IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-01-28
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00:00:57 <andythenorth> now all I need is a quick way to __init__ a class populating values (args) from a dict
00:01:21 <andythenorth> I guess I just write it out
00:01:31 <andythenorth> foo = passed_dict['foo']
00:02:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Do I have this right? 100 km/h is ~3.6 tiles/day?
00:07:23 <andythenorth> how do I instantiate a python class with an arbitrary name?
00:07:40 <andythenorth> i.e x = myClass() gives me an object named x
00:07:46 <andythenorth> but I need x to be a variable
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00:10:07 <Rhamphoryncus> myClass already is a variable
00:10:25 <Rhamphoryncus> oh wait, misread you
00:10:52 <Rhamphoryncus> creating locals like that is generally a Really Bad Idea. What's the context?
00:12:15 <michi_cc> Rhamphoryncus: Should be right. 128 km/h-ish (1 km/h-ish == 1.6 mph) equals one tile every 16 ticks.
00:14:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Well I've gone and immortalized it on the wiki.
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04:18:11 <Rhamphoryncus> So many face palms in this game. Forgetting to refit a vehicle. Forgetting to tell them to transfer. Forgetting to tell the plane to leave the hangar...
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08:36:00 <andythenorth> trying to put arbitrary attributes on a python obj by iterating over a dict in the __init__ method - stupid?
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08:52:32 <andythenorth> there's an example that shows using dict as a superclass of my class for the same result
08:52:41 <andythenorth> but apparently it's a bad pattern (leaks memory easily)
08:52:48 <andythenorth> maybe I just write everything out longhand :P
08:53:32 <andythenorth> stupider is easier to understand
08:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're really evil, you can modify self.__dict__ directly :)
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09:07:17 * andythenorth is not that evil :P
09:08:34 * andythenorth is writing out attributes longhand
09:08:38 <andythenorth> no ** args evilness
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09:43:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you seen the evilness i use in processing.py and write.py? :)
09:44:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and especially in generate.py:foreach_vehicle() :)
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10:05:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have seen that you have a lot of 'code is strings' :P
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10:45:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, nice. Upgrading to faster train cars is actually slowing the trains down. They don't have the power for the extra bit of weight
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10:47:44 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: my python local assignment question last night was dumb ;)
10:48:00 <Rhamphoryncus> The best ones are ;)
10:48:10 <andythenorth> I'm now doing my_list.append(MyClass()) to get a list of class instances
10:48:21 <andythenorth> dunno if that's good, but it's a pattern I use a lot :P
10:48:27 <andythenorth> dunno why I forgot it
10:53:52 <Rhamphoryncus> set should also be considered, depending on your needs
11:03:08 <andythenorth> set is iterable I assume
11:07:36 * LordAro ponders if Truebrain/Rubidium has yet seen FS#5015...
11:08:47 <Rubidium> LordAro: maybe use the right URL?
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11:11:37 * andythenorth proposes a version of ottd where infrastructure and operating companies are separate
11:11:40 <andythenorth> for 'reality' :P
11:12:14 <andythenorth> we would need to add new parts of the gui for 'protracted negotiation' and 'courtroom'
11:12:37 * MNIM proposes andythenorth programs it and builds the ai for it
11:12:57 <Rubidium> LordAro: *also* not on the mirrors. Mostly because the mirrors use "<their URI for OpenTTD mirror>/<stuff after openttd.org/ in the binaries URL>"
11:18:30 <Rubidium> LordAro: in your "test script" add the binaries/ to the nightly path as well and try again. It will fail twice
11:18:47 <TrueBrain> and for that reason I just closed the bug :) Not a bug :D
11:19:20 <LordAro> very well, thanks for the pointers
11:19:30 <TrueBrain> LordAro: best is to copy the links from our website
11:19:34 <TrueBrain> they are always correct :)
11:19:40 <TrueBrain> (and not press them, copy them, remove the language part)
11:19:58 <TrueBrain> some mirrors give us less control in what is public
11:20:13 <LordAro> i guess i should've asked here first, but it was late, and i didn't want to forget anything
11:20:42 <TrueBrain> it is just a bit funny that you did add /binaries in one link, and not in the other :)
11:20:51 <TrueBrain> should have been a hint there :D:D :)
11:21:48 <LordAro> and i must have sort of assumed they were in completely different folders.... or something :)
11:22:03 <TrueBrain> they are not :) The links are very predefined :)
11:22:09 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: if you're up for easy bugs (to work around): Slovak is screwed again in WT3 and FS#4993 needs your attention ;)
11:22:27 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you do know you also know how to fix it, right? :)
11:23:09 <Rubidium> the screwed Slovak? No, I don't know how to fix that bug. Only how to work around it ;)
11:23:32 <Rubidium> but I'm always having to hunt which script it was exactly
12:08:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23860 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Add cargo property 1D to set the capacity multipliers when refitting vehicles, which do not use callback 15.
