IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-03-08
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00:00:18 *** bloopletech has joined #openttd
00:00:36 <bloopletech> Is it ok to ask about installation questions here?
00:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's definitely not ok to ask questions about asking a question
00:02:16 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask
00:02:37 <bloopletech> sure, just checking this wasn't a dev only channel
00:03:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you could have an answer by now, but now i'm gone...
00:03:38 <bloopletech> I'm trying to get 1.1.5 running on my new ubuntu oneiric install. I installed the deb for 64bit from the website and installed it. I've downloaded open[g,s,m]fx from the website and put the contents of each zip in ~/.openttd/baseset
00:03:56 <bloopletech> but when I start openttd I still get "Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt."
00:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "baseset" is only for 1.2.0 and later, in 1.1.5 it must be "data"
00:04:24 <michi_cc> Section 4.1 of readme.txt would have told you that :)
00:05:22 <bloopletech> I couldn't find th readme locally so I read the one off of trunk, which is obv. for 1.2
00:05:59 <bloopletech> Someone might want to look at the readmes for the open* packs, one or two of them use baseset
00:06:16 <bloopletech> thanks for the help
00:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> bloopletech: that'll all be obsolete once 1.2.0 is finalized
00:06:48 <michi_cc> I think the Open* projects all now target the not very far off 1.2.0 finak.
00:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> bloopletech: which is probably in a few weeks
00:07:29 <bloopletech> Eddi|zuHause, ok thanks
00:07:43 <michi_cc> Unless you want exactly 1.1.5 for network play, I'd go for the 1.2 RC anyway. Much better ;)
00:12:46 <bloopletech> well my other computers and my friend are all on 1.1.5 right now, I think I'll just wait for the release :)
00:13:42 <bloopletech> though saying that, this particular game is now stuck in a sound loop ;)
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06:37:35 <Nat_aS> how come swaping newgrigs in the scenerio editor mode isn't more stable?
06:37:50 <Nat_aS> I can understand how it can cause problems in game, but scenerio editor should be safe
06:45:06 <peter1138> scenarios are jus games
06:46:03 <Nat_aS> but isn't there a way to make newgrif loading more sanatary?
06:46:17 <Nat_aS> so the game wont crash or become corrupted?
06:49:28 <Nat_aS> is there any way to mitigate the remove newgrif crashing?
06:49:57 <Nat_aS> because it sucks when an old scenerio is no longer compatible because the maker bundled it with newgrifs you don't even care about.
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06:52:05 <planetmaker> the scenario is still compatible. you just need the proper newgrfs...
06:52:43 <planetmaker> and 'how come': hysterical raisins.
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07:23:06 <andythenorth> Pikka: 'lo weebl
07:23:36 <andythenorth> put a tarp on it
07:26:03 <Pikka> I just replaced all my 1Ds cargo masks with 2C/2Ds
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08:02:57 * andythenorth sends pikka a link
08:03:05 <andythenorth> ^ needs some work still
08:03:38 <andythenorth> let's pick some more colours
08:03:45 * Pikka tries to squeeze some cars onto those cartics...
08:05:00 <Pikka> strange colour for a tarp
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08:06:29 <andythenorth> anyway, you get the idea :P
08:06:47 <andythenorth> want a new colour? add it, get all load states, in lengths 2-8
08:08:07 <Scuddles> those graphics just draw themselves
08:08:19 <planetmaker> looks tasty, andythenorth
08:10:45 <andythenorth> the layout is a bit horrorshow
08:10:57 <andythenorth> hang on, I'll turn on the template
08:12:00 <Pikka> Scuddles what are you doing here
08:12:07 <andythenorth> the template colours are normally removed during the render
08:12:23 <andythenorth> but they can be left in
08:14:59 <andythenorth> so...I plan to release all the cargo sprites when done
08:15:14 <andythenorth> so people who are terrified of the generator can paste them in with a pixel editor
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08:15:26 <andythenorth> they're on the nml template currently
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11:58:01 <Pikka> I fixed up the roof on the yellow car a bit since the screenshot
12:02:02 <Pikka> I'm going to have to make them carry "goods" now too so that people will actually see them :)
12:02:33 <andythenorth> does TAI have cars / vehicles cargos?
