IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-12-01
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09:24:04 <z-MaTRiX> { return i < 0 ? -i : i;}
09:24:24 <b_jonas> z-MaTRiX: who cares? most of the time, you'll be actually using the gcc builtin instead of that implementation.
09:24:49 <z-MaTRiX> well mentioned because it even lacks ()
09:25:10 <b_jonas> why'd it need parens?
09:25:34 <z-MaTRiX> guys here were competing for shortest C-code
09:25:43 <z-MaTRiX> so its -4 bytes then
09:26:46 <z-MaTRiX> well i never tried it without () for example
09:27:04 <z-MaTRiX> in bash you have [[ as a command
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10:26:13 <z-MaTRiX> .it, i'm not surprised ;>
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10:34:59 <planetmaker> hm, still no new QC. He's slacking ;-)
11:05:55 <dihedral> if it were a .gr i'd at least support the try in making money :-P
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11:57:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23382 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4845] (r23336): NewGRF window and content download window were always hidden under the saveload window
12:03:22 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23383 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/ (17 files in 5 dirs): -Update: bring Squirrel to 2.2.5; besides some nice bug fixes, it mostly solves the sort() issues
12:03:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23384 /trunk/ (23 files in 7 dirs): -Remove: no longer allow a binary to be without AI support; the parts some compilers failed at, are integrated in other parts of the code now too
12:04:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23385 /trunk/src/lang/ (50 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: remove now unused strings from all other languages too
12:04:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23386 /trunk/ (15 files in 6 dirs): -Fix: debug script related events to 'script' (removes 'ai')
12:04:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23387 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: move ai.script_max_opcode_till_suspend to script.script_max_opcode_till_suspend
12:04:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23388 /trunk/src/lang/ (49 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: remove now unused strings from all other languages too
12:08:51 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: r23386 is most likely of some importance to you, as you were asking for it the other day ;)
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15:14:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: glx * r23389 /trunk/projects/ (4 files): -Fix (r11777, r12077, r12078): wrong include in strgen project
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16:45:39 <Joostlek> sorry i'm from the netherlands
16:45:55 <Joostlek> but are there cheats for android
16:46:52 <blathijs> Joostlek: Hehe, The funny thing is that you, me and Rubidium are also Dutchies ;-)
16:47:03 <Joostlek> oke nederlands praten
16:47:11 <blathijs> Joostlek: It's CTRL+ALT+C normally, not sure how that would work on Android though
16:47:30 <blathijs> Joostlek: We prefer English, since there's a hundred more non-Dutchies in here as well :-)_
16:47:33 <Rubidium> depends on whether those who ported OpenTTD to the android have cared to find some way to enter the normal hotkey for the cheat window
16:48:07 <Joostlek> we have kipfilet a la romana
16:48:27 <Joostlek> (idon't know how to say in english
16:48:38 <blathijs> Rubidium: I don't suppose the Android porter is one from the official OpenTTD team, right?
16:49:37 <Rubidium> blathijs: I have no clue who did it, and I even think it being on the android market violates the android market's requirements
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17:34:03 <Joostlek> and kipfilet a la romana was dilicious
17:34:26 <Joostlek> i eat the bord off my brother and my sister and my father
17:37:29 <TrueBrain> plate, is the word ;)
17:42:55 * Rubidium goes for a French named dish, just to annoy Belugas ;)
17:43:13 <Rubidium> (and for some telly)
17:44:11 <Joostlek> whos playing minecraft
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17:45:40 <Joostlek> who have hamachi and minecraft
17:47:07 <planetmaker> you should ask in a minecraft channel
17:47:12 <planetmaker> both is totally off-topic here
17:47:38 <Joostlek> but there isn't anybody at that channel
17:48:17 <planetmaker> I couldn't care less
17:49:05 <Joostlek> but do you have minecraft + hamachi
17:50:26 <planetmaker> no. And please ask in forums or channels where that is on-topic
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18:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so... this atlantean campaign is definitely crazy :p
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18:33:22 <Wolf01> today I indroduced another job mate to OTTD :P
18:34:07 <Alberth> oh, you gave him something to do during the xmas holidays :p
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18:45:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23390 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by Wowanxm
18:45:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
18:45:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
18:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
18:46:25 <Terkhen> meh, I missed translations for just a few minutes
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19:11:12 <andythenorth> hi Terkhen how is the job?
19:12:12 <Terkhen> right now we are taking a course, so I still don't know how is the job :P
19:13:12 <andythenorth> how is the Madrid?
19:13:36 <__ln__> not just a Madrid, but the?
19:14:30 <Terkhen> I had no time to see much yet, last weekend I went back home to pick up more stuff
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19:25:49 <Rubidium> frosch123: any remarks regarding an idea to change action 13 in grfv8 to name the language it overrides, so it can override to multiple languages?
