IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-03
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06:45:46 <Markk> Are you better than last week?
06:46:06 <norbert79> Better, thank you, catched something like a flu, got KO-ed for the last 4 days
06:46:24 <norbert79> I am not recovered full, but feeling ok
06:46:39 <Markk> Good that you're better atleast.
06:46:52 <norbert79> Was a bit early for flu :)
06:47:29 <Markk> Alot of people here catches cold and flu's atm.
06:48:52 <Markk> I've slept well, eaten breakfast, got my morning cigarette (even 4 of them already :x ), got my morning bike ride (from the bus to work, about 15 mins) and also my morning coke. :)
06:49:16 <Markk> So, I shouldn't complain I guess. :)
06:51:40 <norbert79> Do you know the movie Matrix, I assume, right?
06:51:53 <Markk> Would be perfect with some OTTD right now, but I don't think my supervisor would fancy that as much as I would. :)
06:52:10 <Markk> Think I've seen all of them.
06:52:12 <norbert79> And do you also know the movie it was basically based of, Dark City from 1998?
06:52:38 <Markk> Hm, I don't, acctually. :o
06:53:09 <norbert79> Well, during the weekend I had a chance watching it, and I must say it was quite exciting and interesting for me
06:53:30 <__ln__> Better watch the Director's Cut though.
06:53:50 <norbert79> __ln__: I must say I was impressed
06:54:53 <__ln__> But that Matrix would be based on Dark City... I don't think that's possible.
06:55:16 <norbert79> __ln__: Ehm, shall I come with pages, which compare both movies? (DC - Matrix 1)
06:55:24 <norbert79> There are tons of similarities
06:55:51 <norbert79> and you can feel on Episode 1, that it was extraordanary, while 2nd and the 3rd episode kinda sucked
06:57:37 <__ln__> norbert79: I know, but the premiere of Dark City was only 13 months before the premiere of Matrix.
06:58:05 <norbert79> __ln__: Sure, but 13 months are a lot of time
06:58:18 <__ln__> Which IMHO is a short time to copy the ideas, write a script, shoot, do a lot of special effects, and have it released.
06:58:38 <norbert79> __ln__: Nah, you would be suprised...
06:58:56 <norbert79> __ln__: Besides, the main focus was on bullet time
06:59:48 <norbert79> either way the Watchowsky brothers could gather a copy of the screenbook of Dark City any time
06:59:50 <__ln__> norbert79: While you're at it, you could also watch ExistenZ, the third movie from the same era with a sort of similar theme.
07:00:00 <norbert79> __ln__: Now you made me curious
07:00:20 <norbert79> __ln__: I watched the 13th Floor too, which also was used by the Watchowsky brothers
07:00:32 <__ln__> Oh yes, that's the fourth.
07:00:34 <norbert79> Let me check ExistenZ
07:00:45 <norbert79> 13th floor rocked too :)
07:01:49 <norbert79> Hah, found some though on outnow.ch
07:02:32 <norbert79> I think I have seen this, or at least I can remember having seen it on German television once
07:02:43 <norbert79> I remember the controllers
07:03:35 <norbert79> I should rewatch it again... Thanks for the tip __ln__
07:06:23 <norbert79> __ln__: Basically if you recall the end of Matrix 2, you remember a scene where Neo disables some sentry robots in real life with the same method he used within the Matrix. That was the point, where I stopped watching Matrix, but if you also recall Dark City, you remmeber the main character doing the same, yet there was at least an explanation to that how he was able doing so. Yet that scene is also an exact proof of copying Dark Cit
07:06:23 <norbert79> y, but it was used at the worst part of the story...
07:07:15 <__ln__> I've been trying to forget Matrix 2 and 3 because they sucked so much.
07:08:03 <norbert79> __ln__: So does everyone :))
07:08:13 <norbert79> __ln__: Yet the scene with the candy and the girl was fun :D
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08:33:29 <devilsadvocate> z-MaTRiX: one day as 1 day in game would be impossible to play with
08:34:26 <devilsadvocate> and what about construction? would you wait for a month for your first track to be laid?
08:34:44 <norbert79> devilsadvocate: That would be quite a challenge :))
08:37:17 <b_jonas> as long as you still have a fast-forward control...
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09:32:54 <appe> seriosly, wouldnt it be nice as a parameter?
09:33:33 <appe> where the setting goes from normal (plus fast-forward), slow, slower, slowester, slowie mc'finnegan and realistic
09:34:01 <appe> you dont have to change track completion
09:34:15 <norbert79> peter1138: I would also call it 'real time' instead
09:34:22 <appe> simply change the ratio between city growth and game speed.
09:35:55 <peter1138> one tick every ~ 19 minutes
09:35:59 <peter1138> that would be painful
09:36:47 <appe> you guys always use the fast-forward button?
09:37:13 <norbert79> appe: it's fast enough for me already
09:37:37 <norbert79> appe: In Single I tend using the 'Pause' often
09:42:22 <V453000> I use pause only when debugging some signals tbh
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10:35:20 <papa> why do i get Erro:failed to find agraphics set?
10:35:32 <papa> i installed openttd 1.1.3 on ubuntu using a .deb from the site
10:35:32 <z-MaTRiX> because you dont have one ?
10:36:38 <papa> no_sound.obs ogfxh_tropical.grf opntitle.dat orig_win.obg
10:36:40 <papa> ogfx1_base.grf ogfxi_logos.grf orig_dos_de.obg orig_win.obs
10:36:42 <papa> ogfxc_arctic.grf ogfxt_toyland.grf orig_dos.obg
10:36:43 <papa> ogfxe_extra.grf openttd.grf orig_dos.obs
10:36:58 <planetmaker> and where's opengfx.obg?
10:37:17 <planetmaker> why didn't you install OpenGFX via your package manager, too? It should be a recommended install for OpenTTD
10:42:53 <appe> is the standard maps and stuff also made as grfs?
10:44:36 <norbert79> you mean heightmaps and scenarios? Those can be downloaded using the game's built-in downloading feature
10:44:54 <appe> no, the type of map (tropical, etc) that comes with the game
10:45:03 <planetmaker> grf stands for "graphics resource files"...
