IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-27
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06:22:06 <Pikka> isn't it?
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06:53:49 <strider_ani> Hello o/
06:54:21 <strider_ani> Anyone online?
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07:03:21 <strider_ani> helloooooo?
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07:06:23 <dihedral> good morning
07:06:28 <strider_ani> Morning
07:07:26 <dihedral> bfrog, if you are interested in programming in java - i wr[oi]te joan :-P
07:09:51 <strider_ani> Does anyone want to play a multiplayer game with me? I'm pretty new at this.
07:10:12 <dihedral> sorry - i do not play :-P
07:10:36 <dihedral> but you might be interested in looking at the openttdcoop public game
07:10:54 <strider_ani> I tried that. I'm always too scared to do anything cus I suck
07:11:10 <dihedral> if you do not start you will not improve
07:11:23 <dihedral> suck as much as you like .... that sounds odd but yeah!
07:11:28 <dihedral> and others will help you improve
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07:13:10 <strider_ani> Ok I'll give it another shot I guess
07:13:56 <dihedral> i am sure you sucked pretty badly when you learned how to walk
07:14:03 <dihedral> but hey - you so far always got up :-P
07:14:59 <strider_ani> Thanks
07:17:08 <planetmaker> strider_ani: you can always start on the stable server
07:17:23 <planetmaker> which basically is a free-play server
07:17:36 <planetmaker> but still there's lots of helpful people around there usually
07:17:45 <planetmaker> moin also :-)
07:19:23 <strider_ani> Which on is that? I've only been able to find the coop one
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08:03:15 <planetmaker> strider_ani1: #openttdcoop has more than one server ;-)
08:03:50 <planetmaker> We have a 'stable' one which runs the latest of testing or stable releases. That's basically free and fair play. But a lot of people also have joint companies there. Depends really on the game
08:04:06 <planetmaker> and we have our 'main' server which runs a nightly version. Which is strictly coop only
08:04:18 <Alberth> moin planetmaker
08:04:38 <planetmaker> hello Alberth :-)
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08:06:19 <planetmaker> Alberth: the common idea iirc behind the citybuilder is to establish it as a goal. Similar to this hack:
08:06:46 <planetmaker> but I guess you know that in principle ;-)
08:06:47 <Alberth> ah, yet another goal :)
08:09:43 <Alberth> hmm, stockpiling for a city, not going to work in newgrf I think
08:10:16 <planetmaker> nope. Nor will the subsequent acceptance of a city work via newgrf
08:10:34 <planetmaker> like first establish cargo route for type A, then B, then C or similar
08:11:05 <planetmaker> because without the city wouldn't continue to grow or so.
08:11:19 <planetmaker> that's - iirc - how the citybuilders work. roughly speaking
08:12:03 <planetmaker> and from my feeble knowledge of a some-time-ago joining one of such servers
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08:15:24 <Alberth> cargo routes are already known as 'subsidies', so that would be feasible :)
08:18:13 <planetmaker> :-)
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08:18:40 <planetmaker> I guess the goal only cares about delivery to your 'claimed' town. Which you do by... I guess building your HQ there
08:19:07 <Alberth> good idea
08:19:32 <Alberth> but the city responding to your actions... could be nice
08:19:47 <planetmaker> yes, iirc they do that of sorts
08:20:32 <planetmaker> and it obviously is popular
08:21:52 <Alberth> anything 'goal' would be popular, probably. Western people seem very lost without a goal
08:22:12 <planetmaker> well. It gives you a sense of achievement
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08:24:19 <Alberth> yeah, even in our free time we want to win
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08:24:40 <planetmaker> of course ;-)
08:25:06 <planetmaker> especially those who didn't win in their non-free time
08:25:49 <fjunike> hi there
08:26:01 <Alberth> hi
08:26:39 <fjunike> a frind of my created a svegame with an ( in the name now the file is corrupted :)
08:26:58 <fjunike> did ottd check savegame names?
08:27:17 <Alberth> currently, I am not winning the industry generation battle :p
08:27:24 <planetmaker> no, it should not care, fjunike
08:27:57 <fjunike> ok so it isn't dau compatible
08:28:08 * planetmaker hands albert 42 new industries and the uniform distribution
08:28:18 <planetmaker> fjunike: what makes you think the game is not really corruptedß
08:28:19 <planetmaker> ?
08:28:26 <planetmaker> do you use the same version?
08:28:31 <planetmaker> patched version maybe?
08:28:40 <planetmaker> then all bets are off
08:29:02 <fjunike> no he cannot open the savegame again and he could not delete or rename the file
08:29:26 <planetmaker> your file system manager surely can rename it
08:29:28 <Alberth> planetmaker: I need less industries, not more :p The backoff algorithm is not good enough
08:29:41 <planetmaker> less.... hm
08:30:00 <Alberth> it is still trying too hard
08:30:25 <planetmaker> less trial runs?
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08:30:44 <planetmaker> but that's too easy, you'll have tried that
08:30:53 <fjunike> winexplorer told me file not readable
08:30:54 <Alberth> that just slows it down, it does not stop it from trying
08:31:52 <fjunike> but this is not my problem ;)
08:32:23 <fjunike> i just wont to know is ottd checking the savegamename bevor its stores the file to hdd
08:32:35 <Alberth> check how?
08:32:38 <Alberth> or what?
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08:32:45 <fjunike> illigal charakters
08:33:00 <planetmaker> fjunike: a ( is not an illegal character on most filesystems
08:33:06 <planetmaker> so that definitely is not the cause
08:33:20 <planetmaker> if the OS works all fine, OpenTTD cannot screw the filesystem
08:33:26 <Alberth> fjunike: illegal characters won't get through the OS
08:33:26 <planetmaker> as it uses the OS interfaces to write
08:34:07 <planetmaker> an undeletable file is an OS problem which OpenTTD cannot cause on its own
08:34:18 <planetmaker> it needs strong collaborators there ;-)
08:34:30 <fjunike> a ok the he did somthing he dont told me
08:34:52 <fjunike> ok thanks for that information
08:35:32 <planetmaker> and... we could possibly only tell what goes wrong if there's a reproducable way to achieve that
08:35:32 <planetmaker> which then should be reported to our bug tracker
08:35:41 <Alberth> openttd is multi-platform, so it only uses generic mechanisms for file maniplulations that work everywhere
08:35:46 <fjunike> ahhh it was an :
08:36:10 <fjunike> he want to make an :) into his filename
08:36:23 <planetmaker> try to delete the file from command prompt might help
08:36:36 <fjunike> same error
08:36:40 <Alberth> so winexplorer is the buggy party here :)
08:36:52 <fjunike> i know ;)
08:36:53 <Alberth> fjunike: with " around the name?
08:37:17 <fjunike> now just blah :).sav
08:37:32 <fjunike> the ":" musst be the problem
08:38:02 <fjunike> i will delete the file win an live linux later
08:38:11 <Alberth> I mean at the command prompt : del "bla:).sav"
08:38:11 <planetmaker> it's under windows interpreted as the drive letter postfix
08:38:38 <Alberth> good point, perhaps del "c:\path\bla:).sav" ?
08:38:44 <fjunike> i try to do that in the cmd but it dost work
08:39:04 <fjunike> dosnt
08:39:23 <Alberth> doesn't :)
08:39:24 <peter1138> weird that windows lets that filename be created
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08:40:12 <Alberth> probably windows doesn't even agree with itself about what a legal filename is :)
08:40:22 <planetmaker> most likely ;-)
08:40:53 <fjunike> k but if i try to rename a file a can not include a :
08:41:41 <Alberth> not with the program you use currently, at least
08:42:06 <planetmaker> maybe escaping the : by \ helps, too
08:42:33 <fjunike> i cant rename it
08:42:36 <Alberth> that's a directory separator :p
08:43:21 <peter1138> does a chkdsk pick it up?
08:44:11 <Alberth> or a del *.* in interactive mode?
