IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-31
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00:23:38 <Eddi|zuHause> could enforce unloading before selling?
00:26:11 <Zuu> good idea
00:26:50 <Zuu> but an even better idea is to go to sleep. Good night ;-)
00:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> sleep is overrated
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03:52:47 <Sevalecan> W \o/
04:06:26 <Pikka> isn'tit
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05:40:18 <andythenorth> Pikka: mornink
05:42:28 <Pikka> gday andy
05:43:01 * Pikka just spent 20 minutes searching for something that was tucked under my monitor
05:43:18 <andythenorth> it'll be in the last place you look
05:43:21 <andythenorth> law of physics
05:43:28 <andythenorth> or maybe semantics
05:43:47 <Pikka> or simply common sense
05:44:23 * Pikka afk
05:46:34 <andythenorth> common sense :o
05:46:48 <andythenorth> don't see much of that :P
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06:13:07 <Pikka> there's got to be some somewhere
06:13:21 <Pikka> I'm very impressed by how smoothly rise of flight alt-tabs, incidentally
06:17:02 <peter1138> pardon?
06:22:48 <Pikka> peter1138, most complex 3d games don't alt-tab very smoothly, they take forever to do it and often don't work properly afterwards
06:23:02 <Pikka> rise of flight bounces up and down with no issues whatsoever. so far. :)
06:31:03 <planetmaker> moin
06:35:23 <Pikka> good morning planetmaker
06:37:28 <planetmaker> hello Pikka :-)
06:40:37 <andythenorth> Pikka: wrt yesterday's shenanigans...
06:40:45 <andythenorth> - my plan is to cost balance HEQS + FISH against both default vehicles + pikka world
06:40:50 <andythenorth> with a parameter to switch
06:41:05 <andythenorth> it's got a few issues, but should work
06:46:14 <planetmaker> That's what I do as well. So yes, it works. And hello andythenorth :-)
06:47:55 <andythenorth> so basically there are two cost schemes
06:47:59 <andythenorth> default + pikka world
06:48:10 <andythenorth> how does pikka world vary from default?
06:48:52 <andythenorth> how many axes are there? two? (buy cost + run cost)
06:49:08 <andythenorth> plus pikk* sets have variable run cost
06:49:19 <andythenorth> and vehicles get more expensive as they age
06:49:37 <V453000> never noticed that
06:49:42 <V453000> also hi :)
06:49:49 <planetmaker> hi V453000
06:49:54 <Pikka> I don't know how it varies from the default, I've never considered the default vehicles when balancing my sets :)
06:50:18 <andythenorth> but you know what characteristics your scheme has...
06:50:31 <V453000> hi pm :)
06:50:32 <andythenorth> basically I'm happy to support both
06:50:37 <Pikka> well, sure
06:50:57 <andythenorth> I'm happy to add code for variable running costs + aging as well, which switches on parameter
06:51:54 <Pikka> also, because of the variable running costs, the "official" running cost as it appears in the buy menu is really a guide only
06:52:10 <Pikka> actual running costs will depend on how the vehicle is used
06:52:31 <planetmaker> Pikka: from my tests with various vehicle sets (and I did that in order to allow OpenGFX+ Trains be adjust wrt a number of them) your sets are indifferent wrt purchase costs but a +2 wrt running costs (i.e. a /4 will balance it)
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06:53:55 <andythenorth> can the default setting for a parameter be changed?
06:54:04 <andythenorth> wrt detecting another grf
06:54:17 <Pikka> I don't think so, andy
06:54:20 <planetmaker> <-- my summary of how different sets are balanced
06:54:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, they can
06:54:44 <Pikka> oh
06:54:46 <Alberth> moin peoples
06:54:49 <andythenorth> hola
06:54:50 <planetmaker> that's what ogfx+trains does
06:54:52 <planetmaker> hello Alberth
06:55:02 <Pikka> well, maybe then. you can check if it's not defined and then define it as x?
06:55:13 <andythenorth> have any other authors got coherent cost schemes?
06:55:14 <planetmaker> If it detects a pikka newgrf it will set its own runcosts also to base +2
06:55:20 <planetmaker> yes
06:55:33 * andythenorth doesn't have a coherent scheme - costs don't excite me :P
06:55:45 <planetmaker> well. I just linked the code I use :-)
06:56:12 <Pikka> costs don't excite a lot of newgrf authors
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06:57:55 <V453000> costs are just a matter of slowing the game down really, not changing anything too much I think
06:58:02 <planetmaker> possibly. Though I have the feeling at least half somewhat do care. But that might be selective perception
06:59:09 <V453000> well one thing is care and one is to hope it will change the gameplay to something interesting >]
06:59:10 <V453000> :)
06:59:16 <Alberth> planetmaker: probably just within a single set
07:00:11 <Pikka> indeed V453000
07:01:09 <Alberth> V453000: if you disable breakdown, there is little force to make a careful selection
07:01:16 <andythenorth> variable costs make quite a difference
07:01:19 <Pikka>
07:01:19 <andythenorth> as does terrain
07:01:27 <Pikka> is basically the aim of my set balance
07:01:32 <andythenorth> with YACD + UKRS2 the variable costs make things very very hard
07:01:33 <Pikka> and is what you're breaking, planetmaker :P
07:02:05 <V453000> Alberth: breakdowns are unusable
07:02:27 <andythenorth> YACD encourages running PAX trains barely loaded which causes losses, whereas normally they'd wait for full load + make a profit
07:02:42 <planetmaker> Pikka: I do not want to break your sets - least of all. They're one of the best balanced sets around, no doubt
07:03:41 <V453000> andythenorth: higher costs and """""harder""""" game means only one thing: You have to find "the best" way how to play in terms of profit. The only effect it really has is cutting down the final creativity after you find "the best" way.
07:04:01 <planetmaker> But I wonder how I can make it possible to use different vehicle sets concurrently without dissallowing that and without disagreeing about average price levels more than 100%
07:04:11 <planetmaker> and I still don't have a good solution to that :-)
07:04:27 <andythenorth> V453000: maybe, but finding the 'best' way is the interesting 'problem'
07:04:33 <V453000> yes, certainly
07:04:34 <andythenorth> it's like a puzzle
07:04:50 <andythenorth> basically I like things to 'solve'
07:04:50 <V453000> but with the way how openttd works it is not that hard (in my opinion)
07:05:18 <V453000> yes, sure, but it makes it a game for a goal with the moment when you reach it, you get mildly bored
07:05:22 <andythenorth> yes
07:05:25 <andythenorth> but in the meantime...
07:05:27 <Alberth> yet you see newbies fail at the game :)
07:05:27 <V453000> just like if you "win" some game
07:05:33 <planetmaker> Pikka: and *because* I like your newgrfs I basically started yesterday's discussion with you ;-)
07:05:39 <Pikka> planetmaker; all I'm asking is that until you do have a good solution, don't implement a bad solution :)
07:05:44 <andythenorth> one reason I like new set releases because it gives something new to solve
07:05:46 <V453000> andythenorth: but I can see the point and I agree that it can be fun :)
07:06:07 <andythenorth> I'm holding back vehicles for HEQS so I can do a new release which will require different solutions
07:06:11 <planetmaker> the question is "what is bad"? ;-)
07:06:25 <andythenorth> and the economies in FIRS are also intended to cause new solutions to be needed
07:06:47 <andythenorth> V453000: maybe that idea could influence NUTS design :P
07:06:51 <Pikka> making it so that new players will probably be playing grfs with stats other than those intended is "bad"
07:07:06 <andythenorth> it's also boring
07:07:11 <andythenorth> which is a crime
07:07:48 <V453000> andythenorth: I do not think I will bother too much with costs in NUTS
07:08:33 <andythenorth> it's not just costs - capacity, speed, hp, vehicle life....
07:08:39 <Pikka> V453000, "The only effect it really has is cutting down the final creativity after you find "the best" way." - well, perhaps. but the only way you're going to make it so that there is no optimum solution for a given situation is to give every vehicle in your set the exact same statistics
07:09:07 <andythenorth> V453000: my guess is that you prefer solving routing?
07:09:11 <Pikka> at least with my sets, I strive to make it so that the best solution isn't exactly the same (fastest most powerful vehicle available) for every situation :)
07:09:20 <andythenorth> we're all solving something, otherwise we wouldn't play
07:09:49 <V453000> Pikka: yes, UKRS achieves that _very_ well
07:10:05 <V453000> andythenorth: yes, certainly
07:10:12 <planetmaker> Pikka: but that still would hold true if running costs would be /4 ?
07:10:58 <andythenorth> it must surely?
07:11:08 <andythenorth> otherwise the difficulty setting wouldn't work
07:11:26 <V453000> well not really
07:11:34 <V453000> if you /4 it then all engines might be "fine"
07:11:39 <Pikka> no, not at all. if you quarter the running cost of a vehicle without changing any other stats or the economy as a whole, it becomes more effective
07:11:59 <planetmaker> yes, but all vehicles do so?
07:12:22 <V453000> but that is the whole point I am basically saying, the engines in UKRS for example are very well balanced by their speed, power, TE, so all are usable. Costs do not matter too much (if at all)
07:12:33 * Pikka thinks I may need some props to make this clearer, brb
07:12:46 <planetmaker> :-)
07:13:16 * andythenorth predicts we will discuss cargo payment rate next
07:13:24 <planetmaker> :-D
07:13:48 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I gave a suggestion for that already... yesterday
07:14:04 <Rubidium> it has a dependency though: yacd
07:14:11 <andythenorth> that would be interesting
07:14:19 <andythenorth> I was thinking only of current scheme
07:15:06 <Rubidium> although it might work pretty well without a cd
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07:15:13 <andythenorth> what was the idea?
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07:16:31 <Rubidium> a base fare for cargos, so when loaded you get at least X, a component for the distance with a small difference in w.r.t. speed and a 'surcharge' for 'significantly faster than average' transports within the same class of vehicles
07:16:50 <andythenorth> more realistic :P
07:17:00 <Rubidium> e.g. if you fill the map with maglevs you make less money than when you have loads of (slower) feeder routes
07:17:07 <andythenorth> 'class of vehicles'?
07:17:21 <Rubidium> train, ship, aircraft, rv
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07:17:28 <andythenorth> but not subclasses?
07:17:37 * andythenorth pokes Eddi|zuHause ^
07:17:43 <Rubidium> andythenorth: please not ;)
07:17:46 <andythenorth> bah
07:17:50 <andythenorth> you know it makes sense
07:18:04 <andythenorth> pax should pay more for travelling in a more luxurious vehicle
07:18:20 <andythenorth> and food should be worth more if refrigerated
07:18:46 <Rubidium> why should I care, as customer, that I'm in the fastest noisy diesel engine or in the slowest electric engine (diesel engine still slower than electric)?
07:19:09 <Rubidium> I wouldn't pay extra money to be in a slower train, just because it's the fastest diesel train
07:19:09 <andythenorth> why do people pay 110% more for first class seats?
