IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-28
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02:34:10 <Pikka> you realise that this means the end of the horse-drawn zeppelin?
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03:52:42 <Pikka> why am I wasting my time coding things like a single livery parameter that no-one's ever going to use?
03:56:26 <Pikka> because it's fun, that's why.
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08:50:58 <Pikka> what is "Unexpected error while uploading."?
08:51:10 <Pikka> good morning andythenorth
08:51:22 <andythenorth> something unexpected this way comes?
08:52:21 <Pikka> who are the bananamen around here? planetmaker?
08:58:09 * Pikka joins andythenorth in stirring the britttrains pot
08:59:34 <andythenorth> I am considering forking it, and calling it 'slightly uninteresting car crash'
09:01:28 * andythenorth considers FRIED_CHICKEN
09:03:02 <Pikka> bananas "version numbers" are unimportant, right?
09:04:11 <Pikka> bananas only knows "latest" vs "old", and OTTD uses the action14 version in the grf
09:04:32 <Pikka> I just wonder because I'm replacing 0.82 with 0.1.0 :]
09:05:01 <planetmaker> Pikka, bananas only cares about the action14 version really
09:05:24 <planetmaker> and indeed, via the normal online content download you only get the 'latest'
09:05:24 <Pikka> why is it not uploading? :)
09:05:45 <planetmaker> But if you have an old savegame, you always get the matching newgrf (md5sum)
09:05:56 <planetmaker> dunno, what error do you get?
09:06:21 <Pikka> Unexpected error while uploading.
09:10:55 <andythenorth> someone else had bananas issue recently....old ships?
09:11:08 <Pikka> spaces in filenames or something?
09:11:19 <Pikka> this is the same zip I've always uploaded, just with a newer grf in it
09:12:03 * andythenorth can't think of a way to test :o
09:13:04 * Pikka wonders disk space limits?
09:14:27 <andythenorth> I don't have any grfs with updates that I could upload :O
09:15:24 <andythenorth> raise a FS ticket?
09:16:16 <appe> what factors make the train maintaince cost differ?
09:16:21 <appe> i see it going up and down all the time.
09:16:27 <appe> for individual trains, that is.
09:17:13 <Pikka> what grf are you using, appe?
09:17:19 <Pikka> they shouldn't change at all with the default trains
09:18:03 * andythenorth could update FIRS
09:22:14 <andythenorth> Pikka: split Leanden and Oberhumer's posts to a new Britttrains thread? ;)
09:22:27 <andythenorth> then the BROS guys can carry on arguing in their own thread
09:23:21 <appe> Pikka: ah, i guess i was looking at a grf. i think it was the royal hudson (and i cant remember what grf that is)
09:30:39 <Pikka> threads split, expecting everyone to turn around and gang up on me now. :)
09:30:45 <andythenorth> you can take it ;)
09:30:46 * andythenorth will try uploading new FIRS to bananananas - after a quick nappy change (not mine)
09:32:47 <peter1138> does it include 32bpp ez sprites now?
09:38:31 <andythenorth> Pikka: no error uploading FIRS :(
09:39:03 <Pikka> possibly a connection problem
09:46:25 <Pikka> I'll try again later I suppose
09:47:40 <andythenorth> I can try for you - depends if you want to share your password or not...
09:53:59 <andythenorth> I can't update to FIRS 0.7.1 from abananaasas
09:54:14 <andythenorth> ottd downloads it, but then can't see it
09:54:37 <andythenorth> when I revisit the online content dialogue, the checkbox for FIRS is unchecked
09:55:32 <andythenorth> 0.7.1 doesn't appear to be in my ottd filesystem either
09:56:47 <andythenorth> and I don't seem to have any locally-installed versions of 0.7.1 or 0.7.0
09:59:18 <andythenorth> there is now a newgrf dir as well as a data dir
10:05:48 <Pikka> andy, maybe later, dindins
10:05:50 <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, what version is that?
10:05:56 <Rhamphoryncus> That's my patch
10:06:07 <Rhamphoryncus> Nowhere near done
10:06:51 <xiong> Um... can I say I don't like it? Not knowing your intent. I just don't like a wider order window. Can it be narrowed, if needed, taller?
10:07:04 <dihedral> what does your patch do again?
10:07:38 <xiong> Oh wait. I'm guessing your entire intent was to make the window wider and less tall. Sorry.
10:07:43 <Rhamphoryncus> narrowed, no. That's one of the things I don't like. Yes, it organizes the information better, but the time columns are noisy and typically unused
10:08:02 <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: reorganizing the order and timetable window into one
10:08:23 <Rhamphoryncus> It'll include more later on
10:10:39 <xiong> I like that the timetable is in straight days. I find the full date format confusing, especially since I can't seem to make all the dates come out to ISO format.
10:11:12 <xiong> Besides, nothing ingame is seasonal. Years matter, days matter; months are irrelevant. Straight days in timetable = win.
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10:11:31 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, I have another patch (on the tracker) that makes timetables better. This one builds on that.
10:13:24 <Rhamphoryncus> I change a lot of the default assumptions in the labels. Those orders are all non-stop. non-non-stop are displayed as "local"
10:15:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Automatic balancing
10:16:16 <Rhamphoryncus> So you can hit autofill, tweak the values, and then adding or removing vehicles will maintain their spacing
10:16:22 <xiong> Whatever. Anything to relieve the tedium of carefully timetabling a set of trains, only to have the entire applecart upset as soon as another train is added to the route or all the engines are upgraded.
10:17:01 <xiong> I tried, and liked, the automatic feature in chillpack. But it doesn't deal well, or at all, with via orders or conditionals.
10:17:15 <Rhamphoryncus> Future will include average times so you know if you need to tweak the times
10:17:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, mine doesn't handle conditionals yet either.
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10:18:10 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm considering some way to override the number of vehicles and only use part of the orders as timetabled
10:18:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, newgrf dir and data dir might confuse eachother... if there's the same dir within each of them
10:18:13 <xiong> Hey, here's something you might slide in, would be highly appreciated: Ability to autofill just to get the leg and total times; and not force the vehicle to *obey* the timetable.
10:18:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Just so you can see how long it takes?
10:18:40 <Rhamphoryncus> average times would be that
10:19:13 <xiong> But in general, it should be possible to turn off timetabling without destroying the timetable.
10:19:20 <xiong> There is no "off" button.
