IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-03-18
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01:04:59 <krinn> hi, just passing by to report a bug in railpathfinder, who made it ?
01:05:13 <krinn> the AI lib, not openttd rail pathfinder
01:08:25 <krinn> hmm ok too late, hope truebrain look at log :P
01:09:30 <krinn> line 87 & 106: <this._cost_diagonal_tile> --> <this._main._cost_diagonal_tile>
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01:40:55 <Lejving> Hello. I just installed Open TTD and I kinda find everything very confusing, is there some guide that teaches me the basics somewhere?
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07:40:44 <Rubidium> morning andythenorth
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08:58:42 <CornishPasty> Anybody know how to change the climate on a dedicated server?
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10:22:50 <rane> CornishPasty: you mean landscape?
10:23:08 <rane> or you probably don't have the problem anymore
10:28:52 <CornishPasty> rane: Yeah, from temperate to toy land or whatever...
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10:50:48 <Alberth> in the openttd.cfg "[game_creation]" section, there is a setting 'landscape = temperate'. You should be able to change that from the console
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11:29:57 <FLHerne> Does anyone know how to use Slim Timetable Separation?
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11:32:51 <FLHerne> Oh well, it just crashed. Probably didn't like being merged with Cargodist
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11:37:21 <rane> for some reason openttd is performing quite poorly on os x for me
11:41:30 <MNIM> I thought it was quite clear that you OSX is NOT supported by ottd.
11:41:54 <rane> oh? hasn't been clear at all
11:42:57 <__ln__> MNIM: what does that sentence mean?
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11:45:17 * MNIM removes 'you' from that sentence
11:45:28 <MNIM> sorry, early morning to me >.>
11:47:28 <Alberth> rane: there are a number of bugs in the OSX version that we cannot fix due to lack of an OSX developer
11:48:07 <__ln__> however poor performance is not one of the known bugs.
11:49:03 <__ln__> if "performing quite poorly" means it's slow.
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11:58:05 <frosch123> yay, this flash-blocking ff add-on seems to work :)
12:19:35 <Arafangion> Alberth: What's the most significant bug?
12:20:03 <planetmaker> crash. when using cmd+h
12:20:21 <planetmaker> might be when using fullscreen only
12:21:09 <planetmaker> and lack of support for the bootstrap which asks to grab base sets, if not found
12:21:11 <Arafangion> I assume pre-lion fullscreen, but curious. Well, the user can simply avoid that command, surely?
12:21:23 <planetmaker> no. Lion full screen
12:21:33 <planetmaker> osx lion is... a problem
12:21:39 <Arafangion> Lion fullscreen is *useless* :(
12:22:07 <planetmaker> you do not want to forbid users the equivalent of alt+tab to cycle through applications?
12:22:27 <planetmaker> no, that's a bug, and it's not something you can say 'avoid please'
12:22:34 <Arafangion> planetmaker: I don't do that by using cmd+h, though - I use cmd+tab and cmd+tilde.
12:22:57 <planetmaker> I use neither. But that doesn't make it less serious
12:23:49 <planetmaker> the bootstrap with auto-install of base sets might be as much needed, though
12:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> for "general browsing" i use konqueror with plugins and javascript disabled. only for pages which actually require flash i use firefox as alternative browser.
12:24:14 <Arafangion> Eddi|zuHause: I use chromium.
12:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> not quite the point :)
12:25:01 <Arafangion> planetmaker: I wish I had a personal (as opposed to business) mac I could help contribute to openttd with. :(
12:25:17 <Arafangion> Eddi|zuHause: Well, it's webkit based, and works quite well with flash :)
12:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Arafangion: the point was to _disable_ flash, unless really necessary
12:26:23 <Arafangion> Eddi|zuHause: Fair enough.
12:26:32 <Arafangion> It's a buggy peice of crap.
12:26:41 <__ln__> unfortunately *owning* a mac is not quite enough for making useful contributions.
12:26:55 <Arafangion> __ln__: I'm also a dev.
12:27:04 <Arafangion> __ln__: But time's a premium. :(
12:28:20 <Arafangion> Unfortunately, dev'ing on an actual mac's the only practical way to do mac dev. :(
12:32:32 <planetmaker> yes. that's the bad thing. Though that's nearly generally true
12:33:01 <Alberth> preferably more than one, as what works on one may not work at another
12:33:20 <Arafangion> What if you were to forget the mac UI, and provide it as an X11 app?
12:33:28 <Arafangion> I mean, you guys do your own UI anyway?
12:34:14 <Arafangion> Bah, sucky either way, then?
12:35:01 <TinoDidriksen> I wish I had more time so I could make the Qt front-end...
12:35:02 <planetmaker> the osx gui doesn't quite suck. But mostly it misses adoption to the constant API changes
12:35:05 <Alberth> well, Apple did not approve the software, so don't expect it to run :p
12:35:41 <Arafangion> TinoDidriksen: Intruguing idea! Wouldn't rendering performance then suck, though?
12:36:00 <Alberth> Qt is just another X11 frontend
12:36:01 * Arafangion uses OpenTTD on an Atom D525... It definetly takes it to its limits.
12:36:11 <TinoDidriksen> Arafangion, Qt QGraphicsView uses OpenGL
12:36:23 <Arafangion> TinoDidriksen: Hmm, nice.
