IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-20
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06:15:00 <Zmapper> Can I just install openttd on a server?
06:15:07 <Zmapper> So I can host a game that way?
06:24:43 <Zmapper> Should I use fillezilla?
06:26:07 <LordAro> no idea :) i suspect that's not how to install things on a server though
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07:18:59 <planetmaker> wow many people awake already :-) How're things?
07:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm going to have to do real work today...
07:29:08 <V453000> im awake since 6:20 when some idiots called me that they have some package to deliver to me ... they arrived just now
07:30:45 <planetmaker> woot the idots call at 6:20h to *announce* that they're probably delivering shit?
07:31:14 <planetmaker> that's more than plain rude
07:34:23 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I added some of the files generated by generate.py to the clean target
07:35:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: imho you can just delete all *.gnml files
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07:36:52 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's what I do ;-)
07:37:01 <planetmaker> rm src/*.gnml src/*/*.gnml
07:43:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "find src -print0 -iname '*.gnml' | xargs -0 rm" or so
07:48:32 <planetmaker> I should use find more ;-)
07:48:35 <planetmaker> find src -iname '*.gnml' -delete will do
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08:22:32 <planetmaker> For me I wasn't able to get oil refineries in that case either
08:23:02 <planetmaker> mind: the issue does NOT appear when you create a new _game_
08:23:21 <planetmaker> thus I personally conclude that it's an issue within ECS' industry availability code
08:25:30 <Alberth> So that was not clear enough for me :)
08:27:45 <planetmaker> But he really makes it easy to be mis-understood, as he insists (and advocates) the use of unsafe actions ;-)
08:28:02 <Alberth> planetmaker: thanks for pointing it out
08:28:15 <planetmaker> I would not call it 'solved'. 'reproduced' is IMHO the proper word ;-)
08:28:58 <planetmaker> otherwise I'd solve many problems ;-)
08:29:02 * Alberth changed s/solved/reproduced/
08:29:26 <planetmaker> and hands a cup of tea (sorry, no coffee here in the office)
08:29:52 <Alberth> nice, some tea, goes well with my somewhat early lunch :)
08:30:24 <Alberth> euhm, 'office' and no coffee?
08:30:56 <planetmaker> :-) Oh, there'd be available coffee, if I preferred personally coffee over tea ;-)
08:31:15 <planetmaker> most people here actually drink coffee. And there's plenty around. Just not in my office ;-)
08:31:25 <planetmaker> and sorry, I was too lazy to get some from the spacebar ;-)
08:31:54 <Alberth> oh, tea is nice too, you cannot drink coffee all day
08:32:43 <planetmaker> sure, why not? Canteen is closed this week anyway
08:33:04 * Alberth gives planetmaker a sandwich
08:33:14 <planetmaker> yummi. Thanks :-)
08:33:21 <peter1138> package picked up at Swindon, then went to Heathrow, and is now at Gatwick...
08:34:14 <Alberth> I just knew these package tracking services would upset customers :p
08:35:39 <peter1138> not upset, just boggling :)
08:41:20 <planetmaker> peter1138: so did it leave a good impression? Rather not, it seems. Conclusion: detrimental
08:42:37 <peter1138> it's a question of scale
08:42:42 <peter1138> when you consider one package, it's "wtf?"
08:43:44 <peter1138> when you consider they have to ship lots of stuff, there's a logic to it in reducing the total journeys
08:44:50 <planetmaker> of course. But do you (or any other customer) care about their internal logistics organization?
08:45:20 <Alberth> they just optimize to personnel costs rather than package travel distance
08:45:47 <peter1138> planetmaker, kinda. it would cost a lot more if they were to deliver it direct...
08:46:08 <peter1138> maybe i'm too reasonable :)
08:46:28 <peter1138> also i'm not expecting it until tomorrow, so until then .... :)
08:46:57 <planetmaker> peter1138: of course it'd cost a lot more to deliver directly. Still I don't care *how exactly* they route the mail I want to see delivered.
