IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-01-31
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00:24:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Just us figments of your imagination
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00:41:59 * Mazur is over there, in a box.
00:47:38 * Rhamphoryncus attempts to decipher the infamous presignal >.>
00:52:09 <whsck> Currently trying to fix a Desync issue and the host used '-ddesync=3',however when I desync no error message is being displayed, whats up with that!? - Shall I still give the save files asked by someone in my bug report?
00:52:24 <Rhamphoryncus> Someone needs to make a priority merge example savegame, then include it with openttd. That way we're not stuck on pictures of incomplete examples
01:17:06 <Rhamphoryncus> It seems as if the pathing signals, rather than going when it can get to the next signal, only go when the signal after that is free
01:20:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Or they wait for the signal right ahead of them to be free, only to take that chance to switch to the other track
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01:44:47 <whsck> Did anyone see my question from earlier? I d/c'd from chat
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01:51:29 <Rhamphoryncus> OMG, I actually got combo signals to work :P
01:51:35 <Rhamphoryncus> whsck: I did see it
01:53:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Took a total of 9 signals to let two tracks swap without blocking either
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02:30:47 <__ln__> heureka, 1+1*2 = 3, not 2
02:53:40 * Rhamphoryncus discovers there's a car replacement screen too, not just engine replacement >.>
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05:59:43 <Rubidium> whsck: with -ddesync the desync logs are written directly to save/autosave/commands-out.log
06:11:56 <whsck> Okay, I'll just add it to my bug report but i think its been closed
06:12:28 <Rubidium> if it's FS#5030, then yes that has been closed
06:13:42 <Rubidium> as it's a duplicate of another bug that has been fixed last thursday
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06:44:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Isn't that always the case? :)
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06:54:59 <whsck> Which report did you say was close 0800?
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07:07:00 <whsck> Was FS#5030 that was closed ~ Requested it to be open though
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07:20:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: Have you looked at my patch?
07:26:10 <Rhamphoryncus> A question for the more experienced players: will selecting slower engines, so that they're all the same speed (and not whatever their wagons allow), produce less congestion?
07:28:12 <Rhamphoryncus> otoh, it'd reduce my station ratings
07:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're crazy enough, you can make a fully timetabled network :)
07:37:04 <Rhamphoryncus> I'd have to make a spreadsheet, pause the game, and apply a start date to every single vehicle
07:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: when autofilling a timetable, record not only the time but also the distance and average speed. then when editing one, recalculate one of the other two to keep it consistent
07:38:04 <Elukka> is there any way to use autofilled timetables without continually micromanaging every train?
07:38:34 <Rhamphoryncus> my plan for a timetable is to calculate a rolling average of the minimum timing, then present it to the user so they can use it when tweaking
07:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: timetables are seriously underdeveloped
07:38:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Elukka: not currently. I'm working on yet another patch.
07:39:18 <Elukka> i'd like something that kept trains (and while we're at it, road vehicles) from all bunching up at one end of the line
07:39:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Yup. Two goals: stop clumping and make it fun
07:39:54 <Elukka> but dealing manually with timetables is a bit much
07:40:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that is possible currently, but quite extensive to set up and may easily break
07:41:46 <Rhamphoryncus> More aspects to my plan are to automatically swap timings when one vehicle arrives before another as well as having an easier way of respacing the vehicles when you add or remove one
07:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: swapping should be easy, since you have an ordered linked list
07:42:44 <Rhamphoryncus> The latter might be part of a broader "route management" window. Have to see how amenable the devs are to my ideas.
07:42:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: conceptually trivial. Turns out navigating the code is the biggest hurdle
07:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the next_shared/prev_shared are in the order of the start dates
07:43:47 <Rhamphoryncus> My previous plan was to make next_shared/prev_shared cyclic, but that breaks saving/loading which accesses them directly (rather than through NextShared/PreviousShared
07:44:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Next issue I've found is timetable_start seems to have nothing to do with maintaining the timing. Rather, lateness_counter does it.
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07:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: you should be able to achieve that without changing next_shared
07:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> just make NextShared return the first item if it's the last
07:45:07 <Rhamphoryncus> That'd break everything else that uses it :)
07:45:29 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm just going to embed that logic in the function that does the swapping. Not too much trouble really.
07:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> cyclic links are non-trivially to handle, if you have existing code ;)
07:46:53 <Rhamphoryncus> The real problem atm is lateness_counter. I haven't gotten my head around what exact logic to apply to it.
07:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if (arrive at first station) lateness_counter += other_start_date-my_start_date;
07:48:44 <Rhamphoryncus> That's the end result
07:48:55 <Rhamphoryncus> But first I need to figure out if I am ahead of them :)
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07:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. yeah. there's a formula for that, but it's really too early :)
07:50:57 <Rhamphoryncus> two cases to handle: previous vehicle is heading to my station and previous vehicle is loading at the previous station. (Any further back and I would have swapped when I arrived at the previous station.)
07:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i would only handle this if it already left the previous station
07:54:12 <Rhamphoryncus> I don't think that's right but I can't tell you why ;)
07:54:47 <Rhamphoryncus> However, I should definitely do heading to my station first, worry about the other case later.
07:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: imho this swapping check should be run every time a vehicle arrives at the first station
07:56:08 <Rhamphoryncus> afaik there is no first station once the schedule is going
07:56:21 <Rhamphoryncus> And that would be much less responsive if a vehicle breaks down and is overtaken by another
07:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: but that might make vehicles use timetable-windows when it's not supposed to
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08:14:55 * andythenorth had dreams of trees
08:17:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: trees are new for me. Is it basically a directed link graph, starting at a single node and arriving at [result] ?
08:17:22 <Rhamphoryncus> were they growing out of your ear?
08:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, trees are directed graphs.
08:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there are also undirected trees
08:18:49 <andythenorth> can brances re-converge in your parse tree?
08:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's not a tree anymore
08:19:12 <andythenorth> in that case I have an optimisation for you
08:19:26 <andythenorth> compile-time visualiser, drawing actual trees in ascii to std-out
08:19:34 <andythenorth> definitely will make CETS more awesome
08:19:42 <Rhamphoryncus> ... optimization?
08:20:02 <andythenorth> it will draw a forest while you wait for CETS to compile
08:20:26 <andythenorth> it's a technique from 80s games to cover slow things
08:20:31 <andythenorth> like waiting for tapes to load ;)
08:21:02 <andythenorth> instead of making x faster, adjust people's perception that x is slow :)
08:21:12 <andythenorth> also it's pointless eye candy, therefore worth doing
08:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but since it's nmlc that is slow, i would need t start that in a separate thread
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08:22:10 <andythenorth> maybe run two python processes, parsing the same input, with different output?
08:22:31 <andythenorth> I think it's important...
08:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> did you get it to run, actually?
08:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and did you try the modification to read.py?
08:23:28 <andythenorth> entry[u"values"] = entry # self-reference
08:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you remove that line?
08:24:43 <andythenorth> I suspect the key that is an empty string personally
08:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if "it works", then you should get a line like "function requires X arguments, Y given"
08:25:10 <andythenorth> I still have TypeError: unique() keywords must be strings
08:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but even an empty string is a string
08:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea where the empty string comes from, though
08:28:01 <andythenorth> I tested if len(name) > 0
08:28:04 <andythenorth> makes no difference
08:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> can you try editing src/table/CETS_Tracking_Table.tsv, in the second line, after "Refit Cost" thre's an empty space, write something there between the two tabs
08:30:15 <andythenorth> I was attempting to add a try: except: to raise the key
08:31:32 <Rhamphoryncus> feature request: if one side of a presignal is going to behave like a normal signal (because there's no exits for it to check), draw that side as a normal signal
08:31:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ok, I added 'foo', I know get
08:31:57 <andythenorth> UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf8' codec can't decode bytes in position 11-13: invalid data
08:32:23 <andythenorth> let me check excel didn't introduce that though
08:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like something you introduced on saving
08:33:27 <andythenorth> yup, that was excel
08:33:34 <Eddi|zuHause> change files.py to say "windows-1252"
08:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> on the tracking table
08:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause> or just use a normal editor
08:36:53 <andythenorth> I used a normal editor
08:37:04 <andythenorth> still fails on key(s)
08:37:11 * andythenorth is doing horrible print statements
08:37:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this is bizarre...
08:38:13 <andythenorth> if I call key = str(key)
08:38:31 <andythenorth> I get KeyError: "(u'DR', u'212')"
08:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and that's unrelated to the error
08:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the error is during the "**" processing
08:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> which means the dict is passed as keyword-args
08:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but can you try this:
08:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause> in read.py, in the tables.titles = ... line
08:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> write "map(str, ...)"
08:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and the following for-line as well
08:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> ... is "file.next().split()" stuff
08:42:37 <andythenorth> ? tables.titles = file.next().strip('\n').split('\t') # second line contains column titles
08:43:03 <andythenorth> wrap the rhs in map(
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08:43:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and do the same in the next line
08:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> enumerate(map(str, ...))
08:47:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Hum, 87% of my trains can travel at 135 km/h. The remaining 13% travel at 104 or 120 km/h. Methods I need to segregate them.
08:47:57 * andythenorth thinks it would be much nicer to watch CETS compile if it drew trees
08:48:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so did that work?
08:48:26 <andythenorth> I will know when nmlc has finished :P
08:48:31 <andythenorth> should I make some tea while I wait?
08:48:45 <Eddi|zuHause> takes about 3 minutes here
08:49:01 <andythenorth> it's printing lots of length warnings :)
08:49:05 <andythenorth> that prop just changed
08:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, lots of vehicles have missing stats in the table
08:49:56 <andythenorth> it's the deprecation warning - 'shorten_vehicle' changed to 'length'
08:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but the python did not throw any errors anymore?