12:37:10 <Alberth> not really, 3D technology is not designed to just push lots of pictures to the screen
12:37:38 <Arafangion> Alberth: No, but that's how it's used these days!?
12:38:31 <Alberth> (don't understand the question)
12:39:37 <Arafangion> Alberth: I meant, that none-the-less, OpenGL's tended to be used for graphics acceleration of 2D graphics, simply because there are very few other *portable* 2D graphics frameworks.
12:39:55 <Arafangion> Certainly none that are accelerated.
12:41:34 <Alberth> with OpenTTD, you can safely remove 'accelerated' :D you need the CPU as well to render the display as I have heard.
12:42:27 <Arafangion> Alberth: Unfortunate. :)
12:55:23 <Rubidium> Alberth: 8bpp palette animation is GPU accelerated on those GPUs that support it, i.e. low end and old GPUs
12:56:13 <Rubidium> and only on OSes that have a proper fallback when the hardware does not provide the feature
12:58:02 <Alberth> weren't the NewGRF call chains a problem in OpenGL ?
12:58:39 <Rubidium> no clue what the problems were
12:58:50 <Rubidium> it was merely slower for me
13:00:31 <frosch123> wasn't the problem that we could not quite well create texture atlases from the sprites?
13:09:08 <michi_cc> Limiting factor seems to be bandwidth to the video card. Texture atlases stored in card memory effectivly avoid that, but how to create an atlas if you have no clue at all about the access pattern?
13:10:33 <michi_cc> And storing each and every sprite as a separate texture results in lots of overhead (switching textures is often not very fast).
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13:33:25 <Arafangion> michi_cc: Could you mitigate that with display lists?
13:33:49 <Arafangion> michi_cc: Given that the sprites are very small.
13:33:59 <Arafangion> (ie, you could manually render them)
13:34:20 <michi_cc> I don't think one display list per sprite would do any good at all.
13:35:04 <Arafangion> How many sprites are we talking about?
13:35:49 <michi_cc> NewGRFs can display any arbitrary sprite at any time, there is nothing you can group them by. There are things like spritesets, but nothing guarantees that it's the same set every time.
13:36:06 <Arafangion> Ah, that complicates it.
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13:39:17 <Rubidium> think more about thousands of sprites
13:39:35 <michi_cc> The baseset only is somewhere around 5000 sprites, and with NewGRFs that can be *a lot* more. The unfinished CETS is at *62000* right now.
13:39:57 <glx> including pseudosprites ?
13:40:18 <michi_cc> Total is a bit over 100k :)
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13:48:48 <planetmaker> michi_cc: it's rather 10k sprites for a base set
13:49:00 <planetmaker> it's along 1000 sprites for the rivers alone
13:49:43 <planetmaker> though not all 10k sprites are loaded concurrently
13:49:50 <planetmaker> but it's like 7k or so
13:49:57 <michi_cc> Drawing doesnt't care about total sprites though, only about sprites per climate.
13:50:00 <planetmaker> 5k in the base grf and 2k in the extra. maybe.
13:53:26 <V453000> 1000 sprites for rivers? o_O
13:56:35 <andythenorth> 37k lines code for BANDIT
13:56:45 <planetmaker> (4 sides + 4 corners + 4 corners) * 5 slopes * 2 for river mouths * 9 terrains
13:56:49 <planetmaker> = 1080 real sprites
13:56:58 <andythenorth> and what fun they were to draw too :P
13:58:00 <planetmaker> canals are only 1/5 of that on top
13:58:19 <planetmaker> oh. And I missed the water sprites
13:58:37 <planetmaker> with rocks on slopes. So... again some more. 4 * 16 random
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13:59:02 <planetmaker> so I guess we have 1.5k real sprites for waterfeatures in the extra grf
14:00:56 <V453000> hm I guess it isnt that much in the end
14:01:08 <V453000> counting the amount that nuts has
14:01:40 <V453000> but considering that it is "just rivers" opposed to tons of trains .. :D
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14:28:24 <drac_boy> any of you know if its possible to compile the source in some way to stop looking for other existing folders and mess up the newgrf+multiplayer settings in the process?
14:29:32 <planetmaker> my settings are never messed up by compilation
14:29:41 <planetmaker> and I didn't do anything fancy
14:29:57 <planetmaker> or anything special at all
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14:30:53 <drac_boy> planetmaker well then why is it that as soon as I run 1.2.0-RC2 it messed up the two settings for 1.1.5 even although it was a complete different folder+cfg?
14:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well, my settings are "messed up" when switching between trunk an chillpp
14:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> in this instance the "autosave interval" option, which contains the trunk-invalid values "weekly" and "daily"
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14:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and trunk has the bug that it doesn't reset the value to default (monthly), but to 0 (off)
14:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: most likely you used a config that you didn't think you used
14:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: use the "-c <path/file.cfg>" option if in doubt
14:38:56 <drac_boy> eddi you mean the newer builds somehow are stopping looking in their own local folder first as they used to?
