eddi|zuHause" :p
13:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have not continued yet from the state of yesterday
13:00:26 <andythenorth> looked pretty good
13:00:54 <andythenorth> I'm going to make an example teaching how to generate 'hello world' text using pixels :P
13:00:55 <andythenorth> in increasingly complex ways
13:01:05 <andythenorth> today I am trying to sell something to Australia
13:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i hope it's not didgeridoos :)
13:03:25 <andythenorth> they have them I think
13:03:31 <andythenorth> probably got enough
13:16:21 * andythenorth has been poking at FIRS some more
13:16:34 <andythenorth> Pikka: when is your industry set ready? :P
13:16:43 <andythenorth> you should include a minecraft mine :P
13:16:59 <FLHerne> For mining minecraft?
13:17:20 <andythenorth> ideally, if you click on it, we provide a new cb for 'game over'
13:17:36 <FLHerne> What does mined minecraft from a minecraft mine look like when you mine it? :P
13:17:38 <Pikka> I had contemplated a minecraft grf
13:17:57 <Pikka> it's one of those things that seems like a cool idea
13:18:05 <andythenorth> implementing minecraft in ttd :P
13:18:16 <andythenorth> implementing TTD in minecraft seems more plausible
13:18:36 <andythenorth> someone I know patched a full js interpreter into minecraft iirc
13:18:46 <andythenorth> so build a C++ emulator in javascript :P
13:19:26 <Pikka> minecraft is silly, really
13:19:43 <Pikka> although I have been playing a bit of old yobgox recently
13:19:50 <andythenorth> I've stayed out of minecrack
13:19:54 <andythenorth> I know what would happen :P
13:19:54 <Pikka> I'd play newer yobgox but it's very unstable
13:20:03 <andythenorth> I've nothing against MC, but I only get one life
13:20:26 <Pikka> there are worse things to do with your life than minecraft
13:20:42 <FLHerne> Is OTTD one of them? :P
13:21:31 <andythenorth> I've run out of discretionary time, for the next 18 years or so
13:21:47 <andythenorth> I do work, children, ottd and sleep in that order
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13:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> surely, playing minecraft will only need dropping one of those :p
13:28:39 <Pikka> minecraft is actually pretty boring
13:28:47 <Pikka> one tends to play it in spurts
13:30:39 <andythenorth> as far as I can see, it's project based
13:30:43 <andythenorth> seems like online lego
13:30:51 <andythenorth> 'can I build a cannon in minecraft?'
13:30:56 <andythenorth> 'can I build a roller coaster'
13:31:11 <andythenorth> 'can I build an automated mine cart dispatching system?'
13:31:18 <andythenorth> 'how far can I throw stuff?'
13:31:49 <Pikka> well, online is even more griefer-prone than openttd
13:32:00 <andythenorth> all the players I know just hack on it
13:32:04 <andythenorth> rather than playing
13:32:20 <CornishPasty> I wonder if you can create OpenTTD systems in minecraft... :P
13:34:50 <Pikka> andy: and because it's so griefer-prone, all the servers use whitelists and only let people in who they know. and getting to know minecraft players is not much fun.
13:35:21 <Pikka> I think sss on the forums would be at the "thoughtful, intelligent and mature" end of the minecraft community spectrum.
13:36:28 <Pikka> even with mods it's a fairly shallow game, in either single or multi player imo
13:36:38 <andythenorth> millions of downloads!
13:36:43 <andythenorth> €8 per download!
13:37:19 <Pikka> it would be nice if the openttd devs had three million dollars that they decided they didn't really need so could give away to their friends.
13:37:55 <andythenorth> we should help them get it
13:37:56 <zooks> minecraft alse is loaded with really bad bugs
13:38:00 <zooks> like memleaks and stuff
13:38:45 <zooks> as there is only 5 people working on the game and they are only interested in adding features to attract more sales
13:42:11 <Pikka> andythenorth: I'm not sure how monetisable GPL-licenced content is, though.
13:43:46 <Pikka> from my point of view, as far as possibly making money from OTTD goes, I can only see grfs as an audience-building tool, rather than saleable products in themselves.
13:44:35 <dihedral> uh - hi :-) a Pikka :-)
13:46:41 <andythenorth> Pikka: we just charge for the pipe, i.e. Bananas
13:47:12 <andythenorth> same reason I pay apple, instead of doing illegal limewire-ish type things
13:47:26 <Fori> Is there any possibility for trains being replaced by the same train but a newer model?
