IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-03-23
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00:39:53 <Nat_aS> so, if scenerios are savegames, why can't you build things in them
00:39:57 <Nat_aS> like tracks and trains?
00:49:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Because there's no players yet? And then you'd just have a savegame ;)
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01:08:07 <Nat_aS> i mean why can't you make a secenario with players already existing
01:14:20 <Rhamphoryncus> just use a savegame
01:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> just play the game as player X and rename it into .scn again
01:18:15 <Rhamphoryncus> with some cheats about the only things you can't do is place oceans and place rivers/lakes
01:26:57 <V453000> and the new editor signs :p
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02:06:37 <Nat_aS> no way to adjust the snowline?
02:07:00 <Nat_aS> also, no way to controll how towns will expand other than trimming them each time you press expand?
02:09:27 <Rhamphoryncus> there's an option to turn off road building entirely
02:09:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Dunno if that is affected by the expand button
02:10:35 <Nat_aS> altohugh I think the most anoying thing is the tendency to build skyscrapers everywhere
02:10:39 <Nat_aS> in a town you just made
02:13:53 <Rhamphoryncus> Depends on the year and the size of the town
02:14:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Maybe year is only with newgrfs
02:15:46 <Rhamphoryncus> I found that the scenario editor didn't create as many tall buildings as normal gameplay would
02:27:36 <V453000> just let the game run for a while, it will fill them rather quickly
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04:19:00 <Nat_aS> man, I like FIRS, but it would be better if the chains were shorter
04:19:44 <Nat_aS> Raw > Refined > Product > Consumer, should be Raw > Product > Consumer
04:20:33 <Nat_aS> but I like the idea of a fish industry, as well as Supplies (although it could be simplified to agricultural and industrial) and recycling chains
04:43:00 <Rhamphoryncus> Nat_aS: Yeah, I've enjoyed FIRS, but now I'm exploring ECS
04:43:57 <Nat_aS> i think it would be better with generic factories like in vanilla.
04:44:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Dunno. FarmSup/EngSup I simultaneously like and dislike
04:44:57 <Rhamphoryncus> (Keep in mind I've been using a patched version which spreads out the farmsup/engsup requirements.. still a lot of effort.)
04:46:11 <Rhamphoryncus> No, it gives them a stockpile of up to 6 months, which increasing consumption as they expand
04:46:17 <Rhamphoryncus> I do need to try YACD though
04:46:28 <Nat_aS> I'll admit that supplies are hard to implement in OTTD's model
04:47:40 <Rhamphoryncus> My last game of FIRS I had a set of trams waiting for full load at each location. A train would come, transfer off, load what ever wasn't taken immediately by the trams, and move to the next until they were empty
04:48:06 <Rhamphoryncus> Turned out to be more complicated than it was worth
04:49:28 <Nat_aS> it's really overcomplicated for such an issue
04:49:50 <Nat_aS> also, even waiting for goods to arrive so you can make more goods is a problem in OTTD
04:50:05 <Nat_aS> why I don't think industry chains should ever be longer than two links.
04:50:30 <Nat_aS> not unless you can change how the system works fundamentaly.
04:50:41 <Rhamphoryncus> ttd has always been an asymmetric, volume oriented game. You full load and let that regulate everything. Other than pax of course, but they suck for this very reason
04:51:00 <Nat_aS> well Cargodist fixes pax
04:51:07 <Nat_aS> I can't imagine playing OTTD without that.
04:51:26 <Nat_aS> perhaps what needs to happen is to make secondary goods less dense than raw materials?
04:51:34 <Rhamphoryncus> In of themselves the long chains don't bother me, but with the tendency to collect many primaries into a single secondary.. you just have secondary to secondary. One massive link.
04:51:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Cargodist isn't enough. You need good timetables too, which we don't have
04:52:17 <Nat_aS> yeah, I usualy wont even bother with an industry unless I can connect two primaries to a secondary.
04:52:27 <Nat_aS> and then the secondary is usualy just trucks
04:52:35 <Nat_aS> or spare space on trains.
04:53:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Cargodist is fun but not challenging. Trivial to still use a single secondary drop for the entire map
04:53:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Again I need to try YACD
04:53:54 <Nat_aS> the only way I could see this changing is to make secondaries less dense, mechanically by having a disproportionate amount of secondary cargo for each priamary cargo produced
04:54:16 <Nat_aS> or at least by having the parcels take up more room and cost more than there priamaries.
04:54:51 <Rhamphoryncus> nope, that just changes the volume
04:54:54 <Nat_aS> 1 ton of raw makes 1 crate of goods, with each crate taking up twice as much space on a car and costing twice as much
04:55:03 <Nat_aS> but changing the volume would make it less asymetric.
04:55:08 <Pinkbeast> I think it's fine; it promotes an approach other than always using the biggest locomotives on long trains.
04:55:28 <Rhamphoryncus> Asymmetry isn't about volume. It's about direction of flow
04:55:30 <Pinkbeast> The secondary output volumes being small.
04:55:50 <Rhamphoryncus> coal->powerstation vs city<-->city
04:56:15 <Rhamphoryncus> Pinkbeast: what promotes smaller trains?
04:56:34 <Pinkbeast> What I think Nat is complaining about; the way cargo volumes tend to drop along FIRS trains.
04:56:40 <Nat_aS> Mill,Mill,Mine -> Factory -> town
04:56:46 <Pinkbeast> It means you have to think a bit - big locomotives, small ones, RVs...
04:57:04 <Nat_aS> should be Mill,Mill,Mine -> Factory -> Town, Town, Town, Town, Town
04:57:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Naw. Mill,Mill,Mine -> Factory,Factory -> Town,Town,Town,Town,Town
04:57:52 <Nat_aS> well either way, I'd rather see more materials go out than come in
04:58:05 <Nat_aS> if only because that allows huge doublestack container trains
04:58:16 <Nat_aS> and maybe an incentive to actualy try to distribute goods to every town
04:58:25 <Nat_aS> or use more than one factory
04:59:27 <Nat_aS> i mean in real life, finished goods are in packages, unless you are talking about Ikea furniture, you are mostly shipping air.
