IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-01-01
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00:05:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23698 /trunk/src/ (55 files in 3 dirs): -Fix (r21685): small, apparantly yearly reoccuring, typo
00:07:31 <encoded> ah, good one Rubidium
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02:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so... party's over
02:39:36 <Eddi|zuHause> can't the year be extracted from an svn keyword?
02:41:12 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: a free commit is good :)
02:45:40 <Hawson> Eddi|zuHause: the commit time is in the ID tag
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02:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Hawson: that wasm't really the question
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08:42:25 <Terkhen> and happy new year :P
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09:00:43 <Terkhen> feliz año nuevo andythenorth
09:00:56 <Terkhen> that word means... something else :P
09:02:14 * andythenorth is lacking on accents and such :)
09:04:11 <andythenorth> time for FIRS 0.7.1 ?
09:11:19 <Afdal> I have a quick question if anyone can answer it
09:11:54 <Afdal> In regards to cargo "transported" when calculating an industry's probability of growing in a month
09:12:25 <Afdal> Does it matter if the cargo actually reaches a destination, or does it only need to be on a vehicle?
09:12:34 <Afdal> Directly correlating with station rating, that is
09:19:17 <andythenorth> only needs pickup
09:19:26 <andythenorth> you can cheat...
09:20:10 <Afdal> It just seems like my industries grow more when I transport small amounts frequentlyover short distances for some reason
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09:21:44 <Afdal> So if I want my industries to grow optimally, do I just have to make sure that their station ratings never go below 80%?
09:22:32 <Afdal> On Smooth economy setting, that is
09:27:50 <Afdal> The thing about it when that says "tranported" though
09:28:01 <Afdal> Is it doesn't necessarily mean cargo transported
09:28:47 <Afdal> The transport percentage depends on station rating which if in influence by a few more factors than simply cargo transport
09:29:29 <Afdal> Just wanted to make sure
09:30:19 <Terkhen> it just needs cargo to be taken away, it does not need to reach a destination
09:31:10 <Afdal> It doesn't even need to me moved, right?
09:31:14 <Terkhen> you could for example build two truck stations two tiles apart, use a few trucks to transfer cargo to the second station and the primary industry would grow
09:31:15 <Afdal> Just picked up by something
09:31:37 <Terkhen> to my knowledge yes, honestly I have never looked at this in such detail :)
09:32:15 <Afdal> I was making small industry growing stations at long-distance stations
09:32:26 <Afdal> industry-growing networks
09:32:30 <Afdal> but I guess that isn't necessary
09:32:51 <Terkhen> distance does not matter, just cargo being picked up
09:33:11 <Afdal> well it wasn't so much the distance with that
09:33:26 <Afdal> I just wanted something to continually pick up and drop off cargo
09:33:32 <Afdal> but I see that isn't necessary
09:33:47 <Terkhen> that helps for keeping the rating up
09:33:57 <Terkhen> which in turn is what determines if production grows
09:34:01 <Afdal> But you can do the same by just making sure the station
09:34:07 <Afdal> always has trains loading in it
09:34:34 <Afdal> without the extra network*
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09:41:04 <andythenorth> Afdal: 'transported' in the industry window means 'cargo was moved to a station'
09:41:13 <andythenorth> the amount moved to station depends on station rating(s)
09:41:26 <Afdal> Thanks, that makes much more sense
09:42:00 <andythenorth> so if there is an industry with 2,000t production, and the nearby station(s) have ratings of 10%, only 200t will be made availalble at the station(s)
09:42:56 <andythenorth> and tactics for boosting ratings is as described in the wiki page linked above: pickup, age of vehicle, speed of vehicle, statue etc
09:43:34 <andythenorth> the most effective piglet is probably a ship as ships boost station ratings for longer
09:43:41 <andythenorth> but cheating - meh ;)
09:44:21 <andythenorth> if station ratings are annoying you, latest FIRS industry grf has an option to improve how they work
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09:53:17 <Afdal> So I just realized every farm station should have a minimum of three slots
09:54:01 <Afdal> In order to be sure you've always got a train for each type of cargo loading at the station
09:54:20 <Alberth> you can combine wagons of different cargoes in one train
09:54:46 <Afdal> you could always split the station into two, one for grain and another for livestock, but that makes things more complicated with orders
09:55:13 <Afdal> Yeah but that makes it difficult to regulate when you don't split up cargo types
09:55:25 <Afdal> when you're using the full load order
09:55:37 <Alberth> you can do a full load of one cargo, the other one will be as full as there is cargo
09:56:17 <Afdal> It's easier to just clone trains when one production increases
09:56:18 <Alberth> I once built a station with 1 train like that to transport both cargoes to another farm station
09:56:34 <Afdal> than to try and balance exactly how much of one train car you want
09:57:46 <Alberth> you don't have to do balancing much, one cargo is less than fully filled, that's all
09:58:33 <Afdal> but if you want to keep the station ratings maximized for both of them
09:59:11 <Alberth> that's not a good reason, your previous ones were much better :p
09:59:36 <Alberth> since you load both cargoes until one is full, you *are* loading both cargoes all the time
10:00:14 <Alberth> but I agree, more platforms is much easier; I tend to build 4 platforms
10:00:23 <Afdal> But still, when one type increases production over the other
10:00:37 <Afdal> you're going to end up wasting money
10:00:38 <Alberth> yes, then the other cargo is not fully loaded
10:00:59 <Afdal> I guess I'm saying it's just not as efficient
10:01:08 <Afdal> 4 platforms for a single farm?
