IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-11
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05:14:21 <Zmapper> I am trying to find an American Southwestern Desert theme. Do you know of any one that you like?
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05:54:08 <Terkhen> good morning
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06:14:01 <planetmaker> moin
06:19:26 <Elukka> zap
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07:12:12 <|Korenn|> Zmapper: NARS in tropical is currently about the best you can get
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07:13:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23016 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Change: Disable palette animation for pixels with alpha, as the alpha and previous colour information will be lost when the palette is animated.
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07:36:37 <dihedral> good morning
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07:56:18 <planetmaker> Korenn: "...that might motivate the devs to finish..." <-- as you said yourself yesterday: don't rely on it. Do what you can without that. Or take e.g. what michi posted yesterday and build on it. Come up with a nice patch queue
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07:56:40 <planetmaker> it's more than one patch. For sure
07:56:47 <planetmaker> hello dihedral
07:57:08 <Korenn> planetmaker: that's a nudge towards Terkhen to finish his subsidies patch :)
07:57:38 <planetmaker> I know. But the best nudge is "I've done everything, the only thing missing is this piece"
07:58:08 <planetmaker> maybe he even has some preliminary stuff there so that you can build on it for testing purposes. Dunno
07:58:27 <planetmaker> and what michi linked iirc was similar to what t3erkhen said
07:58:28 <Korenn> having stuff finished AND popular request for the feature is even better
07:58:36 <Korenn> and for popular request, people have to play it first :)
07:58:42 <planetmaker> popular request only brings you so far
07:59:07 <planetmaker> we work for the same reasons as you: we have to be personally interested in it and it has to be fun
07:59:17 <planetmaker> popular request is only a very minuscle motivation
08:00:40 <Korenn> sure, but as I understood it, whether or not it makes the game more fun to play is important. And lots of people saying they like it shows that.
08:01:29 <planetmaker> good. And why don't you then find the goal part I suggested similarily interesting?
08:01:30 <appe> morning.
08:01:40 <planetmaker> it's at least as much popular demand
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08:05:02 <planetmaker> The popular demand IMHO is not in question. The only thing missing is an actual implementation
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08:07:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23017 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Add support for resized scrollbars.
08:08:12 <planetmaker> juhu :-)
08:08:33 <peter1138> right, 9:08
08:08:37 <peter1138> i should be in the office
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08:11:39 <planetmaker> :-)
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08:19:16 <Terkhen> Korenn: sadly, the motivation I need is not for finishing the patch, but for coding anything at all :)
08:21:39 <planetmaker> hm :-(
08:23:08 <peter1138> and here i am
08:27:10 <peter1138> a few steps remaining for biggui support :P
08:29:05 <Terkhen> nice :)
08:32:15 * dihedral sends lots of motivation to Terkhen
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08:38:27 <Jesus> hey
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08:41:03 <blathijs> Korenn: Was jij nou Dennis?
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08:43:08 <appe> hm
08:43:42 <appe> something tells me its a bit too hard to make funny grfs to openttd.
08:44:18 <appe> if it was easy, we would have carts with gazillion tonne load, and trains in the speed of light.
08:44:24 <appe> but we want that?
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08:45:05 <norbert79> A Tron look to OpenTTD would be interesting... :)
08:45:15 <appe> oh sweet jesus yes.
08:45:23 <appe> the map would look like a got damn cpu
08:45:30 <norbert79> Aye
08:46:08 <appe> i guess its hard work to acheive that
08:46:15 <norbert79> And the company owners would be CLU-1, CLU-2, etc
08:46:20 <norbert79> :D
08:46:31 <appe> or.. well, at least in a time perspective.
08:46:50 <appe> it would be fantastic to make the trains leave a trail of light
08:47:02 <appe> where speed and profit reflects color
08:47:03 <norbert79> appe: That would some nice effect indeed
08:50:11 <Terkhen> you could always hack it with some wagons :P
08:50:53 <norbert79> Terkhen: I might try some testing with plain screenshots adding the tron-like effect and see how well it might work
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08:51:30 <Terkhen> I think that the NewGRF specs already allow to do really crazy stuff, I would like to see examples :P
08:51:49 <b_jonas> wouldn't smoke be better than wagons?
08:51:54 <norbert79> Terkhen: Sure, I am more have concerns from the look perspective...
08:51:56 <b_jonas> I mean, wagons take up space where other wagons can't move
08:52:15 <Terkhen> yes, that's not as advanced :)
08:52:34 <Terkhen> b_jonas: I think that smoke sprites and smoke effects are fixed
08:52:57 <b_jonas> hmm
08:53:19 <b_jonas> sad
08:54:16 <Korenn> tron would be awesome indeed
08:55:05 <Korenn> you could ship programs instead of passengers, and bits / states / memory as cargo :)
08:55:15 <norbert79> lol, yeah, good thinking
08:55:41 <norbert79> Well, Tron 2.0 had Water, so that's resolved... There were also planes to be seen
08:55:55 <norbert79> the animation of the planes could be the same like in the movie ;-Ö
08:55:57 <norbert79> ;-)
08:56:08 <norbert79> Having it "created" while taking off
08:56:48 <norbert79> you would only see people running, and then jumping up, and the pléane would be created aroiund them
08:57:05 <Korenn> the tracks could be the columns of lights that trains move around on
08:58:07 <norbert79> I should rewatch the movie and create some first sprite tests
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08:58:17 <Korenn>
08:58:22 <Korenn> those for tracks :)
08:58:57 <norbert79> Korenn: Problem arises when player won't use straight bridges, and when slopes hit...
