IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-16
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00:00:00 <__ln__> nobody has classes at midnight
00:00:28 <Nat_as> and it was 1:30 when I had my class
00:01:03 <Nat_as> man, "Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only" are the best rules Ever
00:03:05 <planetmaker> you'll laugh how often they're necessary to be pointed out ;-)
00:06:21 <Nat_as> more than Believe the using MS paint to write letters
00:06:59 <Nat_as> man, I have to start the WHOLE MAP AGGAIN
00:13:37 <Nat_as> am I the only one who always turns off "Towns can build roads"?
00:23:06 <DabuYu> Nat_as: that means that towns don't grow otherwise, if you don't maintain it themselves?
00:23:28 <DabuYu> towns do should grow in a better way (like prefering square grids) than they do now :)
00:23:41 <Nat_as> I build roads for them
00:23:58 <DabuYu> oh i sometimes do that too, but there's so many towns around the map
00:24:01 <Nat_as> growing towns is like growing bonsai.
00:24:10 <Nat_as> well only the towns connected to your network matter
00:27:54 <Nat_as> also depeding on the map, they are also the only ones that grow
00:31:42 <Nat_as> I don't think perfect squares are important, but it should try to make some effort at forming city blocks
00:31:58 <Nat_as> maybe a list of acceptable shapes
00:32:39 <Nat_as> roads should not be next to each other, and should also try to avoid gaps wider than 4x4 because then nothing will be built inside the hole
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02:33:04 <Nat_as> do stations have to be continuious for a tram to unload in it?
02:33:10 <Nat_as> does it have to cover the entire lenght?
02:33:15 <Nat_as> for the longer cargo trams
02:33:27 <Nat_as> and long trucks in general I guess.
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03:51:57 <DabuYu> Nat_as: late reply, but no, it's not necessary - but the unloading process goes faster when it's the right length (at least for trains it does)
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04:36:31 <Nat_as> do prices of tunnels ever change?
04:36:48 <Nat_as> because I don't remember them this expensive.
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07:02:03 <Nat_as> what if there was snow plows in arctic maps
07:02:22 <Nat_as> that were nessary above the snow line to prevent trains from slowing down.
07:02:52 <peter1138> there are snow plows in some newgrf sets
07:04:04 <Nat_as> do they have a mechanical effect or is it just cosmetic?
07:04:13 <Nat_as> I like it when things like cabooses have effects
07:04:43 <Nat_as> like freight trains need them unless the cars have continuous brakes.
07:04:55 <Nat_as> or passinger trains need an engine with a steam heat unit.
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07:29:40 <Nat_as> somebody make a newgrif of it
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08:11:39 <peter1138> it appears to be quite massive
08:25:11 <Nat_as> although the centennial and big boy are only .5 cars long in the original sets so your mileage may vary.
08:25:34 <Nat_as> I'd just make this a 4 car long engine that can only carry high capacity passenger and mail cars.
08:25:52 <Nat_as> three front cars, and one tail car are part of the engine.
08:26:01 <Nat_as> and you add in doublestack cars in the middle.
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09:03:52 * dihedral scrolls through bugs. in the hope to find something to do ^^
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10:12:03 <dihedral> TrueBrain, is there an api available to the openttd website? e.g. authentication?
10:14:16 <TrueBrain> API for news, yes, RSS; API for WT3, yes, Frontend uses it. API for bugs, yes, RSS. And a few more of those. Authentication, of course not. We are not an Signon Broker :)
10:15:09 <dihedral> i was wondering if i could create a thingy for the admin port that would authenticate against openttd accounts ^^
10:15:36 <dihedral> via SOAP... via SOAP... :-P
10:15:50 <TrueBrain> I was about to comment you can of course via the most obvious way in front of you
10:15:55 <TrueBrain> but via SOAP: never
10:16:18 <dihedral> sending a post request :-P
10:16:36 <TrueBrain> just make a HTTP POST, yes :P But .. that I would not really appreciate
10:16:39 <TrueBrain> for the obvious reasons
10:17:01 <peter1138> dihedral gets all our passwords
10:17:04 <TrueBrain> in regards to logins on a server, I have some drafts to make a trusted chain, but .. hmm .. dont seem to have the time to implement any of it
10:17:30 <dihedral> i would not start doing posts to the server, which is why i asked for an api ;-)
10:17:34 <TrueBrain> peter1138: and for exactly that reason I would dsadvise anyone from using such login 'portal's :D
10:17:37 <dihedral> else i would have just gone ahead ^^
10:18:13 <TrueBrain> it all doesnt really matter; how ever we play broker, we cannot give any promises you (or anyone else) doesnt .. 'use' the password for other goals
10:18:27 <Rhamphoryncus> TrueBrain: you admin the website? Does that include the wiki?
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10:18:35 <dihedral> who says i need to send username and password? i could simply ask "is this ip authenticated" :-P
10:18:44 <TrueBrain> if anything, the client has to contact our server directly, get a token back, with which you can do validation
10:19:12 <TrueBrain> dihedral: too many people are behind the same IP
10:19:17 <TrueBrain> doesnt really give any form of trust
10:19:50 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: topic [<channel>]
10:19:54 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: topic [<channel>]
10:20:01 <TrueBrain> how does that crappy thing work?
10:20:02 <DorpsGek> dihedral: 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever
10:20:11 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Don't ask to ask, just ask
10:21:07 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, turns out asking first is sometimes a good idea. Otherwise I'd just repeat the same annoying every couple hours :P
10:21:14 <dihedral> would you (want to) implement that directly into openttd
10:21:25 <TrueBrain> dihedral: if anything, it is required, in my opinion
10:21:33 <dihedral> Rhamphoryncus, only untill you get the first kick :-P
10:21:34 <TrueBrain> I dont see another way without leaving us open to a shitton of abuse :P
10:22:12 <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: which only makes me that much more right in asking first. Don't ask a question unless you expect someone can answer.
10:22:38 <dihedral> no - ask once, if of interest someone will answer*
10:22:42 <TrueBrain> but dont except anyone can answer, without asking the question
10:22:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Anyway, thumbnail files are often much, much larger than the original image. Known issue?
10:23:12 <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: my experience here is to the contrary
10:23:36 * dihedral was not being serious
10:24:01 <dihedral> TrueBrain, what about using s/mime certs? :-P
10:24:36 <TrueBrain> with NoGo the conversation pretty quickly ended up on servers which keep score
10:24:39 <TrueBrain> so you can compare etc
10:24:49 <TrueBrain> with that the reaslisation came that only works if you can uniquely identify people
10:25:00 <TrueBrain> I once tried it with 'uniqueid' in openttd.cfg, but that was a ... huge failure :P
10:25:09 <TrueBrain> as people copy their config WAY too much :P
10:25:36 <TrueBrain> so only other sane solution I could think off, was a centralized authentication with validation tokens for NoGo scripts to handle (which of course gets offloaded to the admin port)
10:25:42 <dihedral> yes, but checking back with the master server could say if 'a' client is already online with that s/mime cert
10:26:02 <TrueBrain> too much bookkeeping
10:26:27 <TrueBrain> well, I guess it depends
10:26:35 <TrueBrain> I guess it is the same as a validation token
10:26:40 <TrueBrain> which have to be stored either way
10:26:52 <dihedral> but you already have a backend
10:27:04 <TrueBrain> but if you are only interested in clients
10:27:07 <TrueBrain> you already know that
10:27:14 <TrueBrain> I assume you want some kind of trust based on the name of that client
10:27:26 <dihedral> but you are interested in knowing the client ;-)
10:27:47 <dihedral> and if you get the feedback of - this cert is being used on 2 other servers ...