10:01:28 <Alberth> not sure, waiting longer also costs money :) never bothered to do any math on it though
10:01:35 <Afdal> that's so much work when you're doing terminus
10:01:44 <Alberth> yeah, 2 trains for each cargo
10:02:25 <Terkhen> your call, but trucks are great ;)
10:03:04 <Alberth> especially with FIRS, trucks are fun with farms :)
10:03:31 <Alberth> you can make elaborate schemes where trucks drive around between farms until they are full
10:03:53 <Alberth> if you'd to do that with rails, you have to place so much track
10:04:06 <Terkhen> of course I did not mean the default trucks :)
10:04:10 <Terkhen> a NewGRF industry set
10:04:23 <Terkhen> new industries, new cargos
10:04:39 <Terkhen> of course, you need vehicle NewGRF sets to carry those new cargos
10:04:57 <andythenorth> hmm. BANDIT will have at least 32 truck models between 1905 and 1950. Sounds a lot
10:05:01 <Alberth> less than 24 hours old!
10:05:04 <Terkhen> I wonder if the OpenGFX+ sets work with the new FIRS
10:05:23 <Alberth> Terkhen: good enough excuse :D
10:05:32 <Terkhen> Afdal: for FIRS 0.7.0 you will need to play with OpenTTD 1.2.0 beta, if you prefer to stay with 1.1.4 you can use FIRs 0.6.4
10:05:40 <Afdal> I like how nowhere in that topic post does it actually explain the acronym
10:06:08 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you think we might have broken cargo support?
10:06:19 <Afdal> You OpenTTDers and your irritating jargon D:<
10:06:39 <Terkhen> you did a lot of changes so I'm assuming that you did until someone tests :P
10:06:55 <andythenorth> if we broke class-based refits, something is wrong with classes conceptually...
10:07:04 <andythenorth> if we broke graphics...well
10:07:54 <Terkhen> Afdal: FIRS means FIRS Industry Replacement Set
10:08:01 <andythenorth> Afdal: it's in the thread title :D
10:08:10 <Afdal> oh it's a recursive acronym
10:08:31 <Alberth> Afdal: we are slowly exposing you to the jargon, until it becomes natural. Before you know it, you understand it, and can have discussions about it
10:08:35 <andythenorth> BANDIT is the stupidest recursing acronym so far :)
10:09:09 <Terkhen> we should do a divide and conquer recursive acronym next time
10:09:25 <andythenorth> so no-one thinks ~1 new truck per year is too many?
10:09:41 <Alberth> Terkhen: one where you must write a program for to understand it :)
10:09:57 <Terkhen> and the acronym could be the name for such program :)
10:10:09 <Alberth> andy, I am not a bandit-user yet
10:10:18 <andythenorth> nobody is afaik :)
10:10:45 <Afdal> Actually, that's an interesting idea
10:10:58 <Afdal> I've never tried a self-regulating road vehicle network :o
10:11:03 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO that's okay, but you know that I like trucks :P
10:11:38 <Terkhen> road networks are fun, simpler than trains but you have more load at stations and key points of the network
10:11:56 <Alberth> hmm, do the offers for testing vehicles of some type X appear when you set the max vehicle count of X to 0?
10:12:01 <andythenorth> eGRVTS adds ~40 trucks in the same time frame
10:12:05 <Terkhen> I mostly play with trucks because I can't be bothered to build complex junctions to be honest
10:12:53 <Afdal> I tried making a massive two city passenger network one time
10:13:10 <Afdal> I couldn't figure out how to increase the capacity of my road
10:13:28 <Afdal> due to breakdowns and trucks being dumb and taking forever to pass others
10:13:40 <Terkhen> build extra roads, place stations in them, use a random conditional order to distribute them among the different paths
10:13:48 <Afdal> Eventually I made two roads with waypoints and separate orders
10:13:57 <Afdal> that was the only way I could figure out how to solve it
10:14:04 <andythenorth> checkout src and improve road vehicle overtaking? :)
10:14:05 <Terkhen> if you have slower trucks, they can conditionally use a different road, and in slopes you can force them to use a separate path too
10:14:34 <Terkhen> IIRC there is a crazy road vehicle only game at openttdcoop archive
10:14:47 <Afdal> Really, I thought they only played with trains
10:14:49 <Terkhen> which does even more crazy stuff
10:14:51 <andythenorth> hmm. Do RVs overtake a broken down RV? Or do they just queue?
10:15:02 <Afdal> I need to see this save O:
10:15:23 <Afdal> and then eventually they'll overtake after waiting too long
10:15:29 <Terkhen> andythenorth: RVs overtake if they think that they have enough room before the next cross road, if no one comes from the other direction and if they are not an articulated vehicle
10:15:33 <Afdal> Sadly one-way roads does nothing to help this
10:15:33 <Terkhen> IIRC those were the conditions
10:15:45 <Terkhen> the code itself is kind of arcane
10:15:48 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'm not sure they overtake a broken down RV
10:15:58 <andythenorth> maybe 2012 is the year of RVs? :P
10:16:20 <Alberth> must have missed that year :)
10:16:21 <Terkhen> enjoy realistic acceleration, nothing else is coming for RVs
10:16:43 <andythenorth> past few years have mostly been the years of industries and ships
10:17:05 <andythenorth> there were quite a few patches relating to newgrf ship stuff
10:17:07 <andythenorth> small but needed
10:17:16 <Afdal> There was finally a well-differentiated ship newgrf not too long ago
10:17:20 <Terkhen> 1.2.0 has mostly NewGRF things :)
10:17:28 <Afdal> But sadly they were still really impractical
10:17:30 <Alberth> Afdal: yeah, andy created it
10:17:32 <andythenorth> there have been lots of industry-related patches
10:17:32 <Terkhen> I have to cook a cake, bbl
10:17:35 <Afdal> due to slow speed and high capacity
10:17:44 <Afdal> I tried doing a game with it before
10:17:48 <Alberth> Afdal: like real ships :)
10:17:55 <Afdal> well OpenTTD is a game D:<
10:18:29 <Alberth> if you make ships faster, nobody is going to build trains any more :)
10:18:52 <Alberth> like Terkhen is already lured to the dark side of trucks :D
10:19:00 <Afdal> Actually I just kinda wish there was more to ships
10:19:08 <andythenorth> what do they miss?
