IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-25
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01:31:00 <xiong> Any progress toward a setting to disable the prototype vehicle offers?
01:31:43 <Rhamphoryncus> You're aware of the workaround of accepting one, then ignoring it for a year? They'll blacklist you for a few years after that
01:33:33 <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, I heard that years ago and tested it out. I never was blacklisted; continued to be offered all prototypes. Perhaps that's been fixed. Still, I want no such offers at all. I never want them and they always seem to come at the worst time. I might be timetabling or otherwise managing a tricky thing... when up pops the huge box. Can't even dismiss it with spacebar; must mouse or wait.
01:33:59 <Rhamphoryncus> I've never tested it either
01:34:41 <xiong> I set up quite a few tests on various prototype propositions: that accepting and not employing would blacklist; that accepting and using would confer some advantage. All failed.
01:35:34 <xiong> In any case, I just don't see the point. I play with breakdowns; reliability is my top concern, not top power or speed.
01:35:40 <Rhamphoryncus> I remember that using a prototype would boost the reliability later on, but that may have been an earlier version or simply a myth
01:36:09 <xiong> Earlier version, myth, bug, vapor feature, I dunno. Might even be true now.
01:36:43 <xiong> It's a fact that many vehicles improve in reliability the longer they've been available.
01:37:09 <xiong> So from my viewpoint, I'm not only not interested in prototypes; I don't usually want new vehicles until years after introduction.
01:37:31 <xiong> You can imagine the kind of hardware and software I use on my desktop.
01:38:19 <xiong> Rhamphoryncus, you'll excuse me if I don't know you well... how are you with writing NewGRFs?
01:39:15 <Rhamphoryncus> There is code to blacklist you for not building a prototype. Dunno if it works though.
01:39:20 <Rhamphoryncus> I've never touched newgrfs
01:46:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. Looks like reliability is randomly picked each game but not affected by accepting a prototype
01:53:01 <xiong> ... in defiance of propaganda.
01:54:21 <xiong> For me, the prototype offers are worse than useless; they're a distraction.
02:10:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Hah. If the text for your order destination changes to "1 fizzy drink" you're doing something wrong. ;)
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03:28:34 <supermop> why are you up so late/early?
03:33:13 <supermop> i am waiting on pizza, in case you are wondering
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06:36:33 <xiong> I'm doing some junction testing and came on an unexpected result by mistake.
06:37:42 <xiong> I inadvertently included an unreachable station in the order list, which (I suppose) meant that trains waiting to enter the junction were willing to take any route out of it, rather than the "next" ordered.
06:39:25 <xiong> So, it seems, the junction was able to carry a higher volume of traffic. The implication this suggests to me is that you can extract a little more volume from your network, presuming pax and mail, if you give your trains no orders at all and allow them to visit stations randomly.
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08:14:03 <andythenorth> in python, can an arbitrary function be passed to a method as an arg, then used by the method?
08:16:01 <Rhamphoryncus> functions are ordinary objects
08:19:29 <Rhamphoryncus> bound methods can be passed around too. x.foo() is merely (x.foo)()
08:27:16 <Arafangion> andythenorth: Rather, you should question why you wouldn't be able to do that, and if you can't, pick a better language.
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08:41:59 <andythenorth> but (obvious) I have to explicitly declare a function, otherwise it will be evaluated
08:42:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23983 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix [FS#5083]: tarred heightmaps wouldn't be found
08:43:00 * andythenorth was bamboozled by lambdas
08:46:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23984 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#5082]: fix the order of lights on the helipad (PaulC)
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09:10:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Bollocks. 5 years in before I even noticed us train set had disabled itself :P
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09:26:46 <Zuu> Write an AI instead of playing the game directly. Then you can just restart when you find out things like this. ;-)
09:32:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Not soon though. I have to accomplish some world domination first.
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09:40:14 <planetmaker> hehe. The ominous 'play me' button :-P
09:43:20 <LordAro> playing OTTD? how do you do that?
09:44:13 <planetmaker> LordAro: Try the tutorial. Maybe you then know ;-)
09:44:29 * planetmaker is happy that this answer becomes more and more valid
09:44:52 <planetmaker> Zuu is doing good work on that :-)
09:45:35 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: actually, for me "world domination" involves getting patches accepted upstream ;)
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09:45:51 * LordAro wonders if the tutorial will ever be included in 'vanilla' OTTD
09:46:16 <planetmaker> if you ask me: yes
09:46:38 <planetmaker> though certainly not before 1.3
09:47:03 <Alberth> so many wiki pages that need to be included first :p
09:47:20 <planetmaker> Well. It need not cover everything to be included IMHO
09:47:28 <andythenorth> ooh Alberth is here :)
09:47:37 <Alberth> no, just the basics would be very good already
09:48:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: I've been thinking about PixaSequence
09:49:07 <andythenorth> presumably it would be setup something like: foo = PixaSequence(seq=[...])
09:49:39 <andythenorth> and if we have PixaLoad for external images, something like: bar = PixaSequence(PixaLoad(path, options))
09:51:41 <Alberth> not sure about the constructors, but something in that order, yeah
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09:55:10 <andythenorth> do we try and spec everything first, or do I just start sticking new classes into the test code experimentally?
09:56:08 <Rubidium> the latter, then when you're done with the experimentation create specs as then you know what you need
09:56:49 <Alberth> and then trash everything and build version 2 :D
09:59:38 <andythenorth> PixaMixer - I don't have a clear idea of yet
09:59:50 <andythenorth> the paste from Thursday(?) suggests it only modifies one colour
10:00:07 <Alberth> that was just an example
10:00:34 <Alberth> you seem to have many things or many ways you want to change a sequence
10:00:55 <andythenorth> I think PixaMixers are nearly entirely custom in every case
10:00:57 <Alberth> for each case, make a (derived) class
10:01:34 <andythenorth> so PixaMixers adapt sequences...
