IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-22
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00:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so, i pushed this now, and i wait for nightly build time tomorrow?
00:05:16 <Ammler> what is what you need to tell Rubi
00:06:52 <Ammler> this is also what people can use if they don't want to use mq
00:30:26 <Ammler> (the rpm is not really useful, just for checking if building worked)
00:32:15 <Ammler> the openttd CF does then more useful binaries
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09:42:02 <KittenKoder> Oh hi, I thought everyone was asleep right now.
09:43:37 <KittenKoder> Working on attempts with realistic track layouts.
09:44:33 * Alberth looks for Belugas and V453000
09:47:46 <Noldo_> "realistic" mentioned! Take Cover!
09:47:48 <Alberth> going to draw us a few zillion new sprites?
09:48:05 <KittenKoder> I want rounded tracks. >.>
09:48:12 <KittenKoder> Gimme rounded corners!
09:50:28 <Alberth> I think your chances are much better if you start an openlomo project
09:50:53 <Alberth> or revive one of the previous attempts
09:51:23 <KittenKoder> Me, I've been a big addict... I mean fan of TT for a looong time. >.<
09:52:27 <KittenKoder> Just the people in the another IRC channel got tired of me talking about it.
09:57:54 <planetmaker> unless you want to draw and code rounded corners yourself...
09:59:14 <KittenKoder> I was tempted to.
09:59:51 <Alberth> and not only the rounded tracks, but also all train NewGRFs and train base sets need additional sprites
10:00:36 <KittenKoder> That's the problem./
10:00:44 <Alberth> and immediately after that, you get better roads, with more road vehicle sprites
10:01:06 <Alberth> yes, and for that reason I don't see it happening in openttd
10:01:26 <Alberth> you are pretty much killing everything
10:01:48 <KittenKoder> It's just a fun gripe.
10:04:14 <Alberth> diagonal bridges and tunnels have a much better chance if you want to code something in that area
10:04:26 <Alberth> or diagonally going up a hill
10:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> those are two of the three czech words i know...
10:17:58 <Eddi|zuHause> (the third one is 'pivo', of course) :p
10:19:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "pivo" means "beer"
10:20:03 <MNIM> I know. It's also a scouts' rank in the netherlands.
10:20:12 <MNIM> needless to say, pivo flows freely :P
10:20:32 <MNIM> not free, one coin per bottle, but still pretty dirt-cheap
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10:38:49 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I like the 'disallow tree chopping trick' , but it also makes track building virtually impossible
10:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the values probably need tweaking anyway
10:41:34 <Alberth> another option would be to make towns not care about trees :p
10:45:03 <planetmaker> especially in Stuttgart ;-)
10:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> those people are way beyond tree loving :p
10:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a forest! it's meant to be cut down!
10:50:22 * Alberth thinks most people are against the airport expansion instead
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10:51:16 <Alberth> we always need to rescue such forests when they are in the way of something expanding
10:52:27 <fjb> Who cares for CO2, lets kill all the trees.
10:52:56 <Alberth> fjb: CO2 with trees only works if you NEVER chop them
10:54:10 <fjb> At least you should not burn the wood.
10:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> trees handle only like 20% of the world's CO2
10:54:39 <Alberth> and some trees in western europe are nothing compared to the deforestation happening in Brazil
10:54:41 <andythenorth> trees are a pretty good carbon sink whilst they're growing
10:54:54 <andythenorth> that they have problems doesn't make them useless
10:56:26 <andythenorth> I mostly hang around with people who want to solve hard problems well
10:56:31 <andythenorth> but has a massive downside
10:56:39 <andythenorth> they tend to dismiss 10% and 20% solutions
10:56:53 <andythenorth> instead of banking the improvement and moving on
10:57:11 <andythenorth> which can lead to all solutions being rejected
10:57:14 <andythenorth> leaving a 0% improvement
10:58:55 <planetmaker> needs testing, though
11:01:27 <planetmaker> and questionable whether sensible... linking it to clear or to terraform... or should it get its own setting or none at all (would be most simple)
11:01:39 <planetmaker> it's currently making use of the 'clear' limit
11:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there's only one single photo of the ET41 on the whole internet :(
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11:08:18 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: wrong. Already wiki has two
11:08:51 <fjb> I have one photo in my book.
11:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: where?
11:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's the wrong ET41
11:10:24 <fjb> Looks very different from the ET41 I'm thinking about.
11:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that is the photo i found
11:13:30 <fjb> I have a picture in this book which shows the other side and a two color scheme (but the picture is black and white).