08:47:03 <planetmaker> I just want it reliable, fast and cheap
08:47:06 <Alberth> I am sure they can also optimize travel distance of your package against a price
08:47:21 <planetmaker> so the better measure would be ETA than place
08:49:07 <peter1138> i guess i'm just more geeky than you :)
08:49:16 <peter1138> i don't care how it's routed, but i don't mind knowing
08:50:46 <planetmaker> I don't mind either. But... it's pointless info really
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11:31:56 <RandomGuest1> hmm...i was gonna ask some questions about TTD, but no-one is on :\
11:33:40 <RandomGuest1> i was gonna ask for some starting out tips because i can't make money "quickly"
11:35:13 <RandomGuest1> is that how real life companies do it now? They type in a cheat code?
11:35:14 <Alberth> or build an airplane connection between two cites
11:35:50 <Alberth> RandomGuest1: OpenTTD is a game about fun, not about real life, we already have way too much of that
11:36:18 <RandomGuest1> ahh it was a joke :P we should add nuclear reactors and uranium to the game though >.> *terrorist face*
11:38:33 <Mazur> I always find a simple run like a coal run generates enough profits to start up a company, though not as fast as a plane connection.
11:38:55 <Alberth> RandomGuest1: so you can do one transport of uranium every 20 years?
11:38:56 <Mazur> Alberth, he wants things to blow up.
11:39:04 <RandomGuest1> to nuke cities >.>
11:39:07 <V453000> ^ which most real companies do find some coal or planes :DDDDDDD
11:39:34 <Alberth> RandomGuest1: that's not how real companies tend to operate :p
11:39:44 * planetmaker built a simple connection between one coal mine and a medium-distance power plant - and it seems to last me through the whole AI test game
11:39:53 <Mazur> Would work better than a geranium, at least.
11:39:57 <RandomGuest1> but what about the terrorist companies? They do it all the time!
11:40:19 <planetmaker> RandomGuest1: if you want to have terrorism, OpenTTD is not the game for you ;-)
11:40:31 <Mazur> No, they don't, they'dbe liable to prosecution. So they outsource it.
11:40:57 <RandomGuest1> what's really weird in the game is how random the buildings are placed...why are sawmills on the farm nowhere near a forest for?
11:41:11 <Mazur> Through a shell company ion the Bahamas, or Caymans, or what have you.
11:41:33 <Alberth> to give you transport opportunties of course
11:41:35 * V453000 is now officially the enemy of realism
11:41:48 <V453000> ^ if someone didnt notice :P
11:42:22 <Alberth> V453000: I just ignore it in all OpenTTD game discussions :)
11:42:39 <peter1138> V453000, uh... you'll have to fight Belugas for that spot :D
11:43:16 <planetmaker> it's an established title, indeed
11:44:07 <RandomGuest1> buses: do you recomend?
11:44:53 <planetmaker> generally it's a good idea to ship cargo no to the nearest destination but some medium-range distance
11:45:12 <planetmaker> 100 ... 200 tiles is a good starting distance for your first route
11:45:49 <RandomGuest1> that's like......1/2 of the 256x256 map
11:46:35 <RandomGuest1> aw well, i guess you can make the track go in circles
11:47:13 <__ln__> you also can use a hammer to paint a wall
11:48:44 <Alberth> Trains can also reverse
11:48:46 <Sacro> RandomGuest1: that won't work
11:49:17 <Sacro> it'll travel the same distance but will take longer
11:51:57 <RandomGuest1> 48k train income and 23k plane income for first year
11:55:16 <RandomGuest1> you really think a 150 tile long train line is gonna get me good cash?
11:57:45 <RandomGuest1> woah that does make a lot of cash
11:58:06 <planetmaker> 150 tile long train route: yes. 150 tile long train: not possible ;-)
12:02:35 * Mazur is a champion of Total Transport.
12:02:53 <Mazur> Using all manner of transport mode.
12:03:54 <Mazur> Well, using ships in a desert is a tad tricky, but otherwise: yes.
12:04:35 <Alberth> luckily canals do keep filled even in the desert :)
12:05:04 <Mazur> Let me rephrase that: I _like_ it when all manner of transport is used, but not stupidly.
