IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-01-26
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01:35:42 <Asteconn> Dia doaibh a chairde!
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01:45:36 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: patch is coming along. Not 100% happy with my approach though.
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07:12:53 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.1.5, 1.2.0-beta3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only"
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11:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> good err... night
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12:23:47 <andythenorth> I need some advice wrt correct thing to do with FIRS
12:24:16 <andythenorth> (1) hand over the project to a new maintainer (2) abandon it (3) fork the project from 0.6.4 (4) something else
12:38:06 <andythenorth> Ammler: any ideas?
12:39:24 <Ammler> andythenorth: I miss context :-) you do not want to use nml?
12:40:54 <Ammler> what else is different in 0.6 then?
12:41:03 <dihedral> fork the project for another maintainer and continue your own path in your own time
12:41:29 <dihedral> or - grab another maintainer to continue where you are stuck, with 2 minds instead of one
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12:42:38 <andythenorth> but I figured out I can't maintain the project
12:42:38 <andythenorth> I don't understand the code base
12:42:38 <andythenorth> I'm dependent on other people to fix bugs, also same for writing new code
12:42:38 <andythenorth> I can't even get graphics into industries
12:42:38 <andythenorth> the responsible thing to do would be to hand over the project
12:42:46 <Ammler> aren't you right now basically the only dev for FIRS, so how can you get in trouble with someone else?
12:43:43 <andythenorth> Ammler: 0.6.4 is the last nfo release
12:43:51 <andythenorth> so I'd branch from there and continue with nfo
12:44:19 <Ammler> so nml isn't fine :'-(
12:45:32 <andythenorth> nfo / nml both fine
12:45:41 <andythenorth> it's more that I wrote the codebase for the nfo version
12:45:48 <andythenorth> and it's mostly commented etc
12:46:12 <andythenorth> I'm no good at working with other people's code it seems :(
12:47:04 <andythenorth> although I didn't write the code for CHIPS, and that's fine
12:48:28 <Ammler> well, if you continue on the nfo code, you basically trash the nml converting
12:48:37 <Ammler> as nobody else will continue there
12:50:37 <planetmaker> I won't argue. So tired
12:52:45 * andythenorth doesn't want to argue. I just want to do the correct thing
12:52:47 <planetmaker> but I guess I just stop to care
12:52:57 <andythenorth> usually I just do what I want then say sorry later
12:53:18 <andythenorth> but that can be bad :(
12:53:47 <Ammler> continue on the nfo code while others made the nml convering is stupid, sorry
12:54:00 <planetmaker> I still think very much you didn't even try to code a single industry without any templating
12:54:17 <planetmaker> which is the first step. But you want to skip steps 1 to 6 in learning NML and start with step 7
12:55:06 <planetmaker> I coded the whole of swedish rails without templates
12:55:16 <Ammler> I guess, you basically need to forget about nfo, which you invested much time in learning it, which is understandable
12:55:19 <planetmaker> later I introduced a few small ones.
12:56:21 <planetmaker> for what it's worth, but I'll need to be honest: I surely would be offended, if you continued FIRS in nfo. Even if I don't want to be
12:56:36 <andythenorth> yeah, I don't want to do that
12:56:56 <andythenorth> I wonder if I should try and find a new maintainer
12:57:04 <andythenorth> seems the most honest thing to do
12:57:07 <Ammler> it's not about the maintainer
12:57:21 <Ammler> it's you, who is needed
12:57:52 <planetmaker> if you come to the conclusion you don't want nml. Then doing it nfo is the right way
12:58:53 <planetmaker> While I like FIRS to the degree I like contributing code (after all I spend weeks of coding on it already), I don't feel like I want to be the maintainer
12:59:15 <planetmaker> my current time budget simply doesn't allow that. Esp. given my other projects
12:59:39 <Ammler> how would another maintainer solve the issue?
13:00:13 <Ammler> I guess, what you want is another coder :-)
13:03:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth: did you try so far to make a single industry? No templates? Just pure NML in one file?