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08:44:31 <peter1138> mm
08:44:45 <fjunike> i deletet it with an LiveLinux
08:44:52 <fjunike> works fine
08:45:02 <planetmaker> Alberth: I guess it's similarily nasty like a filename called "-" (without quotes)
08:45:17 <Noldo_> ... is also nice
08:45:25 <Alberth> planetmaker: nope: rm ./-
08:45:30 <planetmaker> the unaware users stumble overt these very hard
08:45:38 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes
08:45:44 <planetmaker> but... :-)
08:45:51 <Alberth> planetmaker: a file called * is much more fun :p
08:45:53 <peter1138> or rm -- -
08:45:59 <planetmaker> hehe
08:46:26 <peter1138> not so hard
08:46:29 <peter1138> $ ls "*"
08:46:29 <peter1138> ls: cannot access *: No such file or directory
08:47:13 <planetmaker> still, I keep away from filenames which start with - or contain * ;-)
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08:47:20 <peter1138> :)
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08:47:33 <Alberth> or a space :)
08:47:47 <planetmaker> I don't like space anywhere in filenames either, yes
08:48:18 <Alberth> hmm, a filename with a TAB would be fun too :p
08:48:21 <planetmaker> but they do exist, while filenames with beginning with - or a * anywhere don't exist on my disks
08:48:39 <planetmaker> (tab don't exist on my hdds either) ;-)
08:48:55 <planetmaker> but you could use \07 or so :-P
08:48:57 <peter1138> some people feel similarly about source code
08:49:58 <Alberth> which imho is better than trying to make a TAB character less than 8 characters wide
08:51:59 <peter1138> :set ts=... ;)
08:52:27 <Alberth> I know, but give the file to someone else and it breaks
08:52:31 <peter1138> i don't really care, as long as it's consistent
08:52:49 <peter1138> ah, but it doesn't break. they just get 8 character tabs
08:53:49 <Alberth> as specified in the file :p
08:53:50 <peter1138> i do rather dislike spaces for indents less than 8
08:54:01 <Alberth> why?
08:54:04 <peter1138> and then tabs for indents of 8
08:54:27 <peter1138> that's the only case where it really messes up
08:54:29 <Alberth> oh, yeah, mixing spaces and TABs is just bad
08:54:46 <dihedral> peter1138> and then tabs for indents of 8 <- that sounds like your tabs are converted to spaces :-P
08:55:34 <dihedral> i prefer indenting with tabs and aligning with spaces :-)
08:56:04 <planetmaker> ^
08:56:26 <planetmaker> though tab indentation makes alignment with spaces impossible, if indentation might change ;-)
08:57:45 <peter1138> no it doesn't
08:57:56 <peter1138> if it does you've mixed them incorrectly
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09:01:08 <Alberth> there are some things you cannot do with that policy, like indenting a sub struct { } and aligning the comments of the fields after it
09:01:16 <Alberth> but that does not happen too often
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09:03:31 <dihedral> ^^
09:03:41 <dihedral> Alberth, at least not in tcl, java, php :-P
09:03:45 <dihedral> or erlang
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09:09:08 <fjunike> so i try to make the same mistake on my pc
09:09:18 <fjunike> and saved a file with an :
09:10:16 <fjunike> ottd created a file with 0kb
09:10:55 <fjunike> windows donts allow to rename or delete it
09:12:26 <fjunike> the file i created named "test:test.sav" ottd creats a file "test "
09:14:46 <planetmaker> but blubber:nixalsverdruss is a valid filename here ;-)
09:15:24 <fjunike> not in windows
09:16:08 <fjunike> i never seen a : in a filename
09:16:53 <planetmaker> ingo@aeolus:~> cat blubber\:nix
09:16:53 <planetmaker> dks
09:17:29 <fjunike> \ / are not allow to
09:18:13 <planetmaker> yeah, windows is stupid ;-)
09:18:42 <fjunike> yes but most in use ;)
09:19:05 <planetmaker> fjunike: I suggest you report your problem to our bog tracker and then maybe one of the windows developer could look at it.
09:19:17 <planetmaker> Though I tend to believe it's a windows error, not an OpenTTD error
09:19:44 <fjunike> if my c++ would be better i would do it by my own
09:22:56 <__ln__> it's surprising if windows allows an application to create a filename with a :
09:23:53 <fjunike> it is
09:25:20 <__ln__> i've seen such a filename on ntfs, but it was created on linux, and chkdsk considered it an error
09:25:42 <Ammler> why?
09:25:44 <Pikka> who's your bog tracker?
09:26:06 <fjunike>
09:26:25 <Pikka> seems boggy
09:27:13 <planetmaker> :-)
09:27:40 <planetmaker> seems I learnt a new word
09:29:33 <Ammler> you learnt us :-P
09:30:06 <planetmaker> look it up in the dictionary ;-)
09:35:35 <Alberth> dihedral: I don't know about tcl and php, but java doesn't even have a '///<' style comment, so commenting fields is hopeless anyway
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10:09:15 <Terkhen> hello
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11:35:24 <dihedral> Alberth, they don't have that style of comment, no
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11:36:53 <dihedral> Osai?
11:37:06 <dihedral> oh
11:37:08 <dihedral> :-(
11:37:42 <planetmaker> the long-lost child on life-support ;-)
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11:40:57 <dihedral> yes
11:41:00 <dihedral> totally
11:41:17 <dihedral> but i thought he gets messages to his phone
11:41:27 <planetmaker> I guess he might
11:41:30 <dihedral> Osai, it would be quite nice of you to join IRC and say hello again ;-)
11:43:44 <planetmaker> I fear he's lost like so many good fellows... like Mucht. and Aali and Celestar and ... so on
11:43:52 <dihedral> :-(
11:43:55 <dihedral> :'(
11:44:04 <dihedral> the (IRC) world is just not the same anymore
11:44:20 <dihedral> s/IRC/OpenTTD/
11:44:21 <planetmaker> it's always been changing and the earlier times were always better :-P
11:44:38 <dihedral> "frher war die Zukunft auch besser" :-P
11:45:25 <planetmaker> :-P
11:45:32 <planetmaker> nevertheless pretty quiet currently
11:45:56 <dihedral> which is a real shame
11:46:14 <planetmaker> ^^
11:46:30 <planetmaker> there could be so many things added for big benefit...
11:46:58 <dihedral> ...
11:47:01 * dihedral hides in shame
11:48:10 <planetmaker> yacd, roadtypes, newgrf bridges, newgrf towns,... newgrf road stops, ... revamp of the newgame gui, font config. GUI zoom (aka extra zoom levels),....
11:48:19 <planetmaker> font config
11:48:33 <planetmaker> multiplayer scenario editor
11:48:44 <planetmaker> anyway, the SE offers many options for improvement
11:49:23 <planetmaker> :-P
11:49:24 <dihedral> aye
11:49:44 <dihedral> i knew you had multipile personalities
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11:50:10 <dihedral> goal/script framework could fit into the admin stuff
11:51:24 <planetmaker> IMHO yes. Depends on the approach
11:51:40 <planetmaker> could also fit in an extended AI framework
11:51:54 <planetmaker> or rather super-classed
11:52:01 <planetmaker> or however you want to call it ;-)
11:52:35 <Alberth> dihedral: goals should be nicely useable in SP too
11:53:04 <dihedral> Alberth, who says that the admin thingy needs to be disabled for SP?
11:53:28 <planetmaker> it needs the network support / stack enabled. Which currently it's not in SP
11:53:37 <dihedral> true
11:53:56 <Alberth> and Joe Average will not be able to set that up
11:54:03 <dihedral> but, the goal for money is already doable
11:54:13 <dihedral> Alberth, that is quite true
11:55:08 <Alberth> which reduces the goal idea either to some C++ code, or as part of the NoAI framework.
11:55:36 <Alberth> the former should declare the goal 'reached', imho. an admin thingie can then restart the server or whatever
11:56:27 <planetmaker> or a separate goal script API :-P
11:56:33 <dihedral> it could be a layer available to both (to certain extents)
11:57:02 <dihedral> so you can write goal handling in sq and also have the triggers available to the admin network ;-)
11:58:40 <dihedral> scenarios reworked sounds interesting too
11:58:59 <dihedral> sounds like a 'scripted scn' ;-)
11:59:29 <Alberth> that would be possible
12:00:12 * Alberth ponders whether "static FORCEINLINE int method()" makes sense
12:01:12 <dihedral> though the goal thing appeals most to my sense of that world ;-)
12:03:12 <Alberth> 'that world' ?