14:39:03 <drac_boy> hm...that could explain this
14:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "own folder" was never first. afair the order is "current working directory", "user directory", "binary directory"
14:40:01 <drac_boy> well..the first one...whatever term you want to define it as :)
14:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> then maybe you didn't set the working directory properyl
14:40:56 <drac_boy> I'm doing the same thing I've always done with prior versions
14:40:59 <andythenorth> I need to adjust TE
14:41:02 <drac_boy> poor you andythenorth :-|
14:41:51 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you are liking the maths...what am I doing wrong? :(
14:42:11 <andythenorth> when I test my formula in excel it works
14:42:21 <andythenorth> but I'm coming out with ridiculously low T/E values
14:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> checked integer vs. float math yet?
14:43:21 <andythenorth> also, the weights are insanely wrong there
14:43:26 <andythenorth> so that's probably the cause
14:43:33 <andythenorth> total_weight is much too high
14:43:36 <andythenorth> I'll fix that first :P
14:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> my calculation looks like this: file.write(' tractive_effort_coefficient: %s;\n'%('0' if traction_type in ["Wagon","Wagon/Narrow"] else '1.0*%s/%s/10'%(max_te,weight),))
14:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> where max_te is in kN and weight is in t
14:46:51 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.0 is a magic constant to ensure float math, and 10 is earth's acceleration
14:47:08 <andythenorth> I'll fix my weight problem first
14:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> using 9.81 there caused wrong values
14:48:56 <andythenorth> might be because weights are 1/4 in some places, not others
14:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> nml handles that
14:49:29 <andythenorth> not inside my python though :P
14:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> do yourself a favour and keep everything in "sane" units
14:51:00 <andythenorth> i.e. work only in t?
14:51:07 <andythenorth> then go to 1/4t only where needed?
14:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't need to go 1/4t anywhere
14:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because nml does that for you
14:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> file.write(' weight: %s tons;\n'%(weight,))
14:52:15 <andythenorth> most of them require nfo-style units
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14:52:58 <Eddi|zuHause> need a way to apply unit conversion there too
14:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> [GRF] Assembling openttd.nfo
14:58:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Error on sprite 3314.
14:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> //!!Error (141): ID 08 out of valid range (00..07).
14:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 3314 * 7 03 05 01 08 00 17 00
15:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and why does that prevent openttd from compiling, if there was an error in grf processing?!?
15:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> > nforenum --version
15:01:29 <Eddi|zuHause> NFORenum 6.0.0 r924 - Copyright (C) 2004-2012 by Dale McCoy
15:08:48 <Rubidium> because in the "normal" use case of compiling that for distros failing is better
15:10:16 <Eddi|zuHause> imho nforenum is way too strict here, that should merely be a warning
15:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so which grfcodec version do i need?
15:11:38 <Rubidium> well, for me it compiles just fine so I have no idea what goes wrong for you
15:11:46 <Rubidium> maybe you've got an older nforenum somewhere?
15:13:16 <Alberth> or an old ~/.nfo<something> folder ?
15:13:56 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, has files from 31 oct 2010 in it
15:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause> but still, out-of-range should only be a warning
15:29:26 * andythenorth is baffled still
15:29:44 <andythenorth> "10 * (adjusted_te_coefficient / 255) * total_weight" produces the correct result
15:29:57 <andythenorth> but returning just "adjusted_te_coefficient" to the cb doesn't
15:33:21 <Alberth> and 10 * (adjusted_te_coefficient // 255) * total_weight ? (add a 'floor' to the division)
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15:36:21 <Alberth> and perhaps clamp 10 * (...) too?
15:47:44 <andythenorth> it's almost as though I've read the spec wrong :P
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15:49:50 <Djohaal> wow, this palce is crowded compared to the simutrans IRC o.o
15:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you want rounding, you must do the / as the last operation
15:50:27 <Alberth> Djohaal: most people don't say anything at all :)
15:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> so (10*te*weight)//255
15:52:08 <Djohaal> it's 118 users opposed to
15:53:19 <andythenorth> I failed to explain that the "(10*te*weight)//255" is just a check I'm printing out ;)
15:53:42 <andythenorth> and it's using the correct value
16:00:43 * andythenorth wonders if the game could be fixed
16:01:02 <andythenorth> dicking around with TE and weight for articulated vehicles is becoming....blearch
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16:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there's nothing preventing the game from looping over all articulated parts and summing up TE itself
16:04:41 <andythenorth> what about weight?
16:04:54 <andythenorth> the issue I have is that I have to put all the weight onto the lead vehicle
16:04:59 <andythenorth> which results in insane TE
16:05:25 <andythenorth> then I have to account for refitting to variable numbers of trailers, which causes variable consist weight
16:05:39 <andythenorth> and I have to account for weight transfer from trailers to tractor unit
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16:07:59 <andythenorth> wonder if some of my calculations are being shafted by non-floating maths in game
16:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you do it like me, and count max_te in kN until the very end, at least the adjusting for different weight is trivial
16:09:10 * andythenorth reads code from Eddi|zuHause again
16:11:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: where is max_te defined / derived?
16:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's taken directly from the tracking table
16:11:49 <andythenorth> so you know the TE values
16:12:10 * andythenorth doesn't know them :P
16:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> some entries in the tracking table are fixed numbers (from wikipedia), others are calculated ones (e.g. from MB's forum post)
16:12:38 <andythenorth> I just want to normalise the TE value by only using the weight of the lead vehicle
16:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> others are just taking weight*acceleration
16:13:24 <andythenorth> TE is: 10 * coeff * weight ?