10:19:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Well, I'm not planning a toggle, but the average would be displayed regardless so it'd be easy to recreate
10:20:37 <planetmaker> how did you end up there, Ammler ?
10:20:45 <xiong> I'd call that a good step.
10:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe toggle between average time, scheduled time and average speed?
10:21:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: that's a thought
10:21:19 <Rhamphoryncus> I hadn't figured out where to display it :)
10:21:23 <Ammler> planetmaker: not me, a suse user is reporting it
10:21:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Ammler: my first guess is a packaging issue is mixing openttd versions
10:22:08 <xiong> If I might suggest: You can eliminate worries about vias, conditionals, depoting, and all other disruptions if you think locally. No vehicle on automatic should try to do anything except equalize headway for itself. .
10:22:53 <planetmaker> Ammler, thus... the build distributed by suse is faulty?
10:22:55 <xiong> In particular, vehicles that depot should be encouraged to add headway *then*, in depot; and not merely in station, which is not always best.
10:22:55 <Ammler> Rhamphoryncus: I am the packager and I can't reproduce it
10:23:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Ammler: arch issues? 32 vs 64 bit?
10:23:40 <Ammler> Rhamphoryncus: only the binary openttd is arch, the rest is noarch
10:24:02 <planetmaker> Ammler, but language files are part of the arch'ed package. And are compiled there
10:24:13 <planetmaker> by a separate programme generated on runtime
10:24:17 <planetmaker> of the compilation
10:24:27 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: not sure what you mean about depots.
10:24:53 <dihedral> wait what? did i just read that nick?
10:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: this kind of error happens when you update only the binary, not the lang files. or if you update the langfiles and not the binary (e.g. because the program is running or something)
10:26:09 <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, I've only ever observed a timetabled vehicle (that is early) adding headway by waiting in station; never in depot.
10:26:27 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: you want them to *wait* in a depot?
10:26:29 <xiong> But if you're in a station, I think it's obviously the best time to wait.
10:26:41 <dihedral> Ammler, did you just stumble across this error in the bug tracker, or did you experience it yourself?
10:26:52 <xiong> Erm, I meant to say, if you're in a depot, it's obviously the best time to wait.
10:27:08 <Rhamphoryncus> Waiting in the depot would be bad for your service rating
10:27:19 <Rhamphoryncus> And your payment if you had cargo at the time.
10:27:27 <planetmaker> Ammler, indeed I can imagine this happens when the user builds his own openttd - but not the lang files while he has installed an (old) OpenTTD via the package manager.
10:27:37 <planetmaker> or maybe when he downloaded a binary somewhere w/o lang files
10:27:43 <xiong> It wouldn't be good, no. It's a tradeoff. One doesn't want blocked platforms. Perhaps it could be an option.
10:27:55 <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: <Ammler> Rhamphoryncus: I am the packager and I can't reproduce it
10:28:15 <planetmaker> Some people are known to cut off the lang files from their downloads because of "space considerations"
10:28:25 <planetmaker> (and then download another BR disk)
10:28:29 <dihedral> Ammler, could it be that the user updated the binary via some not intended method?
10:28:42 <xiong> There's really no *good* place to *stop*; which is why real trains rarely do this to maintain schedule. Instead, they slow down a little.
10:28:53 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: if you're low on capacity due to that you should tighten your schedule
10:29:08 <Ammler> I asked him to join here, maybe he will :-)
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10:30:02 <dihedral> he only mentions openttd-data version and not the version of the binary he is running ;-)
10:30:29 <dihedral> and i could imagine hime having tried to update the openttd binary by downloading a version from the website without updating the other stuff
10:30:54 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: however, I've added "lateness" to my list of things I want to add to conditional orders. :)
10:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the lang files should really not be part of openttd-data
10:31:25 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: so those are arch?
10:31:42 <Ammler> I always thought, openttd is the only arch file
10:31:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the lang files must exactly match the binary. arch is irrelevant
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10:32:24 <planetmaker> Indeed, very much so
10:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can have openttd-versonA and openttd-data-versopmB installed
10:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and then the lang files would be invalid
10:32:41 <Ammler> theny you need to ignore require rules
10:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's stupid to rely on
10:33:02 <planetmaker> Ammler, you really distribute lang files independent of the binary?
10:33:06 <planetmaker> they're separate packages?
10:33:16 <planetmaker> That's not a good idea
10:33:25 <planetmaker> lang files belong to the binary.
10:33:32 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd-data can be opengfx,openmsx and stuff, but _not_ the lang files
10:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> then they're wrong, too...
10:34:34 <planetmaker> everything make bundle creates needs updating when OpenTTD is updated
10:34:35 <dihedral> they just define a dependency
10:34:37 <planetmaker> it's there for a reason
10:34:44 <dihedral> why on earth they do not put that stuff into one package i do not know
10:34:55 <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: they have "policy" ;)
10:36:26 <evdvelde> The question remains why lang is so tightly bound to the binary of course
10:36:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Anybody experienced with RTL languages? Should that entire set of columns get reversed?
10:37:49 <dihedral> Rhamphoryncus, check how other tables get displayed
10:37:59 <Rhamphoryncus> I was just starting to do that
10:38:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Some languages are creating an extra column in my window, which remains unrendered. Odd.
10:39:45 <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh Hebrew, there we go :D
10:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> evdvelde: well, that's how it evolved, i guess
10:40:53 <Eddi|zuHause> evdvelde: we have a pretty elaborate grammar system, that may break when the binary and lang doesn't exactly match
10:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> technically, we may have safeguards now that the grammar is exposed to NewGRFs, but those may be missing in some places...
10:42:24 <Rhamphoryncus> Indeed, there's a bug open right now about crashing openttd that way
10:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be a pretty elaborate work to fiddle that out, and very little benefit, as 99.9% of the people would have the correct versions anyway
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10:45:46 <xiong> Fry3k has not been seen on forum for quite some time and he hasn't updated his FIRS cargo chart. http://wiki.openttd.org/FIRS_cargos is... not enough. Are major changes planned to FIRS economy or would a new chart be welcome?
10:46:56 <Pikka> still want to have a go at it andythenorth?
10:47:33 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: there's at least 2 other charts out there
10:48:03 <andythenorth> Pikka: if it can be done one-handed, yes ;)
10:50:02 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: but if you can make a *better* chart.. it's worth trying. My personal desire is to break it into two charts, one farming oriented, the other engineering oriented
10:52:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Oi, now I can't resist trying it :)
10:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that fails to load
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10:53:31 <xiong> Now that I think of it... it might be nice if it were more readable when zoomed out, to fit in an average-sized browser window.