10:27:59 <dihedral> rather 1 other server, do not allow the connection
10:28:17 <TrueBrain> and that part is a bit too much bookkeeping :P
10:28:25 <TrueBrain> I was thinking a lot more simpler :)
10:28:32 <dihedral> it's a mysql db entry - hash -> server
10:28:34 <TrueBrain> as I dont care if you are logged in to 12 servers :P
10:28:47 <Rubidium> dihedral: maybe you can finish joan and friends to become a working replacement for AP(+)?
10:28:52 <dihedral> but then i create an account and share it with 12 others
10:29:11 <dihedral> i am already working on that ;-)
10:29:14 <TrueBrain> dihedral: against our TOS :P
10:29:17 <peter1138> is a n-bit crypto key that starts with a 0 bit an n-bit key or an (n-1)-bit key?
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10:29:40 <dihedral> TrueBrain, but how would you check up on that without a bit of bookkeeping
10:29:57 <TrueBrain> not. that is the point
10:30:32 <TrueBrain> sounds like a pain in the tits if you can only be logged in to 1 server
10:30:44 <dihedral> what if that depends on the server?
10:30:49 <TrueBrain> of course if you know which client is connected, you can deny access to a client in a cluster of servers
10:30:59 <TrueBrain> but that is up to an admin script; not from the centralized point of view
10:31:19 <TrueBrain> all you as admin script want to know is: is this client really who he says he is
10:32:18 <dihedral> i would accept a 0-255, 0 false, 1 - you are the first server, 2 you are the second server ...
10:32:29 <TrueBrain> and again, that is too much bookkeeping
10:32:35 <TrueBrain> it is not our job, as openttd.org, to keep track of that
10:32:39 <TrueBrain> that is your job, as admin script
10:33:22 <dihedral> however only if a unique id is then sent to the admin script
10:33:24 <TrueBrain> and it ensures us that things can only go wrong on a cluster of servers, as in .. hmm .. how to say this delecate without offending any possible loggers .. :P
10:33:36 <TrueBrain> if you decide in your cluster of servers to only allow to be logged in to 1 server
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10:33:48 <TrueBrain> but dont fuck a client over by not allowing him to login to another cluster of servers :)
10:33:52 <TrueBrain> that is a bit the mean idea :)
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10:35:59 <TrueBrain> anyway, doing the validation of a client is kinda hard :)
10:36:06 <TrueBrain> so many options and posibilities
10:36:16 <TrueBrain> do you ask for a username / password, and change the nickname to the username?
10:36:22 <TrueBrain> do you allow custom nicknames?
10:36:32 <TrueBrain> does our website give you a token you use as validation of your account? (as client)
10:38:20 <TrueBrain> or, in reverse, does the server give you a token you have to enter in our website to allow that server access to validate you?
10:38:27 <dihedral> i would not tamper with the chosen username, but i would set a username stored in the token / cert in order for admins to see, or displayed in the clients command
10:38:44 <dihedral> that method would be nice, but too slow
10:38:56 <dihedral> unless openttd does that itself
10:40:38 <dihedral> client joins server, client informs ottd of the server it is joining, ottd sends ack to server
10:40:57 <dihedral> of course only if the server is known to ottd
10:41:12 <TrueBrain> what my optimal form is: when you go to multiplayer, you can select 2 modes: authenticated servers, and non-authenticated servers. For the first, you get a login button, where you enter your username + password, and allows you to join both authenticated and non-authenticated. The last works with a nickname only.
10:41:27 <TrueBrain> but that is kinda a huge step for OpenTTD
10:42:32 <TrueBrain> dihedral: how it is done on a technical level is not really in order here. The question is much more: how do you present it to the client
10:43:22 <TrueBrain> authenticated servers can have a few perks, like a company can lock down immediatly, and that you can add usernames to a whitelist, for example
10:43:30 <TrueBrain> which, to just talk crazy, can be configured on openttd.org
10:43:39 <TrueBrain> (I am just being silly here and thinking out loud, mind you)
10:44:17 <dihedral> why would it be a too huge step for ottd?
10:44:48 <TrueBrain> gradial changes are always easier :)
10:45:34 <dihedral> an extra login button on the main menu
10:45:41 <peter1138> all good fun when your auth server goes down and you can longer play
10:45:46 <TrueBrain> what I just suggested is not only an extra button :)
10:45:55 <dihedral> + console commands, so it could be scripted with the autostart script
10:46:10 <TrueBrain> peter1138: as much harm as the MSU goes down, I imagine
10:46:20 <TrueBrain> which .. happen to be on the same server
10:46:46 <blathijs> TrueBrain: Just implement OAuth!
10:47:14 <dihedral> blathijs, but that does not stop people from having tons of accounts ;-)
10:47:16 <blathijs> (though that's more web-focused..)
10:47:27 <dihedral> this way TrueBrain has to give away the account details manually :-D
10:47:28 <TrueBrain> and doesnt really give help to how to present it to the client, does it? :)
10:47:46 <dihedral> why would the client be that much affected
10:48:00 <dihedral> a login button, a popup window with username / password would be all the client gets to notice
10:48:19 <dihedral> an extra padlock with open / closed symbol in the server list ...
10:48:48 <blathijs> dihedral: Not sure why you want to stop people from having a ton of accounts, couldn't find the reason in my backlog (though I didn't read supercarefully)
10:48:56 <dihedral> i would not change anything regarding the companies in the game
10:49:17 <dihedral> blathijs, the backlog would probably go back a few years for this topic ;-)
10:49:35 <dihedral> it's to prevent those causing trouble to constantly join with new accounts
10:49:57 <TrueBrain> just use a karma system for that
10:49:59 <blathijs> Ah, it's about banning :-)
10:50:11 <dihedral> it's about knowing who joins
10:50:14 <blathijs> I thought it was about using your openttd.org account to administrate a server
10:50:19 <TrueBrain> well, I was more talking about statistics, but he :)
10:50:28 <TrueBrain> blathijs: hmm, that is a nice one too :P
10:50:41 <dihedral> and then selling the data to ....
10:51:27 <dihedral> i was getting tons of ad requests to one of my webservers, where the query included the size of the img to use, etc.
10:51:49 <dihedral> i was about to add an image of openttd
10:52:01 <dihedral> so they all place an openttd ad banner on their pages
10:52:29 <TrueBrain> afk a few, roommate needs help
10:52:30 <dihedral> however i decided to go for a rewrite rule wich forwarded them to a php script which gave a 404 and added the source ip to the iptables list with -j DROP ^^
10:54:52 <dihedral> 77 hosts gathered so far ^^
11:00:04 <Arafangion> dihedral: A very significant number!
