IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-21
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00:44:35 <FFLaguna> Why do subways take up above-ground spaces? :(
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00:52:14 <Elukka> i think the game doesn't support real subways
01:08:43 <Mazur> There are no below-ground stations in Transport Tycoon DeLuxe.
01:09:09 <Mazur> But you can build almost all track underground.
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06:31:08 <Terkhen> good morning
06:33:24 <peter1138> hello good sir
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07:04:25 <planetmaker> moin
07:04:30 <andythenorth> hola
07:04:38 <andythenorth> and also ciao
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07:10:18 <Zuu> elo and ood bye ;-)
07:10:33 <planetmaker> :-) helo Zuu
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07:30:19 <lugo> Eddi|zuHause2: i like the idea of that fence patch very much, but i for one couldn't contribute anything useful to that thread so no activity there doesn't mean that it isn't interesting
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08:12:49 <Eddi|zuHause> we might need an installer for these "stupid" mac folks...
08:13:13 <planetmaker> yes. But all other folks do have an installer
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08:17:39 <z-MaTRiX> hi
08:17:40 <z-MaTRiX> :)
08:17:50 <planetmaker> hi
08:17:50 <z-MaTRiX> hah coolness, plant looks white in IR
08:17:54 <z-MaTRiX> :)
08:18:41 <z-MaTRiX>
08:18:48 <z-MaTRiX> like on some pics here
08:19:38 <planetmaker> I think you mentioned that yesterday, yes :-P
08:19:58 <z-MaTRiX> just tried it now
08:20:04 <peter1138>
08:20:08 <peter1138> ^ HDR done badly
08:21:55 <planetmaker> it's not a photographic impression...
08:22:56 <peter1138> hmm?
08:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: you realize that "white" is just an illusion suggested by the developed photo. just like black/white film
08:23:54 <planetmaker> the colour contrast is different in different parts
08:24:07 <planetmaker> but it's not necessarily a bad image
08:24:34 <z-MaTRiX> well i have webcam
08:24:36 <z-MaTRiX> :)
08:24:43 <Ammler> planetmaker: linux has installer?
08:24:56 <planetmaker> it's called package manager
08:25:03 <z-MaTRiX> installer?
08:25:06 <Ammler> but not made by openttd :-)
08:25:09 <z-MaTRiX> well it can be installed using a bashscript
08:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: mac has an app store :p
08:25:27 <z-MaTRiX> perlscript anaconda or binary executable
08:26:08 <planetmaker> peter1138: I'd not have made the sky that dark, granted. And the 2nd attempt also looks better from that guy
08:27:35 <peter1138> it ends up too noisy, and too saturated
08:27:47 <planetmaker> mostly the latter
08:28:01 <planetmaker> <-- better
08:28:10 <peter1138> it ends up looking like multiple pictures pasted together, heh
08:29:30 <planetmaker> well... HDR _is_ multiple pictures pasted together ;-)
08:29:37 <peter1138> true :p
08:29:39 <z-MaTRiX> ah i have found my long lost 1W uv led
08:29:52 <z-MaTRiX> was searching it about 14 month
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08:39:03 <planetmaker> z-MaTRiX: you really care to search months for a 1 or two dollar item which is readily available cots?
09:08:25 <FFLaguna> Is it possible to set the flow of time slower in-game?
09:08:44 <FFLaguna> Like... trains, planes, and automobiles travel at the same real-time speed, but the date progresses more slowly?
09:08:54 <MINM> nope, sorry
09:09:23 <FFLaguna> So not much chance for multi-day maps, then
09:09:37 <MINM> though I say that's a pretty good idea, I myself kinda wish for that too
09:11:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well... there's about a dozen daylength patches :p
09:12:33 <FFLaguna> Hmmmm
09:12:53 <FFLaguna> Any suggestions on a good daylength patch, then?
09:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> a good one would have ended up in trunk by now
09:13:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's near impossible to provide a good one
09:14:37 <FFLaguna> Oh :(
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09:15:57 <lugo> whatever was integrated in Chills Patch Pack worked like charm for me
09:16:17 <lugo> whatever daylength patch i mean
09:16:38 <lugo> i only used multiplactors 2x or 3x though
09:18:34 <FFLaguna> If I patch in a daylength mod, such as this one , and I'm the server host, is that good enough? Or do my clients need the same patch, as well?
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09:19:01 <planetmaker> clients need the same
09:19:20 <planetmaker> as soon as something changes how the game progresses, all people need the same patched version
09:19:31 <FFLaguna> Thank you
09:30:54 <z-MaTRiX> planetmaker<< actually its $10+ :) but everything will be found if i throw out unneded things
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09:57:38 <z-MaTRiX> :)
09:57:39 <z-MaTRiX> In essence, the optical pickup is an electronically steered and stabilized microscope which is extracting information from tracks 1/20 the width of a human red blood cell while flying along at a linear velocity of 1.2 meters per second
09:58:06 <z-MaTRiX> (cd drive)
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10:54:42 <z-MaTRiX> hah
10:54:43 <z-MaTRiX>
10:56:10 <z-MaTRiX> 20megapixel+
10:59:11 <z-MaTRiX>
11:00:19 <peter1138> cheap :)
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11:13:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23046 /extra/website/frontpage/templates/frontpage/development.html: [Website] -Change: Amend development page by adding information on AI development and expanding on NewGRF development
11:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD seriously dislikes overwriting the grf file and then not using reload_newgrfs
11:28:58 <planetmaker> does it?
11:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it reads invalid sprites and occasionally crashes
11:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and the makefile doesn't recognize changes to
11:34:09 <planetmaker> yes... by default it only depends on *.lng in the lang dir
11:34:25 <planetmaker> I guess that needs adding, too. Or is that added in
11:35:03 <planetmaker> like %.grf: $(shell ls lang/*
11:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> dbg: [grf] Unknown StringID 0x00D0 remapped to STR_EMPTY. Please open a Feature Request if you need it <--- not sure what that means
11:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: has this line:
11:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause> %.lng: src/table/CETS_Tracking_Table.tsv $(GENERATE)
11:38:55 <planetmaker> hm. I see. But the grf won't depend on it as it doesn't find the lng
11:39:35 <planetmaker> try adding %.grf: ...
11:39:37 <planetmaker> as well
11:40:03 <planetmaker> hm. no. it'sm ore convoluted
11:40:27 <planetmaker> I'll look into it. I have an idea. But can't test right now
11:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have no idea how those string warnings happen...
11:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> pushed my changes now, so if anybody with a clue clicks around the purchase list and finds a sensible scheme why this happens, please tell...
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13:15:18 <Belugas> hello
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13:19:48 <planetmaker> hello Belugas
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13:43:30 <Belugas> sir rich maker ;)
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14:24:35 <z-MaTRiX>
14:24:42 <z-MaTRiX> heres a cool mirrorless DSLR
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14:42:37 <peter1138> erm
14:42:45 <peter1138> where would i find a :S
14:46:52 <Belugas> i do not believe in mirrorless dslr. dunno why, just that it does not feel... right
14:46:58 <Belugas> mirror = optics
14:47:05 <Belugas> mirrorless = electronics
14:47:12 <z-MaTRiX> # whereis
14:47:12 <z-MaTRiX> /lib64/ /usr/lib64/
14:47:21 <Belugas> can fail, does not have same quality as mirrors
14:47:34 <z-MaTRiX> Belugas<< mirror is only used for your viewfinder in DSLR
14:47:44 <z-MaTRiX> that is skipped
14:47:48 <z-MaTRiX> and not clicking
14:49:02 <Belugas> viewfinder is the most important part! i am not going to shoot using the lcd, ever
14:49:08 <z-MaTRiX> in this case mirror is a bottleneck
14:49:11 <z-MaTRiX> it will fail
14:49:24 <z-MaTRiX> and prevents accurate autofocus
14:49:37 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: How do you want to show the track classes when using the simplified rail or a foreign track grf?