13:48:09 <andythenorth> but not in a way you can use with auto-replace :P
13:48:18 <andythenorth> I invented a spec for it the other day
13:48:31 <andythenorth> give vehicles an incremental version number
13:48:34 <andythenorth> it would be neat
13:48:40 <Pikka> there's no shortage of IDs any more
13:48:41 <Fori> But for now there is none? ^^
13:48:49 <andythenorth> but probably it's just as easy to use more IDs
13:48:57 <Pikka> stat upgrades are to be avoided
13:49:05 <andythenorth> I use them in HEQS
13:49:08 <andythenorth> avoid buy menu spam
13:49:17 <planetmaker> Fori, there's autorenew
13:49:18 <andythenorth> as model life is a total crap shoot and broken imho
13:49:20 <Pikka> if they're minor upgrades, perhaps
13:49:29 <planetmaker> whic hreplaces with the same
13:49:35 <Pikka> but things like the early steam locomotives in NARS, the difference is too great
13:49:36 <planetmaker> and autoreplace, which replaces with another engine
13:51:27 <Fori> So I'll have to wait for a new engine?
13:51:51 <andythenorth> 'buy menu availability' cb is probably a trivial patch for vehicles
13:51:57 <andythenorth> stations have it
13:52:05 <Pikka> I've always wanted that
13:52:07 <andythenorth> not today, but remind me
13:52:13 <Pikka> to have different vehicles for different players ;)
13:52:21 <andythenorth> in my idea....hmm
13:52:37 <andythenorth> I want to be able to make availability of vehicle x depend on availability of vehicle y
13:52:47 <andythenorth> I'm *sure* that won't be circular :P
13:53:50 <andythenorth> _probably_ it's called in a deterministic order, perhaps by ID
13:53:56 <andythenorth> and so loops would be impossible :P
13:57:34 <andythenorth> iirc the hardest part about adding cbs looks like patching nforenum :P
13:57:39 <andythenorth> I may regret that comment
13:58:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is 'buy menu availability' cb of interest to CETS?
13:59:20 <andythenorth> in the sense of making vehicles appear in buy menu by returning 0x00 or 0x01 etc
13:59:26 <andythenorth> and I might patch it
13:59:30 <andythenorth> but it will need a reviewer :P
13:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it would be useful to tie availability of one vehicle to the availability of another vehicle
13:59:44 <andythenorth> so it might need new vars
14:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that may interfere with the prototype phase
14:00:15 <andythenorth> ok, so things to think about
14:00:23 <andythenorth> but a useful cb?
14:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for example, i introduce "ICE1", i may want to introduce it as a "10 Wagon", "12 Wagon" and "14 Wagon" version
14:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> as separate buy menu items
14:01:21 <andythenorth> you want all to appear at same time?
14:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then only one of these versions should be offered as prototype
14:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and all others should get available at the same time
14:01:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but only to the person accepting the prototype
14:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and then he should only need to buy one of them
14:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> to fulfill the "bought prototype" condition
14:02:25 <andythenorth> doesn't sound batshit crazy
14:02:42 <andythenorth> I'd have to read src to see how that could be done though :P
14:02:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it may be possible to do this by other means though
14:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. don't code these as different vehicle IDs
14:03:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but code a "multiple variants" callback
14:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> that is registering multiple buy-menu entries
14:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and which one was selected is passed to the purchase callbacks as extra callback info
14:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so the articulation callback may return different stuff
14:05:19 <andythenorth> I had the multiple variants idea too
14:05:30 <andythenorth> points to vehicle-local-storage imo
14:05:41 <andythenorth> but in this case, on the type, not the instance
14:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> this has nothing to do with storage
14:08:28 <andythenorth> I think authors would want to customise what they're doing with this
14:08:52 <andythenorth> storage / extend arbitrary properties /s
14:09:56 * andythenorth doubts it's wise
14:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this could just be a separation of "cargo subtypes" from cargos. and one could allow dropdown boxes in the buy menu listing the cargos and the subtypes
14:12:22 <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: winner
14:13:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: same comment could apply to other things
14:13:47 <andythenorth> - articulated vehicle lengths
14:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but making subtypes changeable after building would conflict with the idea of having the articulation callback depend on it
14:14:18 <andythenorth> - stat variations (power, weight etc)
14:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: what?
14:17:11 <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: the Prince of Persia source
14:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: the whole sentence
14:18:19 <CornishPasty> Never mind. You'll be forever wondering
14:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: one big problem for separating subtypes from cargos is handling backwards compatibility for existing GRFs
14:31:45 <andythenorth> just don't break it?
