IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-15
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00:24:52 <xiong> NGC3982, note the caution attached to some train sets that allow a regearing refit. These may *never* "full load all"; instead, "full load any" is recommended. If you do some sort of conditional order loop, don't test for = 100%.
00:27:31 <drac_boy> hmm should bridges be part of or split from a track set?
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00:45:08 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: I'd say split, particularly if you can make them work with different track sets
00:56:49 <drac_boy> if theres one thing I sometimes hate about following train specs..its that some sources don't get it right and you didn't know because you didn't have a second source to check :/
00:57:25 <drac_boy> how can one 10-cars emu carry 1564 passengers while another one only carries 349
00:57:41 <drac_boy> heh oh well guess thats normal for some grf peope
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04:42:00 <xiong> andythenorth, defined the issue. Not a bug, perhaps.
04:43:08 <xiong> I tend to run "pigs" to distribute rare cargoes. These are small-cap vehicles that load and unload at the same station. So cargo is transferred but not delivered by the big train; then delivered by the pig.
04:44:27 <xiong> The classic case is es/fs but I've done similar things in order to slop multiple cargoes around and get max production. So for the yard, lumber and chem. In this case, chem is the "additive", in the sense that I may not have enough to go around; so I might ration it out with a pig.
04:45:19 <xiong> In the case I talked about here in #openttd, it so happened that I got the pig up and running before regular bulk deliveries of lumber; so that's why I noticed the unexpected behavior -- the lack of production.
04:46:22 <andythenorth> apart from possible limitation with non-float maths, that case should be allowed for
04:46:32 <andythenorth> i.e. small deliveries
04:46:34 <xiong> So here it is: The pig drops, say, 12,000 liters of chem; that works out to 3 crates of es/bm combined. How that splits up I don't know; but the yard produces a small quantity of both on the *third* pig.
04:46:57 <andythenorth> that sounds more correct
04:47:18 <xiong> So I infer some fixed-point math and the stuff to the right of the decimal properly accounted for.
04:47:36 <andythenorth> I believe it's stockpiling internally until small amounts of cargo can be validly converted to output
04:47:57 <andythenorth> I didn't write this code, but that was our design
04:48:26 <xiong> In the case I discussed here, my pig was even smaller, a horse-drawn tanker; so it might have taken many more loops for an integer number of crates to be produced. By that time, of course, I had the lumber coming in.
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04:49:55 <xiong> So, I'd say, andythenorth, that is not a bug.
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05:07:45 <xiong> Um, I have to say, you know, I thought of this at the time. But in the above example, I expect at least 1 crate of each on the second pig; not 4 crates of each on the third.
05:08:07 <xiong> That's with a station rating of 69%. Doesn't quite work out.
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05:21:33 <andythenorth> xiong: could be that the maths needs improvement
05:30:55 <andythenorth> hi orudge - FIRS release thread first post appears to be non-editable for me :o :)
05:39:19 <xiong> I wouldn't go that far, andythenorth -- unless the issue crops up on a larger scale somewhere else.
05:40:32 <andythenorth> could simply be the 'minimum distributed amount'
05:41:22 <andythenorth> min cargo distr: 5
05:42:57 <andythenorth> xiong: but this caused a bug report....because it's non-obvious what the mechanism is?
05:43:11 <andythenorth> could be a bug in explanation
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05:47:38 <xiong> I don't know where you'd begin, to establish the correct "tooth" or "feel". That's gamewide. Player should get appropriate feedback but that's difficult in an integer world.
05:49:07 <xiong> I might find it useful to have some sort of binary indication, a little green light representing "not zero". That tells me that the industry is operating at a low level. But others would ask, "What's that little green dot?"
05:49:41 <xiong> I'd rather have any number of other features.
06:31:34 <andythenorth> how to prove you're a pikka?
06:31:41 <andythenorth> and not a turing machine?
06:32:07 <Pikka> turing machines don't do things like
06:35:08 <andythenorth> I've never knowingly met a turing machine
06:35:45 <Pikka> I once met turing's other machine
06:35:51 <andythenorth> hmm....you won't like my suggestion for 'solving' player-changed-grfs-in-game issue :p
06:35:51 <Pikka> it makes pretty good sandwiches
06:36:21 <andythenorth> turn them all off
06:36:41 <andythenorth> no more requests for 'please can I change grfs'
06:36:46 <andythenorth> no more pissy discussions :P
06:36:55 <andythenorth> last point probably won't work actually
06:38:04 <andythenorth> 7 downloads for FIRS
06:38:09 <andythenorth> that could have been $14 :P
06:39:29 <andythenorth> I got motivated :P
06:43:26 <andythenorth> one of the bugs was in nml
06:43:36 <andythenorth> someone else sent a patch for the other one
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06:58:25 <andythenorth> I should make the station overlay sprites larger?
06:58:51 <Pikka> may cause problems with olde-worlde-tracks
06:59:38 <andythenorth> probably would need special case
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07:07:47 <andythenorth> bit funky with original tracks
07:14:28 <andythenorth> you pesky grf authors
07:14:34 <andythenorth> and your innovations :/
07:16:03 <andythenorth> could overlay another child sprite, but I don't know how to do that conditionally
07:16:19 <andythenorth> nor how to check for other grfs, whose grfids might change :P
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07:26:30 <andythenorth> the station spec will never really quite work with railtypes
07:27:14 <Terkhen> we need a completely new NewGRF implementation & specs :P
07:27:51 <Terkhen> we could do it in xml, as most people hate it
07:28:23 <andythenorth> some of BANDIT is xml
07:29:45 <andythenorth> it's not the expected parts :P
07:29:59 <andythenorth> the templating language is declared in an xml format :P
07:30:28 <andythenorth> so the station spec basically demands that for railtype support...
07:30:34 <andythenorth> ...station authors need to
07:30:47 <andythenorth> (1) have knowledge of every railtype set
07:30:59 <andythenorth> (2) copy the rail sprites from those sets into the station grf
07:31:24 <andythenorth> otherwise railtype support is 'nil points'
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08:43:38 <Alberth> hihi, jummy, bananas-shaken FIRS 0.7.2. Congrats andy
08:44:10 <andythenorth> mostly foobar not me
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08:50:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24116 /branches/1.2/ (8 files in 5 dirs):
08:50:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
08:50:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: When starting GS or AI, always use the settings of the game, not the new-game settings [FS#5142] (r24108)
08:50:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Provide translated comments in the desktop file without language name postfix (r24100)
08:50:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Cloning orders of aircraft with limited range failed [FS#5131] (r24086)
08:56:43 <telanus> who ever did the Afrikaans translation, really need to go ask their school fees back
08:59:36 <Alberth> that's why it is better to have several translators for a language; together you know more, and can you can discuss and fix each others mistakes
09:00:27 <__ln__> or together you mess up more
09:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "viele Köche verderben den Brei"
09:00:59 <TinoDidriksen> A collective mess-up is much rarer for translation tasks.
09:02:31 <__ln__> many translators is only good when they are communicating with each other and working systematically, e.g. by creating a list of how to translate certain words.
09:03:16 <__ln__> but with OTTD, you don't even know who the other translators are.
09:03:37 <Alberth> unless you start a translation topic in the forum :p
09:04:08 <__ln__> which the others are by no means required to read or even know about.
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09:20:53 <telanus> Afrikaans translation sometimes read like a google translated text string. Miost problems I get is that wrong words for the meaning of a certain is used, Spelling errors, and the most common is syntax problems
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09:45:47 <heffer> title reads: [abrt] openttd-1.2.0-0.1.RC4.fc17: __GI_raise: Process /usr/bin/openttd was killed by signal 6 (SIGABRT)
09:46:30 <heffer> i can't really tell what's going on there and i also can't reproduce this locally
09:49:43 <Alberth> ShowErrorMessage (summary_msg=1127, detailed_msg=1129 would seem to be what it was doing
09:50:51 <Alberth> buf = "String 0x467 is invalid. You are probably using an old version of the .lng file. would that be this message?
09:53:16 <Alberth> so it tried to output an error, but it had no string 1127, and telling that crashed the program for some reason, it seems
09:53:43 <heffer> that's weird. wouldn't the lng file be contained in the release itself?
09:54:13 <heffer> yes it is in the rpm and would be overwritten in case the user updated openttd
09:57:00 <heffer> so i assume an old lng file was bundled with the 1.2.0-RC4 release which for some reason crashes openttd
09:59:49 <Rubidium> heffer: bundled with the 1.2.0-RC4 release in what way?
10:01:25 <heffer> Rubidium: as in being contained in the openttd-1.2.0-RC4-source.tar.xz
10:01:36 <Rubidium> that's pretty unlikely
10:01:54 <heffer> so maybe the root cause is somewhere else then?
10:02:14 <Rubidium> as the lng files are not supposed to be in the svn repository
10:02:15 <heffer> shall i ask the user to upload his .openttd directory if there seems to be an error in the configuration?
10:03:06 <Rubidium> there's no file with lng in the filename in the source tarball
10:03:23 <heffer> you're right, i was getting this wrong
10:03:40 <heffer> they are created in the build process that is :D
10:04:16 <heffer> okay but what was build is what came with the source tarball
10:04:23 <frosch123> str = 0xd480c0 "SHOW_TOWN_NAMES|SHOW_STATION_NAMES|SHOW_SIGNS|FULL_ANIMATION|TRANS_BUILDINGS|FULL_DETAIL|WAYPOINTS" <- that means the user was using ottd <= 0.5.x before
10:04:41 <frosch123> was that ever bundles with your distro? or was it a manual installation of the user?