11:14:23 <fjb> But the colors of that time should be known.
11:14:45 <fjb> My scanner is not working right now.
11:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> colour schemes were pretty standardised at that time
11:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: power and weight stats would be useful as well
11:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i only got lengths and top speed
11:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause> TE and axle weight?
11:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and weight of the middle and end wagons individually
11:18:29 <fjb> Hm, they say (1A)(A1) w2t
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11:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's what i noted here as well.
11:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll just put 66/4 as axle weight
11:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably close enough
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11:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> can skip over the swiss and austrian ones for now
11:23:08 <fjb> The wagons of the ET41 were like the 2 axle Einheitspersonenwagen.
11:24:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i don't really have any statistics about those either
11:24:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the wagons in this list have currently some made up values
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11:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> particularly hard to find are power values of the very early steam engines, and TE values for all kinds of railcars
11:26:32 <Alberth> wouldn't a museum have that information, or know where to find it?
11:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause> all current values in there are based on internet research, mainly wikipedia
11:30:20 <fjb> I fount a book a book with some BLS stats.
11:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> those are JVassie's entries, i have not touched them. but feel free
11:44:27 <fjb> Hm you habe BR50 and BR52. The BR52 is a simplified BR50. The simplification where individually made and some simplified engines got the number 50. Most stats are the same, beside the weight. BR52 weights up to 3t less.
11:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's why the 52 is not in the "core" set
11:46:40 <fjb> Ant it is unknown when the last 52s were decommissioned. Most probably endet as spare parts for the BR50.
11:47:29 <planetmaker> fjb: you should add your knowledge to that table, if possible :-)
11:51:04 <fjb> You have most stats. How can I fill in what I find?
11:51:40 <fjb> And if you have BR52 you also need BR43. :-)
11:51:42 <Eddi|zuHause> get a google account, and ask planetmaker to add you as an eligible person
11:52:09 <fjb> Oh, then I overlooked the BR43.
11:53:37 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you have exactly the same rights with that spreadsheet as I do ;-)
11:53:55 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes. but... ;)
11:54:05 <planetmaker> fjb: but if you tell me your google account... I'll add you to editors
11:54:17 <planetmaker> tsk tsk @ Eddi|zuHause ;-)
11:55:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm currently thinking about how to do the articulation... if i continue like i did now, i.e. middle and end wagon a different ID, we quickly run out of IDs <128
11:55:36 <planetmaker> yes... another patch for our patch queue :-P
11:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> we might work around that with more dummy wagons, but then the callbacks might get more complicated
11:59:29 <fjb> I have the decommission date of BR44 at DB, but not at DR. How do I fill that in?
12:01:07 <Eddi|zuHause> just put one number
12:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> decommission date is mostly decorative, might be used as an indicator for the lifetime, but we may as well put some made up data for better gameplay
12:16:26 <fjb> There were a lot of VT137 and SVT137...
12:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i mostly put the DB numbers there, like VT04
12:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> because (S)VT137 is useless as a categorisation
12:18:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it was like "we put all railcars with diesel engine and 4 axles in there"
12:21:53 <fjb> Where did you find the TE? Or did you calculate it?
12:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's a formula in the field, i calculated it from mass
12:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's a number, i found it somewhere
12:25:28 <Eddi|zuHause> feel free to correct my rather crude formula ;)
12:25:32 <fjb> I have the weight of the BR01.10, but not the TE.
12:26:41 <Eddi|zuHause> steam engines usually have "reibungsmasse" given, which i just multiplied with 0.35*9.81
12:26:48 <fjb> And I have the weight of the ET31 (of the full train), but the it is much longer than the powerd part in the table.
12:27:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's 3 mostly identical wagons, so it'll probably be enough
12:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the ET31 actually was unusual in that all three wagons were driven
12:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> most electric railcars of that time were one driven wagon a few middle wagons and a steering wagon
12:31:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the number looks a little low
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12:44:28 <planetmaker> why only win 20 times? ;-)
12:50:23 <Belugas> mister maker, i salute you
12:51:14 <Belugas> and i was thiking about you yesterday evening :) there were heat lightnings on the sky. I took something like 150 photos of them
12:51:37 <Belugas> Of course, been the first time, i did not had some good shots
12:51:48 <Belugas> plus, i took my 18-55 instead of the 70-300
12:52:22 <planetmaker> :-) Lightening is a bitch to take good shots of
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13:13:03 <Belugas> indeed, planetmaker, indeed
13:13:17 <Belugas> hello sir Alberth :) you too fjb
13:20:02 <Belugas> planetmaker: "usually fail". that means that sometimes, you do have some good results, right?