13:04:21 <planetmaker> I think only when that is mastered, and that's not really that difficult, then you should judge
13:04:51 <planetmaker> But really, learn it stepwise. You didn't become an nfo templating master by trying to write the firs 0.6.4 code from the start
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16:52:16 <spongie> Hi guys! I always have at least one train at the station loading up, yet I don't get above 80%, how come?
16:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause> look at the "game mechanics" page on the wiki
16:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it explains how station rating works
16:53:43 <Eddi|zuHause> basically: "always a train waiting" gives you ca. 67%. the rest must be obtained by other means
16:54:55 <spongie> oh what other means hehe?
16:56:00 <spongie> argh, that table is too much to handle
16:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicle speed, statue, advertising, ...
17:04:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: any idea why a patch like this would put the makefile in an infinite loop, running the generate script over and over again? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/generate.diff
17:11:51 <Mazur> Oh, everybidy's at dinner.
17:12:25 <Mazur> That should have been: everybiddy, of course.
17:14:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I looped the makefile the other day, can't remember how though :o
17:14:37 <andythenorth> it was editing the same type of code as your paste though
17:15:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: a little more structure would be nice
17:17:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I went back over my terminal history for clues but didn't find anything, sorry :(
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17:20:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: iirc it was a simple typo when I looped the makefile
17:21:03 <andythenorth> but my memory ain't great ;)
17:24:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23854 /trunk/src/ (core/random_func.cpp core/random_func.hpp debug.cpp debug.h): -Codechange: make it easier to put random debug stuff into the random log
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17:42:18 <spongie> it says the n% transported is < 100% even though I have a train waiting. "n% transported" is the station rating? im pretty sure I can transport anything that is produced or transferred.
17:48:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23855 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5007]: out of bounds read for slowdown parameter caused desync when railtype >= 4, vehicles were fast, and the original acceleration model was used
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17:51:35 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Did you try delcaring "generate" as .PHONY? Still shouldn't produce an infinite loop I guess.
17:51:54 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: never heard of that
17:52:51 <michi_cc> Maybe "A phony target should not be a prerequisite of a real target file; if it is, its recipe will be run every time make goes to update that file." is relevant here.
17:55:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like the opposite of what i want
17:57:32 <michi_cc> Maybe let "src/engines.gnml" be the rule that does the work and give it as a prerequsite to the other two targets.
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17:59:43 <Eddi|zuHause> devzone weirdness: why didn't it throw the r555 error on push?
18:00:33 <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause, how do you mean that, "more structure"? More separated? More with similar industries near eachother? DIfferent colours so it's clearer?
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18:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: i thought of grouping it in circles and sectors
18:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> circles: inner: town, middle: secondary, outer:primary
18:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> sectors: agriculture, construction, manufacturing, chemical/energy
18:01:46 <Mazur> You're leaving out tertiary and quartery.
18:01:59 <andythenorth> it's a hard problem
18:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no such thing as quartery
18:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and tertiary == town
18:02:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that doesn't really stack up for FIRS
18:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> where "town" includes the shop, hotel, etc.
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18:03:04 <andythenorth> my understanding of tertiary is the layer of second-secondaries
18:03:10 <andythenorth> this varies from wikipedia's understanding :P
18:03:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have several secondary industries in a chain
18:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what i mean with "secondary" is "industries that both produce and accept cargo [other than supplies]"
18:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: and i'd leave out the passengers
18:04:29 * andythenorth has been too grouchy recently and is going away for a bit
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18:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: devzone doesn't have grfcodec?
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18:13:45 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you want distro package, release or nightly?
18:14:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i need grfcodec in CETS build
18:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: CETS r556 fails with "command not found"
18:14:37 <Ammler> in your case, it might be easiest to add a requires file
18:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: how do i do that?
18:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: and i have a feeling "build on push" is ignored lately
18:16:50 <Ammler> echo -e "nml\ngrfcodec" > .devzone/build/requires
18:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: last "build on push" is from almost 3 days ago
18:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> there were several pushes inbetween
18:25:42 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, the last build was stock, I retriggered
18:27:30 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what happened there, that always worked before
18:28:29 * Belugas is happy. he does not have to process US taxes anymore!
18:29:08 <Belugas> Those guys are pure genious when it comes to bring in the most devilish tax policy yu can imagine!
18:29:32 <Belugas> so now, we're call ing a service that does it all for us, one shot kiss goodbye :)
18:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood US taxes
18:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> in europe, all retail prices must be given including tax
18:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and on the final summary it must be written which part is taxes
18:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i have a feeling by adding the "requires" file it ignores all previous requirements (coming from the "type" file, i presume)
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18:37:58 <Belugas> they have a5 levels of "possible" tax authorities, with tresholds, variable rates (some chages are even possible within same city different zip codes)
18:38:57 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany they have two levels of taxes, one for food and one for other stuff... and this is constant over whole of germany
18:40:11 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, basically
18:40:14 <xiong> An Advanced Setting allows sending money to other companies. I have it ON. How do I actually send money now?
18:40:21 <ccfreak2k> there's federal taxes, and state taxes, and county taxes.
18:40:32 <ccfreak2k> Going between cities could yield different totals.
18:42:04 <Rubidium> you're talking about VAT, right?
18:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: since Belugas is in the cash register business, i thought that was implied
18:42:50 <Belugas> Value Added Tax, which means: tax added at the tilt
18:43:01 <Rubidium> then we got three (0%, 6% and 19%)
18:43:04 <xiong> US cities, counties and states impose sales tax; not quite the same thing but similar.
18:43:24 <Eddi|zuHause> what has 0% VAT?
18:43:43 <Belugas> some of those taxes are added on top of others
18:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the levels are 7% (food) and 19% (luxury) in germany
18:44:13 <Belugas> exemptions are sometimes encoded as 0%, which is a nice hack
18:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> where not all food is actually in the food category
18:44:23 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: buying prescribed medicin, some banking stuff
18:44:26 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: International airplane tickets for example.
18:45:07 <Rubidium> yeah, rabbit feed is 6%, guinea pig feed is 19% ;)
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23856 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt german.txt latvian.txt slovak.txt welsh.txt):
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 21 changes by OliTTD
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 4 changes by Parastais
18:45:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovak - 19 changes by dafree
18:45:38 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
18:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> to make things worse, there's also some non-food in the food category
18:46:05 <Belugas> yeah to the craziness!
18:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> like, staying at a hotel (wtf?!?)
18:46:57 <chester> i heard of a man who eat planes
18:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause> eating at the hotel restaurant, however, is non-food
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18:48:55 <xiong> No search reveals any explanation of sending money. Wiki, forum, SE, all come up dry.
18:49:01 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: "nml\ngrfcodec" <-- I didn't forget nml ;-)
18:49:15 <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: can send money from the client list
18:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: yes. but since when do i follow advise? :)
18:50:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it seemed illogical to have to give nml twice
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18:51:17 <supermop> i have an obnoxious idea!
18:51:48 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: there are other ways but this seems easiest in your case
18:51:57 <supermop> has refitting locomotives been properly sorted out yet?
18:52:00 <supermop> or do they still need a cargo?
18:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: they still need a cargo, but you can set capacity to 0
18:52:37 <supermop> ok thats not ideal but would work
18:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so you don't need a special cargo, just can pick an existing one
18:53:06 <supermop> can different refits have different running costs?
18:53:32 <supermop> and different introduction dates?
18:54:26 <supermop> can a locomotive influence the decay rate of it's carriages?