12:02:59 <Pikka> but if you take steel and plastic and lumber to a factory, it seems reasonable that cars might come out?
12:03:11 <andythenorth> I'm adding an auto-plant to FIRS at some point
12:03:26 <andythenorth> I'll do an economy featuring it
12:11:51 <andythenorth> Pikka: you made it a full 4-car set ;)
12:13:09 <andythenorth> the rivet-counters might pop up and point out problems....
12:13:21 <andythenorth> inner / outer wagons have different shapes
12:14:36 <Pikka> eh, the ends look near enough the same to the middle for TTD scale
12:14:52 <Pikka> I gave the outer ends different buffers/bogies...
12:17:10 <Pikka> they're zimmlock's town cars mangled down to fit the diagonals, fully GPLable.
12:17:58 <Pikka> now the question is do I go back and replace the ones on the flat cars with these ones, or leave them with the "full sized" ones...
12:18:22 <Pikka> I can't really be bothered, is the answer, I'll leave them :)
12:22:14 <andythenorth> cargo generator!
12:22:28 <Pikka> I'd have to mangle down the older generation cars too
12:22:31 <Pikka> and I can't be bothered :)
12:22:51 <Pikka> not that it would take more than a couple of minutes
12:23:25 <NGC3982> what does regulate the dissaperance of an industry?
12:23:36 <NGC3982> the lack of transportated goods?
12:23:41 <Pikka> what kind of industry, NGC3982?
12:24:30 <NGC3982> any. i notice that building a station close to an industry - and not using it makes it disappear
12:25:06 <Pikka> newgrfs can shut down industries whenever they like. default primary industries will shut down if they are already at lowest production and try to decrease. default secondary industries I think are polled every now and then and will shut down if they haven't recieved cargo in a few years.
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13:27:40 * andythenorth should fix the alignment
13:28:02 <andythenorth> tempting to splurge on randomisation of this :P
13:28:11 <andythenorth> but how many cargo sprites can a set use anyway? :P
13:28:26 <Pikka> I'll assume that's a rhetorical question :)
13:28:41 <andythenorth> how many cargo sprites can a set us?
13:28:59 <andythenorth> I think I'll just cut my fingers off as they have forgotten how to type
13:29:24 * andythenorth blames ipads and the silly, stabby, one finger pokey keyboard thing
13:30:02 <andythenorth> well variations get trivial
13:30:16 <andythenorth> 2 small tarps, 2 big tarps, 1 small 1 big, 1 big 1 small
13:30:24 <andythenorth> same colour, different colour etc etc
13:30:45 <andythenorth> it's only a matter of how many rules to write out :P
13:30:56 <Pikka> in my experience, for any given load 4 variations is enough
13:31:13 <Pikka> gives you enough of a "random" look, any more is just tmwftlb
13:31:24 <andythenorth> any more than 4, and I'd be thinking about also having pixa generate some of the code to use them
13:31:55 <andythenorth> generating nfo might suck :P
13:31:59 <Pikka> just random action 2... not hard. :)
13:32:09 <andythenorth> I could generate the action 1 / realsprites
13:32:10 <Pikka> unless you want to do odder things, of course
13:32:13 <andythenorth> but rather not tbh
13:35:09 <andythenorth> all those boats...get lower in the water while being loaded with invisible cargo
13:44:13 <Pikka> when planes make $10,000 a year and airports cost $1,000,000 a year to operate.
13:51:52 * andythenorth made a tactical error
13:51:57 <andythenorth> toddler has seen ottd on my screen
13:52:37 <andythenorth> is there a 0.2.0 UKRS for him to try?
13:53:11 <Pikka> I've got distracted by working out running costs for airports
13:54:46 <andythenorth> 'bang the truck'
13:57:20 <planetmaker> how old is your toddler now, andythenorth ?