12:05:22 <peter1138> heh, and the package arrived 30 minutes ago
12:05:59 <RandomGuest1> you can use ships in deserts as "fake" tourists attractions! too bad this isn't tourist tycoon...
12:06:56 <Mazur> And I also dislike the kind of unrealism like e.g. ships behaving like planes.
12:07:55 <planetmaker> I've not seen a ship 'fly' over mountains or desert tiles
12:09:26 <Mazur> No, but if they were allowed, it'd be dead against it.
12:09:29 <RandomGuest1> is there a way to quickly move trains from depot to depot?
12:10:12 <Alberth> clone and destroy the original, but that is not really move
12:11:12 <RandomGuest1> im thinking of calling my company "Unneccesairly expensive goods travel service"
12:18:39 <RandomGuest1> question: if railstations A, B, C and D exist, all of them have ONE track, A and B are one supply line while C and D are another. If the tracks meet at one point, would both supply lines still work?
12:18:57 <planetmaker> depends on signals
12:19:21 <RandomGuest1> so i just need signals and it'll work?
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12:19:47 <Alberth> but if you have no traffic between B and C, there is no need to connect them
12:20:08 <RandomGuest1> it's mainly industry locations...
12:20:20 <RandomGuest1> A would be NW, B is SE, C is SW and D is NE
12:20:50 <planetmaker> well, you can build arbitrarily complex rail networks
12:21:03 <planetmaker> you can even implement an ALU with openttd's rails and signals...
12:21:15 <planetmaker> i.e. simulate a pocket calculator with it
12:21:34 <planetmaker> but that is done only by crazy people :-P
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12:22:43 <planetmaker> RandomGuest1: just _a_ signal at _a random_ place won't do it. But it needs to be the proper one at the proper place. Which depends on network layouts
12:24:03 <Alberth> ^ and finding out how to do that is the first step to becoming very addicted to OpenTTD :p
12:25:24 <RandomGuest1> ok i need to find which one is used for rails..hmm
12:26:06 <RandomGuest1> what can go wrong?
12:27:27 <Alberth> they are not so relevant anymore since we have the path signals
12:28:21 <Alberth> in the See Also section at the bottom are other tutorials, which explain in more detail
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12:45:51 <planetmaker> so... happy birthday linux
12:46:36 <planetmaker> and obviously also a good add for MS
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13:31:45 <Belugas> [07:42] <@peter1138> V453000, uh... you'll have to fight Belugas for that spot :D <-- I'm not a fighter! I'll gladly share that spot :D The more we are on it, the more efficiently we can fight this monstruosity!!!
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14:41:10 <planetmaker> hello dihedral :-)
14:41:16 <planetmaker> do you feel the music? :-P
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15:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause> two NML questions: how do i set the additional descritption text for the buy window, and can i assemble that from multiple strings?
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15:40:00 <Hirundo> a) with the additional_text callback, b) I don't know for sure
15:44:15 <Hirundo> After a quick inspection I'm pretty sure b) is not possible, it'd be a nice feature though
15:44:31 <planetmaker> I haven't tried to assemble it from multiple strings... are parameters possible there?
15:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> from the openttd side, i'm sure it's possible, just has to be usefully exposed to NFO/NML
15:45:47 <Hirundo> I'm not sure if ottd uses true concatenation or just sub-strings
15:46:47 <Rubidium> there is barely any 'just' concatenation in OpenTTD
15:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that is needed is a way to push a parameter to the stack in a varaction 2, the rest should already be handled by openttd
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15:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. error messages already have parameters, there is just no way to influence them from the grf
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16:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> warning: soup is both hot and hot.
16:19:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22675 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt main_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.cpp toolbar_gui.h): -Change: Add a menu entry for the sprite bounding box debuging feature in the help menu and enable bounding boxes only in conjunction with the newgrf developer tools
16:35:53 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: how do you translate 'bounding box'?
16:36:25 <planetmaker> 'umschließendes Rechteck'? gar nicht? 'Zeichen-box'?
16:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> "Quader", not "Rechteck"?