18:54:54 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the VAT seems to be different in Büsingen and Helgoland though ;)
18:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> that should be the other way round: the carriages check the locomotive
18:55:25 <supermop> i cant think of any other way to model desirability than decay rate
18:55:36 <frosch123> ah, you can if you define the wagons yourself. i.e. the locomotive cannot change the wagons, but the wagons can change their rating depending on the locomotive
18:56:10 <supermop> but lets say a streamlined locomotive is prettier than the same engine stripped of its exterior
18:56:37 <frosch123> you don't see the engine when sitting inside the train :p
18:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: the easiest way i can imagine is to use the user-bitmask for that
18:56:38 <supermop> there is no way yet for 'prettiness' not increase station rating or cargo payments
18:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: and reading that in cb36 for the decay rate of the wagon
18:56:53 <supermop> but you could abuse passenger decay rate
18:57:04 <frosch123> but you can increase the running cost without streamlined stuff
18:57:21 <supermop> to simulate the public liking the shiny new train
18:57:30 <supermop> well i was think that but
18:57:56 <supermop> streamlining increases fuel efficiency, so reduces running costs,
18:58:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have a low-speed running cost and a high-speed running cost
18:58:25 <supermop> but it makes maintenance more difficult, so it should also increase running cost
18:58:58 <supermop> i figured it would be more simple to fake a 'desirability' of the train
18:59:50 <supermop> so you could have generic steam train, introduced 1920 running cost x, decay rate y
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19:00:09 <supermop> 5 years later, streamlined refit becomes available
19:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: anyway, how can a build be "stuck" for 3 days? shouldn't you have like a timeout?
19:00:50 <supermop> running cost more or less equal to x, or a bit higher, decay rate 0.8y
19:01:07 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yes, we "should" :-P
19:01:36 <frosch123> supermop: mind that you cannot autoreplace between refits
19:01:51 <frosch123> so, upgrades are no easy business for the player
19:02:01 <supermop> then austerity refit say 15 -20 years later (avoid wartime naming), with running cost 0.7x, decay rate 1.5y
19:02:01 <frosch123> if they are done via refitting
19:02:37 <supermop> well the player decides whether he wants to overhaul his stock to the fancy new fairings or keep the old ones
19:02:48 <Elukka> if you refit a locoomotive to a cargo with a capacity of 0, will it still break 'full load all' commands?
19:02:58 <Elukka> (ie, the train will wait forever for a cargo that can't be loaded)
19:02:58 <frosch123> supermop: but he would have to replace every single engine manually
19:03:43 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: also the player won't get informed of the new refit/upgrade options via news message
19:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> which is both something i hellishly hate about av8
19:04:33 <andythenorth> autoreplace / renew and subtype tricks don't play nicely
19:04:53 <supermop> it seems like it would still be better than selling your streamlined trains to buy new trains meant to simulate the old streamlined trains with their fairings stripped off
19:05:18 <andythenorth> supermop: I think you're applying 'logic'
19:05:26 <supermop> anyway i did preface this by saying it was an obnoxious suggestion
19:05:37 <andythenorth> whereas you might be better applying 'we are where we are' :)
19:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: in CETS we update the livery based on last service date, but without any gameplay effect
19:06:26 <supermop> but i like to micromanage my fleet, cascading crappy trains down to freight or branch lines
19:06:42 <supermop> so maybe i'm the only audience for this idea
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19:07:20 <supermop> and parking my really old trains in a yard outside a depot
19:07:20 <andythenorth> or you play the wrong game :)
19:07:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "micromanagement" is generally a bad idea. the game needs to provide means for "macromanagement"
19:07:51 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: there's a bit of a flaw with that.. if you don't play with servicing/breakdowns, liveries will never be updated
19:07:59 <Elukka> i dunno if there's a better option though
19:08:13 <supermop> also take those 3 refits i mentioned
19:08:36 <supermop> lets call them ginzu a4 mk i, mk ii, and mk iii
19:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: one idea was that the running cost could be increased if not servicing
19:08:38 <Elukka> i stopped playing with servicing when i realized trains suck at finding paths to depots
19:08:41 <Elukka> that was a while ago though
19:09:00 <Elukka> it always messed up all my trains when they'd try to find a depot
19:09:24 <supermop> maybe a set has those as three separate locomotives instead
19:09:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: another idea was to offer a switch to update the livery "immediately"/"on service"/"never"
19:09:48 <Elukka> i think that's the best idea
19:09:53 <supermop> with the hidden option to refit a mk i to mk ii spec
19:10:58 <supermop> that way if you buy a mk i one year before the mkii comes out, it's not immediately obsolete or superceded
19:11:09 <Eddi|zuHause> where "never" actually means "depends on build date"
19:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (so some later liveries might be unavailable)
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19:39:09 <SmatZ> also, ACTA signed by EU countries today
19:43:34 <xiong> Sorry, SmatZ; I'm not Chinese.