10:45:25 <planetmaker> a NewGRF of course can totally re-define what "tropical climate" means
10:45:29 <appe> i thought it was used only as additional information
10:45:59 <planetmaker> grf includes the base sets.
10:46:06 <planetmaker> But generally NewGRF is a grf, too
10:46:14 <appe> a newgrf is of course a grf, but the "new" is added to mark that it's not a part of the core?
10:46:39 <Markk> appe: Get back to work now.
10:46:55 <norbert79> Markk: Look who's talking ;-)
10:46:58 <Markk> You shouldn't play with OTTD or yourself right now. :(
10:48:32 <planetmaker> Markk: why should he? It' a public holidy today ;-)
10:48:55 <Markk> And I know he's at work, or atleast should be. :D
10:48:58 <planetmaker> see. Broaden your horizon ;-) :-P (scnr)
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11:00:52 <FHerne> Would it be possible to make a NewGRF for whales?
11:02:28 <planetmaker> I call that impatient ;-)
11:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, there have been way worse :p
11:05:56 <peter1138> is that a ship type?
11:06:35 <peter1138> transports cargo type "jonah"
11:06:57 <frosch123> do whales fly when filled with helium?
11:07:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure they explode :p
11:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (given that you can prevent the gas from escaping in the first place)
11:08:06 <appe> the ratio between the thickness of the plastic and the volume inside it
11:08:14 <appe> would be a bit difficult with a whale.
11:08:21 <appe> unless you are carvy mc'knife
11:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> is that a reference of some sort?
11:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'm still missing "email notification on commit"
12:09:53 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you have enabled email notifications "for any event" ?
12:10:15 <Ammler> might not work for commits, not sure
12:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is exactly the problem
12:12:05 <Ammler> ok, I guess that it only meant for tickets
12:12:29 <Ammler> and you do not want to use rss feed?
12:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd have to set up yet another background program for that...
12:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, exclude refrigerated from mail wagons?
12:18:19 <Ammler> also you know the other IRC channel?
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12:29:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't know any other irc channels.
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12:48:30 <Eddi|zuHause> now it's getting totally weird... it complains that bitmask entries cannot be > 31, but after make clean it works...
12:49:48 <planetmaker> something not re-compiled maybe while it should? Which resulted in an index being >31 while it is not when properly re-generated?
12:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> all i did was change src/cargo_definitions.pnml
12:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, cargo wagons 1870-1910: transport liquids in barrels on open wagons?
13:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> narf, these damn cargo multipliers
13:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> if (defined(GOOD)) { capacity : 2*<cap>; cargo: GOOD } else { capacity: <cap>; cargo: first_refittable }
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13:12:39 <planetmaker> eh? why not just via callback?
13:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: because if first_refittable happens to be GOOD, all capacities are halved
13:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of the GOOD one doubled
13:13:59 <planetmaker> nah, just make an unconditional callback. Which returns the goods capacity and otherwise always the other
13:14:08 <planetmaker> independent of what cargos are defined
13:14:33 <planetmaker> but nml takes care of that
13:14:38 <planetmaker> you just set the units
13:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> cb36 is subject to the multipliers
13:14:57 <planetmaker> nml handles both simultaneously
13:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: anyway, the default behaviour is plain stupid
13:15:35 <planetmaker> I still don't see your issue.
13:16:03 <planetmaker> Just set goods capacity via that cargo_capacity CB and you're done
13:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more complicated than that
13:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> assume a wagon that is refittable to LVST and GOODS
13:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and sets a capacity of 10
13:17:31 <Eddi|zuHause> then by default it carries 10 LVST and 20 GOOD
13:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> now assume an industry set reshuffles the cargo slots, so GOOD comes before LVST
13:17:54 <planetmaker> the action0 capacity is totally unimportant, if you use the CB
13:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> now that same wagon carries 5 LVST and 10 GOOD
13:18:56 <planetmaker> ^ that as target for cargo_capacity CB and it always should work
13:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but then i have to know _all_ cargo multipliers
13:20:06 <planetmaker> you don't care about them. You set the capacity
13:20:17 <planetmaker> 20 goods. 10 other units
13:20:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but i want to care about them
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13:21:21 <planetmaker> why do you want to care about them?
13:22:56 <planetmaker> for example to avoid the issue you complain about
13:27:02 <chats> can someone please help me i am trying to get ttd to run on my 64 bit vista system i can install it but it wont let me build anything
13:27:38 <planetmaker> start in 1950 and don't use NewGRFs
13:27:58 <Terkhen> chats: what error do you get?
13:28:03 <planetmaker> If you use NewGRFs: make sure you start at a date where the NewGRFs supply vehicles
13:28:32 <chats> i see i tried to start at 1850 for a longer game sorry i am not to good at this
13:28:44 <supermop> should ogfx + vehicle sets supply earlier vehicles?
13:28:55 <planetmaker> it should not (yet)
13:29:41 <supermop> didn't tto have a few from the 20's, so that when you started in 1930 they were there already?
13:30:07 <planetmaker> yes, one can start 1920+
13:30:09 <supermop> i was testing my grf in alpine/north america/whatever the other day
13:30:28 <Terkhen> supermop: IMO OpenGFX+ should supply earlier vehicles, yes
13:30:38 <Terkhen> as soon as I get nice sprites for earlier trucks :P
13:30:39 <supermop> i didnt realize it bc i'd never played alpine before (i only had tto as a kid)
13:30:54 <supermop> but i had nothing but the passenger boat when i started
13:30:58 <chats> thankyou for the help been wanting to get this game again for years
13:31:41 <supermop> i did manage to build a nice ferry network while i waited for trains to be invented, so that I could build a train station to see if it worked...
13:38:50 <Terkhen> I hope monday is going fine for you :P
13:39:40 <supermop> ooooh grf is working!
13:39:49 <Belugas> so far yes , thanks :) bad wether, but who gives a shit wne woking inside ;)
13:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: err... is the makefile creating the grf twice?
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13:45:01 <planetmaker> it's calling nml twice
13:45:15 <planetmaker> once with -M --MT and once with --grf
13:48:57 <Eddi|zuHause> because i was getting the warning twice
13:49:15 <Eddi|zuHause> what does -M and -MT do?
13:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and might that be the reason why changing cargo_definitions.pnml does not immediately get recognized?
13:55:11 <Yexo> planetmaker: there is no reason to call nml twice
13:55:46 <Yexo> you only need to recompute the dependencies when the final nml file has been changed, and at that time you also need to rebuild the grf
13:56:59 <planetmaker> I need to recompute dependencies when one pnml file or (if used) one of the graphics source list files changed
13:58:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i suppose we should not allow fish in a mail wagon
13:59:51 <planetmaker> Yexo: alternatively I'd have to get rid of the option to do a separate dependency check - which is bad, if you remove a dependency. As then make will fail and not re-generate dependencies as it should
14:00:18 <planetmaker> (now dependencies are not used / read during dependency generation)
14:00:25 <Yexo> <planetmaker> I need to recompute dependencies when one pnml file or (if used) one of the graphics source list files changed <- but if one of those files changes, you also need to recompile the final grf
14:01:03 <Yexo> I forgot about removing dependencies
14:01:14 <Yexo> perhaps ignore the output from nml during depcheck?
14:01:27 <planetmaker> hm, probably a good idea
14:02:05 <Yexo> maybe not, what if nml fails to generate dependencies due to a bug in the nml code?
14:02:46 <planetmaker> but then make already failed
14:02:54 <planetmaker> but yes, we'd not know why...
14:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> perhaps a --quiet option to nmlc?
14:04:37 <peter1138> V453000, "Unfortunately there is one thing in OpenTTD to remember - the depot counters are ... weird" < bug report?
14:05:00 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: good idea, added to issue tracker as #3106
14:05:05 <V453000> I think it is reported already
14:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it's not the depot counters that are off
14:05:31 <peter1138> (and the screenshot doesn't make sense, but if you're using invisible things, then i guess it's hard to see)
14:05:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically fs#3569
14:05:58 <Eddi|zuHause> bounding boxes for shortened vehicles are still full length
14:06:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (affects turning point in curves, reservations, etc.)
14:07:15 <peter1138> iirc, curve speed was always based on number of wagons, not length
14:07:27 <peter1138> (not necessarily right ofc)
14:07:37 <supermop> do only special types of fonts work in ottd?
14:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> curve speed is based on number of turns in the vehicle chain
14:07:42 <V453000> that would be odd, shorter wagons would automatically slow down
14:08:08 <supermop> whenever i set a custom font i just get a generic sans serif that doesnt look anything like it
14:08:13 <V453000> as Eddi says, but the problem is that you dont "know" the length when the depot says something else
14:08:28 <supermop> whether i use .ttf or .otf
14:08:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem only shows if the last vehicle is (significantly) shortened
14:09:30 <Eddi|zuHause> "cigarette smoke contains polonium-210"
14:09:55 <V453000> well, obviously are :(
14:10:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "the issue was discovered 40 years ago, but publishing was suppressed"
14:12:40 <supermop> is there something I might be doing wrong but am missing?
14:13:04 <supermop> i just put the path to the font in the cfg, right?
14:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: should rather use the font name
14:13:45 <supermop> doesnt work when i do that
14:14:39 <Terkhen> that's how my font options look
14:14:44 <Terkhen> that works on both linux and windows
14:15:15 <supermop> do i need to set the anti aliasing to true?
14:15:25 <supermop> im just playing in 8bpp
14:17:35 <peter1138> yeah, curve speed limits are still based on number of parts, not length
14:17:42 <peter1138> so that "bug" is expected
14:17:59 <peter1138> "does not fit in the station" ... well...
14:19:20 <V453000> the only problem I have is that the depot tells me it should
14:19:36 <V453000> but still, not a big problem
14:20:34 <peter1138> i look at that picture and i see a train fitting into the station...
14:21:52 <V453000> well, then why is the track behind the station occupied
14:22:04 <V453000> but the train does load with normal speed
14:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> reservations are affected by fs#3569, station loading not
14:22:23 <peter1138> is it actually occupied, or not unreserved?
14:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> do you ever listen to what i say?
14:23:06 <V453000> peter1138: the block behind the signal is occupied
14:23:35 <V453000> I can make a larger screenshot to make it visible if you want
14:23:38 <peter1138> looks empty to me ...
14:25:22 <Terkhen> supermop: did you try what I pasted? (font name only, no path)
14:25:39 <supermop> yes, but then i get an error on opening ottd
14:25:53 <supermop> one sec ill screen shot it
14:26:09 * Terkhen just uses whatever name office uses for the font
14:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... internet is acting up today... constantly getting dns errors
14:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: solution, put the invisible engine in front
14:29:23 <peter1138> i guess the problem is the concept of a wagon being on *a* tile
14:29:32 <peter1138> when clearly they are often on two tiles
14:30:06 <peter1138> thus you can enter and leave tiles independently...
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14:35:21 <peter1138> _vehicle_initial_*_fract and _initial_tile_subcoord are scary
14:40:43 <frosch123> V453000: peter1138: fs#3569
14:40:58 <peter1138> peter1138, yes, we know
14:41:19 <frosch123> whenever the last vehicle is <= 4/8 it fails
14:41:42 <peter1138> and to fix it requires messing about with sprite offsets or some such
14:41:53 <frosch123> ironically newgrf specs say that for ttdp short wagons only work at the end of a train, while it is the other way around for ottd :p
14:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "fixing" this must be relayed to the GRFs
14:42:07 <peter1138> probably the same issue in ttdp
14:42:13 <frosch123> (mind that short wagons do not work for ttdp at the end as well for the same reason)
14:42:22 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, every single newgrf that uses shorter wagons?
14:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i mean like a special flag similar to 32px vehicles
14:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> any grf not setting this flag has the old behaviour
14:43:24 <V453000> well, my newgrf is going to have only 0.5 tile wagons for a reason :P
14:43:31 <supermop> Terkhen, that suppressed the error for Transport, but not for Minion
14:43:54 <supermop> and in game the medium font still does not look like transport
14:44:55 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ottd should put the vehicle on the tile which is in the middle of the shortened vehicle, not of a 8/8 vehicle
14:45:00 <frosch123> no need for a flag in a newgrf
14:45:05 <norbert79> supermop: OTF might not be supported by OpenTTD. it's a different format
14:45:08 <frosch123> only for a complicated savegame conversion
14:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but that changes the values for var45 etc
14:45:32 <supermop> that's a shame but understadable
14:45:33 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you mean it fixes them? :p
14:45:49 <supermop> but i dont get why the transport still does not appear
14:46:00 <norbert79> supermop: Guess noone really came up with the need of supporting OTF
14:47:06 <supermop> ah, about 90% of my fonts are otf, never thought about it until now
14:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and how do you intend to handle sprite offsets?
14:47:28 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: they'd depend on travel direction
14:47:56 <frosch123> the bounding box also depends on travel direction
14:48:05 <frosch123> just add two more values to the table
14:48:08 <supermop> ok I just tried the same thing with a true type font 'commercial script' copying the name out of MS Word, and still get that 0x1 error
14:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but the anchor point is always the back (hidden) corner of the bounding box
14:48:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so if the vehicle drives towards you, and you shorten the bounding box, you need to offset the anchor point, where you didn't before
14:49:21 <supermop> likewise with Bank Gothic
14:49:28 <frosch123> Vehicle::x_offs any ::y_offs are already orientation specific
14:50:49 <Terkhen> supermop: Arial works?
14:52:37 <Terkhen> did you download the 9x binary/installer?
14:52:39 <peter1138> norbert79, openttd doesn't support fonts, treetype does
14:52:52 <peter1138> if freetype doesn't support otf... well
14:53:16 <supermop> arial gives no errors, and looks like arial
14:53:30 <supermop> I dont want arial in my game....
14:53:34 <norbert79> peter1138: That arises a question since Freetype does support it
14:55:35 <Terkhen> supermop: then I'm guessing that freetype does not support those fonts, but I don't know why
14:56:08 * Terkhen never had those problems with the fonts that are included with windows, office or linux
14:56:24 <supermop> bank gothic is included with office
14:58:40 <supermop> i am sure i used it to write essays in highschool (before i had any adobe fonts etc)
15:00:04 <Terkhen> it's not included in windows 7 / office 2007, that's all I know :)
15:00:32 <Terkhen> what about writing "Bank Gothic" instead of Bank Gothic at openttd.cfg?
15:01:59 <supermop> it seems like if any .ttf fonts are supported, all of them should be...
15:02:56 <supermop> just tried "Transport Heavy"
15:03:05 <supermop> no errors, but it renders as Arial
15:04:26 <supermop> looks roughly more like tahoma than arial
15:07:08 <supermop> although personally,
15:07:28 <supermop> my goal isnt to have some random humanist san serif font
15:07:56 <supermop> so i'd rather use the default sprite font than arial or tahoma
15:08:49 <supermop> transport is a really good readable bold, so i thought it would work well at ttd scales
15:15:09 <supermop> That said, I am going to give up on the fonts, get some lunch, then finish this grf now that the first half is working
15:16:23 <peter1138> heh, it was a suggestion to see if other fonts would work, not a suggestion as to what to use :p
15:17:04 <supermop> i cant figure out why transport does not work though, as it is also ttf
15:17:17 <peter1138> where can i get it?
15:17:48 <peter1138> might not be the same one mind you
15:19:12 <supermop> there used to be a free version linked from its wikipedia page but i dont see it anymore
15:19:34 <supermop> the designer has also released a ver expensve new version
15:21:25 <peter1138> doesn't work for me either
15:22:17 <peter1138> i get an italic courier as a substitute. lovely.
15:23:03 <peter1138> must be something in the way we open it, cos it works elsewhere
15:23:09 <peter1138> (i assume gnome is using freetype...)
15:24:34 <peter1138> incidentally it puts characters in wrong places
15:25:01 <peter1138> { and } are replaced with 1/3 and 2/3 fractions
15:26:18 <peter1138> dbg: [freetype] Font "/usr/share/fonts/X11/75dpi/courO12.pcf.gz" misses no glyphs
15:36:53 <supermop> i know the fractions glyphs are for miles on highway signs
15:42:36 <peter1138> right, i disabled fontconfig
15:42:49 <peter1138> (and complains that some glyphs are missing)
15:43:43 <peter1138> looks pretty bad too
15:44:27 <peter1138> i dunno if it's used on windows
15:44:42 <peter1138> it's used on *nix as a database of fonts
15:45:05 <peter1138> gah, antialiased fonts are terrible, why did i write that? :S
15:45:51 <peter1138> it needs to be a 2-stage process if there are shadows
15:46:09 <peter1138> maybe i should write that...
15:46:31 <peter1138> there's no % symbol :(
15:50:38 <supermop> maybe it was never cut out for this anyway
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15:56:59 <supermop> also cannot get this replica of the BR Rail Alphabet to work:
15:58:38 <supermop> nah, the one further down
16:00:10 <supermop> these are amateur efforts
16:00:11 <peter1138> even less correct glyphs
16:00:36 <supermop> well its only meant to contain glyphs used on british signs
16:10:29 <supermop> i dont know what to name this station tile
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16:11:47 <planetmaker> I'd call the tile from your last link 'telescope tile' ;-)
16:12:29 <supermop> i have no idea why that guy has fonts and random telescopes together
16:12:41 <frosch123> though, if you want to make it more interesting, you should call it "Station tile #2"
16:13:14 <supermop> ill put something up in a few minutes
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16:59:18 <supermop> hmm grfcodec doesnt recognized dos palette?
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17:01:40 <Eddi|zuHause> depends what you are trying to do
17:02:51 <supermop> i set all these pcx files to the dos palette in photoshop, but it complains when encoding them
17:04:23 <planetmaker> then the error most likely is not in grfcodec
17:04:33 <supermop> il just change them all to win
17:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> more likely your photoshop palette was wrong
17:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec handles dos palettes just fine for everybody else
17:05:45 <supermop> i downloaded it from a link that planetmaker posted
17:06:52 <supermop> anyway, be right back, I have to finally get lunch
17:07:42 <planetmaker> supermop: I've no idea whether that palette works or not - I personally can't test photoshop, but have to trust people who supply the palette info for it
17:08:06 <planetmaker> but it's most likely from either foobar or michi_cc - both of whom I'd assume to know what they do
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17:08:57 <supermop> i think i should stick with win anyway, as that was what i used in previous releases
17:09:21 <planetmaker> changing it for an existing NewGRF mostly is pointless...