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17:31:03 * MNIM disregards rest, goes "UGH" and closes tab
17:31:25 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, in the future you should be able to do string(STR_XX, param1, param2, .. , paramn)
17:32:21 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker: if I wanted to start messing around with making train newGRFs would you know a good article I could read?
17:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: how far future?
17:35:16 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: I guess there's not much more than the documentation and looking at other newgrfs' code
17:35:44 <Hirundo> dunno, there's a lot of stuff that I'd want to be coded yesterday
17:36:32 <Chris_Booth> no wiki, blog or forum posts about nfo?
17:36:54 <planetmaker> well... what do you need / want?
17:37:10 <planetmaker> The NML forum thread certainly has *something* about it, including a comparision nml/ nfo
17:39:11 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: Are the string parameters you'd want to use (compile-time) constants, or are they variable?
17:39:19 <Chris_Booth> see I don't even know what NML is, all I want to do it mess around with some train sprites I have made
17:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: currently probably constant, but my speciality is finding cases where the previously valid boundaries do not hold anymore :p
17:40:16 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: then I suggest you start with the NML docs
17:40:37 <Chris_Booth> thanks planetmaker
17:40:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: the case i have in mind is putting a string like "Axle Weight: {NUM}"
17:41:09 <Eddi|zuHause> or "Track type: {STRING}"
17:41:18 <Rubidium> planetmaker: does that read like the same old story again? Apple breaks API, OpenTTD will not support new version until someone fixes it
17:43:13 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I don't know. I haven't downloaded nor tested it yet. But... that article lets me assume that things might be broken
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22676 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt english_US.txt french.txt german.txt spanish.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Harlequin
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
17:45:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
17:45:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:45:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 6 changes by Terkhen
17:45:52 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: I'll add a feature request to the tracker, but I can't promise it'll get done soon
17:46:14 <Chris_Booth> it is planetmaker all the links it talks about are broken
17:46:37 <Chris_Booth> it is as much use as a map to a road that has been dug up
17:47:20 <planetmaker> and if you look a bit more closely at the link you'll just noticed that they're missing a single space character
17:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause> someone's conversion script failed ;)
17:51:56 <Chris_Booth> thanks planetmaker for fixing the link
17:52:57 <planetmaker> psst, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
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18:22:23 <andythenorth> are there any newgrfs that disable themselves if palette is wrong?
18:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not seen any, but allegedly they exist
18:29:38 <andythenorth> this newgrf spec is problematic :P
18:30:55 <andythenorth> maybe we should eliminate the windows palette?
18:31:23 * andythenorth is deadly serious
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18:31:56 <jrabbit> my friend is having problems running openttd on debian lstable
18:32:21 <andythenorth> despite I would have to pal-convert every single grf I've worked on
18:32:33 <andythenorth> or prevent the newgrf from being able to detect palette
18:32:50 <andythenorth> or require the newgrf to set palette, prevent user from doing so
18:33:59 <andythenorth> basically the current possibilities are stupid
18:34:10 <Rubidium> jrabbit: sounds like a too old version of the graphics files for the version of OpenTTD you're running (the grf stuff that is)
18:34:15 <andythenorth> not allowing user to change palette is currently correct, but hugely sub-optimal
18:34:54 <Rubidium> the other stuff is something with the sound driver which is rather something caused by/to be fixed by the library we use for sound playback
18:34:54 <andythenorth> assuming grf doesn't use action 14....it's basically a crap shoot
18:35:06 <andythenorth> the chance for each grf of picking right palette is 50:50
18:35:32 <andythenorth> and any wrong choice can ruin my game, but I might not find out for 50 years of gameplay
18:35:51 <andythenorth> when I found out an essential grf disabled itself
18:36:19 <Rubidium> jrabbit: well, your friend has installed a newer version of OpenTTD than the one Debian provides. Nothing odd about that
18:36:41 <Rubidium> what would help him is updating the base graphics from inside the game
18:38:09 <andythenorth> could grf version 8 ditch TTDP compatibility? And deprecate / mandate certain things?
18:38:13 <jrabbit> is there a way to name my server in the directory?