04:59:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Mind you, iron ore would be very bulky, which turns into steel which is so dense as to take up a traincar just for a small amount anyway, which turns into goods which are usually very low density
04:59:48 <Nat_aS> finished goods should be less dense and more valuable than raw materials.
05:00:07 <Nat_aS> yeah, but finished goods are less dense than ore.
05:00:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Doesn't FIRS mark them as "crates" rather than tonnes?
05:00:36 <Nat_aS> anyways, a crate should weigh more and cost more than the materials that went into it
05:01:01 <Nat_aS> because it is filled with air and packing materials as opposed to a pile of dirt.
05:01:11 <Rhamphoryncus> To be really pedantic.. if you add *all* the inputs it should take exactly the same amount
05:01:34 <Nat_aS> no, because some things are added at the factory
05:01:41 <Nat_aS> like air and packing materials
05:01:49 <Rhamphoryncus> (To be really REALLY pedantic.. that includes electrical and thermal energy)
05:01:54 <Nat_aS> also consider there are unseen resources that your company does not produce.
05:02:10 <Pinkbeast> Packing materials arrive explicitly in FIRS and I definitely think you're overanalysing
05:02:28 <Nat_aS> oh speaking of power, why are there no power stations in FIRS?
05:02:37 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, but.. I see no point in being super realistic here. Make it fun and walk away happy.
05:03:03 <Pinkbeast> Because coal->power is too easy without the demand for power entering into it?
05:03:29 <Pinkbeast> I mean, think about any vanilla game; 1) ship coal across map 2) forget about money
05:03:32 <Nat_aS> would be cool if power incresed the production of all the industries within a radius.
05:03:43 <Pinkbeast> You want Simutrans. :-)
05:03:56 <Nat_aS> Ship coal across map, go bankrupt waiting for coal to arrive. :P
05:04:17 <Nat_aS> i want simutrans with graphics that aren't ugly
05:04:27 <Nat_aS> also possible to earn money
05:04:35 <Nat_aS> I have never been able to make a profit in simutrans
05:04:42 <Pinkbeast> You can easily earn money in Simutrans - it's just also easy not to.
05:05:09 <Nat_aS> Factories STOP PRODUCING IF THERE CARGO IS NOT TAKEN TO MARKET
05:05:13 <Pinkbeast> Ironically, with Coal->Power is a good way to start.
05:05:22 <Nat_aS> you have to finish chains for them to make any money
05:05:32 <Nat_aS> you can't just run a half chain like in TTD
05:05:40 <Pinkbeast> Thanks, I have played Simutrans.
05:05:56 <Nat_aS> that alone makes it too hard for me :p
05:07:21 <Pinkbeast> First do coal->power using engines with a good power-cost ratio (Garratts in pak64); unlike OTTD, don't get another train every time the supply station starts to fill, but aim to just have enough to keep the power station fed. Pass electricity back.
05:07:31 <Pinkbeast> Reuse infrastructure where possible, you're paying for it.
05:08:02 <Nat_aS> I'm not the only one who prefers that
05:08:09 <Nat_aS> (it's the least ugly one)
05:08:20 <Pinkbeast> That makes money. Then... yes, you have to fill complete chains, but you can work your way along - you can make money on the first leg until you fill up the output, then build the second leg...
05:10:27 <Pinkbeast> And never unnecessarily move a train empty, the sort of routing cockup that doesn't matter in OTTD is a killer in Simutrans - a full-length Garratt train might as well run on pound notes not coal, given the speed it eats it up.
05:13:14 <Pinkbeast> Also you get the grace period after finishing a month negative - stop building _anything_.
05:13:35 <Pinkbeast> Oh, and... for some reason the default tram tracks cost about ten times as much as rails, so don't build them. :-/
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05:45:16 <Nat_aS> well anyways, Simutrans is ugly as sin.
05:45:35 <Nat_aS> even if it does have many features I wish OTTD had
05:46:11 <Nat_aS> it's art community thinks tracing 3dCG and Ariel photos are a substitute for pixel art
05:46:30 <Nat_aS> and there engine does not allow as many options as the Newgrf system
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10:15:22 <Steve^> Hi, with the 32bit project, the objective is to create images that are twice the resolution and with extra colour depth?
10:15:45 <Steve^> At regular zoom levels, these same images are then scaled down to fit with some algorithm?
10:17:57 <V453000> not exactly, you just use as large images as you want, but if you use larger ones than -something-, they can glitch badly
10:18:41 <Steve^> I guess my question is, do you use the same image for full zoom and scale it down for normal zoom, or do you have two different images?
10:18:54 <V453000> but of course there are some "absolute safety" templates for sprites. but sometimesi it is possible to make larger images safely if you choose the right direction
10:19:13 <V453000> ah, I guess there are multiple, I dont know anything about the extra zoom sprites reallly
10:19:19 <V453000> but downscaling sounds wrong
10:19:32 <V453000> the default should always be the normal zoom view as it always was
10:19:45 <Steve^> that's what I was thinking
10:19:55 <Steve^> shrinking images leads to losing detail
10:20:15 <Steve^> and I think normal zoom would be standard for most of the time
10:21:23 <V453000> I dont even think it is worth it to draw in the extra zoom
10:21:36 <V453000> if you need zooming, you usually want to just look at it more closely, not change the image
10:21:44 <V453000> and it is so much additional effort
10:22:01 <Steve^> I think someone needs to tell the 32bit guys that..