10:04:53 <heffer> okay so basically he is trying to re-use his config dir from an ancient version
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10:05:41 <heffer> no we started with shipping 0.6.3
10:06:23 <frosch123> so, he has a config file from 0.5.x, then maybe he also has some lng files from 0.5.x somewhere, which 1.2 finds instead of its own
10:06:49 <heffer> so basically this is prety much a corner case and i just ask the user to move his .openttd dir
10:07:13 <frosch123> the config file is not the problem
10:07:24 <heffer> the lng files he might have in .openttd are?
10:07:25 <frosch123> the problem is that he has some invalid mixed installation of 1.2 and 0.5
10:07:53 <heffer> i'll ask him if that is the case
10:08:04 <heffer> thanks guys. you are, as always, the best :D
10:08:07 <Rubidium> I'd like the openttd crash log of that crash
10:08:24 <heffer> okay i'll ask him to provide me with that
10:08:37 <Rubidium> primarily because that tells us which language is used (and probably with a path)
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10:11:27 <heffer> okay i asked him to provide me with that file
10:13:25 <heffer> i'll get back to you as soon as i have more info from him
10:15:35 <heffer> what i like most about openttd as upstream is that bugs are fixed no matter how much of a corner case they are :D
10:16:07 <heffer> other upstreams just say: have that guy remove his broken installation and start off fresh :D
10:17:01 <drac_boy> heffer well I would had actually suggested that but then mm
10:22:48 <heffer> drac_boy: i had something similar happen before. i don't exactly remember what it was, but in the end a check was introduced to prevent this from crashing openttd
10:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause> bäh... filthy keyboard is filthy
10:25:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler recently had a case of "wrong language packs", and nobody could really figure out what it was
10:34:42 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 68719476736
10:35:00 <frosch123> what's so special about that number?
10:36:39 <frosch123> andy's paper says the pdb-10 had 36 bit words
10:36:45 <frosch123> maybe it is a typo :p
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10:46:01 <Pikka> "just long enough to represent positive and negative integers to an accuracy of ten decimal digits" is the reasoning, apparently.
10:46:43 <frosch123> yeah, i considered that when doing the above computation, but i forgot the signedness
10:47:51 <andythenorth> worth mentioning that the paper is written under a false name by Richard P Gabriel
10:47:51 <Pikka> they don't make computers like the PDP-10 any more :)
10:48:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: is that the author of the paper benig discussed?
10:48:39 <andythenorth> he invented a false name to critique his own paper
10:54:04 <andythenorth> oskari89: what length?
10:54:11 <andythenorth> I have tanks in 3/8 and 5/8
10:56:01 <heffer> seems to support what you were saying :D
10:57:52 <Rubidium> it tries to draw/resolve a string before it has loaded a language at all
10:57:53 <oskari89> andythenorth: Let's see...
10:58:23 <andythenorth> oskari89: I can generate other lengths too
10:58:35 <andythenorth> and I have 1CC, 2CC, and black
11:00:42 <oskari89> Could you do that 20' eurotainer :)
11:01:27 <oskari89> With markings as in that eurotainer.com link?
11:02:50 <oskari89> That would help me and other set's devs too :)
11:03:26 <andythenorth> I can do a white tube
11:03:48 <oskari89> Do a white tube, i'll modify that :)
11:03:51 <andythenorth> I do want to do generate containers but today is a day for chores
11:04:14 <Rubidium> heffer: it's going to be quite a bitch to solve that issue nicely
11:04:14 <oskari89> I'll check, just a minute.
11:05:37 <heffer> if i interpreted it correctly the user says that this even happens if he has ottd create a completely new config dir
11:06:43 <oskari89> Andythenorth: 1px longer, other than that, good :)
11:07:18 <Rubidium> heffer: the problem is that there's something wrong in the configuration it's loading
11:07:21 <andythenorth> it comes in 4px increments
11:07:29 <andythenorth> to match vehicle lengths
11:07:47 <Rubidium> the configuration is loaded in two steps; one that loads the part with the blitter, video driver, language configuration and one with the many many other settings
11:08:12 <heffer> Rubidium: and will this only occur if it's not a fresh install?
11:08:27 <heffer> because i can't reproduce this on a fresh test VM
11:08:44 <andythenorth> oskari89 the stripe colour can be changed or made white
11:09:10 <Rubidium> during the first step a failure is found and it tries to show an error message; all goes well as the error message will be shown once the video driver is loaded. However... if the error is marked 'critical' it's also drawn to the console and there it tries to resolve the string of the error message
11:09:41 <Rubidium> ... but it hasn't finished loading the part of the settings with the message, so it has no language loaded and it bails out nastily
11:10:07 <Rubidium> having said that: if there's no openttd.cfg found by OpenTTD it will not happen
11:10:41 <Rubidium> if there is an openttd.cfg found by OpenTTD it can happen if the misc section contains broken settings
11:11:23 <Rubidium> easiest to reproduce is messing with the display opt setting
11:12:03 <oskari89> andythenorth: What should be 20' and 40 container length in TTD-scale?
11:12:04 <heffer> yeah that breaks it :D
11:12:19 <andythenorth> oskari89: maybe 4/8
11:12:25 <andythenorth> depends on your sense of scale I guess
11:12:46 <andythenorth> I can do 4/8 if you like
11:15:55 <drac_boy> I guess you'll need a different scale for containers on ukrs2 flatcars I imagine
11:21:01 <oskari89> It seems that the right answer would be 3/8.
11:22:01 <andythenorth> you could hack the BANDIT files if you check them out
11:22:09 <andythenorth> but if you only need a few containers...
11:22:09 <oskari89> 40" container... 4/8..
11:22:26 <oskari89> Yes, with variations :P
11:22:37 <oskari89> I'm thinking a little.
11:22:41 <andythenorth> ...hacking has a setup time
11:22:50 <andythenorth> pixa generator can be taught to draw containers
11:23:33 <Rubidium> heffer: I made FS#5154
11:24:34 <heffer> Rubidium: great. i'll note that in our bugzilla as well
11:24:40 <Rubidium> it won't make 1.2.0 though
11:27:43 * NGC3982 needs a tip on new trainset grfs
11:28:38 <drac_boy> NGC3982 what kind? :)
11:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> bäh... clean keyboard is still filthy
11:29:08 <Pikka> eddi: you have to pull all the keys off to clean it properly
11:29:32 <NGC3982> drac_boy: any kind! im just fooling around, and i want to try something new.
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11:30:02 <Zuu> Hmm, is there no BOOL_SETTING flag for NewGRFs to set on settings that can only be on/off? Like for AIs you can tell OpenTTD that a setting is boolean and it will display a toggle button instead of arrow buttons.
11:30:23 <Pikka> for newgrf parameters, I assume you mean
11:30:38 <Zuu> Yep, then this NewGRF I was looking at didn't make use of it.
11:31:58 <Zuu> "8/32bpp Trains 2CC" - trying to reproduce FS#5151
11:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i did that. and washed each one individually
11:32:33 <Pikka> must've been pretty dirty then, eddi
11:32:45 <Pikka> I usually chuck em in a bucket with washing up liquid
11:33:06 <Pikka> I say "usually", I've done that once :)
11:33:16 <Pikka> but I should really do it again
11:33:26 <Pikka> this keyboard doesn't bear looking at too closely
11:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> now: puzzle time :)
11:34:18 <drac_boy> NGC3982 well have you tried the finnish set btw?
11:34:55 <oskari89> Ah, is there someone wanting to draw?
11:35:04 <Pikka> backspace and left arrow are the tricky ones
11:35:13 <Pikka> different shape, same marking
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11:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause> backspace is double sized
11:36:53 <heffer> while i'm at it: is anybody here who can help me with my openttd account? i can't retrieve my password because it says "Unknown username / email combination.". But when I try to register both e-mail and username are already in use.
11:37:06 <heffer> looks like i severely messed up what my username was in the first place :D
11:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> incidentally, that was the first key i placed
11:37:42 <heffer> my email address is heffer@fedoraproject.org
11:37:49 <heffer> username should be heffer as well
11:38:50 <NGC3982> drac_boy: dont think so. ill try it out :)
11:38:54 <Rubidium> looks like you once tried but never validated it
11:39:45 <Rubidium> heffer: try registering again
11:41:28 <heffer> oh okay. now it tells me to merge my account, but also that my account was already merged :D
11:41:52 <heffer> only for the bugs.openttd.org system. i didn't have any account on wiki or bananas.
11:41:52 <Rubidium> let me trash that bit as well then
11:42:04 <Rubidium> you know the old password?
11:43:53 <Zuu> Rubidium: Did you have an idea what FS#5151 was due to? Or did you just post some information extracted from the dmp file? (I've tried to reproduce it but didn't succed, perhaps it is something related to his video driver/card?)
11:44:19 <heffer> Rubidium: worked :D thanks
11:44:24 <Rubidium> Zuu: I have no clue, I just posted stuff from the dmp file. I can't reproduce it
11:44:36 <Rubidium> Zuu: nor could any other dev that tried
11:49:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24117 /branches/1.2/ (7 files in 5 dirs): [1.2] -Update: some documentation
11:53:49 <NGC3982> take a look a the coal mine setup.
11:54:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24118 /tags/1.2.0/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Release: 1.2.0
11:54:23 <NGC3982> what (in the general opinion) is the best way to use as few trains as possible, but still obtain decent rating?