08:50:14 <andythenorth> python cat says lol
08:50:23 <andythenorth> and it finished compiling
08:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: ah, some updated nml feature
08:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that should be an easy fix, but i'm not really bothered right now
08:51:36 <andythenorth> well that was exciting
08:51:45 <andythenorth> easily the most complex python I've ever tried to read
08:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: read the output in files like src/pruss/EG531.pnml
08:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause> or 538? don't remember the number
08:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> one of those, anyway
08:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so... i figure your python has problem with unicode-strings in kwargs
08:54:31 <andythenorth> unicode in python often leads to sadness
08:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that should very clearly be a mac-python bug
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09:16:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Is it possible to change the limit on airports per town?
09:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> enable noise control
09:18:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Does that increase it or reduce it?
09:19:00 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm playing with very few towns so this airport isn't near the town, but still triggers the limit
09:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people say that this unicode thing should be working in 2.7 but not on 2.6 and earlier
09:20:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: in general, it reduces for smaller towns, and may increase for bigger towns
09:26:21 <MNIM> ugh. You know what I really hate?
09:26:51 <MNIM> when you've built a whole network, and then you find out that passenger cars ain't working :S
09:27:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Didn't work. Had to move over 9 tiles in one axis. Kinda odd.
09:27:40 <Rhamphoryncus> MNIM: how do passenger cars not work?
09:28:13 <MNIM> most likely caused by changing GRFs in the scenario.
09:28:14 <Rhamphoryncus> ugh. Crashed plane, 2.5 million liters of backlogged oil gone :/
09:31:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: pro tip: run an advertising campaign to get the rating up
09:31:50 <Rhamphoryncus> oh yeah, thanks
09:32:26 <Rhamphoryncus> artificial deflation meet artificial inflation! :)
09:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> note that this only works near the town center
09:37:34 <Rhamphoryncus> It's not really, but I'm doing it anyway
09:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was 15 tiles for small and 25 tiles for large advertising campaign
09:43:00 <Rhamphoryncus> Either way I'm back up to 85%
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10:26:39 <whsck> Hi, I had a bug report that was closed, while I was gathering the information required, Just wandering how to get it open again?
10:30:12 <blathijs> whsck: What's the bug number?
10:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> whsck: have you tried updating to the latest nightly instead?
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10:57:37 <DDR> Pardon, but can anyone help me set up a game which starts in the 1700s?
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10:58:56 <DDR> Horse-and-buggies seem to have disappeared.
10:58:58 <TinoDidriksen> You mean, before locomotives were invented?
11:00:15 <DDR> I'd like to start out with some horses, a couple AI players, and then after a while start up with the trains. 'course, I'd like to have ships as well, but I'd be happy if I could buy *anything* way back when.
11:02:21 <Rhamphoryncus> DDR: you need the right newgrf for that
11:02:52 <DDR> I don't know it's name. :(
11:03:43 <Rhamphoryncus> I don't remember, but right now I'm running with tropic refurbishment, egrvts, HEQS, and aviators. You should download them all and try them one by one in a quick one-off to see if it works
11:03:45 <TinoDidriksen> So, wagonways and wooden railroads? Neat.
11:03:57 <Rhamphoryncus> but I'd start with HEQS and egrvts ;)
11:04:11 <andythenorth> HEQS has nothing until about 1870 btw
11:04:18 <DDR> I tried with Tropic Refurbishment, at least, but I haven't tried those others.
11:04:32 <DDR> I might be able to live with 1870.
11:04:58 <Rhamphoryncus> TinoDidriksen: sort of. There's horse-drawn trams, but it the tracks aren't any different
11:05:11 <Rhamphoryncus> then it's egrvts. andythenorth *might* know something about HEQS, hehe
11:05:50 <Rhamphoryncus> I've done some games starting at 1900 and I'm pretty sure I've seen stuff available from 1700
11:05:50 <Rubidium> whsck: from the savegame I was able to determine what the cause of the desync was, and the savegame+command log you've given after that confirms that I was right. The cause of the desync is the same as FS#5007, so I closed FS#5030 as duplicate.
11:06:17 <DDR> If I ever try my hand at modding OpenTTD, which I might now due to certain developments, I'll try making a Year-0 grf.
11:06:52 <DDR> It'll probably take a few months to play through a whole game, but eyyy, could be good as a one-off.
11:06:55 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: I've seen it, but that's about it
11:07:07 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: alright
11:07:29 <DDR> One of the things I'll have to do is figure out some way to eliminate unupkept road and whatnot.
11:09:25 <DDR> Or transfer ownership to the company which uses it most.
11:09:53 <DDR> Cities and industries should be more mobile.
11:10:03 <DDR> Climate change would be nice. Hm.