12:08:26 <dihedral> ^^
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12:08:51 <dihedral> i find gui stuff horrible
12:09:33 <Alberth> how much do you need ?
12:09:47 <Alberth> wouldn't it be mostly sq script?
12:09:58 <dihedral> exactly
12:10:21 <dihedral> i enjoy network stuff, the console, and think goal stuff would be quite fitting
12:11:03 <Alberth> on MP it is quite important, people want to win, even in their free time, apparently
12:11:13 <dihedral> :-D
12:12:00 <Alberth> but making it exclusively for MP (that is, by running an admin interface) would be a step too far, imho
12:12:42 <dihedral> but only making it available by sq scripts would be not far enough
12:13:23 <Alberth> ...
12:13:36 <Alberth> (ie what can you not do with a sq script?)
12:19:38 <dihedral> the point would not be what you could 'not' do
12:20:08 <dihedral> the point would be, limiting the goal stuff to sq scripts rather than also allowing goals to be defined by external tools
12:22:16 <Alberth> that needs a comm channel to the sq script, right?
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12:23:09 <Alberth> like a 'person' in the chat?
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12:25:00 <dihedral> Alberth, if i correctly understand what you mean, no
12:25:20 <dihedral> the admin network is a binary protocol of which chat is only one small part
12:26:28 <Alberth> you want to duplicate the scenario API both to sq and to admin?
12:26:57 <Alberth> how do you decide who is right when both are running?
12:27:10 <Alberth> how do you coordinate both?
12:27:14 <dihedral> the goal API
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12:27:39 <dihedral> i'd disable the admin network as soon as a sq script is running - an either or
12:27:49 <diego_ob> ola
12:27:57 <diego_ob> alguem fala portugues
12:28:05 <dihedral> nao
12:28:24 <diego_ob> thanks
12:28:25 <dihedral> fala ingles
12:28:32 <diego_ob> so pt br
12:28:43 <dihedral> 5 words :-D
12:29:02 <Alberth> 1 to go :)
12:29:05 <diego_ob> pra que serve esse chat? so p flar de openttd mesmo?
12:29:08 <dihedral> oi, tudo bem, boa noite, bom dia, ...
12:29:12 <__ln__> no hablamos portugues
12:29:41 <dihedral> "ich hab schon gegessen, danke" :-P
12:29:54 <diego_ob> eu não falo muito bem espanhol
12:30:09 <__ln__> hier essen oder mitnehmen?
12:30:13 <Alberth> diego_ob: if you want to talk to us, talk english
12:30:22 <diego_ob> pero creo que el terminal a vivir con ella
12:30:24 <dihedral> eu fala nao espanhol :-P
12:30:38 <dihedral> aye
12:31:08 <diego_ob> hasta chicos y chicas
12:31:18 <dihedral> and that still is not english
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12:32:04 <__ln__> would be so much simpler if everyone spoke finnish on this planet
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12:32:34 <Noldo_> really
12:32:40 <dihedral> but then we'd never have to start ... as all would be "finnish" :-P
12:33:16 <dihedral> Alberth, do you not think it could also make sense to have access to the goal api via the admin network?
12:34:28 <Alberth> I see no use, but my perception of 'admin' may be way off :)
12:34:44 <Alberth> ie I consider it more server management than game management
12:35:04 <Alberth> but in 'could', sure it might be of use.
12:36:26 <Eddi|zuHause> admin port may be used to tell someone they have reached a goal, but it can not influence the game (e.g. enforce town growth)
12:36:42 <Alberth> my main concern is that it duplicates functionality, and is not compatible with eachother, ie I cannot run my sq script over the admin interface
12:37:30 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: like 'you can monitor only'
12:38:04 <planetmaker> probably, considering network issues for SP, an extension / generalization of the NoAI API to additionally accomodate goal or event scripts might be sensible.
12:38:37 <Alberth> dihedral: do you think some-one will write a binary for the admin interface if he can write sq too?
12:39:01 <Eddi|zuHause> event/scenaro/tutorial scripts are definitely missing
12:39:35 <Alberth> tutorial is more invasive, as imho you should also be able to handle windows
12:39:57 <Alberth> which is doable, but then you can abuse that for making an assisting AI
12:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that would be a fairly integral part
12:40:49 <Alberth> copy/paste would be trivial :p
12:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> there would need to be measures for having this script only run server-side
12:43:11 <planetmaker> well. The NoAI API currently ensures that it's only run server-side
12:43:18 <dihedral> Alberth, the admin network allows bots to connect which already get updates on economy and player stats (if they so wish)
12:43:48 <dihedral> therefore allowing a connected bot to say, x money has been earned by player y - this ends the game, is not too far off
12:44:07 <dihedral> and, no - it cannot really influence the game with 'town growth' it just gets a butt load of info
12:44:10 <Alberth> except it breaks in SP
12:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, but if you want to display GUI dialogs, they need some way to transfer this data to the client, and receive an answer
12:44:47 <Alberth> if instead you have the SQ script decide 'x money has been earned by player y', and then the admin interface decides 'end of game', you are compatible
12:44:49 <planetmaker> of course
12:44:50 <dihedral> so in theory an API accessible to both could be interesting
12:45:13 <dihedral> Alberth, the info is already available to the admin interface
12:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm imagining a dialog like the vehicle prototype window, that can display text/graphics and return a yes/no/maybe/next tuesday answer
12:45:50 <Alberth> (14:45:50) Alberth: except it breaks in SP <-- dihedral
12:45:58 <dihedral> yes
12:46:03 <dihedral> hence, an API available to both
12:46:19 <dihedral> or - sq can extend notifications to admin port
12:46:33 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes. And that dialogue could be the first which is then exposed to that framework ;-)
12:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes. but the text and answer need to be built into some Cmd
12:47:15 <dihedral> that way you could ensure only one sq script to be running too
12:47:38 <planetmaker> Yes... which might be the problem.
12:50:03 <Alberth> how?
12:50:16 <Alberth> oh, 64 bit of data :)
12:51:17 <dihedral> Alberth, what do you think of the goal api allowing communication with a bot connected to the admin network?
12:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i think there was a way to transfer a string
12:52:27 <dihedral> would an int not suffice?
12:52:48 <Alberth> dihedral: communication between a bot and what?
12:52:54 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: to transfer the whole text of a dialog window, and specify the return values?
12:54:30 <dihedral> oh - yes :-P
12:54:32 <Alberth> dihedral: giving out goals reached from the sq to the bot, I see use for that. The other way around, much much much less use, if at all
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12:55:08 <LordAro> moin
12:55:12 <dihedral> not even a staging goals? i.e. define 10 goals which all need to be reached and that in orders based on whatever? :-P
12:55:37 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, what I envision are dialogues as the new vehicle available one (which take parameter engineID and VehicleType) and which could then be referenced to as the newgrf messages now
12:55:44 <planetmaker> thus not the whole string needs declaration
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12:55:54 <Alberth> welcome dear lord aro, please enter our humble virtual house
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12:55:59 <planetmaker> OpenTTD could then introduce (within its own code) other such dialogues
12:56:30 <LordAro> Alberth: :)
12:56:49 <Alberth> dihedral: that's about the only use I can see, but I am not convinced writing that in the same sq script wouldn't be easier
12:56:50 <dihedral> Alberth, the idea sounds good :-)
12:56:51 <planetmaker> Another dialogue could be like "Town needs {string} in order to continue growth"
12:56:52 <planetmaker> etc pp
12:57:10 <planetmaker> and the script's task would be to time these conditions
12:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: for a tutorial-type script there may be use for displaying a sprite, like "press this button: {sprite}"
12:57:46 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: tutorials would be locally only, imho
12:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, but that should use the same infrastructure
12:58:38 <dihedral> however, i find it could be quite interesting if a server did not just have a single goal to reach
12:58:49 <dihedral> and if goals were 'randomly' distributed amongst players
12:58:57 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, a tutorial has extended requirements
12:59:47 <planetmaker> and yes, a tutorial should probably be only local. And could be another extension to a noai api - only active in SP
13:02:25 <Alberth> dihedral: sure, but why should a bot decide that? (I am not against such a comm channel between bot & sq, I just see no use for it, as anyhing you want can be programmed in sq too)
13:03:52 <dihedral> the bot is external - i.e. it can get info from a website, database, irc, <whatever> and base desisions on anything
13:04:14 <dihedral> sq uses openttd cpu time, and has no such external data
13:04:41 <Alberth> goal monitoring should not take much cpu time :)
13:04:43 <dihedral> the bot has from a programming point of view way more methods for input
13:05:03 <Alberth> but as said, I am not against it
13:06:09 <Alberth> I just expect the number of uses to be less than 10 or so :p
13:06:19 <dihedral> sadly that is the case, yes :-P
13:11:40 <LordAro> dbg: [misc] [utf8] unknown string command character 9
13:11:42 <LordAro> dbg: [misc] [utf8] unknown string command character 13
13:11:50 <LordAro> how to solve these errors?
13:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> those are CR/LF?
13:12:54 <LordAro> maybe, unknown
13:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> no, 9 is tab, i think
13:13:06 <Alberth> true
13:13:16 <Alberth> and 13 is CR
13:14:04 * Alberth ponders about the meaning of "string command"
13:14:26 <LordAro> so, basically, how to strip these characters from a string/char?
13:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the special characters like "gender", "plural", "colour" etc., i believe
13:15:01 <Alberth> move everything after it one position to the left
13:15:11 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I was afraid of that :p
13:15:54 <Alberth> let's use some valid ASCII for encoding non-ASCII things
13:16:32 <Belugas> helloo
13:17:50 <Alberth> oolleh
13:18:05 <LordAro> hoeoll
13:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> oo hell
13:18:30 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that bad? :p
13:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i might have mild fever or something
13:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> can't concentrate on anything
13:19:34 <Alberth> it's the summer, you have to stop working
13:20:37 <Alberth> LordAro: skip any character c that is !IsPrintable(c) || c != '\n' ?
13:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the weather isn't really summer-like either
13:22:10 <Alberth> LordAro: although you could also expand 9 to spaces.
13:23:01 <LordAro> Alberth: where would i put that in the code?
13:23:20 <Alberth> during or after file reading
13:23:22 <dihedral> LordAro, what are you up to?
13:23:34 <LordAro> (newgrf) readme viewer :)
13:23:42 <dihedral> ah :-)
13:24:06 <LordAro> it's getting close (?) to completion
13:24:23 <LordAro> well, it prints (some of) the readme anyway :)
13:25:12 <Alberth> you know that 80% of the result takes 20% of the effort, right? :p
13:25:33 <LordAro> shh! don't dent my good mood :)
13:25:42 <Alberth> (although you are further than that, I think)
13:26:14 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: <-- you may like that
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13:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "Two guys are counterfeiting 150€ bills. one guy says to the other: 'hey, go to that ice cream shop over there and buy an ice cream for 1€ with this bill.' the other guy comes back, first guy asks: 'what did you get in return?' second guy says: 'two 70€ bills and a 9€ coin'"
13:29:52 <LordAro> :)
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13:33:17 <LordAro> quak
13:34:24 <frosch123> moin
13:34:35 <dihedral> :-)
13:34:42 <LordAro> Alberth: using IsPrintable(), how would i strip the CRs and the TABs?
13:35:04 <planetmaker> hi, you nice, early green pont creature :-)
13:36:09 <frosch123> afoon planetmaker
13:37:04 <Alberth> LordAro: given the output, I'd say CR and TAB are neither IsPrintable(), nor equal to '\n'. Thus if you skip characters as proposed, they will be dropped automagically.
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13:38:30 <planetmaker> but I guess a frosch is "never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to" ;-)
13:38:47 <LordAro> Alberth: so a for loop on the char? (thats the only way i can think of doing it)
13:39:16 <Alberth> would be fine, I think
13:39:48 <Alberth> planetmaker: he varies his arrival time to leave us guessing :p
13:39:56 * Alberth waves hi to frosch123 :)
13:40:14 <LordAro> planetmaker: a frosch comes from Valinor?
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13:43:00 <frosch123> hai albert :)
13:43:18 <frosch123> planetmaker: i did not feel like starting the next task at work
13:43:38 <frosch123> it is easier to start annoying stuff in the morning when i am still somewhat sleepy
13:44:47 <fjb> Moin
13:44:53 <planetmaker> :-)
13:45:04 <planetmaker> yeah, it spoils otherwise the whole rest of the day. I fully understand
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13:46:51 <planetmaker> moin fjb
13:54:34 <LordAro> while i'm still here: "dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer" <-- how long is the destination buffer?
13:56:16 <planetmaker> wild guess: 1024. But... might be different.
14:07:51 <Alberth> much shorter
14:08:34 <Alberth> it is just a warning that your version string is too long to fit in a network packet.
14:09:21 <LordAro> version string?
14:09:30 <LordAro> where did that come from?
14:09:33 <LordAro> :)
14:09:39 <Alberth> ever noticed the title bar of the openttd window?
14:09:58 <Pikka> it's made of string
14:10:14 <LordAro> i would have thought it would have coped with a hg build + 'M'
14:10:40 <Alberth> yes, and that is too long :)
14:11:08 <LordAro> odd
14:11:24 <LordAro> i'll remember to qrefresh before building then
14:13:10 <LordAro> still not sure how to use IsPrintable()... how would i get rid of the characters in the char?
14:13:30 <Alberth> it's not a problem, just a warning that your version string is not sent completely over the network. That does not matter, since you are not going to do any MP gaming with the patched version anyway :)
14:13:56 <Alberth> what does the file loading routine look like today?
14:14:44 <Alberth> basically by not copying the 'wrong' characters
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14:49:08 <LordAro> back shortly
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14:50:03 *** sets mode: +ov Belugas Belugas
14:54:11 <Pikka> good morning Belugas
14:54:16 <Pikka> and Corn Baron
14:55:47 <Belugas> hello Pikka :) hope life is good for you down under!
14:55:57 <Pikka> splendid :)
14:56:19 <Belugas> funny though... we say down under. how do you describe "us" ?
14:57:24 <Pikka> we don't
14:57:26 <planetmaker> Belugas, "down under" of course ;-)
14:57:28 <Pikka> at least not in that manner
14:58:56 <Belugas> lol at planetmaker :D
14:59:14 <Belugas> Pikka, but you do have a designation, right?
14:59:34 <Pikka> the northern hemisphere?
15:00:07 * planetmaker still has such map at home; I got it somewhere in macquarie...
15:00:31 <Belugas> right. makes sens. thanks :)
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15:58:12 <Pikka> wut
15:58:26 <Pikka> I can't remember how to get an aircraft to have a default cargo other than passengers
16:00:22 <Pikka> and can't see where the difference is in my ancient NFO
16:02:54 <planetmaker> <-- Pikka
16:02:58 <planetmaker> might be helpful :-)
16:04:06 <planetmaker> so probably in the refit masks
16:04:17 <Pikka> well
16:04:27 <Pikka> the refit masks are the same in the one that works as the one that doesn't work
16:05:00 <Pikka> the one that doesn't work has "all but passengers" as refittable cargos, but still "passengers" as default
16:05:06 <Rubidium> nfo version differs?
16:05:38 <Pikka> they're in the same grf
16:08:58 <Pikka> hmm
16:09:15 <Pikka> the aircraft that doesn't work has an "extended" vehicle ID (4D)
16:09:26 <Pikka> if I change it to (10), it works
16:09:50 <planetmaker> so it doesn't inherit any properties from a default aircraft
16:09:54 <Pikka> yse
16:10:01 <Pikka> but I can't see any properties that I'm missing setting
16:10:07 <planetmaker> thus you set some property different from the default...
16:10:21 <planetmaker> well :-) I can't possibly guess ;-)
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16:11:39 <Pikka> well it can't be that I'm setting it different from the default, because all I'm doing to make it work is changing the vehicle IDs, not changing any properties
16:12:09 <Pikka> also, according to that table at least, a situation where the default cargo for an aircraft is not a fittable cargo should be impossible to engineer in GRF
16:12:37 <Pikka> I'll cook up a test grf and see if the bug is reproducable in a simpler file, and file a bug report if it is so.