13:20:57 <planetmaker> well... long(er) ago I managed to make some images with a lightening. I'd not call them great though
13:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and of course it contains a typing error...
13:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what you get for being case sensitive...
13:24:48 <planetmaker> ach... track classes without game fun effect are boring. They're micro-management
13:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the more track types you have, the higher you can do the spread between cheap and expensive ones
13:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> so a high speed track really can cost millions per tile ;)
13:27:11 <planetmaker> but what's the fun in that?
13:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but this is meant as the "micromanagement" version
13:28:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the "basic" version should not contain more than 3 normal, 3 electric and two 3rd rail
13:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> lower than that and you might not bother at all
13:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> can do one 3rd rail, but then you have difficulty running mainline trains on them
13:30:01 <planetmaker> like 5 track + 1 3rd are enough imho
13:30:50 <planetmaker> but yes, ML might then not run on 3rd rail
13:31:40 <planetmaker> but a basic track scheme should not be too extensive but be really basic
13:31:51 <planetmaker> like an introduction to the axle weight scheme
13:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "really basic" variant proposal: DBan, DBa3, DBBn, DBdn, DBde, DBDe
13:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is almost too reduced imho
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13:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: if it is too reduced it would be less fun, because you get redundant engines
13:35:18 <Belugas> meeehh... that is what I call removing my argument...
13:36:02 <planetmaker> DBan, DBBn, DBBe, DBCe, DBDe, 3rdR
13:36:20 <planetmaker> where 3rdR probably DBc3
13:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no heavy unelectrified?!
13:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that removes like 80% of the non-electric engines
13:37:31 <planetmaker> hm... how does it 'remove' them?
13:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: add DBCn to that list, and "cheat" some of the DB engines to lower track class (D->C)
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13:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if at all, remove DBBe from that list, as almost all electrified lines were eligible for 20t, except some of the badensian ones (Wehratalbahn)
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13:49:28 <planetmaker> Well... strictly necessary are only DBAn, DBCn, DBCe, DBDe - and maybe DBdn
13:50:15 <planetmaker> though it doesn't make sense to have the C class faster than the D class
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13:58:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm exactly working on that problem now, in a whole other context
13:59:48 <andythenorth> is it related to newgrf legacy support in your view?
14:03:19 <planetmaker> that was what I thought of, yes
14:04:11 <andythenorth> I suspect that all of these newgrf discussions jump to black and white
14:04:18 <andythenorth> when maybe the situation is more subtle
14:04:31 <andythenorth> but the subtle parts are hard because there are so many edge cases
14:05:55 <planetmaker> but we're not in a rush either and we can work out the subtle things and parts
14:06:03 <planetmaker> it needs not big jump all at once
14:06:27 <planetmaker> A big jump would also always haunt us
14:06:37 <planetmaker> And be quite bad for the community
14:07:23 <planetmaker> as it would be at least divided then ;-)
14:07:41 <andythenorth> but we could plan for a big jump in future
14:08:01 <andythenorth> really the big jump is probably made up of smaller behaviours
14:08:52 <andythenorth> frosch already wrote the grftopia spec
14:09:01 <andythenorth> but that is really a *big* project :O
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14:11:03 <planetmaker> well, it is. There's generally A LOT which can be done
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14:11:08 <planetmaker> it 'just' needs doing
14:14:26 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you should add extension to your patches
14:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: how do i rename them?
14:15:56 <Ammler> it is better for the syntax highlighter
14:16:06 <Ammler> and afaik also for downloading...
14:24:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i added 4 possible track schemes to the tracking table
14:25:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: don't reply :)
14:25:35 <andythenorth> it's trivial to break the game by switching grfs
14:25:41 <andythenorth> he just got lucky :P
14:26:21 <planetmaker> well. He writes himself "I only managed twice..". Multiply that by the amount of users, with a 1% reporting it and divide that by time and developer ;-)
14:26:55 <andythenorth> microsoft probably don't take freedom from users on a whim either
14:27:17 <andythenorth> about 5 years ago I started noticing how many really insanely good programmers had spent time at ms
14:27:33 <andythenorth> and how much respect people who know have for ms
14:27:51 <andythenorth> not liking ms products or brand is one thing
14:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean like it took them 10 years to introduce a feature that blocks non-administrators from installing random software?