17:09:31 <supermop> anyway, thanks for everyone's help this morning
17:09:46 <supermop> i will be back later
17:19:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22975 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp saveload/group_sl.cpp): -Codechange: Do not store Group::num_vehicle in the savegame, but compute it like num_engines on load.
17:20:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22976 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp group.h group_cmd.cpp group_gui.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange: Split group statistics into separate struct.
17:20:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22977 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Rename SetCachedEngineCounts() to GroupStatistics::UpdateAfterLoad().
17:21:42 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22978 /trunk/src/ (group.h group_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange: Replace IncreaseGroupNumVehicle() and DecreaseGroupNumVehicle() with GroupStatistics::CountVehicle().
17:22:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22979 /trunk/src/ (group.h group_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange: Add GroupStatistics::CountEngine().
17:22:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22980 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Add: GroupStatistics for DEFAULT_GROUP.
17:23:42 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22981 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Add: GroupStatistics for the ALL_GROUP.
17:24:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22982 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp company_gui.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Cleanup: Remove CountCompanyVehicles() and use ALL_GROUP statistics instead.
17:25:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22983 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Feature: Display the number of vehicles in the group GUI also for the ALL and DEFAULT groups.
17:25:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22984 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Feature: Display profit icons for groups in the group GUI.
17:26:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22985 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Display autoreplace status in group GUI.
17:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> while you're there: for the "ungrouped" group in the "manage list" dropdown an entry "split into shared order groups"
17:30:06 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22986 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add (r22985): More icons for the vehicle list.
17:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> foreach(vehicle) { group = find_shared_vehicle_with_group(vehicle); if (group == default_group) { group = create_new_group(); } add_to_group(group, vehicle); }
17:45:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22987 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt welsh.txt):
17:45:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: latvian - 54 changes by Parastais
17:45:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: welsh - 122 changes by kazzie
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18:01:15 <michi_cc> planetmaker: I think andy reported that Photoshop somehow saves the palette of PCX files reversed of PNG files. I've extracted the palettes out of PNGs, so which is why it likely fails.
18:02:22 <planetmaker> sounds like a "useful" feature, though :S
18:07:18 <michi_cc> No idea if there even is a formal specification of PCX, but it likely only contains "here by 256 palette entries" anyway :) And storing stuff reverse isn't uncommon, just look at BMP files.
18:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> so which one to do next: additional vehicle text, vehicle graphics variation or vehicle sprite slicing
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18:23:40 <andythenorth> did I miss much?
18:23:47 <andythenorth> it seems quiet here apart from the arguments
18:24:32 <andythenorth> road corners on steep slopes?
18:24:41 <andythenorth> climate aware canal stuff?
18:25:40 <Wolf01> bah, the newmaparray is like herobrine in minecraft
18:25:58 <planetmaker> It's open source!
18:26:11 <Terkhen> andythenorth: full reimplementation of openttd in 3D
18:26:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: climate-aware canals are > 2 years old ;-)
18:27:22 <Terkhen> no, they are only from yesterday
18:28:05 <planetmaker> Only for the TTD base set they're new
18:28:52 * Terkhen never notices that stuff anyways :P
18:29:12 <frosch123> snow-aware buoys are still missing
18:29:20 <frosch123> though i have not seen buoys covered in snow :p
18:29:26 <planetmaker> yes... I don't find the buoy sprite :-)
18:29:54 <Terkhen> neither did I... maybe some ice chunks? :P
18:37:44 <andythenorth> I noticed we're remaking it in 3D
18:37:52 <andythenorth> I believe there are two people forking for it? :P
18:37:57 <andythenorth> should be done in double the time
18:40:54 <frosch123> true, for 32bpp doubling the number of people involved might indeed double the time needed
18:41:17 <andythenorth> it's probably near-geometric actually
18:41:28 <andythenorth> adding four people probably increases the time by 12-16 times
18:41:38 <andythenorth> due to communication ineffciency :P
18:47:07 <andythenorth> is there any sane way to measure 'progress' for ottd development?
18:47:19 <andythenorth> is it even a valid concept?
18:47:42 <Rubidium> progress requires goals, doesn't it?
18:48:19 <V453000> we exchanged rivers for reversing engines :P
18:49:06 <andythenorth> what happened to bump up so much code in 2009?
18:49:32 <planetmaker> noai probably. or yapf. or both :-)
18:49:48 <frosch123> yapf is like 2006/2007
18:50:14 <planetmaker> ah, I meant the path signals
18:50:27 <frosch123> merged on 2008-08-03
18:50:31 <frosch123> easy to remember for me :p
18:50:38 <planetmaker> boah, that long ago?
18:50:44 <planetmaker> hm... significant date for you?
18:51:51 <andythenorth> progress is fewer open bugs? more users? more loc? more features? less features? fewer users? less loc?
18:51:59 <andythenorth> (less / fewer / s)
18:52:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: number of open fs bug tickets is no good measurement. there are too few of them
18:52:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no canonic way to measure progress. only activity
18:52:49 <frosch123> it is between 10 and 30 for years
18:53:10 <andythenorth> activity is measurable how? commits? irc discussions? forum threads? downloads?
18:53:21 <frosch123> though maybe we were at 6 when releasing 0.6.3 or so
18:53:26 * andythenorth has no reason other than curiosity to ask this
18:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: typically number of commits, or number of changed lines, or similar
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18:54:14 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I don't understand your obsession with progress :P
18:54:28 <andythenorth> it's an obsession with whether it is a valid question ;)
18:55:00 <frosch123> i guess number of active developers (with commits in past 6 months) is most interesting
18:55:11 <andythenorth> one day we might find ourselves asking 'is ottd dying' questions (like ttdpatch and many other projects )
18:55:30 <andythenorth> but they might be the wrong kind of question
18:55:36 <frosch123> ok, with that measurement it is dieing :)
18:56:23 <frosch123> since r20000 or so :p
18:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on who you ask, openttd has been dying for years
18:56:44 <frosch123> somewhen last year the number of commits per month dropped from 250 to 100
18:56:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I believe there's a relevant quote about that :P
18:57:10 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: someone said, if ttdp dies, ottd dies as well :p
18:57:22 <andythenorth> does ottd also pay taxes? :P
18:57:55 <planetmaker> it has no expenses, andythenorth ;-)
18:58:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: only sales tax
18:58:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: there are only two certainties in life... :)
18:58:20 <planetmaker> what's the other?