07:19:13 <andythenorth> it's still just a seat
07:19:42 <Rubidium> leg room etc
07:19:47 <Alberth> the boss pays :)
07:19:52 <Rubidium> less likely to sit with noisy students
07:20:06 <andythenorth> anyway, we can leave subclasses out for now - it's a newgrf thing :P
07:20:45 <andythenorth> Rubidium: how does your proposal vary from current payment?
07:20:50 <Rubidium> andythenorth: although a surcharge component by NewGRFs wouldn't be that different
07:20:59 <planetmaker> hm, nice. Our yesterday's discussion gave me in the German forums a direct comparison with the chief of the MfS - the GDR's internal thought police
07:21:20 <andythenorth> sounds like a godwin-class event :P
07:21:26 <Rubidium> andythenorth: current one is very much speed derived, so fastest vehicle over longest distance == moneys
07:21:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: guess who wrote that article ;-)
07:21:56 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: I think you'll find the answer is: They don't.
07:22:08 <Rubidium> mine would make short routes more profitable due to the base fare
07:22:26 <Rubidium> and longer routes hopefully (much) less profitable
07:22:27 <andythenorth> and also long distance bulk transport would be flatter?
07:22:42 <Rubidium> yep
07:22:49 <Rubidium> depending on how it's all tweaked
07:22:49 <andythenorth> hmm
07:23:00 * andythenorth has distorted view
07:23:06 <andythenorth> I set cargo rates how I want them to be :)
07:23:31 <andythenorth> FIRS is pretty flat for bulk cargos
07:23:48 <Rubidium> the major point is that the speed component of gets mostly ripped out the paid prices
07:23:58 <andythenorth> Rubidium: it sounds like a good suggestion
07:24:11 <Rubidium> except for that surcharge for faster than average vehicles in its class
07:24:17 <andythenorth> would it be backwards compatible (i.e. we keep the current method as option)?
07:24:30 <Rubidium> that'd be the way to go I'd say
07:24:32 <andythenorth> hmm
07:24:33 <planetmaker> hm... ripping out speed? Hm... what's "Class" in that context, Rubidium?
07:24:38 * andythenorth dislikes
07:24:42 <planetmaker> "train", "rv", "plane"?
07:24:51 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes
07:24:57 <andythenorth> if there are two payment schemes, defining a cargo/industry set just got much harder
07:25:00 <andythenorth> double the testing :P
07:25:23 <planetmaker> why, andythenorth?
07:25:46 <Rubidium> this newgrf doesn't work with old cargo scheme: done ;)
07:25:47 <planetmaker> the important thing is that input = output. roughly
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07:26:54 <andythenorth> I don't see how this doesn't increase testing
07:27:01 <andythenorth> testing is already a PITA :P
07:27:16 <planetmaker> :-)
07:27:25 <planetmaker> I most probably broke production anyway :-P
07:29:08 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just say that the NewGRF requires the new cargo scheme
07:29:36 <planetmaker> hm, yes, industry sets usually define cargos and their price properties... so yes, you're right, that'll need additional testing
07:30:22 <andythenorth> every now and then I have the idea that the 'original' ttd stuff should be implemented as a newgrf
07:30:32 <andythenorth> rather than spiralling out advanced settings
07:31:01 <andythenorth> then authors of other newgrf sets have to make a choice how to do stuff, instead of having to support n combinations of advanced settings
07:31:06 <Rubidium> andythenorth: you can't code the whole economy in a NewGRF
07:31:10 <Rubidium> that'd make it way too slow
07:31:21 <andythenorth> sure
07:31:33 <Pikka>
07:31:41 <andythenorth> but some of the stuff - especially industry stuff - is a headache
07:32:31 <andythenorth> Pikka: so if the cargo rates change....what happens to the numbers?
07:33:54 <Pikka> if you quarter all the cargo rates and all the base costs along with the train running costs?
07:34:10 <andythenorth> yes
07:34:42 <andythenorth> 1/4 probably results in losses all round
07:35:23 <Pikka> well if you quarter the cost and value of /everything/, then I guess it all works as before, just with a currency that's worth 4 times as much
07:35:45 <andythenorth> so ultimately we might as well put a factor in front of the currency :P
07:36:08 <Pikka> yes. which you can already do easily enough. it doesn't get us anywhere with the interaction of multiple grf sets.
07:36:31 <planetmaker> ok, I see that point of the shifted balances...
07:36:33 <andythenorth> if I was better at maths...
07:36:40 <andythenorth> there's a common factor somewhere in this
07:36:44 <planetmaker> thanks pikka, that's very illustrative
07:36:46 <andythenorth> it can all be factored out somehow
07:37:03 <andythenorth> I was thinking yesterday of establishing a 'standard'
07:37:14 <andythenorth> based on hauling 100t coal n tiles in a straight line, flat
07:37:22 <andythenorth> and measuring the *profit* not the cost
07:39:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: so using your model, it's trivial for me to break your set with my set
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07:40:19 <Pikka> well, it's trivial for you to provide a vehicle that has better stats than the vehicles in my set and thus makes my set redundant for players looking to build the "best" loco, andy
07:40:27 <Pikka> but there's never going to be any way around that
07:40:49 <planetmaker> of course. That's always feasable. No matter what
07:40:59 <Pikka> except enforcing one person's idea of what a "correct" stat model is :)
07:41:50 <andythenorth> it's also trivial for FIRS to set cargo rates that break your sets
07:41:57 <andythenorth> that may even have happened already
07:42:10 <Pikka> possibly
07:42:19 <Pikka> if you set cargo rates dramatically different from the defaults
07:42:32 <andythenorth> that's likely :D
07:42:42 <andythenorth> hmph
07:42:49 <andythenorth> this is all simple maths, it should be easier to solve :P
07:43:13 * Pikka should try FIRS some time and report back
07:45:46 <planetmaker> hm... so basically the economy settings depend on the cargo rates (well, of course)
07:46:11 <planetmaker> which is basically a difficulty settings
07:46:16 <Terkhen> good morning
07:46:21 <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
07:46:54 <andythenorth> I can't see a clean solution while authors still get to have their own ideas about rates
07:47:03 <andythenorth> this is an issue of proper domain :P
07:47:17 <planetmaker> yes
07:47:30 <andythenorth> but there's no right answer to 'who gets control'
07:47:34 <Rubidium> you need a benevolent NewGRF standards dictator! ;)
07:47:40 <andythenorth> plus, due to backwards compatibility it will never get solved
07:47:44 * andythenorth proposes Rubidium
07:47:49 <andythenorth> hmm
07:48:15 * planetmaker has the feeling that our newgrf 'dictator' is a green amphibian :-P
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07:48:33 <Alberth> While playing with FS#4696 yesterday, I found is this solvable in a simple way?
07:48:46 <andythenorth> ''.join(string.split('benevolent))
07:49:41 * Rubidium rejects andythenorth's proposal
07:50:14 <Alberth> newgrf specs need to be designed better instead
07:50:27 <planetmaker> simple... I'm not sure whether it's easy to fix, Alberth
07:50:43 <planetmaker> the issue is the plane extending over the bound of the hangar
07:51:00 <Alberth> yep, they cheated in the airports :)
07:51:19 <planetmaker> yes ;-)
07:51:25 <andythenorth> Alberth: propose a new design?
07:51:31 <Alberth> so my guess is that you need to change the actual coordinates of the hangar
07:51:37 <andythenorth> I don't know if spec change solves it :P
07:51:43 <Alberth> +plane in the
07:51:50 <Rubidium> Alberth: or just chop the sprite while drawing ;)
07:51:55 <planetmaker> well... ^
07:51:58 <andythenorth> $someone must be good at maths
07:52:05 <planetmaker> sounds the more promising approach
07:52:14 <andythenorth> I think a reference profit would solve this
07:52:23 <planetmaker> if (plain in hangar) { chop plane to hangar tile; }
07:52:32 <andythenorth> i.e. transporting cargo n tiles produces profit x
07:53:34 <Rubidium> planetmaker: you can only chop in | or - direction, but that should solve most of the problems
07:53:37 <planetmaker> that might be an interesting one-step setting for economy, andythenorth
07:53:45 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes, sure
07:53:53 <Rubidium> alternatively change the moment when the aircraft becomes (un)visible
07:54:08 <Pikka> andy: but I think you should be able to make more profit in earlier years, or more profit in later years, or something
07:54:11 <planetmaker> there'll never be need to chop the plane on the backward tile base
07:54:29 <Pikka> also, for arguments' sake, I disagree with your decision about what the reference profit should be. :)
07:54:38 <andythenorth> propose an alternative :P
07:54:39 <Rubidium> in the normal case they drive too far so the plane is hidden by the hangar roof before hiding/parking it
07:54:49 <andythenorth> I see two ways to solve this
07:54:55 <andythenorth> 1) fix the spec
07:54:56 <Rubidium> however, when it's turned it doesn't need to drive that far to at least hide it
07:55:16 <andythenorth> 2) support 'default world' and 'pikka world'
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07:55:41 <planetmaker> yes... but coordinates need to stay invariant under rotation of the airport...
07:55:42 <andythenorth> so either a technical standard, or a convention
07:55:47 <Alberth> Rubidium: that's what I was thinking, so have a custom position with each rotation -> no need for generic rotation mechanisms
07:56:18 <Pikka> andy: well, since it's an artistic and not a technical problem, I don't see how a technical standard is appropriate
07:56:46 <Pikka> as for conventions, my numbers are published and/or available on request and people are free to try and match them if they like. :)
07:57:00 <andythenorth> ++ convention requires no patches :P
07:57:05 <andythenorth> just a lot of griping at people
07:57:10 <andythenorth> griping / encouragement /s
07:57:14 <Rubidium> Alberth: but then the 180 degree rotated would be faster w.r.t. hangar operations
07:57:31 <Pikka> but you can't force people to accept your standard, andy :)
07:57:50 <andythenorth> can I fore them to accept yours? :P
07:58:02 <Pikka> it's unlikely
07:59:05 <andythenorth> can we read the base costs in their grfs and disable ours if we don't like them? :P
07:59:21 <Pikka> planetmaker, just saw your pm, thanks :)
07:59:21 <andythenorth> can a grf agree to delegate base cost setting to another grf?
07:59:29 <andythenorth> i.e. inheritance / interfaces
07:59:49 <Pikka> andy: I don't know about that, but mine disable themselves if a known incompatible grf is loaded
08:00:16 <planetmaker> :-)
08:00:24 <Pikka> (but allow the user to reactivate them on acknowledgement that the mix of grfs is unsupported)
08:00:53 <andythenorth> can a grf connect to my server to check a list of grfs I don't like?
08:01:02 <andythenorth> think that violates the GPL :P
08:01:50 <Alberth> andythenorth: just hate all of them :)
08:02:38 <Pikka> works for me ;)
08:03:38 * Pikka goes to see if I can shoot down that darn balloon this time
08:05:19 <andythenorth> hmm
08:05:50 <andythenorth> s'not really about grfs I don't like :P
08:06:06 <andythenorth> it's about it being hard to play nicely with grfs I *do* like
08:06:28 <andythenorth> Pikka: if you'd just hurry up and do an RV set, the issue would be solved :P
08:07:26 <planetmaker> where are the bandits to steal that set when they're needed?