16:12:56 <planetmaker> Pikka, yes. But if one vehicle has ID xy < max_default_aircraftID, it'll have all properties defined
16:13:02 <planetmaker> while the other one won't.
16:13:11 <Pikka> yes
16:13:19 <Pikka> but there's no "default cargo" property for aircraft
16:13:19 <planetmaker> thus an unset property could make a difference
16:13:36 <Pikka> and I don't have any unset properties afaics
16:13:37 <planetmaker> uhm... for the default aircraft there is
16:13:39 <Hirundo> Original aircraft have CT_INVALID as default cargo, so they use the first refittable
16:14:11 <Pikka> planetmaker; okay, there's no default cargo property in the NFO spec for aircraft
16:14:25 <Pikka> if OTTD has one, you've forgotten to tell the rest of us about it :)
16:14:27 <Hirundo> I guess aircraft with ID > max_original are zeroed upon allocation, so they default to passengers (which have ID 0)
16:14:48 <Pikka> sounds plausible Hirundo
16:15:40 <Hirundo> Whether this is a bug in the spec or in OpenTTD I leave open for debate :)
16:15:57 * planetmaker considers it a documentation lapse at most
16:16:21 <planetmaker> default vehicles will have values set. Each vehicle might have a different one set. So...
16:16:42 <planetmaker> and new vehicles have everything zeroed
16:16:48 <planetmaker> (and not only vehicles)
16:16:54 <Pikka> okaty
16:16:57 <Pikka> *okay
16:17:12 <Pikka> so how do I set this property in NFO then?
16:17:41 <Pikka> if it is merely a case of missing documentation...
16:19:02 <Hirundo> I can find no trace of it in the documentation
16:19:11 <Hirundo> s/documentation/openttd source
16:19:16 <planetmaker>
16:19:24 <Hirundo> and not in the documentation also, so I guess it's not there
16:19:33 <Pikka> yes planetmaker, been there done that
16:19:40 <planetmaker> :-)
16:19:45 <Pikka> this chart assumes that aircraft have a default cargo of "first refittable"
16:19:53 <Pikka> which for extended IDs, they don't
16:20:34 <Hirundo> Pikka: Are you able to compile ottd on your computer?
16:20:52 <Hirundo> or alternatively, run win32 binaries?
16:21:00 <Pikka> I can run win32 binaries
16:21:01 <planetmaker> Pikka, and you say, your aircraft don't have that?
16:21:54 <Pikka> apparently not, planetmaker, since with an ID > default they are showing "passengers" (cargo 0) as the default cargo, even though that's not an option in the refit mask
16:22:18 <Pikka> but with an ID < 0 they are showing "coal" (cargo 1), which is an option
16:22:37 <Pikka> *ID <= default, not 0 :P
16:22:50 <Pikka> you know what I meant
16:24:16 <Hirundo> Pikka: I'll try to send you a patched binary, could you test with that?
16:24:27 <Pikka> can do
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16:29:30 <Hirundo> Pikka:
16:29:35 <Hirundo> <afk for dinner
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16:34:33 <Pikka> it doesn't run very happy.. lots of errors about AI :) but yes, that works, the aircraft now carries coal by default
16:38:32 <planetmaker> as long as it'll have a pikka running happy ;-)
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16:41:13 <Pikka> (that said, a default other than first available would be nice... if you felt like exposing that property to NFO, planetmaker... ;))
16:42:42 <planetmaker> I definitely agree with "that would be nice" :-)
16:42:59 <planetmaker> any suggestion how that should be exposed, though?
16:43:13 <planetmaker> a new property?
16:44:23 <planetmaker> though what would one do, if that specified cargo is not available? Again take the "first available"?
16:44:32 <planetmaker> or would that property be a list? Or...?
16:47:03 <planetmaker> maybe a list of three CTT entries.
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16:48:55 <frosch123> planetmaker: if any, make it consistent with other vehicles
16:49:04 <frosch123> and yes, looks like a bug in ottd
16:49:36 <planetmaker> frosch123, but other vehicles have the same issue of only having 'first refitable'. Or do I miss something?
16:50:45 <frosch123>
16:50:53 <frosch123> should probably put it on the wiki
16:51:06 <planetmaker> :-)
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16:53:22 <frosch123> <- Hirundo: did you do the same?
16:55:32 <frosch123> planetmaker: btw. the last time we discussed that topic, andy wanted that the cargo defining grf defines the default cargo, or so :p
16:56:05 <planetmaker> that doesn't make sense
16:56:35 <planetmaker> because supder-duper-truck A could well want oil as default cargo while super-giant-duper-truck B would want COAL
16:57:19 <planetmaker> at least as vehicle grf author I'd not understand at all why the industry grf would define default cargos ;-)
16:57:20 <frosch123> well, it started with refittability
16:57:49 * Sevalecan is a naughty boy.
16:57:55 * Sevalecan disabled train depot speed limits ;)
16:58:31 <frosch123> Sevalecan: if you upload a diff to the forums, please name it "better depot vehicle speed"
16:58:44 <frosch123> or something similar. but please include "better" :)
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17:00:05 <Sevalecan> hehe
17:00:25 <frosch123> do you know sirkoz?
17:01:53 <Sevalecan> I do not
17:04:11 <frosch123> he did several things in the past to disable certain "limitations" of the gameplay. and usually he includes some "better" :)
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17:04:55 <LordAro> right, where was i?
17:05:25 <Sevalecan> hah, nice.
17:05:56 <LordAro> oh yes, patch: <-- Alberth
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17:09:10 <uni4dfx> Hi guys, can someone guide me through in creating a new town name grf?
17:12:30 <Alberth> someone is not here atm, but we may be able to
17:12:37 <andythenorth> hola
17:12:41 <andythenorth> aloha
17:12:43 <andythenorth> etc
17:12:44 <Alberth> hi andy
17:12:54 * andythenorth ponders stupid questions
17:12:55 <Alberth> LordAro: and it does not crash?
17:13:51 <LordAro> no, although that version freezes because i removed free(readme_char) as i didn't really know where to put it
17:14:35 <Alberth> uni4dfx:
17:15:05 <LordAro> actually, i think it does crash (because of that) but it freezes on writing crash.sav (no idea why)
17:15:54 <Alberth> readme_char? is not mentioned in that patch
17:16:13 <uni4dfx> Alberth right, so the way i understand this is: i have to create a town list in NML and then somehow compile it into a grf?
17:16:23 <LordAro> or whatever, i can't remember exactly, and i'm too lazy to look :)
17:16:38 <Alberth> uni4dfx: basically yes :)
17:17:08 <uni4dfx> Alberth is there a sample file? I tried to find one but no luck.
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17:17:29 <krinn> hi
17:17:58 <krinn> AITile.GetComplementSlope() is suppose to return what ? Can only get 65535 as answer
17:18:52 <Alberth> uni4dfx: seems to be one of the simpler ones
17:19:09 <uni4dfx> Alberth perfect, thanks
17:19:33 <Alberth> uni4dfx: select a sub-project, click 'repository', and browse for an NML file :)
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17:20:42 <Alberth> krinn: doxygen comment says: The complement of a slope. This means that all corners that weren't raised, are raised, and visa versa.
17:20:49 <uni4dfx> Alberth On the website?
17:21:18 <Alberth> uni4dfx: yes, although you can also pull the repository, and browse on your local disk
17:22:21 <Alberth> krinn:
17:23:21 <Alberth> uni4dfx: as for making a grf, download and install NML, and run your nml file through the program.
17:24:00 <uni4dfx> Alberth alright sounds straight-forward enough
17:24:11 <Alberth> uni4dfx: if you publish the grf, please use a open source license, and also publish the source
17:25:02 <Alberth> uni4dfx: if you want a repo at the site (just like the many other town name grfs), your license must be GPL2
17:25:13 <krinn> thx alberth, i know the doc, just the implementation keep failing
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17:25:29 <krinn> as the complement return is always 65535
17:25:41 <Wolf01> hello
17:25:42 <Pikka> there are no stupid questions, andy, only stupid people who ask questions. :)
17:25:50 <uni4dfx> Alberth yeah no problem, i wasn't planning on keeping it to myself :)
17:26:04 <Alberth> krinn: and that is the complement of the tile you query?