11:00:56 <dihedral> 77 hosts requesting an image with every request those severs get is not a small number
11:01:07 <dihedral> i had something like an extra 45GB of traffic in 2 days
11:01:39 <dihedral> even though all requests ran into a 404
11:01:47 <Rhamphoryncus> dihedral: image that says "This image is requested from the wrong site. Here's some rick astley instead."
11:01:48 <dihedral> (before i added the script)
11:02:17 <dihedral> that would have been even more traffic for me ^^
11:02:24 <Rhamphoryncus> Ouch, okay, drop rule wins on that one
11:02:46 <dihedral> not that i am concerned about the traffic, but on that server i prefer having less activity than too much
11:03:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Could make 1% produce the image instead :D
11:04:08 <Rhamphoryncus> Or "This html-monkey is incompetent, got the image host wrong, and probably sleeps with their mother."
11:05:24 <dihedral> i could just sell ad space :-P
11:06:50 <Xaroth> return a 302 redirecting them to goatse ?
11:06:51 <blathijs> dihedral: Or doe a 301 redirect to some big image on their own site ;-p
11:07:23 <Arafangion> Nah, have it redirect to some large file on a *different* site!
11:07:28 <dihedral> a 301 was not working - the script must have been quite bad as the request still ran onto my ip
11:07:40 <dihedral> i tried to redirect them to google :-P
11:07:58 <TrueBrain> I would never permaban such IPs, openttd.org doesnt have any list of such kind, no, not at all
11:08:43 <TrueBrain> just tearpit those IPs, just because it can be done
11:08:59 <TrueBrain> TCP default timeout is 480 seconds, so ..
11:09:10 <TrueBrain> accept the connection, ack it, and let it sit there
11:09:20 <TrueBrain> (close it on your side without RST)
11:09:31 <TrueBrain> so their side builds up a shitload of 'open' connections
11:09:37 <TrueBrain> should teach them not to be rude
11:10:19 <TrueBrain> that is how I deal with email spammers too
11:10:57 <TrueBrain> abusing the nature of TCP I guess
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11:15:14 <TrueBrain> anyway, dihedral, the best solution I can think off as a quick solution would be if the adminport gives an URL to the clients connecting to validate themself, and that on openttd.org we create something to do that :P But it sounds like a lot of work for a hack :D
11:17:03 <dihedral> and they then log in to the website? and then the server gets an ack from the master server?
11:17:23 <TrueBrain> the first, yes, the second, no
11:17:30 <dihedral> in which case i can imagine bugs. overflowing with 'allow copy and paste' or 'embed an html browser'
11:17:31 <TrueBrain> the first would also be like: if you are already logged in, you press a button
11:17:48 <TrueBrain> that is why I dont like it and called it a hack :D
11:18:06 <dihedral> i do not like it either
11:18:06 <Arafangion> Or rather, the site that gives teh hash - or does the openttd server itself give it?
11:18:19 <dihedral> the ottd server gives the hash
11:18:34 <TrueBrain> nah, dont be silly :)
11:18:45 <TrueBrain> it would be in the form of <uniqueserveridrequestedbyadminport>/<hash>
11:18:58 <Arafangion> dihedral: It actually sounds prefectly reasonable to me, provided the openttd client allows you to click on such a link, and have it appear in a browser.
11:19:02 <TrueBrain> where hash is md5("thingtoldtheserverbyadminport" + username)
11:19:10 <dihedral> i quite like the idea of s/mime certs - as you have your token with that, and you can store further details in the cert
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11:20:38 <TrueBrain> it is too complex for a simple: yeah, this user is valid, system :)
11:20:46 <dihedral> all one needs to add is a setting in the config: path to cert, and send the modulus to the server, the server then talks to the master server passing the modulus and gets information such as valid/not valid, and username
11:20:50 <TrueBrain> we are not going to store any other information than: yes, I know this user, and it is valid :)
11:21:36 <dihedral> you do not have to - all you need to store is the token (which you must anyway) but you still have the ability to revoke them
11:21:54 <dihedral> the other information is stored inside the token
11:22:08 <TrueBrain> which is not what we are going to do :)
11:22:11 <TrueBrain> that is for an adminport to do
11:22:18 <Ammler> why is oauth bad for this?
11:22:26 <TrueBrain> wuth? Who said that?
11:22:53 <Ammler> because it sounds like you prefer to find a own solution :-)
11:23:05 <TrueBrain> I guess I have to repeat myself again .. one sec :D
11:23:22 <TrueBrain> [11:42] <TrueBrain> dihedral: how it is done on a technical level is not really in order here. The question is much more: how do you present it to the client
11:23:49 <TrueBrain> and I guess we can add: and what information the adminport receives :P
11:24:05 <TrueBrain> but that will only be: user is authenticated yes/no :)
11:24:41 <dihedral> the admin port would have to receive more information than authenticated yes/no ;-)
11:24:56 <TrueBrain> which is exactly why I dont want it; it shouldnt!
11:25:03 <TrueBrain> any information it has, it should have gathered himself
11:25:17 <TrueBrain> openttd.org is _not_ in the business of distributing information of users
11:25:37 <TrueBrain> Ammler: it only tells you if a client with a username is authenticated, meaning that is his username on the openttd.org site, yes :P
11:25:45 <TrueBrain> but that is an implication of the authenticated part :)
11:27:24 <dihedral> TrueBrain, regarding buiding statistics across a cluster, the admin port needs a constant hash ;-)
11:27:36 <TrueBrain> like said, it has a username
11:27:41 <TrueBrain> it is all it needs, and should want
11:27:55 <dihedral> but the username can be changed
11:28:01 <TrueBrain> a cluster on its turn can than have a site where you can give additional information for all I care, but that is not openttd.org's job
11:28:07 <TrueBrain> can you change your username on openttd.org?
11:28:09 <TrueBrain> that is completely new to me
11:28:13 <Ammler> dihedral: but then he needs to register again
11:28:47 <dihedral> TrueBrain, ah ;-) i was not aware that you want to then force the person to also play by that username ;-)
11:28:57 <TrueBrain> well, I tempt very much to that
11:29:01 <TrueBrain> but tbh, I dont fucking care
11:29:05 <dihedral> of course it is nice as that way you can reserve a nick across all servers that support the auth system
11:29:10 <TrueBrain> as long as the login is username/password, *shrug*
11:29:12 <Ammler> maybe that can be a server setting then
11:29:27 <TrueBrain> if you force those two to be the same
11:29:33 <TrueBrain> TrueBrain is always me on such servers
11:29:58 <TrueBrain> personally, I am more radical, and would disallow non-authenticated servers from the normal multiplayer list
11:30:04 <TrueBrain> but I am pretty sure many will dislike that :P
11:30:16 <Arafangion> It'd stop people like me from playing on them entirely.
11:30:30 <TrueBrain> a good thing I dont know you :P :D
11:30:34 <Ammler> Arafangion: servers don't need to use the service
11:30:43 <Arafangion> But if you could click on links and have them open, it might work. (as a user)
11:31:01 <Arafangion> Ammler: The data has to come from somewhere, though. Just having a website keep track fo things is annoying enough.