11:10:16 <DDR> Bonus points if I can relate it to the amount of engines used. :P
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11:16:34 <whsck> How do I find the bug report of FS#5007
11:18:34 <Rubidium> whsck: that bug is already fixed, but there's a search box in the top right of the bug tracker
11:18:48 <whsck> Just wandering so I know how to fix it maybe?~
11:18:49 <Rubidium> and it's linked from FS#5030's close message
11:19:01 <Rubidium> whsck: update openttd is the only real solution
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11:21:20 <Rubidium> as fixing it only server side will make it even more likely that people desync
11:35:25 <peter1138> i want a plush pintsize
11:48:15 <andythenorth> I want a jabberwocky
11:48:18 <andythenorth> and a ninky nonk
11:49:05 <Elukka> a python is very achievable
11:50:41 <Elukka> look at this thing. awwww...
11:50:53 <Elukka> think it's a boa though if memory serves
11:51:03 <andythenorth> surprisingly warm
11:52:07 <Elukka> well, they're about as warm as the environment...
11:55:36 <Elukka> the kitchen table is pretty much his turf now
11:55:39 <Elukka> the best chillin' place
11:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: people say they successfully executed code like mine on python 2.6.7, but some 2.6 even on linux have been seen affected by the problem
11:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: in general i'd advise you to update python anyway, but i've commited the str() workaround to CETS
11:56:40 <andythenorth> updating python is possible
11:56:45 <andythenorth> but not now - stuff sometimes breaks
11:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you update to a later 2.6.bugfix release should not affect program's behaviours
11:59:28 <whsck> Am I not up to date with Open TTD then? Is that why i'm desyncing?
12:02:04 <Rhamphoryncus> whsck: He said it's a bug that was fixed last week. So yes, the version you have has the bug, but everybody else you're playing with might have it too; they just didn't trigger it.
12:04:38 <whsck> So we'll have to download the stable version or is there a patch for 1.2.0-beta3?
12:05:24 <planetmaker> whsck, the current stable is older than the testing release of 1.2.0-beta3
12:05:35 <planetmaker> Only nightly versions are newer. And only those are patched
12:05:49 <Elukka> you have to download a nightly
12:06:07 <planetmaker> Thus either you play with a nightly (all of you will have to get the same version) or you'll have to wait for 1.2.0-beta4
12:06:17 <whsck> Where can I download a nightly?
12:06:33 <planetmaker> Look at the website
12:11:43 <V453000> the CETS is seriously intending to have 600+ engines? :D
12:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> not at the same time, if you make your parameter selection careful :)
12:13:16 <V453000> still wondering who is going to draw that many :D
12:13:24 <Elu> yyeaaaaah that's a bit of an issue
12:13:54 <V453000> oh and it is even in the 12? angles :D
12:14:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 12 for symmetric, 24 for asymmetric
12:15:52 <Mazur> Or make it once in 3D and capture 12/24 angles of view.
12:16:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you need to write a pixel generator :P
12:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's difficult enough to mend my mental images into code, but into pixels i pretty much always failed...
12:19:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the closest i got to drawing sensible vehicles is the green template boxes :)
12:19:56 <andythenorth> if you can visualise the output of that generator in your head....you might surprise yourself
12:20:04 <andythenorth> zephryis wrote procedural house generator
12:20:31 <andythenorth> I wonder if you could generate the intermediate angles you require
12:20:36 <andythenorth> from the / or - views
12:20:49 <andythenorth> they won't be seen that frequently, they could bear being lower-quality
12:21:20 <andythenorth> it's probably 'just' a matrix transform
12:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that has all kinds of issues with antialiasing and hinting
12:21:49 <andythenorth> don't anti-alias
12:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but oberhümer does something like that
12:22:25 <andythenorth> or draw the set as flat texture maps and UV map them onto boxes
12:22:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can't antialias
12:22:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but that may make some relevant pixels disappear
12:22:58 <andythenorth> manual cleanup after the fact
12:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> like the pantograph of the EG511
12:25:18 <Elukka> i still haven't managed a method of making the intermediate views with anything beyond just drawing them
12:27:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: while you're here: recolouring the closed wagon to something white-ish for the refrigerated wagon?
12:27:39 <Elukka> i should also finish the stake wagon
12:27:44 <Elukka> and do all the rest of them...
12:29:02 <Elukka> this is what happens when you spend too much time staring at a sprite of a certain wagon...
12:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and then we need slightly shorter versions for the earlier generation
12:34:16 <Eddi|zuHause> and slightly longer versions for the later generation
12:34:37 <Elukka> that's going to take some fiddling
12:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll make you a table with the exact lengths
12:35:21 <Elukka> i think the longer ones should be a different sprite altogether, at least i can't think of any later wagons with the same shape
12:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what you currently draw are the 1910-ish versions, there's mostly similar 1870-ish and 1930-ish versions
12:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the 1950-ish DB versions may need something new
12:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and then there are 1970-ish versions that are slightly faster, but mostly look the same
12:37:49 <andythenorth> you should do this:
12:37:56 <andythenorth> - make a wagon LH end
12:38:00 <andythenorth> - make a wagon RH end
12:38:08 <andythenorth> - make 4px intermediate sections
12:38:14 <andythenorth> - make 4px door sections
12:38:19 <andythenorth> same for coaches
12:38:30 <andythenorth> you do all angles for the components then just build
12:39:02 <andythenorth> a lot of computational approaches seem to focus on starting from scratch for the whole result, instead of just assembling pre-made modules
12:39:08 <andythenorth> robots are good at putting modules together...