08:07:37 <planetmaker> :-P
08:08:56 <Alberth> are there airports rotated 90 or 270 degrees?
08:09:24 <Rubidium> I think there might be a test newgrf for that
08:09:56 <planetmaker> Alberth: there's not (yet) afaik
08:10:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the bandits are sulking
08:10:33 <planetmaker> But... a medium-quick test could be made probably
08:10:38 <andythenorth> they are waiting for rv-wagons
08:10:47 <planetmaker> they stole them!
08:10:58 <andythenorth> is rv-wagons even a good idea?
08:11:06 <andythenorth> or does the gameplay of adding trailers just suck?
08:12:12 <Rubidium> Alberth: try
08:13:17 <Alberth> thanks
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08:14:25 <planetmaker> bah... articulated vehicles implementation sucks :S
08:14:34 <planetmaker> or rather their specs
08:15:07 <andythenorth> what sucks about it?
08:15:38 <planetmaker> the articulated vehicle's ID being < 128
08:15:47 <planetmaker> by specs
08:15:59 <planetmaker> which is... big bullshit on part of the specs
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08:17:00 <andythenorth> I thought that was getting fixed?
08:17:14 <andythenorth> isn't it an issue with cb results?
08:17:27 <Rubidium> v8?
08:18:21 <planetmaker> yes... but changing the CB result means breaking existing newgrfs. As bit 7 of the return value is interpreted as "bit set ? reverse view : normal view"
08:18:38 <planetmaker> so... it needs the ominous v8...
08:20:42 <planetmaker> btw... just generally, do you know , Pikka?
08:21:26 * Rubidium wonders how bad it would be to not allow v8 and < v8 NewGRFs to be loaded at the same time
08:21:52 <planetmaker> hm...
08:22:00 <Rubidium> then you might be able do some more drastic things w.r.t. balancing shit
08:22:20 <andythenorth> Rubidium: if v8 swept up some other crap, I would just make all my grfs v8 only
08:22:26 <andythenorth> screw backwards compatibility :P
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08:22:34 <andythenorth> so FIRS might only work with ships
08:22:35 <andythenorth> hmm
08:22:40 <andythenorth> whenever he's mentioned, he arrives
08:22:42 <andythenorth> spooky
08:23:52 <andythenorth> v8 could refuse to load any grf that doesn't implement certain parts of action 14 for starters
08:24:05 <Rubidium> yep ;)
08:24:19 <Rubidium> v8 only supports the DOS palette ;)
08:24:30 <Rubidium> or is that taking it too far? ;)
08:24:35 <andythenorth> no
08:24:39 <andythenorth> that's a correct thing to do
08:24:44 <andythenorth> unless you are trolling me :P
08:24:46 <Alberth> if you break it, break it big :)
08:25:29 <Rubidium> then give it a release and drop pre v7 support mwhahahah ;)
08:25:32 <planetmaker> I'm not sure that making the grf versions mutually exclusive a requirement. But I'd allow the "extra" functionality only if only v8 is present
08:26:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: with v8, vehicle sets could be prevented from setting base cost
08:26:22 <andythenorth> and the range of base cost could be adjusted
08:26:24 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but things like balancing and changes to the economic model require all NewGRFs to cooperate. You better force that ;)
08:26:51 <andythenorth> FISH only adjust base cost because the range is too small to accomodate higher costs without adjusting multiplier
08:26:59 <Rubidium> it'd tie v8 together with rebalancing the game ;)
08:27:17 <Rubidium> hmm, maybe that's a better approach
08:27:26 <andythenorth> plus, we'd know what all the user suggestions were going to be for literally years
08:27:31 <andythenorth> we could write a bot to reply to them
08:27:48 <andythenorth> "wtf you broke my favourite grf"
08:27:54 <andythenorth> could be answered by
08:27:56 <Rubidium> Pikka & andythenorth: could you come up with a NewGRF that modifies the cargo payment, base costs and purchase costs so it gets more balanced?
08:28:23 <andythenorth> "your grf author was too lazy to update / hand over their project to someone else / didn't use a proper license so no-one else can update"
08:28:24 <Rubidium> (of the basic vehicles)
08:28:51 <andythenorth> Rubidium: could that be shipped by default with trunk?
08:29:18 <Rubidium> well, was more thinking about using those values as defaults
08:29:41 <andythenorth> can the range of base costs be extended?
08:29:51 <andythenorth> less fine grained, higher upper limits?
08:29:51 <Rubidium> then for NewGRF purposes the NewGRF can request the new default base costs, otherwise it gets the old base costs
08:31:09 <Rubidium> I guess that would be almost a prerequisite, wouldn't it?
08:31:17 <andythenorth> Rubidium: would this be before or after you change the payment model? :D
08:31:46 <Rubidium> good point
08:32:05 <Rubidium> don't know; no idea how much work the new payment model's going to be
08:32:17 <Rubidium> but... I guess it ought to use that
08:32:34 <andythenorth> does grf v8 need to consider patch?
08:32:41 <Rubidium> except for NewGRF cargos that didn't request the new default base costs
08:33:06 <Rubidium> andythenorth: do you expect anyone to implement it in ttdpatch?
08:33:10 <andythenorth> no
08:33:28 <Rubidium> same thought's coming from here ;)
08:33:29 <andythenorth> ottd could be the reference implementation of grf v8
08:33:41 <Rubidium> definitely
08:33:41 <andythenorth> thereby ending years of entertaining discussion :|
08:34:09 <andythenorth> MB would no longer be able to pop up and yell at you guys for doing it wrong
08:34:09 <Alberth> I have no doubt you'll find other entertaining topics :)
08:34:40 <andythenorth> and you would no longer be able to do things like *break my fricking grf due to being out of spec with TTDP" :\
08:35:43 <Alberth> huge disadvantages.. :)
08:35:43 <andythenorth> hmm
08:36:02 <andythenorth> there was a whole load of crap with refittable cargos that needed fixing for v8
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08:37:10 <andythenorth> we had a proposal for cargo to be able to determine refitting
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08:37:33 <andythenorth> I also patched a 'can wagon attach' cb which was tested as ok but never shipped :P
08:37:42 <andythenorth> that's probably safe for v7
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08:41:26 <andythenorth>
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09:18:03 <Wolf01> 'morning
09:18:49 <Alberth> moin
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09:36:08 <Pikka> bordig
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09:42:07 * andythenorth wonders
09:42:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22706 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup: A loop is no loop, if it never iterates.
09:42:16 <andythenorth> is "Middle Gulf" a stupid name for a ship?
09:42:21 <andythenorth> :P
09:42:45 <andythenorth> the USA doesn't name its sea areas interestingly
09:43:34 <frosch123> a Gulf/Golf is a car
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09:45:30 <andythenorth> FISH mostly names ships for sea areas :P
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09:56:46 <andythenorth> should ships be faster?
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10:06:03 <Alberth> that'd more a NUTS ship
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10:06:25 <andythenorth> can we divert all silly suggestions to NUTS?
10:07:00 <andythenorth> no
10:07:03 <andythenorth> we need another set
10:07:07 <andythenorth> NUTS is *unrealistic*
10:07:14 <Alberth> duh :)
10:07:15 <andythenorth> we also need the RAGS set
10:07:27 <frosch123> yeah, don't say everything can be done with squirrel
10:07:40 <Rubidium> andythenorth: <- that's the basic algorithmic idea I've got, with some numbers to play with
10:09:51 <andythenorth> Realistic And Gameplay Sucks set :P
10:12:31 <andythenorth> oo
10:12:34 <andythenorth> numbers :)
10:13:07 <andythenorth> looks exciting in a text editor :P
10:13:33 <Alberth> try a hex editor, it may have nice NFO code :)
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10:14:06 <andythenorth> I should install open office?
10:14:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: pages should open it, too
10:14:46 <planetmaker> err, numbers. whatever
10:15:04 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it is the ISO/IEC 26300:2006 standard for office application files... so any sane office application ought to be able to read it
10:16:51 * andythenorth naturally has insane office applications
10:17:02 <Rubidium> MS Office?
10:17:13 <andythenorth> yup
10:17:21 <andythenorth> I have excel from 2004 and refuse upgrades :P
10:17:23 <Rubidium> then you must not be using the Windows version ;)
10:17:43 <Rubidium> as only with Windows version you have a chance of it being supported
10:18:02 <frosch123> yay, awesome bugs...
10:18:17 <andythenorth> I have apple numbers but it sucks
10:23:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: numbers is not good, but sufficient to display that
10:23:15 <dihedral> hello
10:24:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: mine refuses :P
10:24:10 <andythenorth> I'm installing ooffice
10:24:23 <planetmaker> too old numbers, eh?
10:24:33 <andythenorth> I'm not upgrading numbers if I can avoid it :P
10:24:52 <andythenorth> I am no big fan of upgrades
10:25:12 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I'm not 100% sure I understand your table, though
10:25:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: there's no reason to upgrade it...
10:25:42 <planetmaker> it was just part of the package which contains keynotes.
10:25:48 <Rubidium> planetmaker: then I've done a good job ;)
10:25:56 <planetmaker> And that is IMHO indeed more convenient than Powerpoint
10:26:32 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but what don't you get?
10:26:50 <planetmaker> the 5 columns starting with base fare, distance fare,...
10:26:50 <andythenorth> oh
10:26:54 <andythenorth> ooffice got better
10:27:07 <andythenorth> mine was from 2007
10:27:09 <andythenorth> it sucked
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10:27:55 <Rubidium> planetmaker: new version; the gray fields are the ones that you can play with.
10:28:13 <Rubidium> the top ones are to 'model' different distances/speeds to check against
10:28:39 <Rubidium> the ones on the left are the 5 variables for the new payment algorithm
10:28:51 <Rubidium> base fare is just that: you get that amount regardless to the distance
10:29:01 <Rubidium> distance fare is what you get regardless of the speed
10:29:16 <andythenorth> so it's equivalent to:
10:29:19 <andythenorth> - lading fee
10:29:22 <andythenorth> - cost per ton mile
10:29:27 <andythenorth> - speed supplement
10:29:35 <planetmaker> ok, they're fixed numbers then for a given route
10:29:41 <Rubidium> surcharge start and fare are related. if speed > average free * surcharge start: then add the surcharge fare to the distance fare
10:29:43 <planetmaker> what about the surcharges?
10:30:14 <Rubidium> and the speed fare is a multiplication factor (1+speed_fare * speed) * distance_fare (incl. surcharge)
10:30:22 <andythenorth> do you measure actual speed? or d/t
10:30:49 <Rubidium> d/t from pickup to dropoff
10:33:39 <planetmaker> Rubidium: what's the speed fare? € = speed * speed_fare ?