10:19:10 <Afdal> More meaningfully different types
10:19:37 <Afdal> If you're moving people there's no point in using anything but hovercraft
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10:19:57 <Afdal> and the refittable cargo ships are kinda useless
10:20:04 <Afdal> The only good use for ships are oil rigs
10:20:17 <Afdal> Yeah, FISH, that's the newgrf I used
10:20:24 <andythenorth> ships have infinite capacity per tile
10:20:32 <andythenorth> so they're insanely effective
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10:21:16 <Afdal> Gosh you guys, I just came in here to ask about industry production
10:21:20 <Afdal> Stop making me talk ;-;
10:22:03 <Afdal> You can always terraform some more room
10:22:12 <Afdal> and transport from those oil rigs with trains
10:22:31 <Alberth> Afdal: not if you use every tile already :)
10:22:48 * Rubidium wonders if Afdal opened the screenshot I linked
10:22:54 <Afdal> I don't see every tile being used in that pic :)
10:23:27 <Afdal> I like your use of canals
10:23:56 <Afdal> Why don't I see any buoys though?
10:24:27 <Rubidium> buoys are for sissies that don't know how the pathfinder behaves ;)
10:24:42 <Afdal> How does the pathfinder behave
10:25:30 * Alberth is tempted to point to the source code, but refrains from doing so
10:25:56 <Afdal> Just tell me how you get away with not using buoys
10:26:02 <Afdal> Especially for those curvey canals
10:26:07 <Alberth> the pathfinder has lots of trouble with large open water, canals are not that
10:26:28 <Afdal> Still you have to place a buoy after a certain distance don't you?
10:26:50 <Afdal> Otherwise you get that "too far from destination" thing
10:27:23 * andythenorth ponders setting cargo aging property for hovercraft
10:27:31 <Alberth> I don't know the exact rule, but I can imagine that happens after the path finder gets too many possibilities. That does not happen with canals
10:28:22 <Afdal> I've trying making a spiral canal before
10:28:33 <Afdal> And my boats needed buoys to navigate it
10:28:43 <Afdal> despite there being no branches or anything
10:28:44 <Alberth> Afdal: the number of ways to traverse some open water is VERY large, the path finder tries them all. In a canal there is only a single path
10:29:05 <Alberth> could be, as I said, I don't know the precise rule for it
10:29:21 <Rubidium> this savegame might be from the time that the check didn't work right ;)
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10:50:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23699 /trunk/src/goal_base.h: -Fix [FS#4928] (r23630): too much copy/pasting only allowed a silly low amount of goals to be created.
10:50:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23700 /trunk/src/subsidy_base.h: -Fix: the size of the Subsidies pool used a random macro, which didn't really make sense in the grand scheme of things
10:51:14 <TrueBrain> and happy new year guys :)
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10:52:47 <Afdal> But I live on Baker Island :(
10:54:49 <TrueBrain> so you want to say it is habited? That would be world news I guess
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11:00:07 <TrueBrain> KingPixaIII: (and one of your many aliases): please fix the stability of your connection; it is rather annoying to count the amount of joins/leaves you make during a day. Tnx!
11:09:12 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: I have not seen Pixa.
11:09:17 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: I have not seen LordPixa.
11:09:23 <DorpsGek> peter1138: I have not seen TrueLight.
11:09:37 <TrueBrain> @kban 3600 *@79-68-103-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com
11:09:37 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: 3600 is not in #openttd.
11:10:05 <TrueBrain> @kban Pixa 3600 Please come back when your connection is more stable. Tnx.
11:10:05 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!~pixa@79-68-103-128.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com
11:10:06 *** Pixa was kicked by DorpsGek (Please come back when your connection is more stable. Tnx.)
11:10:25 <TrueBrain> now only his other IP ..
11:11:13 <TrueBrain> and morning to you too peter1138 :)
11:15:51 <peter1138> eclipse doesn't seem to let you open projects :p
11:16:03 <peter1138> Project -> Open Project is greyed out, heh
11:16:08 <TrueBrain> Eclipse is annoying
11:16:10 <TrueBrain> first make a workspace :P
11:16:15 <TrueBrain> import a project in there
11:16:24 <TrueBrain> fucking worst IDE ever :(
11:17:17 * andythenorth ditched Eclipse, in favour of text editor
11:17:46 <peter1138> then it crashed, lol
11:17:57 <TrueBrain> netbeans, MSVC, notepad
11:18:11 <TrueBrain> safes you a lot of grey hairs in this 2012 :)
11:18:53 <peter1138> only 1 undo in notepad :p
11:18:56 <Rubidium> it has no line numbers
11:18:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: says a lot about Eclipse ;)
11:19:23 <peter1138> eclipse also had no installer
11:19:35 <peter1138> easy to remove, i guess
11:19:42 <TrueBrain> Eclipse itself, sure
11:19:47 <TrueBrain> even multiple versions are easy
11:19:53 <TrueBrain> but if they share the default workspace
11:20:02 <TrueBrain> and the workspace is stored at a random location on your disk :D
11:23:44 <Alberth> you wouldn't want anyone to find your projects, now do you? :)
11:24:20 <Alberth> you can leave the project code in the VCS working copy though
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11:31:20 <TWerkhoven[l]> as in the program called notepad++
11:33:35 * Terkhen uses notepad++ and geany
11:47:40 * fjb|tab uses eclipse and ditched netbeans for becoming slower with every release and requiring special plugins to use compilers for embeded systems.
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12:00:32 <TrueBrain> Alberth: yet nobody said: emacs!
12:01:31 <TrueBrain> I guess because it is not an editor
12:01:33 <TrueBrain> it is an OS after all
12:02:15 <andythenorth> how done is roadtypes?