12:11:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23861 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp engine_type.h):
12:11:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: [NewGRF] New algorithm (activated via an engine flag) to determine the
12:11:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: capacity of vehicles. This allows vehicles to better control the capacity for
12:11:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: cargotypes which they know; and let cargo NewGRFs influence the capacity for
12:11:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: cargos the vehicle NewGRF does not know, but which the vehicle is refittable to
12:11:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: due to cargo classes.
12:15:48 <frosch123> i can type long messages as well :p
12:17:34 <Rubidium> frosch123: but it's neither truncated by CIA nor by DorpsGek
12:18:11 <frosch123> hmm, true, so it is not that long
12:22:44 <Hirundo> There used to be 1 complicated capacity algorithm to document to NML users
12:23:01 <frosch123> now there are two :p
12:23:05 <Hirundo> Now there are 2, plus a flag to select one of them
12:23:40 <frosch123> imo you should always set that flag, and add two properties "capacity for known cargos" and "capacity for unknown cargos"
12:24:21 <frosch123> everything else will break when industry grfs really start to use the new cargo property
12:24:57 <Hirundo> how would these properties work internally?
12:26:05 <frosch123> one property sets the capacity in "tons of coal", the other must check the current cargo type and can then return whatever capacity it likes
12:26:32 <frosch123> maybe you can also archieve that via "units"
12:26:53 <frosch123> but i do not know how nml deals with units, and where it can deal with them
12:26:58 <Hirundo> properties or callbacks?
12:27:51 <frosch123> the property would have two units, either "tons coal", or "units of default cargo"
12:28:23 <frosch123> the callback would have "tons of coal", or "tons of selected cargo"
12:28:51 <Hirundo> Then set the misc flag based on the unit selected in the property?
12:29:10 <frosch123> (of course "units of default cargo" makes no sense, if the default cargo is the first refittable. but that is exactly what the new algorithm is about)
12:29:35 <Hirundo> Problem with that is, that you cannot set one flag at a time, only the whole mask
12:30:09 <Hirundo> action 0 is like write only memory
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12:31:05 <frosch123> hmm, so you would have to analyse all "if"s when combing them :o
12:33:23 <Hirundo> Reading support for action 0 properties would be nice, esp. for the many cases where unrelated stuff is put in one property
12:34:09 <Hirundo> Complex stuff like layouts and such can of course not be read, but simple stuff can
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12:53:46 <Hirundo> frosch123: For now I see no real way to always enable the flag, except by politely asking the user
12:54:13 <frosch123> does nml actually have a "default cargo type" property?
12:54:44 <Hirundo> in grfv7 it was automagically set to 'first refittable'
12:54:47 <frosch123> well, then maybe just set the property for nml 0.3 and redefine the property?
12:55:00 <frosch123> i.e. make it a 0.3 change
12:55:32 <frosch123> if you have no specific default cargo, then not setting that property only works by luck :p
12:55:54 <Hirundo> adding 'default ctype' property is no real problem, but I don't see the connection here
12:56:43 <frosch123> if you have a vehicle carrying coal and goods, the meaning on the value depends on the availability of COAL
12:57:19 <Hirundo> in fact, it depends on the order of coal and goods in your ctt
12:57:30 <frosch123> if you set the capacity to 4, and coal is available, then default cargo will be coal. the vehicle will carry 4 tons of coal or 8 crates of goods
12:57:45 <frosch123> if coal is not available, then goods will be the default cargo, and it will carry 4 crates of goods
12:58:45 <Hirundo> Which is why I documented, that you should always use the callback (15) when working with pax/mail/goods
12:58:54 <Hirundo> But with the new multiplier, the effect might be worse
12:59:53 <frosch123> i think you can still state that
13:00:19 <frosch123> but you need to make it transparent to the user, whether he is using cb 15 or cb 36
13:01:19 <Hirundo> either callbacks should be split, or some variable should be created to indicate which callback you are in
13:09:47 <MJP> Hi! In the function DeleteWindowById() (in window.cpp), I can't understand the check. Shouldn't it be something more like "(w && (force || (w->flags & WF_STICKY) == 0))" instead ?
13:14:09 <Terkhen> what are you trying to do?