19:44:16 <SmatZ> no problem xiong, sorry for not knowing what nationality you are
19:44:31 <__ln__> you are not required to be Chinese, it's enough to read Chinese
19:44:49 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: the question is wrong. should be "anyone know chinese"?
19:45:02 <SmatZ> yes, I know the question was wrong
19:45:23 <SmatZ> but anyone who knows chinese could say "I am not chinese, but I can translate it for you"
19:45:32 <SmatZ> but yes, I should have asked better :)
19:45:51 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: do you know chinese, by any chance? :)
19:45:54 <xiong> Sorry, SmatZ; I can't translate Chinese.
19:46:05 <xiong> Yes, I should have replied better.
19:46:24 <SmatZ> thank you xiong; it's not your fault my question was not exact :)
19:46:45 <xiong> Your question was clear. Sorry I can't help.
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19:47:13 <xiong> Does anyone have the least idea how to send money to another company? Or is this one of those purely theoretical features?
19:47:28 <SmatZ> xiong: you can send money to player
19:47:42 <SmatZ> (I don't know why it's designed that way)
19:47:51 <SmatZ> just open the Client list (in-game)
19:48:10 <SmatZ> select the client, and choose "send money"
19:48:57 <SmatZ> (press LMB on the client, keep it pressed, and choose "send money")
19:49:02 <SmatZ> or "give money", I think
19:49:28 <xiong> Where might this Client list be?
19:54:03 <xiong> I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse. I don't know what you're doing to open the Client list in the first place.
19:55:19 <xiong> Ah. The face icon. Thank you. And only in multiplayer.
19:56:15 <xiong> So I've backed myself into a corner by starting in single player.
19:56:40 <frosch123> in single player you have to go via cheats
19:56:54 <frosch123> add 10M to the other, subtract 10M from you
19:57:04 <xiong> I don't understand why there's a distinction between the two modes. What's the difference between playing single and running a multiplayer game without anybody else invited?
19:58:07 <xiong> BTW, I feel I have to say, No, I'm not purely antisocial. My schedule is just irregular and offbeat. I've tried online games and either it messes up my sleep and work... or I mess up the game.
20:01:43 <frosch123> some things are technically not possible to do in multiplayer. so, to make it fair we forbid some stuff in singleplayer, too :p
20:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> tbh, i never understood the "feature" that makes you give money to clients, not companies
20:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it always sounds like a hack has gone horribly wrong
20:04:54 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: patches to change that are welcome
20:05:45 <SmatZ> and yes, moving the "give money" button to the Company Information screen has been discussed a few times ;)
20:05:54 <SmatZ> but nobody has ever implemented it
20:06:03 <frosch123> i always thought it is because you know the players you chat with, but you do not know the random company names of them
20:06:30 <frosch123> and judging company colour from nick names can be hard for some colours
20:06:49 <SmatZ> the player can tell you the company name
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20:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe, but still you can't give money to "yourself" in a "one-player" multiplayer game
20:08:30 <SmatZ> I would welcome the ability to give money to AIs
20:08:36 <SmatZ> or AIs give money to me
20:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it should be totally reworked, so you can transfer money by buying shares
20:11:07 <SmatZ> I think OpenTTD is about building & transport, it's not an economy simulator
20:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but we have a share system, and it's pretty useless. also we have a give money system that is pretty useless. by combining the two, it may become something useful
20:14:28 <Eddi|zuHause> also by tieing it to shares, you can impose limits
20:14:31 <SmatZ> or something even more useless :)
20:15:00 <Eddi|zuHause> like you can't buy more than 49% shares
20:15:43 <SmatZ> I am not sure that is really needed
20:16:53 <SmatZ> eg. a system of "I will borrow 1M from you in the exchange of 10% of my income in the next 10 years" doesn't seem to fit into openttd
20:17:01 <SmatZ> but maybe it would e fine...