10:54:25 <xiong> But it looks well laid-out.
10:57:57 <xiong> Anyway, thanks Rhamphoryncus.
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11:08:34 <andythenorth> absence of FIRS 0.7.1 looked like a bug in a specific rev of ottd
11:08:39 <andythenorth> updating to tip has solved it
11:11:11 <xiong> I had a train running accidentally without a caboose! Did not complain.
11:11:33 <Rhamphoryncus> uhh yeah, cabooses are nothing but candy
11:12:41 <xiong> Cabooses were required for freight trains. Now I see no wiki page for them.
11:13:24 <Rhamphoryncus> In real life, not in the game
11:13:55 <xiong> I distinctly recall they were stated to be required ingame.
11:14:01 <Pikka> Rhamphoryncus: it depends what grf you're using, and xiong, it depends what wiki you're looking at. :]
11:14:05 <xiong> Dunno if I read that on wiki or what.
11:14:15 <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: some can enforce it? Huh.
11:16:02 <xiong> I feel ill. You mean *all* the cabooses I've built have been for nothing?
11:16:33 <xiong> Where did I read that? I didn't just make it up. I distinctly recall the statement that a pax car counted as a caboose.
11:16:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the requirement of new FIRS probably is 1.2.0-RC1 or newer
11:17:07 <andythenorth> I was 193 changesets behind tip
11:17:36 <planetmaker> you might want to adjust bananas min version entry accordingly
11:17:44 <planetmaker> though... maybe it cannot be selected atm
11:17:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: are those list of parameters meant to mean "when all of the following apply"?
11:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "zOMG, chancellor majority failed. now the government will break apart"... why don't i read that in the papers?
11:21:42 <Rhamphoryncus> Grasshopper is bugged
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11:28:46 <Rhamphoryncus> But it won't autoreplace without the caboose, so it's fine :)
11:29:51 <FrankyJones> Hello, after installing 1.2.0 RC1 today openttd told me my basic grf sets are missing a few sprites, whats to do?
11:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> update to newer opengfx
11:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> should be possible from online content
11:30:52 <FrankyJones> Ok, so like 're-read' the grf's in my list...
11:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> no, not the newgrfs, the base grf
11:31:21 <FrankyJones> Ah ok got it! Thanks!
11:35:35 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: / planetmaker, distributing those seperately is required for dedicated version, also we distribute it that way since ever
11:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: so you were just lucky that nobody ever ignored the dependency
11:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: and why is that "required"?
11:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you can just put the lang files in both the "normal" and "dedicated" version
11:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or even leave out all but english.lng from the dedicated
11:42:07 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you can't pack the same file twice, at least I would not have a clue how
11:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> then your build system is weird/lacking a feature
11:45:17 <Ammler> not really, there is no need
11:45:45 <Ammler> the guy on suse found his issue, he just did not tell what yet :-)
11:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: other option would be to split -lang (with tight version requirement) and -data (with less tight requirement)
11:49:41 <Ammler> why should split to -lang work, but split to -data doesn't?
11:50:24 <Ammler> of course, there is already tight version requirement for -data
11:51:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Mmm, it is nice when you just call a function or two and the existing architecture does all the work for you ^_^
12:04:28 <Ammler> also debian does do it the same way, afaik
12:04:30 <planetmaker> Ammler, how does dedicated / non-dedicated differ in the lang requirements?
12:04:44 <planetmaker> Splitting lang from the binary is a very bad idea and should - IMHO must - not be done
12:05:20 <planetmaker> as wrt dedicated and non-dedicated package: just make it different packages...
12:05:32 <Ammler> but please, if you have an idea, how I am open for suggestions
12:06:01 <planetmaker> Ammler, you can't have both, a dedicated and non-dedicated openttd at the same time anyway, can you?
12:06:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Replaced the timetable columns with mere right-aligning
12:06:41 <planetmaker> and if so, they need to be compiled such that they use different search paths for their lang files - or you could not have them at different versions
12:06:58 <planetmaker> not sure one can change compile-time the path for lang files, though
12:08:04 <Rhamphoryncus> More feedback welcome
12:08:17 <planetmaker> as such what I'd do is: make two packages, one dedicated, one non-dedicated which are mutually exclusive
12:08:28 <planetmaker> and then always install the lang files which belong to that very package
12:09:01 <Ammler> planetmaker: can we discuss the issue and not make a new one :-)
12:09:20 <Rhamphoryncus> Not sure what to do about conditional orders. Half tempted to draw them over the column separator
12:09:35 <planetmaker> Ammler, so... what's the issue then when it's not lang files which do not match the binary?
12:10:55 <planetmaker> wrt data the requirement is MUCH less strict. You may not even need it, if you have your own. While you *always* need the lang files
12:11:19 <planetmaker> where you basically cannot have your own, if you don't have the source of the openttd which built the binary you have installed
12:13:51 <andythenorth> I never understood 'travel' in the timetabling
12:14:04 <andythenorth> it's not deterministic, so wtf to setting a value for it?
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12:16:21 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: it's the expected travel time. For most purposes you could merge it with load time
12:17:52 <Rhamphoryncus> I've thought about doing that. I'd need a separate way to control partial vs complete timetables.
12:19:14 <Rhamphoryncus> hrm. Single column with the right being "Wait for any full load [35 days]"?
12:20:58 <Ammler> planetmaker: if I have a issue on my package, not splitting it would not solve it
12:21:25 <Ammler> there might be 2 packages, but still built together and during dependency rules bound
12:23:12 <Ammler> I basically asked here to get tips what else it could cause
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12:51:23 * andythenorth can't find a non-convoluted way to do this
12:51:55 <andythenorth> passing arbitrary arguments down a call chain of framework code to a custom function written by a user of the framework
12:52:11 <andythenorth> could do ** args and such but it's ugly, and might be explodey
12:52:17 <andythenorth> maybe I won't bother :P
12:52:36 <peter1138> let the caller use their own data structure
12:52:43 <peter1138> (object if you're using such a language)
12:54:21 <andythenorth> prevent unintended consequences?
12:54:28 <andythenorth> e.g. collision of vars etc
12:55:19 <andythenorth> or assume user deals with that?