12:39:17 <andythenorth> they're crappy at creative tasks...
12:39:19 <Elukka> well, the current sprite is representative of the G10 and probably a bunch of other models
12:39:24 <Elukka> but don't later wagons usually have round roofs
12:39:35 <andythenorth> that's an optimisation. later :P
12:39:44 <andythenorth> it's about 0.5px different at this scale
12:39:54 <Elukka> plus a brakeman's cab at frame level, and oppeln type has different wheel placement...
12:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> minor details :)
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12:40:17 <andythenorth> make them from components :P
12:40:27 <andythenorth> Most of the trucks and trailers in BANDIT will be done that way
12:40:42 <Elukka> andy, robots are good at putting modules together but i am no good at making robots :P
12:40:45 <andythenorth> but I'm not smart enough to write code to assemble them, so I'll do it in photoshop by hand
12:40:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause is good at making robots
12:41:04 <andythenorth> it's just feeding a recipe to something that composites images
12:42:03 <Elukka> so you just do modular sprite parts and move them around until it looks like a thing
12:52:03 <Elukka> it's a good thing i already have brakeman's cabs on a separate layer so they're easy to copypaste to another wagon
12:52:34 <Elukka> they are a lot of pain for a small detail since they make the wagon asymmetric
12:52:42 <Elukka> possibly that's why i haven't seem them in any other grf before :P
13:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> DBSet has brakers cab at the last wagon
13:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> numbers in parentheses are optional for now
13:10:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the * means this is currently in the set, but wrong length
13:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there may be some oddities in there that need to be ironed out in a review
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14:14:54 <andythenorth> Elukka: anything asymmetric gives you 2x the number of sprites :(
14:15:03 <andythenorth> all RVs and ships are asymmetric :(
14:15:08 <andythenorth> you train people have it easy :P
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16:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the autoreplace button in the depot could show an error message "no suitible autoreplace rule found"
16:18:00 <andythenorth> autoreplace is a bit magical / untrustworthy right now
16:18:09 <andythenorth> took me years to figure out that button btw
16:18:20 <andythenorth> much pressing of it with no result :P
16:41:29 <Rhamphoryncus> I used it once. It's a manual autoreplace.. kinda pointless.
16:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the easiest way to make sure only the vehicles you want to get replaced
16:53:20 <Rhamphoryncus> Grouping them isn't easier?
17:00:41 *** snorre_ has joined #openttd
17:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on the situation
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18:08:36 <xiong> I've long used path signals. Now I'm running chillpack which has a patch to signal bridges (and I suppose, tunnels). But these are block signals. I find trains wait at the previous path signal while blocks are open.
18:09:41 <xiong> I understand why this is so, I guess. The train is waiting to reserve a path to the next path signal, after the bridge entirely. Is that right? If so, how to fix this?
18:19:41 <xiong> Apparently not tunnels. But bridges certainly.
18:26:10 <lugo> xiong: place one block signal in front of and behind any tunnels/bridges which have signals
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18:32:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
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18:34:27 <xiong> Now I'll have to load up that line so the trains follow more closely, see how that goes. Thanks.
18:42:40 <xiong> Yes, that's the solution.
18:45:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23873 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by chenwt0315
18:45:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 71 changes by OliTTD
18:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 65 changes by Parastais
18:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 7 changes by Stabilitronas
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19:17:33 * andythenorth ponders converting FISH to nml
19:24:38 <Alberth> becoming a nml addict ? :)
19:24:58 <andythenorth> nml + templating language of your choice
19:25:16 <andythenorth> mako and genshi looked good
19:26:00 * andythenorth is familiar with chameleon so likes it
19:26:57 <andythenorth> is global_constants a good pattern?