11:54:42 <NGC3982> i tried to accomplish a two train load loop (~50% at each station).
11:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting, i don't even have leftover parts :p
11:54:47 <NGC3982> but that didnt really help me
11:55:36 <Zuu> NGC3982: a train at each station that loads and then move coal a few tiles to a transfer station. Then have one larger train going to the transfer stations and bringing coal to the powerplant?
11:55:56 <Rubidium> heffer/blathijs/Ammler: in ~40 minutes 1.2.0's tarballs will be on the mirrors
11:56:08 <NGC3982> Zuu: i see. ill try it :).
11:56:20 <Zuu> Coal waiting at the transfer stations (that have to be out of range of the coal mines) will not impact the industry rating.
11:57:01 <Zuu> Feeding can also easily be done using trucks that has the benefit of cheaper having a vehicle always loading.
11:57:47 <oskari89> Seems that 1.2.0 is released today? :)
12:01:02 <NGC3982> Zuu: i guess using trucks from the industry to the feeding station will increase rating a bit more, i guess.
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12:04:03 <drac_boy> kinda need to go for a while -_-
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12:09:47 <andythenorth> apparently macbooks survive being dropped
12:10:08 <frosch123> one try might not be representative
12:10:21 <andythenorth> I've tried before
12:10:31 <andythenorth> I'd say it's about 50:50
12:10:45 <andythenorth> I dropped one down the stairs - survived
12:10:54 <andythenorth> dropped another off a table - less good
12:11:16 <frosch123> hmm, maybe wood table and stone stairs?
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12:12:02 <andythenorth> insurance that covers 'I screwed up' probably doesn't extend to 'I tested how breakable it is'
12:12:14 <andythenorth> there is now a lot of disk noise
12:12:18 <andythenorth> this may be a bad sign :
12:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> my mouse dropped 3m free fall onto wood, survived...
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12:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, i dropped it on the stairs, it fell between the stairs, and it dropped to the other stairs one level lower
12:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and then it disappeared into the furthest corner it could find
12:14:04 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: can you try the same with the cats?
12:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't usually submit to free fall :p
12:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a medical survey once, of cat's injuries correlating with the height they dropped from
12:15:19 <frosch123> oskari89: what weird site mixes ft and m in one sentence?
12:15:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it turned out that the injuries got worse up to the 5th level
12:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and from around 7th level and above, there were virtually no injuries anymore
12:16:13 <andythenorth> oskari89: it's an open top container
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12:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> because apparently cats have a builtin parachute mode, that kicks in around that height
12:16:52 <SpComb> sounds like destructive testing
12:17:05 <SpComb> dropping cas out of building windows to see what happens
12:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that's what they did :p
12:18:06 <oskari89> They need retexturing, but dimensions are puurrrfect.
12:18:25 <andythenorth> can't change them today
12:18:35 <andythenorth> but changing the colours is easy
12:19:32 <oskari89> I think that on that sheet, there's XS and XXL :P
12:19:41 <oskari89> The - direction is XXL..
12:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: all directions are the same length
12:20:12 <oskari89> Yes, but it looks like there's different sizes :P
12:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: that's an optical illusion
12:22:24 <oskari89> Length of 3271 mm, that's about 3 feet :P
12:22:56 <Rhamphoryncus> There's some place in the world where they regular drop cats out of windows. Saw it on tv so it must be true :P
12:23:47 <Rhamphoryncus> I would guess that at 7th and above they've stabilized their orientation and maximized drag
12:28:28 <oskari89> There's a slight conflict in TTD scaling of containers...
12:28:49 <oskari89> 4/8 would be 40' container..
12:29:08 <oskari89> But then, 20' would be 2/8 :P
12:29:29 <Alberth> oskari89: everything is an optical illusion :p
12:30:15 <Terkhen> there is a huge conflict in the scaling of TTD everything :P
12:30:41 <Alberth> Terkhen: nah, reality is wrong :p
12:30:47 <oskari89> Yes, there should be 40 px wagons :P
12:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> in my set, 4lu would be 8m
12:31:03 <Terkhen> that too, but reality is usually right with scaling
12:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that makes 26 feet, according to google
12:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so your 20' container would be 3lu
12:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (aka 3/8 of an original vehicle)
12:33:05 <oskari89> Yes, but then it looks ridiculous next to 4/8 40' container :P
12:33:35 <oskari89> When there's 32 px flat where you can fit 2 40' containers.
12:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that one would be 6lu, if you wanted to have a consistent scale, obviously
12:34:35 <oskari89> And there's shorter one, 20 metres long, which is 26 px long..
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12:37:50 <NGC3982> i fail to turn inflation of with my console
12:38:18 <NGC3982> set noinflation = true/setting noinflation = true/noinflation = true
12:38:21 <NGC3982> what am i missing? :)
12:38:38 <Alberth> the advanced settings window :p
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12:39:13 <NGC3982> im playing on a network game, and the only way i have of setting the inflation is in the dedicated server command window.
12:41:09 <Alberth> did you check that the variable exists?
12:42:04 <NGC3982> though, i managed to find it according to version.
12:42:05 <Alberth> never trust a wiki page, check in the online help :)
12:42:23 <NGC3982> i though that was the online help ;_;
12:49:53 <oskari89> Seems that 20' containers are best to be compromised to 10 px length, between 3 and 4/8 :P
12:49:53 <oskari89> And 40' containers remain on that 4/8 :P
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12:53:15 <andythenorth> a 40' container in BANDIT would be closer to 6/8 probably
12:53:42 <oskari89> Well, but then you can't fit two of those in 32 px wagon :P
12:53:55 <oskari89> Like you can do in reality :P
12:55:22 <andythenorth> 2 40' containers is long
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12:56:41 <andythenorth> two 40' would be long
12:56:55 <andythenorth> 60' seems a more common length for container cars
12:58:16 <oskari89> The shorter version Vof is 60' long flat wagon :P
12:59:30 <andythenorth> approx 2' per pixel is about the closes you want to get to an actual scale
13:00:05 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.2.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only"
13:00:42 <andythenorth> now loads of new features can be worked on :D
13:01:13 <frosch123> TrueBrain: wrong question to the wrong guy
13:01:23 * andythenorth only has one request atm
13:01:27 <oskari89> Signals on bridges :)
13:01:31 <andythenorth> seriously, only one request
13:02:12 <andythenorth> it was nice to hold back 1.2.0 until after the FIRS release
13:02:33 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: for you, always
13:02:51 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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13:03:00 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
13:03:13 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
13:03:23 <andythenorth> ....lacks smoke ;)
13:03:58 <oskari89> What is next "trunk-going" major feature by the way?
13:04:10 <TrueBrain> tempted to say: your mom
13:04:16 <TrueBrain> but not sure if this channel is up for those jokes
13:04:28 <andythenorth> as long as it doesn't become #tycoon :P
13:04:49 <planetmaker> oskari89, depends on what gets written
13:05:28 <frosch123> i would think the next change to trunk is quite likely a update to the afrikaans translation
13:05:40 <TrueBrain> 5 hours to proof it wrong
13:06:06 <frosch123> TrueBrain: breaking wt3 is unfair
13:06:14 <TrueBrain> that is why you have 5 hours
13:07:35 <frosch123> i like how the miners in widelands eat bigmacs
13:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> an important feature missing from widelands is distributing the experienced workers
13:08:15 <andythenorth> so...biggest problem with a 'proper' newgrf smoke spec:
13:08:20 <andythenorth> - when to trigger the cb
13:08:26 <andythenorth> some of you will want every fricking tick :P
13:08:31 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: works since about a year
13:09:02 <frosch123> i am playing with a bzr checkout due to that reason :)
13:09:21 <frosch123> alternatively play atlanteans
13:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i mean evicting an experienced worker from an existing mine, so he goes to another mine that needs a worker
13:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> without tearing down the mine in the process
13:10:16 <andythenorth> also vehicles are going to need storage, or an EV counter, per EV
13:10:24 <andythenorth> or a cb fired by the EV
13:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: apparently "they have a patch for that", for two years already...
13:11:15 <TrueBrain> sounds like peter :D
13:11:29 <andythenorth> currently all I have to do is set a prop and ottd handles all EV stuff
13:11:47 <andythenorth> ottd also handles all the calculations wrt acceleration, etc
13:11:59 <andythenorth> moving that into each newgrf is not hard I guess
13:12:16 <andythenorth> newgrf will also need to access the advanced setting for smoke amount
13:12:38 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's normal; it is probably not up to the coding style
13:12:52 <andythenorth> and in the context of, e.g. sparks, or other effects, how should the advanced setting be interpreted?
13:13:17 <oskari89> When i'm opening 1.2.0 installer (Win 64-bit) the installer shows "Wecome to the OpenTTD 1.2.0${APPV_EXTRA} 64-bit for Windows (etc...)
13:13:43 <oskari89> What's that ${APPV_EXTRA} ?
13:17:40 <frosch123> oskari89: it's something which you cannot test with a rc release :p
13:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> release a 1.2.0.1!! :)
13:19:14 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, it's a testcase of how many will actually notice it
13:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> emergency-fix: installer version display
13:19:22 <V453000> remember to eat something XD
13:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: did you play civ4 recently? :p
13:19:52 <V453000> no I never played that ever
13:20:29 <NGC3982> oh god yes, civilization
13:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it has "get some snacks" (or similar) as one of the "tips" :)
13:20:45 <NGC3982> the only game that might compete with this one.