13:57:36 <planetmaker> dangerous age ;-)
13:58:00 <planetmaker> but I guess the only non-dangerous age is above 25 or so :-P
13:58:35 <andythenorth> dangerous for ottd trucks right
13:58:50 <andythenorth> we need more disasters
13:58:55 <andythenorth> toddlers like disasters
13:59:20 <Pikka> just build the ol' railway snaking across the busy road, andythenorth
13:59:47 <planetmaker> But maybe rather via game scripts
14:05:27 <Belugas> sir Pikka :) it's getting an habit to see you around heheh
14:06:07 <Pikka> that's because I quit my job! :)
14:06:25 <Pikka> and consider myself on a grf-writing holiday until april 1st
14:13:42 <Belugas> mmh...not my business. As long as you're happy with your decision ;0 It's what matters
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14:44:54 <Pikka> because I figure I have better things to do with my time. ;) I'll be trying to make a living off my wits... but I'm taking it easy until after 1.2.0 is out. :P I have my holiday pay to keep me going for the moment.
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14:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... in libreoffice, in a table, how can i change the style of individual line segments?
14:50:38 <andythenorth> it was for the battery I had to go
14:50:44 <andythenorth> [and the lego truck]
14:52:09 <Scuddles> more like pikka is going to be a professional realm of the mad god player
14:53:48 * andythenorth needs a can of faster
14:54:04 <andythenorth> or somebody to wave 'premature optimisation' at him :P
14:55:39 <andythenorth> maybe I can cache the scan of the image, and only rescan when I know it's needed
14:56:12 <andythenorth> currently, if a vehicle has 4 render passes, and 4 colour options, and 8 cargo options....
14:56:44 <andythenorth> and scanning seems slow
14:56:50 <andythenorth> whereas....1 might be enough
14:57:24 <andythenorth> is there someone who is a better programmer than me?
14:59:29 <TinoDidriksen> ...when you say scan, what is the context? Going over all pixels?
15:00:46 <andythenorth> familiar with PIL at all?
15:01:52 <TinoDidriksen> Nope, I don't do Python.
15:05:53 <andythenorth> I basically rely on scanning all pixels in an image, from top-left, in rows
15:07:50 <michi_cc> Because you have no better idea or because some newly painted pixels are input themselves?
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15:37:21 <andythenorth> because I have no better idea yet
15:37:45 <andythenorth> I didn't want to optimise too early
15:38:26 <andythenorth> what I need is some way to cache the scan, storing only the significant pixels
15:38:37 <andythenorth> and also a method to invalidate the cache on demand
15:39:59 <andythenorth> I may be using unwise methods in PIL, it might have ways to turn the image into an iterable sequence that are faster than examining every pixel
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15:49:19 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Scan once and simply make an array/vector/dict/list with [x, y, value] and then work from that.
15:49:42 <michi_cc> Only for the interesting pixels of course.
15:50:44 <andythenorth> yeah, that's my thinking
15:51:01 <andythenorth> I'm trying to figure out how to do that only once
15:51:20 <andythenorth> I want to do it inside the module, without forcing a rewrite of existing client code
15:52:17 * andythenorth may have a solution
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16:26:59 <andythenorth> caching the scan gives me a 50% reduction in run time
16:27:27 <andythenorth> ~5s to generate ~100 images
16:28:51 <TinoDidriksen> What does the scan do? What are you changing with a scan?
16:29:11 <andythenorth> it reads the x, y, colour of each pixel
16:30:26 <TinoDidriksen> ...but why? There's a distinct lack of algorithm details.
16:40:08 <andythenorth> I could also more deeply cache everything that needs to be drawn, instead of iterating over my cached list n times
16:40:15 <andythenorth> but I don't think that's the slow bit :P
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17:08:05 <andythenorth> I need to teach pixa about being made with a makefile or such
17:09:01 <Pixa> I totally know about makefiles
17:13:27 <andythenorth> so I don't really grok what I need to do yet
17:14:04 <andythenorth> I have main.py, which imports modules (for graphics to be generated) and calls render on them
17:14:55 <andythenorth> I want to switch to parallel rendering, which make should be able to figure out
17:15:50 <andythenorth> I could write some kind of despatcher to wrap around each module, or give it a __main__ method
17:15:56 <andythenorth> or make main.py understand args
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17:47:07 <NGC3982> and a chest of scallywags
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17:50:58 <Fujikurax1337> hi. i need som help to setup a server in OpenTTD
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17:52:15 <Fujikurax1337> anyone here done this before?