19:27:12 <andythenorth> I added it for BANDIT, then noticed nml has same
19:27:27 <andythenorth> (basically a .py file for global vars and such)
19:27:54 <Alberth> I don't have that many global constants, normally
19:28:16 <Alberth> and normally 0 global vars :p
19:28:34 <andythenorth> it's for stuff like 'list of cargo classes for fast vehicles' etc
19:29:08 <Alberth> constants is fine, and with many or large constants it is a sane method to get them out of the way
19:29:24 * andythenorth is mostly concerned with making it easy for other people to hack on
19:29:38 <andythenorth> if I code BANDIT sanely, anyone can hack truck sets on top of it
19:30:03 <andythenorth> it could literally become a web app to make truck newgrfs
19:30:16 <andythenorth> upload pngs, define properties, compile
19:30:32 <Alberth> we'll get flooded with trucks! :D
19:31:32 <andythenorth> I kind of like ALLCAPS for constants, but that conflates with nml built-ins
19:31:40 <andythenorth> maybe just prefix global_
19:32:52 <andythenorth> pep-8 says CAPS for constants (I think(
19:33:53 <Nite> i always get disconnected from servers on ottd1.5
19:34:18 <Nite> the console says: "your computer took too long to join"
19:34:25 <Alberth> I wrote something FAQ-ish about that :)
19:34:54 <Alberth> server owner needs to think about this, always tricky :(
19:35:57 <Nite> cant find faq on openttd.org ... hmmm
19:37:07 <Alberth> openttd.org -> manual -> FAQ (last entry at the 'gameplay' text part at the top)
19:37:47 <Alberth> so indeed, there is no FAQ at openttd.org :p
19:38:11 <andythenorth> my project has /src where the build script is
19:38:20 <andythenorth> and /sprites/nml where the templates are
19:38:36 <andythenorth> does global_constants.py belong in /src or /sprites/nml ?
19:38:42 <andythenorth> or is this bike-shedding the issue?
19:39:02 <Alberth> yeah, I fail to understand why source code is below 'sprites' too :)
19:39:14 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how to best set this up
19:39:19 <andythenorth> I also have /scripts :P
19:39:24 <andythenorth> but I don't need to use that
19:39:39 <Alberth> but /sprites/nml, I think, as it is part of the project, rather than the generic build script stuff
19:40:01 <Nite> sry but the last entry in gamplay faq is "How to get computer opponents (AIs) in my game?"
19:40:03 <andythenorth> I also have BANDIT_vehicles_config.py where the big dict defining trucks is
19:40:08 <andythenorth> src or sprites/nml for that?
19:40:41 * andythenorth only cares on behalf of others - I'll know anyway
19:40:41 <Alberth> Nite: MP FAQ (multiplayer/network/whatever it is called)
19:41:19 <Alberth> andythenorth: keep all project sources at one place would be my advice
19:41:53 <andythenorth> I could just put everything in /src, then put the single generated nml file into sprites/nml
19:41:58 <andythenorth> which is maybe better?
19:42:00 <Alberth> if you use the layout of our planet builder, that's under sprites/nml afaik
19:42:35 * andythenorth is probably bikeshedding
19:42:45 <Nite> if you mean "People get disconnected while joining, how to fix that?" that doesent help me because i get connected properly
19:42:55 <Nite> then after some time disconnect
19:43:31 <Nite> - did the standard setting of ticks you may lag behing change on 1.5?
19:44:05 * Alberth does not know, I never play MP, so have no idea about those settings
19:44:23 <Nite> - did "max lag time" default changed in 1.5
19:44:41 <Nite> btw: this happens on every server
19:44:57 <Alberth> what part of "does not know" is not understood?
19:45:24 <Nite> i understood you do not know it! alberth
19:46:22 <Alberth> (20:39:11) Nite: the console says: "your computer took too long to join" <-- I don't call that connected, but maybe that's just me?
19:47:21 <Alberth> not sure what else to call it :(
19:47:22 <Nite> look iam connected and can wathc teh game running for less then a minute
19:48:43 <Alberth> so likely, while you downloaded the map, the game moved on, you are trying to upload the other changes, but it takes too long, so you get dropped due to having too much lag
19:49:02 <Alberth> euhm *download even :)
19:50:59 <Nite> the thing is that i never hat this problems before 1.5
19:51:15 <Nite> since 1.5 i cannot connect properly fully or whatever
19:52:29 <Nite> i will look what my stopwatch says
19:54:47 <Nite> ok one and a half minute - then "computer took to long to yoin"
19:57:04 <Nite> i blame it on my connection and the 1.5 version might be just coincidence
19:58:43 <Nite> the one and half minute sems relatively ecact
19:59:09 <Alberth> did you check the changelog to see whether such settings were changed in 1.1.5?
20:00:14 <Alberth> well, computers are very good at giving the same result every time, no matter how often you compute the same thing :p
20:01:11 <Alberth> but I would not surprised at all if all server owners just updated and started the new version without reading/considering the changes
20:02:24 <Nite> afaik computers are not good at anything at all ... no mather
20:03:22 <Nite> changelog says: Make default timeouts for certain network states lower and configurable
20:03:46 <Nite> does it mean the computer network or the virtual rail network ??
20:06:47 <Nite> - is it getting quiet around ottd in general?