08:59:07 <norbert79> it would look silly...
08:59:11 <peter1138> why am i now associating normal scrollbars and biggui scrollbars with french fries and chunky chips?
08:59:42 <planetmaker> it's not difficult. Most people just prefer realistic (for certain definitions of 'realistic')
08:59:50 <planetmaker> hm, I'm behind time
09:01:24 <norbert79> Korenn: regular tiles would look like the normal ones except for the fact, that it would be just a glassy -black looking one, with neon lights around each corner, and not grassy tiles would be the same, but instead of seeing grass growing you would see the neon first dimming, and being brigther with each step...
09:01:38 <norbert79> maybe you could avoid the dimming part
09:01:49 <norbert79> but showing no light, but getting brighter...
09:02:06 <norbert79> I mean the neon-light only
09:02:41 <norbert79> hmm, it might not look as good as I assume... Maybe no lighting at all, just a plain-glassy looking tile, that's it
09:04:36 <appe> i like what you are doing.
09:05:07 <norbert79> light's shall only be used for buildings, and for showing tracks imho... Just planning appe, just playing with ideas... :)
09:05:10 <norbert79> for now
09:05:21 <appe> love it
09:05:22 <appe> make it
09:05:42 <b_jonas> maybe it's the tracks itself that should light up
09:05:55 <norbert79> b_jonas: And buildings of course, like in Tron 2
09:05:59 <b_jonas> Fehér Klára's sci-fi novel has tracks like that
09:06:11 <Korenn> I'd guess the terrain makes or breaks the idea. So probably need to draw and code that first :)
09:06:13 <appe> i can make the midi music for the tron maps
09:06:24 <norbert79> b_jonas: Well, if designed, I think sticking to Tron 2.0 Grid look would be the standard
09:06:25 <appe> already know how to play the solar sailer theme.
09:06:26 <appe> :D
09:06:30 <b_jonas> lighting up in red for a distance behind a vehicle so that the vehicle behind it knows when you get too close to it
09:06:31 <Korenn> perfect candidate to replace toyland
09:06:58 <norbert79> Korenn: I don't want to have it replacing anything, not everyone loves the Tron look anyway :)
09:07:09 <planetmaker> we still need nice stations (airports, road stops, rail,...) for toyland climate
09:07:14 <norbert79> Korenn: You could also develope a Star Trek or Star Wars look too... :)
09:07:28 <Korenn> lol, I don't mean as a permanent replacement ;)
09:07:45 <appe> i do
09:07:51 <appe> toyland is useless
09:07:54 <norbert79> I like Toyland
09:07:56 <norbert79> :P
09:08:14 <norbert79> The trees which only makes my eyes hurt...
09:08:24 <norbert79> at least using the original ones
09:08:35 <norbert79> but in general I like it
09:08:43 <norbert79> reminds me of Revolt
09:10:10 <b_jonas> a star trek look? with faster-than-light vehicles?
09:10:24 <norbert79> no
09:10:35 <norbert79> b_jonas: If you ever seen Star Trek 1 - The movie
09:10:44 <norbert79> or some scenes from TNG or VOY
09:10:48 <b_jonas> and depots should look like the Tardis
09:10:54 <norbert79> you could remember that on Earth it's the same
09:11:02 <b_jonas> because they're bigger on the inside
09:11:03 <norbert79> just having more ICE like trains
09:11:18 <norbert79> why not Doctor Who's telephone booth? :)
09:14:38 <Korenn> There was an effort to introduce a lego (brickland) terrain a couple of years back
09:14:46 <Korenn> don't know if it ever resulted in a usable grf
09:15:03 <planetmaker> not that I know
09:15:17 <planetmaker> the "problem" with all these endeavours is: it's really lots of work
09:15:42 <b_jonas> I'm fine with grfs changing temperate
09:15:44 <planetmaker> it's not dozens of sprites. But it's hundrets of sprites at least
09:15:49 * peter1138 would like an option for AIs to have an old-style generated name
09:15:56 <b_jonas> keeping its realistic style
09:16:07 <planetmaker> peter1138: that's easy... the AI supply their names themselves
09:16:13 * peter1138 doesn't want an AI called "StreetTraffic" governed by "Frank/2"
09:16:17 <peter1138> planetmaker, yes, i don't want that :)
09:16:39 <planetmaker> peter1138: just suggest that to the AI authors with a list of applicable names
09:17:10 <peter1138> there's a name generator already, why should there be a list? heh
09:17:19 <planetmaker> I'm sure people like Zuu will implement that. Maybe even in his superlib
09:17:28 <planetmaker> well. Or name generator
09:17:33 <peter1138> i don't see why it has to be the AI implementing it :S
09:17:56 <planetmaker> why not?
09:18:11 <Yexo> peter1138: if an AI doesn't provide a name OpenTTD will generate one for it
09:18:17 <peter1138> ok
09:18:31 <peter1138> so i want an option to disable that call
09:19:16 <Yexo> if you modify AICompany::SetName (in src/ai/api/ai_company.cpp) to always "return true" without executing the AIObject::DoCommand that's exactly what'll happen for all AIs
09:19:16 <planetmaker> hm, Yexo, can I sweet-talk you into converting another recolour sprite?