14:49:48 <Belugas> with a 100000 cycle? autofocus is not relevant to mirror
14:49:51 <z-MaTRiX> also prevents live-view on your lcd
14:50:05 <Belugas> i have spot on focus with viewfinder
14:50:07 <z-MaTRiX> well they used to advertise 200-300k cycles
14:50:16 <Belugas> live-view is not a proper way to shoot
14:50:27 <z-MaTRiX> i always used live-view
14:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: we could check the presence of railtypes in the switch
14:50:46 <Belugas> you get too far from the picture, you loose accuracy on composing, my opinion
14:50:50 <z-MaTRiX> and these have OLED displays
14:50:59 <z-MaTRiX> that is superior to any LCD
14:51:10 <michi_cc> Or we could just not care and hope players are bright enough :)
14:51:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's the present state of the code :)
14:53:21 <Belugas> live view shold only be used when dealing with small cameras withouth viewfinders, or no dslr, in my point of view
14:53:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: truebrain * r23047 /trunk/src/network/core/config.h: -Documentation: silly typo in comment
14:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> one problem currently is that the additional purchase info text does not get displayed in the prototype announcement (unless that has been changed recently and i missed that)
14:54:10 <planetmaker> what's the issue with railtypes and cets now?
14:54:34 <z-MaTRiX> what do you think? sd or sdhc?
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14:55:08 <planetmaker> given you aquisition rate mentioned yesterday sd is sufficient
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14:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i added the track classes to purchase info text (cb23)
14:55:38 <planetmaker> ah. I see
14:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the question was whether we should hide them, when no relevant track set is loaded
14:55:59 <planetmaker> Yes... adopting that to available RT would be nice (if that was the original question)
15:00:43 <planetmaker> [ STORE_TEMP(rt_var, STR_EMPTY), (LOAD_TEMP(rt_var) == STR_EMPTY) ? (railtype_available("BLUB") ? STR_RT_BLUB : STR_EMPTY), ... ]
15:00:47 <planetmaker> not sure whether that works
15:01:18 <planetmaker> in a switch, like e.g. for CB234
15:01:21 <planetmaker> *CB23
15:02:08 <planetmaker> thus successively going to the least preferred track type
15:03:10 <planetmaker> and I'm missing a ": STORE_TEMP(rt_var, LOAD_TEMP(rt_var))"
15:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are easier ways to do that
15:05:46 <planetmaker> we could probably create a global mapping for certain railtype preference characteristics
15:05:51 <planetmaker> and fill that with the proper strings
15:05:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll think of something
15:06:26 <planetmaker> hm... how many RT do the trains support?
15:06:30 <planetmaker> that many strings we need
15:06:33 <planetmaker> or variables
15:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably just switch between a set of texts for nutracks/dbrails/certs/default
15:07:51 <planetmaker> we need got track sprites for ce-tracks
15:08:11 <planetmaker> or we just vary fences ;-)
15:08:34 <planetmaker> s/got/good/
15:08:36 <planetmaker> damn it
15:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i thought maybe we just use some default tracks, and colour code something like a km-stone
15:09:10 <planetmaker> that's possibly a good idea
15:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in the hope that varact2 for railtypes can get the tileXY-position, so we could display a stone every 2 tiles (like catenary pylons)
15:12:59 <planetmaker> yes and no. We could abuse the pseudo-random bits. which depends on tile position
15:13:12 <planetmaker> and repeats every 4 tiles
15:13:34 <Pinkbeast> Is that guaranteed to remaind the case?
15:13:49 <planetmaker> it's random bits. so: no
15:13:51 <Yexo> they don't repeat every 4 tiles, right?