10:22:21 <V453000> well I understand if you take it all from a 3D renderer, then even the 32bpp makes sense
10:22:32 <V453000> but takes the classical pixel art compltetely
10:23:09 <V453000> so people like me, a fan of pixel art, draw only in 8bpp and no extra zooms ... the classical way
10:23:32 <Elukka> well, i find 2x zoom much easier on the eyes when working on stuff
10:23:56 <Elukka> and it would of course be nice if sprites had enough resolution
10:24:02 <Elukka> just a lot of work to do it
10:24:08 <Steve^> largely depends on monitors and eyesight I guess
10:24:14 <V453000> yeah, sure, I understand some people do that ... but I dont think the resolution would help (too) much there, if not vice versa
10:24:27 <Steve^> I've seen some crazy small-pixel monitors that would need more zoom
10:24:36 <Elukka> and there's no reason you can't draw classical pixel art 32 bpp and with extra zoom levels
10:24:44 <V453000> I wouldnt necessarily say that more pixels would mean more contrast/more obvious shapes etc so the extra zoom would actually help you build
10:25:03 <Elukka> 32bpp lets you have much nicer colors no matter how you're working
10:25:04 <V453000> lot of stupid work and no limitation by colour palette is boring
10:25:18 <Steve^> colours is definitely a good thing
10:25:43 <V453000> that is old palette isnt it
10:26:02 <Elukka> that's really just a mockup but that's 32bpp
10:26:10 <V453000> but all of those colours are in 8bpp?
10:26:20 <Elukka> there would be no way to have those colors in 8bpp
10:27:06 <V453000> dont know but I think all of them have at least identical colour in the 8bpp palette
10:27:07 <Elukka> 8bpp version is a lot less accurate and doesn't look as good imo
10:27:46 <V453000> it doesnt look as good only because you dont use lighter colours there for more contrast
10:28:06 <Elukka> there aren't appropriate colors!
10:28:16 <Elukka> and the brown in particular is all wrong
10:28:24 <Rhamphoryncus> 32bpp would let me have company colours that don't suck?
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10:29:22 <V453000> it doesnt matter that they arent the same, but the range of brightness is much higher in the 32bpp image you showed, which can definitely be reached also in 8bpp by using more of the shades of that colour
10:29:30 <Elukka> from a drawing perspective... one of the big advantages of 32bpp to me is i'm free to use brightness/contrast/saturation adjustments
10:29:59 <Elukka> with the 8 bit palette i often find the next bright color is just way too bright
10:30:18 <Elukka> if i need to make a color contrast a little bit more or do whatever with 32 bit i can do it
10:30:27 <Rhamphoryncus> the traditional 8bpp graphics have a quaint cartoonish look
10:30:51 <Elukka> 32bpp doesn't necessarily dictate a change in style
10:31:07 <Elukka> it can still be pixel art, it doesn't have to be renders
10:31:21 <Elukka> it just means there are more colors available
10:32:13 <Rhamphoryncus> I often find myself at 2x zoom, so worrying about the steel mill being scaled down is backwards
10:32:45 <Elukka> company colors that don't suck
10:33:34 <Rhamphoryncus> And although you could get close to what you want using 8bpp for the train, that's because the game is focused on trains and that includes the palette. For houses.. honestly, it's a train wreck. All that great art ruined by the lack of colours
10:35:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Changing the palette is easy. Unfortunately I'm betting a lot more than trains uses those colours, so you'll screw up plenty of other art by doing it
10:35:26 <Elukka> i dunno, doesn't screw up anything for me
10:36:00 <Elukka> actually it does change the menu backgrounds to a lighter grey i believe
10:36:12 <Elukka> but it doesn't touch other sprites
10:37:21 <Rhamphoryncus> "since this set only replaces default sprites" Ahh, so it's more about the sprites than the palette
10:38:03 <Elukka> i think you could make 32bpp sprites that visually fit in with existing 8bpp ones if you based their overall color scheme on palette colors
10:39:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Perhaps. Hard to. You'll make many of the existing grfs look bad by comparison :)
10:42:31 <Rhamphoryncus> looking at the ECS power station right now and a good 32bpp sprite would simply blend. You wouldn't notice anything wrong like the dithering currently
10:43:09 <Elukka> ECS is extremely varied in its art quality i think
10:43:19 <Elukka> some of the new sprites are wonderful, others just don't fit at all
10:44:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Aye, but I'm sure palette is a big part of it
10:48:19 <Rhamphoryncus> 8bpp is good art. 32bpp is beautiful art.
10:50:28 <Rhamphoryncus> Huh. The 32bpp trains aren't nearly as good.
10:50:57 <ffpp> when looking at screenshots I sometimes thought that the 32bpp graphics looked a bit more toy'ey than the old 8bpp ones, maybe it is intentional
10:51:34 <ffpp> at least for the vehicles/trains
10:52:48 <Rhamphoryncus> The 32bpp trains look flat. They look like perfectly smooth 3d rendered surfaces.
10:53:27 <Rhamphoryncus> "PNG version of Class125.gif" err.. I hope that wasn't a gif reencoded as png. It would explain the look.
10:54:40 <Elukka> well that first water tower wouldn't fit in with current graphics
10:55:14 <Elukka> to be honest i don't like the look of the old 32bpp project graphics
10:55:58 <Elukka> they look like bare 3D models badly in need of some more texturing
10:56:14 * Rhamphoryncus looks closer at the water tower and spots the triangles x_x
10:57:03 <Rhamphoryncus> you're a square
10:57:10 <Elukka> no reason not to make them as high poly as you like if you're just going to make sprites out of them
10:58:21 <Elukka> i think another problem with the project is that they didn't really have any unifying artistic style
10:58:46 <Elukka> the limitations of the low resolution 8bpp graphics kind of enforce a certain type of style so it's easier to make graphics that fit
11:00:11 <Elukka> with 32bpp and extra zoom levels there's way less limitations
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11:00:24 <Elukka> you can still make graphics that fit in but it takes effort. and it's open to pretty much any kind of style
11:02:13 <Elukka> if you make a full graphics replacement it doesn't need to fit in with old graphics of course but then you need a new, coherent style
11:04:00 <Rhamphoryncus> And.. you won't achieve it on the first pass
11:04:24 <Rhamphoryncus> You need a fair bit of work before you figure out what style works best. After that you get to redo everything
11:05:58 <Elukka> if i was tackling a task like that (and i'm not) i think i'd do mockups
11:06:20 <Elukka> just do some pictures of how you'd like the game work to look like until it looks good, then get to drawing actual sprites in that style
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11:18:58 <Rhamphoryncus> You can actually use real sprites for that
11:19:35 <Rhamphoryncus> alright, gonna try to get some sleep. Got a messy day ahead of me. x_x
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13:18:05 <planetmaker> <Steve^> Hi, with the 32bit project, the objective is to create images that are twice the resolution and with extra colour depth? <-- I'd say, the goal is to have 32bpp sprites for all zoom levels
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13:19:45 <planetmaker> Steve^, and indeed, IMHO the style need not be different. What we want is decent 32bpp versions for what we have. And those additionally for zoom-levels 1x, 2x and 4x.