19:28:04 <frosch123> hmm, i also wondered about turning town effects into a translated cargo
19:28:15 <frosch123> so, new effects can be added :p
19:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and we have a similar discussion 3 years from now like about cargo classes? :p
19:31:59 <Terkhen> I'm coding subsidy stuff now, should I wait? right now TE are still used to store stats of delivered cargo
19:32:48 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: everyone said it is not a matter of the implementation
19:33:02 <frosch123> the new schema is the same as the old, just with more clear descriptions
19:33:21 <andythenorth> industry (cargo) newgrfs should *not* be specifying town effect
19:33:33 <andythenorth> I know they kind of have to for hysterical raisins, but it's dumb
19:33:36 <andythenorth> it's improper domain
19:33:44 <andythenorth> town effect is the domain of the town
19:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, but it took very long to get there. and the "we can't remove 'hazardus' issue" doesn't goaway
19:34:32 <frosch123> Rubidium: looks fine
19:34:52 <frosch123> including positioning the code between grfid and numstr
19:35:15 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: does it matter?
19:35:36 <frosch123> when all 16 cc are defined, we add a cc translation table
19:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it does in the sense of "we only have two classes free now"
19:36:04 <frosch123> when all var 40-5e slots are used, we add a variable translation table
19:40:48 <andythenorth> I want to deprecate town effect property for cargos
19:40:58 <andythenorth> I know you won't allow it, but the property is nonsense
19:41:07 <andythenorth> it's the Wrong Way To Do It
19:41:48 <frosch123> it's the way to communicate between newgrfs and gs
19:42:36 <frosch123> it's the job of gs guys to define new ones; newgrfs only have to provide them
19:42:44 <frosch123> so, nothing of your concern :p
19:42:53 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23391 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Allow translating multiple languages with Action 13 in GRFv8
19:44:10 <frosch123> though maybe some cargos would require to supply multiple town effects at once
19:44:33 <andythenorth> possibly I misunderstand
19:45:00 <andythenorth> but how am I (any cargo author, not just my personal idiocy), supposed to set town effects, in order to be correct?
19:45:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: grf authors define cargo classes for refit-communication between cargo-defining grfs and vehicle grfs. we need town effects to communicate usages of cargos between cargo-defining grfs and gamescripts
19:46:06 <frosch123> town effects are not "grow" or "shrink"
19:46:27 <andythenorth> so the problem is, which cargos should get town effect? Some? All? None?
19:46:35 <andythenorth> There's no correct answer
19:46:43 <frosch123> they are services: "food supply", "water supply", "power supply", "waste disposal supply"
19:47:28 <andythenorth> those aren't the concern of the cargo grf though
19:47:37 <andythenorth> for the cargo set author, it's a no win situation
19:47:52 <andythenorth> might as well set town effect for every cargo, which means the property is redundany
19:47:59 <andythenorth> redundany? redundant
19:48:01 <frosch123> wrt. the latter two: we discussed the concept of "virtual cargos", which are produced by industries, but are not transportable with vehicles; they are transported directly to the nearest town
19:48:18 <andythenorth> should I read some logs before speaking more?
19:48:32 <frosch123> so, a powerplant would produce a virtual cargo "electricity" which has town effect "power"
19:49:04 <frosch123> "iron ore" otoh. has no town effect at all
19:49:10 <frosch123> at least none yet defined
19:49:30 <andythenorth> - at least none yet defined
19:49:40 <frosch123> so, if you say you want to set a town effect to every cargo; you make no sense at all
19:49:46 <andythenorth> I'm being asked to predict the future
19:49:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: move "town effect" to industries/houses?
19:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: an industry/house would issue a "town effect" upon receiving the cargo
19:50:13 <andythenorth> town effect is the domain of towns, or houses
19:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so coal delivered to power station or house would yield "town effect: power", but coal delivered to steel mills wouldn't.
19:50:51 <frosch123> houses implicitly convert any cargo they accept into a town effect
19:51:10 <andythenorth> this sounds like a shortcut to how I thought town control would work: deliver cargo to an industry, industry sets a register value, town reads that, decides what to do
19:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: did we ever get anywhere with distributing delivered cargos over all accepting locations, not only the nearest one?
19:51:42 <frosch123> wrt. industries i meant my statement earlier vers similar to eddi's
19:52:02 <frosch123> the industry would even display how much effect it produces
19:52:58 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: not further than talking, I think :)
19:53:55 <Eddi|zuHause> well, YACD might do something like that
19:54:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yacd does solve that, but probably by knowing the destination tile..?
19:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it would be nice to have that behaviour even when destinations are not used
19:59:47 <andythenorth> it was ruled out by Rubidium
19:59:56 <andythenorth> there's at least one forum thread about it
20:00:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and who put him in charge? ;p
20:01:00 <andythenorth> nobody else wants the job? :P
20:02:17 <andythenorth> so 'virtual cargos' ?
20:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> would those go into the "special" cargo class? would they count against the 32 cargo limit?
20:03:08 <__ln__> would it be correct to assume that one can buy a RE+U-Bahn(Berlin) ticket from a DB vending machine?
20:03:42 <Elukka> is yacd still something that might be expected to get further development?
20:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: i'd say yes, but never tried. last time i used the U-Bahn-Berlin we bought tickets from a local vending machine in the U-Bahn station.
20:05:44 <__ln__> at least DB online search finds such routes, so that kind of hints they maybe sell such too.
20:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: berlin was divided into 3 circular zones there, you could buy A (center), A+B and A+B+C tickets valid for all modes of transportation
20:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> where "center" is everything within the "S-Bahn-Ring"
20:07:35 <__ln__> and i think their tageskarte covers all possible zones where a tourist would want to go
20:07:35 <andythenorth> 'virtual cargos' would fail if they're in the 32 cargo limit
20:07:40 <andythenorth> what's the idea of them?
20:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> most touristic locations would be in the "A" zone, yes
20:08:41 <__ln__> but i think the tageskarte was more than A
20:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: the interesting part would be whether the db search will give you a ticket price
20:09:20 <andythenorth> are virtual cargos approximately the same as agreeing to use certain town registers by convention?
20:09:32 <Alberth> andythenorth: so an industry that is a sink in terms of cargoes can produce something eg for a town
20:09:34 <__ln__> it won't, but it won't give a price for the RE alone either.
20:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: iirc we bought an A+B "Gruppentageskarte"
20:09:51 <Alberth> and afaik it can exist above the 32 cargo limit
20:10:10 <andythenorth> so my idea was that a power station would put 'electricity produced' onto a register, which was publicly known
20:10:18 <andythenorth> and maybe all grfs might behave the same by convention
20:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that was apparently cheaper than 6 single tickets (3 persons, two ways)
20:10:55 <andythenorth> virtual cargos come to the same idea
20:11:11 <andythenorth> instead of register index, it's a cargo id, or ctt index
20:11:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're distracting us with your on-topic talk :p
20:11:49 <andythenorth> vehicles in vehicles
20:12:29 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: seems that even the cheaper tageskarte is AB
20:14:50 <__ln__> which comfortably also covers Tegel, but apparently not Schönefeld.
20:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: YACD's last state was that it has performance issues that can only be solved with major philosophy changes (like threading)
20:16:07 <Elukka> kinda made it sound like it's dead :/
20:16:23 <andythenorth> just eats battery
20:16:35 <Elukka> doesn't work very well at least for cargo
20:16:36 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: the problem with Tegel is that the U-Bahn connection never was built, so it's not connected to anything
20:16:51 <Elukka> and, well, since the switch to turn it off for cargo apparently doesn't work...
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20:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> schönefeld is pretty far outside, so that would likely be C
20:19:04 <Elukka> what yacd does is pretty much my #1 feature request for openttd so it's a real bummer if it can't be finished
20:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> CargoDist applied some threading, but that is kinda completely different approach, so not sure if anything can be "rescued" from there
20:20:33 <__ln__> yes, C. the up-to-date map already has greyed-out continuing from Schönefeld to Flughafen Berlin-Brandenburg.
20:20:34 <Eddi|zuHause> YACD gives each packet a destination, while CargoDist is more of a probabilistic algorithm
20:21:09 <andythenorth> yacd is just a waiting game
20:21:12 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: isn't that still like 5-20 years away from being opened?
20:21:29 <andythenorth> offload yacd to the graphics card :P
20:21:37 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: umm, i think it will be opened in June 2012, and Tegel closed at the same time.
20:21:46 <__ln__> dunno about the U-bahn line though
20:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Schönefeld should be accessible by S-Bahn
20:23:27 <planetmaker> last time I was there, it had a s-bahn connection
20:23:43 <planetmaker> but no operating airport ;-)
20:24:02 * __ln__ flies with Scandinavian Airlines, which operates at Tegel
20:30:14 <andythenorth> in a truck set, you'll mostly use the biggest truck?
20:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have YACD/CargoDist you might want smaller trucks, but lots of them
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20:32:43 <andythenorth> also there's really no gain to 4x4 or 6x6 trucks?