12:02:30 <Alberth> actually it is designed to be a generic text processing system :p
12:02:34 <TrueBrain> RT_ROAD and RT_TRAM, all done
12:03:24 <andythenorth> how are we going to keep the really big trucks out of your towns then? :O
12:03:48 <TrueBrain> did you just ask about your own repos how far you are?
12:03:59 <andythenorth> I think my project failed :)
12:04:23 <andythenorth> I got stuck when I had to write savegame conversion :P
12:04:36 <andythenorth> despite someone else telling me the code I needed to write :D
12:04:54 <TrueBrain> so don't; if that is the worst you are missing, I am sure someone here can fix it up for you when the rest works :)
12:06:22 <andythenorth> I'd just get stuck on the next step :)
12:06:37 <andythenorth> my life doesn't allow learning new things at the moment
12:06:47 <andythenorth> I have at most ~10 mins of concentration at a time
12:07:01 <TrueBrain> but the repos is frmo 2011-01! :P
12:07:06 <TrueBrain> sorry, I will stop teasing you :D
12:07:27 <andythenorth> I would like to learn C++, but I need more like ~1 day uninterrupted to make any progress at all
12:07:35 <Alberth> so roadtypes is 0.1% done now :)
12:07:50 <andythenorth> BANDIT is 5%(?) done
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12:31:52 <__ln__> it's a conspiracy! last week Michael Scofield was on House M.D., now capt. Lee Adama.
12:35:47 <Alberth> you really think that publicity is not organized ?
12:39:00 <andythenorth> publicity is mostly disorganised
12:41:50 <Alberth> right, like commercial TV broadcasts previous films of some sequence a few weeks before the release of the next film by accident
12:45:27 <Wolf01> hello, looks like a year I don't visit this channel ;)
12:56:30 <TrueBrain> happy new year to you too Wolf01 :D
12:59:23 <appe_> i wish to use openttd on multiple monitors
13:00:03 <appe_> if i stretch the window, the top bar automaticly centers, and the vechicle buttons gets right where the two monitors split.
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13:01:25 <Yexo> in advanced settings you can move the top bar to the left or right instead of centered
13:01:40 <SpComb> appe_: set up a gui multiplayer server on one screen, and a multiplayer client on the other? :)
13:02:07 <SpComb> you won't have shared windows, though
13:02:21 <SpComb> so it depends on what you want to do with them
13:02:56 <Alberth> appe_: play at 640x480? :P
13:03:36 <appe_> i would like openttd with dedicated split screen function
13:04:35 <Alberth> good luck implementing that for all our supported platforms
13:13:06 <appe_> but still, would be neat. :)
13:14:23 <Alberth> improving game play is probably time better spent
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13:18:48 <Alberth> appe_: the right approach would be to add support for it in SDL
13:24:18 <Alberth> For windows a different library is used, don't know which one
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13:25:18 <SpComb> does OpenTTD use SDL as one of the blitters?
13:25:23 <Alberth> it nicely abstracts away the nasty hardware details :)
13:25:42 <Alberth> SpComb SDL is one of the surfaces it can blit to, yes
13:26:19 <Alberth> SpComb ie SDL and GDI are destinations for blitted openttd graphics
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13:27:15 <SpComb> ah, blitter is above the SDL layer
13:27:40 <Alberth> yep, 'blitting' is just jargon for 'copying bitmaps' :)
13:29:29 <Alberth> +keyboard + mouse + window manager event handling, and it can do other low-level stuff too
13:30:14 <Alberth> ie full-screen versus windowed mode is handled by it
13:30:45 <SpComb> and Allegro, whatever that is
13:31:13 <__ln__> how can you not know what's Allegro
13:31:29 <SpComb> missed out on Atari and DOS as a kid
13:32:04 <Alberth> no you need only one of those
13:32:40 <Alberth> eg Cocoa is the backend for Mac, GDI for windows only, SDL runs at many platforms
13:33:37 <Alberth> I have played with Allegro maaaaany years ago, it also provides an abstraction away from the hardware, but what it can do, I don't know
13:33:44 <SpComb> just wondering how many libraries you need to cover $many platforms
13:34:47 <__ln__> you're coming dangerously close to starting yet another discussion of "why not SDL on all platforms?!"
13:35:22 <TrueBrain> SpComb knows better :)
13:35:50 <Alberth> SpComb 'enough' probably :) it depends on how good you can match what you want with the available libraries :p
13:36:41 <Alberth> also, how well a given library implements its thing plays a role
13:41:26 <TinoDidriksen> Switch everything to Qt GraphicsView
13:43:51 <Yexo> TrueBrain: for RV only, look around in the early posts in the NoAI forum
13:44:10 <Yexo> for an empty map that's quite slow due to a lot of houses: look around for cindini
13:44:25 <Yexo> the speed of that one has been improved already, but it might still be a nice testcase
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13:53:34 <TrueBrain> Yexo: wuold you be able to post them in that thead this week or something?
13:53:40 <TrueBrain> kinda hard for me to find which one you mean exactly :(
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14:30:20 <andythenorth> any swedes here?
14:30:28 <andythenorth> I want a nice forest name
14:34:02 <andythenorth> for a truck manufacturer
14:34:22 <andythenorth> and I was born there :P
14:34:30 <andythenorth> plausibly need a fake name for Volvo-esque trucks
14:34:57 <appe_> well, the volvo trucks are made in bras, not so far from here
14:35:24 <appe_> many swedish industries use cargo-like names with funny letters
14:35:46 <appe_> with last as in volvo-lastare, as in volvo-truck.
14:36:33 <appe_> "LASTO trucks from Bras" sounds neat.
14:36:57 <appe_> or else, if timber is the case, you could use geographic words to aid you.
14:37:49 <andythenorth> are there are any national or state forests in Sweden?
14:37:52 <andythenorth> with nice names?