18:38:58 <Rubidium> you can at least set it in the config file; only change it while OpenTTD is stopped or you run it with -x (don't save config file upon exit)
18:39:20 <Rubidium> there's like a setting to modify it in-game as well
18:39:59 <Rubidium> try set server_name "boring name"
18:43:03 <jrabbit> LSA lib pcm.c:7223:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured is thatwarning or critical?
18:43:50 <jrabbit> he says he doesn't see *any* servers ethier in the multiplayer list after switching it to internet
18:45:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth: grfv8 could certainly require certain things to be true or done or whatever
18:46:12 <jrabbit> Rubidium: dpoes the server need the graphics?
18:46:49 <jrabbit> it stops on authorizing he says
18:47:15 <andythenorth> I wouldn't mind losing compatibility with lots of grfs
18:47:32 <andythenorth> it would bring into sharp focus the need to not be stupid about licensing
18:48:17 <andythenorth> "Your favourite grf doesn't work any more, and it's not sensibly licensed? Tough" :P
18:48:57 <supermop_> why do we still have 2 palettes anyway?
18:49:50 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins
18:49:58 <jrabbit> hes goign to try on widnows :\
18:50:05 <andythenorth> and removing windows palette would cause whining
18:50:16 <planetmaker> andythenorth: grfv8 won't stop the backward compatibility hell
18:50:20 <jrabbit> he couldn't conenct to this network even so I think something is FUBAR'd on his debian
18:50:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why not? I am prepared to have my eyes opened :)
18:51:02 <supermop_> ive drawn everything in win palette because i didn't know i could do otherwise
18:51:08 <andythenorth> supermop_: same for me
18:51:17 <supermop_> will I have to redraw everything?
18:51:21 <andythenorth> it's stupid to be able to make the wrong choice as an author
18:51:38 <supermop_> or can it be corrected in an automated fashion
18:51:47 <planetmaker> andythenorth: removing backward compatibility for *all* newgrfs (and it would be that for a time), certainly won't buy friends
18:52:08 <planetmaker> supermop_: conversion windows -> dos is automatable
18:52:10 <andythenorth> supermop_: palette can be remapped with a photoshop action or such
18:52:54 <supermop_> could it be roadmapped, to give people x months to update grfs?
18:53:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you can convert the palette with grfcodec
18:53:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: why does it remove backward compatibility for all?
18:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> like "grfcodec -d -p2" and "grfcodec -e -p1"
18:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause> to convert a windows grf to dos palette
18:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe one can scan the newgrf whether it reads the current palette in action 6/7/9/D. and disable switching then?
18:56:27 * andythenorth would prefer a nuclear solution :P One palette
18:56:42 <Eddi|zuHause> also disable if it provides palette in action 14
18:56:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the button is basically for "legacy" grfs
18:57:05 <andythenorth> because action 14 is the mandated method...
18:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> +it's one of those things that may be handled better if we could assemble a grf config and check for errors in the "background", without disturbing the currently loaded game
18:59:48 <andythenorth> grftopia would somewhat solve it
18:59:54 <andythenorth> but grtopia will have a lot to check for
19:00:11 <andythenorth> this palette thing is stupid from an authoring perspective too
19:00:28 <andythenorth> 'no right way' just makes authoring needlessly complex
19:00:48 <andythenorth> nothing is gained by palette being an option when authoring
19:01:09 <planetmaker> Well, a grf v8 could ask for the dos palette. Though there's no good reason for that. Rather the variable to query the palette could be removed
19:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> edit all tutorials out there to remove the windows palette
19:01:27 <andythenorth> removing the var would be my suggestion
19:01:29 <planetmaker> and mandatory palette definition in a14
19:01:37 <andythenorth> 100% straightforward
19:02:11 <andythenorth> someone will now find the fricking unsolvable edge case :P
19:02:21 <andythenorth> probably involving an author no-one wants to offend :P
19:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but this will not help, because old grfs may still query the palette
19:03:02 <andythenorth> announce that at some point, only grf v8 will be supported :P
19:03:11 <andythenorth> with maybe 1 year pre-warning
19:03:17 <planetmaker> at least one year
19:03:32 <planetmaker> such things rather require a two-year rythm
19:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> now that is a stupid idea
19:03:48 <Rubidium> pff... OpenTTD only does the DOS palette, doesn't it?