12:55:44 <andythenorth> likely result is only a type error, or some wrong pixels
13:05:10 <andythenorth> in face albert figured out in the code he gave me, but I misunderstood the implications :o
13:10:33 <andythenorth> that's what albert's code tells me too :)
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13:12:49 <andythenorth> suddenly all is clear :)
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13:29:57 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Rhamphoryncus: what's "exchange cargo" in your pictures anyway?
13:30:07 <Rhamphoryncus> load and u nload
13:30:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Which is the default normally, but rarely actually desired
13:34:30 <Eddi|nichZuHause> rather call it "unload if accepted and load" then
13:34:43 <Eddi|nichZuHause> "exchange" makes it easy to confuse with "transfer"
13:37:40 <Rhamphoryncus> Really? I don't interpret it that way
13:38:08 <Rhamphoryncus> And unload if accepted is really long
13:40:06 <Rhamphoryncus> Ah right, it was the common cases that were long
13:40:20 <Rhamphoryncus> For a timetabled PAX route all you want is "exchange cargo"
13:40:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Labelling it as "unload if accepted and take cargo" is overly verbose
13:44:11 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, but it's verbose for a reason. It's unambiguous
13:44:36 <Rhamphoryncus> In the context of my window is unambiguous. My messages are consistent
13:45:05 <planetmaker> I have the feeling you're trying to "fix" a dozen things at a time. Often not a good idea
13:45:27 <Rhamphoryncus> A dozen things is probably an underestimation
13:46:13 <Rhamphoryncus> There's a lot of interrelation
13:46:44 <Rhamphoryncus> I've tried to do some piecemeal (patches already posted), but there's limits to how much I can do there
13:47:18 <Rhamphoryncus> This.. could probably be segmented into a separate patch
13:47:39 <planetmaker> Whatever you do, renaming the single load orders probably is not a good idea
13:47:54 <Rhamphoryncus> Because it's different?
13:48:08 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm changing non-stop too
13:48:42 <planetmaker> do trains behave different? And why remove that order type?
13:48:49 <Rhamphoryncus> No and I'm not removing it
13:48:54 <planetmaker> if they behave the same? Why rename it?
13:49:05 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm changing the label. Non-stop is assumed, "as local" is displayed if not used.
13:49:27 <Rhamphoryncus> The vast majority of orders should be non-stop. So much that there's an option to do so by default
13:49:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Other than some insane openttdcoop self-regulating stuff there isn't any functional need for local orders
13:50:43 <planetmaker> ehm... I guess openttdcoop is who use goto with intermediate stop the least. But there are many reasons to use it
13:51:18 <planetmaker> you should not necessarily assume that your way to use orders is the only one or the most likely one :-)
13:51:27 <Rhamphoryncus> What was is there?
13:51:59 <Rhamphoryncus> I don't assume. I search and try to find alternative uses. Self-regulating is the only one I found.
13:52:07 <planetmaker> any line A-B with intermediate stops is quickly ordered without non-stop
13:52:32 <Rhamphoryncus> So, saves a couple clicks
13:52:46 <Rhamphoryncus> But you have to click in the UI to enable it
13:52:55 <Rhamphoryncus> And you're treated with the noise of all the non-stop
13:54:15 <planetmaker> not sure what you mean with 'noise'
13:54:31 <planetmaker> and... you have to enable non-stop explicitly, too
13:54:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Nearly every line repeating "non-stop"?
13:54:48 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, only because it's not original to ttd
13:55:27 <planetmaker> well, I can only advise to keep "non-stop". It's a clear naming. Everyone understands that.
13:55:37 <planetmaker> While otoh "local" is a totally fuzzy concept
13:55:51 <Rhamphoryncus> local is a pretty standard term
13:55:57 <Rhamphoryncus> I didn't invent it
13:56:07 <V453000> in general I would join the ranks of advising to keep any naming as original
13:56:16 <V453000> just renaming things probably doesnt help anything
13:56:24 <V453000> "local" order would be very unobvious to me
13:56:42 <Rhamphoryncus> Only because it's a change.
13:56:58 <planetmaker> it doesn't tell me *anything* about how the order behaves
13:57:11 <planetmaker> while "goto non-stop to A" is absolutely clear
13:57:15 <Rhamphoryncus> It's the exact opposite of non-stop
13:57:23 <V453000> local is opposite of nonstop? :o
13:57:25 <planetmaker> in your wording, yes
13:57:34 <planetmaker> but not in general language understanding
13:57:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Why would you assume if you see "goto A" that it'd go to B, C, and D if it felt like it?
13:57:51 <planetmaker> B,C and D are on the way
13:57:52 <Rhamphoryncus> In the context of bus and train routes there's local and express
13:57:54 <V453000> just cause it is missing the non-stop which can be swapped
13:58:06 <V453000> but if it changes to something different, who knows
13:58:41 <V453000> if you want an opposite then it would have to be something obvious, like do-stop ... or similarly
13:58:50 <V453000> but "local" really doesnt hit it to me
13:59:02 <Eddi|nichZuHause> how about appending "(with/without intermediate stop)"? (except that it is too long)
13:59:21 <V453000> I would just keep it as it is, it is short and quite obvious what it does
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13:59:59 <V453000> and as I suggested someday earlier, perhaps make non-stop orders coloured differently than stop orders. That would make the difference even better visible
14:00:20 <Rhamphoryncus> I could make the "as local" part bright red ;)
14:00:37 <Rhamphoryncus> flashing lights
14:00:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Maybe a URL to some definitions and real life examples
14:01:02 <V453000> just totally not "local"
14:01:41 <V453000> non-stop x with stops
14:02:54 <Rhamphoryncus> Local Train — A train with an assigned crew that works between pre-designated points normally providing picking up or dropping off railcars to the railroad customer base within the area.
14:03:21 <V453000> why not "with stops" ?
14:03:34 <V453000> dont tell me you dont see that it is much more obviously the opposite of non-stop
14:04:11 <Rhamphoryncus> I don't. The opposite even.
14:04:26 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm specifying stops. How could one be "with stops"?
14:04:42 <planetmaker> that's why eddi suggested "with intermediate stops"
14:04:58 <planetmaker> and you're not specifying "stops" but "destinations"
14:04:58 <Rhamphoryncus> Every route has a specified list of stops. There's no such things as implicit ones.
14:05:08 <V453000> "Go with stops to X?" "Go non-stop to Y?"