14:31:54 <andythenorth> respect all current vars and cbs, it just keeps working
14:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that duplicates memory and stuff
14:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if done "the wrong way"
14:33:07 <andythenorth> worse is better :P
14:33:25 <andythenorth> but also...better is better
14:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i didn't even understand what that meant
14:34:05 <andythenorth> you're familiar with worse is better though? :)
14:34:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it seemed to argue a "grand design" vs. a "step by step" approach
14:34:26 <andythenorth> approximately yes
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14:34:41 <andythenorth> primarily it advocates simplicity of implementation *above* other factors
14:34:48 <andythenorth> it doesn't say ignore other factors
14:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and then cited some artificial reasons why one should be superior
14:35:00 <andythenorth> nor does it say make things deliberately worse
14:35:15 <andythenorth> it's basically a pretty simple argument that shipping something beats shipping nothing
14:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the tower of babel was a "grand design". and that's the reason why it failed.
14:38:37 <andythenorth> it doesn't necessarily recommend burning all future possibilities to ship today :P
14:38:47 <andythenorth> nor breaking everything that was already built to ship today :P
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14:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's why i didn't understand the whole argument
14:41:02 <andythenorth> it originates in the question 'why did C and Unix together beat Lisp'
14:41:17 <andythenorth> it's a bit like 'why did PHP comprehensively beat Python and Perl'
14:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because the properties that someone defines as "best" do not automatically create the biggest "market share"
14:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> why did VHS win over Betamax?
14:44:49 <andythenorth> because porn was available on VHS
14:44:58 <andythenorth> dunno why that was, but it's the usual reason given :P
14:45:01 <Eddi|zuHause> why did Bluray win over HD-DVD?
14:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> why did "free market" win over "communism"?
14:46:38 <andythenorth> seems to me like 'markets captured by elites' won
14:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> why did mammals win over dinosaurs?
14:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sometimes the label doesn't accurately describe the content :p
15:20:06 <Fori> Is this "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at up to five stations within town influence within a two month period. It does not matter which cargos are loaded/unloaded. " still accurate with 1.2?
15:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you load a GoalScript
15:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that can override this behaviour
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15:23:58 <Fori_DC> Did someone answer me?
15:24:08 *** Fori_DC is now known as Fori
15:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, unless you load a GoalScript
15:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that can override this behaviour
15:25:51 <Fori> One should use timetables for that, huh?
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15:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if your vehicle arrives less than every two months, you probably do something wrong
15:30:11 <Fori> I seem to be doing something wrong. It continuesly says "This town doesnt grow."
15:30:27 <Fori> Even though water / food are green and I got some mail trains stopping by from while to while.
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15:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> can't help you with that
15:38:54 <planetmaker> maybe you use a game script?
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15:54:37 <FLHerne> Are you using some strange townset?
15:55:09 <FLHerne> I believe TaI Houses does something to town growth...
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15:56:19 <Fori> I just tested on temperate and made a bus line in town.
15:56:38 <Fori> Seems like my deliveries are not fast enough. Strange.
15:57:02 <Fori> It should be enough when a train catches some mail bags all 2 months. Isnt that right?
15:58:28 <Fori> Now I've seen that there was loading / unloading in these two months but it didnt grow. Strange that is.
16:06:18 <DorpsGek> Sacro: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 27 weeks, 4 days, 15 hours, 47 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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16:12:20 <DorpsGek> Fori: Fori was last seen in #openttd 13 minutes and 52 seconds ago: <Fori> Now I've seen that there was loading / unloading in these two months but it didnt grow. Strange that is.
16:12:41 <DorpsGek> Fori: drac_boy was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 26 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <drac_boy> manual>gameplay>multiplayer
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16:45:01 <supermop> when did this canadian station drama happen? and why?
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16:56:17 <Fori> Eddi|zuHause: Ich found the problem!
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17:18:23 <andythenorth> did you solve Metal Fabrication Plant? ;)
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17:22:29 <andythenorth> it makes metal...stuff
17:23:19 <Terkhen> something that takes metal and produces "metal" :P
17:23:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not enough doctor who in this spring...
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17:30:13 <Alberth> it should make question marks!
17:37:40 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
17:43:18 <Alberth> a question mark stretching itself :p
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24123 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt french.txt slovak.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 8 changes by telanus
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 22 changes by OliTTD
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovak - 6 changes by teso
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18:16:50 <michi_cc> Last chance to dig out your old, rusty and forgotten patch! ;)
18:17:52 <NGC3982> i should exclude rusty off my hilight list.
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18:39:29 <Fori> Can I influence how often a town grows? E.g. 100 or 200 days?