11:31:02 <dihedral> that wont happen either :-P
11:31:04 <TrueBrain> I started to grown to hate servers where you dont know if mister A is really mister A, of someone pretending to be mister A ..:(
11:31:27 <dihedral> that for sure is true
11:31:59 <TrueBrain> Minecraft kinda solved that nicely in my book
11:32:57 <dihedral> i have no idea how they handle that
11:33:00 <TrueBrain> but there, as pointed out earlier, if the auth server crashes, no MC :P
11:33:08 <TrueBrain> when you launch your game you authenticate
11:33:21 <TrueBrain> when you join a server you tell the MC-auth that, and the server requests that again from the MC-auth
11:33:24 <TrueBrain> in simplified terms
11:33:37 <TrueBrain> your basic authentication
11:33:45 <TrueBrain> but all clients NEED to be logged in, basically
11:33:55 <TrueBrain> unless the server explicitely disables it, but meh :P
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11:34:14 <TrueBrain> so on normal MC servers, if you see TrueBrain, it is me
11:34:32 <dihedral> i would work the other way round - if you introduce the system at this moment, i would set all servers to NOT support the system unless they explicitly set it to do so
11:34:50 <dihedral> but the idea is good :-)
11:35:07 <TrueBrain> but the more we talk about this
11:35:10 <dihedral> and servers have the ability to change the nick of a client already, in order to enforce that
11:35:12 <TrueBrain> the more I realise you also want some kind of web access
11:35:27 <dihedral> in order to change the password?
11:35:29 <TrueBrain> as you might want to login to a cluster
11:35:31 <V453000> openttd will have nickname database? or? :D
11:35:52 <dihedral> the stats ... is that then not up to the hoster of the openttd server and the admin port?
11:36:03 <dihedral> as you do not want to store those details with openttd :-P
11:36:08 <TrueBrain> but say I want to see MY stats
11:36:19 <TrueBrain> how do I authenticate myself against YOUR website with my openttd.org details?
11:36:36 <dihedral> the same way you auth with the openttd server?
11:36:37 <Ammler> TrueBrain: that can be done later, with the edit profile form :-P
11:36:47 <TrueBrain> dihedral: which is much less simple :D
11:36:57 <dihedral> but not your problem ;-)
11:37:13 <dihedral> just as writing the bot to handle the stats from the admin port
11:37:24 <dihedral> people will write a lib as soon as the protocol is available
11:37:33 <TrueBrain> but like how we started this conversation
11:37:48 <TrueBrain> I do not (!!) want to fill in my username+password on YOUR website (no offense to you of course)
11:37:55 <dihedral> still - an s/mime cert could be implemented in the browser and remove that problem :-D
11:38:48 * dihedral feels a burning stare from TrueBrain
11:38:57 <Ammler> dihedral: there are 3 or 4 libs handling the admin port but still no productive app using it
11:39:05 <TrueBrain> nah; I moved on a while ago on that idea :P
11:39:07 <Rhamphoryncus> MC could be done much more robustly. When the client authenticates to the login server give it a signed token that lasts 1 week. Tell the client to attempt reauthentication after 5 days (means they have a 2 day grace period). Token is passed to game server when connecting, which only needs to verify that it is signed correctly and not expired.
11:39:53 <dihedral> that would also work for the website then
11:40:04 <TrueBrain> Rhamphoryncus: you are kinda missing an important part: if you login to a server, the client tells it is going to
11:40:09 <TrueBrain> preventing anyone from abusing my session
11:40:29 <Rhamphoryncus> TrueBrain: hmm?
11:40:46 <dihedral> what about working the other way round?
11:41:23 <dihedral> a config setting which allows giving the master server a url for a webservice, which allows openttd to fetch the data
11:41:32 <dihedral> simply by requesting data for the username
11:41:44 <dihedral> makes it more complicated on the openttd.org side of things
11:41:53 <TrueBrain> try to rephrase that
11:41:54 <dihedral> but stops people from passing login details to other websites
11:41:56 <TrueBrain> as it is kinda cryptic :P
11:42:22 <dihedral> if i host a openttd server, the master server knows ip, port, game name, type, year, etc.
11:42:35 <dihedral> add another field for a webservice
11:42:56 <dihedral> the webservice is only the for openttd.org to fetch stats by sending a username and recieving further information
11:43:34 <dihedral> so the user TrueBrain logs in to a openttd.org website - wants statistics, openttd.org polls the server's webservice for details
11:43:53 <TrueBrain> no, I dont want openttd.org to be that
11:44:06 <TrueBrain> it should be in the middle of a cluster of servers to help the authentication
11:44:20 <TrueBrain> as what you suggest is full of exploitable possibilities
11:44:40 <dihedral> yes, i would mean you have to trust the server hosters
11:44:53 <Rhamphoryncus> IMO this is way over-engineered. <TrueBrain> I once tried it with 'uniqueid' in openttd.cfg, but that was a ... huge failure :P <--- Put it in a separate file so it doesn't get copied.
11:45:28 <dihedral> i am not sure copying is the only issue ;-)
11:45:54 <Rhamphoryncus> This isn't a pay-service. There's nothing to restrict someone from having 10000 accounts.
11:46:10 <dihedral> donate and you get an account :-P
11:46:13 <Rhamphoryncus> Even with minecraft there's shitloads of griefing.
11:47:00 <dihedral> i am not sure if TrueBrain would make it an automated services
11:47:56 <Rhamphoryncus> So then it's a clique.
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11:48:20 <Rhamphoryncus> If it's a manual service then random-new-person has a barrier to getting in
11:48:28 <Rhamphoryncus> So most of the userbase will not be involved
11:50:34 <dihedral> i.e. i do not think TrueBrain and Rubidium have had a vast amount of chats with all those who are registered as translators ;-)
11:51:11 <TrueBrain> I Do agree with the suggestion: pay to play
11:51:18 <TrueBrain> and I will be rich of course
11:51:29 <dihedral> pay to play on auth servers only
11:51:45 <TrueBrain> we just give it a buzz word
11:51:58 <TrueBrain> and then ingame you have to buy Maglev
11:52:02 <TrueBrain> for .. 10 EUR reasonable?
11:52:32 <dihedral> talking of huge changes ;-)
11:53:13 <TrueBrain> talking about having no players in 1 month :P
11:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think i broke widelands...
11:53:29 <TrueBrain> would finally solve having the same amount of servers as clients
11:53:45 <Eddi|zuHause> every few seconds it uses 100% CPU, and when i save it, it says "bad_alloc"
11:54:40 <dihedral> TrueBrain, that time period has been gone for a while now
11:54:44 <dihedral> we have way more servers :-D
11:55:40 * Rhamphoryncus golf claps Eddi
11:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> _somebody_ has to stop this on-topic discussion!
11:56:58 <TrueBrain> I am pondering a bit .. hmm .. hear me out for a sec, say what you think:
11:57:02 <TrueBrain> when you login as user to openttd.org
11:57:09 <TrueBrain> you can grant access to 'clusters'
11:57:19 <TrueBrain> I dont have a fancy name yet, I am sure we can think of one
11:57:23 <TrueBrain> once given that authorization
11:57:37 <TrueBrain> that cluster can track you on its own cluster
11:57:50 <dihedral> who stores the data?