16:13:27 <andythenorth> according to nfo spec
16:13:59 <andythenorth> so if lead vehicle weight is 10 and total weight is 30
16:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have 100t and 1.1m/s^2 acceleration, then you have 110kN te
16:14:27 <andythenorth> 10 * (coeff / 3) * weight should get me the correct result
16:14:46 <andythenorth> 3 being derived from "total weight / lead vehicle weight"
16:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: handle the two steps separately
16:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause> in the first step you calculate TE in kN of each individual vehicle (0 for wagons)
16:15:53 <Eddi|zuHause> in the second step, sum up all values from the articulated parts
16:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> in the third step, calculate the coefficient from the total values
16:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> do not try to merge these steps into one
16:16:31 <andythenorth> so I have to know TE?
16:16:46 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can calculate TE by weight*acceleration
16:16:56 <andythenorth> acceleration is derived from?
16:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause> some meaningful default value
16:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "from 0 to 100 in x seconds"
16:17:31 <andythenorth> is it 0 for unpowered vehicles?
16:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just throw some arbitrary value as acceleration, like 3, or 2.5
16:18:38 <andythenorth> you know that default game uses ~3 for RVs?
16:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.1 is the value of some commuter trains from CETS
16:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know that
16:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> but it sounds like some roughly sensible guessed value
16:19:08 <andythenorth> weight * 3 will give you TE for the default RVs
16:19:13 <andythenorth> give or take some rounding
16:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> for rail vehicles it should be less
16:20:27 <andythenorth> total TE is just "lead vehicle weight * 3" in that case
16:21:11 <andythenorth> and to express that as the coefficient?
16:21:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the formula i posted earlier
16:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.0*te*weight/10
16:22:33 <andythenorth> can't weight be resolved out?
16:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause> '1.0*%s/%s/10'%(max_te,weight)
16:23:17 <andythenorth> if te = weight * 3?
16:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> because here it's the total consist weight
16:26:00 <andythenorth> do I need some parentheses in my calculation?
16:26:31 <andythenorth> adjusted_te_coefficient = 1.0 * total_te / total_weight / 10
16:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as it's only * and /, it will be evaluated from left to right
16:27:13 * andythenorth failed that recent facebook test :P
16:27:27 <valhallasw> that's probably because that facebook test was wrong
16:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what facebook test?
16:28:11 <valhallasw> I think it was something like 'what does a/b*c evaluate to'
16:28:23 <valhallasw> but slightly more ambiguous
16:28:35 <andythenorth> 3 * 40 + 1 or something
16:28:35 <valhallasw> (I think there was an operator missing)
16:28:39 <andythenorth> anyway I got it wrong
16:28:56 <andythenorth> ok, so all the values are the same as before
16:29:00 <andythenorth> which is reassuring
16:29:30 <valhallasw> anyway; adding parentheses to clarify meaning is always a good idea ;-)
16:29:40 <Djohaal> LOCAL AUTHORITY Y U HATE ME SO MUCH
16:29:48 <valhallasw> because you're screaming
16:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> because you have bad grammar
16:30:15 <valhallasw> and because you're using memes incorrectly
16:31:27 <andythenorth> so part of the problem is that my trucks are severely under-weight
16:32:28 <Eddi|zuHause> some articulated trucks rely on the weight of the load for proper TE
16:32:52 <andythenorth> and of the trailer
16:32:57 <Eddi|zuHause> they can even lift an axle to increase it
16:32:59 <andythenorth> I need to write more code :P
16:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so lead_TE = 3*(lead_weight + 0.5*trailer_weight)
16:34:25 <Scuddles> what ridiculous vehicle does pj1k need next
16:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i never undertood why it's called pj1k when it's actually ukrs2
16:35:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's advertised everywhere as such
16:37:08 <Scuddles> besides, the grf is still called proj1000.grf
16:37:27 <Scuddles> I meant hipster instead of habit
16:37:36 <Scuddles> ukrs2 is sooo mainstream
16:37:54 <Scuddles> no photogrey minus points
16:37:54 * andythenorth discovers some errors
16:38:43 <andythenorth> calculating weight as a function of length is maybe not that smart
16:38:58 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 213.36
16:38:59 <andythenorth> especially when the length is deliberately set incorrectly
16:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to consider the additional weight of the engine
16:41:28 <andythenorth> it might be easier to just manually set weights
16:41:46 <andythenorth> deriving everything can have unexpected consequences when you introduce cheating further up the chain :P
16:42:40 <andythenorth> I have to cheat vehicle length for articulated trucks
16:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that usually means that you do a calculation step too early in the chain
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16:47:05 <andythenorth> it would be solved if vehicles had two length values
16:47:10 <andythenorth> which I guess is my next step :P
16:47:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24041 /branches/1.2/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
16:47:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
16:47:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: After opening a text window with the monospaced font, all other text started glitching (r24038)
16:47:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Feature: Allow display of baseset textfiles (r24037)
16:54:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24042 /trunk/src/lang/ (41 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
16:54:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
16:54:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
16:54:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by OliTTD, glx
16:54:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by Brumi
16:54:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
16:54:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:00:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24043 /branches/1.2/src/lang/ (49 files): [1.2] -Backport from trunk: string updates
17:01:02 <Djohaal> is cargodist multiplayer compatible?