17:54:50 <Fujikurax1337> arrgh. for what it says on the net is a mess
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17:55:55 <NGC3982> Fujikurax1337: really?
17:56:00 <NGC3982> Fujikurax1337: what operating system are you on?
17:56:15 <Ammler> you did not mention one issue, yet
17:56:16 <planetmaker> god created the hardware and wrote the software, and mixed it to an OpenTTD server. Thus the eigths day passed.
17:56:41 <NGC3982> (correction: seventeen years)
17:56:48 <Fujikurax1337> tried on Linux and win7. open port 3979 is done.
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17:57:17 <DorpsGek> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
17:57:32 <glx> it works for everyone else
17:58:16 <Ammler> your issue might be the forward from your router to your pc
17:58:35 <Ammler> but today router should have easy "game config wizards" :-)
17:59:29 <planetmaker> Fujikurax1337, the first questions coming to my mind are:
17:59:35 <planetmaker> - what documentation did you read?
17:59:42 <planetmaker> - what did you do in detail to make it work?
17:59:46 <planetmaker> - what did you see?
17:59:51 <planetmaker> - what did you expect to see?
18:00:01 <planetmaker> literally. Not just qualitatively
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18:02:53 <Fujikurax13377> But it's not like there to be only and press the multi-game and it's up and running?
18:03:29 <glx> no it's a real client-server
18:04:39 <glx> but if port 3979 is correctly forwarded it should just work
18:07:55 <glx> because with some crappy routers even if everything works you may not see your server from inside your network
18:09:05 <Ammler> Fujikurax13377: I would assume like with every other game server you setup or with torrents or other p2p
18:12:47 <planetmaker> mind that you allow port 3979 for both TCP and UDP in- and outgoing and port 3978 outgoing for both UDP and TCP
18:12:59 <planetmaker> on both your personal firewall as well your router's
18:13:19 <planetmaker> in 99% of the cases people swear they set all that, but find out they didn't ;-)
18:21:52 <Ammler> if you need to bother about outgoing, you stay in a strange place :-)
18:30:22 <Fujikurax13377> in RUN i type in "openttd -d" then blabla...
18:31:48 <glx> unless you start server via ingame gui
18:32:15 <planetmaker> windows users are usually blissfully ignorant of case :-)
18:33:42 <Fujikurax13377> is there any software I can use and set up an OpenTTD server? apart from the play itself.
18:34:02 <Fujikurax13377> for it does not work.
18:34:15 <glx> what does the console say when you start with -D ?
18:34:38 <glx> is there any advertising related lines ?
18:37:06 <Fujikurax13377> We are not recevingthe acknowledgement fromthe server. pleaseallpw udp and tcp packets to port 3979 to be delivered.
18:38:39 <glx> ok, if forwarding is correct it's your ISP
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18:39:04 <morph__> Anyone can send me Avignon installation for Linux (or source)?
18:39:15 <morph__> I can't find the god damn installation anywhere :(
18:42:56 <Fujikurax13377> that suck*. why so difficult.just want to play the game with a friend over the net.
18:45:21 <planetmaker> morph__: the authors are dihedral and Osai. Ask them
18:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24018 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: danish - 21 changes by mgarde
18:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 7 changes by OliTTD
18:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 8 changes by Phreeze
18:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 25 changes by mantaray
18:45:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: tamil - 40 changes by aswn
18:45:43 <planetmaker> the page is down for ages, though
18:45:58 <morph__> I got to Google results page 15
18:46:09 <morph__> You know it doesn't exist when you get to page 2 to be honest
18:46:39 <planetmaker> and to my knowledge it never made it to a production-state
18:46:48 <planetmaker> or our server would use it ;-)
18:47:13 <morph__> I want ANYTHING that can help me add goal system to my server
18:47:35 <morph__> Im few steps from starting to code something myself
18:47:49 <planetmaker> morph__: goals are to be made with goal scripts
18:47:52 <morph__> Do those work in multiplayer?