14:40:44 <appe_> The Swedish Forest Industries Federation
14:43:00 <andythenorth> any others - short names better
14:43:15 <__ln__> but it's a town and not a forest and SpComb knows it, but he's envious because he doesn't live there.
14:57:40 <Zuu_> Andy, you want the name of companies operating forrest or name of forrest areas?
14:58:13 <TrueBrain> hello there mister Zuu_ :)
14:58:17 <TrueBrain> you read backlogs? :P
14:59:11 <TrueBrain> Zuu_: would you be so kind to open up bug reports for all the errors / mistakes in GS you have found? I remember youtold about a few, but my memory is heavily failing on me :(
15:00:29 <Zuu_> I don't remember exactly if there are any clear bugs or just missing features.
15:00:32 <andythenorth> Zuu_: name of forest areas ;)
15:00:44 <TrueBrain> I remember something about loading newer GS
15:02:07 <Zuu_> Yep. Also please se my question in the GS topic regarding binding tutorial map to specific GS version.
15:03:33 <TrueBrain> can you make a (clear) bug report out of it? :D
15:05:29 <Zuu_> But still be able to improve the GS in the future and release a new.copy of the same scenario but where the binding as changed to the new GS version.
15:06:18 <Zuu_> I will try (when I get to a real keyboard)
15:07:45 <Zuu_> And I'll try my best to not bee too cryptic ;)
15:08:44 <TrueBrain> that is fine; tnx :D
15:12:26 <Zuu_> Andy, we got forrests like "trollskogen" :) but that one is not large
15:13:58 <Zuu_> Or rather a specific forrest in this word shape
15:16:07 <__ln__> Zuu_: english only, please
15:17:10 <TrueBrain> at least he is consistent
15:17:15 <Zuu_> Thanks for the correction.
15:21:20 <Zuu_> Or you mean that you want names that are word by word translated?
15:27:56 <andythenorth> Zuu_: names of actual swedish forests ;)
15:28:06 <andythenorth> ideally not beginning with S
15:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> [01.01.2012 15:39] <__ln__> den är ingen skog
15:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> [01.01.2012 16:16] <__ln__> Zuu_: english only, please
15:47:58 <__ln__> i didn't say modern english
16:02:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23701 /trunk/src/map.cpp: -Codechange: give TileAddWrap() a 27% speed-up, by swapping entries in an if() statement, and reusing already calculated values (tnx to SmatZ for the ideas)
16:02:46 <andythenorth> ^ 'feels snappier' :P
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16:14:42 * Mazur rises, as if from the grave, maoning and grumbling a little to himself,
16:14:54 <Mazur> Did anyone get hte number on that bus?
16:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the last beer must have been expired?
16:23:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23702 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp:
16:23:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Codechange: avoid using TileAddWrap() in FindStationsAroundTiles() by finding
16:23:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: out where the border is in advance, speeding up the function with a factor 3
16:23:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: (you got to love random statistics which has no real meaning in the grand scheme
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16:33:57 <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause, that'd have been funny, as I only drank wine last night.
16:34:08 <Mazur> A fizzy Italian number, quite nice.
16:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> they are called roman numerals, not italian numbers :p
16:38:05 <Mazur> You're much too awake to have had fun last night.
16:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i already got up two hours ago!
16:38:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23703 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Codechange: allow a compiler to inline a wrapper function, avoiding creation of a function stack, massively increasing its speed, for a function that is called often
16:39:04 * andythenorth went to bed at 00.30 and got up at 4am
16:39:10 <andythenorth> nobody tell me sob stories :P
16:39:13 <andythenorth> hello planetmaker :)
16:39:37 * Mazur does not quite remember what time he went to bed.
16:39:51 <Mazur> I think it was before dawn.
16:48:29 <Snail_> planetmaker: I've been working on the new graphics for custom tunnels we talked about a few days ago
16:49:35 <Snail_> I can post something in a few mins about my progress so far, so you can tell me if I'm on the right track
16:50:11 <planetmaker> looking forward to :-)
16:51:51 * planetmaker pulls brand new FIRS :)
16:52:51 <Snail_> is there a new FIRS out and I missed it? :p
16:53:20 * appe_ builds buses while going on a bus
16:53:21 <andythenorth> last release of 2011
16:53:40 <planetmaker> we need to merge back all 0.7 changes you made to default branch, andythenorth
16:53:47 <planetmaker> as I assume they shall persist, right?
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16:54:28 <LordAro> happy new year all :)
16:54:48 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes
16:54:58 <andythenorth> we discussed that a bit yesterday after you left :)
16:55:07 <andythenorth> we only need one branch now afaik
16:55:27 <andythenorth> but I didn't want to change it in case you intended differently
16:56:05 <Snail_> andythenorth: any new cargoes / cargo class / any changes in the existing cargoes?