10:34:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: 2:30 < Rubidium> and the speed fare is a multiplication factor (1+speed_fare * speed) * distance_fare (incl. surcharge)
10:34:14 <Rubidium> booh... missed the 1
10:34:15 <planetmaker> :-)
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10:35:29 <planetmaker> so actually € = ((1+speed_fare) * speed) * (distance_fare + speed_surcharge_fare*(speed>speed_surchage))
10:36:15 <Rubidium> (1+(speed_fare * speed)) * ...
10:36:21 <planetmaker> ah
10:36:26 <Rubidium> but yes, that's roughly it
10:36:32 <planetmaker> thx
10:36:48 <Rubidium> though the speed_surchage = average_speed * surchage_start
10:36:52 <andythenorth> maybe we should chart the numbers
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10:38:38 <Rubidium> maybe the average speed for the surcharge should be per cargo type per vehicle class, so slow coal trains doesn't mean that the pax trains are all very fast (relatively at least)
10:39:38 <planetmaker> that's a very vague number, Rubidium. Esp. given that newgrfs can do all kind of fancy callback magic
10:40:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: have you read the massive bit of text in the spreadsheet?
10:40:21 <Rubidium> average speed = running average of distance / duration of previously delivered cargos
10:40:41 <planetmaker> yes. And forgot again ;-). So only actual vehicles on the map count
10:40:57 <frosch123> sounds like a free market
10:41:12 <frosch123> if the compitioners transport faster than you, you are payd less
10:41:12 <andythenorth> the average speed is a really tricksy idea
10:41:16 <andythenorth> could be genius
10:41:17 <andythenorth> could suck
10:41:18 <Rubidium> yes, and I'd argue on a per company basis as well ;)
10:41:19 <planetmaker> sorry, Rubidium. But yes, that makes perfect sense
10:41:43 <planetmaker> why per-company?
10:41:46 <frosch123> Rubidium: per company? sounds like a cheat
10:42:04 <frosch123> build only slow cheap stuff and make the same money?
10:42:12 <planetmaker> it means I can make as much money with my steam engine in 2000 than my competitor with the TGV
10:42:15 <andythenorth> should be world-average?
10:42:25 <andythenorth> or map-region average :P
10:42:30 <andythenorth> when belugas finishes regions
10:42:40 <Rubidium> so that if a competitor builds a maglev he doesn't get everything with surcharge whereas you 300 km/h ICE trains get no surcharge anymore
10:43:23 <planetmaker> one maglev won't kill the average
10:43:28 <frosch123> that doesn't make sense, does it?
10:43:49 <planetmaker> but if he successfully converted everything... then, yes
10:44:03 <planetmaker> which'd be fine
10:44:04 <frosch123> if noone builds maglev, it is fine for ice to stay the best
10:44:22 <frosch123> but it should not make a difference whether you or someone else builds the first maglev
10:44:47 <Rubidium> it's not about being the first
10:45:01 <andythenorth> does the competitor provide service within n tiles?
10:45:18 <planetmaker> oh, that makes things too complicated, andythenorth
10:45:22 <andythenorth> if not, you have a local monopoly, so his service is irrelevant :D
10:45:32 <frosch123> i guess you could only take the linkgraph of cargode/ist and add a component for the average speed of a connection
10:46:04 <andythenorth> this would be interesting
10:46:12 <Rubidium> it's about you having a nice passenger network with slow and fast trains. Then the next moron comes along and drops some maglev lines, your network becomes significantly less profitable and the network of the other is extremely profitable (compared to single player)
10:46:37 <andythenorth> just do spot price economy :P
10:46:45 <andythenorth> I nearly worked it out last time it was discussed
10:47:04 <andythenorth> spot price + surcharge on some links
10:47:16 <Rubidium> just like 'we' Dutchies have to pay a surcharge for a 140km/h train, whereas that's more or less the standard in Japan
10:47:32 <andythenorth> my solution depended on town control iirc
10:47:54 <frosch123> sounds like a reason to not do town control :p
10:48:07 <andythenorth> there are many reasons not to do town control
10:48:08 <Rubidium> but when I take the DB to Berlin there's no surcharge, even when it goes way above 140km/h on some stretches
10:48:20 <Rubidium> I would pay extra for the ICE which is even faster
10:48:22 <andythenorth> Rubidium: 'regions' :P
10:48:35 <andythenorth> payment rates are political
10:48:36 <Rubidium> but that shouldn't mean that the Dutch train should be stripped from it's surcharge
10:48:42 <frosch123> Rubidium: yeah, you might be right. the inter-company thing is already done with the station rating
10:48:59 <frosch123> so you will just get less cargo, if there is competition
10:49:06 <andythenorth> but station rating measures vehicle speed and age
10:49:12 <andythenorth> so maglev still rinses everything else
10:49:17 * andythenorth ponders
10:49:18 <frosch123> doing it also with the prices, is overdoing it
10:49:26 <andythenorth> if maglev is so awesome, why don't we have them in RL?
10:49:39 <Rubidium> except that the maglev station would get busy, so the ratings drop... so it evens out a bit over time
10:49:44 <frosch123> [12:49] <andythenorth> but station rating measures vehicle speed and age <- but it does it only locally at the affected stations
10:50:10 <andythenorth> poking at the game is much more interesting than playing the game :)
10:52:09 <Rubidium> in any case, have fun experimenting with some number in the sheet. Got to go now ;)
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10:56:53 <Sc00by22> Is there any branch/tag in the SVN for 1.1.1 that I can compile and also play online, I've tried 1.1 branch and 1.1.1 tag and I've got version mismatch for them both.
10:57:14 <frosch123> the tag shoudl work
10:57:28 <Sc00by22> I tried it, in the title it shows 1.1.1M
10:57:41 <frosch123> then you have local modifications
10:57:47 <frosch123> what does 'svn status' say?
10:58:55 <Sc00by22> TortoiseSVN equiv?
10:59:06 <frosch123> no idea
10:59:23 <Sc00by22> If it helps all I did was a fresh checkout and compile
11:00:19 <andythenorth> anyone want new FISH?
11:00:45 <andythenorth> it's got a few bugs, but I might ship it
11:01:06 <frosch123> is new fish like fresh fish, or more like caviar?
11:01:39 <andythenorth> more like a slightly wider selection of fish
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11:01:51 <frosch123> :p
11:02:56 <Pikka> fish fish fish fish
11:03:02 <Pikka> ghoti
11:04:53 <planetmaker> sushi?
11:05:32 <Pikka> some unusual ships, hovercraft included
11:05:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: fun idea: Give your major FISH release nicknames:
11:06:12 <andythenorth> this one has a catamaran
11:06:16 <andythenorth> and some other stuff
11:06:19 <andythenorth> invent a name :P
11:06:37 <planetmaker> FISH 1.0.0 "skate"
11:06:47 <andythenorth> it also has some white pixels included at no extra charge
11:06:51 <andythenorth> I can't find the damn things
11:07:00 <planetmaker> doesn't it tell you?
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11:07:05 <planetmaker> is it maybe a pixel in the wake?
11:07:11 <andythenorth> probably
11:07:19 <andythenorth> but photoshop should be able to find it
11:07:25 <planetmaker> colour select plain white and you'll find it
11:08:10 <andythenorth> that's what I figured
11:08:21 * andythenorth -> lunch
11:08:26 <andythenorth> it's in sungei_catamaran.png if you want to look
11:08:28 * Pikka gives the Yak-40 "Yakety Sax" as a takeoff sound
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11:15:09 <Sc00by22> Got it to work frosch, I had to change the version from 1.1.1M to 1.1.1
11:15:13 <planetmaker> :-) Where do you get your sounds from, Pikka?
11:16:00 <Pikka> here and there. :o not really yakety sax though. :P
11:17:25 <frosch123> Sc00by22: the "M" means modified. so, if you disabled the autodetection and faked the version number, you just disabled the compatibility-checking.
11:17:54 <frosch123> if you encounter desyncs, something critical was modified
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11:18:43 <Sc00by22> I'll see how I go, I'm not using it as a client in the future, just a custom server
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11:22:34 <planetmaker> lol. That's even worse
11:23:00 <planetmaker> Because then the people who connect have the problem - and will report it as bug to us while you run a buggy server
11:23:20 <Sc00by22> Do you expect everybody to be shoddy coders?
11:23:22 <planetmaker> or patched if you want it
11:23:34 <fjunike> hi there. Ive got an "if (!function(para..." AND want to get the Value the the function returns. Easyest way to do this? (NoAI script, Squirrel)
11:23:52 <planetmaker> Sc00by22: no, of course not. But that's why running a patched server AND faking its revision is a very bad thing
11:24:17 <planetmaker> As people will assume that OpenTTD is buggy - and not assume that the server owner hacked the server alone
11:24:20 <Sc00by22> Luukland run a patched server, and nobody has had issues
11:24:29 <planetmaker> you bet
11:24:44 <Sc00by22> I play there a lot and never experienced a single problem
11:24:55 <Hirundo> fjunike: value = function(parameters); <newline> if (!value) ..
11:25:35 <planetmaker> lucky you
11:25:58 <frosch123> Sc00by22: the question is not whether there is a problem, but what would happen if there is a problem
11:26:01 <fjunike> hirundo: thank a lot :)
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11:26:53 <Sc00by22> I don't expect any problems
11:27:05 <Sc00by22> Most things are server-side anyway
11:27:24 <planetmaker> uhm, "most"?
11:27:34 <planetmaker> If you run a custom version - just call it that way.
11:27:48 <Sc00by22> Ok, everything then
11:28:06 <planetmaker> still, how does "server-side" imply "no problems"?
11:28:20 <Sc00by22> No problems for the client
11:28:28 <Sc00by22> Maybe for me, but that is my problem, which I will avoid
11:28:34 <planetmaker> you err on that account dramatically
11:30:08 <planetmaker> The client simulates the very same game. If only one thing in the game progression differs, the client is kicked
11:30:26 <Sc00by22> It's not going to be THAT modified
11:31:28 <Sc00by22> but, I'll just see how it goes
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12:05:19 <Zuu> fjunike: local val = function(parameters);
12:05:42 <Zuu> Oh Hirundo has already responded.
12:06:12 <fjunike> he did :)
12:06:47 <fjunike> zuu: im working on your streettrafic AI
12:07:17 <Zuu> sTHe streettraffic AI is not mine but a fork of my TownCars AI.
12:07:25 <Zuu> the*
12:08:31 <fjunike> ok. your name is listet in GetAuthor so i think it was yours
12:08:57 <Zuu> So unless you are the one who made the streettraffic fork, you will have to fork it again unless you can contact the streettraffic author and get him/her to include your changes in it.
12:10:49 <Zuu> If you provide a patch to TownCars, I might include it there as to not get way too many town car AIs. That said, the current TownCars code could benefit from scraping some code in favor for using code in SuperLib.
12:12:04 <fjunike> i just try to let the ai park some cars
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12:16:56 <Zuu> Parking (stoping) the cars randomly is probably not too hard. The harder part is to make sure you don't block any streets by parknig cars on both sides of the street.
12:17:13 <Zuu> The later is not impossible to do, but will require some more work and understanding.