18:48:13 <morph__> *having an idiot moment*
18:48:30 <morph__> What about the console commands ?
18:48:39 <morph__> Like I want to implement the good old !resetme
18:48:55 <planetmaker> that's not a goal :-)
18:48:57 <morph__> I can do it with the likes of Autopilot etc. only, amirite?
18:49:00 <planetmaker> that's work for the admin port
18:49:31 <planetmaker> did you risk a look at the documentation which is shipped with openttd?
18:50:05 <planetmaker> admin port is what is meant as the better thing in order to not need a wrapper like ap+
18:50:24 <planetmaker> I know two libraries, but no working bot connecting to the admin port
18:50:33 <planetmaker> well. a working dummy bot
18:50:43 <planetmaker> so you need to add what you actually want it to do. written in java
18:50:57 <planetmaker> called joan, also found on the devzone
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18:52:30 <morph__> Openttd is an addiction!
18:52:41 <planetmaker> if you extend it... please consider to publish your extensions
18:53:33 <planetmaker> dihedral, should consider to release joan under the agpl instead ;-)
19:03:49 <morph__> Please kill me - Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to hudson.dihedral.de
19:08:26 <Fujikurax13377> Friend has a different IPS and it worked either. He also opened port 3979. is there anything porgramvare that I can start a server that is easy?
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19:09:18 <Fujikurax13377> programvare = software
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19:40:41 <Alberth> you didn't assume they'd make any sense did you :)
19:41:10 <andythenorth> Pikka: often for a vanishingly large definition of often
19:41:19 <andythenorth> I assume they're just bots, spamming
19:41:25 <andythenorth> can't be actual humans that thick
19:41:28 <andythenorth> I never meet any
19:41:30 <Pikka> but this one is just... possibly one of the truest and least necessary things ever said.
19:41:55 <Pikka> "Mozart > Justin Bieber"
19:42:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: websites have not yet learned how to avoid such people :p
19:42:17 <andythenorth> I suspect a small number of hackers having a game of "turing test, but goal is to fake the stupidest person on planet"
19:42:42 <andythenorth> I grew up in a very rough place with some quite stupid people, but still not as stupid as youtube
19:43:03 <andythenorth> we had the highest murder rate in the country, 4th worst place to live, but still not as stupid as youtube
19:43:31 <Alberth> so it must be really bad in the other 3 places :)
19:43:39 <andythenorth> my wife is from one of them :P
19:43:57 <andythenorth> anyway, andythenorth had a question for Alberth but has forgotten it :o
19:44:10 <andythenorth> Pikka: my wife? Merthyr
19:44:38 <andythenorth> Pikka: Mozart > Justin Bieber is at least logically sound
19:44:49 <andythenorth> the argument is a valid argument
19:45:05 <Pikka> well just how true it is is what shocks me
19:45:11 <Alberth> Mozart is probably less tall :D
19:45:46 <Pikka> no decomposition jokes please
19:45:57 <andythenorth> oh that's the grue problem in philosophy
19:46:13 <andythenorth> can't remember it
19:46:17 <andythenorth> skipped some of that lecture
19:46:29 <andythenorth> I was present, just not...attending
19:46:44 <andythenorth> I was physically co-located with a lecture, but not in it :P
19:47:08 <Pikka> you weren't paying attention is what you're saying, in essence.
19:47:50 <Alberth> he was paying attention to other things :p
19:48:54 <Pikka> whiskers on roses and raindrops on kittens?