13:21:44 <V453000> well once when my girlfiend was on a 2day trip, I went to a store, bought a bread, and played openttd 2 days stright, only with bread and drinks
13:22:14 <V453000> resulted in 2666 trains game :P
13:22:54 * NGC3982 usually eats more when playing.
13:25:26 <Zuu> hehe, I've sometimes had my lunch at 9 pm or so due to playing OpenTTD. :-)
13:36:40 <planetmaker> Ammler, KenjiE20 we have a twitter plugin for supybot... is that available somehow?
13:37:04 <KenjiE20> yes, is mine, called supytweet, is on sf
13:37:21 <planetmaker> got a link. We might want it for openttd, too
13:38:40 <Mazur> Zuu? 9:00 pm? Try 9:00 AM.
13:39:44 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, would that plugin make then sense for Dorpsgek?
13:40:04 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: depends on you guys :D
13:40:23 <planetmaker> you mean whether it'll get used?
13:40:31 <TrueBrain> or if you want to do what glx suggested
13:40:49 <planetmaker> probably missed that..
13:41:05 <planetmaker> but tweeting the whole news doesn't work really
13:41:18 <TrueBrain> talking in 2 channels at once; I love it :D
13:44:54 <Mazur> Especially when one is a private chat with a frisky woman.....
13:51:13 <Zuu> Mazur: I can't recall being up that long. 5-6 am, I know but 9 am I can't remember.
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13:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: odds are that it's a guy anyway...
13:58:16 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: the hint in civ4 was "Snacks are good in moderation" IIRC
13:58:37 <Terkhen> just in case someone spends a night or two playing and eating snacks, I guess
14:06:48 <__ln__> anyway, congrats to the new german/finnish F1 winner
14:07:44 <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause, odds on, yes, but I had my ways of finding out, and I've met several afterwards at IRC parties. Most definately women. :-)
14:08:41 <Rhamphoryncus> I find "all the women on the internet are really men" reflects more on the speaker than on men pretending to be women
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14:17:07 <TrueBrain> who uses finger.openttd.org/versions.txt? Anyone any clue? :P
14:19:32 <TrueBrain> I want to extend the format with 1 column
14:19:36 <TrueBrain> would that hurt your tool(s)?
14:20:12 <Zuu> I don't think so, I'll take a look. (it is only one pice of php code that reads it)
14:20:47 <TrueBrain> good; I want to extend it with a human readable column
14:20:55 <TrueBrain> so I can be a bit more verbose in what a verison is about :P
14:21:45 <TrueBrain> I just noticed I cant do that
14:21:50 <TrueBrain> our own tools would break horribly :(
14:23:20 <TrueBrain> I need another solution :(
14:23:44 <TrueBrain> tempted to reply with: @kick heffer ftw
14:24:44 <Zuu> The OTTDAU server code uses explode(..) and then refering to the columns by index. So an additional column at the end shouldn't break anything there.
14:24:48 <heffer> seems you have a strong aversion to xml
14:25:07 <TrueBrain> I have a strong issue with users calling random terms because it is a buzz-word
14:25:11 <TrueBrain> it is not helping anyone
14:25:32 <TrueBrain> Zuu: good to know; I will see if I can modify our tools; will let you know if I do change anything :)
14:25:49 <frosch123> TrueBrain: those terms are quite useful to stop a discussion with non-technicans
14:26:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: or more the issue, they are often yelled by non-techies :)
14:26:19 <frosch123> if they ask how the ouput will look like, answering "we just use xml" solves the conversation quite fast
14:26:51 <heffer> next time tell them you use the latest version of ASCII
14:26:56 * drac_boy would had just mentioned ps instead
14:27:05 <TrueBrain> heffer: now that would be a good joke, yes
14:27:24 <Rubidium> especially as it's rarely *comma* separated
14:27:32 <frosch123> oh, i was already asked at work how to transcode ascii into uf8
14:27:53 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I hope you suggested a 100 line script to do that
14:28:10 <TrueBrain> or refered to the ID 10-T form?
14:28:42 <heffer> and then asked them if all their systems were capable of reading ANSI X3.4-1968
14:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: odds are they meant the local 8bit extension codepage they use (probably 1252)
14:29:31 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, i asked back whether there are umlauts etc
14:29:49 <andythenorth> xml is still a buzz word? I thought that moment had passed some while back :o
14:30:01 <heffer> now everyone wants json
14:30:11 <andythenorth> json is a valid buzzword
14:30:15 <heffer> it's the new xml, without the bloat :D
14:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly. it's actually _readable_!
14:30:28 <andythenorth> looks like objects to me :P
14:30:35 <heffer> even Ajax is out. it's REST nowadays
14:30:49 <TrueBrain> REST is an URL schema ..
14:30:49 <planetmaker> oh, hi, heffer. Just to tell you: OpenGFX 0.4.4 has a new build target clean-gfx. Use that, if you want to build the pngs from scratch. maintainer-clean will screw your md5 verify check
14:31:07 * andythenorth has accidentally diverted TrueBrain from doing useful things :P
14:31:22 <TrueBrain> you do understand that right?
14:31:23 <heffer> TrueBrain: tell that to the buzzword buzzers
14:31:33 <andythenorth> truebrain good time to mention a bananas rewrite?
14:31:44 <heffer> planetmaker: thanks for the info
14:32:24 <Zuu> TrueBrain: I get an asian character
14:32:36 <TrueBrain> Zuu: and you dont think that is intentional?
14:33:10 <andythenorth> something changed :P
14:33:14 <__ln__> what's wrong with asian characters? lieutenant Sulu was ok in my opinion.
14:33:18 <heffer> openttd website lvl: asian
14:33:23 <Zuu> But, I don't read any asaian language, so I can't say if it is a correct one or not. But it looks good.
14:33:25 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: among others
14:33:41 <TrueBrain> Zuu: it was to show UTF-8 is handled correctly ;)
14:33:48 <Zuu> Oh, and there is a new menu at the top :-)
14:33:48 <andythenorth> what's the site written in btw?
14:33:55 <TrueBrain> Python, using Django framework
14:34:08 <TrueBrain> and that is the second major change Zuu ;)
14:34:29 <Zuu> How many more are there to find?
14:34:32 <NGC3982> i feel almost compelled to learn the specific language and the basis of emulation, just to help this god damned community make a fantastic android version on openttd.
14:34:36 <heffer> looks like i don't have the corrent fonts installed. i see the UTF-8 placeholder
14:34:47 <NGC3982> i had this dream about playing it smoothly on a galaxy tab.
14:34:56 <TrueBrain> heffer: you are not hte only one; I seem to have picked an UTF-8 char that is uncommon :P
14:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: just odd that the menu bar disappears when you click "online content" or "translator" :p
14:35:04 <TrueBrain> I also have no clue how I got it, asI just randomly picked on :P
14:35:14 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: is it really?
14:35:19 <heffer> usually my system should prompt me to install the correct font
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14:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: it stays when you click server
14:35:29 <andythenorth> the current menu from bananas will become secondary nav too?
14:35:35 <frosch123> hmm, X decided to restart :s
14:36:02 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and still you dont see what changes when you click those links? :)
14:36:05 * andythenorth would help with bananas if there was any way to test it
14:36:13 <TrueBrain> in due time andythenorth
14:36:14 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i didn't say it's wrong
14:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i said it's odd
14:36:30 * andythenorth would help with the website if he knew how
14:36:37 <Zuu> TrueBrain: The servers page got an update?
14:36:44 * andythenorth is completely unscared of python web frameworks
14:36:44 <TrueBrain> Zuu: does it show? :P
14:36:51 <heffer> it's a fun hack to do. just copy paste an uncommon utf char into irc and all users that have PackageKit font installer enabled will be prompted to install a font
14:37:43 <andythenorth> I can edit the site
14:37:50 <andythenorth> I don't know how to get a local test instance running
14:38:16 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: of the current BaNaNaS, nobody knows :D
14:38:31 <andythenorth> that's why my rewrite got stalled :P
14:38:42 <TrueBrain> its not a rewrite then :P
14:38:44 <andythenorth> and starting from scratch with no clue was a bit much
14:38:44 <Zuu> TrueBrain: I can see it, so I guess it shows. Nice filtering feature.
14:39:03 <TrueBrain> tnx; Xaroth_'s work :P
14:39:44 <FLHerne> How do I get back to the main page from BaNaNaS pages?
14:39:59 <TrueBrain> by typing in the URL :D
14:40:22 <andythenorth> the logo goes to bananas in that context
14:40:29 <andythenorth> is the logo href /
14:40:39 <FLHerne> Is the top menu-bar thing supposed to exist everywhere?
14:40:54 <andythenorth> appears to be /[lang]
14:41:29 * andythenorth looks for an equivalent of standard_template or such
14:42:03 <andythenorth> django syntax is cute
14:42:14 <Zuu> Nice that the average number of clients per server is written at the top as a reminder to anyone wanting to start a server. :-)
14:42:57 <andythenorth> so the openttd logo should always go to main site imo
14:43:08 <andythenorth> but I guess it does have some nice bananas on it :P
14:43:10 <frosch123> only a single server is running stable :p
14:43:28 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I disagree; but that is mostly because they ae in their own subdomain
14:43:40 <andythenorth> btw it's been bugging me for months that the logo background is broken
14:43:51 <TrueBrain> one of the first things I fixed :P
14:43:59 <TrueBrain> off by one is a biatch
14:44:19 <FLHerne> On current and www-test sites, the smaller text for the right-hand buttons is rendered over the icons for me
14:44:30 <TrueBrain> screenshot or it didnt happen
14:44:32 <Zuu> I never noticed the logo background issue, but now I will. :-)
14:44:34 <TrueBrain> and ofc browser + OS
14:44:38 <FLHerne> I assume this should be to their right, below the large text?