14:05:10 <planetmaker> Stops is actually the difference, that there can be intermediate ones
14:05:27 <V453000> intermediate feels long :)
14:05:44 <Rhamphoryncus> stopping at most or all stations:
14:06:04 <V453000> I dont think we care about the dictionary explanation of local ... it just isnt obvious
14:06:41 <Mazur> Just tasting the terms.
14:06:52 <Rhamphoryncus> How about "Go, while stopping at every intermediate station it passes through, to X"? ;)
14:07:00 <planetmaker> and for the intermediate stops, that's what you have the "automatic orders" for
14:07:19 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, exactly. And that's why the current naming goto non-stop is MUCH shorter
14:07:37 <planetmaker> "don't fix it, if it ayn't broke"
14:07:57 <Rhamphoryncus> I disagree with both clarity and brokenness
14:08:28 <planetmaker> have fun. Would be a pity, if you litter your patches with unnecessary changes which are both unwanted and counterproductive :-)
14:09:03 <Rhamphoryncus> They're not, but there's no point arguing it anymore :P
14:09:07 <V453000> I can agree with the point that it would be good to add a name for "without nonstop orders". Simply because if you want to make them somehow coloured, these parts of orders would have to be the ones. But it has to be obvious opposite of non-stop, and it has to be short.
14:10:45 <planetmaker> btw, changing this naming is totally a separate patch on its own. No need to mix it with *anything* else
14:11:16 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: It's closed related to the intent. The implementation may be separable.
14:11:32 <Rhamphoryncus> "This UI is cluttered and awkward. What can we do better?"
14:11:40 <planetmaker> whatever your intend: it needs no renaming ;-)
14:11:55 <planetmaker> and is quite a bit unrelated to the window layout itself
14:12:14 <planetmaker> even going by the screenshot you posted earlier
14:12:41 <Rhamphoryncus> Changing makes it a lot more practical to have a small window
14:12:45 <planetmaker> and always separate implementation where something can be separated :-)
14:12:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Otherwise it has to be 20-30 pixels wider
14:13:17 <planetmaker> that's a whole icon width wider
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14:15:31 <Rhamphoryncus> Repeated on every single line, conveying no useful information to the user? They have to learn to look for the absence of it instead?
14:16:28 <Rhamphoryncus> 48 pixels actually
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14:18:58 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, and for the record: I intend to make my window optional. The old windows will still be accessible if you turn it off, and use the old text.
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14:24:48 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, that's even worse. Two names for the same thing
14:25:17 <V453000> guess I just missed something due to the netsplit :D
14:25:30 <planetmaker> probably me, too. But... who knows :-)
14:25:31 <Rhamphoryncus> Right, like openttd is afraid of duplication :P
14:25:37 <planetmaker> though it was only one minute
14:25:39 <Rhamphoryncus> No, I didn't say anything else
14:26:23 <planetmaker> two orders windows with an adv. setting is... stupid. We already have too many adv. settings. And... what purpose would that setting serve?
14:27:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Silencing the naysayers.
14:27:32 <planetmaker> sorry. But an adv. setting for that: unacceptable IMHO
14:27:37 <Rhamphoryncus> Who are used to the old way. Just as local orders are now.
14:30:14 <V453000> why do you discuss stuff, you are absolutely stubborn on your stupid "local" anyway
14:30:23 <V453000> for no reason that I would see
14:30:54 <Rhamphoryncus> I feel exactly the same about you guys. Oblivious to the problems, too stubborn to accept any change.
14:31:26 <V453000> I say a change to something obvious is good as a word for that type of orders would be useful
14:31:52 <V453000> your asnwer: no, local.
14:32:15 <V453000> while (at least verbally) with stops is definitely a more obvious opposite to non-stop
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14:33:28 <Rhamphoryncus> To which I provided examples of why locals is better.
14:33:47 <Rhamphoryncus> And it's not like you've said a single positive thing about my work
14:34:45 <V453000> that werent examples, that was dictionary explanation of "local". Local can also be distance-saying ... like local train - short distance train --- nothing about stops there.
14:34:48 <Rhamphoryncus> And the suggestions here have been to say something for BOTH local and non-stop
14:35:01 <V453000> and I just entered the discussion, and I havent seen any of your works
14:35:24 <nilsi> what would be the preferred way to get a "get good ratings" cheat option ?
14:35:35 <planetmaker> this discussion was about renaming how orders are called. Not any of your work. I didn't even look at it
14:35:44 <nilsi> I am a sandbox Player and bribing doens't cut it
14:35:47 <planetmaker> nilsi, write a NewGRF
14:35:56 <planetmaker> but there's no cheat for it
14:36:02 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, the dictionary definition seems a little out of context, that's because there's no such thing as a real bus or train that stops at whatever stations it randomly hits. They always have an explicit list of stations. They just list the most important ones as.. the most important.
14:36:36 <V453000> how is related real bus or train?
14:36:36 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, exactly. We have automatic orders. And manual orders (the important ones)
14:36:51 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: terminology is derived from real world uses.
14:36:59 <V453000> it makes no sense here in the game
14:37:01 <nilsi> I am talking about being allowed to build stations with bad town ratings
14:37:05 <V453000> just like "local" says nothing
14:37:08 <planetmaker> and things need be clear
14:37:10 <nilsi> can grfs really do that ?
14:37:19 <planetmaker> nilsi, there's no cheat
14:37:27 <planetmaker> all you can do is wait. Or bribe the town
14:37:28 <V453000> a "with stops" train must stop in all stations it meets. Which it does
14:37:33 <planetmaker> or build trees to make them happy
14:38:11 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: Your expectations of the terminology are intrenched in a decade of TTD doing it that way. They're quite different from what anybody new to the game would expect.
14:38:14 <V453000> while ... "local" doesnt stop in all stations, therefore this real life example is not fitting?
14:38:26 <nilsi> i have been implementing an openstreetmap interface during the last weeks, i know it is not yet there
14:39:03 <Rhamphoryncus> A local bus stops at all stops along its route. Most buses are local, so it's assumed.
14:39:04 <V453000> but you just said it. Local does not stop in all stations in real life. Which is not what this order does
14:39:29 <Rhamphoryncus> It's only weird because "automatic" is weird
14:39:47 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. "stopping automatically"?
14:40:12 <V453000> if you send out a bus with "with stops" order, it will stop everywhere it meets
14:42:20 <planetmaker> nilsi, an OSM interface? Like reading-in maps?