17:01:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Djohaal: it should be, as long as all players have the same cargodist version
17:02:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Djohaal: it's only half as fun without infrastructure sharing, though
17:02:01 <Djohaal> also, does openTTD auto sync contents between players of playing on multiplayer?
17:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd does not "sync" contents other than on join
17:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it does all calculations on every client
17:02:52 <Djohaal> but I mean, if I have X,Y and Z packs installed, will it tell anyone who joins my game to download those packs?
17:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and throws one out when it's not in sync
17:03:06 <Djohaal> or we have to sync content packs manually/
17:03:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it does for NewGRFs, but not for patches like CargoDist
17:04:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24044 /branches/1.2/src/lang/unfinished/ (12 files): [1.2] -Fix: forgot some languages
17:04:26 <Djohaal> yeah I'm talking about newGRFs
17:05:36 <Rubidium> OpenTTD doesn't sync NewGRFs on join. It will just say you don't have the right ones before joining and gives you the option to try to download them from the ingame content system
17:05:50 <Rubidium> if it's not found there, the user has to download it themselves
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17:08:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24045 /branches/1.2/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.2] -Update: some documentation
17:11:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Oookay, I have no idea what caused that collision. Must be a quirk of the PF signal. All I was doing was adding more station tiles at the end and removing them from the start (which leaves ordinary track, but the PF signal must see that as remove+add)
17:11:41 <Djohaal> also, is shared infrastructure another OpenTTD mod or just a setting?
17:13:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r24046 /tags/1.2.0-RC3/: -Release: 1.2.0-RC3
17:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a separate (and very old) patch
17:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's also a very incomplete feature
17:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... we need a solution for the purchase list column width, other than applying spaces to strings
17:24:24 <Rubidium> why not limit yourself to ~60 pixels?
17:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> because a 16lu vehicle is 65 pixels
17:25:23 <Eddi|zuHause> plus a few pixels for borders
17:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking just a "misc" property like the depot offset
17:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and then it uses the maximum over all GRFs
17:29:00 <Rubidium> then in no time it'll be at least 8*32 pixels wide
17:29:11 <Rubidium> because they want to show their complete train
17:29:36 <Djohaal> are there any industry chain newGRFs? I can't seem to find anything
17:32:06 <Rubidium> Djohaal: I can't think of a set that doesn't have a chain
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17:32:40 <Djohaal> I guess their names were cryptic because I didn't find any
17:32:46 <Djohaal> also, can I load them on a game that already started?
17:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so? i don't see the problem
17:35:20 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: get a piece of paper with lines on it
17:35:31 <Rubidium> write a random letter at the begin and end of each line
17:35:52 <Rubidium> now... can you easily spot which letter at the end belongs to a letter at the front?
17:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: then enforce a maximum
17:36:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but people could do that already anyway
17:36:48 <Rubidium> you'll simply get so much gray void that it becomes very hard to link things to eachother
17:36:53 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but only GRF local
17:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: just spaces are a notoriously unreliable way to align things
17:37:31 <Rubidium> instead of foo's single train that is 256 pixels long and thus aligns the rest at 256 pixels as well
17:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: then treat the alignment property also grf-local. "works" for the depot offset :)
17:38:20 <michi_cc> Aren't we stripping that out?
17:38:45 <michi_cc> Or wasn't that for the vehicle list? I don't remember anymore.
17:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see support for SETX in nml
17:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there was quite some controversy about SETX
17:40:46 <Alberth> setx is useless with variable sized fonts
17:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the purchase sprites don't depend on font size (yet)
17:44:31 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, michi_cc: the new vehicle speed roundings seem fine. except for the higher speeds it's usually 1 too high (201, 331, etc.)
17:45:21 <michi_cc> Well, there's only so much you can do with rounding if you have a coarser unit in there.
17:45:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but i guess that's the effect of the kmh-ish->kmh conversion
17:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and the maintenance costs are broken, it lists them all as 0... not sure why
17:47:46 <Djohaal> ECS farms don't have those huge cool fields :(
17:47:51 <andythenorth> SETX is bollocks
17:48:05 <andythenorth> it's 'the' reason OzTrans flounced off
17:48:43 * andythenorth plays the one line python game: self.truck_cab_length, self.truck_total_length = [int(i) for i in config.get(id, 'truck_length_cab_total').split('|')]
17:49:48 <Alberth> looks like russian roulette to me :)
17:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i would have used map...
17:51:37 <Eddi|zuHause> [f(x) for x in a] is the same as map(f, a)
17:53:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so "map(int, config.get().split())"
17:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> not really much of a difference
17:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> just a matter of habit, i guess
17:56:00 <Alberth> one that is difficult to generalize to more complicated cases :)
17:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what lambdas are for :=
17:57:36 <andythenorth> I could never figure map, but for some reasons [f(x) for x in a] is blindingly obvious to me
17:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you've never learned haskell :)
17:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> (or any language, for that matter)
17:58:45 <andythenorth> I learnt actionscript once
17:59:09 <andythenorth> I was taught pascal in my engineering degree, by computer scientists
17:59:14 <andythenorth> but I didn't go to the lectures :P
18:01:29 <Djohaal> some pak128 graphics in mah open TTD
18:03:00 <frosch123> some simutrans player
18:03:24 <andythenorth> I should record my toddler saying 'make choo choo' on repeat
18:03:27 <andythenorth> and add it to my grfs :P
18:03:48 <frosch123> engine start sound?