18:39:42 <Fori> Cause I got 2 cities and one grows every 100 and the other every 199 days.
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18:46:03 <zxbiohazardzx> quicky question: is there a limit to the ammount of bridges one can have in OTTD?
18:46:31 <zxbiohazardzx> as in different bridge-types, newgrf wise
18:46:55 <Fori> Alberth: Does that article cover the new changes of 1.2?
18:47:01 <Alberth> oh bridge types, that something else
18:47:52 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah TTDP its 11, but is this hardcoded and can this ammount be raised?
18:48:02 <Fori> I don't think so. That's why I asked here ^^
18:48:46 <Alberth> Fori: I don't even know exactly what has changed, except that you've got much more control now with a game script
18:48:48 <zxbiohazardzx> in TTDP the number is 11 - if I'm not mistaken. What I've never understood though is why bridges must be identical in both views. Having a different view in the 2nd direction would give us 22 different bridges - assuming we're talking TTDP here. Could the similar number for OTTD be 13/26?
18:48:55 <zxbiohazardzx> thats the question actually
18:49:00 <supermop> would need to be patched
18:49:56 <Alberth> static const uint MAX_BRIDGES = 13; ///< Maximal number of available bridge specs.
18:50:09 <zxbiohazardzx> hardcoded to 13 because?
18:50:17 <zxbiohazardzx> uint can hold > 13 right?
18:51:18 <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth stupid specs again? why is it limited to 13 and can this not be altered via a setting or via the newGRFs ???
18:51:28 <zxbiohazardzx> what cpp is that in btw?
18:51:51 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: OpenTTD follows specs, not the other way around :)
18:53:19 <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth makes me wonder about those "specs" more and more
18:53:36 <zxbiohazardzx> where are the specs defined, who defined them, and why are they so holy-bile-styled
18:53:59 <supermop> bridge specs need a lot of work
18:54:45 <Alberth> historically, a lot of them came from the original program and from TTDPatch
18:55:16 <Alberth> people do make extensions though, eg the 32bpp support
18:55:53 <supermop> more types, custom sprite layout, callbacks to be aware of neighboring bridges, and ability for new grf to determine different sets of bridge type for each way type
18:58:05 <zxbiohazardzx> supermop yeah custom bridgeheads etc
18:58:11 <zxbiohazardzx> but i was more wondering why it was set to 13
18:58:25 <zxbiohazardzx> and if that limit could be increased to allow more newgrf bridges :P
18:58:46 <supermop> well custom bridgeheads would be have little to do with new grf specs
18:59:22 <supermop> unless you want to set the property to allow them for each tipe
19:04:22 <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz fair nough
19:04:34 <zxbiohazardzx> lemmy see if spec says anything about those 13 hardcoded number
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19:05:26 <zxbiohazardzx> we already added 2 in OTTD?
19:05:46 <zxbiohazardzx> according to the spec, ID (dec) ID(Hex) has 2 extra ones for OTTD that arent in TTDP
19:06:04 <zxbiohazardzx> so why would it be impossible to add more / make it more variable?
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19:07:01 <supermop> no one has done it yet
19:07:19 <supermop> nml doesnt support bridges, but i really want it to
19:07:34 <zxbiohazardzx> well there are bridge renewal sets
19:07:42 <zxbiohazardzx> but im wondering if i want to combine or add more:P
19:07:44 <supermop> but i doubt it will until there is some better agreed upon spec
19:08:01 <zxbiohazardzx> eg grey brick, red brick etc variations
19:08:11 <supermop> those only allow up to 13 too, anc can only use one of the default sprite layouts
19:10:30 <zxbiohazardzx> yes i know they only use 13
19:10:39 <zxbiohazardzx> as the spec lists 13 slots/ids that you can then modify
19:10:43 <zxbiohazardzx> but the main question again is why
19:11:01 <zxbiohazardzx> as the hex gives you at least 15/16 options
19:11:17 <zxbiohazardzx> and we use 00-> 0C
19:12:06 <andythenorth> maybe the higher parts of the byte are used for something else
19:12:06 <planetmaker> well, the current approach won't be extended to further IDs. The next extension would need to be real NewGRF bridges with action0 etc
19:12:17 <planetmaker> just adding new IDs which need hard-coding is not a good thing
19:12:26 <zxbiohazardzx> @Planetmaker thats the question
19:12:29 <andythenorth> or maybe there were only 13 original bridges
19:12:36 <zxbiohazardzx> if i have sprites for lets say 26 or more bridges
19:12:42 <zxbiohazardzx> how would that work ingame?