09:19:22 <Yexo> sure
09:19:47 <planetmaker> toyland/toyland-1178-gui-recolor.pnfo
09:20:05 <dihedral> 'generate' a name for the ai? based on what - i.e. would the name vary between games?
09:20:12 <peter1138> hmm, the "pin" icon makes window captions the correct height
09:20:13 <b_jonas> I wanted to build an iron ship, found that the dock is just too far from the steel mill to accept steel, so I wanted to add a truck to feed it, but it turns out that the truck station just next to the dock already makes the dock accept steel, so the feeder isn't necessary
09:20:21 <peter1138> the closebox doesn't :P
09:20:31 <peter1138> that gives me a clue where to start ;)
09:21:39 <peter1138> except the code is the same :S
09:22:18 <appe> im still hooked to this tron idea
09:22:25 <appe> if you make the tron grfs, ill make the music.
09:22:29 <appe> im actually already on it.
09:22:35 <b_jonas> So now I'd like to find a rail station sprite approperiate for the extending the station to reach the steel mill
09:22:42 <b_jonas> Probably a crane
09:22:48 * appe loves the idea of being on a train from copenhagen, making midi music about trains.
09:22:48 <planetmaker> hm... appe, can you generate also sound effects?
09:22:55 <appe> absolutely.
09:23:04 <planetmaker> openttd misses a sound set which is gpl
09:23:13 <appe> gpl?
09:23:17 <planetmaker> license
09:23:34 <appe> ah
09:23:35 <appe> what
09:23:41 <appe> whats used now?*
09:23:44 <planetmaker> we cannot bundle the sound set e.g. on cover CDs of magizenes or so
09:23:59 <appe> i see
09:24:03 <planetmaker> it's creative commons sampling 1.0 plus or so
09:24:13 <planetmaker> which excludes commercial use. Which a cover CD would be
09:24:28 <appe> ah, i see.
09:24:32 <appe> i guess i could manage that.
09:24:39 <planetmaker> and having base sets the same license as openttd is quite a good thing usually
09:24:54 <appe> can you provide me with the original sounds as wav, i guess i can make my own versions of the sounds.
09:25:39 <dihedral> we could ask mike tompkins :-P
09:25:51 <planetmaker> <-- that's a list. All wav files are in that repository
09:26:06 <b_jonas> wait, why would you want to bundle the set on cover CDs?
09:26:16 <planetmaker> <-- here
09:26:26 <planetmaker> b_jonas: to have sound at all?
09:26:36 <planetmaker> you want to ship a crippled game?
09:27:12 <b_jonas> I mean, why would you want to sell the game commercially?
09:27:45 <Terkhen> distributing it is not the same as selling it :)
09:28:49 <b_jonas> but if you're not selling it but giving it away for free then that's not commercial, is it?
09:28:51 <appe> good thinking
09:28:54 <appe> ill see what i can do
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09:28:56 <appe> i have all the stuff
09:29:05 <Korenn> < pretty complete
09:29:12 <appe> i might even consider moog'ing the chew-chew sounds.
09:29:17 <appe> that would be awesome^googolplex
09:29:33 <planetmaker> appe: don't care too much of what sounds sound like now
09:29:41 <b_jonas> "moog'ing"?
09:29:46 <planetmaker> Care about where they're used / when they're used
09:29:52 <appe> yes, of course.
09:30:05 <planetmaker> being creative how to represent a sawmill or a truck is good :-)
09:30:12 <appe> though, it's not like im going to make new music. it still have to resemble what it actually should sound like ;).
09:30:44 <b_jonas> as in, record an actual truck?
09:31:00 <appe> no, not really, but stick to what trucks sound like.
09:31:23 <planetmaker> appe: I'm all fine with receiving just the wavs. I'll encode it happily to the sound set
09:31:26 <appe> and 'mooging' is when you deliberatly use analogue hardware to make stuff more personal.
09:31:28 <planetmaker> "just"
09:31:39 <appe> planetmaker: :)
09:31:42 <appe> ill try it out
09:31:42 <b_jonas> I see
09:31:45 <planetmaker> yours is the main work :-)
09:31:50 <appe> ill make a few examples, and youll be the judge
09:31:50 <norbert79> Ok, first test image on the black glass looking base tile, how I imagined it, well, almost (Tron debate :) ):
09:31:51 <norbert79>
09:32:01 <appe> norbert79: that's perfect
09:32:18 <planetmaker> it'd be awesome, appe :-)
09:32:24 * appe np: daft punk - TRON:legacy - recognicer
09:32:49 <planetmaker> in case of doubt where to put stuff: open a ticket on opensfx
09:36:13 <norbert79> appe: Having cheated a bit on the size, but I have applied the NewGRF palette:
09:36:22 <appe> :)
09:36:26 <appe> looks great
09:36:41 <planetmaker> norbert79: I hope you use the DOS palette? ;-)
09:36:52 <norbert79> planetmaker: Shall I? :)
09:36:55 <norbert79> planetmaker: Used Win
09:37:07 <planetmaker> honestly: yes, you should
09:37:15 <planetmaker> it is the technically superior one
09:37:39 <V453000> why are there two palettes anyway?
09:37:40 <planetmaker> openttd internally uses DOS, too. For that reason
09:37:41 <norbert79> Sure...