13:17:43 <MJP> I was looking for something like FocusWindowById() so I took DeleteWindowById() as a model but the check seems wrong to me
13:25:12 <SmatZ> MJP: the check looks fine
13:25:23 <Steve^> Put graphics in ~/.openttd/baseset
13:25:30 <frosch123> MJP: calling "delete NULL" is no problem
13:25:34 <Steve^> Still get "Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD."
13:25:58 <frosch123> Steve^: what version of openttd did you install?
13:26:08 <Yexo> <Hirundo> either callbacks should be split, or some variable should be created to indicate which callback you are in <- there is already a variable "current_callback"
13:26:18 <MJP> oh, ok then, thanks for your answers
13:26:29 <frosch123> Steve^: than put the baseset into ~/.openttd/data
13:27:12 <frosch123> ~/.openttd/baseset is for 1.2
13:27:17 <Steve^> why are all the instructions not related to the latest version?
13:27:43 <frosch123> they are already for the new version of 1.2-betas :)
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13:27:58 <Steve^> Are they stable enough I should use them insterad?
13:28:04 <frosch123> "latest" is a fishy term if there is stable, beta and nightlies
13:28:11 <Yexo> yes, they are stable enough
13:28:26 <Yexo> if you want to play multiplayer use 1.1.5, otherwise 1.2.0-beta3 or a recent nightly
13:28:34 <Hirundo> Yexo: I know, but it is not something I'd like exposed to users unless needed
13:29:18 <Yexo> Steve^: that's the readme for 1.2.0-beta3, not for 1.1.5
13:29:28 <Steve^> it's the one on the 1.1.5 download page
13:30:10 <frosch123> hmm, yeah, that is unfortunate
13:30:30 <frosch123> TrueBrain: can we link to the right readme somehow?
13:30:56 <Steve^> Why don't you bundle all the opengfx etc with the main download?
13:31:15 <Yexo> because when you update openttd you don't need to download opengfx again
13:31:40 <Yexo> and if you use 1.2 openttd offers to download and install opengfx when you run it the first time
13:32:06 <Steve^> Wish I'd just used 1.2 to start with :)
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13:37:25 <TrueBrain> frosch123: you really have to give me some context, as 2 lines higher and 2 lines lower does not give me any indication what you talk about :)
13:38:13 <Yexo> the directory structure changed slightly, so it's confusing
13:38:27 <TrueBrain> see, that is useful; at least context where the link is not right :P
13:38:44 <frosch123> i was about to post the same :(
13:38:58 <TrueBrain> I wonder why the fuck it links to that url in the first place
13:39:00 <TrueBrain> that is silly at best
13:39:10 <Steve^> Is it possible to reverse the right click scroll direction?
13:39:11 <frosch123> it's a website, so whaT?
13:39:28 <frosch123> Steve^: yes, see advanced settings->intercae
13:39:34 <TrueBrain> Yexo: yeah, I was considering the same
13:39:37 <TrueBrain> would be the only sane solution
13:39:40 <TrueBrain> to add the readme there
13:39:46 <TrueBrain> otherwise you will keep having the issue over and over
13:39:52 <TrueBrain> (as the nightlies are not correct etc)
13:39:56 <Steve^> frosch123: perfect, thanks
13:41:04 <TrueBrain> but first I wonder what updates that link, as .... media should not be used like that
13:41:32 <TrueBrain> it is not even a symlink; Rubidium, do you update that file on release, or?
13:44:31 <TrueBrain> ah, nevermind , found it; finger update script :)
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14:11:10 <TrueBrain> Yexo / frosch123: I fixed it somewhat; nightlies ar enow broken, but that will hopefully be fixed by next release :)
14:11:37 <TrueBrain> when-ever the next nightly is
14:12:15 <Yexo> basically all old releases have a broken link now I guess
14:12:31 <Steve^> who, road signals give a lot of warning!
14:12:36 <TrueBrain> I fixed up all releases
14:12:42 <Steve^> I guess gone are the TTD days of random explosions
14:12:43 <TrueBrain> only nightlies are 'broken'
14:12:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23862 /trunk/src/table/cargo_const.h: -Fix (r23860): Fix sweets capacity.
14:13:04 <TrueBrain> (and 'broken' between quotes, as I guess it is better to have a 404 than wrong info :D)
14:13:47 <planetmaker> hm, could it not link to the readme in the svn, like a perma-link?
14:14:14 <Yexo> planetmaker: not for alternative releases like cargodist/chillpp etc.
14:15:14 <TrueBrain> and if you request an older nightly?
14:15:18 <TrueBrain> how about, for example, head-to-head?
14:17:03 <planetmaker> well, the changelog is correctly linked. Why not the readme?