10:01:41 <Alberth> I think it is less bad, the general replacement pattern is fixed, the values they replace differ
10:02:18 <Alberth> ie you may want to replace a colour range by another one, so make such a class, and parameterize on the colour ranges to replace
10:03:14 <andythenorth> so to use them...my idea is either to call the sequence, passing pixamixer(s), or call the pixamixer, passing sequence
10:03:53 <andythenorth> does it really matter either way?
10:03:59 <Alberth> either will do, I think
10:04:35 <Alberth> in fact, you could see a sequence as a special mixer, namely one that returns a fixed sequence
10:05:11 <andythenorth> all I want to do is modify the 'return' function of the sequence
10:05:50 <andythenorth> in between baby stuff, I'll test this with my existing code
10:06:05 <Zuu> planetmaker: yea, 1.2 would be to early for it to stabilize. However, hopefully some 1.2 users will still find it on bananas and find it useful.
10:06:14 <andythenorth> will be a few hours I guess :P
10:07:26 <planetmaker> I mean... getting it into 1.2 is... not something anyone expects or thought of
10:07:48 <planetmaker> The question was only: will it be shipped directly later? And I think that's a good idea
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10:12:48 <LordAro> Rubidium: your create script lags my computer somewhat :L
10:21:55 <LordAro> Rubidium: which megapack did you use? i'm using the latest 'dev' version and it still results in errors...
10:40:26 <K0L3C> I think I'll never learn complicated railroad building.
10:42:01 <K0L3C> But I know that obviously with the knowledge of constructing complicated railroad networks I would easily win.
10:42:45 <Alberth> oh, you want to have competition even while playing? :(
10:43:00 <Alberth> real life not giving you enough challenges?
10:43:01 <K0L3C> No, I just want to have as much fun as possible.
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10:43:17 <Chris_Booth> K0L3C: why not find a copetition server?
10:43:28 <K0L3C> Chris: Because I don't feel good enough.
10:45:53 * Alberth fails to see the fun == win equation
10:46:15 <K0L3C> I see you don't understand what am I trying to say.
10:48:22 <K0L3C> I just want to be more skilled in building complicated networks, to then see them work successfully.
10:48:32 <K0L3C> That's the real win, to learn something complicated.
10:49:59 <Alberth> a co-op server is a very good place to learn that, imho
10:50:41 <Alberth> (as Chris already said)
10:50:53 <Rhamphoryncus> indeed, I've been learning a great deal on openttdcoop
10:51:12 <Chris_Booth> yes K0L3C check out #openttdcoop / #openttdcoop.stable
10:51:15 <Alberth> note that in general, you don't need to be any good, you just need to be motivated enough to invest time and effort in it
10:51:22 <Chris_Booth> they are a good place to start
10:57:51 <Rubidium> LordAro: I didn't use the dev one
10:58:26 <LordAro> i'm currently going through fixing problems with mask sprites
11:00:19 <LordAro> Rubidium: how hard would it be to modify your script for doing all sprites (not just the ones in ogfx1_base) ?
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11:01:47 <Rubidium> LordAro: you'd need to figure out what the offsets are of the other sprites
11:01:56 <Rubidium> offsets as in sprite numbers
11:02:39 <Rubidium> LordAro: there seem to be invalid PNGs in the dev package
11:03:13 <LordAro> i'll take a look when i manage too fix all the problems with the dev package
11:03:41 <LordAro> about the invalid PNGs: how can i find out which? all the script outputs is "Invalid PNG"
11:03:56 <Rubidium> I reckon it's those pngs with size 0
11:04:09 <Zuu> If you don't want to play coop, you could also join the #openttdcoop welcome server which is quite nice for playing alone.
11:04:14 <Rubidium> and/or the ones nforenum complains about
11:04:34 <LordAro> Rubidium: probably, how can i get ls (or similar) to display file size?
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11:05:09 <planetmaker> LordAro: what errors does that script make?
11:06:20 <Alberth> ls -l | grep " 0 " <-- gives a bit less output
11:06:51 <Rubidium> then there's also quite a number of sprites that don't define x or y (or both) offsets
11:07:01 <LordAro> unrecognised palette (warning),
11:07:24 <LordAro> "A portion of sprite <num> could not be processed."
11:07:42 <Rubidium> and then there's also maybe two cases where the script goes haywire (sprite 0 and 1)
11:07:55 <LordAro> "Invalid PNG file" <- while "Constructing NFO"
11:08:07 <Rubidium> LordAro: those are the empty files
11:08:41 <Rubidium> the sprite that can't be processed are mostly missing offsets
11:08:58 <Rubidium> the 'nice' thing of nforenum is that it filters though out of the nfo
11:10:30 <Rubidium> then there are also masks with 1 bit instead of 8 bit colours
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11:10:38 <Rubidium> file *m* | grep -v '8-bit'
11:11:44 <Rubidium> for i in *[^m].png; do pngcodec l $i | grep -v offs; done contains most of the sprites without offset
11:11:53 <Rubidium> possibly all, but I haven't tested that
11:12:50 <planetmaker> for the devpack I don't get a single 32bpp sprite. All commented out
11:13:37 <Rubidium> for i in `for i in *[^m].png; do pngcodec l $i | gr's/ .*//'; done`; do pngcodec a $i x_offs=0 y_offs=0; done should actually add offsets (of 0)
11:14:22 <planetmaker> yes, it does that
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11:16:44 <Rubidium> planetmaker: your output of file probably is different
11:18:28 <planetmaker> 3960.png: PNG image, 64 x 35, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
11:19:08 <planetmaker> the 8-bit/color looks like it should be something else
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11:22:16 <Rubidium> 820_z1m.png: PNG image data, 103 x 59, 8-bit colormap, non-interlaced
11:22:42 <Rubidium> 973_z1.png: PNG image data, 74 x 36, 8-bit/color RGBA, non-interlaced
11:22:54 <Rubidium> for me there's a 'data' extra
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11:23:37 <planetmaker> that's then easy to fix
11:24:42 <planetmaker> though I have to say, an ogfx1_base.grf with 30kB size is also nice
11:26:03 <K0L3C> This looks kinda weird when two biggest ships in the game pass through themselves in a 1x1 canal.