13:19:53 <planetmaker> The wiki regarding that might be hopelessly outdated
13:20:08 <planetmaker> Especially the tracker is
13:22:20 <Steve^> ok, so you don't want to have to scale the images
13:22:49 <planetmaker> I want them in all three, 1x, 2x and 4x. And if they're derived from a model, i want the model file, too
13:23:57 <planetmaker> Steve^, you might look at the OpenGFX+ projects. I'd use them as staging area for the 32bpp sprites being coded.
13:24:13 <planetmaker> If we got one feature covered, we can then transfer it to OpenGFX itself easily
13:25:06 <planetmaker> do you think of contributing / helping?
13:26:51 <Steve^> No, I was looking at a graphics discussion for Theme Hospital and wondered what you guys were up to
13:27:50 <planetmaker> well, the current path is to a) sort through the existing 32bpp and code them those which can be used and more importantly get all sprites in 32bpp (in all zoom levels) to have a 32bpp base set, too
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15:23:04 <andythenorth> so small buses then?
15:23:32 <Pikka> I have sprites for 2 vehicles done but then I got distracted by av8 again
15:24:32 <andythenorth> does bandit need to be smaller? :P
15:25:21 <Pikka> I dunno, possibly. :P I was thinking of doing some trucks too since the design philosophy seems quite different. UK-style, real world vehicles. "TTD-useful" vehicles only (which means first trucks in 1930, lol)
15:29:52 <Pikka> even the horse-drawn buses I decided were not worthwhile. Anyway, cross-town services are what the little tank engines in UKRS2 are for.
15:30:11 <Nat_aS> hey andythenorth, why aren't the fishing harbors in FIRS seaports?
15:30:29 <Nat_aS> it seems silly that you have to build docks next to them, silly and a bit ugly.
15:32:58 <andythenorth> can't remember, but there are reasons
15:33:13 <Nat_aS> can oil rigs not touch the shore?
15:33:17 <andythenorth> someone tell me what the reasons were...
15:34:24 <Pikka> because the oil rig station is a nasty hacky thing which should be avoided if there's any alternative
15:34:51 <andythenorth> because in MP, you can steal other people's transfer cargo from oil rig stations
15:35:05 <andythenorth> because it would accept passengers and there's no way to turn it off
15:35:20 <andythenorth> because helicopters would land there, and it looks / is stupid
15:35:27 <Pikka> new(air)ports built into industries are required :)
15:35:34 <andythenorth> because I was told to be patient and wait for new(air)ports
15:35:37 <Nat_aS> I'd think a station that is also a factory would be perfect for that, but yeah those issues should be fixed
15:35:38 <Pikka> but that's still pie in the sky, and on the water.
15:35:48 <Nat_aS> oh so it will be fixed later?
15:36:02 <andythenorth> because we don't want to patch to improve the existing station on water, even through frosch had patch for it like 3 years ago :P
15:37:06 <Nat_aS> well, I grew up in a fishing town, and you could probably make it look less silly by having a fish processing plant that is built like a normal factory (on land) but has to be close to the shore.
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15:41:29 <Nat_aS> can't find reference, but I think the giant refrigerated wherehouse in Gloucester might be the largest in the world.
15:41:32 <ffpp> is there anybody using the nutracks grf ?
15:42:39 <Nat_aS> I take that back. there are probably bigger ones
15:43:39 <Nat_aS> anyways Fishing grounds > Processing plant > Market might be better than having a specialized fishing harbor
15:43:57 <Nat_aS> modern fishing ships process the fish in transit.
15:44:36 <Nat_aS> maybe keep the fishing harbor sprites as alternate seaports.
15:46:21 <andythenorth> that would be like going back to the way it was before it was the way it was the way it was before
15:46:32 <andythenorth> fishing chain has been changed n times, and isn't changing again ;)
15:46:37 <andythenorth> there was a war about it
15:46:51 <Nat_aS> I like how the fishing ports look
15:48:40 <Nat_aS> although they might be better as buildable ports
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15:56:27 <andythenorth> Pikka: so what will you do for trucks? Make HOVS, but smaller?
15:59:03 <Pikka> pretty small selection compared to what you've got in bandit
16:00:00 <ffpp> what does one have to do to get compatibility between nutracks and the 2cc metros ?
16:01:20 <andythenorth> BANDIT scares me :P
16:01:28 <andythenorth> I'm not sure why it has so many trucks
16:02:20 <Ammler> ffpp: metro tracks of 2cc v1 is part of nutracks
16:02:27 <michi_cc> Pikka: Shouldn't DD busses have a lower load amount than normal busses? Think of the jam on the stairs ;)
16:03:07 <Pikka> they need to have some advantage, michi :P
16:03:13 <andythenorth> actually they probably load faster
16:03:16 <Pikka> and the load amount only just offsets the capacity
16:03:26 <andythenorth> the load is split to two gangways
16:04:07 <andythenorth> and will have more tea
16:04:16 <andythenorth> what to do with BANDIT? draw a red line through it?
16:04:51 <ffpp> Ammler: thanks, I overlooked the 3rd rail construction option, I was always looking for 'metro' instead
16:04:52 <Pikka> I dunno. there's certainly room for a US/Au style truck set, with road trains and everything
16:05:23 <Pikka> I'm sticking strictly to UK-style, and conservatively at that, with hqovs.
16:05:28 <andythenorth> if I also add euro / brit trucks, it's going to be insane
16:05:42 * andythenorth has gameplay concerns
16:07:11 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -b *!~notme@cm12.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg
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16:10:20 <andythenorth> 11 of the BANDIT trucks (1 in 3) are <10t
16:10:31 <zhenya271201> тут русские есть
16:10:43 <Pikka> <10t is not really worth it gameplaywise, imo
16:10:55 <andythenorth> I want them for FIRS farms...but...