16:56:20 <andythenorth> some class changes
16:56:25 <Alberth> LordAro: hi, and a good year to you as well
16:56:40 <andythenorth> Snail_ they're documented in the changelog
16:56:52 <andythenorth> although we should maybe diff against 0.6.4 to be sure :P
16:56:53 <Snail_> ok, will have a look :)
16:57:04 <LordAro> hai Alberth, et al. :)
16:58:38 <planetmaker> Snail_: but only FIRS specific cargos. BDMT and SGCN iirc
16:59:16 <Snail_> still, the code in a trainset supporting them will have to be changed
16:59:22 <planetmaker> you're anyway safe, if you use the new properties which support explicit cargo refit and just use classes for unknown cargos :-)
17:00:12 <planetmaker> (a method I'd advise anyway, also given that not only FIRS sometimes adjusts classes, but ECS got into that habbit every 12 months, too)
17:00:42 <andythenorth> Snail_: sorry - there's no way to preserve graphic support :)
17:00:56 <andythenorth> if we change labels
17:01:01 <planetmaker> which is about the reason for the new cargo properties for vehicles
17:01:21 <andythenorth> we needed to decouple labels + classes properly
17:01:31 <planetmaker> dunno how you code your set, but I'd really recommend to use them preferentially
17:01:32 <andythenorth> otherwise classes fail as an abstraction mechanism
17:01:58 <andythenorth> in theory it should always be safe to change cargo classes, as they should be a black box to vehicle sets
17:02:04 <andythenorth> theory might not hold up in reality :P
17:05:32 <Snail_> but classes are very useful for a vehicle set when deciding what cargoes to refit wagons to
17:05:40 <Snail_> since we can only use 32 cargoes in the mask
17:05:55 <Snail_> and if you sum up the ECS + FIRS unique cargoes, you get > 32 items
17:06:01 <andythenorth> limit is removed
17:06:19 <planetmaker> with the new properties there's no such limit, Snail_
17:06:28 <Snail_> oh, I didn't know that
17:06:47 <planetmaker> just add the list of "I want these cargos" and "I do not want these cargos" and you're done
17:07:01 <planetmaker> thus explicit control. without much thought about bit masks and xor
17:07:05 <Snail_> so you can use explicit cargo refit with cargoes that are anywhere in a vehicle set's CTT (not only in the first 32 places)?
17:07:10 <planetmaker> nor the cargos classes are your worry either
17:07:19 <andythenorth> Snail_: yes, as you said
17:07:33 <andythenorth> Snail_: how do you build your set? Do you have defines or macros or such?
17:07:35 <Snail_> and can then also set the default cargo for any vehicle?
17:07:58 <andythenorth> I guess that has defines or macros or something similar
17:08:30 <andythenorth> it's handy to set things like #define wagon_boxcar [list of cargos]
17:08:36 <andythenorth> then use them for the cargo props ;)
17:09:27 <Snail_> right, I see what you mean
17:12:19 <andythenorth> I now template most of the action 0 props for my vehicles. Eddi|zuHause has gone even further :P
17:12:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i'm severely insane :)
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17:21:19 <Snail_> planetmaker: ok, I finished my first attempt for the custom tunnels
17:21:42 <Snail_> I only did the two views facing the player, for the temperate landscape, both original and openGF
17:22:21 <Snail_> as you suggested, I drew the landscapes with the grass and an edited bowl (I redid the shading to make it fit with different types of portals)
17:22:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r23704 /trunk/src/ (36 files in 5 dirs): -Doc: Doxygen comment fixes and additions.
17:22:41 <Snail_> and I did both the part "behind" and the part "on top" of the trai
17:22:54 <planetmaker> Snail_: why do you leave the gaps in the background where your portals would cover them? What about other people with different ideas about portals?
17:23:13 <Snail_> you mean the transparent blue part?
17:23:35 <Snail_> I can replace it with grass. I thought we would be limited by the point when OTTD turns the vehicle invisible
17:24:27 <Snail_> i.e. if we had the portal in the "back" of the tile, so entering the tunnel a few pixels "later", wouldn't the train become invisible at the point when the original TTD tunnel started?
17:24:33 <planetmaker> I'm not entirely sure where it's made invisible. But I think only at the tile border
17:24:56 <planetmaker> that's why the front part is drawn over the vehicle
17:25:05 <Snail_> I can replace the transparent blue from the background with more grass if you think it'd be better
17:25:28 <michi_cc> Snail_: Generally I think these can graphics can work. Can't tell yet if there's something to improve, but it's definitely a good start.
17:25:49 <Snail_> thanks :) this is encouraging
17:25:51 <planetmaker> yep. I'd add the bit more grass, but it will work
17:26:10 <Snail_> so I will add the grass and then work on the other sides
17:26:19 <andythenorth> Snail_: they look nice :)
17:26:20 <planetmaker> just don't worry about what might be covered by sprites further in front :-)
17:26:28 <planetmaker> we can draw on top of eachother without harm
17:29:30 <michi_cc> Didn't check the code, but I'd guess 4lu from the tile border to prevent the front/back from showing on the next tile at the tunnel inside.
17:30:20 <Alberth> Snail_: the round grassy entrance and the rectangular stone entrance don't match very well imo, I would expect the stone to be more embedded in the ground in such a case
17:30:28 <Snail_> I was thinking to replace 2367 and 2369 with just grass (or snow or desert sand) and change the bowl a little bit on 2368 and 2370
17:30:51 <planetmaker> Snail_: yes, definitely
17:31:04 <planetmaker> for the use with rail sets, they need only be ground. Should only be ground
17:31:46 <Snail_> Alberth: yes that's true. I will have to edit my own stone portals a little bit. But as far as what the "base" is concerned, the "bowl" has to be generic so that it can work with many custom portal types
17:31:53 <michi_cc> Snail_: In this case I'd shorten the bowl a bit, maybe cut of the part where 2370 shows these two darker lines (and fill the are on the bottom sprite instead). That should give enough space to work with.
17:32:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r23705 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: cache the last processed station in FindStationsAroundTiles() in order to make the code a bit faster
17:32:51 <Alberth> Snail_: I guessed as much, and the round yellow-ish entry looks splendid, I must say, no need for other entrances :p
17:32:59 <michi_cc> Make your portal bigger to cover more grass, place some shrubbery or something :)
17:33:41 <Snail_> michi_cc: so add grass on 2369 on the left, where there are the transparent pixels, and instead turn the right edge of the bowl of 2370 to transparent, right?
17:34:26 <michi_cc> Yeah, bowl a bit shorter to give some working space and the grass on 2369 to fill up the hole.
17:34:49 <Snail_> alberth: thanks ;) the yellowish one will be the TGV concrete portals. I still dunno whether it should look yellowish or grayish. I saw a few concrete portals look yellowish like the one I drew and liked it because of more variety
17:35:10 <Snail_> michi_cc: ok got it. I'll implement the changes we discussed
17:35:31 <Snail_> then perhaps we can test it on the temperate climate only before I do the same for the other 5 landscapes?