19:03:49 <andythenorth> backwards compatibility is a right arse
19:04:06 <Rubidium> it happily converts it upon loading
19:04:34 <andythenorth> so a newgrf that disables due to wrong palette is...what? wrong?
19:04:49 <andythenorth> well-intentionedly wrong?
19:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is one broken newgrf, instead of 200
19:05:08 <Rubidium> andythenorth: well, if it does that it's pre action14
19:05:08 <Lakie> I imagine its mostly older grfs which existed before automatic palette convrsion was in OpenTTD.
19:05:32 <andythenorth> and no-one can fix these grfs?
19:05:33 <Rubidium> the problem is that it isn't fully automatic
19:05:49 <Rubidium> we don't detect the palette from the NewGRF; it needs to be specified some way
19:06:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how many grfs are still in the grf-pack and not on bananas?
19:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: too many
19:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the same thing will happen if you force grf version 8
19:07:16 <andythenorth> so the alternatives are:
19:07:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and there is actually no good reason to do that
19:07:30 <andythenorth> - continue allowing users to play broken games with no warning
19:07:40 <andythenorth> - go on a crazy coding mission to implement grftopia
19:08:33 <andythenorth> what is the marginal profit on a download of openttd?
19:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the joy that your hard work gets appreciated
19:09:11 <andythenorth> I like the idea of breaking loads of newgrfs
19:09:17 <andythenorth> it would make the forums interesting
19:09:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean more than "please allow changing newgrfs in the game" conversations?
19:09:52 <planetmaker> you don't want to become the anti-thesis of certain people, do you?
19:10:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: and at the same moment break savegame backward compatability, right?
19:10:27 <andythenorth> none of you like my suggestion? :P
19:11:27 <planetmaker> well, the backward thing could be solved by simply disallowing any newgrf change in a backward compatible mode
19:11:27 <andythenorth> it would help if knew what I was talking about a bit more
19:11:43 <planetmaker> still, I don't think to disallow all non grf-v8 newgrfs is the path to go
19:11:53 <Rubidium> well, personally I'd just drop the old crap. But that's because I don't use it, however I don't fancy the amount of whining that comes from that
19:12:16 <andythenorth> they'll whine, but not lift a finger to update it?
19:12:32 <planetmaker> those who whine are incapable
19:12:36 <Rubidium> it's more $stupid user
19:12:48 <Rubidium> that is addicted to $old newgrf
19:13:03 <Rubidium> and is able to whine like a spambot
19:13:06 <andythenorth> so old versions of openttd stopped working? I don't think so
19:13:23 * andythenorth is still puzzled
19:13:30 <Rubidium> try 0.3.5 on Lion ;)
19:13:32 <supermop_> but thats like a defacto fork of openttd
19:13:33 <planetmaker> I can't run and compile OpenTTD <~0.3 or so
19:13:36 <andythenorth> I only suggested this to try and help some of the users who are whining
19:13:49 <andythenorth> not being able to change the palette is technically correct
19:13:54 <planetmaker> those binaries don't work anymore ;-)
19:13:56 <andythenorth> but stupid from a user p.o.v
19:14:00 <supermop_> if you force a certain set of people to never use >1.1.x
19:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> like MorphOS users?
19:16:27 <andythenorth> the only way to remove something like detecting palette is a grf version change
19:16:53 <andythenorth> but if grf version can't be enforced, nothing is gained
19:16:53 <Rubidium> action14 works fine for that
19:17:02 <andythenorth> but not for this case of old grfs
19:17:13 <andythenorth> if we need to keep old grfs we're stuck with broken behaviour :(
19:17:41 <Rubidium> yeah, but action14 or grfv8 are equal with respect to what they can achieve
19:17:47 <Wolf01> does somebody know how to add multiple items svn:ignore with "svn propset"?
19:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: how is a forced grf version bump going to help with old grfs better than a non-mandatory action 14?