18:58:31 <frosch123> for other stuff it would need to be registered somewhere :p
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19:05:00 <andythenorth> also, in the immortal words of lisa loeb :P
19:05:10 <andythenorth> "they've been dying since the day they were born"
19:05:16 <andythenorth> which is highly philosophical :P
19:05:29 <andythenorth> so is ottd dying? Or is that a tiresome question?
19:05:35 <frosch123> [20:57] <planetmaker> I wonder why :-) <- today the majority of devs are not students
19:06:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: usually the goal of an open source project should be: it dies if noone cares about it dieing
19:07:00 <andythenorth> thereby achieving its destiny....
19:07:03 <andythenorth> as all code dies
19:07:25 <andythenorth> so the 'perfect' open source project is a dead one?
19:07:33 <andythenorth> as in 'complete'
19:08:37 <planetmaker> a game from fossils for fossils?
19:08:37 <andythenorth> complete = perfect = dead
19:08:50 <frosch123> planetmaker: oh, and the development is more spreading now
19:09:04 <frosch123> there is not only the ottd project, but also nml and opengfx
19:09:14 <frosch123> and other grf projects
19:10:19 <planetmaker> that's probably one of the main reasons
19:10:19 <andythenorth> and a gui made in squirrel
19:10:19 <andythenorth> and other ideas that suck
19:10:27 <planetmaker> sometimes I wonder whether things wouldn't become easier to setup if we bundled graphics with OpenTTD
19:10:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, none of the usual ottd devs has a noai project; resp. i guess admiralai has a marginal impact
19:10:52 <V453000> andythenorth: dont you make fun of it, the 3D will bring a whole new wave of people! :D
19:11:14 <frosch123> however, ottd is growing which makes it harder for new guys getting involved
19:11:14 <andythenorth> we don't bundle opengfx?
19:11:14 <planetmaker> it's not part of the main openttd package
19:11:18 <andythenorth> bad out of the box experience
19:11:21 <planetmaker> the installer may install it, but not automatically
19:11:36 <andythenorth> basically, 'batteries not included' :P
19:12:09 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the installer installs it automatically (it's enabled by default the first time)
19:12:18 <andythenorth> we should just buy atari, and ship the original graphics
19:12:25 <andythenorth> if we all bought one share at a time, slowly...
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19:15:20 <Rubidium> planetmaker: we should be
19:15:23 <frosch123> somewhere in newgrf.cpp
19:16:10 <frosch123> *value = _cur.grfconfig->palette & GRFP_USE_MASK;
19:16:40 <frosch123> i.e. the palette which is selected for the grf
19:17:27 <planetmaker> ah... 0D... I grep'ed for 8D
19:20:05 <frosch123> ottd also converts recolour sprites according to the palette setting
19:20:17 <frosch123> so, it really does not matter what the grf does. ottd does it right
19:20:33 <frosch123> (if a14 is right :p )
19:22:20 <Rubidium> just say it returns the palette of the action 14
19:23:34 <planetmaker> hehe... live broadcasting is about 2...3 seconds lag - judging from a comparison of the noise from the nearby stadium and the life stream of the match ;-)
19:23:55 <Rubidium> planetmaker: nice, ain't it
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19:24:03 <Rubidium> enough time to turn on the TV to see the goal
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19:24:24 <planetmaker> Not sure that TV is more...
19:24:49 <planetmaker> I'd not assume it's an officially sanctioned stream ;-)
19:27:59 <supermop> they might have a delay so that they can cut out in case something they cannot show happens
19:28:39 <planetmaker> supermop: we're in Europe...
19:28:46 <planetmaker> not in the US ;-)
19:28:49 <frosch123> supermop: we are in eu ... what pm said :p
19:31:05 <supermop> i imagine there are still penty of things that a european network would rather not show on live tv
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19:31:43 <Rubidium> 'allo 'allo in Germany (but that ain't live)?
19:32:11 <michi_cc> One main reason for live TV deals is still the way to a satellite and back. While the use of cable transmission is increasing, remote TV trucks are still mainly satellite.
19:32:36 <supermop> well its not illegal in the us if someone does something offensive on live tv, but most networks would cut it out anyway to prevent the bad publicity
19:32:54 <planetmaker> yes... and probably "Sky" goes via satellite. And then via <wherever> to a Russian server and back to this town ;-)
19:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a local radio station simultaneously in FM and satellite, you notice a significant delay
19:33:26 <planetmaker> yes... Also national radio is always a second or two behind FM
19:33:30 <Prof_Frink> You notice a delay between FM and DAB, never mind satellite.
19:33:49 <planetmaker> (compared with their stream)
19:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> did DAB2 actually take off better than the last try?
19:35:04 <Prof_Frink> Much better quality than...
19:35:09 * peter1138 still has no DAB kit
19:35:16 <Prof_Frink> R4 Longwave for listening to tms.
19:35:42 <peter1138> alway remember listening to R4 LW on the way down through france
19:36:11 <michi_cc> planetmaker: The satellite portion is mostly the remote truck to base station part, base station to broadcast station respectively cable TV head is increasingly becoming cable based.
19:36:40 <peter1138> the one with the archers on
19:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i'd have thought base station to broadcast station is likely "Richtfunk"
19:37:12 <Prof_Frink> And other things you may have heard of. Like HHGTTG.
19:38:11 <planetmaker> Unless they uplink from the stadion to the satellite directly
19:38:18 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: It was, but for example with cable TV ARD/ZDF switched all remaining radio/satellite links to cable transmission concurrently with HDTV.
19:38:25 <peter1138> mind you there was always 1053/1089 on MW, back in the day...