14:43:23 <nilsi> however it is quite traffic intensive
14:43:51 <nilsi> and there seems to be a problem in town founding speed
14:44:18 <nilsi> took me 6 hours to render Saxony with 3500 towns
14:45:21 <nilsi> yesterday i added rendering of farmland :-)
14:45:26 <planetmaker> nilsi, you cannot place towns arbitrarily close
14:45:51 <planetmaker> and obviously also not on every tile (like water). Not sure about slopes
14:46:06 <nilsi> slopes are not yet supportet
14:47:50 <planetmaker> I think the reason therein lies in the fact that the centre tile has to be road and it should allow much connectivity (like a 4-way junction)
14:48:01 <planetmaker> which is not feasible on a sloped tile
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14:50:27 <Scuddles> wrong channel damn it
14:50:32 <Scuddles> also orudge is a bum
14:50:41 <Pikka> no it isn't the wrong channel
14:50:48 <Pikka> no-one uses #tycoon any more
14:51:47 <Scuddles> peter1138 where are diagonal stations and fancy ottd features
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14:52:16 <Scuddles> that tablecat fellow drew something silly again it seems
14:54:15 <Scuddles> pruplethingz is a butt
14:54:28 <Pikka> that tablecat fellow draws the strangest things
14:56:26 <planetmaker> oh noes, a DanMacK !
14:56:33 <orudge> and everybody uses #tycoon, silly Pikka
14:56:39 <orudge> and bah, zomg Pikka is what I meant, not PierreW
14:56:53 <Pikka> I don't even know who PierreW is
14:57:10 <DorpsGek> __ln__: PierreW was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 33 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 52 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <PierreW> sad that i can't code the language, in whatever openttd is built in
14:57:11 <planetmaker> obviously a person with 3 unnecessary highlights in the last 120 seconds ;-)
14:57:24 <__ln__> not too recently though
14:59:50 <Pikka> why won't my grf upload to bananas?
15:00:47 <Scuddles> I saw a truck while on a bus to work recently
15:00:59 <Scuddles> it was a house moving company with a name in chinese
15:01:09 <Scuddles> and written below it was "House Removal"
15:02:46 <Scuddles> Oh this seems to be an actual term though
15:04:41 * DanMacK forgot Snail was now on this side of the pond
15:06:43 <Pikka> well, do they move the house or just the things in the house, Scuddles?
15:07:01 <Eddi|nichZuHause> hm... what's the linux equivalent of "keyb gr"?
15:09:17 <planetmaker> Pikka, which NewGRF was that?
15:09:31 <planetmaker> I've seen that mistake recently too often :S
15:10:07 <Pikka> andy tried uploading it for me too, didn't work
15:11:21 <planetmaker> But Rubidium did some magic to the NewGRF entries in bananas which refused to accept updates so that uploading worked again... it might need doing for the UKRS2 entry as well.
15:18:57 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I could as well have broken it completely ;)
15:19:16 <planetmaker> it worked for both other guys
15:19:35 <planetmaker> well, the newgrfs are now available ;-)
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15:30:03 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i guess i should get a more modern knoppix than 2006...
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15:38:47 <andythenorth> did you talk about buses yet?
15:38:56 <andythenorth> or extra-long trains? :)
15:39:04 <DanMacK> too busy discussing the UKRS :P
15:39:09 <DanMacK> and me updating my sprites
15:39:26 * DanMacK just uploaded an 0-3-0 to Pikka's tracking table
15:39:56 <andythenorth> DanMacK: if you ever get bored of the trains....
15:40:24 <andythenorth> I can already hack around the cabover you've drawn
15:40:34 <andythenorth> but a conventional would be really useful too... :)
15:41:00 * DanMacK senses Scuddles is confused
15:41:03 <andythenorth> I *might* get around to drawing it myself, but I prefer your style
15:41:12 <DanMacK> thanks, I'll see what I can do
15:41:13 <andythenorth> and I'm having too much fun writing generator code
15:41:20 <Scuddles> not at all I just googled cabover
15:41:29 <Scuddles> so why aren't there cabunders
15:41:35 <andythenorth> Scuddles: there are
15:41:45 <andythenorth> I can't remember the name of the damn thing, but it was a german prototype
15:41:45 <DanMacK> I thought you were wondering about the 0-3-0 :P
15:41:48 <Scuddles> though I am confused by 0-3-0
15:41:58 <DanMacK> check the tracking table ;)
15:42:48 <Scuddles> I didn't see it for a while and thought it got cancelled
15:42:55 <DanMacK> or a separate add-on, but Pikka said I should throw them on there
15:43:02 <DanMacK> No, just got sidetrackes
15:43:14 <Scuddles> evidently to confuse players
15:43:35 <DanMacK> I uploaded the track sprites too
15:43:59 <Scuddles> how do the junctions work
15:44:19 <DanMacK> well, TTD limits would just have them standard
15:44:30 <Scuddles> oh my this is one wide loco
15:45:05 * DanMacK should get his lunch assembled
15:45:53 <Scuddles> what is this I don't even
15:46:17 <DanMacK> builders/demonstration loco
15:46:34 <Scuddles> I can't really see what it's made out of and it's making my eye hurt
15:47:00 <andythenorth> I worked out the dimensions for bonnets, sleeper boxes etc
15:47:29 <andythenorth> also a day-cab cabover
15:47:51 <Scuddles> blue and white colour scheme sure looks like DOS and such
15:48:13 <andythenorth> as long as the bumper-back-of-cab (BBC) is a multiple of 4px in the - view it will work
15:49:02 <DanMacK> The coffeepot's the last loco
15:51:08 <Mazur> Ha, first time I see openttd+replacement data files in a fedora repository. Have they been there long, now?
15:52:00 <andythenorth> DanMacK: clearly room for that in the set ;)
15:52:09 <andythenorth> I am sorely lacking on variety
15:52:23 <andythenorth> I have *lots* of trucks (maybe too many), but not a lot of interest
15:52:33 <andythenorth> you might say the interest:trucks ratio is a bit low
15:52:47 <Scuddles> these are the fanciest tank locos I've seen this year
15:53:23 <andythenorth> DanMacK: don't think I can generate the streamliner :)
15:53:30 <andythenorth> might have to settle for drawing ;)
16:00:43 * andythenorth can see the appeal of 32bpp :(
16:01:00 <andythenorth> I don't have enough spare life to redraw everything though
16:01:17 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just create more helpers ;)
16:01:57 <andythenorth> I'd probably create them to 2x zoom, as that's the most appealing size to me
16:02:28 <andythenorth> I could do a batch scale in photoshop or PIL, then paint the gaps
16:03:07 <andythenorth> but...then what does 1x zoom look like?