09:37:58 <norbert79> Well, doesn't look different, have to check the special bytes though
09:38:04 <norbert79> if not accessed any
09:38:09 <planetmaker> V453000: ttd was sold for DOS and for windows. Each had its own palette
09:38:30 <dihedral> i remember that time ^^
09:38:31 <V453000> hm :) so just a historical matter nowadays?
09:38:35 <planetmaker> yes
09:38:46 <planetmaker> nowadays you should forget completely about the windows palette
09:38:50 <b_jonas> even one palette is a historical matter we're stuck with
09:38:51 <V453000> _
09:38:52 <V453000> :)
09:39:32 <b_jonas> but then if the DOS palette is superior, then why does the NewGRF settings default to the Windows palette?
09:39:32 <V453000> well having a palette is good, makes it easier to draw stuff when colours have only N bright/dark versions
09:39:48 <appe> what's the difference?
09:39:58 <appe> is dos grf's not the same type of file?
09:40:01 <V453000> dos has a few more colours afaik
09:40:02 <Yexo> <b_jonas> but then if the DOS palette is superior, then why does the NewGRF settings default to the Windows palette? <_ NewGRFs can specify which palette they use via action14
09:40:15 <appe> V453000: i see.
09:40:23 <Yexo> the majority of the "old" grfs don't use action14 (because it wasn't around when they were created) and they also use the windows palette
09:40:24 <appe> V453000: i remember you, btw.
09:40:29 <b_jonas> Yexo: I see
09:40:30 <appe> V453000: i fucked up one of your collaboration games.
09:40:31 <appe> :D
09:40:39 <V453000> you remember me? :D why?
09:40:46 <Yexo> hence the best course of action is to leave the default at windows for old grfs and make sure new NewGRFs start using the dos palette (and action14)
09:40:57 <b_jonas> ok, thanks
09:41:28 <V453000> Yexo: do new newGRFs use dos palette though? :)
09:41:42 <planetmaker> V453000: depends on what authors use
09:41:46 <Yexo> I believe the opengfx+ ones do at least
09:42:24 <V453000> yes I know, but after the amount of questions "why use DOS palette" in all various channels regarding newGRF making, I am quite unsure how many people actually do use the dos palette
09:42:30 <planetmaker> they do. Or should
09:42:49 <planetmaker> V453000: as long as they use an action14 it doesn't matter much
09:42:50 <V453000> should. :)
09:42:56 <V453000> yes yes :)
09:43:06 <planetmaker> But if you start drawing new sprites there's no reason to use the slightly inferior windows palette
09:43:14 <planetmaker> as it makes no difference really during drawing
09:44:16 <V453000> hm, is it written somewhere though? I found it mentioned in tutorials from George that it is better to use DOS palette :)
09:46:20 <dihedral> hehe - great
09:46:27 <b_jonas> maybe we should just reach up to the main toolbar for real life and fast-forward until openttd and all grfs have 32-bpp graphics and extra zoom levels?
09:46:41 <dihedral> :-D
09:47:07 <Terkhen> that will never happen :)
09:47:25 <Terkhen> some NewGRFs will never be updated, and some authors will choose to stick with 8bpp
09:47:38 <Terkhen> I'll also probably prefer the 8bpp look
09:47:43 <appe> im rather excited
09:47:53 <Terkhen> but I want to try a proper 32bpp base set too :P
09:47:56 <appe> miih.
09:48:19 <b_jonas> a 32bpp newgrf could still have a 8bpp look
09:49:10 <V453000> I think it also is much harder to draw in more colours, so for people like me who want to start with drawing, I think 8bpp will always be the way to go
09:49:20 <planetmaker> b_jonas: cutting the backward compatibility for those newgrfs is not an option :-)
09:49:41 <planetmaker> doesn't mean one cannot use 32bpp, though
09:49:49 <planetmaker> as 8bpp is clearly a subset ;-)
09:50:12 <b_jonas> okay
09:50:52 <dihedral> :-P
09:51:20 <dihedral> can openttd not rewrite access to the 8bpp palette using the 32bpp one?
09:51:42 <planetmaker> dihedral: the 32bpp blitter does exactly that...
09:52:46 <appe> planetmaker: not more then 72 sound files?
09:52:49 <appe> that's odd.
09:53:02 <planetmaker> that's all. yes
09:53:10 <appe> i guessed me a hundred or two.
09:54:32 <appe> i was just thinking. i usually release my stuff under the CC licence
09:54:55 <appe> and as far as i know, you can release stuff with CC+1, as long as you have the artists concent.
09:57:37 <planetmaker> appe: yes, CC+1 is the set's license. But as said, that license is not compatible with GPL. Thus that can't be changed with the current wav files except the few which rb created himself.
09:57:47 <appe> ah, i see
09:57:55 <appe> licences are for schmucks.
09:58:13 <appe> and business men (like me).
09:58:15 <appe> ;)
09:58:16 <planetmaker> yes and no. They're pain and gain
09:58:32 <planetmaker> only the FLOSS license allow this project to live and continue to live
09:58:37 <planetmaker> as everyone can carry on
09:58:53 <appe> free-libre?
09:58:57 <planetmaker> only the license makes it legal
09:59:39 <planetmaker> yes
09:59:56 <b_jonas> so I will have to make multiple short cheap show trains to trainsport coals instead of a single expensive fast train?