19:18:21 <andythenorth> I am missing the point somewhere
19:18:26 <Rubidium> Wolf01: items = files?
19:18:32 <andythenorth> we already have non-mandatory action 14, but we still have this problem
19:18:35 <andythenorth> so that's no answer
19:18:56 <Wolf01> I need to set ._* recuirsively for files and _sourced as folder
19:19:11 <Rubidium> Wolf01: I'd say find and xargs should do the job
19:19:53 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just start with requiring action14. No need to go to grfv8 to do that
19:20:05 <andythenorth> but then old grfs don't work?
19:20:21 <Rubidium> which is exactly what grfv8 would do
19:20:43 <jrabbit> if I change the map x/y in the cfg will the server generated map be larger?
19:20:52 <andythenorth> but doesn't breaking old grfs demands a grf version change? :o
19:21:26 <andythenorth> where is the variable for the palette anyway? I can't find it in specs
19:21:32 <Rubidium> only if the behaviour of variables/properties changes
19:22:02 <Rubidium> after all, if you add a very recent property in a NewGRF without 'escaping' it, it doesn't work in older versions of OpenTTD
19:22:16 <Rubidium> because it doesn't know that property it disables (part of) the NewGRF
19:22:33 <andythenorth> so I misunderstood the purpose of grf versions
19:22:39 <andythenorth> they're not particularly stable
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19:23:08 <planetmaker> what *might* be an idea is similar to noai api: newgrf compatibility flag. Thus if all active newgrfs play by certain version rules, other things like adding newgrfs become possible
19:23:27 <planetmaker> simply on grounds that they - according to the specs - cannot do something bad, like disable thmeselves
19:23:58 <Rubidium> but you need to know whether the to be added NewGRF does the same
19:24:16 <planetmaker> yes. Which would be indicated by an appropriate action14 entry or so
19:24:18 <Rubidium> (I seem to remember a (mis)feature that allows disabling of other NewGRFs)
19:24:20 <planetmaker> otherwise: unsafe
19:24:51 <andythenorth> ^^ World's Most Broken Newgrf feature
19:24:53 <Rubidium> and then you'll quickly get questions: why can't X be added by Y can be?
19:25:03 <planetmaker> thus: certain things are not allowed in a newgrf when it declares a certain action14 entry
19:25:15 <planetmaker> Rubidium: sure one will get that.
19:25:21 <planetmaker> But better than none, right?
19:25:25 <andythenorth> we swap one class of whining for another
19:25:29 <planetmaker> and the easy answer is: "old newgrf"
19:25:29 <andythenorth> but maybe a better class
19:25:42 <andythenorth> 'lobby your newgrf author for an upgrade'
19:25:55 * andythenorth might be able to find a dalestan quote
19:25:57 <Rubidium> but what when the NewGRF author lies?
19:26:12 <planetmaker> probably this would require to remove all fatal newgrf errors and all options to query other newgrfs
19:26:17 <Rubidium> we'll get back in the same piece of shit once again
19:26:17 <andythenorth> things seem to have gone a bit wrong somewhere
19:26:39 <planetmaker> Rubidium: it requires to remove the newgrfs ability to depend on others. Hard way
19:26:39 <andythenorth> the duty of the game is to maintain a reasonably sane API
19:26:47 <planetmaker> otherwise unsafe. Thus... no grf checks then
19:26:48 <andythenorth> the duty of newgrf authors is to keep up with that
19:26:56 <andythenorth> currently the API is insane
19:27:09 <andythenorth> and newgrf authors are apparently to be treated with kid gloves
19:27:11 <Rubidium> yeah, it's inherited by some 'insane' people
19:27:15 <planetmaker> thus also no check for other grfs or their parameters
19:27:22 <andythenorth> but there are only two who really whine badly
19:27:26 <andythenorth> and one is refusing to support ottd
19:27:31 <andythenorth> and the other doesn't release
19:27:39 <andythenorth> and insists ttdp is the reference spec
19:27:40 <Rubidium> andythenorth: if you make the NewGRF specs sane, you're basically adding something completely new
19:27:56 <andythenorth> 'reasonably sane'
19:27:58 <Lakie> MB has been using Openn for aa while
19:27:59 <andythenorth> nothing is actually sane
19:28:28 <Rubidium> sane, reasonably sane... all the same when talking about NewGRFs ;)
19:28:43 <Lakie> I thought OzTrans isue was with some things not matching specs?