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11:29:20 <K0L3C> When you have water in land, and you demolish it, it becomes a land.
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11:31:40 <Rubidium> again a newer version. This one creates a nfo without problems
11:34:28 <appe> i was just wondering, the materieel '34 train seems to be having the wrong speed set in it's grf.
11:34:45 <appe> if im in game, where can i see the name of the grf a unit belongs to?
11:35:04 <K0L3C> I think I've found a bug?
11:35:27 <MNIM> appe: questionmark button?
11:35:31 <Rubidium> please don't harm the bug and release it in the wild, especially if it's a lady bug
11:35:45 <K0L3C> No, I found an OpenTTD bug.
11:35:50 <LordAro> Rubidium: i've already fixed 2604m :)
11:36:01 <LordAro> (of course, have to wait until tomorrow to see fix)
11:36:40 <MNIM> well, not sure if it works on moving units, actually. I know it works on tiles at least.
11:36:49 <K0L3C> I've got an "Ś" in my name, and the last piece of Ś is out of the name bar, making white dots on the map.
11:37:21 <appe> the question mark button doesnt seem to respond to the trains.
11:38:10 <MNIM> yeah, I checked it. it doesn't :(
11:38:16 <Rubidium> LordAro: I don't really care whether it gets fixed. The script is a big hack and sprites that are done should be coded properly into opengfx
11:38:32 <appe> the wiki articles i find about the trains tells me it was only built for 125km/h.
11:39:02 <Zuu> K0L3C: Which font do you use? Bitmap font from OpenGFX/Original or a TTF font?
11:39:03 <Rubidium> or at least in a proper NewGRF as the method my script employs fails for non-temperate
11:39:17 <appe> K0L3C: i get that -alot-
11:39:48 <appe> something that bugs me with that error is that it follow the same lines i get in my putty connection.
11:40:00 <appe> same sort of lines, same color and distance from eachother.
11:40:06 <appe> and the software aint related.
11:40:09 <Zuu> K0L3C: Do you use opengfx or original graphics?
11:40:17 <Rubidium> LordAro: to compile a grf (much) faster you should add "-n" to the grfcodec parameters
11:40:20 <appe> i didnt report it, since i thought it was a local hardware malfunction.
11:40:32 <Zuu> Then you use the OpenGFX font if you hasn't selected a system TTF font.
11:40:55 <LordAro> Rubidium/whoever: i'm not sure that the 32bpp sprites should be included in the 'main' opengfx, perhaps a branch of it instead?
11:41:12 <planetmaker> Why shouldn't they?
11:41:19 <K0L3C> Rubidium: I've murdered that bug.
11:41:23 <K0L3C> It wasn't a lady bug though.
11:41:44 <K0L3C> Doesn't OpenGFX already have TTF font?
11:41:59 <planetmaker> and it can't have
11:42:13 <K0L3C> Then what do to fix it/
11:42:22 <Rubidium> LordAro: I would envision a 8bpp only OpenGFX build and a 32bpp/EZ "enriched" OpenGFX build
11:42:45 <LordAro> that is precisely what i was thinking :)
11:42:55 <Zuu> The sprite in OpenGFX that contains that character that you have problem with has probably wrong boundary size.
11:42:59 <Rubidium> where the former can be extracted from the latter during the building stage by means of stripping the 32bpp/EZ sprites out of OpenGFX
11:43:03 <planetmaker> But there's no need for a branch whatsoever, LordAro
11:43:14 <planetmaker> for the reason Rubi just mentioned
11:43:34 <Zuu> K0L3C: So unless planetmaker as already noted the bug as a ticket, you should report your problem in the OpenGFX development thread.
11:43:53 <Rubidium> LordAro: where I said -n I meant -u. Compiling with -n takes much longer as it tries to find the best compression whereas -u saves the sprites "uncompressed"
11:44:00 <planetmaker> though it looks funnily familiar
11:44:06 <K0L3C> Zuu: It'll be hard for me to explain because my english dictionary is poor.
11:44:40 <Zuu> The screenshot you made, is showing your problem and you managed to explain it here.
11:44:49 <LordAro> planetmaker/Rubidium: ah, ok, that also makes sense :)
11:44:54 <K0L3C> Duh, then I need to make the forum account.
11:45:34 <LordAro> how to make a tar file from terminal?
11:45:45 <Zuu> tar -cf my_tar.tar my_files
11:46:28 <Zuu> my_files can of course either be a list of several files, a dictionary or using glob.
11:47:44 <K0L3C> I should post it in OpenTTD Graphics right?
11:47:44 <Zuu> planetmaker: will that tar ever be completed?
11:47:53 <K0L3C> Or rather Graphics Development?