10:00:05 <b_jonas> these realistic grfs are interesting
10:01:02 <planetmaker> appe: of course improvements of existing sounds are welcome, I'd much welcome it, if you'd allow (also) use under GPL v2, along of CC+1
10:01:24 <planetmaker> then the transition could be smoothly until all CC+1 only sounds are replaced by dual-licensed sounds
10:01:40 <planetmaker> at which stage we could switch to GPL v2 for the set ;-)
10:01:40 <George> V453000> I found it mentioned in tutorials from George that it is better to use DOS palette :) <- I never wrote such a thing.
10:01:52 <George> I use win palette
10:02:15 <George> also win paletter has 6 less colours
10:02:28 <George> so it is safer to use win one
10:03:23 <V453000> really? :o
10:03:31 <V453000> sorry then :d
10:06:52 <Elukka> is gpl ever not a pain
10:07:18 <Elukka> sounds nice...
10:07:41 <V453000> lol :D
10:07:42 <Terkhen> why is gpl being a pain in the current conversation? :P
10:10:15 <Yexo> <George> so it is safer to use win one <- that only holds true for ttdpatch
10:10:34 <Yexo> in openttd you can mix grfs that use both palettes without problems and the extra colors in the DOS palette are always supported
10:12:16 <planetmaker> well. TTDPatch doesn't support mixing palettes anyway, does it?
10:12:22 <Yexo> no
10:12:41 <planetmaker> thus there it's equally safe to use one or the other palette
10:13:12 <Yexo> if you use the win palette you can convert it automatically to the dos palette and release 2 grfs, if you draw in the dos palette it's problematic since you can't convert the extra colors
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10:15:48 <planetmaker> there's no safe conversion path dos->windows?
10:16:35 <appe> i dont really understand this
10:16:39 <appe> why does one play dos at all?
10:16:50 <appe> why would one, that is.
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10:17:02 <planetmaker> appe: the palette naming has nothing to do really with which OS it's played on
10:17:25 <planetmaker> the naming is purely historical. And as we see here, quite confusing
10:17:31 <appe> aha
10:17:35 <appe> :D
10:17:36 <planetmaker> we could call it palette1 and palette2
10:18:02 <Yexo> <planetmaker> there's no safe conversion path dos->windows? <- how can there be when the dos palette has colors the win palette has not?
10:18:14 <planetmaker> closest match :-)
10:18:26 <Yexo> that is workable, but not completely safe
10:18:41 <Yexo> and that is exactly the reason why nml supports win->dos conversion, but not the other way around
10:18:44 <planetmaker> grfcodec must do something like that
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10:20:31 <b_jonas> hmm
10:20:36 <b_jonas> this train won't go where I want
10:20:57 <b_jonas> ah, I found the reversed signal
10:21:22 <b_jonas> better
10:22:55 <V453000> lol, probably first play, then ask :P
10:27:41 <Korenn> the dos pallette has more colors?
10:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> slightly
10:27:52 <Korenn> then why would you ever use win? ;)
10:28:02 <Eddi|zuHause> hysterical raisins
10:28:08 <Korenn> damn raisins
10:28:17 <Korenn> especially the hysterical ones!
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13:13:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23018 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Fix (r14004): Pass bottom of dropdown item rather than bottom of dropdown window.
13:16:30 <Belugas> hello
13:17:08 <Terkhen> hi Belugas
13:17:12 <Belugas> ho... a commit by peter1138...
13:17:17 <Belugas> hi sir Terkhen :)
13:18:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23019 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Support resized company colour icon in dropdown lists that use it.
13:22:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23020 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Codechange: Vertically centre caption text if the caption height is taller than the text.
13:22:55 <planetmaker> nice
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13:57:14 <peter1138> Your script made an error: arith op - on between 'null' and 'integer'
13:57:29 <peter1138> on?
13:57:51 <peter1138> (is it normal for AIs to fail? heh)
13:58:59 <Pinkbeast> It is not unprecedented in my experience.
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14:08:37 <Yexo> some AIs fail more than others
14:09:38 <Belugas> damned...
14:09:51 <Belugas> revert to old AI!
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15:54:30 <nirox> Hi! Picked up OpenTTD some days ago with couple friends and got some question. Have googled my ass off, but can't find a proper answare if its possible to change town/city names on a running game. There is a "greyed" rename button when you select a town/city, but no info howto enable it.
15:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not possible in multiplayer
15:56:21 <nirox> Ok, thats explains it
15:57:14 <nirox> And another question. Is it any working server queries (PHP etc) aviable? Found couple lib's, but they are outdated and couldnt get them work.
15:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure why... there's no technical reason against it
15:57:47 * planetmaker knows only one. Which is old but not outdated
15:57:54 <planetmaker> it's called openttdlib
15:58:06 <Terkhen> hmm... the admin network does not do that?
15:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the admin network is only an interface, you still need a lib to access it
15:58:48 <planetmaker> Terkhen: that's a port to query the game. But that doesn't make it (directly) available to a website
15:58:55 <nirox> Is admin network documented so im able to use it without too much costume making?..
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16:00:02 <planetmaker> hardly. You can look for joan which is a java lib to access it
16:00:27 <planetmaker> and there's libottdadmin
16:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc there have been some attempts, not sure what ever became out of those
16:01:09 <planetmaker> beyond the proof-of-concept with joan I've not seen anywhere a working implementation
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16:01:54 <Terkhen> hmm... but the admin network gives enough information, even if no library makes use of it yet, right?