19:12:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there were 11. And 2 added
19:12:51 <zxbiohazardzx> do i get 13 and the rest gets cut out?
19:12:58 <zxbiohazardzx> 11 original, 2 got added indeed
19:13:24 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: with a newgrf support, you would get more. Whatever then is the allowed amount of bridges ;-)
19:13:42 <zxbiohazardzx> planetmaker i recon that support is not in?
19:13:59 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: somewhere along the path from source to loaded in openttd, you'd lose 13 currently
19:14:06 <planetmaker> oh, it's a very nice thing. But it does not yet exist nor even a patch (that I know of)
19:14:07 <zxbiohazardzx> bridge-types not ammount of total bridges ingame
19:14:21 <zxbiohazardzx> so yeah Planetmaker hardcoded is the limit atm
19:14:33 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: if it exists, it would be in the newgrf spec
19:14:36 <zxbiohazardzx> would it not be an idea to add 3 empty/dummy slots that newgrfs can overwrite as they do now?
19:14:49 <zxbiohazardzx> newGRF spec lists 00-> 0C ids
19:14:59 <planetmaker> it's actually not even a limit. It's an exact amount of bridge types. Though you can change availability date to reduce bridge types available
19:15:08 <zxbiohazardzx> so afaik you can add 0D,0E,0F to at least fill it up Hex
19:15:31 <zxbiohazardzx> planetmaker, total bridge renewal etc do change the ammount?
19:15:36 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: no, that's not an idea
19:15:44 <planetmaker> as the sprites need hard-coding, too
19:15:46 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: as said by planetmaker, it is a wrong direction.
19:15:56 <planetmaker> as does the sprite layout
19:16:28 <planetmaker> and hard-coding invisible sprites so that they *might* be replaced... urgs
19:16:45 <planetmaker> then someone just changes availability.. and voila :-)
19:16:47 <Alberth> finally an invisible bridge :p
19:16:48 <planetmaker> invisible bridges
19:18:05 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: in other words, we need a new newgrf spec for bridges :p
19:20:43 <zxbiohazardzx> haha so the un-change able spec needs a change
19:21:42 <planetmaker> no change. As usual an extension. In a similar manner as vehicles, houses, industries
19:22:39 <zxbiohazardzx> and then in theory the ammount of bridges and the design/lenght/spriteuseperlenght will all move to the GRF?
19:22:48 <zxbiohazardzx> as all those are linked
19:24:08 <andythenorth> spec can be extended
19:24:17 <andythenorth> existing stuff can't be changed :(
19:24:22 <planetmaker> there'll be a maximum amount of allowed bridge types. Not sure how high that can be, that dependso n the free bits in the map array
19:24:40 <planetmaker> but the actually available bridges will be then newgrf-determined as the other stuff
19:25:03 <planetmaker> the 13 default bridges still would be there, unless made unavailable or also changed by the newgrf. So yes
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19:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> bridge availability depending on railtype would be nice
19:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> don't offer 400km/h bridges for an 80km/h railtype
19:27:26 <zxbiohazardzx> alot of good features relate to it :P
19:29:28 <zxbiohazardzx> now the next question
19:29:43 <zxbiohazardzx> in relation to patches etc, how hard is it to modify the spec to accept above idea's ?:P
19:30:12 <andythenorth> about as hard as patching in some cases
19:30:28 <andythenorth> in other cases, modiying the spec is much harder than patching
19:30:55 <zxbiohazardzx> i cant even patch :P but i was just wondering in general :P
19:31:13 <zxbiohazardzx> my coding skills end after the interwebs & a bit of java
19:33:14 <Alberth> getting some agreement on the new spec is a challenge enough for now, I think ;)
19:34:13 <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth well as i mentioned, there is more then just changing the number of bridges
19:34:39 <zxbiohazardzx> as Eddi suggested, availability depending on railtype etc would also be part of that i guess?