11:48:00 <LordAro> thats better Archive Manager (File Roller?) seems to screw up the symlinks...
11:48:14 <planetmaker> K0L3C: the OpenGFX thread in the graphics development forum
11:48:17 <Rubidium> LordAro: why would you need symlinks?
11:48:45 <LordAro> for the tar format, caused the sprites to be 0bytes in megapack, iirc
11:48:55 <Zuu> K0L3C: Graphics Development
11:49:24 <Rubidium> LordAro: but you shouldn't keep the tar format
11:49:53 <LordAro> i know, but for now, and until jupix has more time to update stuff, i shall keep with it
11:50:00 * appe breaks the mood by making planetmaker a strudel
11:50:11 <Rubidium> LordAro: my script is merely meant to show that constructing the NFO from the PNGs is relatively easy and converting that to nml shouldn't be that much of an effort
11:50:34 <Alberth> provided you have sane images
11:50:42 <LordAro> planetmaker/Zuu: great minds think at exactly the same pace :)
11:51:05 <LordAro> Rubidium: yes, but it's also very good at finding errors :)
11:51:39 <Rubidium> though jupix demanding documentation because he doesn't understand the script sounds to me that he isn't really a (software) engineer and that the current procedures might not be the best at all
11:51:47 <Rubidium> it's all pretty untransparent to me
11:52:05 <LordAro> when has he demanded documentation?
11:52:06 <Zuu> K0L3C: Better post in the OpenGFX thread that I and planetmaker linked to than in a new thread
11:52:28 <Zuu> Before someone replies to your post you can delete it and re-post it in the thread.
11:52:34 <Rubidium> LordAro: "I would suggest you write that manual now"
11:52:46 <K0L3C> What the hell is so hard in already giving me a link before me posting.
11:53:09 <Rubidium> to me that sounds like a nicely disguised demand
11:53:49 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the meaning of the word? Or that is isn't disguised at all?
11:54:11 <K0L3C> How do I delete my thread?
11:54:18 <Alberth> planetmaker: perhaps not enough :)
11:54:22 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but he "suggests" it
11:54:29 <Zuu> K0L3C: Click on the "X" of your post.
11:55:10 <K0L3C> And post it where exactly?
11:55:19 <K0L3C> Gimme the link before making another mistake :<
11:55:47 <K0L3C> And make a new post in this thread?
11:55:48 <planetmaker> which now was given three times... :-P
11:56:40 <planetmaker> just reply in that thread
11:58:06 <Yexo> looks like the status bar is not high enough for the font
11:58:20 <K0L3C> Yeah, it's just one little pixel.
11:58:34 <Zuu> Isn't it that the fon't is telling OpenTTD the wrong character height?
11:59:01 <planetmaker> I dimly remember to have seen that *ages* ago.
11:59:13 <planetmaker> though... I thought it was a long-solved issue. Maybe not
11:59:15 <Rubidium> the sprite font has a predefined fontsize
11:59:20 <Yexo> Zuu: if it's the pixel font in OpenGFX: the font size is hardcoded
11:59:29 <planetmaker> Maybe the font characters are just too high for the sprite fonts. And there's no re-sizing done for them
11:59:32 <K0L3C> Maybe making the name bar one-two pixels bigger will fix hat?
11:59:41 <Rubidium> and thus the sprite font is drawn too high
11:59:52 <planetmaker> K0L3C: rather making the letter one px smaller
12:00:03 <Zuu> Or they might overflow at other places.
12:00:07 <K0L3C> Then it will be an S with a .
12:00:12 <Alberth> K0L3C: name bar adjusts itself to the size of the contents
12:00:25 <planetmaker> Alberth: but not to sprite fonts, or?
12:00:32 <appe> how come "full load any any cargo" doesnt make the train load ..full of cargo?
12:00:36 <planetmaker> their size is hard-coded to 6, 12, 18 px
12:00:41 <planetmaker> or something like that
12:00:41 <Yexo> planetmaker: it does, to the hardcoded size of the sprite fonts
12:00:48 <Alberth> planetmaker: to the size that the fonts say they have ;)
12:00:49 <appe> it loads 50% of the carts with 100%, and the other half with 50%.
12:01:04 <planetmaker> Alberth: the font cannot say it has ;-) It's in fontconfig.cpp or so
12:01:06 <Zuu> appe: Do you have more than one cargo type on yoru train?
12:01:21 <Zuu> That order makes sure one cargo type is loaded 100%.
12:01:42 <Zuu> Pick the "Full load" order if you want to full load all cargo types.
12:03:34 <appe> Zuu: yes, i do. though, when the train stops at a station that supplies only one of the cargo, it doesnt fill up all of the carts with the stuff.
12:05:00 <_maddy> anyone available who could look at my savegame and help me with one problem?
12:05:49 <Rubidium> I guess that depends on the version of OpenTTD and the actual problem
12:06:04 <planetmaker> and on asking the actual question
12:06:07 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
12:07:41 <_maddy> it's a routing/junction problem, my first question is how well does it work that trains get a penalty when passing a pathsignal from the backside (and using that to set a priority)
12:09:32 <_maddy> have 2 tracks, and want trains to take left if it is free, otherwise the right one...I have 2 types of trains, and it works for one, but not the other
12:10:06 <Zuu> How does the train types differ?
12:10:40 <_maddy> different cargo, and different destination station, so the route is a bit different, but that is a long way from this junction
12:10:41 <Alberth> 'other' is not behind the first one? trains also avoid driving too close to a pre-decessor
12:11:48 <_maddy> Alberth: not sure what you mean
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12:15:29 <_maddy> so my first question is, what is the recommended way to do priorities? and what kind of penalty does passing of pathsignal from the backside give to the pathfinder?