16:03:47 <nirox> looking on OpenTTDlib atm. was trying it earlier but found something more about it now
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16:15:10 <KenjiE20> over at coop I used openttdlib to parse info out, and it's still running for all the servers we have up, I don't remember tweaking it either
16:16:21 <KenjiE20> and yes Terkhen the port would give all the info, though there's afaict there's a bug with companies atm
16:16:32 <KenjiE20> -there's
16:16:47 <dihedral> oh - i was hilghlighted :-S ops
16:16:59 <dihedral> fat lot of good that is, if you do not even see you get highlighted
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16:17:04 <KenjiE20> lol
16:17:08 <dihedral> why the f* do i configure highlights then
16:17:14 <z-MaTRiX> hi guys
16:17:18 <dihedral> if the stupid thing does not even let you know you got one
16:17:19 <dihedral> grr
16:17:23 <KenjiE20> dihedral: it was a challenge to do at the time? :p
16:18:17 <Terkhen> is that bug reported?
16:18:24 <KenjiE20> I reported it yes
16:18:45 <nirox> I found a way to rename city/towns. Save on server->open as client->rename->save->open .sav on dedicated
16:19:18 <Terkhen> ok :)
16:19:34 <dihedral> nirox, if you need anything regarding the admin network or openttdlib, feel free to send me private messages, however i will not answer until tomorrow ;-)
16:19:37 <KenjiE20> yup, that's our usual "botch-borked-thing-from-mp" that we do too :p
16:19:43 <dihedral> bye bye
16:20:10 <nirox> dihedral: nice. will look into your lib abit first. like to play around with stuff like that when i have time
16:20:57 <KenjiE20> you can prod me about the php lib too, since I set up the coop ones, I can poke in there for reference :)
16:21:22 <nirox> First thing i see is that i think my webserver needs some changes
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16:26:17 <nirox> Are you using Cache?
16:28:20 <z-MaTRiX> do you like chips?
16:28:55 <KenjiE20> err
16:29:02 <KenjiE20> I think so yes
16:29:16 <KenjiE20> it only does newgrfs iirc
16:30:17 <nirox> Using example.php as starter now. With cache disabled but still it got error about missing cache class. added require the file and now im getting another error "Cannot use object of type stdClass as array in"
16:30:43 <nirox> <?php echo $info['name'] ?> is on the line error refers to
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16:35:29 <nirox> whoop, got it working with converting object to array
16:38:00 <KenjiE20> yeah, just checked mine
16:38:10 <KenjiE20> it's $info->name
16:38:48 <nirox> Adding "$info = (array) $info;" after "$info = $openttd->getInfo();" converted it to array
16:40:15 <KenjiE20> $info = $openttd->getnfo(); $info->name for me
16:40:24 <KenjiE20> but whatever works
16:41:01 <nirox> Yes, but there was more strings to edit also, so fastes was to convert then rename all :P
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16:42:35 <nirox> Do you have the Sigma.php file?
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16:42:53 <KenjiE20> nope
16:43:59 <nirox> hm, its a template package from pear. can grab it from their webpage. just playing around with the example*.php files
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16:52:14 <nirox> What money attribute are you using kenji? dollar, euro ..
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16:57:42 <KenjiE20> aparrently I didn't
16:58:42 <nirox> Trying to calculate the currency. But dunno what the game uses..
16:58:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23021 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Support resized square and warning icons in NewGRF selection window.
16:58:49 <KenjiE20> credits
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17:00:07 <nirox> Found currency table. But its not correct with actually ingame numbers..
17:00:46 <KenjiE20> in game is credits, or whatever's set in openttd.cfg iirc
17:00:59 <peter1138> base currency is £ ;)
17:01:15 <peter1138> nah, it's just a number
17:01:19 <peter1138> £ happens to be 1=1
17:01:44 <nirox> And NOK should be 12x
17:03:03 <peter1138> set up a custom currency
17:03:12 <nirox> But server is £, and client is converting it to NOK. Then webpage is also converting it by query the server and 12x the value. Then the sum is not same
17:04:22 <glx> everything is £ internally
17:05:19 <nirox> So is the query giving a older number then the ones gameclient give?
17:05:27 <nirox> Shouldnt it be the same?
17:07:28 <planetmaker> nirox: every client can have a different currency
17:07:48 <planetmaker> what you see is an int factor of the base money value
17:08:03 <planetmaker> the gui number is nothing the admin port even *can* provide you with
17:08:43 <planetmaker> it has nothing to with age of the number, too
17:08:58 <planetmaker> the gui simply displayes money * currency_conversion_factor
17:09:10 <b_jonas> but the server handles inflation, right?
17:09:11 <planetmaker> whereas the currency_conversion_factor is something which everyone can set
17:09:47 <nirox> Yes i understand that. But here is how it is for me now:
17:10:50 <nirox> Client is set to NOK. Getting company value: 761 024 448kr. Then i have the OpenTTDLib with 12x of the int comming from query the server. That ends up with 761 025 408kr
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17:11:44 <planetmaker> might be from another game tick
17:12:05 <nirox> Game is in pause
17:12:59 <nirox> That differance was 960kr. And was for Company Money. The Company value was having a diff at 566 004kr..