17:26:10 <Alberth> hello Wolf01
17:26:26 <krinn> depend, tried on some tiles, not flat one of course :p
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17:26:41 <Alberth> krinn: flat ones should also work :p
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17:27:39 <krinn> says you have tile with S up others down, i would just expect answer like NWE from it
17:27:50 <planetmaker> Alberth: uni4dfx: basically any open source license works on the DevZone
17:27:58 <planetmaker> We just don't accept closed-source projects
17:28:28 <planetmaker> <-- I'd not have a problem with any of the licenses I discussed there ;-)
17:28:56 <planetmaker> and there are more, if desired. Though yes, I'd for the sake of simplicity advocate CC-BY or GPL v2+
17:29:16 <Alberth> krinn: if ((slope & ~SLOPE_ELEVATED) != 0) return SLOPE_INVALID; <-- looks like you get SLOPE_INVALID
17:29:32 <frosch123> yeah, the slope may not be steep
17:29:51 <krinn> yep 65535 looks a good value to return SLOPE_INVALID
17:30:12 <krinn> what does ~ mean ?
17:30:23 <Alberth> it is, in fact, its value is 0xFFFF :)
17:30:32 <krinn> :)
17:30:35 <uni4dfx> OK, does 5000 town names sound excessive?
17:30:35 <Alberth> ~ all bits inverted
17:30:44 <planetmaker> uni4dfx: not at all
17:30:56 <planetmaker> 2000 might be needed by one single game
17:31:05 <uni4dfx> it's literally every town name in the country lol
17:31:08 <Alberth> uni4dfx: you need about 3500 max
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17:31:20 <planetmaker> :-) Ok, even more
17:31:57 <planetmaker> uni4dfx: one can, of course, also or additionally or alternatively supply somewhat random town names in the style of your language
17:32:04 <planetmaker> I consider that quite fun :-)
17:32:19 <krinn> basically this is just slope & 0 so ? i suppose SLOPE_ELEVATED is 1111 (as NWSE raised)
17:32:35 <uni4dfx> planetmaker yeah, but it might be better to do that as a separate project
17:32:36 <planetmaker> those town names are then composed of name parts which you supply and you define the rules by which they're composed
17:32:53 <planetmaker> uni4dfx: not separate, if it's the same language. But possibly in a later version
17:33:05 <planetmaker> one single town name newgrf can supply several alternative town name sets
17:33:17 <uni4dfx> ok, but i'll start with the actual names first
17:33:24 <planetmaker> i.e. the GermanTownNames supply 6 townname sets :-)
17:33:27 <Alberth> krinn: slope & ~SLOPE_ELEVATED becomes non-zero if you have a steep slope
17:33:40 <uni4dfx> so what does the number in this statement represent: text("name1", 1)
17:33:49 <planetmaker> it's a probability
17:33:57 <Alberth> planetmaker: I checked the german town names, but it was too complicated to link here :)
17:34:00 <krinn> doh, so all my tests were done with steep slope maybe
17:34:02 <planetmaker> relative to the other numbers used along other town names
17:34:16 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, I'd not have them linked either :-)
17:34:30 <planetmaker> I'd have linked DutchTowns, too :-)
17:34:40 <Alberth> uni4dfx:
17:34:58 <uni4dfx> Alberth Yeah i'm looking at that
17:35:07 <Alberth> good :)
17:36:05 * Alberth ponders a better name than 'text'
17:36:49 <planetmaker> item?
17:36:50 <planetmaker> entry?
17:37:12 <Alberth> it's only a part
17:37:49 <Alberth> I was thinking 'name', but it does not sound right either
17:37:55 <krinn> SLOPE_ELEVATED - slope should gave me expected result no, even with steep slope ?
17:38:46 <Alberth> unlikely, subtracting bitmasks usually does not work as expected
17:38:47 <planetmaker> well... actually 'text' is not that wrong. Because it clearly indicates it's a text item
17:38:52 <planetmaker> opposed to a name block
17:39:30 <krinn> well, not the result itself, but its nibble is trustable
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17:45:34 <LordAro> Alberth? did you take a look at the patch?
17:45:52 <Alberth> I was just about to do that
17:46:00 <LordAro> :)
17:46:09 <LordAro> don't let me stop you
17:51:40 <krinn> ok : i have add a check on tile with isHalftileSlope + IsSteepSlope -> for slope 2 i get false false 65535
17:52:19 <krinn> GetComplementSlope looks bork (but i have openttd 1.0.4 here)
17:52:46 <planetmaker> uhm... why do you use such outdated version?
17:53:30 <uni4dfx> what should i put in as grfid?
17:53:45 <krinn> i'm at work, that computer must stay stable as long as possible, so execpt security i don't update
17:54:09 <planetmaker> uni4dfx: two or three letters for your initials. Last (4th) letter: index into your overall newgrfs already produced
17:54:09 <krinn> but this was doing same with 1.1.1 at home
17:54:11 <planetmaker> which would be 0
17:54:27 <planetmaker> overall it needs to be of course 4 letters exactly
17:54:29 <krinn> just now i'm sure my tests weren't failing because of steep or halftile slope tests
17:55:45 <krinn> lol wait i think i found the problem :)
18:02:19 <Hirundo> frosch123: Yes, my patch was the same, except for a slightly different wording of the comment
18:06:15 <krinn> nope doesn't work
18:06:38 <krinn> what i don't get is if you invert bits for SLOPE_ELEVATED, you will then just get 0
18:06:46 <Rubidium> what tile number are you trying?
18:07:05 <krinn> you can invert bit to mask "slope", but not SLOPE_ELEVATED as this one should be NWSE (so 1111)
18:07:25 <krinn> a random at start screen, must be center tile
18:07:43 <krinn> SLOPE_ELEVATED should be 1111 inverting that = 0000 = 0
18:07:58 <krinn> and 0 & 0 = 0 + 1 & 0 = 0 -> always returning 0 so
18:08:28 <Rubidium> center as in GetMapSize() / 2 ?
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18:09:10 <krinn> 30594 -> 33402
18:09:25 <krinn> from to (decimal) 30594 -> 33402
18:11:10 <Rubidium> the regression test at least shows CompletementSlope does not always return -1 / 65535
18:11:14 <Rubidium> @base 10 16 30594
18:11:14 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 7782
18:11:20 <Rubidium> @base 10 16 33402
18:11:20 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 827A
18:11:50 <Rubidium> so not obviously a map edge :(
18:12:19 <krinn> nope told you i pickup main start screen (because i don't want to run everywhere on map to see my tests)
18:13:26 <krinn> so what ? slopeX & 0 = 0 no way to get complement slope from that
18:14:10 <Rubidium> the slope complement code looks okay based on the regression test, so the question is whether something might be wrong in your code
18:15:14 <Wolf01> sloped-something or step slopes?
18:15:38 <Rubidium> so can you show us some actual bits of code that go wrong?
18:15:54 <krinn> local slope=AITile.GetSlope(tile);
18:15:54 <krinn> local compSlope=AITile.GetComplementSlope(slope);
18:17:06 <krinn> hard to make an error, i have just add
18:17:19 <Rubidium> and how's tile set?
18:17:25 <krinn> it's a tile
18:17:30 <krinn> grab from an AITileList
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18:18:23 <krinn> wait i look if i can package it to send you my tests
18:18:35 <Rubidium> what kind of architecture does your computer run?
18:18:35 <andythenorth> tum te tum te tum
18:18:39 <andythenorth> what to do next
18:18:41 <krinn> gentoo
18:18:44 <krinn> 32bits
18:20:19 <uni4dfx> Alberth ok how's this
18:20:29 <Rubidium> neither is its architecture; powerpc, arm and x86 are
18:20:34 <krinn> x86
18:21:19 <krinn> little endian :)
18:21:24 <Rubidium> so no endianness blaming :(
18:22:33 <Rubidium> did you compile OpenTTD yourself? I guess you did since it's Gentoo. If so, try "make regression"
18:23:41 <krinn> going to grab 1.1.1 to see (but it was also failing @ home with it)
18:24:30 <krinn> is ELEVATED_SLOPE = 254 ?