12:17:23 <Alberth> if two trains are driving after each other close to each other, the second one will try to find a different route to avoid getting blocked by the first one
12:18:36 <_maddy> not related to my scenario though
12:20:06 <Alberth> if you open openttd.cfg with a text editor, you can see the penalties in the section called [pf]
12:20:46 <_maddy> thanks, that's useful, now we are getting somewhere
12:22:13 <_maddy> you can modify all of them with texteditor, or does openttd overwrite the file?
12:23:10 <Alberth> openttd writes the file on exit, normally
12:23:23 <Alberth> you can also change them in-game from the console
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12:24:26 <Alberth> note that my cfg file is quite old, and it may contain old and obsolete settings
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12:25:18 <_maddy> so yapf looks ahead 10 signals by default?
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12:26:16 <Alberth> no idea, I never looked at those settings
12:27:29 <Alberth> I am happy with whatever the trains pick
12:27:35 <planetmaker> that's what I recall to be true
12:29:13 <_maddy> the values are interesting, penalty for first red is 1000 but 1500 for passing a pbs signal from the back
12:29:47 <Alberth> planetmaker: sounds like a lot, perhaps for people with very short block length
12:31:58 <planetmaker> Alberth: it's at that value as long as I remember. Or I don't remember seeing a change there
12:32:24 * K0L3C wonders what's the reason of plastic bottles making shooting sounds in the dark.
12:32:50 <Alberth> planetmaker: a typical case of "don't fix it if it isn't broken" :)
12:34:19 <planetmaker> especially these PF values
12:34:40 <K0L3C> planetmaker, because you are not a human being, but probably an intelligent unknown creature from outter space, please explain it to me, why plastic bottles sometimes make shooting sounds in the dark.
12:35:47 <planetmaker> pressure gradients and low Young's modulus?
12:36:13 <K0L3C> Hmm, makes sense. Do you know motivations of plastic bottles doing that?
12:36:14 <Alberth> K0L3C: it's an illusion, they do it in day-light too
12:36:21 <K0L3C> Do they want to slowly murder every human on Earth?
12:36:42 <planetmaker> no. only selected individuals. For thorough examination and replacement by a bot
12:37:48 <_maddy> ok, seems I got this somewhat fixed by adjusting the penalty signal a bit further back, thrus reducing its value
12:42:07 <_maddy> Alberth: I'm such a newbie to this game that I can barely make any junctions work, I will have to play a lot more before trying to figure out complex things like that
12:44:35 <K0L3C> "Can teenagers party without alcohol" "Yes. But why?"
12:49:41 <planetmaker> K0L3C: with random, unmotivated total off-topic highlights you won't make friends here
12:50:08 <K0L3C> planetmaker: But I wanted to ask Alberth if that's possible to make two planes crash into themselves in mid air.
12:50:36 <MNIM> my PC is telling me that my internal HD is about to crash and burn.
12:50:36 <planetmaker> yes, it's possible. Go through the news of the last years
12:50:47 <MNIM> please excuse me while I freak the fuck out.
12:51:00 <K0L3C> Evacuate to the nuclear bunker.
12:51:19 <K0L3C> And get some anti-depressants.
12:51:32 <andythenorth> MNIM: stop freaking out. start backing up, carefully
12:51:41 <andythenorth> in priority order
12:51:46 <planetmaker> and, K0L3C, if you have a general question, it's good behaviour to not highlight a specific person. Unless you know that this person and only that person can answer your question
12:51:47 <MNIM> That's what Im doing right now.
12:51:51 <andythenorth> if you try and backup *everything* you may stress the drive
12:51:59 <andythenorth> so pick what you really don't want to lose
12:52:03 <K0L3C> Okay planetmaker, I won't./
12:52:11 <MNIM> Yeah, only gonna save ~ and my self-made stuff from XPlane.
12:52:27 <MNIM> the rest should be recoverable with an install disk or two.
12:52:33 <andythenorth> and maybe stay out of other apps ;) they may be hitting disk for swap etc
12:53:10 <MNIM> ...Uh. why is my home folder some ten GB large?
12:55:03 <K0L3C> What's the biggest memory unit existing on PC's?
12:55:19 <K0L3C> The biggest one I've heard of was a Petabyte or something like that, which is 1024TB
12:56:02 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 4722366482869645213696
12:56:23 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't that be like a Yobbiebyte? :p
12:56:43 <K0L3C> That's hard to calculate to PB's
12:56:47 <planetmaker> MNIM: 10 GB for your home folder is... small
12:57:03 <planetmaker> considering that all your data should reside therein (or sub folders)
12:57:26 <Rubidium> 1 yottabyte = 1024 zetta byte = 1048576 exa byte = Afrekening hosting server 2011
12:57:27 <MNIM> Well, I avoid putting any self-made data in there, but game data and settings do reside there.
12:57:52 <planetmaker> MNIM: where do you put your data then, if not in your home dir?
12:57:53 <MNIM> and a lot of that is hard to reproduce.
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12:58:08 <MNIM> separate drives, in face.
12:58:13 <planetmaker> yes... but aren't they part of the home dir?
12:58:22 <Rubidium> = 1073741824 petabyte
12:58:29 <MNIM> other drives reside in /media/
12:58:35 <MNIM> at least they do in buntu 10.10
12:58:39 <planetmaker> sounds tedious. I mount my 2nd HDD to ~/data :-)
12:59:12 <andythenorth> my ~/ is so big it's still calculating :P
12:59:17 <Rubidium> though I must've made an error
12:59:25 <MNIM> automount. anyway, I prefer it to have programs pull data from the main drive, not the external disk.
12:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> /media is for automounted stuff, i mount my drives in /mnt, and put symlinks to them in ~
12:59:50 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1208925819614629174706176
13:00:04 <Rubidium> that's better for number of bytes in a yottabyte
13:00:45 <planetmaker> hm, is there a way to start the SE with a complete map generated?
13:00:55 <planetmaker> without the need to click half a dozen times?
13:01:08 <MNIM> Hmmmh. there's one suspect.
13:01:20 <MNIM> ~/.UT2004 contains at least a gig.
13:01:40 <Rubidium> ~/.VirtualBox contains at least 80GB ;)
13:01:41 <Eddi|zuHause> 917G 795G 123G 87% /home
13:01:44 <MNIM> ah, and there's the rest: ~/.wine contains 7.4GB
13:02:14 <planetmaker> pity. But sounds like a feature request I could write in my own book
13:02:18 <Yexo> ~/openttd contains over 10G, but I'm sure others will beat that
13:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: start a new game, load it in SE?
13:03:15 <Rubidium> my .openttd is only 1.3G
13:03:26 <Yexo> my .openttd is only 422M
13:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: weird, i have 2G
13:03:41 <Yexo> not enough savegames / scenarios
13:03:44 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: more savegames?
13:03:47 <K0L3C> My openttd is only 32MB
13:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause> although, that covers my development grf checkouts
13:04:30 <Rubidium> though I can easily add ~150 MiB of NewGRFs (two NewGRFs to be precises)
13:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: 32bpp-complete? :p
13:05:15 <Rubidium> more 32bpp incomplete
13:05:24 <Rubidium> still so much is missing
13:05:33 <Rubidium> but it's less visible than with opengfx missing sprites
13:05:47 <Rubidium> furthermore there are some graphical issues with 32bpp sprites
13:05:48 <planetmaker> LordAro: btw, is it correct that I found no single sprite in the arctic, toyland, tropical and logo folders?
13:06:07 <Rubidium> e.g. their shadows which glitch significantly when scrolling
13:06:33 <Rubidium> the non-dev doesn't contain sprites beyond the base1 folder
13:06:34 <planetmaker> I downloaded the one from 24 Feb. And found not a single png in those folders
13:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> shadows are just alpha-channel tranparency, or?
13:06:45 <Rubidium> the dev version has sprites in other folders as well
13:07:04 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but they reach far outside of the bounding box of the sprites
13:07:38 <planetmaker> I think all openttd stuff covers 36GB here. Add the ~/Documents/OpenTTD folder with NewGRFs
13:07:50 <planetmaker> and saves which is another 3 ... 5 GB
13:07:58 <LordAro> planetmaker/Rubidium: yes, i think thats because no non-base1 sprite is finished to the satisfaction of the standard pack
13:08:06 <LordAro> alternateively, it may be broken :)
13:08:23 <Rubidium> my script doesn't work on them anyway
13:08:38 <Rubidium> and it even makes temperate sprites show in non temperate climates
13:08:49 <Rubidium> which is why the script is and always remains a hack
13:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> someone explain to me why civ5 stopped working?
13:11:40 <Eddi|zuHause> no such thing here :p
13:12:11 <_maddy> does old age of trains have any negative effects if breakdowns are disabled?
13:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> only that it constantly spams you with old age messages :p
13:13:09 <_maddy> actually, for some reason I'm not getting the old age messages
13:13:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: (apart from I like the names)...I'm having trouble figuring out why PixaSequence and PixaMixer are different classes
13:14:43 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: civ5 via WINE?
13:14:45 <andythenorth> class derived from PixaSequence, with parameters when called -> would do same as PixaMixer?
13:16:18 <Alberth> I'd do it the other way around
13:16:47 <Alberth> making an empty pixa-mixer as base-class, and deriving a pixa-sequence and 'real' pixa-mixers from it
13:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... "27 files could not be checkt and will be redownloaded"
13:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> how the hell did that happen?
13:24:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "download size: 7.7MB, remaining time: 48 hours"
13:25:12 <K0L3C> What the hell of internet is that.
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13:36:14 <andythenorth> Alberth: would the empty PixaMixer implement much?
13:36:20 <andythenorth> I'm kind of stuck on this bit right now :)
13:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: know the concept of "virtual" base classes?
13:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> in python this would be: every function consists of "raise NotImplementedError"
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13:38:35 <andythenorth> sounds like interfaces?
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13:40:45 <Alberth> basically, you make a do-nothing class, containing all functions (raising a NotImplementedError), as a description of the expected interface of such a class.
13:41:26 <andythenorth> then inherit from it, and implement the functions?
13:41:38 * andythenorth is a bit out of depth
13:42:00 <Eddi|zuHause> this is very basic OOP :)
13:42:13 <andythenorth> I always managed to avoid it so far :)
13:42:23 <Alberth> making empty base classes is a bit more advanced :)
13:42:39 <andythenorth> if you use enough 'if' statements, you can avoid OOP for....about 10 years in my case
13:43:19 <Alberth> not sure how long I avoided it, but also for a number of years :)
13:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you can avoid OOP forever, but sometimes it's the most elegant solution :)
13:44:00 <andythenorth> in this case I have to think about the interface for grf authors as well
13:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yay... it actually started...
13:44:18 <andythenorth> will they understand how to derive classes from a virtual base class?