12:17:36 <fjunike> right
12:17:58 <fjunike> i try to count the vehicles on tile
12:18:10 <fjunike> an on the tiles around
12:18:57 <fjunike> max 1 vehicle on 3x3
12:19:53 <Zuu> that should work as long as the vehicles aren't articulated with several wagons.
12:20:24 <Zuu> Something you can probably assume that they aren't.
12:20:55 <Zuu> You can see in the engine selection if articulated engines (cars) are filtered out.
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12:22:23 <fjunike> thanks for thi hint first time i try only with generic town cars so there are no articulated vehicles because the AI is only allowd to build vahicles with 0 price and 0 kosts
12:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the tables at don't seem to be very accurate, where is the real calculation?
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12:34:53 <krinn> hi
12:34:58 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the difficulty plays a role somewhere iirc
12:35:06 <krinn> is there an option to disable terraforming for ai or i'll be safe ?
12:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... can't change the difficulty level ingame...
12:36:18 <planetmaker> krinn, there's not. I'm not sure whether the general terraform limits applicable to players also is valid for them
12:36:32 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, play with custom. Then you can change things
12:36:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no
12:36:43 <krinn> the high/low build near corner maps limits ?
12:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: most of the settings are disabled after game start
12:36:58 <planetmaker> krinn, no, rather the how many tiles per N frames
12:37:20 <planetmaker> search your config file for *burst*
12:37:20 <krinn> it's hardcode in game?
12:37:30 <krinn> ok
12:37:32 <planetmaker> it's a setting, for both clear and terraform
12:37:45 <planetmaker> both as burst and withing 64k ticks or so
12:38:02 <krinn> terraform_frame_burst = 4096
12:38:11 <krinn> this allow 4096 tiles / frame ?
12:38:31 <krinn> to be terraform
12:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but actually i wanted the code piece that does the calculation.
12:39:16 <planetmaker> krinn, yes. But no idea whether it's applicable to AIs.
12:39:50 <krinn> planetmaker, would you say Sleep(1) per tile change is enought to stay safe?
12:39:54 <planetmaker> it's basically meant to stop map-wide terraform by grievers...
12:39:58 <fjunike> eddizuhause: gibts anscheinend doch ein paar deutsche ottd coder :)
12:40:21 <planetmaker> fjunike, yes, they exist. But this channel is English only ;-)
12:40:25 <andythenorth> FISH is shipped
12:40:29 <andythenorth> 4 new boats
12:40:40 <andythenorth> couple of them adjust gameplay quite a bit
12:40:56 <fjunike> i know planetmaker ;)
12:42:30 <andythenorth> V453000: congratulations
12:42:45 <andythenorth> the NUTS set has already been criticised on grounds of reality
12:42:47 <andythenorth> :)
12:43:29 <andythenorth> "you can't includes this vehicle because it's unrealistic" :P
12:43:42 <planetmaker> :-D
12:45:32 <fjunike> is there an AIGroup.GetNum to count ALL vehicles in a group?
12:47:21 <krinn> i do as AIVehicle_ListGroup()
12:47:34 <krinn> then blah.Count()
12:47:55 <fjunike> ok thanx
12:48:22 <krinn> look at the real function name might be AIVehicleGroupList() :)
12:50:16 <fjunike> there is an AIVehicleList_Group(id)
12:50:38 <krinn> yeah that one so, just use .Count() and you'll get # vehicle in it
12:52:02 <andythenorth> what counts as unrealistic in an unrealistic set?
12:52:23 <andythenorth> the set must have some form of reality, or it couldn't be manifest
12:52:45 <andythenorth> anyway, ti seems forums are short on irony :P
12:52:50 <andythenorth> ti / it /s
12:53:04 <krinn> the real problem with "reality guys", is that it's not reality as in life even, it's their reality :p
12:53:36 <andythenorth> and here we have a central problem in western philosophy :)
12:53:49 <andythenorth> what is the world?
12:53:53 <andythenorth> how do we know?
12:53:57 <andythenorth> and what should we do about it?
12:54:05 <andythenorth> is basically all philosophy summed up
12:54:13 <krinn> it's easy if your french: in doubt, just complain
12:54:26 <andythenorth> I prefer french philosophy
12:54:29 <andythenorth> it's wittier
12:55:29 <andythenorth> new FISH has already had 1/1000th of it's maximum downloads
12:56:42 * andythenorth should go do something else
12:56:44 <andythenorth> :P
12:56:47 <andythenorth> bye
12:56:47 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you still look for it: engine.cpp
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12:57:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Engine::GetCost()?
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12:58:00 <planetmaker> yes. Which then points to economy.cpp GetPrice
12:59:06 <frosch123> hmm, thouse tables in the wiki should use £
12:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> right, that's what i found
13:04:22 <planetmaker> from vehicles GetCost it gets a shift of -8 which makes a base_cost_exponent of 8 the neutral one
13:05:31 <planetmaker> thus cost = base_cost_value * cost * 2**(base_cost - 8) the resulting cost
13:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm...
13:11:48 <frosch123> better add that 2 resp 3 to 'shift'
13:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> why?
13:13:39 <frosch123> less rounding
13:13:50 <frosch123> divide only once
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13:15:42 <krinn> shifting instead of / per 4 or 8 would be faster for the cpu
13:16:41 <krinn> div cycles are always higher in all cpu than shifting
13:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: that is true, but every modern compiler will optimize that for you
13:17:02 <krinn> but i suppose the compiler would catch that and change it
13:17:14 <krinn> just say it too ^^
13:17:23 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: so this change is purely for readability
13:17:40 <krinn> better add a comment, dunno with what compiler one is going to build it
13:18:01 <krinn> also many user can alter compiler choice gcc with -O0 = you won't get that effect i'm sure
13:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: like this? it kinda defeats the point...
13:18:19 <planetmaker> krinn, the amount of self-compilers is probably negligible in the overall context
13:18:47 <Alberth> krinn: if you use -O0, you are not interested in speed of the program
13:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: err, i think the + must be a -
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13:19:35 <krinn> nope Alberth, i'm interrest maybe in stability, less optimization less chance to a faulty optimize
13:20:07 <krinn> and that was gcc option, maybe some other compiler doesn't have the option at all
13:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: you are not going to play a game in such an environment...
13:20:52 <Alberth> krinn: then code directly in machine language, surely that's the most stable environment :p
13:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: by default, only debug builds will use the -O0 parameter
13:20:55 <krinn> some people use emulators... this kind of / won't help them
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13:21:14 <frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: i meant like taht
13:21:16 <krinn> don't get it wrong, i won't build it -O0 :)
13:21:44 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: and not even that, default still optimizes variables away
13:21:46 <krinn> just that i think a "// div 4" would be better than "/4"
13:22:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i still think this is wrong...
13:23:03 <krinn> pov, but you're the coder here, so your choice prevail
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13:25:09 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you mean newgrf authors will complain when the costs of their vehicles change slightly? :p
13:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, i mean it does defeat the point of making the formula more readable
13:27:00 <frosch123> making a formula nice and minimizing computational errors it not the same :)
13:27:54 <frosch123> you can only argue, that computational error does not matter if there is inflation
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13:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how about this?
13:31:27 <frosch123> also an interesting option
13:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> introduces a multiplication for the medium case...
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14:13:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22707 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify applying the difficulty settings to prices, and reduce computational errors. (Eddi)
14:14:52 <planetmaker> apropops wiki, Pikka: your newgrf wiki link in your signature is outdated ;-)
14:15:18 <Pikka> true, true
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14:18:04 * planetmaker wonders whether Pikka never sleeps, though ;-)
14:19:02 <Pikka> at times!
14:19:19 <planetmaker> :-)
14:19:36 <planetmaker> I'd have bet on something like past 2 am?
14:19:45 <planetmaker> But... probably I'm wrong
14:19:47 <Pikka> it's only 12
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14:20:00 <Pikka> and I'm still on holiday until wednesday, so it's allowed!
14:20:11 <planetmaker> ha! Good for you :-)
14:20:24 <Pikka> (and I'll be on twilights this week anyway, don't start work until 11 or 12)
14:20:32 <Pikka> (so no need to get up early :))
14:20:51 <planetmaker> also good - as it seems to not be the early twilight ;-)
14:21:52 <Pikka> :) it is a strange name for a shift, granted
14:22:35 <planetmaker> well, I find it not that bad - but if it starts at noon... then it's odd ;-)
14:22:56 <Pikka> at my workplace "earlies" start between 4 and 7, "twilights" between 10 and 12, and "lates" between 2 and 4
14:23:10 <Pikka> and I do twilights and earlies in alternate weeks
14:23:29 <planetmaker> ah. But 4am is rather early... *shudder*
14:24:00 <Pikka> yep.. good fun, especially in winter :)
14:24:43 <Pikka> there's also broken shifts which typically work 7-12 then 3-8, but I don't do those any more :)
14:25:07 <Pikka> at least with the 4am starts you're done working by 1 or 2. :)
14:26:31 <Pikka> broken shifts pay more, you get paid half-rate for the break in the middle. but it's a longggg day. I'd rather earn more by working weekends.
14:29:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of work is this, anyway?
14:30:27 <Alberth> staying awake at weird hours :)
14:33:26 <planetmaker> :-)
14:33:41 <Pikka> that too
14:33:46 <Pikka> but also bus driving
14:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... that must be an annoyingly boring job...
14:35:12 <Pikka> well, it's not as bad driving for BT as it is for the private operators. Most private operators have one driver doing one route, all day every day
14:35:53 <Pikka> I get to do different stuff every day. if you like people, driving, and watching people do stupid things in traffic, it's not so bad.
14:37:06 <Pikka> also, for those with an interest in how transport systems work, it's a nice inside perspective. :P
14:37:51 <Pikka> but yes, I'll definitely be looking to get some expanded duties and a bit more variety in my work once I finish my traineeship.
14:43:46 <planetmaker> hm, where's andy when one needs him?
14:43:57 <Pikka> lunch
14:44:31 <planetmaker> at 15:44h? ;-)
14:45:15 <Pikka> why not?
14:46:15 <planetmaker> food after 15h is in my category tea time or dinner ;-)
14:48:16 <planetmaker> but probably his baby keeps demanding more and he still didn't finish himself ;-)
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14:52:29 <fjunike> is there an integer division Squirrel
14:59:06 <frosch123> does (1 / 2).tointeger() work?
15:04:24 <fjunike> looks good :)
15:04:27 <fjunike> thx
15:06:05 <Zuu> Dividing one integer with another integer gives an integer in Squirrel as in most languages.
15:06:24 <Zuu> The only exception I know is Delphi, where a division always cause a float.
15:06:49 <fjunike> var / 100 * var2 isnt not everytime a int ;)
15:06:50 <frosch123> delphi has a separate operator :)
15:07:15 <fjunike> is not *gg
15:07:24 <Zuu> (var / 100) => int value, that is then multiplied with var2.
15:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i kinda like the "separate" operator idea... i really wonder why it hasn't propagated to more languages than just pascal...