20:17:13 <SmatZ> in #openttdcoop, there are never problems with money
20:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: it would also be a possibility to replace the money-borrowing mechanism with selling shares
20:18:16 <Rhamphoryncus> There already is a system for borrowing money. It's a loan. From the bank.
20:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so "max loan" would be equivalent to "49% shareholder value"
20:19:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which means it will properly scale throughout the game
20:19:32 <SmatZ> it could scale even over 49%
20:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's not "repay loan after 2 years, and then forget about it"
20:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: that has some implications over company control
20:20:25 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: not sure if that should be modelled
20:20:35 <SmatZ> and when more than 50% of shares is sold, players for that company could control the other company, but not vice versa
20:20:37 <xiong> Anybody who thinks it's too easy to earn money; try chillpack with 7 AIs. After 18 years, yes, I'm way ahead and money isn't a problem. But the first decade is a bit tougher.
20:20:42 <SmatZ> it wouldn't be hard code-wise
20:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> selling >50% shares may mean "i want to sell my company"
20:21:05 <SmatZ> (well, swapping the company you are playing at would need a GUI)
20:21:52 <xiong> Isn't shuffling money between multiple zerg companies specifically frowned upon on most servers?
20:22:40 <SmatZ> xiong: you can't give someone money you have borrowed from the bank
20:23:00 <SmatZ> so it's not like "start a new company, give all money to company X, let that company bankrupt"
20:23:15 <xiong> I hope you mean, you can't send money when you're in debt.
20:23:59 <SmatZ> when your bank ballance is 1.2M, and you have 1M borrowed from the bank, you can give someone at most 0.2M
20:24:49 <xiong> But you might roll up a nice wad using underhanded tactics and skim off the profit to another company before you get busted out by server admin.
20:26:21 <SmatZ> xiong: the admin might kick/ban the IP you are connected from
20:26:36 <SmatZ> so you are kicked from the server from both companies
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20:26:56 <xiong> Yes. That's why hardworking zergers switch IPs.
20:27:25 <xiong> OT: We had considerable issues with that sort of cheat when playing Diplomacy.
20:27:34 <SmatZ> would anyone do that just to cheat in openttd?
20:28:18 <xiong> I gather most of the OTTD multiplay is cooperative so cheating really makes no sense.
20:28:51 <frosch123> i am not so sure about that
20:29:20 <frosch123> those goal servers do not look so cooperative, but rather cheat as much as allowed
20:30:24 <Eddi|zuHause> my (limited) experience with multiplayer is that it's mostly "stay out of each others way", with the occasional "flatten the whole map" sprinkled in
20:32:52 <frosch123> players do the latter also in single player
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20:43:28 <supermop> can one code stations in nml yet?
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20:59:44 <supermop_> nice we got a little 4g hotspot to take on site visits
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21:19:59 <andythenorth> Yexo: does $ have any significance in nml currently?
21:21:34 <supermop> maybe you should pay yexo some $ to get the features you want in nml?
21:22:15 <Rubidium> I guess you're better off offering €
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21:27:18 <supermop> i'd say yen would be a bit more desirable at the moment
21:28:01 <Rubidium> why? That's been weak for decades
21:28:46 <supermop> its very strong at the moment
21:29:37 <supermop> a dollar buys 77 yen today versus 120 in 2005
21:30:12 * andythenorth has just invented python templating
21:30:19 <andythenorth> only it already exists
21:30:22 <__ln__> but does that tell more about the yen or the dollar?