15:14:01 <planetmaker> it's a somewhat regular pattern iirc
15:14:06 <planetmaker> it's not real-random
15:14:17 <planetmaker> it's really position-dependeant
15:14:34 <planetmaker> but too long ago I play-tested with ser
15:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i really meant a fixed calculation, not pseudorandom
15:14:55 <planetmaker> iirc it's the x or y-coordinate's last bits
15:15:14 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you won't get means to read adjacent rail tiles
15:17:04 <planetmaker> as the argument that that eats way too much cpu is still valid (for every ground tile)
15:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, really, the catenary code already does that
15:18:09 <planetmaker> catenary pylon placement is not newgrf-able
15:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, for colour coding the railtypes that is not necessary. it would be necessary for curvy rails
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16:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there's no equivalent of "{SKIP}" for nml?
16:51:11 <planetmaker> there is {SKIP} iirc
16:51:37 <planetmaker> or doesn't that work for you?
16:52:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not documented here:
16:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause>
16:52:39 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... POP_WORD
16:54:27 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: there's no {SKIP} in OpenTTD anymore
16:56:15 <Prof_Frink> Then where does the {RUBBISH} go when you demolish something?
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17:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: {INCINERATE}?
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17:20:20 <Chris_Booth> evening all
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17:45:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23048 /trunk/src/lang/ (japanese.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
17:45:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: basque - 29 changes by HerrBasque
17:45:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: japanese - 72 changes by nex259
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17:47:03 <Alberth> hi
17:47:51 <LordAro> evening
17:48:21 <LordAro> sorry for the quick exit yesterday, btw - not my fault :L
17:48:31 <TrueBrain> excuses! :P
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17:48:39 <LordAro> i did get your link, but you didn't get my reply :)
17:51:51 <LordAro> (google code-thingy) looks cool, i think i will sign up to this :)
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17:56:24 <Alberth> ok :)
17:56:41 <LordAro> also, "and your first code in an open source project :p" incorrect :P
17:56:58 <LordAro> @rev 21654
17:57:03 <LordAro> dang it
17:57:09 <LordAro> whats the command?
17:57:20 <Alberth> @commit 21654
17:57:20 <DorpsGek> Alberth: Commit by yexo :: r21654 /trunk (5 files in 2 dirs) (2010-12-29 12:19:33 UTC)
17:57:21 <DorpsGek> Alberth: -Add: [NoAI] AITown::IsCity() so AIs can find out which towns grow faster than others (Lord Aro)
17:57:27 <LordAro> ty :)
17:57:33 <Alberth> pure luck :)
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17:58:10 <Alberth> nonetheless, thanks for the patch :)
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17:58:50 <LordAro> oh, and i didn't see an option to set for 'patch', perhaps there is a setting missing somewhere?
17:59:30 <Alberth> iirc you can click at 'defect' to get other options
17:59:44 <LordAro> i didn't see that option
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18:00:11 <LordAro> indeed, i cannot see it now
18:00:26 <Wolf01> hello
18:00:30 <LordAro> hi
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18:02:28 <Alberth> hmm, you are right, it's missing. Must look into that.
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18:07:30 <Zuu> hello LordAro, how is your readme reader going?
18:07:46 <LordAro> getting there, but alberth made me break it again :)
18:08:13 <Zuu> Btw, can players see if a town is a city?
18:08:28 <Rubidium> it's in the caption of the town authority window
18:08:30 <LordAro> it's in the town window
18:08:34 <LordAro> too slow :)
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18:08:44 <Zuu> Ok
18:09:29 <LordAro> and (slightly) because of me, so can AIs :)
18:13:16 <LordAro> oh! a commit by tb
18:14:54 <Alberth> If all is well, you can add patches now :)
18:15:18 <LordAro> indeed, i can :)
18:16:32 <Alberth> weird that they don't add it by default
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18:17:33 <Alberth> evening andy
18:17:54 <andythenorth> hai
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18:24:57 <andythenorth> quak
18:27:52 <frosch123> moin
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18:38:56 <andythenorth> will I get my head down and learn nml?