15:08:12 <Zuu> (if both var and var2 are ints)
15:08:13 <Alberth> Zuu: python 3 too
15:08:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it makes no sense with operator overloading
15:08:53 <frosch123> it only makes sense for natural numbers
15:09:05 <Zuu> Alberth: Thanks, good to know.
15:09:13 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: pascal was earlier than delphi :)
15:09:18 <frosch123> though you can say the same for modulo
15:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: delphi is an "advanced" pascal
15:10:04 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, so "propagated to" did not happen
15:10:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i should have said "pascal-derivates"
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15:10:36 <frosch123> hmm, does uml know operators?
15:10:56 <Alberth> java doesn't, I think
15:11:20 <frosch123> (uml uses pascal syntax)
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15:12:23 <Alberth> oh, I only know about uml in java context
15:12:31 <krinn> later all
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15:12:50 <Alberth> ie the eclipse EMF
15:13:17 <Alberth> no, that's not right, uml is not part of EMF
15:13:22 * andythenorth ponders
15:13:39 <frosch123> i guess if you attach uml to a specific language, it will refrain from using a syntax of another language
15:13:46 <planetmaker> oh, hi andythenorth
15:13:58 <frosch123> but language-independent uml uses pascal syntax
15:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never seen a real-world application of UML
15:14:20 <Alberth> eclipse is supposed to be language-agnostic, but practically, it does mainly java
15:14:40 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you can draw nice class diagrams in it
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15:15:00 <andythenorth> I have seen a system for creating cms modules using uml only, no html or python
15:15:04 <andythenorth> nobody uses it :P
15:15:16 <andythenorth>
15:15:17 <Alberth> and with EMF, generate class code from it
15:15:48 <andythenorth> I had an idea
15:15:52 <andythenorth> it may be brilliant
15:15:54 <andythenorth> or not
15:16:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: yeah, people try to use it for everything, no matter whether it is useful for that purpose
15:16:19 <andythenorth> is there a limit to the size of the buy menu text box?
15:16:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, the screen size
15:16:45 <andythenorth> awesome
15:16:55 <andythenorth> I might implement 'readme' vehicles in HEQS and FISH
15:16:56 <frosch123> well, and the number of characters
15:17:02 <Alberth> not if your display is 320x240 :)
15:17:03 <andythenorth> and a 'readme' industry in FIRS
15:17:05 <frosch123> same 512 bytes as everywhere else
15:17:20 <frosch123> or whatever number
15:17:55 <frosch123> and there is a 64kB limit for pseudo sprites :p
15:17:59 <Alberth> weird length, I'd expect 254 or so :)
15:18:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, ... different industries use different cluster count, eh?
15:18:55 <andythenorth> yes
15:19:01 <andythenorth> nothing simple about FIRS :P
15:19:07 <frosch123> hmm, DRAW_STRING_BUFFER is 2048 though
15:19:36 <Alberth> but we draw also other stuff than just newgrf strings
15:19:56 <Alberth> eg console output
15:21:17 <andythenorth> 'readme' vehicles would solve quite a bit
15:21:26 <planetmaker> oh, please don't :-)
15:22:02 <planetmaker> better kick LordAro's ass to finish the readme viewer
15:22:29 <andythenorth> "the solution is newgrf!"
15:22:33 <frosch123> we need a special stringcode to hyperlink from any grftext into the readme :p
15:22:51 <andythenorth> what readme :P
15:23:32 <andythenorth> also - I thought to be able to preview the buy menu when using newgrf panel
15:23:38 <andythenorth> I can't be the first to think that
15:23:53 <fjunike> #( i alway get 0 by my math oberation var / 100 * var2 (0 = 72 / 100 * 5) so the vars a filld with numbers
15:24:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: that is listed on the grftopia page
15:25:00 <andythenorth> I must have read it there already then
15:27:24 <Sacro_> I'm not impressed wiht the bbc
15:27:33 <Sacro_> and if they get rid of the f1 then I won't buy a licence next year
15:27:41 <andythenorth> ask for your money back
15:27:43 <Sacro_> I can watch f1 and top gear delayed
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15:32:10 <fjunike> very nice! a / 100 * b dont work, a * b / 100 works #(
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15:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> fjunike: well, obviously 72/100 is 0 in integer-math
15:36:19 <fjunike> i dont like scriptlang where a can't say my var is a int or a string or ... :(
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15:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> soo... now we only need a list of realistic prices for all engines...
15:47:22 <frosch123> realistic?
15:47:26 <frosch123> really?
15:49:10 <frosch123> maybe just assign price categories to them: cheap, medium, expensiv
15:49:32 <frosch123> and the do the rest with formulas from the stats, year and the category
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16:21:49 <Zuu> Oo, AdmiralAI has built a museum tramway :-p
16:22:04 <Zuu> It goes around a block and has one station.
16:22:30 <Alberth> I have seen such routes before with an AI :)
16:22:56 <Alberth> except it tried to get & drop from the same station iirc :)
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16:45:23 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Want to playtest/tune something for me? :p
16:45:39 <Eddi|zuHause> depends ;)
16:45:49 <michi_cc>
16:46:10 <michi_cc> Needs proper base costs and cost factors
16:47:10 <michi_cc> And maybe some kind of power law for the costs instead of linear, but I don't want to bankrupt everybody :)
16:47:39 <Zuu> looks interesting
16:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a large patch
16:49:13 <Zuu> myself, I've managed to sequently reproduce a strange crash in QUeue.FibonacciHeap2. I fear it could be my computer that has a memory issue. At least I'm going to try with another computer or maby also with last nightly and not only 1.1.2-RC2.
16:53:57 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause:
16:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> how fast do you want results?
16:56:56 <michi_cc> Whatever suits you. I'm not out of work after that patch :)
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16:58:41 <planetmaker> michi_cc: I'd make the cost multiplier an enum instead of magic numbers
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16:58:55 <planetmaker> + return (_price[PR_INFRASTRUCTURE_ROAD] * (roadtype == ROADTYPE_TRAM ? 8 : 6)) >> 3;
16:59:51 <planetmaker> same as for rail, I think
17:00:13 <michi_cc> Nothing in the default railtype defs has an enum though.
17:01:11 <planetmaker> well... no reason for further magic numbers ;-)
17:01:50 <planetmaker> I mainly meant roadtypes, though
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17:04:37 <michi_cc> Let's find playable values first... I never play with the default vehicles, which makes balancing the costs to them hard
17:05:41 <planetmaker> :-)
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17:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> something is wrong, X/KDE doesn't react on mouse clicks anymore...
17:25:37 <Alberth> your remote X server disconnected? :p
17:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it worked again after i closed a few programs
17:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it reacted on keyboard, and the mouse cursor moved, just no mouse events were captured
17:33:41 <planetmaker> did your cat unplug it?
17:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> no cat, no cables :p
17:34:13 <planetmaker> no batteries?
17:34:32 <andythenorth> sun spots
17:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> then the mouse cursor wouldn't move
17:34:44 <andythenorth> what's going in the next version of FISH?
17:34:46 <andythenorth> oh
17:34:55 <andythenorth> I have to decide that :P
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17:36:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth, whale hunter, rainbow warrior, Aida. ;-)
17:36:24 <planetmaker> but they all make for better disaster vehicles...
17:36:34 <andythenorth> whaling grounds?
17:36:42 <planetmaker> yeah. New FIRS industry
17:36:43 <andythenorth> nuclear test site industry?
17:36:47 <planetmaker> also
17:36:57 <andythenorth> hmm
17:37:27 <planetmaker> waste dump at sea might be interesting, too
17:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Mururoa!
17:37:39 <planetmaker> accepts chemicals and waste
17:37:43 <andythenorth> recyclables -> ocean
17:38:04 <andythenorth>
17:38:10 <planetmaker> :-)
17:38:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "Too Much Realism" (TMR) :p
17:39:06 <planetmaker> that's a good industry and cargo
17:39:21 <planetmaker> Realism generator. Cargo "realism". And "realism dump site"
17:39:27 <Alberth> (19:38:24) andythenorth: nuclear test site industry? <-- NUclear Test Site
17:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that name is taken, i fear :p
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17:40:40 <andythenorth> he hasn't shipped yet
17:40:44 <andythenorth> I could gazump him
17:41:04 <andythenorth> can anyone replicate this?
17:41:05 <andythenorth>
17:41:07 <andythenorth> and/or fix it?
17:41:16 <andythenorth> might not be my error
17:41:23 <andythenorth> might be ottd missing a bit of code
17:41:28 <Alberth> lol
17:41:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you can check that afaik
17:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i never play with breakdowns
17:42:10 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: boring
17:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, breakdowns are boring
17:42:24 <planetmaker> breakdowns are boring ;-)
17:42:40 <planetmaker> smoking horses... nicotine addiction at its best :-D
17:43:00 <planetmaker> "sorry, we need a smoking pause" ;-)
17:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "Sag mal, raucht dein Pferd?" - "Nein." - "Na dann brennt dein Stall."
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17:44:52 <LordAro> evenings
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17:47:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you want to check possibly variable CB for 'broken' or B4 for 'current_speed'
17:47:54 <planetmaker> hello LordAro
17:48:06 <LordAro> hi planetmaker
17:48:07 <andythenorth> I check B4 iirc
17:48:35 <planetmaker> it's some magic necessary with that variable
17:48:49 <planetmaker> I don't understand the NML implementation, but it's not a plain return of it
17:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i suspect it's an openttd bug
17:49:19 <planetmaker> @base 16 10 23C3
17:49:19 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 9155
17:49:25 <planetmaker> hm, whatever
17:51:23 <andythenorth> someone reported a problem with FIRS using var 7E
17:51:37 <planetmaker> yes, H1rundo did
17:51:48 * andythenorth digs up a ticket
17:51:54 <andythenorth> oh
17:52:04 <andythenorth> so advanced layouts don't work in nfo
17:52:09 <andythenorth> but 7E doesn't work in nml :P
17:52:20 <andythenorth> ho ho
17:52:37 <andythenorth> that piece of code using 7E was one of the reasons we're migrating to nml :D
17:52:38 <LordAro> Alberth: lines 255-259 here: <-- result in this lovely little lot:
17:52:52 <andythenorth> how interestink
17:53:06 <planetmaker> :-D
17:53:11 <planetmaker> what does that piece of code do?
17:55:48 <LordAro> planetmaker: me? should remove tabs and CR's
17:55:57 <planetmaker> sorry, I meant andy ;-)
17:56:23 <Alberth> nice error :p
17:56:26 <LordAro> :oops:
17:56:28 <LordAro> :)
17:56:52 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it makes use of advanced layouts
17:57:07 <planetmaker> anything more specific?
17:57:09 <andythenorth> to provide climate dependent ground tiles iirc
17:57:18 <andythenorth> I got it from frosch more or less
17:57:32 <planetmaker> layouts with parameter do work...
17:57:57 <andythenorth> so nml can provide this without 7E?
17:58:12 <planetmaker> Honestly, I don't really know
17:58:26 <andythenorth> this could be done without 7E, but only in an ugly way
17:58:53 <planetmaker> dunno :-)
17:59:33 <andythenorth> meantime it can be replaced
17:59:38 <Alberth> LordAro: I see you do "*readme_text++ = *src;" what do you think happens with the readme_text pointer there?