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13:48:21 <andythenorth> I'll implement PixaMixer and PixaSequence separately, simply, then we can see if they can be consolidated
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13:58:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23985 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt lang/english_US.txt toolbar_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#5074]: inconsistent quit/abandon/exit game/scenario/editor strings
14:16:17 <LordAro> would i be correct in saying the repo would (still) be useful for storing sources of 32bpp sprites?
14:24:39 * Alberth stores all sources in a repo
14:25:05 <Alberth> a repo beats manually exchanging & updating files by several miles
14:28:48 <Rubidium> LordAro: the repo being Jupix thing? Then probably not
14:29:18 <Rubidium> the sources should be packaged with the thing compiling them, so if they would be in OpenGFX then the sources must be in OpenGFX
14:29:20 <planetmaker> LordAro: I'd add the usable 32bpp sprites bit by bit to the (existing) OpenGFX repo
14:30:09 <planetmaker> and actually I'd very much appreciate all help I can get there. I can yet create an OpenGFX with 32bpp due to NML not having that support yet. But that's bound to happen soon, I guess
14:30:43 <planetmaker> But then... I think we could already go through what can be included. But... I asked you that 2 months ago already :-)
14:31:08 <LordAro> working on that... :)
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15:24:26 <_maddy> so how did you guys manage to get openttd so stable? I play nightly builds and still pretty much no crashes
15:29:43 <Zuu> _maddy: Any patches that are commited to trunk have to be reviewed and checked before the devs might accept them.
15:30:30 <Zuu> Among the devs themself I would guess that they review the work of others before it is added.
15:31:30 <Zuu> Additionally good bug reports to bugs.openttd.org are useful to iron out bugs.
15:31:43 <MINM> Well, what helps is that with OTTD bugs go before features
15:32:40 <MINM> whereas with most modern coding efforts like, say, mainstream games, where games are released with known bugs because 'oh well, we'll patch that in a week'
15:37:27 <Ammler> openttd has no deadline :-)
15:38:31 <Yexo> most important reason: a lot of big features are not included on grounds of: not stable enough, needs more review, etc.
15:38:42 <frosch123> _maddy: no idea, ottd is crashing for me all day already
15:38:48 <Yexo> even one known bug is a good enough reason not to include some feature
15:42:28 <MINM> Depends on how large that bug is, eh
15:43:34 <planetmaker> more on whether it's a known bug or not ;-)
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17:18:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23986 /trunk/src/spritecache.cpp: -Fix (r23889): Invalid reads when scaling an odd-sized sprite smaller.
17:20:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23987 /trunk/src/ (fontcache.cpp fontcache.h gfxinit.cpp): -Fix (r23000): Also reset the font glyph cache when switching blitters.
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17:22:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23988 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix: Typo in comment.
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17:39:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23989 /trunk/src/blitter/ (32bpp_optimized.cpp 8bpp_optimized.cpp): -Fix-ish: Zero the offsets of disabled zoomlevels.
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17:57:23 <frosch123> psst - don't wake dorpsgek
18:01:18 <K0L3C> What did you do frosch123/!
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18:46:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23990 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:46:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 5 changes by arnau
18:46:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 9 changes by chenwt0315
18:46:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
18:46:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 1 changes by Flexo
18:46:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 6 changes by telk5093
19:02:56 <LordAro> thats the second time you've said that :L
19:03:29 <frosch123> hmm. is "k.A." really the german translation of "N/A"?
19:04:53 <frosch123> K0L3C: i am trying to play ottd in russian, so please stay quiet
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19:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: depends on context
19:11:22 <frosch123> for the cargo amount tab of trains
19:11:50 <frosch123> vehicles show "5 tons of coal", engines show "N/A" in english
19:12:20 <frosch123> german uses "k.A." which probably means "keine Angabe", but i first thought of "keine Ahnung" ...
19:12:42 <frosch123> ... which sounds hillarious :)
19:13:19 <K0L3C> I can't find them sounding hilarious.
19:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> could possibly be replaced with "keine"
19:14:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i once had a program that could view the contents of the registry
19:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but i forgot what it was called
19:14:56 <valhallasw> or do you mean a /different/ registry? ;-)
19:15:09 <Eddi|zuHause> no, "offline", i.e. of a not-running windows
19:17:15 <K0L3C> Eddi|zuHause = Eddi|inHouse? Right?
19:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> K0L3C: more like "at home"
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19:17:46 <K0L3C> Oh, this time I tried to translate it without using the translator.
19:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> which btw. is the location of my computer, not necessarily my current location :)
19:20:36 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: regedit :)
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19:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it was a program where i could enter the location of some system files, and it showed me the content of the registry
19:21:22 <michi_cc> It can both read the registry over LAN if sufficient permissions are present and can also directly read registry files from disk.
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19:27:56 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: so... how?
19:31:51 <michi_cc> Files are normally C:\Windows\System32\config\{SOFTWARE,SYSTEM} and NTUSER.DAT in each profile folder.
19:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> this is all not entirely what i meant
19:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe it works
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20:08:40 <pckm-crazy> i came in hear to aska question
20:09:29 <pckm-crazy> anyone know if chris sawyer is still making games D: or did he just turn his back on making games?
20:10:23 <pckm-crazy> i wanna atleast know what he dose now
20:10:57 <pckm-crazy> he is such a good game maker
20:11:17 <Zuu> have you checked his homepage?
20:11:33 <pckm-crazy> hasent been updated since 2009 D:
20:12:00 <__ln__> you need to contact his agent.