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18:44:16 <Alberth> not while you get distracted by chat messages like this one :p
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18:52:06 <andythenorth> meh
18:52:19 <andythenorth> can't we discuss things we're never going to code instead?
18:53:49 <Alberth> are you ever going to code a highly configurable industry set?
18:53:57 <andythenorth> specify 'configurable'
18:54:27 <Alberth> where you can specify input and output cargoes by parameters
18:54:42 <Alberth> so a user can build arbitrary chains
18:54:44 <andythenorth> I suggest not
18:54:48 <andythenorth> on the grounds that it will suck
18:55:14 <Alberth> some challenge-oriented people will like it I think
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18:58:47 <andythenorth> so what would happen?
18:59:02 <andythenorth> I can specify coal mine accepts milk and produces sheep?
18:59:52 <Alberth> I'd make simple cargoes like A B C etc, and simple factory graphics
19:01:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, with 32 cargos you could make a industry chain of length 32 :p
19:01:55 <frosch123> 33 actually
19:05:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: if you want to specify in / out cargos for a generic processor, that's more plausible
19:06:13 <andythenorth> I've considered dock / warehouse industries that act as primaries and are configurable
19:06:47 <andythenorth> Alberth: sounds like a mashup of opengfx+ and FIRS
19:06:51 <Alberth> you could make industries that need a chain and produce very little
19:06:51 <andythenorth> why don't you code it?
19:07:13 <Alberth> I might one day, just for fun
19:07:15 <andythenorth> it's OpenGFX+, FIRS *and* manual industries all schumshed together
19:07:23 <andythenorth> you can use FIRS graphics
19:07:31 <andythenorth> there are cbs to customise in / out cargo
19:08:57 <frosch123> now i have it, 32 industrytypes which each produce and accept one cargo, so they form a circle of accepting the cargo each other. finally a 33rd industrytype which produces a random cargo at a very low rate
19:10:37 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23049 /trunk/src/ (industry.h industry_cmd.cpp smallmap_gui.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#4810]: Use the same forest-check for the vegetation-map colour as for nearby station names.
19:11:43 <frosch123> it's even realistic
19:12:37 <frosch123> name the industries like various public authorites and transport different types of mail between them
19:12:59 <andythenorth> 'paperwork'
19:13:04 <andythenorth> 'red tape'
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19:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: man this is annoying... makefile doesn't recognize changes to railtypedefinitions.pnml
19:15:56 <andythenorth> make clean?
19:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but after the 20th time, you run out of swearwords
19:17:34 <andythenorth> what, make clean doesn't work?
19:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> make clean does work
19:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but it shouldn't be necessary
19:18:01 <andythenorth> but it is
19:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it is not
19:18:08 <andythenorth> I have a shell script called makego
19:18:18 <andythenorth> which basically calls make clean && make install
19:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just poorly programmed
19:18:22 <Alberth> frosch123: sounds like the planet of the vogons :)
19:18:40 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: mostly just overly complex
19:18:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: "Passierschein 28 a"?
19:18:53 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's a bit harsh :P
19:19:16 <andythenorth> I felt bad moaning about it so I just standardised a workaround
19:19:17 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: exactly
19:19:35 <andythenorth> make clean takes only a fraction of the build time
19:20:08 <Alberth> I noticed yeah :)
19:20:47 <frosch123> Alberth: i have to book lieing on a desk right next to me for about 1 year. did not read it yet :p
19:20:53 <frosch123> s/to/the/
19:21:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it takes up my precious developer time when i reflexically type "make", get an error, and wonder why that happens, because i just fixed it, then have to remember "ah make clean"
19:21:27 <andythenorth> reflexively type 'makego'
19:21:31 <andythenorth> or just cursor up :P
19:21:35 <frosch123> alias make "make clean && make" ?
19:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: now that's stupid
19:21:59 <Alberth> make it recursively clean ? :)
19:22:05 <andythenorth> that's exactly what I did
19:22:10 <andythenorth> shell script / alias /s
19:22:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you basically break with cets every assumption on how a newgrf is built albeit you complain it doesn't work out of the box. Man. that is annoying
19:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but it's a .pnml file
19:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it should work out of the box
19:23:07 <Alberth> right
19:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and i do think it did work, until you last touched the makefile
19:23:24 <planetmaker> only if cpp can write a dep file when parsing cets.pnml
19:23:28 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: revert the makefile?
19:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: why would that fail?
19:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i hardly ever touched cets.pnml
19:24:19 <planetmaker> so, is it included there?
19:24:22 <planetmaker> the pnml file?
19:24:32 <frosch123> automatic dependencies generally fail when there are intermediate files
19:25:14 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: automatically works only if parsing cets.pnml and its includes can derive that dep
19:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, it's there
19:25:52 <planetmaker> then you're out of luck for today, I'm afraid
19:26:11 <planetmaker> I'll try to look at it tomorrow or Monday
19:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: Makefile.dep is empty for me
19:27:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if that's relevant
19:31:22 <planetmaker> it should be found in cets.src.dep
19:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is
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20:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause> something is wrong with the {{} and {}} codes...
20:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> someone load CETS, and click on "ICE1" (DBAG) or "VT 18.16" (DR)
20:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and then watch the console
20:06:15 <frosch123> {}} is nonsense
20:06:24 <frosch123> it means "\n}"
20:06:33 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm...
20:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ok
20:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> even then
20:06:59 <frosch123> does the console say the grf is broken?
20:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the console says "dbg: [grf] Unknown StringID 0x00D0 remapped to STR_EMPTY. Please open a Feature Request if you need it"
20:07:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but only for those two engines
20:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> which are the only ones which have {} in their axle scheme
20:07:56 <frosch123> then i would complain first at nml :p
20:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't see the beginning of the errors, because it's really a huge chunk
20:11:08 <Wolf01> and if you use only } ?
20:11:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: that won't matter, as {} works properly
20:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just a not really well placed newline
20:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't change functionality
20:12:23 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: recent ottd check strings for invalid \n
20:12:25 <frosch123> and remove them
20:12:29 <frosch123> or so
20:12:37 <frosch123> maybe they complain only
20:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i use it successfully elsewhere in cb23
20:13:12 <frosch123> cb23 allows new lines
20:13:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, which is where this stuff is used
20:13:23 <frosch123> but e.g. vehicle names do not
20:13:57 <frosch123> well, then use grf2html to check what the grf says
20:14:01 <frosch123> for the string
20:14:10 <frosch123> then you should be able to blame nml or ottd
20:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> grf2html is gonna be fun with 25k sprites :p
20:16:33 <frosch123> use the --nodata option
20:16:57 <frosch123> then it does not generate the png and the browser will be fine
20:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> good to know
20:17:15 <frosch123> also opera performs better than e.g. firefox
20:20:49 <andythenorth> I don't think this is a FISH bug:
20:20:54 <andythenorth> I think it's an openttd bug
20:21:15 <andythenorth> I think a varaction 2 is reporting an incorrect value for speed
20:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "have you checked TTDPatch" :p
20:22:12 <Rubidium> ships and aircraft are alike (but not quite)
20:23:09 <Rubidium> andythenorth: try stopping a ship; it won't slow down gradually. It will be simply stopped. Then starting it will start at top speed
20:24:09 <andythenorth> yup
20:24:17 <andythenorth> so...
20:24:22 <andythenorth> how does this get improved?
20:24:58 <Rubidium> when somebody implements realistic ship acceleration?
20:25:06 <andythenorth> hmm
20:25:35 <andythenorth> so is this not just a broken varaction 2?