14:44:40 <TrueBrain> Zuu: MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :P
14:44:47 <andythenorth> FLHerne: you have IE 7 or 8
14:44:56 <andythenorth> if you have IE 6 you should leave now
14:45:08 <TrueBrain> tbh, if you have IE, you should leave now :D :P
14:45:24 <TrueBrain> that said, openttd.org renders fine on IE5.5 even; only issue is with Safari
14:45:25 <andythenorth> only if you're centralised corporate IT policy allows you to leave :P
14:45:27 <TrueBrain> which is unsolvable
14:45:29 <FLHerne> No, Opera 11.62, Linux version :P
14:45:38 <TrueBrain> forgot people still use it
14:45:40 <andythenorth> what's the safari issue?
14:45:45 <TrueBrain> Opera has a bug in how they handle something
14:45:53 <TrueBrain> 100% against w3c, and it is the ONLY browser who does it like this
14:46:00 <TrueBrain> webkit, khtml, ..... all dont
14:46:06 <TrueBrain> and there is no workaround :(
14:46:38 <FLHerne> IE is useless, Chromium doesn't have the features.
14:46:38 <TrueBrain> safari renders some margins wrong
14:46:45 <TrueBrain> so there is a line somewhere .. believe at the bottom
14:46:55 <FLHerne> I like the built-in stuff, like this IRC client :P
14:47:00 <andythenorth> nothing obviously wrong for me
14:47:26 <TrueBrain> but hell, you can even open the webpage in elinks
14:47:48 * drac_boy prefers low resource web browser .. and just a browser at that
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14:48:14 <Zuu> Apart from sometimes going to the wrong page when clicking on links, I like opera mini. ^^ Though, it has the largest benefit on small screen phones. Or larger smart phones its just tiny things like zooming in when you click near two links that make it useful.
14:48:15 <andythenorth> developers have email in public :o
14:48:21 <andythenorth> do developers get email from those?
14:48:22 <FLHerne> drac_boy: I use Dillo on old things :P
14:48:37 <drac_boy> FLHerne I prefer something that'll actually do full html
14:48:47 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: isnt that the intension?
14:49:03 <andythenorth> well...it would be a dumb move otherwise :P
14:49:14 <TrueBrain> I dont really understand the question here :D
14:49:20 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Dillo's OK with most things except SSL, actually
14:49:29 * andythenorth imagines 47,000 emails requesting underground metro
14:49:38 <TrueBrain> people in general behave
14:49:41 <andythenorth> and 28 per day offering to renew or transfer the domain
14:49:44 <TrueBrain> remember our emails are on the frontpage for 4 years now
14:49:46 <drac_boy> FLHerne and what about frames or document.write() tho?
14:50:26 <TrueBrain> how do you like the speed of the website btw? :P
14:50:35 <TrueBrain> instant pages 99% of the time :P
14:50:35 <andythenorth> it's fast for me
14:51:38 <FLHerne> drac_boy: I'm not a web designer, so I'm not quite sure what they are :P
14:51:54 <FLHerne> All I know is that it renders most sites I use fine
14:52:01 <TrueBrain> I love client-side-caching :)
14:52:17 <drac_boy> FLHerne well I'm not much of one, but I do do occassional webpages from time to time, usually for someone else
14:58:37 <drac_boy> FLHerne just wondering, does dillo support svg pictures?
14:59:47 <andythenorth> so...making the current smoke generation rules available to newgrfs -> bad idea?
14:59:55 <andythenorth> newgrfs should provide their own?
15:00:42 <andythenorth> [if a newgrf depends on current rules (steam, diesel, sparks) it will prevent changes to ottd defaults in future)
15:01:57 <drac_boy> andythenorth what if you made it optional, like if the newgrf does not describe any it'll use default
15:02:12 <drac_boy> just as much as if theres no track grf it'll use default track. you know
15:03:17 <drac_boy> anyway need to go now sorry :-s
15:07:17 <Zuu> drac_boy> FLHerne just wondering, does dillo support svg pictures? <-------- SVG in a text-based browser‽
15:07:53 <FLHerne> Dillo isn't text-based though...
15:08:08 <FLHerne> But no, it doesn't support SVG :-(
15:08:45 <FLHerne> However...drac_boy>FLHerne and what about frames...
15:08:59 <FLHerne> It does use frames, which is good :-)
15:12:09 <frosch123> you mean you do not have to automatically restart it every 4 hours due to memory leakage?
15:13:11 <FLHerne> The laptop I run it one crashes more often than that anyway, so I wouldn't know :p
15:16:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <Zuu> I never noticed the logo background issue, but now I will. :-) <-- it's like that HIMYM episode with "sound of glass breaking" :)
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15:38:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would CETS trigger effect vehicle generation? Would you replicate existing ottd algorithms in newgrf? Or do you have your own in mind?
15:38:32 <andythenorth> [existing are in vehicle.cpp]
15:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have not thought about effect vehicles yet
15:39:39 <andythenorth> is there anything broken about current smoke that you would want to fix in newgrf?
15:39:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: most broken is a potential 3rd rail effect
15:40:26 <andythenorth> that's the one where it strikes me you might need more bounding box info
15:40:30 <andythenorth> unless there's a nice hack
15:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the effect vehicle has an own bounding box, obviously
15:41:14 <andythenorth> you'd want to draw sparks behind and in front of the rail vehicle though?
15:41:22 <andythenorth> at least in 32bpp, this starts to matter
15:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. by setting the y offset
15:42:12 <andythenorth> and the sprite sorter figures it out?
15:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it should just work (tm)
15:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> x offset: move along vehicle, y offset: move ortoghonal to vehicle, z offset: move vertical
15:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> effect vehicles could have running sound, so a spark actually... sparks :p
15:43:48 <andythenorth> I can see a case for something drawn at roofline and behind a vehicle
15:44:30 <andythenorth> no b-box height for vehicles?
15:44:35 <andythenorth> discard any such case :P
15:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> no, bounding boxes may be only varied in length
15:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> not width or height
15:45:19 <andythenorth> such cases look like overkill to me
15:45:30 <andythenorth> but that's how hysterical raisins get baked in
15:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what's "wrong" with the current smoke is that there should additionally be coming steam from the sides :)
15:46:10 <Eddi|zuHause> especially at low speeds
15:48:50 <andythenorth> so you need custom EVs for that
15:49:46 <NGC3982> im pulling goods with trucks to a small town. suddenly the town stops accepting goods. this is simply because of my lame rating, yes?
15:51:37 *** TWerkhoven[l] has joined #openttd
15:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: no. rating has nothing to do with it
15:53:09 <NGC3982> what am i missing, then? :)
15:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: sometimes the town replaces buildings. you need at least 3 goods-accepting buildings near your station
15:54:14 <NGC3982> yes, i can see that. the town has down-graded one of the three goods-accepting buildings.
15:55:00 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: thanks.
15:55:07 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: you can get larger towns by providing frequent service (e.g. a bus circling several stations)
15:55:59 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i see. at first hand, i added two bus stations on each side of town.
15:56:11 <NGC3982> ..and there the goods-notice came
16:05:55 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
16:10:49 <andythenorth> FIRS bug count is 16
16:10:53 <andythenorth> can you increase it?
16:16:13 <andythenorth> is this a valid issue?
16:16:23 <andythenorth> planetmaker: care about this still? ^
16:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can make a "smaller layout" economy
16:17:55 <andythenorth> or just smaller layouts for the problem industries...
16:18:05 * andythenorth has a rule, no new features while there are open bugs :P
16:18:50 <SpComb> 1) no bugs 2) write new features 3) new bugs 4) fix bugs 5) repeat
16:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not really a bug, more like a feature request
16:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> declare it as feature request, and make it depend on economies
16:21:25 <andythenorth> bug closure by reclassification ;)
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16:41:56 <Terkhen> wow, it seems that a lot of people tests the RCs
16:49:13 <oskari89> How many downloads for all 1.2 RC's?
17:00:39 <andythenorth> Terkhen: mind if I close this? I'm not sure it matters much in the big scheme of things :)
17:01:23 <FLHerne> Out of interest, why did only 144 people download 0.6.1, but 20407 people download 0.6.2?
17:03:22 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the counter just doesn't go that far back
17:04:00 <FLHerne> Is it possible to download old releases then?
17:04:23 <FLHerne> Otherwise it would show 0, surely?
17:05:12 * andythenorth tries to decide if he likes 'ships avoid each other' patch
17:05:36 <frosch123> Terkhen: yeah, but you cannot test that with a rc :p
17:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm pretty sure i won't.
17:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> imho it's fine that ships and aircraft can go through each other in "open space"
17:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> but on harbors/airports, they should be separated
17:06:38 <andythenorth> I like the idea of 'turn to avoid'
17:06:51 <andythenorth> I don't like the idea of having to place n extra bouys :P
17:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that can be done by simple pathfinder penalty
17:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> for "ship is on tile"
17:07:07 <andythenorth> nor can I imagine it being lightweight on battery use :P
17:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> without preventing the ships to go over each other
17:07:57 <Eddi|zuHause> there was once a patch like this for road vehicles
17:07:59 <andythenorth> I have no problem with ships passing through each other
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17:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure why it was not accepted
17:08:36 <Eddi|zuHause> just let ships make a "reservation" like trains
17:08:44 * andythenorth wishes all art was drawn at the 2x zoom level
17:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> then the pathfinder can take care of the separation
17:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause> without any significant performance hit
17:11:41 <andythenorth> on my screen, for my eyes, 1.6x zoom would be ideal :P
17:12:42 <Terkhen> frosch123: so that bug is not triggered with the installer for RCs?