20:07:09 <Hirundo> basically, you could shutdown a server from remote by downloading a map infinitely slowly
20:07:30 <Alberth> it quite often quiet here; people are busy playing or doing other stuff
20:08:34 <Nite> but, but i downloaded the map already, superfast, iam connected and playing but only for 1 min 30
20:08:56 <Nite> maybe some bits and bytes dont check that iam connected
20:11:56 <Nite> anyway ... must be my connection, might have hiccups
20:16:28 <andythenorth> Nite: quietness is cyclical
20:16:38 <andythenorth> recently there was a big burst of development
20:16:44 <andythenorth> now lots of people are busy doing...life stuff
20:17:28 * andythenorth monologues here in inverse proportion to writing actual code :P
20:17:43 <andythenorth> although when designing, andythenorth monologues here a lot
20:19:10 <Nite> like getting money buying things
20:20:19 <Nite> well i se it as a sign that i should do something else then play ottd
20:20:45 <Nite> first i will head to a more lively chatroom
20:20:49 <Alberth> most people here don't play much :)
20:21:09 <andythenorth> hmm...there are a few cases where c pre-processor constants are much more elegant than providing same in python
20:21:29 <Nite> i was always on the playerside only in ottd
20:21:44 <andythenorth> using multiple templating methods is confusing though, right?
20:22:02 <Alberth> at least it's "interesting" :)
20:22:41 <Alberth> but yeah, it does not seem very useful to me to have several templating mechanisms
20:23:02 <Nite> i consider taking my socond big transporttycoon pause
20:23:24 <Nite> the first one lasted over a decade
20:48:01 <frosch123> someone knows when citydomination v6 spawns goals?
21:02:28 *** Hirundo has joined #openttd
21:03:28 <frosch123> where is zuu when you need him :)
21:05:26 <frosch123> i believe citydomination fails in singleplayer
21:05:52 <frosch123> the scripts only notices companies if they are created newly. but in singleplayer the playercompany is started before the gs
21:05:58 <frosch123> so only ais get goals :s
21:10:54 <andythenorth> global constants are much easier in cpp than python
21:13:46 * Hirundo expects a counter-rant on how cpp's everything-in-one-namespace can lead to subtle bugs
21:15:06 * andythenorth wonders whether to apply duct tape principle
21:15:15 <andythenorth> or 'one way to do it'
21:16:00 <andythenorth> I can solve this with python, I'm just too lazy to write globals.stuff.property everytime I want it :P
21:16:12 <andythenorth> and to pass globals = globals to the template :P
21:21:06 <Alberth> you write globals at top-level, right?
21:21:59 <Alberth> from globals import * dumps all of them in your name space :p
21:23:02 <Alberth> Hirundo: they are not subtle at all :p
21:23:25 <Alberth> anyways, good night all
21:23:53 <Hirundo> depending on your ifdef-chain, bugs may appear on Wednesdays only etc
21:24:05 *** Shadowthehedgehog16 has joined #openttd
21:24:34 <Shadowthehedgehog16> Have any of you guys seen Plastikman???
21:25:49 *** Shadowthehedgehog16 has quit IRC
21:26:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: afaik, they don't appear in the template namespace unless I pass them
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21:31:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: in the nml projects there's no folder sprites/...
21:31:57 <planetmaker> unless you custom-define the paths differently
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21:32:08 <andythenorth> maybe I added my own
21:32:19 <planetmaker> (for "my" nml project framework)
21:32:25 <andythenorth> I'm happy to take advice on folder structure :)
21:32:31 <planetmaker> because you wanted to keep it the same as nfo
21:32:41 <andythenorth> my brain found that easier :P
21:33:25 <planetmaker> my idea for folder layout is: build scripts (makefile and similar) for the grf go into scripts/
21:33:38 <planetmaker> and source files into src/
21:33:53 <planetmaker> and if you want the graphics into gfx/ or src/gfx. I'm not sure what I like better
21:34:12 <planetmaker> probably src/gfx is better
21:34:28 <andythenorth> template files in /src ?
21:35:13 <planetmaker> they're source. sure
21:35:23 <planetmaker> create whatever subfolders you need within src
21:35:42 <andythenorth> src/templates I guess then
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21:56:30 <nase> is hier jemand auch aus deutschland?
21:58:21 <Rubidium> I've been in Germany (and am not in it right now) does that mean I'm from it as well?
21:59:32 <nase> have the new version is a frwge openttd
21:59:33 <Ammler> nase: there is no German sepaking IRC channel, if you ask for that
21:59:36 *** Shadowthehedgeog99 has joined #openttd
21:59:58 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Is Plastikman here yet. 'cause I need to talk to him.
22:00:12 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: I have not seen Plastikman.
22:00:22 <Rubidium> Shadowthehedgeog99: he has never been here
22:01:00 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Man. This is crap 'cause I've sent the donation to him.
22:01:06 <Rubidium> but Plastikman is locomotion, right?
22:01:31 <Rubidium> so this might not be the right place for finding people working on locomotion related things
22:01:47 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Oh. where can I find him???
22:02:10 <Ammler> maybe www.tt-forums.net
22:02:11 <Shadowthehedgeog99> 'cause some numnut banned me in there.
22:02:34 <Shadowthehedgeog99> They were bullying me around/
22:02:48 <Ammler> you can't buy "unban" :-)
22:03:03 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Where can I find it???
22:03:38 *** GoneWacko has joined #openttd
22:03:43 <GoneWacko> What are you offering?
22:03:46 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Oh u saying I can't???