21:30:41 <andythenorth> this is fortunate, because my implementation might suck
21:31:06 <supermop> yen actually, everyone spent 2011 using it as their safe bet due to worries over the euro
21:31:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: fancy trying to see if python templating can replace more cpp?
21:31:51 <andythenorth> not sure I understand how to use it yet
21:40:28 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: wait, how many languages is openttd using now?
21:41:29 <andythenorth> this could work - for simple nml cases at least
21:42:31 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: around 70
21:42:44 <Rhamphoryncus> .... *programming* languages :P
21:42:50 <andythenorth> variadic cpp macros work, but they stink
21:43:14 <andythenorth> they look nothing like the string replacement / templating sane people use
21:43:59 <andythenorth> ${something}_better
21:44:23 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: [18:04:00] planetmaker: any idea why a patch like this would put the makefile in an infinite loop, running the generate script over and over again? www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/generate.diff <-- you have a circular dep. Where you touch the files with the gen script which depends on the files
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21:44:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Gimme another 20 years and I may have a better language for you ;)
21:46:55 <planetmaker> 22:37 Eddi|zuHause: [19:09:19] planetmaker: devzone doesn't have grfcodec? <-- it does. But by default it knows NML and NFO projects. Thus it uses one or the other template. You can use a custom requirement thing so it has also grfcodec
21:47:11 <Rubidium> C, C++, Objective-C, sed, awk, bash, vbs, squirrel, sh, Makefile
21:47:56 <frosch123> also strgen and settingsgen :p
21:48:07 <frosch123> and projectfilegen?
21:49:51 <Rubidium> those aren't that general purpose
21:50:18 <Rubidium> in the first ten you could probably write a Turing machine, the latter four probably not
21:50:21 <Rhamphoryncus> most of those I expected. objective-c and vbs?
21:50:55 <Rubidium> vbs = version determination / project file regeneration on Windows
21:51:14 <Steve^> Is there a changelog for releases?
21:51:22 <Rhamphoryncus> All reasonable and justified. Still makes quite the list.
21:51:43 <frosch123> Steve^: there is a changelog next to every download
21:51:58 <Rubidium> Steve^: from which download is the changelog missing?
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21:52:14 <frosch123> there is of course also a summary on the wiki
21:52:24 <Steve^> frosch123: that sounds more like what I want
21:52:37 <Steve^> I basically want to know what's been going on since I last played
21:52:43 <frosch123> search for "release history" or so
21:53:01 <frosch123> it lists major new features and links to the manual in most cases
21:54:32 <andythenorth> 'python pre-processor' :)
21:56:22 * andythenorth wonders if cpp defines are still relevant
21:56:25 <andythenorth> I kind of like them
22:00:10 <andythenorth> which is more readable?
22:00:12 <andythenorth> ${truck_id}_switch_cargo_subtype
22:00:18 <andythenorth> ${truck_id_switch_cargo_subtype}
22:00:42 <andythenorth> the second example would require a concatenation elsewhere
22:01:13 <andythenorth> and couples the template and all the calls to the template more horribly
22:01:31 <andythenorth> the first example is clunkier, but better decoupled
22:10:24 <andythenorth> cpp #if is still useful
22:10:32 <andythenorth> although I dislike it
22:20:10 * andythenorth wonders if cpp evaluates #if 1 == 2 as false
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22:32:05 <andythenorth> string replacement is fine
22:32:11 <andythenorth> but it's limited without macros or includes
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22:39:07 <andythenorth> python templates can be chained, but it's clunk and requires a function definition afaict
22:39:15 <andythenorth> clunk / clunky /s
22:42:15 <andythenorth> too easy to accidentally write a generator
22:42:18 <andythenorth> generators are evil
22:44:59 <SpComb> generators are the awesomeest
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