17:13:06 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I don't mind, it's something that would be nice to have but not a necessity
17:13:27 <frosch123> Terkhen: it's the variable that is set to "-RC4" in RC4
17:13:42 <frosch123> in the release we made the mistake to delete that var, instead of assigning ""
17:14:01 <Terkhen> I take back what I said then
17:17:05 <Terkhen> andythenorth: should be trivial, but I have no grf development environment ATM
17:17:51 <andythenorth> if you know what the issue is, I could fix with your instruction
17:18:02 * andythenorth is aiming for 'bug-zero'
17:19:39 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'm reinstalling my VM
17:19:45 <Terkhen> I'll do it in a few hours
17:20:07 <andythenorth> I can assign it to you and put in 0.7.3? :)
17:20:40 <Rhamphoryncus> I'd like to define shipping lanes between buoys and have ships follow that. That'd eliminate performance issues of the pathfinding, let them pass on the right, and could even allow for overtaking like a RV
17:23:54 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: yup, happens for me too
17:25:05 <andythenorth> wonder what causes it :o
17:26:11 <Rhamphoryncus> maybe openttd changes how it indicated mapgen vs gameplay?
17:28:04 <andythenorth> that would break spec :P
17:28:19 <andythenorth> more likely an obiwan, or a wrong byte or something in the parameters :)
17:28:36 * andythenorth rejects another bug
17:29:11 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm going to poke at it
17:30:00 <andythenorth> anybody care to poke at the station name bugs?
17:30:23 <andythenorth> might be interesting
17:33:14 <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, where's the voodoo for handling parameters?
17:35:02 <andythenorth> and then scattered through other templates
17:35:37 <andythenorth> e.g check_availability.pnml
17:35:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Got thrown off because my initial grep only found the nfo language files
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17:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the second one rather sounds like "messed with GRFs"... is that reproduceable?
17:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the first one, i suppose the game checks for same string-id
17:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> not whether they have the same content
17:39:24 <oskari892> Crashed just before i tried to save about 4 hours of work with certain flat wagon :P
17:40:04 <andythenorth> so now I have to ask yukonrob for a savegame from months ago, get his particular rev of ottd, compile it, track down exact versions of all his grfs :(
17:40:34 <andythenorth> and I still don't know where the savegame flag for 'messed with newgrfs is' :P
17:41:20 <frosch123> do all of your station names include the STRING code?
17:42:05 * andythenorth wonders where station names are defined
17:42:29 <frosch123> in your langfile for sure :p
17:43:15 <andythenorth> what am I looking for? They're all "{STRING} Refinery" etc
17:43:47 <frosch123> well, just try them in game
17:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari892: that's why you autosave every few minutes
17:44:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and in all the translations?
17:44:51 * andythenorth wonders what uses 'DEPOT'
17:45:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24119 /trunk/src/lang/afrikaans.txt:
17:45:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 114 changes by telanus
17:45:25 <TrueBrain> is that really the first commit in trunk? :P
17:46:17 <TrueBrain> your memory so bad frosch123? :)
17:46:41 <andythenorth> yes all contain {STRING}
17:46:51 <andythenorth> 'Woods' is a built-in name, right?
17:47:00 <frosch123> TrueBrain: apparently, yes :)
17:47:22 <andythenorth> e.g. 'Woods' at a refinery isn't wrong, it's just ottd supplying a name because 'refinery' is already used
17:50:18 <Eddi|zuHause> in the ancient version that i had, "refinery" was also used for some food thingies
17:50:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the sugar mill, i suppose
17:51:11 <andythenorth> just checked that
17:51:35 <andythenorth> so if he lost town part of station name, he screwed with his game?
17:52:23 <andythenorth> I have not been able to replicate it
17:52:36 <andythenorth> much as I'd like to spend the rest of my life randomly building stations :P
17:52:40 <andythenorth> we need a chaos monkey for testing
17:52:47 <andythenorth> NoGo chaos monkey?
17:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: request a savegame, or close it as unreproduceable
17:57:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why do you fix the bugs _after_ you made a release? :)
17:58:14 <andythenorth> going to speed up releasing
17:58:24 <andythenorth> releases are motivating
17:58:36 <SpComb> 10 releases to production a day
17:59:00 <andythenorth> SpComb: do you have a chaos monkey? Sounds like Netflix style
18:00:07 <andythenorth> is it really a valid bug? Or a feature request?
18:00:25 * telanus finally got rid of one of the ugliest Afrikaans mistranslations
18:00:48 <andythenorth> where's Borat? :)
18:00:50 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: bad news. Looks like that option never worked. nmlc was using the wrong variable before and when that got fixed..
18:01:30 <Rhamphoryncus> _game_mode is set long before the industries are created
18:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think that's purely a translation issue
18:02:06 <Rhamphoryncus> Is there another way of checking for mapgen completion?
18:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> when two english strings have the same content
18:03:02 <andythenorth> that makes sense
18:03:13 <andythenorth> I can't replicate two stations with same name in english
18:03:31 <Rhamphoryncus> I've seen duplicate names lots
18:03:45 * FLHerne is confused by GNU patch
18:03:52 <andythenorth> even for case of multiple industries of same type, I can't get ottd to duplicate station names
18:04:09 <Rhamphoryncus> They're a mix of manually named and automatically named stations
18:04:25 <Rhamphoryncus> I'll try to duplicate it
18:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: a manual name can be the same as an automatic name
18:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not the issue
18:04:55 <FLHerne> It keeps leaving off the last } and then of course I get compiler errors :-(
18:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the issue is two automatically generated strings
18:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the game cannot compare the content of the strings
18:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> because it changes with translations
18:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> so it can only compare the stringid
18:05:37 <andythenorth> I can't replicate the issue, no savegame provided, no screenshots
18:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and when two stringids have the same content
18:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> then the names will be duplicate
18:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they're only duplicate in one language, but not the others
18:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i fixed that once for the german translation
18:06:23 * Rhamphoryncus places a bus station, gets "XXX Forge", renames it to "XXX", places a second bus station, gets "XXX" again
18:06:27 <Eddi|zuHause> where the same content was repeated
18:07:21 <andythenorth> maybe the existing lang script should diff for duplicates
18:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's perfectly valid to have duplicates for anything other than station names :)
18:08:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Vehicle groups?
18:08:36 <Rhamphoryncus> I constantly hit that
18:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: i meant NewGRF translations. not ingame strings
18:08:51 <andythenorth> oh I can replicate
18:08:59 <andythenorth> it does happen for different industry types
18:09:07 <andythenorth> so industry need to enforce unique names per type
18:09:27 <andythenorth> 'Coal Mine' rather than 'Mines'
18:09:36 <andythenorth> 'Sugar Refinery' rather than 'Refinery'
18:09:57 <andythenorth> seems like it would be better for game to just use the industry name in that case :P
18:10:44 <andythenorth> I could nml the industry name in as a substring
18:10:53 <andythenorth> I don't really give a crap about station names :)
18:11:28 <andythenorth> but I am happy to sort out the code (and english.lang) to support a sane suggestion
18:11:38 <andythenorth> don't mind boringly setting industry name for all industry types
18:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it could be an nml issue
18:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that nml duplicates the string internally
18:12:24 <andythenorth> that's entirely plausible
18:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> then the ingame check for same stringid will fail
18:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause> causing the duplicates
18:13:08 <andythenorth> well that's just how nml works
18:13:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe i used the last nfo version
18:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so that may explain why that issue does not appear there
18:14:05 <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: that shouldn't happen..
18:14:36 <andythenorth> so anybody want to suggest station names?
18:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe post-processing on the nml->nfo output may fix this
18:15:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but just using the industry name should be an ok-ish workaround
18:16:34 <andythenorth> I think setting a unique string per industry is best
18:16:42 <andythenorth> assuming I can think of interesting ones :P
18:16:56 <andythenorth> I am happy to crowd-source :)
18:17:22 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I'll also need some time to update the spanish translation (installation is still in process)
18:17:54 <andythenorth> I'm not going to release 0.7.3 for at minimum a few days I guess
18:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> STR_TOWN:{STRING}; STR_INDUSTRY:name; STR_STATION:{STRING} {STRING} --> station_name: string(STR_STATION, string(STR_TOWN), string(STR_INDUSTRY))
18:19:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: does this work?
18:19:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's an nml patch? an ottd patch? or a FIRS patch?
18:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> a FIRS workaround
18:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> for using the industry name
18:19:37 <andythenorth> baby-sleeping duty first
18:19:42 <andythenorth> will be 30 mins or so
18:20:04 <FLHerne> Rhamphoryncus: >that shouldn't happen.. - It does :-(
18:20:25 <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: can you put an actual diff on the pastebin?
18:20:42 <FLHerne> Possibly you'll end up 'solving' it the same way as last time, though :-(
18:24:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: currently town name is supplied by ottd afaict, i.e. FIRS never handles it explicitly
18:24:48 * andythenorth might have missed something
18:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but you must have the {STRING} as a placeholder
18:25:20 * FLHerne wonders what he missed this time :|
18:25:32 <andythenorth> you're proposing handling that explicitly?
18:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but the string(x, y) macro replaces the first {STRING}
18:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so you must have a dummy string to re-insert it
18:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't know if it works lie this
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18:28:09 <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: could rename sugar refinery to sugar plant
18:28:27 <LordAro> honestly, i go offline for a few days... wth happened?
18:28:37 <Rhamphoryncus> Mill is also used for sugar can, but of course that conflicts with another industry
18:29:09 <FLHerne> Rhamphoryncus: do you mean andythenorth? :P
18:29:37 * Rhamphoryncus notes that Plant already exists too
18:29:43 <andythenorth> if unique names can be found, I'll use them
18:29:51 <andythenorth> might cause translators a headache
18:30:03 <DNAGoa> more live here and the #tycoon
18:30:41 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, it's seeming like duplicates are the lesser evil
18:31:09 <DNAGoa> nice to speak with real player of openttd
18:31:46 <FLHerne> the #tycooners are all lunatics :D
18:32:06 <Rhamphoryncus> And you expect us to be better?
18:33:23 <FLHerne> DNAGoa: so you introduced yourself a few times, and got splashed by Bukkit in the process? :P
18:33:39 <DNAGoa> yapp cause Bukkit is a server to minecraft
18:33:47 <Terkhen> we are kind of crazy here too
18:34:11 <FLHerne> Terkhen: in a more focused way, though :-)
18:34:37 <DNAGoa> i am playing 4 games OpenTTD(of course), minecraft, Sim City 4 ... soon 5 i comming and ... okay only 3 games
18:34:40 <Terkhen> in an almost OCD way?
18:34:45 <Alberth> oh, you mean sometimes we even discuss OpenTTD? :)
18:35:08 * andythenorth went in #tycoon once. They were talking crap :P
18:35:14 <Terkhen> obsessive compulsive disorder
18:35:29 <FLHerne> Sim City 4? Sacrilege! SC2k is the only true form!
18:35:39 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you're a FIRS translator - if I give all the industries unique, strange, English names, you'll hate me?
18:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's not unique about the industry names?
18:36:13 <Terkhen> andythenorth: either that or ignore the new names
18:36:15 <andythenorth> nothing, they just lack character
18:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i disagree
18:36:34 <FLHerne> Can anyone see what's wrong with the patch format?
18:36:51 <Terkhen> FLHerne: what do you mean?
18:36:51 * DNAGoa wounder what the are takling about
18:36:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you find them practical?
18:37:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes
18:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no use naming the station "factory" when it's actually a slaughterhouse...
18:37:23 * DNAGoa still trying to understand
18:37:35 <andythenorth> well also...the current names mostly map to the industry anyway
18:37:49 <andythenorth> 'farm', 'refinery', 'wells'
18:37:54 <andythenorth> 'dredging site' :P
18:38:15 <andythenorth> they have a very low information value :P
18:38:27 <andythenorth> (compared to just using industry name)
18:38:33 <andythenorth> in fact, arguably they lose information
18:39:02 <DNAGoa> if i say playing openttd in multiplayer you say?
18:39:06 <Terkhen> FLHerne: sorry, I don't see the problem
18:39:12 <Terkhen> DNAGoa: here we don't play much
18:39:33 <Terkhen> we mostly have inane discussions
18:39:39 <DNAGoa> whyyyyyyy gooooddd whyyyyy goooodddd
18:39:51 <FLHerne> I play quite a lot, actually
18:39:53 <Terkhen> if you want to play just start openttd and connect to a random server
18:40:22 <FLHerne> When I don't start asking awkward questions about C++, anyway :P
18:40:27 <DNAGoa> nooo ... i want to play with my bubbies ... the AI :P
18:40:48 <DNAGoa> and 1 - 4 Tottenhamn vs Chealse
18:41:13 <FLHerne> Are those numbers good or bad?
18:41:51 <DNAGoa> for Chelase is good and for Tottenhamn is Bad
18:41:57 <Terkhen> for me: don't care :P
18:42:15 <DNAGoa> not esport just plain sport
18:42:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I 90% understand that macro.
18:43:00 <andythenorth> where do I put it though?
18:43:03 <andythenorth> in the lang file?
18:43:22 <andythenorth> or in the prop for each industry?
18:43:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the last part in the nml code for each industry
18:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the other parts in the lang file
18:44:02 <andythenorth> don't hold your breath, you'll pass out before FIRS finishes compiling :P
18:44:10 <DNAGoa> if i say ... openttd with sim city you say?
18:45:17 <DNAGoa> and have anybody a good AI?
18:45:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: STR_INDUSTRY:name
18:45:43 <andythenorth> in the lang file?
18:45:48 <andythenorth> will evaluate to 'name'
18:45:51 <FLHerne> DNAGoa: AIAI is good in my opinion
18:45:53 <andythenorth> doesn't it need a string passing?
18:46:15 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you'd use the STR_INDUSTRY_WHATEVER you already have
18:46:18 <DNAGoa> i will test out, how about Adminiral and NoCab?
18:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause> put that into the macro
18:46:52 <FLHerne> I haven't used either of those very much, sorry
18:48:34 * FLHerne forgot about that page
18:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: is it ok to hold my breath now?
18:51:04 <NGC3982> i noticed i started my server without enabling electrical rails
18:51:11 <NGC3982> i cant seem to change it in-game
18:51:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24120 /branches/1.2/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: [1.2] -Fix [FS#5155]: accidental removal of constant definition in Windows installer
18:52:13 <NGC3982> am i doing it wrong, or is that a feature? :)
18:52:56 <FLHerne> Probably a feature :P
18:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 100*100*400/(72*86*1300)
18:52:58 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.49691910157
18:53:06 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: got some amusing extra ';' chars, but otherwise works
18:53:08 <frosch123> you cannot change certain settings in multiplayer
18:53:17 <frosch123> only those which are syncable
18:53:23 <NGC3982> any particular reason? cheating or simply non-compatible?
18:53:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it "compiles" or it displays correctly ingame?
18:53:46 <andythenorth> displays ~correctly
18:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the ; were only to separate the lines
18:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Herz-Lungen-Wiederbelebung?
18:54:44 <andythenorth> oh yeah, lang files don't need ;
18:54:49 <andythenorth> unlike other parts of nml
18:54:55 <andythenorth> I know why, but it always trips me up
18:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> (for english speaking people: roughy translates as CPR)
18:56:26 <andythenorth> for christmas, a faster nmlc?
18:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll be so fast, it already comes out easter!
18:56:59 <andythenorth> multiprocessing....
18:57:29 <andythenorth> probably won't help
18:58:39 <andythenorth> station strings appear to cache :|
18:59:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24121 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Merge: documentation update from 1.2
18:59:31 <andythenorth> they cache even more when you don't save a lang file before compiling :P
19:00:11 <andythenorth> so are station names unique per player?
19:01:59 <frosch123> i would guess per map
19:02:10 <frosch123> due to taking over other companies
19:02:35 <frosch123> iirc that also applies to groups, and i think we got complains about that :)
19:05:08 <FLHerne> frosch123: I can see why people would complain
19:05:47 <FLHerne> Could the taking-over-company code not check for duplicate station/group names?
19:06:14 <FLHerne> Maybe append extra characters to unduplicate them
19:08:02 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not how it works
19:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the strings do not exist in the form of characters
19:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you manually changed it
19:09:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so you cannot "just append characters"
19:09:52 <FLHerne> Surely it could check for duplicate strings despite not knowing what the string translations actually are?
19:10:44 <FLHerne> If appending would be impractical, it could allocate names as if new stations were being constructed?
19:11:43 <andythenorth> where would the pointer point?
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19:11:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v michi_cc
19:12:12 <andythenorth> pointing pointer points :P
19:12:45 *** michi_cc has joined #openttd
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19:16:46 <oskari892> My friend told me that original TTD had "tunnel money cheat" ?
19:17:15 <oskari892> If you built a very long tunnel, you would had money?
19:17:25 *** zxbiohazardzx has joined #openttd
19:17:31 <oskari892> Something like that, can somebody confirm?
19:17:56 <__ln__> Yes, but I think that was in TT, not sure if in TTD.
19:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it was in TTD as well
19:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but in OpenTTD it's fixed
19:20:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i actually used that cheat once, very late in a game
19:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> when my money overflowed into negative
19:20:19 <Prof_Frink> No, it wasn't in TTD.
19:20:27 <Prof_Frink> I think it was fixed in TTWE.
19:20:43 <Eddi|zuHause> built a few of those tunnels, and got back into positive
19:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: no, i'm very certain that this was in a TTWE game
19:21:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: i'm saying that you definitely remember wrong. :)
19:21:50 <Prof_Frink> < Eddi|zuHause> it was in TTD as well <-- It wasn't.