19:39:04 <peter1138> music on MW isn' very nice thuogh
19:40:03 <michi_cc> Not sure if all DVB-T emitters are wired, but I'd guess during the analog/digital switch the did that as well.
19:43:02 <frosch123> why does the tram need to drive slow?
19:43:09 <frosch123> do the houses move from time to time?
19:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the tram moves more left/right at higher speed. or it needs to wait for people to move away
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19:50:30 <Der_Herr> Hi, is there a console command that allows to generate a map from a heightmap?
19:54:20 <Der_Herr> which means, there will be one soon or more far in future? ^^
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19:58:29 <planetmaker> that highly depends on *someone* writing a patch.
19:59:23 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: in what way is not being able to look at a pro game a limitation by OpenTTD? Why can't you just remove the password from the server, set one on the company and reduce the allowed number of companies to 1? After all, a bot can also change the password of a company
20:00:09 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: for how long has the server been able to change the password of a company?
20:00:21 <supermop> should i bump the version number of my grf to 1.0.0?
20:00:26 <planetmaker> XeryusTC: > 1 year
20:00:38 <planetmaker> it's rather a limitation of ap+
20:00:44 <planetmaker> (if it can't do that)
20:01:08 <supermop> i've rewritten it from scratch, and it uses different tiles now
20:01:17 <XeryusTC> ah, i stand corrected then :)
20:01:25 <Terkhen> supermop: do you use any features that are only available from 1.0.0 upwards?
20:02:02 <XeryusTC> i wonder why you have never notified us in .pro or our private universe about it so that it could actually be fixed so we can have people spectate ;)
20:02:15 <planetmaker> supermop: you do that when you think that the NewGRF is about feature-complete ;-)
20:02:39 <planetmaker> XeryusTC: it is known and iirc it was used for some time
20:02:46 <planetmaker> I don't know why it was not used anymore
20:02:53 <planetmaker> probably no-one adjusting apü+
20:03:00 <Rubidium> XeryusTC: because I know of you having this problem for only about 5 minutes
20:03:29 <XeryusTC> we had a static company password for a while i think, but that got changed for some unspecified reason even though it was actually a working system
20:03:45 <XeryusTC> Rubidium: that question was directed at planetmaker ;)
20:04:25 <Rubidium> also, dihedral has been pretty aware of the patch that introduced the feature
20:04:25 <planetmaker> XeryusTC: yes, I don't know (anymore) either why it was changed ;-)
20:05:18 <XeryusTC> also, in the most optimistic case it would only be changing the command in the the config of ap+, worst case it should only be a few lines i'd recon :o
20:05:23 <planetmaker> XeryusTC: and I assumed that to be common knowledge among those who administer the servers
20:05:33 <planetmaker> XeryusTC: then... go ahead
20:06:18 <planetmaker> (the usual answer, I know...) :-)
20:06:44 <XeryusTC> you do know how good i am at breaking things right? :P
20:07:10 <planetmaker> Or anyone who touches code
20:17:23 <Kogut> Stupid question - I see in code mysterious GB ( StationID station_to_join = GB(p2, 16, 16); )
20:18:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's why, whenever someone asks me what i am doing, i am saying: "i break everything"
20:18:36 <planetmaker> in that case 16 bits starting from bit 16 from variable p2
20:19:37 <Terkhen> Kogut: src/core/bitmath_func.hpp IIRC
20:19:40 <planetmaker> it's a macro function defined... ^
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20:20:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought it's a template function nowadays
20:21:58 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22988 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_changelog.hpp ai_vehicle.hpp ai_vehicle.hpp.sq): -Fix: don't return ERR_UNKNOWN when the vehicle would become too long
20:24:35 <Kogut> @planetmaker, Terkhen - thanks
20:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure how to do length-refitting yet...
20:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> in a generic enough fashion
20:26:18 <Rubidium> Kogut: as the failed preconditions are caused by the code
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20:28:11 <Kogut> OpenTTDDevBlackBook/NoAI/Adding a squirrel function - "To make Squirrel aware of the new function, generate a new Squirrel interface file with squirrel_export.sh. Call that script from within the src/ai/api directory. " - is it required only for new functions?
20:34:12 <Kogut> "To make Squirrel aware of the changes, generate a new Squirrel interface file with squirrel_export.sh. Call that script from within the src/ai/api directory. " - is it possible to do it under Windows? According to wikipedia I need Thompson shell to run it.
20:41:45 <Elukka> driver san fransisco has been distracting me from spritin'
20:52:44 <Kogut> @Rubidium - so now I should move folder with openttd src inside mingw folder?
20:53:34 <Rubidium> Kogut: no, you can just start the shell from mingw and "browse" to the right directory
20:55:56 <Kogut> @Rubidium I am unable to go higher than C:\Users\Kogut\MinGW
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21:02:11 <Terkhen> good night from here too
21:16:24 <supermop> who wants to try it ut?
21:24:07 <supermop> new version of my MLSS
21:24:14 <supermop> writing the forum post now
21:35:33 <Kogut> 5>C:\openttd_folder_kompilacyjny\OpenTTD essentials\shared\include\freetype/freetype.h(34) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'freetype/fterrors.h': No such file or directory
21:43:13 <Elukka> well, this took me longer than it had any right to...
21:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the | view looks like the roof is quite round, which the other views don't really reflect
21:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so make it rather look completely flat there
21:45:36 <Elukka> hmm i did the same thing there i did with the compartment coaches.. it's a bit round but not much
21:46:28 <Elukka> it looks kinda odd completely flat in that view, though it's an easy change
21:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe make that pixel some colour inbetween the brown and the grey
21:48:26 <Elukka> it'll still be equally round on the magic blue side
21:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it's less noticeable there, because the braker's cabin is not "merging" with the roof there
21:50:29 <Kogut> fun, fun, fun! I compiled OpenTTD (according to Visual C++) but there is no exe
21:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Kogut: have you looked in objs directory?
21:51:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: if in doubt about the length of a wagon, check the tracking table
21:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: and if you don't agree with the value given there, check back with me and we discuss a solution
21:51:52 <Kogut> I checked it with *.exe search
21:55:08 <Elukka> well, it agrees with my length
21:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: also, might you be willing to draw another version with open doors?