14:28:25 <planetmaker> download count is ~100000 / year or so for major versions
14:29:40 <planetmaker> hm... 1.0.5 is funny. 250000 downloads. Way more than 1.0.0 or 1.1.1
14:29:58 <andythenorth> probably got linked somewhere
14:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the last .x is available for much longer time
14:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: 6 months instead of 2
14:30:32 <planetmaker> probably that's it indeed
14:31:42 <planetmaker> though... this week 1.0.0: 1000; 1.0.5: 160; 1.1.0: 60; 1.1.1: 14180.
14:32:01 <planetmaker> Why is 1.0.0 relatively high? Probably because of its special number
14:33:31 <planetmaker> no-one downloaded nforenum this week
14:33:51 * planetmaker wonders whether NML should get a similar download link like grfcodec / nforenum
14:35:00 <Alberth> so they also get 0 downloads :p
14:35:45 <planetmaker> Nah, I'm actually meanwhile quite surprised how many people start to pickup NML
14:35:54 <planetmaker> it starts to become established
14:36:56 <planetmaker> so, seems to be a useful project to more than just three newgrf authors ;-)
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14:39:35 <Alberth> You expect that new authors would prefer long unreadable sequences of hex numbers rather than something with words?
14:39:54 <andythenorth> more and more people will post the newgrf developer tools workaround :)
14:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> more moderators will edit that out of their posts :p
14:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there they go...
14:42:05 <Alberth> openttdcoop is not so stable :p
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14:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: renaming done (i think)
14:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: so what's the next step in getting the CF to build it? bug Rubidium?
14:50:25 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: fixing the CF
14:51:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds fun :p
14:52:07 <Rubidium> buildbot doesn't seem to like multiple 'pollers' for building from different repositories, which is more or less where I got stuck
14:56:18 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that's more like: well, these phone users used to sponsor internet with calling, but now they don't call anymore so the income from the internet must equal the costs, instead of the income for internet being vastly smaller than the costs
14:57:55 <Rubidium> and basic demand and supply mechanism correcting for a shift in demand
14:59:39 <MNIM> simple solution: do not build phones with net access. problem solved >.<
15:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that's like the GDR producing colour TVs without PAL support
15:02:40 <Eddi|zuHause> colour TV had originally 3 different standards: german PAL, french SECAM and american NTSC
15:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the russians licensed the french SECAM system, and forced it upon all eastern european countries
15:03:16 <Eddi|zuHause> including east germany, which would rather have used the (better) PAL system
15:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> now TV sets can easily support both SECAM and PAL, since they are not hugely different, but since only west german TV was broadcast in PAL, and watching west german TV was generally frowned upon (but not actually forbidden)
15:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> so some braindead officials tried to push colour TVs without PAL support into the market
15:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody actually bought them :p
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15:05:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (no PAL support means west german TV can only be watched in black&white)
15:06:10 <planetmaker> or vice versa ;-)
15:06:25 <planetmaker> As kid I always wondered why the DDR-TV was always only b&w
15:07:12 <MNIM> well, you're having a chicken&egg problem there
15:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> funnily enough, even though east german TV was broadcast in SECAM, it was actually internally processed as PAL and only converted at the last step
15:07:47 <MNIM> long live the plan economy or something
15:08:02 <Eddi|zuHause> supposedly PAL was better for cutting etc.
15:08:18 <MNIM> either way, a mobile phone is not a pc, a palmtop, a tablet pc, a netbook or a laptop. it needs no internet.
15:08:35 <MNIM> I dunno, I prefer knives to cut something
15:08:47 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: what if i want to go online with my laptop through my phone?
15:09:47 <MNIM> ...that's like sending an email by posting it to a third world country, letting them open it up and sand an email to you saying you've got an email with the scanned, or even worse, typed over contents
15:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but i expect there was no real market for watching east german TV in west germany :p
15:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but the actual point is: why should i phone with my phone, when i can skype with my phone, which is way cheaper?
15:10:49 <planetmaker> I expect not. Maybe for "Sandmännchen"
15:10:58 <MNIM> because you don't have internet ;)
15:11:18 <MNIM> if I did though, I can't say I wouldn't (i'm a cheap-ass)
15:11:59 <MNIM> but that isn't my fault for misusing an internet connection, that's the company's fault for funding internet with it's phone revenue.
15:12:18 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: used to be cheaper because voice paid for data
15:12:19 <MNIM> EG poor market strategy, suck it, you corporate bitches!