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19:50:45 <andythenorth> maybe my question was 'how do I make it go faster' :P
19:51:01 <Pikka> stick ginger up its bum, I'm told
19:52:00 <andythenorth> ImportError: No module named ginger
19:53:09 <andythenorth> Alberth: oh I remember
19:53:22 <andythenorth> you told me some things a few nights ago - but left before I could say thanks ;)
19:53:41 <andythenorth> I'm doing those things / have committed them already
19:54:53 <Alberth> yw, and I hope you like the improvements :)
19:58:10 <andythenorth> I learnt some new python
19:58:17 <andythenorth> I need to learn how to document class properly
19:58:22 <andythenorth> my docs are a mess
19:59:14 <andythenorth> extend() was new to me ;)
19:59:38 <Alberth> you wrote the 2nd program I used it in :)
19:59:59 <andythenorth> I got a ~50% speedup this afternoon
20:01:08 <Alberth> as for documentation, I mentioned epydoc already iirc ;)
20:01:15 <andythenorth> I just need to learn the format
20:02:47 <andythenorth> it's also time to figure out how to structure the project so it has a config file, only builds what's needed etc
20:02:57 <andythenorth> currently I have to comment things in / out of main.py
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20:04:14 <Alberth> @ivar / @type for instance variables, @param / @type for parameters, and @return / @rtype for return values. In the comment lines, C{foo} is 'code' / 'constant', and L{bar} creates a link to 'bar'
20:04:44 <andythenorth> the purpose of the link is...?
20:04:46 <Alberth> if you want to see how it looks just have epydoc generate some html for you :)
20:05:13 <andythenorth> I've seen it before - it's widely used?
20:05:28 <Alberth> links are for catching those mouse clicks :)
20:05:53 <andythenorth> oh ok link in the output
20:05:56 <Alberth> the other system is what Python itself uses, sphinx
20:06:35 <Alberth> links are also useful for saying 'this is documented elsewhere' as well
20:07:02 <Alberth> I hardly ever generate html, just the doc strings are sufficient for me
20:08:20 <Alberth> have not used sphinx much, iirc the format is a bit more free-style. I prefer a more fixed form, as it reduces the need to think about the format :p
20:09:18 <supermop> is Berlin nice in the summer?
20:11:36 <andythenorth> it's fricking cold in winter
20:14:32 <Alberth> not much sea around Berlin :)
20:16:32 <supermop> i imagine that would keep it as bit too hot then
20:18:34 <__ln__> don't worry, the temperatures are a lot lower because of the Celsius scale being used rather than Fahrenheit.
20:21:44 <supermop> was eavesdropping on germans at lunch, and the weather was super nice today, so it made me think about visiting germany this summer
20:22:08 <supermop> berlin being the city i'd most want to visit as i've yet to see it
20:24:16 <__ln__> it is certainly a city worth visiting
20:25:42 <andythenorth> so what I can't figure out...is whether to make each gestalt completely self-contained
20:25:53 <andythenorth> and hard code in all the input files, paths, output filenames etc
20:26:03 <andythenorth> or whether to make them accept args
20:26:48 <andythenorth> and then how to call them with make, so multiple pixa scripts can run at once
20:27:43 <Alberth> euhm, if you use different filenames, you can run pixas in parallel whether or not they have arguments
20:29:08 <andythenorth> so I need to unconflate two things in my small brain
20:29:16 <andythenorth> (1) running in parallel
20:29:25 <andythenorth> (2) being able to have a specific script build only certain things
20:29:45 <andythenorth> both relate to reducing time for generation
20:30:05 <andythenorth> (1) is build faster... (2) is build less... :)
20:32:20 <__ln__> supermop: btw, i know a really nice hostel in Berlin.. (if a hostel is the kind of accommodation you would use)
20:33:32 <supermop> typically - not that old yet
20:34:48 <Alberth> andythenorth: using make for 2 eliminates the need to build it yourself. and it can do 1 too (somewhat limited, but sufficient for normal purposes)
20:35:17 <Alberth> the downside of using make is that you have to tell make what you want it to build
20:35:28 <andythenorth> and I don't know how to do that
20:35:36 <andythenorth> I've read make docs before
20:35:45 <Alberth> do you have that information at all?
20:36:01 <andythenorth> I could work it out, if I knew what was needed
20:36:05 <andythenorth> compared to python multiprocessing module docs, make is opaque :P
20:36:19 <andythenorth> I even found a simple shell example to start n scripts in parallel :o
20:36:38 <Alberth> yeah, people do the strangest things :p
20:37:09 <Alberth> do you understand what is specifed in a Makefile?