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20:25:55 <andythenorth> if I stop the ship, the varaction 2 correctly reports speed 0
20:26:05 <andythenorth> but if the ship breaks down, speed is unchanged
20:26:23 <andythenorth> so does a broken down ship keep its speed value, but stop moving?
20:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, my grf2html doesn't understand action14
20:26:29 * andythenorth can envisage that code
20:26:35 <frosch123> but HandleBreakdown sets cur_speed to zero for non-aircraft
20:26:36 * andythenorth should read source
20:26:49 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: trunk does
20:27:14 <andythenorth> if broken down move 0, else move v
20:27:30 * andythenorth has not read source :P
20:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right: Text 0xD061 "Bo'Bo'+2'2'" <0x7B dword> "6,14" <0x7D signed byte> "+Bo'Bo'"
20:28:18 <frosch123> 0x7B is {
20:28:28 <frosch123> so nml fails to properly utf-8 encode those
20:28:47 <frosch123> high-ascii characters are control codes :p
20:28:56 <frosch123> or is that wrong in ottd?
20:29:12 <frosch123> hmm, now i wonder whether they shall not be control codes when using utf-8
20:29:55 * Alberth ponders how 0x7y is a high ascii character
20:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i wondered that same thing...
20:30:14 <frosch123> Alberth: what else?
20:30:19 <frosch123> ascii is 0x20 to 0x7f
20:30:23 <Alberth> it is less than 0x80
20:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> "high ascii" starts at 0x80
20:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> 0x7B is arguably lower than 0x80
20:30:44 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, so, maybe at least a bug of grf2html
20:30:45 <Alberth> and 0x7y < 0x80
20:31:15 <frosch123> yes, thus it is high ascii
20:31:19 <frosch123> > 80 would not be ascii
20:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but what grf2html says roughly coincides with what i experienced in openttd
20:32:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: so they both seem to do the same thing
20:32:33 <Alberth> so I don't understand 'high ascii' apparently
20:32:58 <frosch123> "Finally, characters 7B..7F no longer function as the above formatting instructions, but will display regular glyphs " <- from the specs
20:33:17 <frosch123> so, at least the specs are very clear in this point :)
20:34:49 <andythenorth> what's the nicest order for ship IDs?
20:34:54 <andythenorth> (menu sort)
20:34:58 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ottd code looks correct
20:35:59 <andythenorth> PAX ships, general ships, freight ships?
20:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: nml does not seem to set the utf8-thorn
20:36:29 <frosch123> ok, then it is a nml bug :)
20:37:31 <andythenorth> "nobody cares about /me" :P
20:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> <- what grfcodec says
20:37:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: group by passenger/cargo, and sort by size
20:38:13 <andythenorth> k
20:38:38 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: grf2html also seems to be right :)
20:38:41 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: intro date?
20:38:53 <andythenorth> older ships -> newer ships
20:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if necessary, also group by speed and ocean/canal
20:39:15 <andythenorth> hmm
20:39:16 <andythenorth> that too
20:39:27 <andythenorth> speed you can sort for
20:40:20 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is a nml bug
20:40:39 <frosch123> now, open a ticket and wait respectfully :)
20:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS i group by cargo, traction type and company, then sort by intro date in each group
20:42:35 <andythenorth> river boats before sea boats?
20:42:38 <andythenorth> or vice versa?
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20:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. :p
20:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> one of those
20:45:48 <andythenorth> hmm
20:46:01 <andythenorth> vehicle ferries refit to all cargos
20:46:03 <andythenorth> oh well
20:46:15 <Eddi|zuHause> put them in the middle?