18:00:31 <Alberth> note it is a short hand notation for "*readme_text = *src; readme_text++;"
18:00:54 <LordAro> something bad, i suspect :) i don't really know what's going on with that bit of code (i got cut off yesterday before i had a chance to ask)
18:02:05 <Alberth> the pointer gets incremented, which means you are loosing the starting point of the text
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18:03:06 <Alberth> as well as with free(this->readme_text) where you return a pointer different from the one you received from malloc (which I suspect is the cuase of your error)
18:03:10 <andythenorth> it's not required to use that 7E code at the moment
18:03:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: submit a bug for NML
18:03:54 <planetmaker> it's known, Alberth ;-)
18:04:01 <planetmaker> The hint came from Hirundo himself
18:04:47 <andythenorth> should probably just use whatever was in 0.6.5
18:05:32 <Alberth> LordAro: can you give me the documentation patch? I'll finish it a bit, and commit it
18:05:42 <Alberth> tomorrow, most likely
18:06:04 <LordAro> cool :) i'll just go and grab it
18:06:52 <Alberth> LordAro: in short, don't change readme_text, make a new pointer, and use that instead char *dest = this->readme_text; .... *dest++ = *src
18:09:03 <LordAro> ah, ok :) i got rid of char *dest because i thought it wasn't needed :)
18:10:17 <LordAro> you know, it was inefficent because all you were doing was copying it from then to readme_text
18:10:24 <LordAro> patch:
18:11:45 <Alberth> no worries, you still have to split on \n, that will cause some more changes :p
18:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i have a fundamental problem with your patch. i cannot play without destinations anymore... :p
18:13:17 <Alberth> thanks for the patch
18:13:33 <LordAro> yes :) still not sure about how to do that
18:13:57 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that is normal
18:16:00 <Alberth> LordAro: Basically, instead of one long string that you dump into DrawMultiBlahBlahString(), you need to make a list of lines, and DrawString() each line separately
18:16:33 <Alberth> I am not sure whether wrapping of lines is needed, I'd say try it without first, and see whether that works good enough
18:17:20 <LordAro> but how would i split the 'big char' into 'little char'(s)? i obviously can't do readme_text1, readme_text2... :)
18:18:09 <Alberth> the first line is of course at readme_txt, the second line starts at the first character after \n of the first line, etc.
18:18:59 <Alberth> The usual approach is to use a SmallVector to create as many line-start's as you need.
18:20:07 <Alberth> as a first step, do char *lines[100]; that gives you lines[0], lines[1], lines[2], ... lines[99], which is almost the same as readme_text1, readme_text2..., readme_text100 :)
18:20:48 <Alberth> and if you think 100 is not enough, add a few zeroes :)
18:22:38 <Alberth> also make a 'int num_lines;'. That integer keeps track of the first unused line[]
18:24:21 <Alberth> this is too much perhaps.
18:24:34 <Alberth> first make sure the program runs again :)
18:25:01 <andythenorth> hmm
18:25:04 <andythenorth> how do other people test?
18:25:14 <Alberth> then do another for-loop, and print something each time you are at the first character after a \n
18:25:25 <LordAro> SmallVector?
18:25:36 <andythenorth> depending on what language / framework I'm using, I compile for pretty much every LOC I add, or a complete statement / function if LOC won't work alone
18:25:41 <andythenorth> is that overkill :o
18:26:11 <Alberth> I can code for weeks without compile :p
18:26:18 <andythenorth> omg
18:26:39 <Alberth> LordAro: forget SmallVector for now, too complicated at this time
18:26:40 <andythenorth> I guess if you have good debug tools it's fine
18:26:58 <andythenorth> I cut my teeth in coding environments without debug tools
18:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the time where your entire code is consisting of development documentation, not actual code :p
18:27:25 <Alberth> usually, I have to write a *lot* of relatively simple code before I can run anything
18:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i prefer taking existing code, and adding a few lines
18:28:04 <Alberth> my Python code is more docs than code :)
18:28:19 <andythenorth> that's fine
18:28:25 <andythenorth> define interface doc strings first
18:28:34 <andythenorth> then have them return 'hello' or something :P
18:28:38 <andythenorth> then write actual code
18:28:59 <andythenorth> I wrote a lot of flash games
18:29:07 <andythenorth> changing too much at once is bad for multiple reasons
18:29:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: but if possible, I take a simple example problem, and write from start to end, trying to run the program after each step
18:30:09 <andythenorth> I write pages and pages of html without thinking
18:30:19 <Alberth> there is a BIG difference between writing new code from scratch and changing existing code. The latter is often more difficult
18:30:30 <andythenorth> but every time I have to do js, I have to go literally adding one operator at a time
18:30:34 <andythenorth> to see what I broke :P
18:30:43 <Alberth> the <..> tags of html drive me crazy :p
18:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what firs rev is the last "running properly" version?
18:31:05 <andythenorth> rev?
18:31:06 <andythenorth> dunno
18:31:09 <andythenorth> let me check
18:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's some stray head in your repo
18:31:23 <andythenorth> yay
18:31:39 <LordAro> [19:20:06] <@Alberth> as a first step, do char *lines[100]; that gives you lines[0], lines[1], lines[2], ... lines[99], which is almost the same as readme_text1, readme_text2..., readme_text100 :) <-- do you not mean char **lines[100]... ? or have i got completely the wrong idea about what that is :)
18:31:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: likely 2102 unless I screwed up
18:32:01 <planetmaker> LordAro, there's a SmallVector type within OpenTTD
18:32:06 <planetmaker> Make use of that
18:32:22 <Alberth> planetmaker: I just told him not to :)
18:32:28 <Alberth> but feel free to explain :)
18:32:34 <planetmaker> oh. I thought you did :-)
18:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my local revision numbers are probably not aligned with yours
18:33:37 <Alberth> LordAro: int i is a in integer. int x[100] are 100 integers. char *readme_text is a character pointer. char *lines[100] are 100 such pointers
18:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you have the hash of that commit?
18:33:52 <andythenorth> here:
18:33:59 <andythenorth> feel free to try others around that point
18:34:07 <Alberth> LordAro: char **lines[100] are 100 pointers to pointers to characters :)
18:34:39 <LordAro> :O :) do you ever realisticly need to use that?
18:35:22 <Alberth> LordAro: 'int i' is a integer, int *p is a pointer to integer, int **q is a pointer to a pointer to integer (is a pointer to a 'p' thus)
18:35:36 <Alberth> LordAro: oh yes, some times you need it.
18:36:20 <LordAro> (i almost don't want to know the answer) e.g.? :)
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18:38:49 <Alberth> if you want to return a pointer value through a parameter. (which probably means nothing to you now, but I don't know a better example :( )
18:39:24 <Alberth> int i = 100; int *p = &i; *p = 200; do you understand what this code does?
18:40:32 <planetmaker> <-- hehe. Interesting graph
18:40:57 <planetmaker> Time and again a merge was needed when I committed translations - while andy committed concurrently some other stuff
18:41:20 <LordAro> Alberth: makes 'i' = 200 ?
18:41:40 <frosch123> IndustrySpec **&industryspec = (*file)->industryspec; <- **& is quite common in ottd
18:41:43 <Alberth> LordAro: indeed.
18:42:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker "pull before commit" :P
18:42:17 <andythenorth> but which of us was at fault :P
18:42:30 <Alberth> now what I just did with integers, you can also do with pointers
18:43:08 <LordAro> sounds fun :)
18:43:28 <Alberth> int i = 100; j = 100; int *p = &i; int **q = &p; *q = &j;
18:44:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth, time progression shows that your commits were later ;-)
18:44:22 <andythenorth> ha
18:44:31 <andythenorth> I am not good at vcs discipline
18:44:44 <andythenorth> I am good at drawing sprites (opinions may vary)
18:45:07 <Alberth> here p is what i was in the previous example, and *q is what *p was in the previous example
18:45:16 <Alberth> (sorry about the confusing names :p )
18:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: not sure if that is still current, but in german town names 0.1.0 i just got a name "GroßBraunburg", something isn't right there
18:46:15 <Alberth> LordAro: and of course, you can also do the same with int ***, int ****, etc :p (but I never did that)
18:46:31 * LordAro hides :)
18:47:21 <Alberth> I always make drawings when doing pointers, otherwise I get lost :)
18:47:30 <planetmaker> The missing space?
18:47:38 <planetmaker> I *think* I fixed something like that
18:47:48 <planetmaker> But... who knows, if I don't know?
18:47:54 <Alberth> hg
18:48:16 <planetmaker> maybe :-)
18:48:37 <Alberth> the issie tracker perhaps
18:48:40 <planetmaker> "Fix: Some automatic town prefix were missing spaces. Real town names had too many spaces" sounds like
18:48:41 <Alberth> *issue
18:48:54 <Alberth> hg log -k space :)
18:49:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and in Pikka's TaI houses the houses change direction if you build a tram stop...
18:49:16 <planetmaker> :-D
18:52:50 <LordAro> g2g thanks again for your help Alberth :)
18:53:09 <Alberth> ok, good luck with the lines epxerimenting
18:53:13 <Alberth> bye
18:53:34 <LordAro> will do :) lots of compiling, error, fix error, compile again will occur :)
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19:01:57 <andythenorth> is it possible that industry fund cursor could highlight for valid places to place industry?
19:02:11 <andythenorth> possibly by running a pre-flight check on the cb28 and cb22 for each layout?
19:02:27 <planetmaker> that'd run A LOT of checks
19:02:49 <andythenorth> I guess if cb28 uses an expensive var like 65(?) it would be very bad
19:02:49 <planetmaker> n*m*l with n*m = map size and l = number layouts
19:03:11 <andythenorth> it would only highlight for the current tile the cursor is on
19:03:14 <planetmaker> which is... 12 million callbacks for a large map and 3 layouts
19:03:48 <andythenorth> it wouldn't need to show every valid location, just whether current tile is a valid n tile for any of the layouts
19:04:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: you could check it when moving the cursor over the screen
19:04:26 <frosch123> highlighing all positions makes no sense
19:04:27 <planetmaker> That's possible
19:04:48 <frosch123> but you would have to specify what to do for multiple layouts
19:04:58 <frosch123> show the first one, show the union of all, ...
19:05:15 <frosch123> well, and you need to extent the highlighting code for irregular highlights :p
19:05:34 <planetmaker> :-D
19:05:40 <planetmaker> damn, yes
19:05:42 <andythenorth> show the first valid layout
19:05:58 <andythenorth> and don't show the actual tile layouts, just whether it's a valid n tile
19:06:13 <andythenorth> bridges do something similar now
19:06:14 <andythenorth> ?