19:34:58 <zxbiohazardzx> and i know 0.0 of what that new spec would have to contain
19:35:09 <zxbiohazardzx> i just suggested something in the IRC or asked about it :P
19:35:10 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: yes, so making a spec is non-trivial, and getting agreement on them is more complicated
19:36:19 <Rhamphoryncus> .. oi, I just realized 1.2.0 has been released :P
19:36:55 <michi_cc> Rhamphoryncus: It's going to be outdated in a minute :p
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19:38:17 <zxbiohazardzx> ill keep this in mind though :P
19:38:27 <zxbiohazardzx> thx alberth&planet for answering :)
19:39:00 <Alberth> drac_boy: happy, /me has 0x28 in the RCD data file :p
19:42:32 <Alberth> Roller Coaster Data file, in my freerct project :)
19:43:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24124 /trunk/src/ (engine_type.h vehicle.cpp): -Add [FS#4658]: [NewGRF] Misc engine flag to disable breakdown smoke. (Hirundo)
19:43:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24125 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Add [FS#3705]: Drag destination highlighting to the group GUI. (sbr)
19:43:13 <Alberth> the bad news is now that I have to load that value again in my program, and I don't have code for it yet
19:43:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24126 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Feature [FS#3854]: Drag and drop support for the NewGRF list window. (Based on patch by sbr)
19:43:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24127 /trunk/src/ (16 files in 6 dirs): -Feature [FS#1497]: Allow closing airports for incoming aircraft. (Based on patch by cirdan)
19:43:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24128 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Change: Don't let vehicles break down directly after servicing.
19:43:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24129 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Feature [FS#3660]: Option to minimise signal distance when dragging over obstacles. (adf88)
19:43:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24130 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Feature(ette): [FS#2314]: Deselect 'remove' button when changing signal types in the GUI. (Alberth)
19:43:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24131 /trunk/src/ (company_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add [FS#1952]: Ctrl-Clicking to change colour of all colour schemes at once. (Roest)
19:43:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24132 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp landscape.cpp misc.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp): -Change [FS#4713]: Improve randomness of tile order in the tile loop. (monoid)
19:43:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24133 /trunk/src/ (currency.cpp currency.h lang/english.txt): -Add [FS#4984]: Lithuanian currency. (devastator)
19:43:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24134 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Configurable limits for tree planting.
19:43:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24135 /trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp: -Remove [FS#4757]: Tree drag size limit.
19:44:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24136 /trunk/src/ (14 files in 4 dirs): -Feature [FS#4465]: Autoreplace vehicles only when they get old. (Vikthor)
19:44:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24137 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Feature(ette): Draw indicator icon in the replace vehicle window for vehicles which have a replacement set.
19:44:13 <drac_boy> hmm alberth whats freerct supposed to do?
19:44:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24138 /trunk/src/ (group_cmd.cpp group_gui.cpp): -Feature(ette): Ctrl+drag to add all vehicles with a shared order list to a group. (Juanjo)
19:44:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24139 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Creating a new vehicle group by drag and drop. (Based on patch by Juanjo)
19:44:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24140 /trunk/src/ (52 files in 3 dirs): -Add [FS#1117]: Group name in the replace vehicle window caption. (Juanjo)
19:44:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24141 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Display rating in the town directory window. (Inspired by patch from MagicBuzz)
19:44:49 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24142 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Feature [FS#3576]: Randomise count of passengers killed in a crash. (riffraffselbow)
19:44:49 <Alberth> drac_boy: open source variant of a well know rollercaster tycoon program :)
19:44:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24143 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#5145]: Improve fence placement for rail. (Eddi)
19:44:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24144 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Change [FS#4605]: Reset 'convert signal' button when signal GUI is closed. (yorick)
19:45:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24145 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Cleanup: Switch coding style.
19:45:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24146 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix [FS#5153]: Use default value when reading an invalid setting value. (Eddi)
19:45:13 <drac_boy> alberth hmm what kind of system requirement?
19:45:18 <michi_cc> Rhamphoryncus: See, outdated :p
19:45:24 <Alberth> there is no stopping michi_cc, andythenorth :)
19:46:08 <michi_cc> Now I have to close all those tickets :( :p
19:46:36 <Alberth> drac_boy: currently it only builds from source, at a linux system, if you have python 2.7
19:46:59 <Alberth> michi_cc: ask TB for an automagic close-on-commit :p
19:47:43 <Alberth> drac_boy: but there is nothing moving yet :)
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19:48:03 <drac_boy> Alberth hmm so probably just as low resource more or less like the original one?
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19:48:42 <Alberth> hopefully, but I don't really design on that
19:49:06 <Alberth> first it needs to move, and get playable
19:51:03 <drac_boy> Alberth well if it'll work smoothy with a full&busy park on a P3 I don't see any problem in it hopefully catching on big time
19:51:19 <andythenorth> there's only one Alberth :)
19:51:28 <andythenorth> he needs a network effect ;)
19:52:05 <drac_boy> mind you I know I've changed computers by then but the only reason I never ever got to rct2 was because when I tried the demo I found that it always ran rather sputterly even for small parks
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19:53:36 <Alberth> andythenorth: indeed, any good in Python hacking? :p
19:53:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: ask pixa
19:54:06 <Alberth> bummer, he just left :(
20:03:49 <oskari89> michi_cc: Did those features go to 1.2.1?