20:37:37 <andythenorth> I've read the coop ones. I understand individual lines of code
20:37:51 <andythenorth> but the total pipeline / execution / stack / whatever - no clue
20:39:19 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: what's the startup overhead of pixa?
20:41:06 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: sorry, no idea :)
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20:42:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Pick a moderate item (nothing too large or small), render it once (using timeit from the shell). Then do it again, but make it render 10 times
20:42:29 <Alberth> starting the python interpreter, and parsing/compiling the script file
20:43:01 <Rhamphoryncus> That's an option too
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20:43:34 <Alberth> but startup should be almost nothing compared to the actual work
20:44:36 <Rhamphoryncus> Test it, don't assume :)
20:45:28 <andythenorth> 'timeit', or 'time' ?
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20:47:22 <Rubidium> so you're better off with perl as that uses much fewer instructions for hello world
20:47:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: interesting, thanks :)
20:49:47 * Rubidium thinks the number of executed instructions is roughly inversely proportional with the number of written/coded instructions
20:50:41 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: so I have test results for 1 and 10 renders
20:52:16 <andythenorth> 10: real 0m15.557s
20:52:31 <andythenorth> 1: real 0m1.607s
20:52:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh, that's pretty good then
20:53:20 <andythenorth> I did run a profile the other day
20:53:31 <andythenorth> at a rough guess, quite a lot of time is simply spent drawing
20:53:36 <andythenorth> no way around that element
20:53:41 <Rubidium> @calc (1607-15557/10)/1607
20:53:41 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0319228375856
20:55:27 <andythenorth> let's try the 'comment out lines' route to finding what's slow
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20:57:46 <andythenorth> for sx, sy, scol in sequence.get_recolouring(x, y, colourset): < takes 0.5s in my test case
20:58:13 <andythenorth> or roughly double the amount of time compared to that line commented out
20:58:32 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Makefile 101: A makefile contains two different kinds of information. The first kind is: File A depends on/can be created from files B, C, D. The second kind: By executing command X, a file with type .foo is transformed into a file with type .bar. Everything else is syntax details :)
20:58:49 <andythenorth> with the actual drawing commented in, time is about 1.5s
20:59:18 <Rhamphoryncus> I've gotten myself curious, so I'll see if I can provide you with a dummy makefile
20:59:54 * andythenorth is intrigued by why get_recolouring() is so slow
21:00:05 <andythenorth> quite likely I could cache what it's doing
21:00:27 <Rhamphoryncus> big question: is each job described in a separate file or are they all from a single config file?
21:01:31 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: this is unknown so far
21:01:36 <andythenorth> that's kind of my starting question :)
21:01:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Separate files is MUCH easier
21:01:55 <andythenorth> separate files makes sense
21:01:58 <Rhamphoryncus> as in C: foo.c produces foo.o
21:04:48 <Alberth> Rhamphoryncus: in Java it does not make sense
21:06:17 <NGC3982> one that recieves wheat/live, and another for the produced food
21:06:26 <NGC3982> suddenly, the produced food appears in the wheat/live station.
21:06:35 <NGC3982> they are next to each other.
21:07:11 <Rhamphoryncus> You have a train/vehicle that wasn't set to only unload in the wheat/livestock station, and was capable of loading food
21:07:20 <Rhamphoryncus> So it probably wasn't refit properly either
21:07:52 <Rhamphoryncus> So start by opening the station window, click the train icon, and go through everything that goes there
21:08:05 <Rhamphoryncus> An implicit order can also do it, if another train got lost and it's not non-stop
21:08:43 <Rhamphoryncus> After you've fixed all that.. destroy the station, rebuild a new one there (ctrl-click to avoid reusing the existing one), and swap over all the orders
21:09:48 <NGC3982> Rhamphoryncus: i see.
21:10:34 <Rhamphoryncus> These days I tend to go through and make sure all my orders are exact, to avoid such things. Lots more work upfront though.