14:17:17 <TrueBrain> and welcome to 1 hour ago :D
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14:44:39 <Steve^> do rivers grow back? :(
14:49:08 <theholyduck> i have a question directed at the general community
14:49:19 <theholyduck> why is it that when playing online, i only see 2 principle type of players
14:49:40 <theholyduck> the point to pointers and the network where every single tile has a pbs signal
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14:56:21 <frosch123> theholyduck: you are playing on the wrong servers :p
14:56:45 <frosch123> the latter type might disappear with 1.2 and infrastructure maintenance
14:58:41 <theholyduck> frosch123, i find myself almost never using pbs signals, because they're pretty much worse or just as good as any of the other options. also they are ugly
14:58:46 <theholyduck> as in they look ugly :P
15:00:17 <theholyduck> frosch123, speaking of wrong servers, whats with all the servers with the original train physics?
15:00:52 <frosch123> what about all those servers which noone plays on?
15:01:09 <theholyduck> frosch123, well, i find if you join them at a low year count, people will come
15:01:21 <theholyduck> my problem is half the servers i join have something about them i despise
15:02:30 * theholyduck goes away to be angry somewhere else
15:07:39 <Ammler> setup your own server, there are too few around anyway
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15:23:13 <theholyduck> Ammler, thats another option i guess.
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15:35:59 <frosch123> hmm, sometimes stuff is broken that used to work before
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17:23:01 <andythenorth> which is easier to read (when working with code)?
17:23:04 <andythenorth> spritegroup ${vehicle.id}_sg {
17:23:12 <andythenorth> spritegroup ${vehicle.id + '_sg'} {
17:23:50 <andythenorth> the explicit concatenation is entirely pointless but is it more obvious what's happening?
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17:28:09 <frosch123> are you reopening the chapter on macro processer development? i thought it was commonly agreed on, that that was finished around 1970? :p
17:28:48 <andythenorth> I'm just checking sanity
17:28:58 <andythenorth> I prefer spritegroup ${vehicle.id}_sg
17:29:12 <andythenorth> in my day job I sometimes have to do the explicit concatenation, so I'm used to it
17:29:20 <andythenorth> it's worse though
17:30:09 <frosch123> well ${vehicle.id + '_sg'} is unusual. i expected ${vehicle.id}_sg or ${vehicle.id} + "_sg"
17:30:54 <frosch123> or ${echo ${vehicle.id} '_sg'}
17:31:05 <andythenorth> can evaluate arbitrary python within the {}
17:31:35 <andythenorth> may not be smart though
17:31:58 * andythenorth is possibly about to get a lot less moany about the state of nml
17:31:59 <frosch123> $ is for shell variables :)
17:32:09 * andythenorth might also stop asking dumb cpp questions
17:32:15 <andythenorth> but first - chores :P
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17:56:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23863 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Fix (r22981): '' != ' == 0'.
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17:58:34 * andythenorth ponders finding a pretty printer for dicts :P
17:58:40 <andythenorth> one line being sub-optimal
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18:11:11 <andythenorth> more, simpler templates with duplicated code?
18:11:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23864 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Railtype overlays were drawn 'only transparent' on invisible bridges.
18:11:20 <andythenorth> or one complicated template that's harder to read?
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18:25:19 <mr_boo> click it just for views please
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18:34:07 <cmircea> Is it still possible to remove/add NewGRFs while in a game?
18:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23865 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt vietnamese.txt):
18:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 109 changes by OliTTD
18:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 3 changes by nglekhoi
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19:36:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23866 /trunk/src/newgrf_railtype.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Give NewGRF defined level crossings and rail depots access to the townzone.
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19:46:28 <SummerBul> I'm looking for help with setting a goal for a multiplayer game
19:47:47 <Rubidium> what version of OpenTTD?
19:48:16 <frosch123> (don't answer something < 1.2-beta)
19:50:28 <frosch123> pick an interesting one, download it via the ingame download, configure it in the main menu, and start a server
19:50:44 <Rubidium> in OpenTTD you can in the intro game click on AI/Game settings, then on Check online content. At the bottom of the list there are a few goal scripts you can download
19:51:03 <Rubidium> after downloading it, select it in the AI/Game settings window
19:51:25 <andythenorth> using python to run my script, this works for paths: path = os.getcwd()
19:51:36 <andythenorth> but when I add a shebang and try and execute it, it fails
19:51:46 <andythenorth> os.path stuff confuses me
19:51:54 <andythenorth> is there a simple answer?