20:04:31 <oskari89> They are going in 1.3x or so?
20:04:40 <michi_cc> Yes, trunk is 1.3 now.
20:05:06 <oskari89> Even more new features than that? :)
20:09:56 <Zuu> Warning: I just posted a very silly GS interface idea :-)
20:10:19 <Zuu> its in the development forum
20:10:54 <Zuu> It maybe should be moved to the AI/NoGo subforum now, but that is up to the moderators to decide.
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20:18:08 <Zuu> r24124 just killed the need for CluelessPlus to build service airports (for sending aircrafts there when upgrading airports). At least if that change included an AI api function.
20:20:12 <michi_cc> If you meant 24127, you're lucky.
20:20:53 <Zuu> Yep, I ment 24127, I was too happy to see the commit sphere to type the correct number. :-)
20:21:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24147 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r24132): AI regression output.
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20:56:50 <frosch123> Zuu: wrt. fs#5151. the crash is related to in-game switching of blitters
20:57:06 <frosch123> so, it only happens if you do not enforce a particular blitter with the -b or blitter options
20:57:52 <Zuu> hmm, so I should actually not set the blitter in openttd.cfg to the one that the crash reporter used in order to reproduce it.
20:59:39 <Zuu> assuming that 8bbp is still the default one.
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21:04:30 <FLHerne> Is that bug Windows-specific?
21:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> win64 specific, iirc
21:05:01 <Zuu> 64bit windows specific as far as we know now.
21:05:33 <Terkhen> I only managed to reproduce it with win x64
21:06:15 <FLHerne> Thought I hadn't encountered it :P
21:16:14 <drac_boy> btw is 'willing to entertain on price' right or was there a different wording I should be thinking of? its for an ad post
21:17:20 <FLHerne> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me :P
21:17:27 <supermop> hey Eddi|zuHause, does your post mean that the fence thing is in trunk?
21:17:41 <drac_boy> FLHerne heh any idea how to say that you're flexible on the price rather than the one you listed?
21:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: there's an easy way to find that out...
21:18:03 <TWerkhoven[l]> reasonable offers accepted?
21:18:10 <drac_boy> hm thanks TWerkhoven[l]
21:18:41 <FLHerne> Now [i]that[/i] makes sense to me :D
21:19:28 * FLHerne waits for someone to invent IRC with markup that works :P
21:19:41 <FLHerne> Oh, and more smilies :-)
21:19:56 <drac_boy> FLHerne nope, thats not text so not going to happen
21:20:46 <TWerkhoven[l]> it could, but parsign would have to happen clientside
21:21:05 <TWerkhoven[l]> im sure theres clients out there (java mostly) that will change smileys into graphics
21:22:14 <Rubidium> which is incredibly annoucing when you're talking about code
21:22:30 <drac_boy> Rubidium yeah theres that :p
21:22:54 <Rubidium> (or for someone that uses parenthesis)
21:23:33 <Rubidium> any 'respectible' text-to-smiley code would introduce at least two smileys there
21:24:44 <TWerkhoven[l]> no, thats just the crap version, to be called respectible it would have to filter out common parenthesis usage
21:25:13 <FLHerne> My IRC client already parses smilies :P
21:25:25 <FLHerne> Just not enough variations...
21:26:24 <FLHerne> Standardised client-side parsing of markup would actually be possible, wouldn't it?
21:26:44 <FLHerne> 'Standardised' being the issue, I guess
21:28:34 <Rubidium> the standard is pretty clear about the markup
21:28:50 <Rubidium> only everyone decides to make custom additions to that standard
21:29:35 <drac_boy> four ads posted so far
21:29:47 <drac_boy> wouldn't be surprised if I could clear all four out this week too :)
21:30:27 <FLHerne> drac_boy: four of what?
21:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause> in KDE you can configure the smilies
21:32:07 * Rubidium claims the Zzzz smiley
21:33:03 <FLHerne> It's all shiny, and widgety, and ooh, I can make that section both semi-transparent [i]and[/i] animated! :D
21:33:06 <drac_boy> FLHerne you need to read the whole line silly :p
21:33:34 <TWerkhoven[l]> dont forget the blink tag
21:33:35 <drac_boy> well you probably didn't to be asking such question :P
21:33:37 <FLHerne> Then I went off on a random tangent for no reason...
21:34:24 <FLHerne> clear all four ads out?