11:58:01 <TrueBrain> that wont change in any of my bla :)
11:58:07 <dihedral> how do you define a 'cluster'
11:58:12 <TrueBrain> a collection of servers
11:58:17 <TrueBrain> one that share a token, basically
11:58:26 <TrueBrain> you as server host request a token at openttd.org
11:58:29 <dihedral> ah - so servers get a token ;-)
11:58:29 <TrueBrain> that is your cluster token
11:59:12 <dihedral> how else should the cluster track a user apart from on its own cluster?
11:59:53 <dihedral> and what (other than terms of service) would stop me from sharing my login details?
12:00:37 <TrueBrain> I dont care if you share your login information
12:00:58 <dihedral> as user a on one server should remain server a
12:01:15 <TrueBrain> that is why the ToS does not allow it; what else can we do
12:01:17 <dihedral> throughout all servers supporting the system
12:01:18 <TrueBrain> I am not a police officer :)
12:01:36 <dihedral> tell the cluster on how many other clusters the user is actively playing ^^
12:02:04 <dihedral> then the cluster may decide wheather or not to accept the connection :-P
12:02:06 <TrueBrain> openttd.org is not in the business of supplying information about users :)
12:02:23 <dihedral> as if the user is active on one other cluster already, i do not trust it's the same user :-P
12:02:23 <TrueBrain> I dont want to be disallowed on cluster A because I am also on cluster B
12:02:25 <TrueBrain> it is silly, and wrong
12:02:40 <dihedral> but that could be up to the cluster admin ^^
12:02:54 * appe kinda forgot about this channel
12:03:07 <dihedral> or - a bot connected to the admin port can address another central place that keeps track of that data
12:03:23 <dihedral> bad appe!! go to your basked!
12:04:13 <TrueBrain> hmm .. another solution would be:
12:04:26 <TrueBrain> you (as client) login to openttd.org, say you want an auth token, and you receive a token
12:04:37 <TrueBrain> instead of your password, you use that token on auth servers
12:04:40 <TrueBrain> no username+password, just that token
12:04:53 <TrueBrain> I wonder if that is easier for clients or not
12:05:03 <dihedral> and set the token as unique id, and the token is valid for 24h
12:05:13 <TrueBrain> I was thinking about a bit longer period of time :P
12:05:17 <TrueBrain> else it will be frustrating
12:05:24 <TrueBrain> although we can of course also fetch the token ingame
12:05:30 <TrueBrain> but that is exactly what I Wanted to aviod ...
12:05:48 <TrueBrain> the reason why I bring this up, as I am wondering:
12:05:54 <TrueBrain> loging in every time you start OpentTD
12:05:57 <TrueBrain> would be rather .. annoying
12:06:03 <TrueBrain> but I also dont want to store the password locally
12:06:06 <TrueBrain> as well .. that is bad
12:06:15 <dihedral> like i said, a console command for the login and use autostart_client.scr
12:06:29 <TrueBrain> and how does that help?
12:06:40 <TrueBrain> it doesnt really solve the issue :P
12:06:51 <dihedral> that when openttd starts the command is executed and does the login for me
12:06:59 <TrueBrain> [13:06] <TrueBrain> but I also dont want to store the password locally
12:07:00 <TrueBrain> [13:06] <TrueBrain> as well .. that is bad
12:07:07 <appe> dihedral: ..is a delightful person!
12:07:30 <TrueBrain> it is why it is an issue. your issue can be solved so much more elegant without that sillyness :D
12:07:47 * appe re-welcomes himself to the channel by putting blunt stuff into planetmaker
12:08:16 <dihedral> someone in need of attention? :-P
12:08:55 <dihedral> why does the client have to tell the server it is authenticated
12:09:07 <dihedral> why can the master server not tell the openttd server?
12:09:38 <TrueBrain> the client will never tell the server it is authenticated
12:09:42 <TrueBrain> we talk about open source here
12:09:45 <TrueBrain> no fucking way that would work
12:09:56 <TrueBrain> but the MS needs to know if a client is authenticated, does it not? :D
12:11:20 <dihedral> login to the website, get token, start openttd, enter token, once token is set MS is informed of the server the client tries to join and pushes an ack to the server
12:11:36 <TrueBrain> yeah, but I think that is too hard on clients
12:11:51 <TrueBrain> exploring options .... how to make this as easy as possible :D
12:12:00 <dihedral> implement the 'login' process into openttd with a username and password promt
12:12:23 <dihedral> instead of username + password, use an s/mime cert :-D
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12:12:41 <TrueBrain> [13:05] <TrueBrain> the reason why I bring this up, as I am wondering:
12:12:42 <TrueBrain> [13:05] <TrueBrain> loging in every time you start OpentTD
12:12:44 <TrueBrain> [13:05] <TrueBrain> would be rather .. annoying
12:12:45 <TrueBrain> damn, you are slow today
12:13:14 <dihedral> so you can think of further options, other than openttd website login and ingame login?
12:13:39 <TrueBrain> well, store such gained token on the client for a period of time
12:13:47 <dihedral> they already have to enter the password of a server or of their company or even both, so further login details would not hurt
12:14:03 <TrueBrain> there you have a point
12:14:09 <TrueBrain> and my end-goal is to avoid all those passwords
12:14:13 <dihedral> if you make it ingame - the token counts as long as the session
12:14:18 <TrueBrain> and replace it with: you are authenticated, so you have access to A B C and D
12:14:38 <dihedral> your nick is the username, you are promted for one password
12:14:47 <TrueBrain> yeah, I guess that works
12:14:52 <dihedral> it is up to the server to move you into your company
12:15:00 <TrueBrain> you can either click Login, or join an auth server
12:15:11 <TrueBrain> both popup the password dialog
12:15:21 <TrueBrain> and only once for the runtime of your client
12:15:28 <TrueBrain> and maybe an invalidation every 24h or something
12:15:53 <dihedral> invalidate once the game is closed
12:16:08 <TrueBrain> then the server, by the means of a packet to admin port, receives information about the connecting user in terms of: username, validated
12:16:09 <dihedral> that already is good, else you have to enter the password on each connect
12:16:27 <dihedral> by means of the admin port?
12:16:49 <dihedral> the admin port is limited to 16 connections and is password protected
12:17:19 <TrueBrain> I think you dont talk the same language :D
12:17:26 <TrueBrain> what I mean is: when a client connects
12:17:29 <TrueBrain> it goes through the auth
12:17:38 <TrueBrain> then the adminport in the end receives a packet with the information about the auth
12:17:51 <TrueBrain> as it is the only part of OpentTD that cares basically
12:20:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Doh. Too much slack and my timetabling system "fails". It only skips a departure window if you were late enough to hit the next window, but it's also possible to have all your vehicles waiting at one stop while arriving late at all the others just quick enough to not trigger the skipping behaviour.
12:20:13 <dihedral> i still do not get why it must be to the admin port... i must be missing something
12:20:30 <TrueBrain> dihedral: yes, you are
12:20:34 <TrueBrain> as the word "must" is misplaced
12:20:45 <TrueBrain> what is the part of OpenTTD that cares about authentication yes/no?
12:20:50 <TrueBrain> what is the part that makes decisions on it?