18:05:40 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC3
18:05:40 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only"
18:06:45 <Djohaal> yay I herped something
18:06:56 <Djohaal> 'cause I got duplicate cars
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18:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Djohaal: that happens when you mess with newgrfs
18:08:46 <Djohaal> although I just built my started rail loop, too lazy to fix
18:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Djohaal: try "resetenginepool"
18:09:36 <Djohaal> Eddi|zuHause: already got trains moving around too lol XD
18:18:04 <Djohaal> you know what's a game that I miss?
18:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause> blobby volley? :)
18:22:51 <frosch123> hmm, yeah, there are some similarities between bouncing babies and blobby volley
18:23:17 <frosch123> though there are rougly 16 years between them
18:23:53 <frosch123> hmm, damn, i am too old. there are even 12 years between blobby volley and today
18:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> now they have this fancy new stuff like angry birds
18:29:44 <SpComb> best part about iPad so far: playing GTA3 on it
18:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> which i never played
18:29:50 <SpComb> (not mine, someone else's)
18:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause> (i wouldn't admit to owning GTA3 either) ;o
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18:31:13 <SpComb> I wouldn't admit to owning an iDevice
18:31:24 <SpComb> geek prestige depends on it
18:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hence the irony :=
18:32:06 <SpComb> too many levels of irony, I'm lost
18:32:50 <Djohaal> I can't build trains longer than 7 units
18:32:57 <SpComb> but playing GTA3 on a friend's iPad was very fun
18:33:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a setting for that
18:34:31 <Chris_Booth> SpComb I find you don't have enough hands to play GTA on the iPad
18:34:47 <andythenorth> SpComb: iHas more iDevices than iCare to admit
18:35:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean iDare :)
18:35:33 <SpComb> Chris_Booth: that's what you have friends + multitouch for :)
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18:36:06 <SpComb> but yeah, it's all camera&aim fail when you're trying to deal with something
18:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm probably too far out of the "gaming scene"... i only ever played GTA1
18:36:25 <SpComb> most comical bit is how slowly the bazooka aim rotates around while you're in the middle of a firefight
18:36:48 <Chris_Booth> GTA V is being developed at the moment
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18:37:27 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: I've played GTA 1 (UK and US versions), GTA 2 (multiplayer!), GTA 3 (flying dodo for multiple minutes!), and GTA IV (not played through yet, but on the third island)
18:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a difference between UK and US versions?
18:38:12 <SpComb> hmm, I'd reinstall GTA IV right now, but I'm going to be reinstalling my windows too soon, and the GTA IV licensing stuff is a massive hassle :(
18:38:18 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: well, different content, dunno
18:38:33 <Chris_Booth> flying dodo, was that the one where you had to distribute naughty leaflets?
18:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: get cracks :)
18:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (opposing to widespread myths, cracks are actually legal, as long as you own an original)
18:41:48 <Mazur> I see there is a new 1.2.0 RC, but the 1.2.0-RC3 Generic binaries for i686 are not in place, yet, though they are listed.
18:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: tried another mirror?
18:42:20 <Mazur> I tried the official site.
18:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> not what i asked
18:42:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the "official site" redirects you to the mirror closest to you
18:43:26 <Mazur> Yes, and does not mention any other mirrors, or even their existence.
18:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can pick another mirror by changing the url
18:43:55 <Chris_Booth> nl.openttd.org or gb.openttd.org ETC
18:44:21 <Mazur> Ah, guessed at de, no response yet.
18:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's <country>.binaries.openttd.org
18:45:13 <Mazur> I gathered than from the hu of Hung(a)ry.
18:45:31 <Mazur> Nl has them not yet, but gb had.
18:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> also "master" should work
18:45:55 <Mazur> O'd have preferred the doctors mirror.
18:46:09 <Mazur> I would not trust the Master.
18:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd not trust a mad man in a box :)
18:48:14 * andythenorth ponders counting number of wheels to calculate trailer weights
18:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the gay guy that doesn't die?
18:49:13 <Eddi|zuHause> who's the most notorious liar of all?
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18:53:31 * andythenorth wonders when 'polishing the set' strays into 'mindless complexity for no real gain' :P
18:55:29 *** kaenkky has joined #openttd
18:56:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: isn't that point already crossed when starting a set in the first place? :p
18:57:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: depends on your philosophy: is making stuff for the game a more or less pointless activity than any other?
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19:10:29 <Markk> [1]Mark: Sorry 'bout that.
19:14:34 <Djohaal> the phantom station exploit from simutrans works in OTDD as well
19:15:46 <Djohaal> Chris_Booth: build very long station connecting to far-ish factory
19:15:51 <Djohaal> then remove the in-between blocks
19:16:16 <Chris_Booth> thats not an exploit, just station walking
19:16:59 <Djohaal> I think it's an exploit, but whatever
19:17:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Loooong used since the original days of TTD
19:17:10 <Djohaal> you leave both ends of the station, non contigous
19:17:19 <Djohaal> so you can cover a very large area with few blocks
19:17:45 <Rhamphoryncus> It's abusable, certainly, but "exploit" is the wrong word.