21:39:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24148 /trunk/src/ (currency.cpp currency.h lang/english.txt): -Add [FS#4907]: South Korean and South African currencies. (PaulC)
21:42:24 <NGC3982> how can a train like the CC 40100 achieve speeds like 240km/h?
21:42:35 <NGC3982> doesnt look that aerodynamic? :E
21:43:45 <drac_boy> actually it is...its more or less flat except on the front .. and from the sizing of the middle its probably got a lot of hp
21:44:20 <TWerkhoven[l]> aerodynamics isnt everything, though it sure helps
21:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it says 160km/h on wikipedia
21:48:31 <TWerkhoven[l]> french one sais 160/240kmh, but also 2 different kw outputs
21:49:56 <NGC3982> sure, aerodynamics isnt everything. though, i thought speeds like that required a more ..not that flat faced form.
21:50:06 <TWerkhoven[l]> maybe it depends on the line voltage, as it can draw 4 different voltages
21:51:23 <TWerkhoven[l]> anyway, bedtime for me
21:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> voltage is really only relevant for DC
21:57:14 <drac_boy> eddi actually not quite true. theres low voltage ac as well
21:57:32 <drac_boy> they're in small number tho of course
21:58:35 <drac_boy> probably ever smaller for old dual-pantograph systems too (although the london system still uses the 3rd+4th rail version of this I recall)
21:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i meant: you can draw the same amount of power in low and high voltage AC
22:00:08 <Eddi|zuHause> lower voltage may mean slightly more losses over distance
22:00:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but you need smaller security distance
22:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but in DC, you can't make the current arbitrarily high, so you only have pretty much linear dependency between voltage and power
22:02:14 <FLHerne> <(although the london system still uses the 3rd+4th rail version of this I recall)> London is DC. Maybe I misunderstood you again though...
22:06:58 <drac_boy> FLHerne some of the double panto systems were dc too mind you
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22:12:14 <NGC3982> when i get my own garden, forget the garden gnomes
22:12:22 <NGC3982> ill get a uac turbo train.
22:12:57 <drac_boy> NGC3982 heh why? you'll need a large yard for something approaching express-like speeds :)
22:14:08 <NGC3982> i dont want it running
22:14:17 <drac_boy> oh outdoor display model?
22:14:19 <NGC3982> i just want it to sit there, in its yellow glory.
22:14:38 <drac_boy> hmm so the question then would be...what kind of set makeup and in which livery then? :)
22:14:58 <NGC3982> and i feel quite serious. even though i dont know that much about trains (yet), i feel compelled to create my own museum.
22:15:09 <NGC3982> drac_boy: i have no idea.
22:16:27 <drac_boy> NGC3982 well I asked because it varied between 3-car (only one intermidate coach yeah) up to a bit over ten cars
22:17:13 <NGC3982> or at least the engine
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22:17:33 <drac_boy> thats not much of a train then :p
22:17:43 <drac_boy> especially with half of its truck missing :)
22:19:28 <drac_boy> if you really need a single-unit something, model that one modified rail speed record setting budd rdc with the two red/gray jet engines on its roof :)
22:34:28 <drac_boy> NGC3982 btw also try look up the Xplorer from C&O .. it was supposed to be 'the' next generation passenger train .. lighter and lower gravity (it was pretty much the usa version of talgo concept yeah)
22:34:53 <drac_boy> did not have a good life tho. one of the major ops was not ordering the rear locomotive unit so the tail always rode a bit harsh :-s
22:35:39 <drac_boy> a different New haven version with more conservative nose did actually have a loco at both ends..but again short life mainly from one thing - it caught fire on the press run, not so much fun :-/
22:36:29 <drac_boy> these two were the only known lightweight trainset in usa afaik
22:43:31 <drac_boy> NGC3982 you probably could still do a tgv locomotive .. they were seperated end units (from the articulated consist) anyhow
22:43:51 <drac_boy> although whether you want to do the well known electric one or the one-off gas turbine one is up to you :)
22:43:54 <drac_boy> same livery for both tho
23:12:46 <V453000> hm, how do I remove an AI company? :D
23:13:01 <V453000> ERROR: Company is owned by an AI. on reset_company :D
23:14:46 <Mazur> rcon stop_ai <company_slot>
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23:17:55 <Zuu> Don't forget to also reduce the company count in difficulty settings, if you don't want a new AI to start soon.
23:18:37 <Mazur> Or unset ai_in multiplayer
23:18:48 <Mazur> Which had already been done.
23:21:53 <Zuu> requires that you have a MP game, but I guess you do :-)
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