18:25:18 <frosch123> it's 15
18:25:32 <krinn> yep sorry 15
18:25:40 <krinn> so inverting bit for 15 = 0
18:25:46 <krinn> and anything & 0 = 0
18:25:59 <krinn> better check the test alberth shown, it will only gave 0
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18:26:06 <frosch123> no, inverting bits of 15 is 0xfffffff0
18:26:09 <krinn> meanwhile i'll grab 1.1.1
18:26:19 <krinn> ah
18:26:21 <krinn> ok
18:35:07 <uni4dfx> planetmaker could you look at the file and tell me how many stupid mistakes i've made?
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18:36:07 * Rubidium wonders whether planetmaker actually reads that
18:36:28 *** ^Spike^ has quit IRC
18:36:35 <Rubidium> or said differently: he might pretty well ping timeout any time soon
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18:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium is clairvoyant!! :p
18:38:26 <Alberth> uni4dfx: looks ok at first sight, what does nmlc think of it?
18:38:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the coop server has quite a bad uptime, it seems :p
18:38:36 <frosch123> #coop free zone?
18:38:48 <uni4dfx> Alberth haven't installed it yet
18:40:07 <krinn> it work with 1.1.2rc1
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18:42:46 <Rubidium> uni4dfx: besides the grfid not being 4 long and english.lng missing it seems to at least compile okay
18:46:09 <krinn> erf found it, was using old version of script, and newer one i'm working on when using r1.1.2
18:46:31 <krinn> work on both now
18:47:18 <Alberth> I would expect that, tiles and slopes have not changed in ages :)
18:54:31 <uni4dfx> Rubidium what's supposed to be in english.lng ?
18:55:47 <krinn> Alberth, yep, was working on copy, installing rc1.1.2 made me lnk to good one
18:58:17 <Alberth> uni4dfx: something like
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19:00:03 <andythenorth> que tal?
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19:02:03 <MorgyN> Hiya, I'm getting regular short pauses (temporary freezes) in openttd 1.1.1 under windows 7 x64, is this a known issue?
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19:02:23 <Rubidium> lots of AIs?
19:02:37 <Rubidium> or rather, are there AIs running?
19:02:39 <MorgyN> happens with 32bit ottd and 64bit, and under compatibility mode (xp sp3)
19:02:48 <MorgyN> No, happens even on the menu
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19:03:05 <MorgyN> (was attempting to connect to a multiplayer server, other people have no issue)
19:03:46 <MorgyN> hardware is a ati 6870, intel i7-940, 6gig ram. only apps running IE and Steam.
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19:03:54 <Rubidium> you mean you were in the server list window?
19:04:09 <MorgyN> not even in the server list window. with the demo map playing
19:04:18 <MorgyN> happens seemingly everywhere
19:04:46 <Rubidium> was the music running?
19:04:49 <MorgyN> yes
19:04:59 <MorgyN> it never paused
19:05:43 <Rubidium> hmm, so it didn't happen when music changed :(
19:05:55 <Rubidium> (... didn't only happen ...)
19:06:22 <MorgyN> no it appears to work for 10-30 seconds, then pauses for 5-20 seconds and repeats that process
19:06:32 <MorgyN> is there cli options to disable sound?
19:07:02 <Rubidium> -s null -m null (both sound and music)
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19:07:25 <MorgyN> ok will try that 2seconds
19:08:18 <frosch123> also try -b 32bpp-optimized
19:09:05 <Rubidium> I have no clue what would cause the behaviour you describe. Problem is that as far as I know it works for many many others, which means it has to do with something specific to your computer. The real question to that is: "what?", but that's sadly enough only something you can figure out. Maybe it's the antivirus interfering or something?
19:09:10 <MorgyN> No change with disabling sound, will try your suggestion frosch123
19:09:25 <MorgyN> I have no antivirus =(
19:09:58 <LordAro> thats an _extremely_ bad idea...
19:10:04 <krinn> try in safe mode
19:10:40 <MorgyN> I've run without antivirus since msdos, i'm fine =)
19:11:11 <planetmaker> that's what she says ;-)
19:11:17 <MorgyN> Still freezing with -b 32bpp-optimized
19:11:19 <LordAro> since you have no antivirus, the problem is as likely caused by a virus
19:11:37 <LordAro> no other applications are showing similar symptoms?
19:11:42 <MorgyN> None
19:11:58 <MorgyN> And no, trust me when I say it's not a virus.
19:12:15 <MorgyN> I've had two virus infections in 30 years.
19:12:36 <Wolf01> how can you tell that if you can't check it?
19:12:38 <krinn> try safemode then, it will discard unwanted service & app
19:12:50 <MorgyN> I'll give safemode a try.
19:13:02 <planetmaker> any desktop manager / changing backgrounds?
19:13:06 <davis> what happens to be the problem? , sorry for cross-chatting
19:13:30 <Rubidium> unexplained temporary freezes of OpenTTD
19:13:31 <MorgyN> planetmaker: no, this is a raw gaming system, only things installed are games.
19:13:52 <MorgyN> (hence mibbit)
19:14:19 <MorgyN> brb with conclusion from safemode.
19:14:24 <planetmaker> MorgyN: yes. But like keyboard "drivers" etc...
19:14:26 <davis> goodluck
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19:27:52 <MorgyN> It ran without freezing under safemode, but was unable to test networking... although i could have tried safemode with networking... hindsight
19:28:08 <davis> restart! :D
19:28:46 <MorgyN> downloading updated graphics drivers atm, but as far as I know openttd doesn't use any 3d features of the cards?
19:28:53 <Rubidium> so it's, likely video, driver related
19:28:57 <MorgyN> so i'd be suprised if thier 2d is odd
19:29:05 <MorgyN> but trying it to eliminate it
19:29:32 <Rubidium> given 2d isn't used that much it isn't tested much either
19:29:46 <Rubidium> they are even dumping stuff that worked perfectly before
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19:31:24 <MorgyN> But surely all the devs are openttd players and use it as part of thier test suite =)
19:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "all the devs" likely have no win7
19:32:56 <Hirundo> I'm not sure that "all the devs" actually play much either
19:33:00 <MorgyN> For the windows drivers?
19:33:33 <davis> pretty certain that "most of the devs" are human
19:33:55 <Hirundo> they tend to pass turing tests :)
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19:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> have you actually met anyone who did an actual turing test? :)
19:35:00 <MorgyN> I wouldn't believe that of most of the devs I work with...
19:35:55 <krinn> check also your video health, under 2D game still in wndows 3D is in use and card is working higher than just in 2D
19:36:19 <krinn> look out at your gpu health for temp
19:36:20 <MorgyN> video previous is fine. I play tf2 competitively
19:36:27 <MorgyN> passes furmark fine
19:36:40 <MorgyN> even on "extreme"
19:37:27 <MorgyN> Still freezes, latest drivers.
19:37:39 <krinn> so must be some dirty service
19:37:59 <MorgyN> why would it affect openttd alone
19:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd is not like the other games.
19:38:39 <planetmaker> openttd actually uses stone-age graphics approach ;-)
19:38:43 <LordAro> openttd is special :)
19:38:51 <planetmaker> nothing 3D is needed nor used
19:39:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22690 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Aircrafts defined with IDs above the default aircrafts always defaulted to passenger cargo.
19:39:12 <planetmaker> all the selling points of graphics card fail to be applicable to openttd's needs
19:39:17 <MorgyN> Right, so I'm asking. What service could affect it?
19:39:26 <davis> you guys kinda sound like parents on their atempt to teach their kids to play nice with the special kid
19:39:27 <davis> :3
19:39:48 <MorgyN> or rather
19:40:03 <MorgyN> what could a service impact that would cause openttd to stop responding for 15-20 seconds
19:40:42 <MorgyN> does it repeatedly poll the filesystem and blocks on it?
19:40:48 <MorgyN> network?
19:41:10 <krinn> windows decorations and stuff like that, any background service playing with network imo
19:44:12 <planetmaker> MorgyN: on startup OpenTTD can read quite a lot. Depending on your size of the applicable data folders for OpenTTD
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19:44:36 <MorgyN> This is also during, startup seems to be fine.. I'm connected to a game
19:44:54 <MorgyN> still freezing, oh there we go.. disconnected (due to freeze)
19:46:06 <Rubidium> you can't say that video is fine when it works with tf2. It's like saying a car runs fine at full throttle, only it stalls repeatedly when (almost) idling
19:46:37 <Alberth> hmm, some CPU throttling?