19:18:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Just like building a train at the end of an opponent's station in order to crash them is abuse
19:18:17 <Rhamphoryncus> and destroying their trucks is abuse
19:18:24 <frosch123> Djohaal: you can just as well press ctrl while building a station
19:18:27 <__ln__> Rhamphoryncus: you can't partially demolish a station in TTD.
19:18:34 <frosch123> you do not have to remove any tiles in between
19:18:52 <Rhamphoryncus> __ln__: Can't you walk bus depots?
19:19:26 <Rhamphoryncus> It was hard because there were no drivethrough and you couldn't remove the middle of a road. You had to plan ahead and build all the town's roads yourself
19:19:41 <__ln__> Rhamphoryncus: maybe that way.
19:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Djohaal: so you've not found the CTRL key yet :)
19:20:27 <Djohaal> I know the CTRL key does many magic and erotic things in OTTD, but I didn't discover all its uses yet
19:20:28 <Rhamphoryncus> ctrl is full of magic behaviour, and like gimp there's often very different results for ctrl-drag vs drag-ctrl
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19:28:00 <Djohaal> question, how does auto refit work?
19:28:25 <frosch123> you need a set which supports it
19:28:39 <frosch123> afaik there is still only ogfx+trains
19:29:05 <Zuu> With it, you get an option to set the cargo to refit to. Refit happen between unload and load.
19:29:22 <Djohaal> the vector set doesn't support it it seems
19:30:22 <Zuu> If the set doesn't have auto-refit you can still send the train to depot after unload/transfer, refit and then back to the station for loading.
19:30:56 <Djohaal> question, do OGFX vehicles support the ECS goods per default?
19:31:03 <Djohaal> or I'm stuck with its TTD conversion?
19:31:12 <frosch123> ogfx+ supports them
19:31:29 <frosch123> the "+" is important :)
19:31:56 <Zuu> With "+" == NewGRF. Without "+" == base set
19:31:59 <michi_cc> The newest UKRS2 might support it as well I think.
19:32:27 <Djohaal> time to restart my game for the fifith time
19:40:17 <Djohaal> OGFX+ does support everything
19:50:59 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm using ukrs2 with autorefit
19:53:40 <Djohaal> is there a shortcut to close all open windows?
19:54:21 <frosch123> ctrl+delete to also close sticky windows or so
19:54:35 <frosch123> though why would one want to do that :)
19:55:04 <__ln__> ctrl+alt+delete is also useful for closing windows®
19:55:41 <Djohaal> I love how open source chairman faces are so identical to TTD's
19:55:57 <frosch123> yeah, and ctrl+alt+shift+delete will display the cost for a new computer
19:56:25 <frosch123> Djohaal: hmm? aren't they entirely different?
19:56:34 <Djohaal> I found them awfully similar
19:57:08 <Rhamphoryncus> The art style is intentionally similar. The palette IS the same.
19:57:47 <__ln__> how many earrings in the open ones?
19:58:27 <Djohaal> I always end up as a fat african woman, somehow
19:58:32 <Djohaal> with huge hoop earrings
19:59:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Fat? There may be something wrong with your judgement :P
20:00:16 <Rhamphoryncus> The faces show nothing
20:00:21 <Rhamphoryncus> They're neutral
20:01:11 <Djohaal> they look a bit fat for me :p
20:03:03 <Djohaal> and I love how a steel mill can run only on coal
20:03:22 <__ln__> zomg, i just checked it myself, and indeed the opengfx females have two earrings.
20:04:29 <Djohaal> no ships that can haul sand ><
20:05:21 <__ln__> so that means FS#69 is actually resolved, against lord Darkvater's decision.
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20:13:54 <Djohaal> question, can we build true subways like in simutrans?
20:15:40 <__ln__> the map basically doesn't support almost any features that TTD map didn't.
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20:16:25 * Rubidium envisions another thread being started on the forum
20:23:07 <Djohaal> I can't autorefit my ships
20:24:22 * andythenorth wonders how to tell devzone to build BANDIT
20:30:21 <frosch123> Rubidium: merge of ottd and simutrans?
20:32:56 <andythenorth> "We shouldn't need to make special/separate versions for either game"
20:33:07 <andythenorth> ^ applies to ottd and simutrans
20:33:13 <andythenorth> in fact, also applies to lomo
20:33:17 <andythenorth> so merge that too
20:33:33 <andythenorth> for v3.0 we can merge minecraft
20:33:43 <andythenorth> and dope wars, and tetris, and Duke Nukem Forever
20:34:04 <andythenorth> but it won't be done until we've merged windows solitaire :P
20:34:17 <V453000> please also merge photoshop and nml compiler
20:34:23 <andythenorth> is there a patch to put solitaire into ottd?