16:10:56 <Nat_aS> sorry zhenya271201 this is an english only channel
16:11:06 <Nat_aS> (I wish I knew how to say that in other languages)
16:11:20 <andythenorth> most of the smaller trucks come early in game, to represent intense competition between early truck mfrs
16:11:29 <andythenorth> I think that's maybe not going to work
16:11:38 <Pikka> well, looking at things for hqovs
16:11:54 <andythenorth> also, I have been shot down on the 'stats change over time' approach :P
16:12:24 <zhenya271201> and Russian where it by means of the translator
16:12:40 <Pikka> most trucks pre-1930 are really not haulage vehicles, they're delivery or local vehicles which would be represented by the station catchment area.
16:12:48 <Pikka> that's the way I figured it
16:12:56 <zhenya271201> мда но тут есть русские
16:13:13 <Pikka> any large deliveries, even just from one side of a town to the other, before that time would be done by train.
16:13:33 * andythenorth considers red line through trucks
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16:16:41 <zhenya271201> I немного know english
16:17:21 <zhenya271201> and where Russian chat
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16:19:16 <andythenorth> wicomico has come out of this badly, they're nearly out of business :P
16:20:03 <andythenorth> I remember why I have to have massive redundancy in truck models: drive-in roadstops :|
16:20:41 <andythenorth> small trucks without trailers for drive in stops
16:20:42 <Ammler> zhenya271201: maybe better try the russian ttd forums
16:20:50 <andythenorth> trucks with trailers for drive through
16:21:05 <andythenorth> it's apparently a requirement that trucks are available for drive-in stops
16:21:45 <Nat_aS> I wish long trucks could stop at drive-in stops
16:21:45 <Pikka> but you don't need that many for that, do you? :)
16:21:53 <Nat_aS> drive through are ugly
16:22:13 <andythenorth> I've deleted 4 smaller trucks
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16:25:23 <bremerjoe> Well it would surely look weird if you would imagine A truck with extra trailer trying to squeeze into such tiny stop in real life. ;)
16:27:26 <andythenorth> is upgrading stats really so evils?
16:28:21 <Pikka_> not necessarily, but it's not a very obvious mechanism, so it's probably to be avoided where possible.
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16:39:38 <Nat_aS> bremerjoe well IRL long trucks back into stops
16:39:58 <Nat_aS> drive through stops for trailer trucks are unrealistic.
16:40:36 <Nat_aS> (well I don't know how land trains unload, they probably either load from the side or disconnect the trailers and load them separately.)
16:41:43 <bremerjoe> They do but then the stops are considerably bigger. And unless they do side loading (which not all are capable of) they have to drop off the trailer at the ramp and move the truck to another ramp for unloading.
16:42:09 <Nat_aS> yeah that's what I though
16:42:30 <Nat_aS> probably be infuriatingly slow in OTTD and difficult to implement.
16:42:56 <Nat_aS> but trucks less than 1 tile long should be able to use drive in stops, even if they are articulated.
16:43:35 <bremerjoe> Most likely more than difficult and I doubt it would be worth the effort
16:43:37 <Nat_aS> a backing in animation might be hard though.
16:43:48 <Nat_aS> why CAN'T trains go backwards?
16:44:04 <bremerjoe> Because then we would start seeing a real life simulation which would be not as fun as the game is.
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16:45:36 <zhenya271201> and where to find the Russian server
16:46:16 <bremerjoe> And I simply guess that a huge amount of things would need to be rewritten to allo decoupling of trucks. But then we would also need proper ramps for unloading and so on so there are endless things that would need to be done without adding much to the fun in the game.
16:46:48 <Nat_aS> not really decoupling, just an animation of the truck turning around and backing in.
16:47:02 <Rubidium> zhenya271201: there's some Russian openttd/ttd forum. Maybe they got an IRC channel
16:47:41 <Nat_aS> same for backwards trains, some trains swap front and rear cars to give the illusion of moving backwards, but that only works if you have one type of car, why not swap all the cars in the train?
16:47:59 <Nat_aS> it's not about simulaiton, it's about eyecandy
16:48:32 <Nat_aS> eyecandy does add fun to the game
16:50:28 <bremerjoe> doesn't the game show the turning around? Have to look at it next time I play. ;) But real trains do move backwards. As far as I know heavy/long freight trains need to move backwards a bit before starting. This way the weight of the wagons comes into play only step by step while the couplings stretch out. GHard for me to describe in words though.
16:51:52 <Alberth> as for going backwards, reality has a bug with trains going backwards, but we cannot fix it
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16:53:30 <Nat_aS> In game trains can magicly reverse at the end of lines, or if you turn it on they can reverse at stations
16:53:47 <Nat_aS> but I always have ways for trans to turn around naturally because it looks nicer.
16:54:22 <Nat_aS> BUT the NA trainset has amtrack trains that can swap the sprites for front engine and rear car, so if you say only have passinger cars, the train will look like it is going backwards
16:54:27 <Nat_aS> like amtrack trains do.
16:54:49 <Nat_aS> I was asking, why not swap all the sprites on a train so any type of train can go backwards?
16:54:59 <Nat_aS> not really going backwards, just reversed sprites.
16:57:16 <Alberth> with different length wagons, or with multi-wagon sprites (ie sprites that look like a long one if the train goes straight)?
16:57:45 <Nat_aS> probably best for passenger trains then.
16:58:31 <Nat_aS> amtrack trains are designed to reverse in real life because they can't afford the luxury or turning around. trying to squeeze a bit of passinger traffic onto freight rail lines.
16:58:51 <Nat_aS> did you know the accela cannot reach it's designed speed, or tilt like it was designed to?
16:59:17 <Nat_aS> because the tracks it uses don't have enough straightaways, and there is not enough clearance in the corners to allow tilting
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17:00:20 <Nat_aS> it's almost like the F35 of trains.
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17:18:15 <Nat_aS> another overpriced bureaucratic nightmare that can't do what it was designed to do.