16:05:38 <DanMacK> I'll see what I can do about the trucks
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18:01:20 <Eddi|nichZuHause> hm... it's near impossible to move windows to another disk...
18:02:26 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i successfully moved all files, and got it to boot from the new disk, but *somewhere* it takes files from the old disk, and hangs during boot if the old disk is not present
18:02:48 <blathijs> Eddi|nichZuHause: Did you try dd'ing the full filesystem instead of moving individual files?
18:02:57 <Rubidium> maybe it refers to the disk by its uuid?
18:03:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|nichZuHause, dd works nicely for windows HDDs
18:04:30 <planetmaker> yeah, that's where I tested it, too :-)
18:05:30 <FHerne> Not sure why I bothered really, I dropped Windows a few weeks later anyway...
18:05:46 <FHerne> forward planning is overrated :P
18:06:29 <glx> Eddi|nichZuHause: you updated BCD too ?
18:06:46 <planetmaker> well. I needed it to get identical copies of flight hardware to have a working spare. Just in case
18:13:19 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
18:15:52 <Eddi|nichZuHause> glx: what's BCD?
18:17:34 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
18:18:21 <Chris_Booth> is there a limit howmany refit options a wagon has?
18:19:06 <Chris_Booth> for example could I make a superwagon that could refit to any cargo?
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18:31:00 <Eddi|nichZuHause> glx: yes, i fixed the boot system
18:31:09 <Eddi|nichZuHause> it hangs somewhere later, during the "welcome" screen
18:32:07 <Eddi|nichZuHause> if i have the old disk attached (as second disk according to the bios) then it boots from the new disk, but puts it as D: and takes some things from C:
18:32:39 <Eddi|nichZuHause> like the personal directory is what i can immediately see, but may as well be things deeper inside the OS
18:38:36 <morph_> Hello, I am trying to add some NewGrf to a dedicated OpenTTD server
18:38:56 <morph_> What folder do I copy the .tar NewGrf file in? (Ubuntu 11.04 server)
18:39:20 <morph_> I tried in my /.openttd/content_download and /openttd/data folders, did not work
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18:43:42 <Yexo> morph_: define "did not work" please
18:43:52 <Yexo> how do you reference that newgrf in your config file for example?
18:44:22 <morph_> ini: ignoring invalid NewGRF '2cc_trainset-2.0.0beta5\2cctrainset.grf': not found
18:44:37 <morph_> 2cc_trainset-2.0.0beta5\2cctrainset.grf = 2 2 0
18:45:14 <morph_> 1) Do I need to copy the NewGrf.TAR file ?
18:45:30 <morph_> Cause it seems kinda weird to reference a .grf yet there's just a .tar file
18:45:45 <Yexo> a tar file is a bundle that can have multiple files inside it
18:46:00 <morph_> Ok, I can unpack the tar
18:46:15 <morph_> Where do I put the Directory "2cc_trainset-2.0.0beta5"
18:46:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23998 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:46:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: basque - 106 changes by HerrBasque
18:46:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_AU - 9 changes by tomas4g
18:46:15 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 17 changes by OliTTD
18:46:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by NG
18:46:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: greek - 25 changes by kyrm
18:46:44 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
18:46:44 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
18:46:55 <Yexo> depending on the OS of the server you might need to use a / instead of a \
18:48:32 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
18:49:02 <morph_> Yexo - no error message this time, will check server
18:49:24 *** andythen_ has joined #openttd
18:49:59 <morph_> Damn, very nice, thanks alot Yexo. Didn't think it'd be this easy
18:50:32 * andythen_ wonders what a good iphone irc client is
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18:56:00 <Alberth> you seem a bit shortened andy :)
18:58:58 <morph_> Any ideas how to change monorail/maglev appearance date for a server ?
18:59:18 <morph_> Im starting game at 1977 and building monorail track is already active
19:00:29 <|Jeroen|> 1977 is correct if you check wikipedia
19:00:32 <Rhamphoryncus> You're using a newgrf
19:00:32 <Yexo> disable any newgrfs you have with monorail/magleve vehicles
19:14:25 <morph_> OK, this will be painful - adding AP+ to the server...
19:15:23 <Alberth> hello Belugas, no more 'the second' any more ?
19:15:50 <Belugas> nope, connection was smooth, so i did not had to clone myself!
19:16:20 <Alberth> good to hear you are fully back to a single self :)
19:24:42 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:26:40 <Alberth> andy, you figured out how to do the sequence collection?
19:27:53 <andythenorth> phone irc - not great :(
19:27:59 * andythenorth is now back on real computers
19:28:09 <andythenorth> Alberth: I figured out how to do that yes
19:28:17 <andythenorth> you gave me everything I needed ;)
19:28:19 <Alberth> useful for reading, perhaps :)
19:28:23 <andythenorth> I haven't coded it yet though
19:28:48 <andythenorth> pending baby interruptions I'll start now
19:28:56 <andythenorth> although I have to send baby photos to my mum first :P
19:29:11 <andythenorth> (even andythenorth has a mum)
19:35:22 <andythenorth> I think my mac has scribbled all over it's memory when it ran out of battery :P
19:35:31 <andythenorth> restarts are boring
19:37:18 <Alberth> good night, and good luck programming
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19:41:01 <andythenorth> 95% idle, 4G free, taking 10mins to close programs so I can restart :P
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19:44:22 <FHerne> At least your desktop environment doesn't segfault every few minuter
19:44:37 <FHerne> KDE4 still isn't the most stable
19:46:17 <andythenorth> sudo shutdown -h now methinks
19:46:30 <andythenorth> don't copy that to *your* shell without knowing why ;)
19:47:28 <FHerne> Don't you need a -P on the end of that?
19:47:38 <FHerne> or are Macs different?