20:34:34 <V453000> code it with trains and pre-signals
20:34:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: try to make a newgrf for it
20:34:49 <frosch123> use the can-attach cb
20:34:50 <Rubidium> andythenorth: actually, it won't be done until OpenTTD is used to develop and distribute its own hardware
20:35:14 <Rubidium> frosch123: that's a genious idea
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20:35:37 <andythenorth> how would you deal the initial cards?
20:37:51 <Zuu> But hurry until 1.3, when that leap hole will be closen ;-)
20:40:17 <Ammler> new tilegame not even partof the changelog :-)
20:41:34 <Zuu> Ammler: That would maybe give too many features for a "hopfully the last release candidate"
20:47:25 <Ammler> Rubidium: also a bit silly is that you enable strip for the releases only
20:47:33 <Ammler> then distros need to disable it again
20:47:35 <jazzyjaffa> Do any of the AIs focus on shipping? I need to test my new pathfinder.
20:48:23 <Zuu> Not sure how competetive it is.
20:49:07 <jazzyjaffa> I only need it to make a buttload of ships. I'll try wmDOT, thanks!
20:49:09 <Rubidium> Ammler: most (sane) distros define everything they want and don't want
20:49:23 <jazzyjaffa> Ahh, thanks didn't see that page
20:49:46 <Rubidium> Ammler: that way things break hard when stuff is missing, and stuff won't be automagically picked up when it shouldn't be built
20:51:05 <Ammler> Rubidium: is there beside --disable-strip another setting which might be useful for the debug package?
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21:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is python rounding things differently than nml?
21:08:56 <Hirundo> NML rounds to nearest
21:09:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the offsets are totally wrong now...
21:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> strange... there aren't really any divisions in the relevant code
21:09:47 <Hirundo> at least... floats are
21:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> should be all integer
21:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> probably the bug is in some other math
21:18:06 <rane> any way to improve cursor refresh rate on windows?
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21:28:58 <Djohaal> is accelerating the game impossible in multiplayer
21:29:01 <Djohaal> or there's some hidden setting?
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22:11:13 <Nat_aS> is there any way to set up timetabling so that trains sharing orders will try to become evenly spaced out on the network?
22:11:26 <Nat_aS> ie don't leave the station untill the other train is leaving the opisate station.
22:12:31 <hav> you can do that manually, yes
22:14:13 <Rhamphoryncus> The orders window has a button at the top to take you to a timetabling window, but it involves a lot of manual adjustment and tends to break
22:14:58 <hav> use the "autofill" on a train what fills up the timetable automatically
22:15:31 <hav> add some days to every way when breakdowns is turned on to avoid late
22:16:08 <hav> and adjust the start date for every train manually to keep distance between trains
22:19:07 <Djohaal> dumbest question ever
22:19:09 <Djohaal> how to rotate camera?
22:19:41 <frosch123> you can only rotate it around the normal axis of your screen
22:19:45 <frosch123> by turning your screen
22:23:29 * Zuu just made a silly irrelated cross-use of an API.
22:28:35 <Zuu> When the traffic light at west is green, the generated vehicles are larger. (not OpenTTD)
22:28:56 <Nat_aS> why does this game not support SC2k style map rotation
22:29:05 <Nat_aS> (the map rotates but the sprites stay the same)
22:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> because we have no graphics for that
22:29:23 <Nat_aS> you don't need new graphics
22:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: e.g. airports
22:29:36 <Nat_aS> yeah airports would break
22:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: or banks
22:30:02 <Nat_aS> but if you did it like SC2k did, it could work without needing too many new sprites
22:30:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: sc2k had 2 sprites
22:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: and no newgrfs
22:33:15 <Nat_aS> IIRC houses just got turned around when the map rotated
22:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no, all houses had a left-facing and a right-facing view
22:34:12 <Eddi|zuHause> only for the back side they would get turned around
22:37:51 <hav> what is the point of the rotation?
22:38:26 <hav> you can make transparent or disable things to look behind structures
22:40:31 <Zuu> Nat_aS: Though, if you just want to rotate airports, you gat get OpenGFX+ Airports and you can rotate them (before construction) :-)
22:42:59 *** Markavian has joined #openttd
22:43:25 * Zuu wonders how I succeded with that typo
23:27:00 <krinn> or Zuu i need to speak to you too
23:29:09 <Zuu> hi krinn, I need to go to bed soonish
23:31:03 *** [1]Mark is now known as Mark
23:51:12 <planetmaker> krinn: don't highlight T B without stating your question or desire in the same line
23:52:16 <planetmaker> doing so is generally a good behaviour. As then reading back will tell the person the topic and maybe think of a question
23:52:26 <planetmaker> s/question/answer or reply/
23:52:28 <krinn> planetmaker, yeah sorry, not a question, it's to see if he got the bug report for the railpathfinder
23:52:48 <planetmaker> bugs go to the bug tracker. Elsewhere they're lost
23:52:57 <planetmaker> if it's there: then it's not lost.
23:53:19 <krinn> it's for the squirrel lib not openttd
23:53:47 <planetmaker> a rail path finder sounds like OpenTTD...
23:54:12 <planetmaker> and as openttd implements a big part of squirrel... it could go there, too
23:56:12 <krinn> yep that one planetmaker will send a ticket
23:57:42 <planetmaker> in this case you might then want to ask one of the two to look at it with the issue URL you create / get. Not sure they read that regularily
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