17:22:31 * andythenorth deletes 3 more trucks
17:23:52 <andythenorth> Pikka_: fake names don't float your boat?
17:25:07 <Pikka_> well, I think people identify things better with real names. it can give the set a bit more character.
17:25:46 <Alberth> that assumes that people actually know the names
17:25:59 <Pikka_> and it can give artists and set designers more direction in what they're creating :)
17:26:15 <Pikka_> if you model things after real vehicles
17:26:15 <andythenorth> NARS with fake names would be rubbish
17:26:45 <Alberth> oh, for the designers I can see a use
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17:27:06 * andythenorth ponders making BANDIT use real names
17:27:36 * Alberth would not see the difference between fake and real names
17:30:18 <Pikka_> for those who do know the vehicles, it provides mental shortcuts
17:30:44 <Pikka_> for those who don't know the vehicles, it means there's real-life information which they can look up and apply to the game, hopefully
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17:31:32 <Pikka_> if I'm using a train grf with 50 locomotives with completely made-up names and appearances, I have to go hunting for the locomotive I want for a particular job by reading the stats of the locomotives one by one
17:31:44 <Pikka_> and chances are, the next time I want that locomotive, I'll have forgotten which one it was
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17:31:57 <andythenorth> are trucks as distinctive as trains though?
17:32:33 <Alberth> Pikka_: indeed, that's what I have to do, which is why I hardly play with vehicle newgrfs
17:33:08 <Pikka_> Alberth: but if you know something about, say, the trains of france, and you're using a "real names" french set, you can go straight to the express locomotive, straight to the heavy freight locomotive, etc.
17:33:33 <Pikka_> andythenorth: I don't know
17:33:53 <Alberth> if only that 'if' was true for me :)
17:34:30 <Pikka_> I wouldn't have thought so, which is why I'm only having one rigid, one tipper, and one semi, per 20 year generation. :)
17:35:24 <Pikka_> alberth: and even if you don't know, you can go onto wikipedia and read about the french railways, and then apply that knowledge to the french openttd set.
17:35:25 <Alberth> I am more a 'build random nice transport links' player than a 'build a rail network'
17:36:30 <Alberth> ie I like the puzzling of connecting tracks, trains are needed mostly to 'create' the problem
17:38:38 <Alberth> I'd expect prefixes to identify similar types of trucks
17:39:15 <Alberth> and Mack B80 vs MackAC6 look completely different to me
17:39:45 <Pikka_> or just sort them by category, then intro date. by brand doesn't really make sense.
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17:40:32 <Pikka_> but I guess that's fine tuning
17:43:58 <andythenorth> maybe I should cop out and provide a parameter option
17:44:09 <andythenorth> often a sign of failing to decide :P
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17:54:41 <Nat_aS> Pikka, what about when you have 100 real locomotives and you can't pick a good one because you aren't a rail nerd, and the locomotives are based off of real world stats and thus aren't balanced for gameplay?
17:54:49 <Nat_aS> that's a more real problem IMO
17:55:37 <Pikka_> if the grf is badly designed there's not much you can do about that
17:56:02 <Pikka_> but some people are more interested in playing model trains than in playing an interesting game, so I guess those survey sets have their place too.
17:56:07 <Nat_aS> 2cc trainset, i'm looking at you.
17:56:20 <Nat_aS> god damn, how am I suposed to pick out a train in that?
17:57:00 <Nat_aS> personaly. I prefer the model train approach, BUT I would rather have psudo realistic trains
17:57:17 <Nat_aS> I don't like to think of my map as being the real world, but rather an alternate history or something.
17:57:37 <Nat_aS> and I still want them to be gameplay balanced because cheating isn't as fun
17:58:08 <Nat_aS> I don't want the game to be hard, but I want to feel like I earned that money and that my trains are providing a useful service.
18:03:03 <Nat_aS> is FIRS the only industry set with fish?
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18:06:14 <andythenorth> think ECS has it too
18:06:29 <Nat_aS> where can I find ECS documentation?
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18:08:27 * andythenorth thinks maybe the game doesn't need a truck set
18:11:04 <andythenorth> there are no obvious constraints to design the set against
18:12:46 <Nat_aS> also it seems ECS is even more excessive than FIRS
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18:18:23 <Nat_aS> andythenorth, would you consider making a light version of FIRS?
18:18:34 <Nat_aS> with the same chains, but shorter
18:18:44 <Nat_aS> like Raw > Processed > Market
18:19:20 <Nat_aS> but keeping supplies for boosted production, and other cool things like fish
18:19:50 <Nat_aS> also, have you considered making forests work like tropical sawmills?
18:22:18 <andythenorth> yes. I don't like it. It's an annoying behaviour
18:23:15 <michi_cc> Would be nice as an anti-tree-flood measure :)
18:23:29 <Nat_aS> and a nice lategame money sink
18:23:31 * andythenorth has removed 25% of the trucks from BANDIT
18:23:46 <Nat_aS> for people who complain that lategame is too easy
18:23:56 <Nat_aS> try rebuilding all the forests
18:24:03 <andythenorth> they should play lategame on a small crowded map
18:24:13 <andythenorth> with very high water + mountains
18:24:32 <michi_cc> It would need a new behaviour that's chopping trees more randomly than the tropic circle to look good though.
18:24:35 <Nat_aS> people who say OTTD is too easy don't play intresting maps.
18:24:59 <andythenorth> planting trees is dull
18:24:59 <Nat_aS> hmm, maybe some sort of exponential decay?
18:25:17 <Nat_aS> trees are cut at random, but closer to the mill is more frequent
18:25:20 <andythenorth> planting trees for tropical should actually be removed, it's a violation of game principles
18:25:27 <andythenorth> also funding industry should be removed
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18:25:43 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Why would you need to? Tree removal should just about match three growth rate.
18:25:48 <Nat_aS> so the forest would sort of fade instead of giant square chunks.
18:26:00 <Nat_aS> andythenorth what do you mean?
18:26:20 <andythenorth> micro-managing the planting of trees in tropic is not transportation
18:26:23 <Nat_aS> violation of game principles? The player has to be anti-environmental?