19:47:11 <krinn> or multitask failure, did you run it windowed with (dunno name) the thing to check running programs
19:47:20 <krinn> and when it block look who eat cpu
19:47:42 <Alberth> Rubidium: if you only so the 1/4 mile, that's no problem :p
19:47:48 <Alberth> *do
19:48:27 <krinn> cars comparaison would better fit as running full speed, but not proof running backward is fine :p
19:50:57 <Alberth> LordAro: I added remarks prefixed with ">>>" characters. I removed parts of the patch I had nothing useful to say about
19:51:27 <MorgyN> right ok, no high cpu from any other process
19:51:36 <MorgyN> cpu 98% idle even when running
19:52:41 <MorgyN> ok, anyone got a 2d performance test tool =)
19:53:07 <Alberth> other than openttd :p
19:53:25 <MorgyN> indeed.
19:53:48 <Alberth> but single player should then also fail
19:54:06 <MorgyN> it does
19:54:09 <MorgyN> the menu fails
19:54:13 <LordAro> Alberth: thanks! btw, with doxygen, what do things like \c and \a mean?
19:54:16 <MorgyN> I don't even need to be in a game =)
19:54:28 <MorgyN> (also doom II is fine =) )
19:54:40 <Alberth> ah, it's not only the network, I missed that. Sorry
19:54:47 <MorgyN> ooh i know, i used to play 1.0.5 fine wonder if that still works
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19:56:25 <Alberth> LordAro:
19:57:31 <LordAro> thanks
19:58:23 <MorgyN> ok guys. 1.0.5 works fine
19:58:37 <LordAro> also btw, the GRF-> NEWGRF changes, plus the doxygen stuff (on unmodified functions) are separate patches, i just put them together to it would compile properly
19:59:06 <Alberth> LordAro: :)
19:59:43 <Alberth> that's good, it just is not clear from the diff where it comes from
20:01:16 <LordAro> true, but it's easier than posting the patches directory
20:01:34 <MorgyN> 1.1.0 is fine
20:01:39 <LordAro> shall i make comments to your comments here?
20:03:23 <MorgyN> So can anyone suggest a reason why 1.1.0 works fine on my system but 1.1.1 does not?
20:04:05 <Rubidium> `svn diff svn:// svn://` ?
20:04:46 <LordAro> heh, i get smileys for that :)
20:06:03 <Alberth> LordAro: tomorrow please
20:06:23 <LordAro> very well :) i shall think of answers :)
20:06:37 <Alberth> ok :)
20:06:39 <Alberth> good night
20:06:48 <LordAro> good night Alberth
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20:09:08 <Rubidium> MorgyN: the only thing I can say is that it might be a negative side effect of a bugfix, but there isn't anything obvious that comes to mind
20:09:32 <Rubidium> MorgyN: so I hope you're able to compile and are willing to figure out which revision caused it
20:15:41 <MorgyN> attaching tracing tools to it atm, I havent compiled anything for windows for at least 4 years. I've noticed a few other people mention it in the forums but I guess that was unresolved.
20:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said previously, none of the devs have a suitible test environment to reproduce the issue
20:20:56 <Rubidium> yeah, the virtualbox videodriver works fine
20:21:23 <Rubidium> and my network is too slow to try a xenserver running remotely
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20:28:15 <MorgyN> Right, while it's freezing it's constantly polling HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\NetBT\Linkage in the registry
20:28:51 <MorgyN> where does openttd save it's favourited servers?
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20:29:43 <Rubidium> somewhere in openttd.cfg
20:30:21 <MorgyN> ok, but is that in your profile on windows? as i'm running different versions in different directories (from zips) but they keep the favourited servers
20:30:44 <Rubidium> it's in my documents
20:30:56 <MorgyN> aha thanks
20:30:58 <Rubidium> but it's read once when loading the game and written once when closing
20:31:08 <MorgyN> lets try zapping that and see if it's a dodgy setting
20:31:46 <Rubidium> is OpenTTD running from a network share?
20:33:04 <MorgyN> No, local disk
20:33:06 <MorgyN> and bam
20:33:07 <MorgyN> it's fine
20:33:42 <MorgyN> going to restore the old config and try and find the troublesome entry
20:35:54 <MorgyN> restore the config, problem back...
20:36:34 <fjunike> OTTD IS runnig fro a network share :)
20:36:57 <fjunike> from
20:37:15 <MorgyN> is there a comment style to the config?
20:37:52 <MorgyN> ie a # or // to comment out a line, save me creating backups?
20:39:55 <MorgyN> Right, as suspected found it.
20:40:08 <MorgyN> Unresolvable entry in the favourited servers
20:40:19 <MorgyN> remove the entry, everything works perfectly.
20:40:33 <Rubidium> # or ;
20:41:04 <Rubidium> MorgyN: but it ought not to be doing anything to the server list until you open the server window
20:41:35 <MorgyN> I can only offer what I observed. It was doing it during the menu without clicking multiplayer
20:41:55 <Rubidium> very odd
20:42:07 <MorgyN> (and constantly caused pauses while playing)
20:42:21 <MorgyN> removed that one entry from openttd.cfg and it's gone
20:42:37 <Rubidium> what did the entry look like?
20:42:59 <__ln__>
20:43:14 <MorgyN>
20:44:31 * Rubidium remains flabbergasted; all name resolution is, as far as I can see done in a thread as to not to disturb/influence/pause the application when resolution of the dns to ip takes (lots) of time
20:45:25 <Rubidium> ah well, just file a bug report with the information
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20:48:24 <fjunike> Flying Robotic Bird powerd by festo *like* :)
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20:56:07 <MorgyN> Ok that registration confirmation email is taking a while...
20:56:29 <glx> check the spambox
20:56:50 <MorgyN> Have done
20:56:51 <fjunike> im waiting for that email since 2 days :(
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21:00:12 <MorgyN> OK, could someone with a working registration open a bug for me.. if you tell me the feilds i'll pastebin the entries for you to c&p
21:00:23 <MorgyN> *fields.
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21:08:15 <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:09:03 <krinn> is there a rules write somewhere about effect on neighbors tile when raising/lowering a tile?
21:10:10 <Terkhen> good night
21:10:13 <LordAro> MorgyN: i'm bored, i'll do it
21:10:17 <LordAro> good night Terkhen
21:10:45 <MorgyN> LordAro: Thanks. What's the fields? (paste bin em if you can)
21:12:41 <LordAro>
21:17:49 <MorgyN> LordAro:
21:18:53 <MorgyN> hopefully sufficient
21:19:58 <MorgyN> LordAro: could you also post in this thread for these guys to check thier favourited servers?
21:21:46 <LordAro> done, and done :)
21:24:58 <MorgyN> Thank you =)
21:25:00 <planetmaker> good night
21:25:05 <MorgyN> now i'm off to go play.. have fun <3
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21:31:22 <krinn> good night all
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21:34:47 <LordAro> night all
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22:11:39 <frosch123> night
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22:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> man, the austrian railways before WWI are an even worse mixture than the german railways
22:38:47 <MNIM> that's odd
22:39:08 <MNIM> considering germany before WW1 wasn't a single country, while austria was.
22:39:30 <__ln__> must be the kangaroos
22:39:50 <MNIM> wrong country, silly.
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23:09:15 <uni4dfx> what does this mean
23:09:16 <uni4dfx> Language file \"%s\" does not contain a ##grflangid pragma
23:09:35 <uni4dfx> i'm getting this error when i try to compile the grf
23:12:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably mention a filename
23:12:43 <uni4dfx> i've just put ##grflangid 00 at the start and it works now
23:12:51 <uni4dfx> weird thing
23:13:43 <Eddi|zuHause> find a list of language IDs here: (GRFv7 section)
23:14:56 <uni4dfx> ok, american is fine
23:15:08 <uni4dfx> so where do i submit my new town names grf?
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23:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause>
23:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but you might also want to get some feedback from tt-forums (graphics development section)
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