17:13:17 <nirox> same time query at web, and checking client that is on pause
17:13:27 <Rubidium> the server caches some stats
17:14:21 <nirox> Its not that big of numbers, but i love to learn about how stuff works backends ;)
17:17:56 <Rubidium> by the looks of it updates the company value "cache" every 3 game months
17:20:21 <nirox> ok
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17:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there's no variable to check whether a vehicle is loading?
17:24:03 <planetmaker> you have the different spritesets for that
17:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but they don't fit that well into my current scheme...
17:26:20 <b_jonas> is it against the spirit of path based signals if I use one-way path signals much more often than two-way path signals?
17:27:28 <Pinkbeast> I almost always want the one-way ones.
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17:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: no, why would that be?
17:32:22 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23022 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Support resized checkbox and square icons in company colour selection window.
17:33:59 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: well, I think the point of path signals is that you let the path finder manage the trains freely, so it might be best to give them more freedom by using two-way path signals so that if the path finder finds it convenient the trains can reverse.
17:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: no. not at all
17:34:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the pathfinder is generally stupid.
17:34:55 <Pinkbeast> Not at all. Trains take the same _paths_ with block signals, they just take them less efficiently.
17:35:23 <Pinkbeast> So the point of path signals is not at all to "let the path finder manage the trains freely"
17:36:41 <b_jonas> okay
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17:37:14 <Pinkbeast> The "path" in "path signal" refers to the fact that trains reserve a path, not the whole block.
17:38:35 <b_jonas> yep
17:39:13 <b_jonas> but trains are penalized for going backwards on two-way path signals, so if you change one-way to two-way you'll still mostly get the same routes
17:39:27 <Pinkbeast> I'm not sure who you think doesn't know that.
17:41:39 <b_jonas> okay, I won't worry about two-way signals then
17:42:13 <Pinkbeast> I only use them when I explicitly expect trains to pass them (eg entry to a non ro-ro station) or in junctionless bits of line bounded by one-way signals.
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17:44:31 <b_jonas> how about between a ro-ro station and the junction before it, so that trains can go back to the depots attached there?
17:44:49 <Pinkbeast> Nope, I'll put a depot at the exit.
17:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r23023 /trunk/src/lang/ (unfinished/maltese.txt welsh.txt):
17:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: maltese - 42 changes by rkaptu
17:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 8 changes by kazzie
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17:47:41 <b_jonas> okay, thanks
17:48:07 <Wolf01> hello
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17:55:42 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 16 10 E7
17:55:42 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 231
17:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 16 10 E3
17:55:52 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 227
17:55:56 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 16 10 D7
17:55:56 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 215
17:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 16 10 0F
17:56:12 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 15
17:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 16 10 04
17:56:15 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 4
17:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 16 10 03
17:56:20 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3
17:56:46 <Sacro> @base 1 1 1
17:56:46 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Error: '1' is not a valid base.
17:56:50 <Sacro> yes it is
17:56:54 <Sacro> @base 2 2 2
17:56:54 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Error: Invalid <number> for base 2: 2
17:57:02 <Sacro> @base 1 2 3
17:57:02 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Error: '1' is not a valid base.
17:57:06 <Sacro> @base 3 2 1
17:57:06 <DorpsGek> Sacro: 1
17:57:08 <Sacro> :D
17:58:19 <Terkhen> /query DorpsGek
17:58:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like to see your unary positional system that can represent all natural numbers
18:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm doing something wrong or this does work totally different than i expected...
18:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i have this nml snippet:
18:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> recolour_maps = reserve_sprites(1);
18:04:48 <Eddi|zuHause> replace(recolour_maps) { recolour_sprite { 0xD7..0xE3: 0x03..0x0F; } }
18:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and in the vehicle's graphics section i have:
18:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause> colour_mapping: recolour_maps;
18:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't see the intended effect
18:07:20 <b_jonas> in temperate climate, are sawmills set up to be rare? or is there some restriction on their location like with oil refineries?
18:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: no and no
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18:10:01 <b_jonas> I see
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18:30:23 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause:
18:30:34 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: NML is probably not doing that automatically
18:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i see. so i need to add " every_32_days: 2"?
18:34:27 <michi_cc> Hmm, looking at the OpenTTD source it should work with 32 day cb, as the cached value is invalidated in ConsistChanged...
18:35:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda suspect that there's something magical happening with the magic pink
18:35:26 <michi_cc> return 2; actually, which is probably why your colour_mapping is really failing. Callback results need bit 15 set, which return does in NML
18:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> oh
18:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> let me try that
18:38:18 <michi_cc> So according to OTTD source you'd only need the 32 day callback if you want the recolor to change on more than ConsistChanged (refitting, adding/removing vehicles).
18:39:45 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: do you realize that the recolour sprites in nml always use the dos palette?
18:40:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes
18:40:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i used the table on the wiki page
18:40:41 <Yexo> nml forbids you to use 0xD7..0xE2, so I'm curious your code even works
18:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause>
18:40:58 <Yexo> ah, your nml is probably a little bit out of date
18:41:26 <Yexo> 0xD7..0xE2 is the "magic pink", are those indexes allowed in sprites at all?
18:41:33 <Yexo> ie should nml allow these colors or not?