18:26:26 <andythenorth> funding industries is not transportation
18:26:33 <andythenorth> the game is a transportation game
18:26:49 <Nat_aS> Humbug, I think you should be able to buy stock in industries like in Railroad Tycoon.
18:26:52 <andythenorth> this is the reason given for multiple ideas being undesirable
18:27:22 <Nat_aS> maybe the regional inspector can get mad at you if you form a vertical monopoly.
18:28:23 <Nat_aS> maybe the company that makes engines for you could exist on the map, and you could buy stock in them, or even send them engineering supplies for a discount on trains.
18:37:04 <Pinkbeast> I think this may get a bit circular; X should not be in the game because it's a transportation game. How do we know it is? Because X is not in the game. :-)
18:38:05 <Nat_aS> it also works in the other direction. X should be in the game because it is related to transportation, how do we know it is? Because X is in the game :P
18:38:27 <Nat_aS> what company do you know operates trains, trucks, buses, ships, and airlines?
18:38:48 <Nat_aS> I think there are more examples of train companies that fund industries than there are of train companies that are also airlines.
18:40:42 <Pinkbeast> British Rail had sea services; all the Big Four ran feeder bus services; the GWR and LMS ran Railway Air Services.
18:40:59 <andythenorth> pipelines are not in the game because they are not transportation
18:41:09 <andythenorth> industry ownership is not in because it's not transportation
18:41:21 <andythenorth> stock market / more sophisticated money - not in because not transportation
18:41:23 <Pinkbeast> Yabbut pipelines would be a fine thing and some continuous-transport modes would be transportation...
18:41:45 <Nat_aS> pipelines are transportion
18:41:54 <Nat_aS> they are not in the game because they do not fit the economic model.
18:43:10 <Nat_aS> how would you get paid?
18:44:15 <Nat_aS> "Not transportation" is a weak argument, and in the pipeline case it is completely fallacious. Pipelines transport liquids, they are the most efficient method of doing so.
18:44:26 <Pinkbeast> Err every time a cargo packet slurps through the pipeline? I don't see the difficulty there.
18:45:15 <Nat_aS> they are not in the game because they don't fit the economic model well, new cases would have to be invented. It would pretty much be constant profit for free once set up.
18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24057 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt ukrainian.txt unfinished/thai.txt welsh.txt):
18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 7 changes by Parastais
18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: thai - 41 changes by kenny
18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 2 changes by edd_k
18:45:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: welsh - 3 changes by kazzie
18:45:50 <andythenorth> 'profit for free' < unlike coal trains? :P
18:45:59 <Pinkbeast> That seems to be a common argument but frankly given the situation in vanilla where you find a coalmine, a power station, slap down two stations and what andy has written more tersely
18:46:55 <Nat_aS> Imagine constant coal trains that never break down, have a constant flow in one direction, don't take up platform space, ect ect
18:47:07 <Pinkbeast> Pipelines could be given (somewhat artificial, yes) downsides to bring them into balance, like those tree-loving lunatics in towns objecting strongly to overground pipelines in their area... or capacity upgrades being much more difficult than buying an extra train.
18:47:13 <Nat_aS> I mean I supose pumps could have maintanance costs and breakdowns.
18:47:56 <Nat_aS> but they would offer massive advantages over trains due to the dirasticly simplified infrastructure.
18:48:18 <Nat_aS> anyways, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but that's the reason they are not in the game
18:48:23 <Nat_aS> not because they don't transport things
18:48:31 <Nat_aS> because they literally do.
18:48:47 <Pinkbeast> I think actually they're not in the game because no-one can be arsed to code them up.
18:49:07 <Nat_aS> they would require a whole new class of thing, and a new ecomonic model
18:49:16 <Pinkbeast> I really doubt if someone came up with a working continuous-transport implementation to the OTTD coding style etc etc, it would be rejected.
18:49:20 <Pinkbeast> What new economic model?
18:49:57 <Pinkbeast> Coal goes onto a train at A and comes off it at B. Oil goes into a pipe at A and comes out it at B. You get paid. Same as before.
18:49:59 <Nat_aS> well oil by pipe would have to pay less than oil by train because of the reduced infrastructure.
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18:50:15 <Nat_aS> or there would be no reason to ever build oil trains.
18:51:00 <Pinkbeast> Well, of course, oil doesn't now go by train very often... but in the game, oil trains might often use your existing infrastructure (and besides in vanilla it's not like it costs anything to maintain...)
18:51:05 <Nat_aS> but I supose that might not be bad, I mean most of the time IRL oil is transported by boat or popeline.
18:51:43 <Nat_aS> so yeah, to implement it, I'd just make pumps work like trains, new ones get invented as time progresses, and they have a running cost.
18:51:54 <Nat_aS> and pumps have to be built ever x amount of tiles
18:52:01 <Pinkbeast> And IRL there isn't a constant need to upgrade capacity on pipelines. Build a railway, you can run more trains down it. Build a pipe, and you want to pipe more oil? Whoops, new pipe.
18:52:25 <Nat_aS> yeah, upgrading pipes would happen too I guess.
18:52:40 <Nat_aS> get some coders on this now then!
18:52:48 <Pinkbeast> And if you had to tunnel past towns... whoops, expense city. It could be made something that works sometimes but not always.
18:52:53 <Nat_aS> I'll make sprites for it!
18:54:06 <Nat_aS> also unlike trains, pipes would only be able to carry water or oil
18:54:47 <Pinkbeast> And alcohol and milk. :-)
18:55:13 <Nat_aS> those are transported by bottle IRL for a reason.
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19:17:26 <LordAro> if you are reading this, my debian unstable installation is apparently working :)
19:17:50 <Pinkbeast> And if you are reading this, my debian oldstable installation is still working.
19:18:43 <Nat_aS> if you are reading this, my ubuntu installation has not died yet :p
19:18:43 * Pinkbeast looks smug as if Aro's computer actually just exploded
19:19:00 <Nat_aS> god I have no idea how this computer still works
19:19:16 <Nat_aS> (works is a very generous term here)
19:19:48 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
19:20:09 <LordAro> ...maybe its not working as well as intended :D
19:20:27 * Pinkbeast actually looks smug now.