19:52:12 <andythenorth> I need the path to be ../sprites/nml
19:53:04 <SummerBul> the thing is, i'm not getting any NoGo script in the online content download mwnu
19:53:26 <Rubidium> SummerBul: at the bottom there are some game scripts
19:53:45 <SummerBul> Rubidium, that sounds more reasonable
20:01:46 <SummerBul> The online content only lists 4 game scripts. none of them include a simple "Reach 20 Mil" or "Claim a city and have it's population reach 100k
20:02:05 <Rubidium> then nobody made that goal script yet
20:02:21 <Rubidium> or rather, nobody release such a goal script
20:02:26 <SummerBul> but it exists in lots of online servers
20:02:46 <Rubidium> as I said, nobody has released it
20:03:25 <SummerBul> So how do i write my one script?
20:04:23 <Rubidium> sadly enough it seems you have to do that
20:05:44 <Rubidium> I have never made a goal script, so I can't really tell you
20:10:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23867 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5020]: make the colour of the dropdown items for opening the vehicle list for which the company has no vehicles looking less horrid
20:11:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23868 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#5013-ish]: Make a certain tooltip more precise.
20:15:07 <SummerBul> so GS is squirrel too?
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20:16:53 <frosch123> yes, the api is also mostly the same
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22:42:51 <Leftie> Howdy. Looking for a quick bit of help. Having trouble getting OpenTTD 1.2.0 b3 to enter fullscreen mode, using a laptop.
22:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> trouble finding the alt+enter key?
22:43:52 <Leftie> No. it fails, hence the help :p
22:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of fail?
22:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause> NEVER make .jpg screenshots, make .png
22:45:52 <Leftie> I think I know whats bestl
22:46:06 <Leftie> It's a simple red box, the contents are easily readable. a GIF would have sufficed.
22:46:18 <Leftie> I only use PNG when quality is an actual issue.
22:46:45 <__ln__> we may choose not to even look at jpg screenshots.
22:46:55 <Eddi|zuHause> use JPG only ever for photos. whenever you have computer-generated content, use png
22:46:56 <Leftie> then that isn't my issue.
22:47:12 <__ln__> Leftie: so you don't actually want any help, it seems.
22:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> JPG is by design absolutely incapable of drawing a straight line
22:47:35 <Leftie> No, I just fail to see the relevancy of this discussion. I can read the image fine, and I have severely limited eye sight.
22:48:08 <Leftie> If it was a screenshot depicting an issue in a full sized screenshot in game, then PNG would be more accurate, but for a massive red box with clear text, jpg is easy seeable and saves space on the server.
22:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Leftie: so when it's foggy, do you say "i don't need my lights on, i can see perfectly fine"?
22:48:42 <Leftie> Does anyone know the issue, or can assist. Y/N.
22:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Leftie: openttd PNG screenshots are typically smaller than JPG
22:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the "it saves space" is a lie
22:49:19 <Leftie> Quite frankly, i don't take take screenshots in OTTD.
22:49:31 <Leftie> That image was done using prt scr and ms paint.
22:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Leftie: anyway, tried setting a proper resolution?
22:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> from the dropdown menu
22:50:03 <Terkhen> Leftie: the PNG screenshots created by OpenTTD contain additional info that can be useful in checking possible problems
22:50:03 <Leftie> I've tried using all options the menu allows me to use.
22:50:15 <Terkhen> probably not the case with this problem, though
22:50:21 <Leftie> From the Laptops native, right down to 600 by 4**
22:51:13 <Leftie> Every res gives the same error, or rather, alt+enter just flickers a bit, and pushing full screen on settings produces that error.
22:54:53 <Terkhen> I would try to update the video card drivers, but I have no idea of what might be causing that
22:55:09 <Terkhen> you should also check known-bugs.txt, IIRC there are a few issues with fullscreen depending on your OS
22:55:36 <michi_cc> Leftie: Likely your laptop graphics hardware is not capable of 8bpp graphic modes. Open your openttd.cfg in a text editor and change the blitter line to read "blitter = 32bpp-anim".
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22:56:23 <michi_cc> Hmm, 'blitter = "32bpp-anim"' (i.e. "s around the 32bpp-anim) actually, I think.
22:56:24 <Leftie> Terkhen: ah. well its a fairly old laptop, Acer Aspire. might be the card.
22:58:38 <Leftie> and michi_cc: didn't seem to work, ah well. It's not too important, i just tend to prefer playing games full screen.
23:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> why are there some glyphs in mono.png that extend over the sprite border?
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23:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you draw an 8 with 4x3 pixels?
23:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/glyphs.png <-- suggestions?
continue to next day ⏵