22:04:15 <Shadowthehedgeog99> People whatever u do. don't let him ban me.
22:04:42 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Yes!!! In your face
22:05:29 <Shadowthehedgeog99> What's wrong???
22:06:05 <Ammler> hehe, you are lucky, I am no op here :-P
22:06:17 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Ur talking to me???
22:06:26 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
22:06:43 <Shadowthehedgeog99> I'm just a fan of Plastikman.
22:07:18 <Rubidium> well, he's not here, never has been here and probably never will be here
22:07:51 <Rubidium> but that you should already know
22:08:11 *** lobster has joined #openttd
22:08:14 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Man. I wish I could talk to him for my life
22:08:14 <Ammler> does #tycoon still exist?
22:08:29 <orudge> Ammler: why wouldn't it?
22:08:38 <orudge> #tycoon has proudly existed since 2003 or so
22:08:43 <Shadowthehedgeog99> I really want to be his friend.
22:08:46 <orudge> There was a #transtyc somewhere in 2002-ish
22:09:09 <planetmaker> Shadowthehedgeog99: then write him instead of whining here
22:09:13 <Prof_Frink> and #irritatingtycoons at some point.
22:09:15 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Hey orudge. I sent a donation for you.
22:09:33 <Prof_Frink> And... the Other Channel.
22:10:05 <Shadowthehedgeog99> oh God not again.
22:10:27 *** Shadowthehedgeog98 has joined #openttd
22:10:49 *** Shadowthehedgeog99 has quit IRC
22:11:08 <Shadowthehedgeog98> Sorry. I was using the other username.
22:11:19 <Shadowthehedgeog98> I tried something.
22:11:29 <orudge> Shadowthehedgeog98: when?
22:11:40 <Shadowthehedgeog98> Like last week.
22:12:00 <orudge> If you sent a donation for AMI Trains, then you should have access to download the donationware pack
22:12:04 <Shadowthehedgeog98> I meant the donation.
22:12:32 <orudge> If for some reason you don't, please let me know your username on AMI and I can check it
22:12:34 <Shadowthehedgeog98> I was waiting for ur email to send me the newer donationware pack
22:12:53 <Shadowthehedgeog98> I'll send it to u.
22:12:54 <orudge> I just host AMI Trains, I am not responsible for the content itself
22:13:48 <orudge> I'm not sure if there is a 2012 donationware pack yet, you'd have to ask Plastikman probably
22:14:17 <Shadowthehedgeog98> That what I was trying to talk to him but most people are saying he's not online.
22:14:23 <orudge> send him a PM on the forums
22:14:32 <Shadowthehedgeog98> What's a PM???
22:14:40 <orudge> press the little 'pm' button next to his username
22:14:41 <orudge> it's a private message
22:14:46 <planetmaker> a packaged form of myself :-P
22:14:49 <orudge> I'm pretty sure that everybody who has sent donations has been added to the file group, anyway
22:17:05 <Shadowthehedgeog98> Well since I'm not a member of tt-forums.net, I guess you can send me an email for him.
22:17:17 <orudge> I can't, no, I don't have time
22:17:20 <orudge> You can easily sign up :)
22:17:41 <Shadowthehedgeog98> I'm not sure about forums.
22:18:04 <lobster> because they bully you?
22:18:24 <planetmaker> I'm not sure about people who need other people to ask yet other people for them for yet other things
22:18:25 *** Shadowthehedgeog98 has quit IRC
22:20:34 *** Shadowthehedgeog99 has joined #openttd
22:21:22 <Shadowthehedgeog99> If GoneWacko bans me again I will kick him to death.
22:21:33 <GoneWacko> now that's just not very nice
22:21:48 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Yeah the why did u ban me???
22:22:00 <Prof_Frink> Because he's a big fat meanie.
22:22:16 <Shadowthehedgeog99> But don't let him ban me ok.
22:22:30 <Prof_Frink> The GoneWacko hath no power here.
22:22:37 <planetmaker> can you please discuss your locomotion issues somewhere where they're on-topic?
22:22:53 <planetmaker> I might become a big fat meanie otherwise
22:22:54 <Shadowthehedgeog99> Yeah that's righ!!!
22:23:58 *** Shadowthehedgeog99 has quit IRC
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22:33:24 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
22:36:18 *** GoneWacko has left #openttd
22:40:24 <TrueBrain> that concludes the daily drama
22:40:46 <Chris_Booth> ahahhahahahahahahahahhaahh
22:41:42 <Chris_Booth> thought I would just add some drama
22:41:53 <Chris_Booth> didn't work very well though
23:25:59 <andythenorth> the solution I have for global constants is just *not* better than the c pre-processor way
23:26:07 <andythenorth> ${global_constants.truck_type_nums.fifth_wheel_truck}
23:26:17 <andythenorth> instead of NUM_TRUCK_TYPE_FIFTH_WHEEL
23:26:34 <andythenorth> although it is at least mostly explicit where it's getting the value from
continue to next day ⏵