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21:12:40 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: an implicit order can not cause a vehicle to go to a wrong station
21:12:56 <Rubidium> a vehicle going to a wrong station will cause an implicit order to be inserted, though
21:12:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Implicit orders are the consequence of it
21:13:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Sorry, should have been more clear about that
21:14:23 <Rhamphoryncus> If a train isn't non-stop it reports where it stops using implicit orders, which you can look for. This applies if it's intentional and if it's lost
21:15:02 <andythenorth> @calc 4.230 - 1.897
21:15:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: that's how much time is spent in get_recolouring()
21:17:34 <andythenorth> about 1s of it is spent on transforms
21:18:16 <michi_cc> The basic syntax is "target: source"
21:19:04 <Rhamphoryncus> There's ways to avoid listing all the filenames though
21:21:08 <michi_cc> Let's look at that backwards: Lines 6 and 7 tell us that gestalt_A/B.pytmpl somehow read or depend on input.png, so if input.ong is modified, those two gestalt files should be treated as modified as well.
21:22:26 <michi_cc> Line 3 says: A file foobar.pytmpl can be transformed into foobar.png by executing the command "./pixa.sh -o $@ $<". $@ stands for the target (so foobar.png) and $< for the first source (so foobar.pytmpl).
21:24:15 * Alberth always does "echo $@ $<" as a first try, or uses 'make -n' (echo commands but do not exec)
21:25:17 <michi_cc> And the first lines tells make that in the end we want to have the files gestalt_A.png and gestalt_B.png. Make will by default create the first target it can find, so by insterting this 'dummy' line we can simply execute 'make' instead of 'make gestalt_A.png gestalt_B.png'.
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21:28:05 <michi_cc> If you allow make to operate in parallel (i.e pass the -j option), it will execute the two pixa.sh calls concurrently.
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21:29:58 <andythenorth> when generating ~3,000 pngs with auto-generated file names
21:30:34 <andythenorth> it will be interesting to set up the targets :o
21:30:56 <frosch123> the next steps are to autogenerate the nml code, to autostart a game, and to let an ai play with it :)
21:31:54 <Rhamphoryncus> 15 steps down the line we achieve singularity
21:32:20 <Alberth> frosch123: nah, a goal script to measure how fast you reach the goal, then build an optimizer loop :)
21:32:44 <frosch123> Alberth: you mean a goal script evaluating the ai?
21:32:54 <michi_cc> andythenorth: The typical solution for that is a program/script that writes a file with "target: source1 source2" lines which is then included in the makefile. This is what e.g. the dep step in the makefile framework does.
21:33:52 <Alberth> andythenorth: GNU make has all kinds of text manipulation functions to construct names etc
21:34:10 <andythenorth> I might need to unpick some assumptions in my code to use these :|
21:34:35 <andythenorth> I have quite a lot of reliance on python structures to generate names
21:34:36 <Alberth> or generate a makefile, as michi said :)
21:34:58 <andythenorth> seems a bit chicken and egg :)
21:35:12 <Alberth> you only need one Makefile ;)
21:35:44 <andythenorth> I could teach pixa to optionally generate only the filenames
21:36:04 <andythenorth> also I think the output files will need to be committed to the repo
21:36:09 <Alberth> eg gcc/g++ has a -M option to generate dependencies
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21:43:45 <Alberth> -MM is more useful, as it does not include the system header files
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21:53:21 <morph__> Working version of TCL+Expect for Autopilot+ 4.0?
21:53:36 <morph__> Im getting segmentation faults and whatnot with 8.3, 8.4, 8.5
22:02:53 <morph__> Autopilot works. Only took 2 days
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22:09:41 <NGC3982> Rhamphoryncus: are you sure we have to destroy the station?
22:09:56 <NGC3982> Rhamphoryncus: its a damn lot of trains without shared orders :(
22:09:57 <Rhamphoryncus> NGC3982: that gets it to stop delivering to that station
22:11:38 <NGC3982> though, as i recall: if i destroy a station and quickly replace it, the material parked on it disappear, but the name remains?
22:12:50 <Pikka> the material will remain too
22:16:17 <morph__> can't find package irc while executing "package require irc"
22:16:24 <morph__> Any ideas? (Autopilot+)
22:22:45 * andythenorth needs to make sleep, not war
22:23:04 <andythenorth> good and also bye
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