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19:27:57 <SpComb> I vaugely recall failing to do it in TTD
19:28:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it failed in TT as well, when i first tried it
19:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs certain length at a certain inflation rate
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19:44:41 <LordAro> dammit, said that already :L
19:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that surprising? :p
19:51:20 <andythenorth> I've used a string like
19:51:20 <andythenorth> TTD_STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_PAPER_MILL
19:51:23 <andythenorth> and it's not valid
19:51:27 <andythenorth> but I don't know which one :P
19:52:14 <andythenorth> or this isn't valid
19:52:15 <andythenorth> nearby_station_name: string(STR_STATION, string(STR_TOWN), string(TTD_STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_IRON_ORE_MINE));
19:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that doesn't look valid
19:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you can reference TTD strings this way
19:54:51 <andythenorth> this is valid though
19:54:52 <andythenorth> name: TTD_STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_FRUIT_PLANTATION;
19:55:17 <Eddi|zuHause> notice that this is not inside a string() macro
19:55:21 <andythenorth> I'm just going to default to TTD original names for original industries
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20:06:06 <andythenorth> nearby_station_name: 0;
20:06:16 <andythenorth> interesting bit of code there by someone ;)
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20:09:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: all fixed :)
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20:11:32 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: nope. It never worked. Only reason it appeared to is that nmlc was reading the wrong global
20:12:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Perhaps something evil like set a global flag the first time a certain callback is used
20:12:56 <andythenorth> the method for doing this should be straightforward
20:12:57 <drac_boy> do any of you know if it would be quoted as (Bo'Bo')(Bo'Bo') or in a different way for two units? in usa it would had been labelled as B-B+B-B
20:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if it's physically separable, then it's Bo'Bo'+Bo'Bo'
20:14:32 <drac_boy> hm thanks, just couldn't find an example to figure out how to write it
20:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: have any bit of context`
20:16:45 <xiong> andythenorth, It's not for me to say; but yes, I consider the Lumber Yard to be working tolerably. You can meditate on the fixed-point/rounding issue if you like. Might want to adjust documentation, as if anybody read it.
20:16:49 <drac_boy> might be hard to tell but yes it was seperately coupled in the middle
20:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, then + should be accurate
20:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> because they cannot be separated from the middle sections
20:21:36 <drac_boy> ah so thats where they then used brackets...hmm thanks a lot eddi
20:21:53 <andythenorth> when small amounts of cargo (less than 8t) are delivered to secondary industries,
20:21:53 <andythenorth> this will be stored until there is enough to produce a certain amount of output
20:21:54 <andythenorth> cargo. It can appear that such small amounts of cargo are lost, but they aren't.
20:22:03 <andythenorth> in the readme now
20:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you use brackets when the bogey is not simply consisting of driven axles
20:22:21 <drac_boy> looks like thats a museum yard? heh :)
20:22:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the oldest functional electric engines in germany
20:23:27 <drac_boy> I knew it had to be old with that low E numbering but .. functional.. thats interesting
20:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the photo seems to have been taken on a gathering of historical engines
20:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: not at an actual museum
20:24:55 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Does the museum have it's own catenary? Or is the loco mainline registered?
20:25:08 <FLHerne> Ok, not a museum then...
20:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: the engine has mainline permission
20:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> although they might have trouble renewing it
20:25:46 <zxbiohazardzx> no quotebot here XD
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20:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> must be renewed every 5 years or so, with significant financial investment
20:26:43 <drac_boy> eddi electric locomotive with no overhead wire reminds me of an article on a new emu .. apparently the main repair shed was not electrified but it was on a downslope so the emu just simply glide into the shed 'dead' .. then was pushed back to the electrified track by the diesel shunter
20:27:02 <drac_boy> not sure if that must had been an unique operation
20:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: such kind of engine sheds have existed, yes
20:27:47 <andythenorth> 6 FIRS bugs, hanging on a wall
20:27:56 <Zuu> I recall being on a night train in north sweden which has to goo backward in order to get speed to cross a powerless section.
20:27:56 <andythenorth> and if one FIRS bug should accidentally fall...
20:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you notice the yellow engine in the background is a shunting engine
20:28:36 <Zuu> Clarification: it had to go backward some distance and then forward again. Possible it had been stoping at a red signal or so.
20:28:50 <drac_boy> andythenorth what'll happen then? :)
20:29:05 <andythenorth> there'll be 5 FIRS bugs, hanging on a wall
20:29:41 <andythenorth> leaving merely another 78 open tickets
20:30:14 <FLHerne> Does 'windmills still jump up and down' count as one of those bugs? :P
20:30:31 <andythenorth> you never posted a ticket anyway
20:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: a brief history of the engine: the series was ordered before the first world war, but only produced after it had ended. after the second world war, most of the series ended up in east germeny, from where all electric engines were moved to russia, but given back in the 1950's. originally this series, due to its age and outdated technic (coupled instead of individual axles) they should have been scrapped, but due to delays for the
20:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> new engines, some of them were repaired, and one of them picked as museum engine
20:30:52 * FLHerne goes to post a ticket ;D
20:31:17 <drac_boy> eddi hmm I'm not too surprised with that WWII shuffle-around
20:31:27 <drac_boy> and mind you I kind of have a thing for siderods even if its not on steam :)
20:31:57 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the rods-technique was basically already outdated when they were produced
20:32:31 <andythenorth> FLHerne: I'll close the ticket :P
20:32:41 <andythenorth> unless you can demonstrate the issue at 1x zoom level
20:33:03 * FLHerne remembers he hasn't got a DevZone account anyway :-(
20:33:17 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: Thanks for the history lection. I still can't stop but looking at thet engine. :-)
20:34:37 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You should draw 8bpp EZ sprites, just to confuse the people who think 32bpp=EZ :P
20:35:01 <andythenorth> I'm closing this as an issue for OpenTTD
20:35:11 <andythenorth> either remove the cbs that permit customising cargos
20:35:18 <andythenorth> or the industry chain view is broken
20:35:54 <andythenorth> keeps coming up as a bug
20:37:06 <drac_boy> on the mainline they were good fast locomotive, especially silk trains
20:37:49 <Terkhen> ok, let's see if I can compile FIRS now
20:38:42 <oskari892> andythenorth: Have you considered Peat as FIRS cargo?
20:38:52 <andythenorth> you could do it as an add-on
20:39:05 <andythenorth> but it's not valid for main FIRS ;)
20:39:10 <Terkhen> it's really slow, but it seems that I can
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20:39:12 <andythenorth> I think there's one cargo slot free
20:39:13 <Zuu> drac_boy: impressive. I don't know what that type of engine style is called, but I've mainly seen that in diesel engines for switchyards.
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20:39:34 <drac_boy> oskari892 what can peat be used for btw?
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20:40:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: economies!
20:40:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: one day :P
20:40:56 <andythenorth> I want to make it python driven before I do those
20:40:57 <FLHerne> Is it possible to have more than 32 cargo types, if not all of them exist simultaneously?
20:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> plan it as 0.8, and when you're done, call it 1.0 instead :p
20:41:23 <drac_boy> that one is a yard goat..meaning it was slow but could haul just about everything except the kitchen sink
20:41:44 <drac_boy> 'tr' was short for TRansfer
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20:45:05 <andythenorth> just 71 open tickets :P
20:45:19 <drac_boy> andythenorth hmm you always could use peat as three industries. the peat output itself, then a fertilizer industry that could boost the output of any farming industries. and maybe a small powerplant built to run on the peat fuel rather than coal
20:45:45 <andythenorth> do you think I will?
20:46:29 <Zuu> drac_boy: Oh yea. I spent a summer in Vancouver (Canada), and there I saw three coupled diesel engiens like the one you posted pulling a very long train.
20:46:42 <drac_boy> andythenorth well its up to you :P
20:47:17 <andythenorth> peat isn't a major world cargo for transportation
20:47:26 <andythenorth> it's quite specific to certain muddy places
20:47:39 <andythenorth> and there's no power plants in FIRS
20:49:39 <FLHerne> Produced by farms and some town buildings, accepted by Stores :P
20:49:53 <andythenorth> covered by 'livestock'
20:50:22 <drac_boy> FLHerne problem is its not really 'pets' its more like 'farm animals' .. sheep and cattle most of the times :P
20:50:27 <FLHerne> Not really - pets aren't ground up to make sausages :P
20:50:32 <drac_boy> although I think sheep transport was more of a usa/australia thing
20:50:52 <FLHerne> FIRS has livestock already
20:51:52 <andythenorth> Terkhen: compile ok?
20:52:14 <Terkhen> now trying to play with shared folders until make install copies the compiled FIRS into my windows OpenTTD folder
20:52:21 <Terkhen> otherwise it is a PITA to test
20:53:23 <andythenorth> ftp it somewhere :P
20:54:34 <Terkhen> make install -> test in windows
20:54:39 <Terkhen> that's what I want :)
20:55:31 <Terkhen> huh... this is *not* what I expected
20:56:33 * Terkhen wonders if crashing is a new FIRS feature
20:56:55 <Terkhen> sorry andythenorth, it seems that I have to install my openttd debugging environment too
21:00:49 <Terkhen> OpenTTD magic: try to do something completely small and find a big, ugly, probably unrelated mess
21:02:20 <andythenorth> "and then, after I had rebuilt gcc from scratch, changed my filesystem to case sensitive, updated FIRS to grf v8, and upgraded mercurial, I was able to change the version number" :P
21:02:53 <Terkhen> well, I had to install mercurial from backports to be able to work with it :P
21:09:48 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I have to sleep ;)
21:10:00 <Terkhen> yes, most people need that
21:10:04 <Terkhen> good night andythenorth :P
21:10:09 <andythenorth> sorry it has opened a can of worms :|
21:11:16 <andythenorth> also - if it doesn't work - don't worry, I'll figure it out
21:33:54 <Terkhen> I wonder why my stupid MSVC is trying to convert OpenTTD into a .lib
21:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> played with one too many settings? :p
21:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> projects/generate.vbs
21:42:46 <Terkhen> let's see, but it should be a clean checkout
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21:57:45 <Terkhen> thanks, it worked after that
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