12:20:55 <TrueBrain> the C++ part? Hell no
12:21:06 <TrueBrain> it is, indeed, the admin port :P
12:21:19 <TrueBrain> does it click now? :D
12:21:29 <dihedral> if you accept or deny a client based on it's authentication of course it's not just the admin port
12:21:47 <dihedral> if it is the admin port, the client connected already
12:23:27 <dihedral> any communication from the MS should be next to all other communication with the MS
12:23:29 <TrueBrain> for the webpart we can use other techniques .. like OAuth I guess
12:23:36 <TrueBrain> dihedral: ffs, read what I wrote :P
12:23:39 <TrueBrain> you really still dont get it :)
12:24:00 <dihedral> nope - then express yourself more clearly ;-)
12:24:08 <TrueBrain> [13:16] <TrueBrain> then the server, by the means of a packet to admin port, receives information about the connecting user in terms of: username, validated
12:24:18 <TrueBrain> the server receives information about the connecting user
12:24:28 <TrueBrain> how does it process it? Well, it sends a packet
12:24:33 <TrueBrain> you know, information
12:25:02 <dihedral> do we have a translator in this channel?
12:25:13 <TrueBrain> you do realise I have @kick access, right? :)
12:25:33 <dihedral> needing a kick command just because someone does not get what you are trying to say is sad ;-)
12:25:51 <TrueBrain> nah; I need the kick command because someone is pulling my leg by acting like he doesnt understand :P
12:28:05 <TrueBrain> that means absolutely nothing Xaroth, as you are most likely wrong :D
12:28:13 <dihedral> i offer time to code the network related parts ;-)
12:29:20 <TrueBrain> anyway, now we established how it should work, from client and admin side
12:29:51 <TrueBrain> code-wise it is very easy: make the login button, send packet to MSU in form of: gettoken(username, md5(salted-password))
12:29:54 <TrueBrain> receive a token back
12:30:05 <TrueBrain> when you join server which has auth, send token to MSU + server token
12:30:14 <TrueBrain> server queries MSU with username + server token
12:30:18 <MNIM> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned once already, but it would be nice to be able to use multiple town name GRFs at once.
12:30:19 <TrueBrain> that part is all easy
12:30:23 <TrueBrain> changing the MSU, that is a bitch ..
12:31:16 <dihedral> is the MSU still in C?
12:31:43 <dihedral> would it make sense to port it to python?
12:32:08 <TrueBrain> its queried so many times
12:32:32 <TrueBrain> then again, we once already made a draft of a new MSU, to reduce the load on all sides
12:32:43 <TrueBrain> but nobody replied on the topic Rb created about it, so he cosnidered nobody was interested :D
12:32:56 <TrueBrain> people should motivate the developers more by cheerful comments!!
12:33:07 <TrueBrain> not the endless bitching: WHY DOESN OPENTTD USE MULTICORES
12:33:15 <dihedral> i did not read that thread - i did not even see it
12:34:33 <TrueBrain> basically, it makes the MSU more useful, by allowing to send queries to it, and receive more server information than the IP:port
12:34:41 <TrueBrain> reducing the endless UDPs you send out when you hit: Find Server, atm :P
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12:36:14 <dihedral> would increase traffic a bit ;-)
12:36:32 <TrueBrain> but it does allow us to grow bigger
12:36:48 <TrueBrain> already some clients cant query all servers
12:36:52 <TrueBrain> because they have a tarded router :P
12:44:18 <Rhamphoryncus> TrueBrain: openttd does too use multicores! That's where all the "thread spawned; thread exited" spam in gdb is from ;)
12:44:30 <Rhamphoryncus> (autosaving uses a background thread.)
12:44:54 <TrueBrain> thank you dihedral for saying what I am thinking
12:45:22 <Xaroth> but you could make a SOAP api for the MSU if it was in python :o
12:45:22 <dihedral> the core of the game is not threaded
12:45:52 <TrueBrain> it is also funny that he is explaining me where threading is used :P
12:45:57 <dihedral> Xaroth, by the sound of it, python is not gonna be fast enough
12:45:57 <TrueBrain> well, he forgets a few
12:46:18 <Xaroth> dihedral: obvious troll was not obvious enough?
12:46:20 <Rhamphoryncus> I know. It was a stupid pedantic response to an irrelevant offhand comment you made. That's why it's funny.
12:46:38 <Xaroth> I should have mentioned XML or something
12:46:41 <Xaroth> to make it more obvious
12:47:04 <dihedral> me? or one of the others :-P
12:47:18 <TrueBrain> like swearing in the church
12:47:23 <dihedral> nah - i am just quoting the 'movie' java4ever
12:47:39 <dihedral> from the makers of javatar
12:48:20 <dihedral> with lenny linux and monalisa harddrive ^^
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12:56:18 <dihedral> Rubidium, by the way - any thoughts regarding fs4990? or no time so yet
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14:28:44 <Rhamphoryncus> __ln__: wow, that's pretty horrible
14:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds very wrong...
14:45:32 <krinn> i have a problem with my ai that let the VM crash, and openttd then segfault too, any hint/tips to help @ debug that, the crash log is not really of help
14:46:17 <TrueBrain> which OS, which OpenTTD version?
14:46:54 <TrueBrain> can you try with 1.1.5?
14:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> also, logs, savegame, AI, way to reproduce
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14:47:47 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, i have 0 doubt it's my AI, the only problem is that openttd crash because of the VM collapse, i'll try 1.1.5
14:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: an ai crash may never cause an openttd crash, as thus that is a bug in openttd
14:49:06 <krinn> the AI doesn't really crash, but the i think the AI (uninitialized variiable or something) let the VM crash and openttd collapse then
14:49:36 <TrueBrain> I wonder how a collapse looks like :D
14:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i just listed the required information for a dev to be able to look at it
14:49:47 <TrueBrain> anyway, do you have the crash.log?
14:49:53 <krinn> i use the console, and last thing i see in it are simple message from the AI, the AI doesn't stopped by itself
14:50:15 <krinn> and i can produce as many as i wish
14:50:56 <TrueBrain> well, I am not really interested if you have one; I am more interested what is in it
14:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> "can you tell me the time please?" "yes."
14:51:49 <TrueBrain> yeah .. polite ways of asking are often shut down with a flamethrower :P
14:51:56 <krinn> let me check if i can send it to you there (but i think this comp is behind my firewall)
14:51:59 <TrueBrain> I often wonder why we try to be polite; we should be rude and just ask what we want to know :D
14:52:07 <TrueBrain> krinn: just put it on a pastebin
14:52:15 <TrueBrain> or otherwise you can do this:
14:52:21 <TrueBrain> 1) update to 1.1.5, see if the problems happens
14:52:47 <TrueBrain> attach your AI, a savegame and CLEAR INSTRUCTION to reproduce
14:53:18 <krinn> that's the problem, clear instruction to reproduce is just letting it run with it and wait
14:54:03 <TrueBrain> 0xffffe400 <- awesome location to call
14:54:10 <TrueBrain> how is that a problem?