21:56:34 <Elukka> sure, not sure how it should look though
21:56:39 <Elukka> i guess i'll go stare at dbset
21:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i need something visually changing to devise a scheme how to do loading stages and loaded stages
21:57:44 <Elukka> any idea which way the door's supposed to open?
21:57:57 <Elukka> oh towards the back i think
21:58:31 <Elukka> hm and towards the other end on the other side
21:58:35 <Eddi|zuHause> question is if the other side opens to the same direction
21:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so always to the right
22:03:22 <Elukka> why am i getting the feeling oberhümer is going to say it's too textured :P
22:08:51 <Kogut> I compiled it again, now compiler decided to do sth with ai_foo.cpp files, and compiled this stupid .exe file. Now I have "no available language packs"
22:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to compile the complete solution, not only one subproject
22:11:16 <Kogut> 1>------ Build started: Project: version, Configuration: Debug Win32 ------ 2>------ Build started: Project: langs, Configuration: Debug Win32 ------ 1>Determining version number 2>Generating strings.h 1>Host skryptów systemu Windows firmy Microsoft (R) wersja 5.8 1>Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation 1996-2001. Wszelkie prawa zastrzeżone. 2>Build log was sav
22:11:39 <Kogut> "Build started: Project: langs, Configuration: Debug Win32" <--
22:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds right
22:12:50 <Kogut> maybe I should move generated exe?
22:13:05 <Prof_Frink> "Debug Win32"? Wouldn't that take a while?
22:15:04 <Kogut> langs folder is almost empty (except buildLog and tables subfolder)...
22:18:01 <glx> <Prof_Frink> "Debug Win32"? Wouldn't that take a while? <-- no debug is way faster than release
22:18:55 <glx> Kogut: just press F5 once it is compiled
22:19:13 <MNIM> I think the guy is thinking the compiler debugs win32 itself, lol
22:19:45 <glx> else you need to move generated exe for objs\Win32\... to bin
22:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the 5lu template could use some position adjustment
22:23:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: closed wagon graphics are now in
22:25:43 <Kogut> but it is even more visible that government in is stupid as real government
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22:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: as long as it's only one image, it's actually really simple
22:31:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: just make an entry in the graphics column of the tracking table, and add the file
22:32:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the joy of meta-programming. only the very first instance is actually complicated, adding more later is really trivial (if done right)
22:33:49 <Kogut> well, I compiled openttd, but my change to noai api changed absolutely nothing :D
22:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "Iran gives Belarus 300 Million €" ... and that is news worthy, in times where greece gets like 300 billion €?
22:35:31 <Elukka> perhaps it'd be better if the 4 axle coaches were all one type in game (and it randomly picked a sprite), and 3 and 2 axle coaches would be used for the other types?
22:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yes, that is only temporary
22:36:25 <Elukka> guess i better draw the other ones :P
22:37:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the plan is to have the 3 axle wagons early, and the 4 axle wagons later, basically replacing the 3 axle ones
22:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the D-Zug wagon must get different sprites altogether
22:37:51 <Elukka> in game it looks like the wrong wagon's sprite sometimes overlays the next wagon, or is that just because i don't have that one patch
22:37:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that leaves 2 versions of the 4-axle wagon, one with 70km/h and one with 100km/h (possibly with different running costs)
22:38:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: yeah, drawing is occasionally wrong, not entirely sure why that is, or whether there is a way around this
22:39:50 <Elukka> it looks like the other wagon should go on top
22:39:55 <Elukka> dunno if there's anything you can do about it though
22:40:05 <Elukka> it's less noticeable in motion
22:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause> partially the problem is that the wagon gets longer in - view
22:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be less noticeable if it behaved euclidean
22:41:44 <Elukka> hm. if the length of the coaches is alright, i'll go finish up the mail wagon
22:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> a 10lu mail wagon?
22:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> or a shorter one?
22:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the value in the tracking table is not a realistic one yet
22:42:46 <Elukka> well it looked like it used the same chassis as the 4 axle coaches
22:42:52 <Elukka> haven't really done much work on it yet
22:47:51 <Kogut> Interesting "tower" on the left side
22:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that is the braker's cabin
22:48:26 <Kogut> but why it is elevated?
22:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> before brakes could be controlled from the engine, each wagon needed a person operating the brakes
22:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the braker must have some overview, so the cabin is usually elevated
22:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. to see the engine
22:51:34 <Elukka> "Working in brakeman's cabins was dangerous, especially in winter because the cabins were unheated and draughty and there was little room to move around and keep warm. As a result brakemen frequently froze, sometimes even to death, placing the entire train at risk due to lack of braking power."
22:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> later a closed air pressure line was introduced, first to passenger trains, later to cargo trains. so by changing the pressure in the line, the engine can operate all brakes simultaneously
22:52:23 <Pinkbeast> Um... vacuum brakes?
22:52:59 <Pinkbeast> In a lot of places, air brakes are much later.
22:54:05 <Elukka> but you brits tended to have separate brake vans
22:54:10 <Elukka> rather than a cab on each wagon
22:54:22 <Pinkbeast> On goods trains, yes.
22:54:56 <Pinkbeast> But what I'm saying is that we (like most places) went brakemen -> vacuum brakes -> air brakes because it's a lot easier to make vacuum with a steam locomotive than it is compressed air.
22:55:16 <Eddi|zuHause> cargo trains tend to have less braking power
22:56:08 <Pinkbeast> When's the vehicle in that picture from?
22:56:54 <Elukka> around the turn of the 20th century i think
22:57:30 <Pinkbeast> Huh. We mandated automatic brakes on pax trains in 1889, but I guess that was first.
22:59:43 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did they retrofit those coaches with continuous brakes when the brakeman's cabs started to disappear?
23:00:05 <Eddi|zuHause> don't know. possibly
23:03:24 <Elukka> since they ran well into the 50's... i'd think so
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23:29:50 <Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: the 4 axle mail car is the same length as the passenger coaches, right?
23:30:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no information about that
23:30:41 <Elukka> well, i suppose they would be
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![http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3569/getfile/7525/tl2[1].png](http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3569/getfile/7525/tl2%5B1%5D.png){kind=link}