19:06:29 <planetmaker> showing the final layout after building is much more useful
19:06:39 <planetmaker> especially given the building issue with e.g. FIRS harbours
19:07:06 <andythenorth> true
19:07:16 <andythenorth> it's nice-to-have, not essential
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19:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> take the maximum X/Y extent over all layouts, and then mark an area of that size
19:17:49 <planetmaker> that might be much easier, yes
19:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the "85% accurate" solution
19:20:20 <frosch123> yeah, sounds reasonable
19:20:25 <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether the layout is then already decided or not, so yes
19:20:29 <frosch123> you can then still mark it red or white
19:20:44 <frosch123> planetmaker: the layout is only decided when you click :p
19:20:54 <frosch123> the server does that
19:21:10 <planetmaker> then it's even a 100% accurate decision ;-)
19:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure on what data you want to decide red or white...
19:24:16 <planetmaker> white: ok. Red not ok ;-)
19:24:23 <frosch123> whether the industry can be placed (assuming that the industry decided that using only determniistic stuff)
19:24:27 <frosch123> i.e. no random bits
19:25:53 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc:,%2030.%20Jul%201922.png <-- the railtypes in the maintenance window should probably be sorted the same way as in the construction dropdown. and i'd make extra categories for bridges, stations, etc.
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19:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and some indication on what the actual maintenance cost per month/year are
19:27:50 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: You need to enable the advanced setting, the you'll see the cost as well :p
19:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause> ah
19:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> ok
19:28:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the railtypes seem to have 0 maintenance cost...
19:28:55 <michi_cc> And yes, the sorting could be better, I was just too lazy to do it for now
19:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> is that cost per month?
19:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't say anywhere ;)
19:30:11 <andythenorth> hmm
19:30:12 <michi_cc> Hmm, NewGRF defined railtypes should get the cost of the plain rail
19:30:14 * andythenorth ponders
19:30:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you requested a forklift for HEQS
19:30:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes
19:30:41 <michi_cc> Yes, it is per month. Suggestions for a better GUI layout welcome.
19:30:47 <andythenorth> I considered refittable capacities for it
19:30:54 <andythenorth> I think that probably sucks though
19:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, just 1 of anything...
19:31:16 <andythenorth> not pax :P
19:31:21 <planetmaker> 1 l of oil
19:31:32 <planetmaker> not pax? :-(
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19:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: 1 oil is 1000l
19:31:57 <planetmaker>
19:32:36 <andythenorth> a 1t forklift is weeny
19:32:36 <andythenorth> :P
19:32:37 <planetmaker> <-- in English
19:32:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the game unfortunately doesn't model smaller amounts :p
19:33:14 <andythenorth> I could fake it
19:33:23 <andythenorth> just transpose the cargo suffixes :P
19:33:37 <andythenorth> 1 quarter-ton :P
19:33:42 <andythenorth> all the physics would be broken
19:33:48 <andythenorth> and every vehicle set would be odd
19:33:54 <andythenorth> but if it helps...I'll do it :P
19:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it was really just meant for driving back and forth to keep the station rating up...
19:34:20 <andythenorth> I recal
19:34:21 <andythenorth> l
19:34:36 <andythenorth> I'm supporting bad behaviour with this vehicle :P
19:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's really because nobody has a clue how to use callback 145 :p
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19:37:47 <andythenorth> hmm
19:37:51 <andythenorth> forklifts go quite fast
19:37:58 <andythenorth> like 20km/h or so
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19:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like an appropriate speed to me
19:44:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have 7 out of 8 angles for a forklift from ISR
19:44:25 <andythenorth> and the other is not hard
19:44:33 <andythenorth> so I'll add it ;)
19:44:44 <andythenorth> the sprites are more like a 12t forklift than 1t
19:44:46 <andythenorth> but meh
19:45:14 <andythenorth> I also have some angles of a smaller forklift, but it's only about 8px long
19:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "distance between source and destination, in (dx+dy)/2" <-- who came up with that metric?
19:49:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. maximum value on a 256^2 map
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20:06:05 <planetmaker> d = (x**2 + y**2)**0.5 = 0.5*(2*0)/(0**2+y**2)*x
20:06:21 <planetmaker> ehm... wrong channel
20:10:22 <krinn> it was for the channel "#write0buthideitincomplexformula ?
20:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> we spent weeks with that kind of thing :p
20:12:09 <planetmaker> it was for the channel pm@idl>
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20:12:18 <planetmaker> "channel"
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20:38:20 <frosch123> night
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20:40:55 * Zuu thinks the NoAI api could mention the fact that DTRS will not remember the front tile you give it. Instead internally DTRS exist in only two directions. So when you ask to get the front tile of a DTRS, it may or may not be the tile you told that the front tile should be when you built it.
20:41:47 <Zuu> So each time you need to look on both "front" and "back" tile and try to figure out which one is the real front tile.
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20:45:56 * Zuu sees a new SuperLib function being created in his head
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20:46:28 * krinn wonder what is DTRS
20:46:39 <Zuu> DriveTroughRoadStop
20:47:19 * krinn hates DTRS, roads jammer
20:47:31 <Zuu> Depends where and how you build them.
20:47:44 <Zuu> But they do need more care than just droping them in the middle of a town.
20:48:18 <Zuu> On the upside, they allow usage of articulated vehicles and trams.
20:49:08 <Zuu> Trams, thoguh are very easy to sabotage.
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20:49:14 <__ln__>
20:49:38 <krinn> __ln__ apple too
20:50:08 <krinn> Zuu, it's the concept, having a vehcile wait on a road can only do jam
20:50:26 <krinn> except at end of road, and i hardly believe one check that before building it
20:50:43 <Zuu> Sure one can do.
20:50:50 <krinn> do they?
20:50:57 <Zuu> And one can enforce that it will stay that way as well.
20:51:12 <Zuu> AITile.IsRoadTile or similar.
20:51:25 <Zuu> Is a very basic version.
20:51:49 <Zuu> There is also the API call that checks if two tiles are interconnected with each other.
20:52:32 <Zuu> a function that interesting enough, did not exist when NoAI started. So back then you had to trust that tiles in towns were interconnected and build your own roads between towns to be sure that they were connected. :-D
20:52:41 <krinn> yep, but if none take care to check the road is a dead end before using the DTRS.... jam
20:53:27 <Zuu> As from what I've seen AIAI solves it quite good.
20:53:33 <krinn> the problem is that only 1 vehicle is need to jam a town
20:54:00 <Zuu> You again assume that you drop the DTRS on _existing_ road and don't build a bypass loop.
20:54:04 <krinn> i solve it quiet good: i don't also DTRS in town in my config :)
20:54:36 <Zuu> thats how I usually config my games too. :-)
20:54:39 <krinn> /s/also/allow
20:55:06 <planetmaker> not allowing dtrs on town roads imho defies 50% of their usefulness ;-)
20:55:13 * planetmaker has it always on
20:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the AIs need to be taught to provide non-blocking DTRS...
20:55:48 <krinn> not allowing them reduce jam by (any value, choose a big one) %
20:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, overtaking needs to be allowed
20:56:38 <krinn> i allow them outside town, because all ai i test show they can handle it with a queue and loop and some orders halfload...
20:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, AIs just spam more vehicles
20:57:02 <krinn> but in town, nope, no loop.... only i keep that vehicle loading and if i can't load everyone must wait behind me
20:58:15 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, yep, this doesn't help too, but they are smart generally, if spam get out, resell them, some are smarter enought to ask the sell when seeing the jam
20:58:36 <krinn> but as long as the DTRS remain, the problem will come back asap
20:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> DTRS are generally a bad idea in combination with full load
20:59:19 <krinn> lol DTRS are nearly a "don't battle me for my ressource or you'll get stuck with me"
21:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but allowing overtake should make many things easier
21:00:33 <andythenorth> bye
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21:00:35 <krinn> overtake ?
21:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> overtake is when you switch lanes to pass a slower vehicle.
21:01:48 <krinn> that's great, but doesn't work most of the time
21:02:05 <krinn> or you speak about a new thing ?
21:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the existing overtake mechanism has some severe limitations, that aren't actually needed most of the time...
21:03:36 <krinn> lol we should have an auto klaxxzon: stuck behind a vehicle for X time -> klaxxon, after 3 rings -> force vehicle in front to move his ass :)
21:03:46 <krinn> with that, i might allow DTRS in towns :)
21:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a klaxxon?!?
21:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and we have quantum effects
21:04:10 <krinn> car ring
21:04:26 <krinn> ringing in car when someone doesn't drive as he should
21:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what that means
21:05:02 <krinn> ah
21:05:11 <krinn> and i was thinking it might be german origin
21:05:25 <krinn> but spell might be klaxon
21:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what does the origin have to do with anything?
21:06:05 <krinn> it's the "hupe"
21:06:43 <krinn> i was thinking it was german origin, and so that we were sharing the name
21:07:06 <krinn> or word if you prefer than name
21:07:45 <krinn>
21:08:35 <krinn> might be buzzer in english, but i'm not sure
21:09:07 <michi_cc> It's a horn if you talk about a car.
21:11:30 <peter1138> yeah
21:11:33 <peter1138> and they're honked
21:13:05 <krinn> ah, i knew buzzer was more for a door
21:13:12 <krinn> none use klaxon ?
21:13:15 <krinn> the word ?
21:13:18 <SpComb> siren
21:13:40 <krinn> yep for police... we use sirne
21:14:00 <peter1138> klaxons have a specific sound
21:14:16 <SpComb> etymelogy
21:14:45 <krinn> might comes from a tm, or a company name
21:14:56 <peter1138> yes
21:15:00 <peter1138>
21:15:51 <krinn> oh good catch peter1138
21:16:10 <SpComb> how coincidental, I was just reading the same
21:19:41 <krinn> seem i for one time find something Eddi|zuHause didn't know
21:21:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like i know _everything_
21:21:25 <planetmaker> g'night
21:22:15 <SpComb> xkcd#903
21:22:16 <Ammler> what not?
21:22:41 <Ammler> ah
21:22:55 <krinn> Eddi|zuHause, still impressive, glad you have a limit :)
21:23:08 <Ammler> he is just fooling you
21:23:33 <krinn> lol could be yes
21:25:49 <krinn> pfff, just finish my terraforming code, tooked me time
21:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i already said back then that doesn't really apply to me ;)
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22:09:14 <glx> krinn: the generic term is "avertisseur sonore"
22:10:36 <krinn> or sirne
22:10:45 <krinn> but i'm used to klaxon
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22:18:35 <krinn> night all
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22:44:06 <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:44:22 <fjunike> night
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23:06:43 <fjunike> short code:
23:06:47 <fjunike> local var = 8; while (blah... { var++; print(var); } print(var);
23:07:29 <fjunike> why is the var at the 2nd print not reachable anymore?
23:08:09 <fjunike> i init the var BEVOR the while and loos it after the while loop
23:09:10 <__ln__> english only
23:10:13 <fjunike> ? it is not tai ;)
23:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> fjunike: you are probably missing something
23:25:01 <fjunike> yes a little bit more english knowleg ;)
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23:25:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that too :p
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23:27:37 <fjunike> try again tomorrow good night at all
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23:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> what remote island is .im?
23:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, it actually is an island :p
23:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "Isle of Man"
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