19:21:47 <Nat_aS> it was a gaming laptop back in 2007, in 2009 I carried it in my backpack across the length of the united states almost twice. Most of the external parts are busted, the battery is at critical, the plug does not supply power if kinked the wrong way, the CD tray wont stay closed, the arrow keys do not work because I spilled beer on them (i'm glad I have not had to use the terminal) and the hinge is cracked, preventing me from safely folding it
19:21:54 <Nat_aS> AND IT STILL RUNS UNIX
19:22:06 <Nat_aS> good thing I have a nice new computer for windows.
19:22:32 <telanus1> Nat_as: Sound like my backup cellphone
19:32:19 <Nat_aS> does android count as unix?
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19:32:45 <Nat_aS> my backup phone is the same as my current one, BUT it has a huge crack in the touch screen
19:32:49 <Nat_aS> so I gave it to my brother.
19:34:55 <telanus1> mine's an old 6610: It's fallen into pepsi, had a swim at the deep-end of the pool, and fell out while mountaineering. Now it works when it wants too. Sux when it decide to switch off in the middle of a call
19:35:18 <Alberth> 'unix' is defined as just a set of kernel primitives mostly, so android probably counts as such, technically
19:35:48 <Alberth> saves on the phone bill :p
19:36:36 <__ln__> but UNIX® is a different thing
19:37:05 <Nat_aS> i like how the poster child for free software was invented by ATT
19:39:16 <frosch123> does it provide a system v api? :p
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19:58:59 <Zuu> And then there is poxis Unix.
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21:27:08 <FLHerne> Has anyone managed to merge any of the autotimetabling patches with recent Cargodist? I keep failing with Slim Timetable Separation, and the other one is thousands of revisions behind trunk :-(
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22:01:40 <FLHerne> It's been a bit quiet on her for the last 2 hours :P
22:02:06 <Terkhen> FLHerne: to my knowledge the only custom build updated recently is chill's patchpack; I don't know what patches it includes, though
22:05:35 <FLHerne> Terkhen: That's also 1.5k revisions behind trunk :-(
22:06:17 <FLHerne> Which is why I decided to make my own patchpack, but I can't get all the patches I want to play nicely :-P
22:07:26 <FLHerne> Mostly working, I just need to get More Heightlevels and a timetable patch in, then I'll have enough features to get away from Chill's pack, which is what I have atm
22:09:42 <bremerjoe> Is the patchpack really so good? I know he invests a lot of time apparently and most of the patches sound amazing but as far as I understand you do not even have additional zoom levels in the latest Version of CPP?
22:12:45 <FLHerne> It's a brilliant pack - CargoDist, bridge/tunnel signals, more heightlevels, better timetabling, progsigs etc all in one patch - I could never go back to trunk OTTD now :P
22:13:30 <FLHerne> Unfortunately, it is quite a long way behind trunk in other things, so no rivers, autorefit etc
22:14:42 <FLHerne> Now some GRFs have dropped support so they can use the new features, I've started trying to make my own, but mainly it's just shown me how much work ChillCore must have put in
22:15:42 <FLHerne> The little things in his version like non-lethal road crossings just aren't obvious until you don't have them anymore
22:26:47 <bremerjoe> To be honest the extra zoom and the rivers were some of the best additions for me as a player. Missing out on those would s***. I will keep sticking to the cargodist version I am playing currently and keep my eyes open for changes on CPP. ;)
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22:45:20 <Nat_aS> late to the party, but cargodist is the most important feature for me
22:45:25 <Nat_aS> what are good packs that include it?
22:45:30 <Nat_aS> and are up to date with everything else?
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22:57:36 <bremerjoe> I simply use the latest precompiled version from the CargoDist thread. Would not be able to compile my own version I am afraid so I am grateful if someone precompiles them for noobs like me.
22:57:46 <bremerjoe> Good night Terkhen!
22:58:10 <Nat_aS> yeah but what about other patches?
22:59:30 <Zuu> Playing CargoDist has the adventage of having compile farm binaries and thus have integration with OTTDAU which is good for someone lazy like me. ;-)
23:00:01 <Nat_aS> compile farm bianaries?
23:00:11 <bremerjoe> Unfortunately it seems that the best/most complete pack is CPP which is a bit behind. Ca't even imagine how much work it has to be to merge various patches written by people in different styles, and in the end still making all of them work.
23:00:58 <Zuu> Though, the last farm build from cargodist seem to be from 2011-06-05.
23:01:23 <Zuu> Nat_aS: A compile farm is a computer/system with compilers for many different targets (eg. linux, windows etc.)
23:01:57 <bremerjoe> Compile farm is a setup that I think is provided by the ottdcoop crew or at least some other devs that takes the patch and merges it with the game. It then provides "ready to go"versions that you can just start playing with.
23:02:01 <Zuu> OpenTTD have a compile farm that builds stables and nightlies.
23:02:37 <Nat_aS> I do enjoy that functonality
23:02:52 <Nat_aS> esp since the cargodist package comes with TTD Grfs
23:03:01 <Nat_aS> (which I tohught they weren't suposed to do :P)
23:03:12 <Zuu> That sounds like something has gone wrong.
23:03:54 <bremerjoe> When checking the cargodist release directory I see latest was March 16th this year
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23:08:12 <bremerjoe> Zuu: You are talking chinese to me ;)
23:08:56 <Zuu> I'm talking about the interface used by OTTDAU to figure out about where to download files.
23:11:11 * Zuu tries to find a good place to file a report to #openttdcoop
23:12:18 <bremerjoe> Joerg chuckles at the name OTTDAU due to the german meaning of DAU
23:13:04 * Zuu has been told about DAU by some fellow German people in the channel.
23:14:27 <Zuu> anyway, it dosen't have to be solved right now. It reports the latest cargodist to be from june 2011, so it has apparently been broken for a while.
23:14:32 *** kkb110_ has joined #openttd
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23:47:28 <bremerjoe> eyes semms to become square shaped, time for bed. good night y'all!
continue to next day ⏵