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17:35:43 <andythenorth> do we get a choice of tunnels as per bridges? :P
17:36:21 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r23706 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: prevent 'unknown command' doxygen errors
17:36:26 <Snail_> this is a question for OTTD developers :D what I have in mind is to have one kind of portal for each rail type, but being able to choose them would be nice :p
17:36:47 <andythenorth> one per railtype is sufficient imo :)
17:37:29 <michi_cc> andythenorth: No, you don't get choice :)
17:37:35 <Alberth> Snail_: yellow-ish seems the better choice to me, given your other grey-ish entrance
17:38:34 <planetmaker> michi_cc: if we have 'per railtype' we can at least choose via newgrf parameter ;-)
17:38:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i see no technical reason to forbid a choice
17:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be interesting to "abuse" such a choice for connecting two tunnel entrances to a double-track one :)
17:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> (although once again the wide distance between double tracks is a problem)
17:40:37 <andythenorth> is introducing new cargo units possible?
17:40:57 * andythenorth is having spec-reading failure :P
17:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the "cargo unit" is just a string
17:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't matter if you call it "crates of goods" or "furlongs of leather"
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18:40:26 <Zuu> TrueBrain: FS#4932 is for you
18:40:38 <LordAro> are [[wikipedia:<pagename>]] links supposed to work on the wiki?
18:42:33 <TrueBrain> Zuu: didnt you have a more imrpotant issue something about newer GSes not loading on older savegames?
18:43:01 <Zuu> Not as far as I remember.
18:43:35 <TrueBrain> I remembered something like that; that if you release a newer GS, they have to restart their map?
18:43:43 <TrueBrain> not sure, I neded a testcase, but forgot afterwards
18:45:18 <Zuu> Yes, ideally, it would be nice if I could ship a upgrade of a GS for running games. Though you told me it was not straight forward due to strings. But if you think it is not something that is by design.
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23707 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 22 changes by arnau
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 19 changes by rusydan
18:45:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: serbian - 2 changes by etran
18:45:43 <TrueBrain> make a bugreport out of it, and I will at least remember to give it a proper look ;)
18:48:47 <andythenorth> in the table of cargos
18:51:59 <Eddi|zuHause> imho there needs to be a way to update a GS for a running game, or add a GS to a game that doesn't have one yet. possibly guarded by the scenario_developer setting
18:53:07 <TrueBrain> he says in a channel with 120 other people
18:53:45 <TrueBrain> like walking into a overcrowded mall and yelling: ANYONE HERE?! :D
18:53:47 <FJ> Looking for a cool Bus GRF... any suggestions?
18:54:28 <LordAro> has no one added the 1.2.0 wiki page yet?
18:54:35 * LordAro adds the 1.2.0 wiki page
18:54:52 <Hirundo> andythenorth: That seems to be the Type B of FIRS / ECS cargos
18:55:20 <andythenorth> your guess might be as good as mine :P
18:55:35 <Hirundo> both, they seem ordered by Type B == nml/nfo ID
18:55:53 <andythenorth> I'm deleting FIRS from that table :)
18:56:07 <Zuu> TrueBrain: FS#4933 <--- sorry forgot to flag it as GameScript, and I'm not authorized to fix that
18:56:15 <andythenorth> the information is worse than useless :P
18:56:34 <TrueBrain> Zuu: fixed, and tnx
18:56:48 <Hirundo> Type B is pointless as of grfv8, it was next to worthless before as it could change at any time
18:57:10 <andythenorth> maybe it's valid for ECS, I don't know
18:57:22 <andythenorth> FIRS shouldn't be in that list though
18:57:30 <TrueBrain> Zuu: "Will not work as expected by the GS author" <- I dont follow?
18:57:55 <Hirundo> Perhaps the list could be kept for hysterical raisins
18:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i disagree... wherelse would FIRS be if not in that list?
18:59:03 <andythenorth> not in that list?
18:59:13 <andythenorth> we talk about the 2nd table on that page?
19:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i see... that table is fairly useless actually...
19:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably be removed completely
19:02:08 <andythenorth> it encourages some very bad behaviour
19:02:23 <andythenorth> can we remove it? Editing it to remove the FIRS column is a PITA
19:02:57 <andythenorth> not using a CTT is fail
19:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's some data that is only useful internal to the industry grf
19:03:05 <andythenorth> not using a CTT should be considered a violation of spec
19:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it has no use for vehicle sets, and thus should not be in the specs
19:04:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: want to make the edit? I have to bath a toddler...
19:04:20 <andythenorth> or I'll do it later
19:04:41 <Eddi|zuHause> we should open a discussion in the forum that drags on for weeks, and then nobody dares to make the actual edit :p
19:05:51 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Answer at FS#4933
19:06:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: better if I just do it and take the flak then :P
19:06:22 <andythenorth> I've just broken sync with ECS anyway for BDMT, so I have it coming to me :P
19:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the answer to that is: use CTT-lists for refit
19:07:07 <andythenorth> and the new props
19:07:21 <andythenorth> which should be more widely explained
19:08:01 <Zuu> TrueBrain: If you fix FS#4933, then 4932 is sort of solved. Although the situation that a user can get a newer GS in a old tutorial scenario can then happen.
19:08:15 <TrueBrain> wll review, and let you know :)
19:09:45 <Zuu> However, the later can probably be detected by the game script by checking the version parameter to GSController::Load(..) and just reject to run the tutorial instead of providing possible buggy behaviour to the user.
19:20:13 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23708 /trunk/src/tile_map.cpp: -Codechange: apply the same trick as r23701 to GetTileSlope(), gaining similar benefits
19:23:05 <Zuu> LordAro: Is the support for Airport NewGRFs new in 1.2 or does 1.1 support OpenGFX+ Airports with the rotatable airports?