14:54:14 <TrueBrain> that sounds like a very good method
14:54:25 <TrueBrain> so yeah, please do make a bug report, as this needs a debugger attached to diagnose
14:54:46 <TrueBrain> one of the more rare cases Windows is better: upon crashes :D
14:54:56 <dihedral> at least he knows pastebin ;-)
14:54:59 <TrueBrain> when we can reproduce it, we can fix it :)
14:55:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you sound awfully confident :p
14:55:29 <TrueBrain> it crashes in a valuator .. meh :)
14:55:43 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: emperical evidence :)
14:56:13 <krinn> ah nice tips for the valuator crash
14:56:35 <TrueBrain> but please do make a bug report, as we should fix this in OpenTTD :)
14:56:49 <TrueBrain> (assuming the 1.2 tree hasnt already, but lets assume for a sec it hasnt :))
14:57:59 <TrueBrain> a crashing OpenTTD is an unhappy OpenTTD :D
14:58:40 <krinn> and i'm not really happy my AI does that
14:59:02 <TrueBrain> AI-wise: it seems you do a Valuate on an AIList, and this is breaking somehow .. if I have to guess, I think you call a Squirrel-valuator
14:59:09 <TrueBrain> so that might give you some insight where your problem is in the AI
14:59:28 <TrueBrain> I have no way of telling you atm if your code is valid and there is just a bug, or that you do something that is invalid, and we should just kill off your script :)
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15:00:30 <krinn> yep, but i have very few valuators like that
15:01:10 <krinn> hence the nice tips to point this, i might find what is doing that and a fix to avoid it
15:01:34 <TrueBrain> if you find it, make sure to attach that to the bug report; might make our life easier :D
15:02:32 <krinn> sure, it would be easier to find if the VM stop the AI and produce an error instead of the crash :)
15:02:49 <TrueBrain> the ultimate goal ;)
15:03:18 <TrueBrain> lucky enough for us it is relative rare for the AI to crash OpenTTD, unlucky for you as you found an exception :D
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15:04:56 <krinn> ask for more files, details or anything need
15:05:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: procedural sprite generator :)
15:10:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: -- view is easy, the other views are interesting, with overlapping and stuff :)
15:10:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: limited use cases
15:10:25 <andythenorth> trailers only at this stage
15:10:47 <andythenorth> although I think masks can be used to comp details
15:11:15 <andythenorth> pretty certain you could do this for passenger carriages and freight cars
15:11:23 <andythenorth> not locomotives, no gain
15:11:39 <andythenorth> could also be used to generate primitives, which are then detailed by hand
15:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, it would be interesting to have better "generic" placeholder graphics instead of our green boxes
15:13:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you finished 'holiday' yet?
15:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like you feed it an axle scheme and a colour and it generates a steam/diesel/electric engine
15:14:05 <andythenorth> you feed it 'scaffolds' with magic colours imho
15:14:20 <andythenorth> as those are easier to place accurately, rather than feeding it a big 2 dimensional array
15:14:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, we already have the green template boxes
15:14:49 <andythenorth> each magic colour maps to a sequence of tuples with (x ,y, colour)
15:14:59 <andythenorth> x and y are offsets from current pixel
15:15:19 <andythenorth> drawing will be in scan order from top left
15:15:34 <andythenorth> so there are possible edge cases for overlapping being problematic
15:16:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: let me know if you want to play with it - the code is trivial :)
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16:06:08 <Belugas> i guess i'm getting old. The company decided to change our screens from 20" to 24". I refused, did not like the change
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16:06:25 <Belugas> Finally, i reluctantly accepted.
16:06:58 <Belugas> Now, I have two freaking large screens taking an immense space on my desk.
16:11:44 <theholyduck> Belugas, well are they 24" higher res?
16:11:48 <theholyduck> and if so, significantly?
16:12:08 <theholyduck> Belugas, i' dont like using widescreens at all
16:12:13 <theholyduck> i run 3 19" 5:4's
16:12:48 <Belugas> yup they are. from 1024xsomething to 1920x1080
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16:13:07 <Belugas> for debugging, it's quite a charm, i have to admit
16:13:16 <theholyduck> Belugas, i would personally have switched to small monitors with high res
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16:13:34 <theholyduck> i mean, my next monitor upgrade is probably the 21.5" ultrasharps
16:19:11 <Belugas> my glasses would not appreciate... too small for comfort, I have to admit
16:19:59 <Belugas> coffee time. too soon for lunch, even if my stomac says otherwise :(
16:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> modern screens somewhat violate moore's law...
16:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> resolutions practically stopped going up some 10 years ago
16:34:22 <Belugas> like CPUs speed, i'd say :)
16:35:59 <SpComb> everyone got stuck at 1080p video resolutions
16:36:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, they increase the number of cores instead
16:40:46 <Belugas> does it run faster? it helps, but it's not significant enough, i'd say
16:41:28 <Belugas> note that transformer prime, with 4 cores, is incredibly faster than the other tablets with only two
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17:36:03 <supermop> has anyone been watching ths guy who made the patch for coupling?
17:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "moore's law" actually says "the number of transistors in a chip doubles every 1.5 years" [or similar]
17:37:05 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: he did not actually post a patch, or?
17:37:34 <supermop> not sure what's going on there
17:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause> <cynical>and even if he did, it would probably fail all sanity checks on code quality</cynical>
17:40:38 <supermop> still looks like fun though
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17:49:23 <supermop> would be fun to have locomotives run around the train at end of line too
17:52:20 <__ln__> yeah, the teleporting locomotive looks bad in that context
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17:56:13 <appe> i didnt know that was possible in ott
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18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23955 /trunk/src/lang/ (arabic_egypt.txt french.txt lithuanian.txt):
18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 37 changes by kasakg
18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 14 changes by OliTTD, glx
18:45:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 34 changes by Stabilitronas
18:50:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23956 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): -Fix (r23949): Fix wrong position argument in translated timetable strings.
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19:10:14 * andythenorth procedurally generates a greeting
19:11:17 * andythenorth is having some design headaches with pixel genrator
19:11:31 <andythenorth> the code isn't hard, the human interface needs a bit of thought
19:12:21 <andythenorth> as nobody has a fricking clue what I'm doing yet, I probably have to figure it out for myself :o :P
19:18:26 <Alberth> you can also explain what you've done, and ask for advice :)
19:19:18 <Elukka> that link doesn't fit in, it makes sense :P
19:21:11 <Elukka> andythenorth: what's pixel generator?
19:21:17 <Elukka> does it make pixels so i don't have to
19:21:59 <Alberth> it mostly colours pixels, I think
19:27:21 <Alberth> andythenorth: working on mnml? (meta newgrf meta language)
19:28:11 <andythenorth> meta nml toolset
19:50:36 <andythenorth> that's about 10 mins work
19:50:43 <andythenorth> wouldn't take a lot more to make it basically sound
19:53:31 <Eddi|zuHause> might just be me, but the proportions look off...
19:54:18 <andythenorth> they rely entirely on the scaffold that's drawn with magic colour
19:54:53 <andythenorth> this is halfway between drawing and pure procedures
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20:13:07 <andythenorth> so many possibilities
20:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> oh what have i done... i taught andythenorth the value of generators :p
20:17:19 <Terkhen> you did not think about the consequences? :)
20:18:37 <Alberth> wait until he finds out about generators that generate generators :D
20:25:04 * andythenorth is not new to generators
20:25:25 <andythenorth> like most people who tinker with web apps andythenorth has written an 'auto-magical form generator'
20:25:33 <andythenorth> followed by learning why they mostly fail :P
20:26:15 * andythenorth has also written lots of game code that generates levels, baddies, power ups etc :)
20:26:42 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: does CETS include NG?