20:32:54 <andythenorth> I could cheat TE to give them an advantage hill climbing
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20:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: usually more axles allows more cargo (with same weight per axle
20:40:23 <andythenorth> but more driven axles makes no difference to total cargo
20:40:32 <andythenorth> except in poor traction conditions :P
20:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same problem that snail had with his rack rail
20:41:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it makes almost no difference
20:42:35 <andythenorth> it would be relevant with roadtypes
20:42:38 <andythenorth> but not otherwise
20:42:51 <andythenorth> same reason I've left a number of vehicles out of HEQS
20:43:21 <andythenorth> we should lower co-efficient of friction above snowline in arctic
20:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> be glad: you have an excellent way to reduce the length of the purchase list :)
20:43:28 <andythenorth> and when the tile is desert :P
20:43:56 <nicfer> anyone knows a grf that merges or deletes monorail and maglev?
20:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: practically all grfs do that
20:45:27 <nicfer> and most of them are too clogged with similar trains
20:45:46 <Eddi|zuHause> don't use the 2cc set then :p
20:46:11 <andythenorth> new property that merges 2 vehicles into one buy menu entry
20:46:21 <andythenorth> with new buy buttons
20:46:25 <andythenorth> 'build articulated'
20:46:29 <andythenorth> 'build non-articulated'
20:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: needs a rethink of the buy menu (like select cargo, etc.)
20:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that might also simplify the trams, if you could read that value during the articulated callback
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20:48:32 <andythenorth> most trucks should have the option for trailers
20:49:00 <andythenorth> duplicating every truck for the buy menu is an unpleasant route
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20:49:29 <nicfer> you mean being able to build them like trains?
20:49:45 <andythenorth> I mean a new method
20:49:59 <andythenorth> extra buttons in the buy menu
20:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it already gets complicated if you factor in autoreplace gui
20:50:36 <Zuu> Does GameScripts have a short name domain of its own or must GS short names not conflict with AI short names?
20:51:27 <andythenorth> hmm, autoreplace could have two buttons as well
20:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but what if you want to keep the trailer for the replacement only if the original has a trailer?
20:52:54 <nicfer> I've got an idea for the online content window
20:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if you had a selection similar to the one in the buy menu, you could only replace all with trailer or all without, not mixed
20:53:23 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: logic on auto-replace?
20:53:30 <andythenorth> write scripts, if/else
20:53:56 <nicfer> newgrfs should be differentiated between 'trainsets', 'aircraft sets', etc., so it's easier to search them
20:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, autoreplace could also "guess" the target, like it currently does with cargo subtypes
20:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: you have tags for that
20:54:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: actually autoreplace kind of...doesn't
20:54:55 <andythenorth> at least in my tests :)
20:55:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well you're not doing it right :)
20:55:15 <andythenorth> HEQS with new, common subtypes still fails for auto-replace
20:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> make a bug report?
20:56:04 <andythenorth> also - wrt cargos - we could 'remove' hazardous for YACS
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20:56:16 <andythenorth> i.e. YACS is a spec that grfs conform to or don't
20:56:39 <andythenorth> as the game spec is somewhat unopinionated about cargos
20:58:12 <andythenorth> ECS has a bit defined for hazardous, but treat YACS as subset of ECS
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21:17:22 * Rubidium wonders what he ruled out ;)
21:17:38 <andythenorth> round-robin distribution of cargo to accepting industries
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21:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> random topic: maybe nml could ignore the values of colour indices 0xD7..0xE2 when determining whether it's the dos palette? that way, artists could set them to other colours for easier drawing
21:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> (or we add some ImageMagick or GIMP script that replaces those colours in the Makefile)
21:51:28 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: What's wrong with using shades of gray for that purpose?
21:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: we need a way to separate colours that should be kept "as is" from colours that should be recoloured.
21:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: in a way that is generic enough for all vehicles
21:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> indices 0xD7..0xE2 are "magic pink"
21:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. never used in real sprites
21:54:01 <Hirundo> Is there no colour range so ugly that you'll never use it anyway?
21:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> GermanRV uses "normal pink", the Dutch set proposes to use the fire cycle
21:56:05 <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> random topic: maybe nml could ignore the values of colour indices 0xD7..0xE2 when determining whether it's the dos palette? that way, artists could set them to other colours for easier drawing <- sounds like a good suggestion
22:13:52 <andythenorth> why can't artists just man up and draw the damn cargos? :P
22:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it goes against a fundamental design principle behind CETS: never duplicate work that you can handle by scripting :p
22:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate blitzquitters!! :p
22:23:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23392 /trunk/src/script/api/script_list.cpp: -Fix: [NoAI] assigning 'null' to an AIList element to remove it didn't work
22:25:11 <frosch123> that missed "wired"
22:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there's another dozen words that are also commonly misspelled
22:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> like s/toe/to/ at the end of a word
22:36:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "'russian' hacker of US waterworks was no hacker at all, but an engineer who logged in while on vacation"
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23:03:43 <__ln__> if i need to find a linear mapping matrix on the usual/natural bases for T(x,y,z)=T(x-z,y), is that as simple as calculating T(1,0,0) etc. and placing the results in a matrix?
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