15:13:26 <MNIM> we'll have another such dilemma soon, though
15:14:03 <MNIM> when it starts to occur to people that watching tv on your pc is far cheaper than having a separate tv subscription
15:15:25 <MNIM> augh, which *moron* at loki decided that the enter key is a valid option for scrolling through a text file?
15:15:36 * fjb didn't switch his tv on for three month.
15:16:12 <Rubidium> fjb: what a waste of electricity
15:16:37 <MNIM> but every time I watch a movie on a commercial channel I remember again why I like to torrent shit
15:16:50 <fjb> My tv really wastes electricity.
15:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause> politicians are stupid... they put up an internet vote how to name a tunnel, and then get completely crazy when the outcome turns to be "Bud Spencer Tunnel"
15:21:08 <MNIM> why would that be an outrage?
15:42:22 <MNIM> just ripping apart some bots in ut
15:42:33 <MNIM> pointless death and destruction!
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16:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what's wrong with it?
16:01:20 <planetmaker> not helpful and needlessly sarcastic
16:01:54 <planetmaker> i.e. IMHO a clear case of "better not answered at all"
16:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's the closest to "i certainly won't explain game exploits to you"
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16:02:58 <planetmaker> it's an honest question which deserves a better answer. Or none
16:03:33 <planetmaker> and if "you won't explain it" then simply don't. But don't spill acid
16:03:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the problem, though
16:04:52 <planetmaker> nor do I see that with a proper explanation
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16:24:40 <Alberth> one step closer to rotated airports!
16:25:20 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes... in principle it's all possible already. Though the easy path via a rotation-variable for the tiles themselves is not yet there
16:25:42 <planetmaker> thus one has to go currently via different airport tiles in the different layouts
16:26:00 <planetmaker> something which holds me back a bit
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16:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i totally feel with you :)
16:45:14 <planetmaker> but the max speed seems to be inserted there automatically
16:45:59 <MNIM> nutracks does that already
16:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> we could also do a version without max speed
16:46:48 <planetmaker> OpenTTD does that, MNIM
16:47:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes, possibly. It could simply be set via parameter
16:47:26 <planetmaker> but... not now :-)
16:47:46 <planetmaker> First I want to get it roughly into a form that track types can be added somewhat easily
17:05:27 <frosch123> [18:25] <planetmaker> thus one has to go currently via different airport tiles in the different layouts <- why?
17:05:50 <planetmaker> frosch123: I can't query the airport's rotation from tile level
17:06:01 <planetmaker> err_not_implemented ;-)
17:06:04 <frosch123> the rotation i available in var40 of the airport
17:06:17 <planetmaker> yes. But no parent scope
17:07:56 * frosch123 wonders what was the reason for that
17:07:58 <planetmaker> that's not done yet as towns for example would be similarily valid
17:08:13 <planetmaker> stations have no station tiles
17:08:35 <planetmaker> thus something has to be made up or decided for airports
17:08:41 <frosch123> so we need multiple related objects
17:08:44 <planetmaker> like two parent scopes. yes
17:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> can't you query the parent scope's parent scope?
17:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. airport tile -> airport -> town
17:09:57 <planetmaker> currently not. And there's no feature where there's a parent's parent scope
17:10:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: industry tiles
17:10:27 * planetmaker suggests grandparent scope. Oh, right :-)
17:10:51 <frosch123> anyway, i remember there were at least two useful alternative scopes for vehicles
17:11:15 <planetmaker> previous and head?
17:11:23 <frosch123> first articulated part and engine-providing-the-engineoverride
17:12:11 <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which, can the parameter for a 60+var be a value calculated with a varaction2?
17:12:26 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: variable 7b
17:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> because i kinda need the parameter to be "-(position in vehid chain)"
17:13:59 <Eddi|zuHause> might be an obiwan in there
17:38:27 <planetmaker> hm, so it seems the GUI sprites for railtypes are unessential... luckily actually
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17:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like the gui sprites to not be replaced actually
17:45:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22681 /trunk/src/lang/greek.txt:
17:45:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 2 changes by fumantsu
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18:15:25 <frosch123> why is a finish guy linking to news about norway written in german?