20:46:15 <andythenorth> I'll try something and tweak it if it sucks
20:46:24 <andythenorth> yup, they're going in the middle
20:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> passenger - universal - cargo
20:46:29 <andythenorth> yup
20:46:32 <andythenorth> that's my plan ;)
20:47:08 <andythenorth> could just do it like NARS 2: oldest -> newest
20:47:11 <andythenorth> :P
20:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's the code that sorts CETS vehicles:
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20:47:33 <andythenorth> heh
20:47:36 <andythenorth> proper code
20:47:57 <andythenorth> I always find lambda sorts magical
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20:48:08 <andythenorth> I write them about twice a year, always following instructions :P
20:49:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i hardly ever do not use lambda in a sort...
20:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> who the hell is interested in standard orders? :)
20:53:09 <andythenorth> log tug: end of the list? or middle?
20:53:19 * andythenorth crowdsources
20:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm not entirely sure about this, but:
20:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that _should_ trigger the utf8-encode if any of these 0x7B..0x7F characters are found
20:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but i don't know if nml tries to use these anywhere else
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20:58:30 <frosch123> i do not know either :p
20:59:14 <frosch123> andythenorth: your fish is broken, ship reliability never drops below 98%
20:59:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what they do either
20:59:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: my ships are very well built
20:59:39 <andythenorth> and lovingly maintained
21:02:33 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but with that patch everything is displayed properly
21:03:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23050 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] When vehicles break down, update the image cache after changing the vehicle state to make fish happy.
21:04:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: i am not allowed to close fish tasks :p
21:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "so long, and thanks for all the fish"?
21:06:22 <frosch123> [21:20] <frosch123> Alberth: i have to book lieing on a desk right next to me for about 1 year. did not read it yet :p
21:06:54 <frosch123> s/to/the/
21:07:04 <frosch123> s/Alberth/Eddi|zuHause/
21:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm one of those stupid people that only watch the movie
21:08:20 <frosch123> the book is even the english one
21:09:40 <frosch123> which is troublesome with some authors. e.g. discworld is boring in english as i only get half of the jokes. the disc world "child" books are fine though :p
21:10:57 <frosch123> damn, i forgot the name of the girl
21:10:59 <Rubidium> then I guess I'll wait for "NML the movie" before using it ;)
21:12:01 <frosch123> not every computer program is suited to become a movie
21:12:44 <frosch123> wing command worked well; tomb raider worked less
21:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> SkyOne (i think) produced some discworld tv movies
21:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> The Hogfather, The Colour of Magic, and Going Postal
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21:18:08 <frosch123> weird selection
21:18:55 <frosch123> hmm, otoh. might be the first of each of the "death", "wizzard with two z" and "moist" series
21:19:37 <frosch123> no "mort" is first of death-series
21:21:43 <Wolf01> 'night
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21:26:33 * andythenorth will go fishing, if there's free time
21:26:41 * andythenorth is in a fishing mood
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21:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and i lied with 25k sprites, it's now 34k
21:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and ~20k realsprites
21:32:18 <andythenorth> good night
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22:02:47 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 16M is your limit
22:03:20 <FFLaguna> New WoW expansion announced
22:03:26 <FFLaguna> New race/class/other stuff
22:03:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there was some vague mentioning of a 64k limit
22:03:38 <FFLaguna> Bah, wrong channel
22:03:41 <FFLaguna> And I don't even play WoW
22:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause> FFLaguna: i don't think anybody here cares
22:03:52 <FFLaguna> I don't care either, but some other people will
22:03:57 <FFLaguna> Not meant for this channel :P
22:04:05 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: 64k is the size limit of a single pseudo sprite
22:04:16 <frosch123> i.e. the limit of the complexity of a single varact2
22:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> right now i'm rather worried about the number of concurrently "alive" varact2
22:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if that limit is really 256, then i'll probably hit that
22:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> although there may be a way around that
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22:07:57 <frosch123> if you hit it, you are doing it wrong :p
22:08:38 <frosch123> hmm, connection seems to work again
22:09:30 <frosch123> anyway, using temporary storage you can extent the number of alive varact2 to more than the number of atoms in the universe
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22:16:07 <frosch123> night
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23:38:55 <Mazur> planetmaker already to bed?