19:23:11 <LordAro> i specialise in the version hitory pages
19:23:33 <LordAro> considering i re-wrote most of them :D
19:23:56 <LordAro> Zuu: i didn't see it in the changelog (where i got that list of features from)
19:24:41 <Alberth> np if you don't want to
19:24:52 <LordAro> well, i could have a go
19:25:41 <LordAro> but i think i ran into (thought) problems with regards to the current setup using a newgrf config, but AIs and GS's obviosuly not having that
19:26:59 <Alberth> I don't know how it is stored. It does know about which AIs there are, so it must store that information somewhere
19:27:57 <LordAro> yeah, i guess each 'secion' (AIs, grfs) need their own function extracting that information, going onto a 'global' function
19:28:59 <Zuu> From what I can see it is new in 1.2 stable.
19:29:20 <Zuu> Or is that included in "NewGRF 8"
19:29:24 <LordAro> [19:23:56] <LordAro> Zuu: i didn't see it in the changelog (where i got that list of features from) <-- ;)
19:33:38 <TrueBrain> and nobody told us? :(
19:35:23 <LordAro> sorry, i only found out because i looked on their channel page
19:36:06 <andythenorth> it was mentioned last night by someone
19:36:09 <andythenorth> you were all....busy
19:39:10 <LordAro> jonty comp and s acro mentioned it last night, if anyone cares ;)
19:40:39 * Zuu would love to have captions for those videos, but that is probably wishing for too much :-)
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19:50:24 <Yexo> <Zuu> From what I can see it is new in 1.2 stable. <- it was already supported in 1.1
19:51:04 <Zuu> So that OpenGFX+ Airports require 1.2 is not because of anything airport related?
19:51:25 <Yexo> older versions worked in 1.1
19:54:35 <planetmaker> it's more making use of easy-to-use newgrf features which is mostly below the hood
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20:22:12 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I removed that cargo list table, but it might be a mistake
20:22:21 <andythenorth> much of the preceding text refers to it
20:22:34 <andythenorth> although I think it's mostly redundant information
20:22:42 <andythenorth> and should instead say 'use a CTT'
20:25:25 <andythenorth> newgrf wiki = spec, and the spec entirely allows for using Type A and Type B IDs wherever you like
20:25:29 <andythenorth> even if it's insane
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21:32:27 <LSky`> andythenorth: , i added a savegame to your FIRS thread
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21:52:18 <appe_> inflation is killing me
21:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> inflation over 170 years increases the running cost by about factor 5
21:57:42 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (1.04/1.03)**170
21:57:42 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.16820201339
21:57:50 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (1.02/1.01)**170
21:57:50 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 5.33821002416
21:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> with 2% inflation it's slightly worse than with 4%
22:18:25 <andythenorth> inflation hurts on long games
22:18:35 <andythenorth> cost inflation seems to run higher than price inflation :P
22:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's what the above formula shows
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22:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> not the absolute price increase, but the relative increase of cost vs. income
22:24:20 <LSky`> andythenorth: did you take a look at the savegame?
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22:32:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23709 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Feature-ish: try harder to sort text instead of fancy characters in the server names
22:34:11 <andythenorth> LSky`: savegame loads fine for me
22:34:16 <Elukka> bwah i think i don't quite have the skill to draw a good tanker yet
22:34:44 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: any particular wagon you'd like drawn?
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22:35:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23710 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Change: make the default secondary sort method for the server list the number of clients instead of the name
22:35:21 <LSky`> ill try a fresh reinstall or something
22:35:40 <andythenorth> Rubidium: any way to get metadata from a savegame?
22:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: we need the earlier wagon generation, which is basically slightly shorter ones than the second generation
22:35:58 <Rubidium> andythenorth: what kind of data?
22:36:16 <Rubidium> try gamelog in the ingame console when the game is loaded
22:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the freight cars
22:36:33 <Elukka> hm. freight cars are missing a lot of stuff too
22:37:05 <Alberth> andythenorth: type 'gamelog' in the console
22:37:21 <andythenorth> LSky`: I can nothing obviously wrong with your save
22:37:31 <LSky`> Right, a reinstall did the trick
22:37:31 <andythenorth> nor do I know of anything else to test :|
22:37:35 <andythenorth> file an ottd bug?
22:37:50 <andythenorth> might be FIRS, but no FIRS dev has been able to reproduce
22:37:54 <Alberth> LSky`: reinstall what?
22:38:02 <andythenorth> LSky` where did you get your FIRS from?
22:38:10 <LSky`> i tried automatic download first
22:38:15 <Elukka> tanker, lidded wagon, refrigerated wagon, stake car...
22:38:19 <LSky`> then manual, that gave the same error
22:38:28 <Elukka> is there a refrigerator variant of the g10?
22:38:28 <LSky`> but now i reinstalled openttd, same grf settings, now it works :\
22:38:55 <LSky`> i have the faulty installation still though
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23:19:52 *** HOMOPiRATE is now known as iddqd
23:20:58 <iddqd> I have a question, my ratings in both towns are really low, could this be because i’m feeding everything to my train station?
23:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that was yesterday :=)
23:21:41 <Eddi|zuHause> town ratings are low if you destroy lots of trees
23:22:09 <iddqd> so having only feeder stations in a town ahs no negative standing?
23:22:27 <iddqd> im kind of stuck now because i can’t build stations in the town
23:22:45 <iddqd> planting trees does no good (i plant trees in a large square around the city)
23:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the rating rises with each visited station
23:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have a bus/tram system already, make sure all stations are visited regularly
23:23:42 <iddqd> they are, but only to drop off people
23:23:54 <iddqd> cuz there’s a trainstation in between the 2 towns that i have negative ratings for
23:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> "visit" means "load or unload at least 1 piece of cargo"
23:25:34 <iddqd> that’s the situation in in
23:25:50 <iddqd> there are many busses loading people in (center) and unloading next to station
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continue to next day ⏵