18:16:06 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he didn't find a french news
18:16:38 <planetmaker> I guess that's called 'global village'
18:17:29 <frosch123> (note that reading norwegian news about norway would be fine, just like reading foreign news about your home country)
18:20:38 <__ln__> i chose a widely spoken language because i assumed many of us can't read norwegian
18:21:29 * planetmaker spontaneously would assume another language being more widely understood among the participants of this channel
18:23:22 * __ln__ looks for news articles in dutch
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18:27:39 <Chris_Booth> nice and handy XD
18:27:55 <planetmaker> Hirundo: thanks for spec update wrt the random bits in CB 0x3B
18:28:10 <planetmaker> I somewhat was distracted and forgot ;-)
18:42:43 <Eddi|zuHause> wait... i can make a game desync based on transparency settings? (var 1B)
18:45:05 <Terkhen> depends on how (if) openttd implements it
18:46:05 <frosch123> ottd intentionally does not implement that variable :)
18:46:05 <Rubidium> I guess nobody used it yet and/or it never came up in the reviews of settings that affect MP stability
18:47:13 <frosch123> we only disabled the "current railtype of the gui"
18:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it should probably be returning a fixed value in multiplayer
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18:56:28 <planetmaker> indeed we should just generally disable it, I think
18:56:45 <frosch123> just adding comments :)
18:58:45 <planetmaker> interestingly it does / did only implement 6 bits - which transparency now has 7 meanwhile
18:59:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22682 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] Disallow accessing variable 1B due to desync reasons.
18:59:53 <frosch123> planetmaker: the wiki only documents the original 6
18:59:59 <frosch123> though ttdp actually has more as well
19:07:15 <planetmaker> hm... shouldn't more of those global variables be documented in the NewGRF wiki?
19:08:04 <frosch123> planetmaker: some are documented on varact2 page, some on action7 page, and some on actiond page
19:08:10 <frosch123> depending on where they are useful
19:08:36 <frosch123> there is a item in to TODO list of the specs wiki to explain these interactions
19:09:53 <andythenorth> maybe I should work on FIRS
19:09:54 <frosch123> btw. i think we need some small icons indicating ottd support "no", "0.6", "0.7", "1.0", "1.1" and ttdp support "2.0", "2.5", "2.6"
19:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there's still some dependency stuff not right. like i just changed a pnml file in src/templates, but it didn't rebuild
19:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, that might be my fault.
19:12:02 <planetmaker> nice idea, frosch123.
19:12:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think Uwe had such icons in his signal guide
19:13:30 <planetmaker> yes, I thought of some like those
19:14:02 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yes, something like that, but with the version
19:14:13 <frosch123> and also some explicit "no support" signs
19:14:52 <planetmaker> the global vars should move away from action7
19:15:27 <frosch123> planetmaker: not sure
19:15:42 <planetmaker> it's quite cluttered now...
19:15:42 <frosch123> the actiond ones are very specific
19:15:59 <frosch123> iirc there are even writeonly ones
19:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: disregard my last complaint, it was me not actually including the file where it should be
19:16:59 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes... the write-able ones are definitely specifc. Write-only... interesting... which?
19:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i managed to get completely invisible vehicles now! :)
19:17:13 <frosch123> planetmaker: however, maybe it would work if the table had columns for availability in action 2, 6, 7, 9 and D
19:17:14 <planetmaker> the 32px wagon width in depots?
19:18:07 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: old shoe in new boxes? ;-)
19:18:17 <frosch123> planetmaker: 9f (ttdp only)
19:18:26 <frosch123> "Reading this variable isn't reliable, so you must only write to it."
19:19:13 <planetmaker> I'll first create a summary page, I guess. Then one can merge that into the single pages where it might be referenced
19:21:01 <frosch123> hmm is orudge around already?
19:21:22 <frosch123> if we had the parser extention, we could filter the list when including it in some other page
19:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> anybody got an NML syntax highlighting for Kate?
19:22:36 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: Terkhen had not for kate but something else a list of syntax words... somewhere in the general devzone files
19:22:43 <planetmaker> or maybe in NML files section
19:23:34 <frosch123> hello orudge :) we came up with some extension requirements for the wiki in the past weeks
19:23:49 <orudge> let me know and I'll see what I can do :)
19:25:27 <planetmaker> ah, the htmldump wouldn't be bad either
19:25:38 <Terkhen> I never uploaded it :P
19:25:41 <frosch123> (extracted those from the logs)
19:26:01 <orudge> aww, none of them have Debian packages, will have to install them the old fashioned way :)
19:26:17 * Terkhen has been doing non-openttd stuff that he had been neglecting
19:26:20 <frosch123> dumphtml needs a custom cron job anyway afaik
19:27:40 <orudge> hmm, the interwiki one should be handy for language stuff, too, which I need to do at some point (on the main wiki)
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19:40:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i had a request for the wiki: in the TOC for the callbacks, omit the numbers before the heading
19:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Unbenannt,%201.%20Jan%202032.png <-- how do i fix this offset? it was better, before i disabled the default vehicles (which had some dualheaded vehicles)
19:43:40 <planetmaker> yes, that'd be nice. But it's an autogenerated TOC... so not that easy
19:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that only means that the generator needs to be tweaked ;)
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19:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> not that it is more difficult ;)
19:50:56 <orudge> frosch123: OK, they should be enabled. Interwiki stuff may require sysop permissions; I've not actually looked into it in detail right now.