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20:34:10 <Elukka> that is a weird locomotive
20:34:16 <Elukka> i believe it technically does but nothing is drawn
20:34:52 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: i still have naggling concerns about the CETS palette being too muted in comparison to the rest of the game
20:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but railtype support is incomplete
20:35:41 <andythenorth> that one looks more like HEQS trams anyway if I judge size correctly
20:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i believe the saxon IV K is already added to the core set
20:43:33 <Elukka> heh, i didn't realize ng stuff was drawn already
20:44:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23957 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#4990]: allow sending chat to pre-active clients as the clients start accepting once they send 'map ok' to the server, which is the same moment we change their status to pre-active
20:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that's purely oberhümer's fault :p
20:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> he did it "just because"...
20:45:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23958 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: don't allow chat messages from pre-active clients. As they haven't got the savegame yet, they won't have the interface to send them either (dihedral)
20:45:49 <Elukka> hey, eddi, if i have some minor changes to a sprite can i just throw it into the repository somehow
20:46:28 <Rubidium> Elukka: just start drawing 32bpp EZ sprites. Thenk you have way more colours to play with (and pixels)
20:47:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: you can post them to the tracker
20:47:39 <Elukka> i'd do 32bpp but EZ would wait until there's at least a good amount of normal zoom level sprites done
20:47:46 <andythenorth> 32bpp sprite generator :P
20:48:19 <andythenorth> I could encode the pixel sequences in dict: (tuples)
20:48:33 <andythenorth> or I could draw them in another png and then have the generator read them
20:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> §somebody wanted to provide a script for automatic 32bpp->8bpp conversion
20:49:01 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how I'd handle non-vertical sequences if they were drawn in a png
20:49:14 <andythenorth> I'd need some kind of control colour to say 'sequence starts here'
20:51:05 <andythenorth> or I could just code them in...code
20:52:11 <andythenorth> dunno about lighting either
20:52:18 <andythenorth> could just manually encode lighting differences
20:52:38 <andythenorth> or I could detect which angle is being drawn (using x position), then transform all pixels
20:54:47 * andythenorth is favouring manually encoding everything
20:54:52 <andythenorth> magic is untrustworthy
20:55:05 <andythenorth> procedural pixel generator is magic enough
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21:08:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23959 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/run.sh: -Change: make regression less faily when spurious warnings are shown
21:12:46 <andythenorth> __ln__: I think I'm in that video
21:12:51 <andythenorth> not the guy on the bike though
21:13:52 <andythenorth> 8.30 is a bit early for me
21:14:11 <andythenorth> but there is a cyclist crosses the frame near the end, identical bike, bag, coat to mine
21:14:24 <andythenorth> and that use to be one of my routes to work
21:14:46 <andythenorth> I have arguments with people at the same roundabout as the cyclist in that story
21:17:01 <__ln__> andythenorth: surveillance recorders' clocks are often off by who knows how many dozens of minutes
21:17:12 <andythenorth> it would need to be about 1hr off
21:17:19 <andythenorth> or on the wrong summer time setting
21:18:17 <__ln__> 1hr wouldn't surprise me at all.
21:19:39 * andythenorth generates a palette
21:19:41 <supermop> you are from bristol?
21:20:01 <andythenorth> spiritual home of TTD
21:20:10 <supermop> always pictured you as a northerner
21:20:20 <supermop> thought tt was from up north
21:20:33 <andythenorth> chris sawyer and simon foster are from up north
21:20:43 <andythenorth> microprose was based in frampton cotterel
21:20:51 <andythenorth> the guy who fixed my windows used to work there
21:22:29 <Eddi|zuHause> a propos north... what's this talk about scottish independence?
21:22:38 <andythenorth> chipping sodbury / frampton cotterel /s
21:22:44 * andythenorth can't comment on that
21:22:53 <andythenorth> working on it professionally
21:23:06 <supermop> i can say that i think it is silly
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21:23:25 <supermop> that from someone with much more scottish blood than english
21:23:44 <supermop> but i dont live there so not my issue to take issue with
21:24:31 * andythenorth has generated a palette
21:24:37 <andythenorth> with numbers and all
21:26:01 <supermop> seeing the word 'micropose' makes the TTO song play in my head
21:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and if scotland declares independence, what happens to northern ireland?
21:26:18 <supermop> its not part of scottland
21:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's something called a ripple or domino effect :p
21:26:58 <supermop> i have a feeling northern irish want to stay in the union more than the other nations would like to see them stay
21:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> how did that happen anyway? what made them split up ireland that way, historically speaking?
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21:30:03 <supermop> the people in the north wanted to stay, those in the south wanted to go
21:30:15 <supermop> north is more protestant than the south is
21:30:43 <supermop> obviously its not quite so black and white, but thats the simple explanation
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21:48:03 <supermop> now you just need a way for python to automate the creation of clever truck names
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21:49:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: that's the wrong palette
21:49:36 <frosch123> also use ttdviewer for such things
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21:53:54 * andythenorth experiments with ttd viewer
21:55:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: how do I get TTDViewer to tell me the palette index for each colour?
21:56:28 <frosch123> isn't there some tooltip?
21:57:52 <frosch123> really? i cannot make it work
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22:00:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: works in nightly, older version doesn't do it
22:00:37 <frosch123> wow, how did i manage to not have an up-to-date version of ttdviwer :o
22:01:00 <frosch123> i did not even had the save button
22:01:40 <andythenorth> TTDViewer palette disagrees with the palette in my image
22:01:52 <andythenorth> the indexes are completely different
22:02:07 <frosch123> you are using the deprecated win palette
22:02:12 <frosch123> everything else uses the dos palette
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22:02:46 <frosch123> also not that ttdviewer hides various colours by default
22:02:54 <frosch123> so, make sure to uncheck the stuff in the menu
22:03:57 <andythenorth> I thought I'd switched to the DOS palette from the ottd repo :o
22:04:07 <andythenorth> I had to switch because nml refuses to compile the windows palette I had previously
22:04:18 <andythenorth> perhaps I switched incorrectly :P
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22:11:07 <andythenorth> wrong palette setting saved in photoshop
22:11:16 * andythenorth probably has lots of wrong images out in the wild :(
22:12:00 <andythenorth> TTDViewer is shiny, but I need a palette with numbers on
22:12:08 <andythenorth> I will be writing them into python a lot :P
22:13:54 <frosch123> i did not see yet any image
22:22:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23960 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix/Change: [NewGRF] Make the properties for always/never refittable cargo types not behave incremental, but reset them on reassignment.
22:30:02 <Sacro> well, don't ever /exec yes
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22:35:13 <Eddi|zuHause> this cover photo of University Physics actually does not load
22:43:19 <Stimrol> hello, Is there a way to enable kN (Tractive Effort) on 1.1.5 server?
22:45:59 <Terkhen> enable advanced settings -> vehicles -> realistic acceleration for the vehicle type you are intested in
22:46:17 <Terkhen> if you mean the console command required for doing that, I don't know :)
22:47:06 <Stimrol> no i can do that, thanks
22:49:40 <Stimrol> This worked, thanks a lot
continue to next day ⏵