20:13:20 <pckm-crazy> i couldint find anything like that. all i could fine was some links to people who helped him on the game and only one of the returned my email. he was the man who made all the 3-d models. his website is pixleswithpings.co.uk i think
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20:15:14 <pckm-crazy> just tried the link. it never loads D:
20:16:20 <pckm-crazy> wierd...... ill try again
20:18:41 <pckm-crazy> not loading for some reason....
20:19:48 <Zuu> I have no idea how it looks with js blocked as it looks like some css+js dynamic thing.
20:19:51 <pckm-crazy> i dont think so. ill check
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20:22:04 <Yexo> it works fine without javascript
20:22:47 <pckm-crazy> yah, it just dosint load
20:22:59 <pckm-crazy> i wonder if its cause im on my mac
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20:25:28 <Zuu> It should give you something that looks like 1994
20:26:08 <Zuu> hmm, or perhaps more like 1997 when more kids got internet and made ugly websites. :-)
20:27:08 <pckm-crazy> that one starts loading but dosint finish
20:28:57 <Rubidium> maybe Chris Sawyer/Marjacq are doing bad things as described in ACTA and American providers are asked to block that?
20:30:11 <pckm-crazy> oh i rember going to that site a few monthes ago! XD now i rember, i just rember not being able to fine an email or anything
20:31:10 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh i hate windows...
20:31:13 <Zuu> They both have phone number and email on their contact page.
20:31:37 <Zuu> You can even send them a fax
20:31:54 <Zuu> Or at least they have written their fax number in case you can get access to one.
20:33:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: the diagram is conceptual rather than specific to python code
20:34:24 <__ln__> in any case, as far as i know: this channel does not represent Chris Sawyer, and all we know about him is through public sources such as his website.
20:36:52 <Alberth> andythenorth: looks nice, and mostly like I have in mind. the 'coloursets' seem new
20:37:13 <Alberth> but perhaps they were mostly implicit so far
20:37:20 <pckm-crazy> i tried setting up a forum a few years ago to try and contact him, and get a large group of people to come and join to try and show how many people wanted him, but it felt kinda..... stalkerish
20:39:43 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Would it make sense to have a configurable scan order/origin to allow better back/front ordering for different views?
20:41:27 <Alberth> pckm-crazy: why this obsession, he just sold the same game engine three times
20:42:08 <pckm-crazy> its a long sad (very sad actaully) story that you probubly dont wanna read XD
20:42:39 <pckm-crazy> its not just CS ither. its also the makers of the neverhood and maxis. the guys who made cim city
20:43:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: the colour sets were implicit - they're how you specify 1CC or 2CC, or coal or iron ore etc
20:44:01 <andythenorth> they're just another layer of indirection, vars
20:44:38 <Alberth> mostly stuff you organize around the code :p
20:44:50 <andythenorth> michi_cc: configurable scan order makes sense, so far I haven't found a need for it though
20:45:38 <pckm-crazy> but its just the feel. something about the smoothness of chris sawyers games makes it so much more fun
20:45:51 <Alberth> michi_cc: as I understood from andy, you make every view separately, not much re-use of the same sheet for different views
20:46:09 <andythenorth> no I just scan all 8 views at once
20:47:01 <michi_cc> It sill might make sense to start at the left e.g. for \ view and at the right for / so you have a kind of matching back-to-front order.
20:47:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23991 /trunk/src/ (52 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#5076]: Also display the cargo subtype for vehicles which have no capacity, but a subtype.
20:58:00 <andythenorth> if I need to handle back/front ordering issues, it tends to require another render pass anyway (e.g. compositing multiple layers)
20:58:05 <andythenorth> compositing is fairly trivial
21:23:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pretty much now probably, with a bit of work
21:23:59 <andythenorth> check out BANDIT and hack on it if you wish ;)
21:24:08 <andythenorth> btw, you might have another customer for CETS code soon
21:24:23 <andythenorth> one of our canadian friends has decided he likes the cut of your jib
22:16:57 * K0L3C gives alluke a delicious pancake
22:18:10 <K0L3C> Why you won't eat that pancake.
22:18:25 <K0L3C> It's delicious, with cyani- Uh, sugar.
22:18:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23992 /trunk/src/fontcache.h: -Fix: compilation without freetype
22:22:26 <alluke> *eats the delicious pancake
22:22:51 <K0L3C> Ha, it was a poisoned pancake.
22:23:20 <K0L3C> By a guy that I cannot ping.
22:23:35 <alluke> ill die soon and i cant forward it to cops
22:23:36 <K0L3C> I GUARANTEED HIM DISCRETION
22:26:16 <Yexo> first a p, than a backspace, than a k, than a round thingy followed by an el, than a backwards E can finally some half-circle with an opening to the right
22:26:39 <K0L3C> WAIT... PUGI... I KNOW THAT GUY
22:26:53 <K0L3C> Are you the same person that is on #dwarffortress?
22:27:04 <pugi> there is only one pugi :D
22:27:11 <Yexo> perhaps you can take the discussion there?
22:27:15 * valhallasw wonders what the heck is happening with all the youngsters shouting in here
22:27:51 * valhallasw moves back to his reclining chair and turns the volume of his soothing Bach to 11
22:27:53 <pugi> where are the youngsters?
22:28:07 <alluke> valhallasw retirement home is that ------> way :P
22:29:34 *** K0L3C is now known as d0rfer
22:31:36 <valhallasw> d0rfer: a radio? is that some kind of fancy modern equipment? I have a mighty fine phonograph, thank you
22:32:11 <d0rfer> What kind of evil is that?!
22:32:18 * d0rfer throws val's phonograph into the fire
22:36:25 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it's kind of like an ipod
22:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and can't store many songs
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23:21:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
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continue to next day ⏵