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19:50:38 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just pull the plug and battery. That's the only way I've seen a Mac turn off reliably
19:51:13 <andythenorth> battery access means unscrewing 12 screws or so ;)
19:51:25 <andythenorth> I've never seen 'shutdown' fail :)
19:52:09 <Rubidium> andythenorth: well, I've seen a mac fail to turn off (it did hang quite well), not even by pressing the on/off button for a long time
19:52:45 <Rubidium> but that's back in the days
19:53:09 <Rubidium> it was after Lisa though ;)
19:53:32 * andythenorth also experienced the crazy world of classic mac os
19:53:45 <andythenorth> where it was common to install an auto-save helper app
19:53:55 <andythenorth> and a crash every 25mins or so was standard
20:06:37 <peter1138> memory protection? what's that?
20:08:16 <andythenorth> he's reporting an identical issue to the one I had earlier today
20:08:32 <andythenorth> I solved it by upgrading to ottd tip
20:20:05 <Eddi|nichZuHause> mäh, copying is the most boring task you can do, without having your usual distraction tools with you...
20:22:00 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc 40*1024/6.6/3600
20:22:00 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 1.72390572391
20:22:18 <Eddi|nichZuHause> @calc 40*1024/6.6/60-60
20:22:18 <DorpsGek> Eddi|nichZuHause: 43.4343434343
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20:52:45 * DanMacK wonders if it's yet possible to show directional switch and crossing graphics...
20:54:20 * frosch123 wonders voting for the paused title game :p
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20:58:53 <frosch123> nicfer is a troll, isn't he? :p
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21:04:59 <DanMacK> You know that one Andy?
21:05:24 <morph_> Im too stupid to figure out how to use dtach for dedicated server..
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21:15:51 <andythenorth> DanMacK: sorry, no, don't know
21:16:05 <andythenorth> what exactly do you envisage? :)
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21:24:08 <andythenorth> that sounds quite...advanced ;)
21:24:32 <andythenorth> if PBS is in use, that draws the routing overlay
21:24:38 <andythenorth> but only if PBS is in use
21:24:56 <andythenorth> suggests the route can be found though
21:26:18 <andythenorth> I don't know if you'd need an extra tile bit to store this
21:26:32 <andythenorth> or more than one depending on how many junctions you have
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21:44:37 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i've been wanting the trackbits of the 4 adjacent tiles for ages
21:45:09 <michi_cc> I'd be very much against calculated variables, but if I look at the complexity of drawing a single piece of catenary, a few VarAct2's for per track tile don't look problematic.
21:45:23 <frosch123> sounds like hypercomplex if they are on different levels :)
21:45:46 <michi_cc> Calculated like some of the 60+x variables I mean.
21:46:32 <morph_> I dont get this - I turn off inflation in openttd.cfg file, when I turn server off, inflation's back on
21:46:35 <morph_> Anything I should know?
21:46:54 <michi_cc> OpenTTD writes the config on exit.
21:47:03 <michi_cc> So exit first, then change value.
21:47:16 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i rather meant 40+ variable bitstuffed to the 4 adjacent tiles
21:47:28 <Eddi|nichZuHause> no 60+ for arbitrary offsets
21:47:34 <planetmaker> morph_, if you load a savegame, then the value stored there is used
21:47:47 <morph_> I have stopped the server. If I change the value now, then turn server on and join, 5 blocks cost like 50k
21:47:48 <Eddi|nichZuHause> (although that might be "fun" for spanning multiple tiles with catenary
21:47:58 <morph_> I did not load a savegame :(
21:48:12 <Eddi|nichZuHause> but that should rather be something cached in the tile, like fences)
21:48:58 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: A couple tiles of look-ahead for signal allocation would make various constructs much easier and provide a way to know what direction a switch should be
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21:56:17 <Eddi|nichZuHause> "draw junction at onces" might be too tedious to gather all the different sprites needed...
22:08:17 <michi_cc> Drawing layered might not look very good though, due to too much overlap with the sleepers.
22:08:50 <Eddi|nichZuHause> need separate layers for the sleepers and the rail :)
22:10:04 <michi_cc> Composite them with a script into "junction at once" sprites.
22:10:36 <michi_cc> Maybe andy's Pixa can draw rails as well :)
22:10:49 <planetmaker> <morph_> Im too stupid to figure out how to use dtach for dedicated server.. <-- not sure it was answered: start a screen on the server and openttd within that screen. You can then safely close that xterm
22:11:07 <planetmaker> and regain control by reconnecting to that screen
22:14:56 <andythenorth> I copied a list to avoid writing into it
22:15:02 <andythenorth> but the list contains objects
22:15:21 <andythenorth> so modifying the contents of one list modifies the other :P
22:15:28 <andythenorth> took me a while to figure that out :P
22:17:03 <andythenorth> python is fun :)
22:17:13 <andythenorth> michi_cc: drawing rails is probably possible
22:17:17 <glx> planetmaker: dtach is a kind of screen IIRC
22:17:27 <andythenorth> not sure you'd gain much, because track is so simple
22:17:38 <michi_cc> Curved track isn't simple :)
22:18:02 <andythenorth> you could teach it to draw the curves
22:18:30 <andythenorth> PIL's draw module probably has a chord option
22:19:07 <andythenorth> you could also teach it to draw pseudo-random ballast
22:19:24 <andythenorth> I kind of need to code it first though :)
22:24:22 <Eddi|nichZuHause> andythenorth: make a deep copy?
22:24:37 <Eddi|nichZuHause> from copy import copy
22:25:51 <andythenorth> currently I'm doing: temp_points = [Point(i.dx, i.dy, i.colour) for i in self.points]
22:28:18 <planetmaker> glx, I assumed it's simply missing one letter and a bit funny grammar :-) I didn't recognize it as a programme name ;-)
22:36:04 <Eddi|nichZuHause> andythenorth: really, sometimes i think you picked up python last week :p
22:36:53 <andythenorth> you can get a long way with simple python
22:37:14 <andythenorth> mostly I code in a CMS which has (for security reasons) restricted python
22:49:26 <andythenorth> my Pixa code all works now
22:49:32 <andythenorth> and is much cleaner
22:49:40 <andythenorth> possibly even reusable by others :P
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23:15:05 <Rhamphoryncus> I think I'm a masochist. I started a FIRS game in 1830.
23:15:14 <Rhamphoryncus> (with NARS and EGRVTS)
23:20:32 <Pikka> I hope you have inflation turned off :)
23:24:37 * Rhamphoryncus whistles and goes and fixes something >.>
23:29:34 <Rhamphoryncus> oh. My poor Grasshopper was fine until it hit a hill. A single hill.
continue to next day ⏵