19:51:15 <orudge> frosch123: and dumphtml is simply a PHP script rather than an extension as such
19:51:28 <orudge> all of them = Interwiki, DumpHTML, ParserFunctions, DynamicPageList
19:54:49 <orudge> hmm, DumpHTML may require some hacking because I don't think it expects us to have multiple wikis served from a single installation
19:55:10 <orudge> anyway, let me know if there are any issues with those extensions
19:58:57 <frosch123> he, interwiki links has a ton of defaults configured :s
19:59:26 <frosch123> i wonder whether we should delete most of them, or just not bother :)
20:00:33 <orudge> I would probably suggest removing them, to be honest
20:03:47 <orudge> well, I've emptied the interwiki tables
20:04:10 <orudge> feel free to add any new ones :)
20:16:42 <lpj> came here to ask if anybody have problem open openttd after the Mac update to OS Lion?
20:17:41 * andythenorth won't be upgrading to that
20:17:48 <planetmaker> dunno,... my god is he impatient
20:18:02 <orudge> OpenTTD seemed to work OK on Lion when I tested it
20:18:24 <planetmaker> I'll only test it next week... my new HDD only arrives on Monday :-P
20:18:42 <planetmaker> And I'll not jeopardize this system ;-)
20:18:45 <andythenorth> no PowerPC apps == no photoshop
20:18:46 <orudge> well, I had one of the Lion pre-releases installed for testing purposes, and indeed now have Lion final installed on my external disk for testing purposes
20:18:51 <andythenorth> no photoshop == no pixels
20:19:09 <andythenorth> also my excel won't work anymore
20:19:12 <orudge> the new SDK/compiler/XCode breaks lots of stuff, though, that Wine relies on
20:19:19 <andythenorth> so screw Lion :P
20:19:19 <orudge> so won't be upgrading on my main system for a while yet
20:19:34 <orudge> andythenorth: I guess you have relatively old Excel... 2004?
20:19:43 <planetmaker> I guess that'll be how I handle it too: keep lion on the external HDD
20:19:49 <andythenorth> I used to be early upgrader
20:19:52 <planetmaker> at least for some time
20:19:53 <andythenorth> now I don't care
20:21:03 <planetmaker> frosch123: how is action6 important for those variables?
20:27:05 <frosch123> planetmaker: action6 works with the action79d variables as well
20:27:15 <frosch123> though i am not sure about the usefulness :)
20:29:09 <andythenorth> how do I svn revert?
20:29:34 <frosch123> svn revert list-of-files
20:29:45 <andythenorth> so there's no recursive or -a option?
20:29:47 <frosch123> or svn revert -r list-of-dirs
20:30:10 <andythenorth> it's case sensitive :P
20:30:23 <andythenorth> I did google for that first, but found bad advice
20:31:28 <frosch123> hmm, what prefix should we use for links to the ottd wiki?
20:31:30 <planetmaker> frosch123: the no I'd indicate by a red x over the icon
20:31:33 <planetmaker> it's also smaller
20:31:37 <planetmaker> which it shouldn't be
20:31:45 <frosch123> i just used "ottd" for the compatibility template
20:32:21 <frosch123> hmm, let's try the parser extension
20:32:35 <planetmaker> hm, so it's actually the text within that image?
20:32:56 <planetmaker> sorry, I only meant the icon, not the template use
20:33:24 <planetmaker> the template looks very fine. Just the 'no support icon' I'd graphically change a bit :-)
20:39:38 <frosch123> hmm, how to draw a cross with gimp?
20:39:44 <frosch123> some things are easier with paint :p
20:40:29 <frosch123> let's use the text tool and write ✕ :p
20:46:09 <frosch123> planetmaker: maybe put the readonly/writeonly in a speical action d column?
20:50:04 <planetmaker> hm, I where do I find the svn revs of the single tags?
20:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> svn log svn.openttd.org/tags/blah --limit 1
20:52:55 <frosch123> orudge: parser extension works :)
20:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: svn info svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/1.1.0
20:55:45 <planetmaker> thx, Eddi|zuHause. I actually needed all :-)
20:56:18 <planetmaker> frosch123: you mean yet another column for that... ?
20:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: for i in svn ls ...
20:58:01 <Ammler> planetmaker: finger.openttd.org
20:58:19 <frosch123> to avoid duplication of the vars
20:58:31 <planetmaker> duplication? There's none?
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20:58:55 <frosch123> there are two "8E B Y-Offset for train sprites "
20:59:27 <planetmaker> ah, oversight. I'd only keep it in the writable section
20:59:27 <frosch123> wrt. columns you would need another column for the varact2 variable number anyway
20:59:47 <planetmaker> varact2 variable number? Not the same?
20:59:49 <frosch123> so, maybe a column for varact2 stating the variable
21:00:06 <frosch123> a column for act 6/7/9/d stating the variable
21:00:22 <frosch123> and a column for actiond specifiying writeaccess and writeonly
21:00:51 <frosch123> hmm, actuelly act 6/7/9 is the same as readaccess
21:01:28 <frosch123> "var2 number, var679d number, readaccess, writeaccess, size, description" ?
21:01:39 <planetmaker> hm... so idea: read access / write access columns
21:02:07 <planetmaker> a whole read access number for one line's sake?
21:02:10 <planetmaker> sounds overdoing it
21:02:17 <frosch123> bah, 85 and 88 are special
21:02:20 <planetmaker> and limiting needlessly the screen width
21:02:22 <frosch123> they are 7&9 only :p
21:02:53 <frosch123> but maybe that could fit into footnotes
21:03:31 <frosch123> then write-only would suffice a footnote as well
21:05:28 <planetmaker> well... the 2 7&9 only and write-only could go to footnotes or comment, indeed
21:06:12 <planetmaker> but you mean 84 is special, not 85, right?
21:06:43 <frosch123> you can only use it with bittest operators
21:06:51 <frosch123> as it is a 128 bit variable or so
21:07:25 <frosch123> 84 works in 6 and d, though quite useless :p
21:07:49 <frosch123> though i would not document it as supported in 2
21:07:56 <frosch123> as that makes even less sense :)
21:11:52 <planetmaker> hm... I still like the action column. But maybe I can indicate write access by D by using a bold D there
21:12:14 <planetmaker> or call the 'action' column 'access' column
21:12:24 <planetmaker> and explain its meaning in a footnote
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21:14:25 <planetmaker> I'm not convinced that action6 needs special mentioning. Each actionD allows also action6
21:20:47 <planetmaker> wth actually are the 'tile refresh offset' variables?
21:24:31 <frosch123> they control what screen area is redrawn when a tile is marked dirty
21:24:48 <frosch123> resp. what tiles to draw if a certain screen area needs redrawing
21:24:54 <frosch123> ottd does not implement them
21:25:16 <frosch123> ttdp implements one of the two aspects, so too big sprites still glitch
21:25:33 <planetmaker> he ok, thanks :-)
21:59:21 <frosch123> oh, the a3 and a4 descriptions wrt. "game load year" only apply to action 679d, not 2
21:59:30 <frosch123> maybe merging is more tricky :p
22:04:34 <planetmaker> but apropos: isn't the same then true for var 81?
22:04:55 <planetmaker> it should have the same restrictions as A3 and A4?
22:05:26 <frosch123> yup, it says so, doesn't it?
22:06:30 <Rubidium> doesn't 81 only give a game load year for MP? But just the year in SP?
22:07:29 <planetmaker> oh, difference MP / SP? Hm
22:07:30 <frosch123> if (_networking) { <- yup
22:07:37 <planetmaker> frosch123: it didn't before
22:07:47 <planetmaker> ok, I'll adjust that then, too
22:16:59 <frosch123> i think these footnotes look nice
22:17:23 <frosch123> they link each other, you can insert the notes anywhere (i.e. in every section, not only the bottom)
22:17:32 <frosch123> and you can use the same footnote multiple times
22:19:07 <planetmaker> yes, would make perfect sense
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23:56:47 <frosch123> planetmaker: tried a different layout for the table
23:57:08 <frosch123> when adding spaces between the icons, it does not look that bad actually
23:58:03 <frosch123> though i wonder whether we should add another template which combines both icons, so every version-specific paragraph always states ttdp and ottd support status
23:58:43 <frosch123> maybe it could also optionally take revision arguments to create a formatting as for var23/24
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