18:41:33 <Eddi|zuHause> r1676
18:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea, i'm really just experimenting whether it works
18:42:04 <Yexo> if you update to nml r1686 it'll give you an error on the recolor sprite
18:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i just picked the magic pink because it's definitely the least likely to be used in the wagon otherwise
18:43:23 <Yexo> I see
18:43:38 <frosch123> [20:34] <michi_cc> Hmm, looking at the OpenTTD source it should work with 32 day cb, as the cached value is invalidated in ConsistChanged... <- that is also stated in cb 2d
18:45:53 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that note is missing from the nml page
18:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i hereby conclude that using magic pink won't work, and need to devise another sinister plan
18:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i should look how germanrv does it
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18:49:59 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: the magic pink might work, I'm just not sure if it's valid
18:50:25 <Yexo> I don't have a clue how to map the magic pink from the windows palette to the magic pink of the dos palette
18:51:19 <Yexo> frosch123: is the magic pink valid in sprites or not?
18:52:01 <frosch123> define "valid" :p
18:52:16 <frosch123> some newgrfs use it for parts which are hidden by other sprites
18:52:33 <frosch123> i.e. when cutting sprites in two pieces for bounding boxes and such
18:52:42 <frosch123> maybe it simplify alignment
18:53:19 <Yexo> nml currently forbids them in recolour sprites
18:53:32 <Yexo> right now I'm wondering on whether it should warn or err when those colors are used in real sprites
18:53:44 <frosch123> grfcodec converts pink between dos and win using a self defined conversion, which tries to allow converting the back and forth
18:54:09 <frosch123> though that of course does not work for all pink, as there are different amount of them in the palettes
18:54:27 <frosch123> Yexo: imo treat them like pure white
18:54:45 <frosch123> though you could actually use them for advanced recolour tricks
18:55:03 <Yexo> that's what eddi tried to do :)
18:55:05 <Eddi|zuHause> germanrv uses indices 137 to 143 in the windows palette
18:55:15 <frosch123> though that would only work when using the dos palette
18:55:24 <frosch123> no idea how ottd converts them
18:55:49 <frosch123> @base 10 16 137
18:55:49 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 89
18:56:04 <Yexo> openttd doesn't remap the magic pink
18:56:15 <Yexo> so index 1 from the win palette is mapped to index 1 from the dos palette
18:56:23 <Yexo> which is pink-> black
18:57:08 <Yexo> says "Don't use the pink colours like the ones marked "WinAPI" in the Windows palette."
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18:57:55 <Yexo> whichs tempts me to disallow the pink colors in the win palette altogether (recolour and real sprites) and allow them for the dos palette
18:57:57 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so that may be (part of) the problem
18:57:58 <frosch123> i guess using them will fail when playing on win95 in 256 colours mode
18:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> currently CETS uses DOS palette, but openttd draws the colours like in the windows palette
18:58:47 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: huh?
18:58:49 <frosch123> Yexo: disallowing them for the win palette sounds good. there is just no well defined conversion to dos for them
18:59:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: the magic pink seems to be replaced by water cycle
18:59:49 <Yexo> as I said, openttd maps the indexes from windows magic pink to the same indexes as dos
18:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> which is at the same place
19:00:23 <Eddi|zuHause> some weird conversion seems to take place
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19:06:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23024 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Codechange: Vertically centre text within a dropdown control.
19:19:54 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... even with real colours i can't get recolouring to work
19:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i conclude: i won't pursue this any further until someone can show me an actually working example of recolouring in nml
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19:50:45 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: most likely your code is correct
19:51:06 <Yexo> there is a bug in nml so that your "return recolour_maps;" is encoded incorrectly
19:51:17 <Yexo> try "return (recolour_maps * 2) / 2;" to see if that works
19:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> would +0 help as well?
19:52:48 <Yexo> nope, nml is too smart for that. It first optimizes out the +0 and than falls in the same bug again
19:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> compiling
19:54:33 <Yexo> recolour_sprite { 0x00..0xFF: 0x33; } <- nice recolour sprite to test if it works, it converts all colors to yellow
19:55:12 <Yexo> might want to try 0x01..0xFF instead to preserve the alpha color
19:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> aye, looks like it's working now
19:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it looks different
19:57:02 <z-MaTRiX> ahah this is a fish
19:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> also the magic pink now shows different
19:58:11 <Eddi|zuHause> something like transparent
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20:03:58 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: if you update nml to r1689 you can remove the workaround with *2/2
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20:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> hmkay...
20:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and which commit do i have to revert to try out the magic pink again?
20:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, you allowed that again
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20:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> nice, everything working!
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20:24:18 <planetmaker> what is the change with the magic pink?
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20:24:33 <planetmaker> I mean... the reason / background?
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20:24:56 <Yexo> see backlog in this channel
20:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: magic pink is at different locations in the DOS/Windows palette and no sane mapping exists
20:25:34 <appe>
20:25:43 <appe> the tiny things that makes my lafe bareable.
20:25:51 <planetmaker> ah, I see. thanks
20:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> nope... still reading "gayzoo" at those links...
20:26:12 <appe> i know, they didnt really think that one trough.
20:31:06 <appe> (it's a desktop screenshot)
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21:21:18 <Wolf01> 'night
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21:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... needs some major refactoring
21:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not in the mood right now
21:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and i probably won't have time the next two days
21:25:19 <planetmaker> the project will live beyond that :-)
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