19:28:54 <andythenorth> "As a coder in a rather disturbingly dynamic language, it behooves you to watch the spec and read every single change. Old limitations may disappear or new abilities may appear, and if you don't pay attention, you come out ... well, "smelling like roses" it ain't." - DaleStan
19:29:01 <Rubidium> Lakie: nah, not implementing it fast enough
19:29:14 * andythenorth misses the dalestan attitude
19:29:21 <Lakie> Heh, thats such a minor point really.
19:29:29 <Lakie> Not one to hold releases back by
19:29:48 <andythenorth> basically a load of newgrf authors are lazy, misinformed, stupid or absent. And they made bad choices about licenses. Meanwhile player suffers.
19:30:14 <Rubidium> so, better go for something completely different; something completely not NewGRF
19:30:21 <andythenorth> that is interesting
19:30:24 <Rubidium> something much more sane and human friendly
19:30:43 <andythenorth> that wasn't what I was advocating :P
19:30:44 <Rubidium> woepsie... there goes support for the original graphics
19:31:19 <Rubidium> andythenorth: you shouldn't break something subtly. That's going to haunt you for years
19:31:47 <Rubidium> but that'd be more OpenTTD II
19:32:06 <Rubidium> which won't be able to load OpenTTD (I) savegames anymore
19:32:16 <Lakie> I remember Oskar suggesting some half scripting engine thingy
19:33:18 <Rubidium> but given the fact that OpenTTD's development seems to be crawling to a standstill lately I don't think it'll happen any time soon
19:33:47 <andythenorth> it's probably 'done'
19:34:00 <andythenorth> no interesting problems left
19:34:04 <andythenorth> time for something new?
19:34:10 <andythenorth> my projects are now a chore, not fun
19:34:49 * Rubidium hopes somebody has some nice system for the compile farm that works reasonably out-of-the-box
19:35:21 <Rubidium> as buildbot is just a disaster for our wishes
19:35:26 <planetmaker> not in love with it buildbot, eh?
19:35:45 <Rubidium> it'll work fine for a single repository with a single trigger for compilation
19:35:56 <Rubidium> single automatic trigger that is
19:36:03 <Rubidium> but two triggers: doesn't work
19:36:19 <andythenorth> if yacd was in trunk + eddi's crossing patch, "it's done"
19:36:29 <andythenorth> who gets to make the last commit? :D
19:36:59 <Rubidium> e.g. nightly builds + ci on limited amount of CFs fails to trigger the nightly build because the last version was already compiled (by the ci)
19:37:27 <Rubidium> and fetching from different repositories is something that fails pretty much as well
19:37:30 <andythenorth> "rxxxxx: last commit. Good bye" :P
19:37:58 <Alberth> rxxxxx: that's all folks!
19:38:21 <Lakie> Not too much, been fairly busy this week alluke. I was in the process of working out which FIRS cargos to use on wagons last I was working on it.
19:38:29 <planetmaker> would hudson / jenkins be an alternative?
19:38:35 <andythenorth> finish in style :)
19:38:45 <alluke> you can always ask me if you need to
19:38:48 <Rubidium> planetmaker: hudson runs everything locally IIRC
19:39:00 <alluke> will they use cargo classes?
19:40:01 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and that means only Linux builds (or cross compiles)
19:40:49 <planetmaker> Rubidium: allegedly they support distributed builds
19:41:55 <andythenorth> if it was 'done' all feature request / whining threads could simply be locked :)
19:41:57 <Rubidium> I didn't find anything in the documentation
19:42:00 <andythenorth> and all tickets closed
19:42:39 <Wolf01> Terkhen, is it yours the svn-script project on google code? :D
19:42:42 <Lakie> It'd be hard to use the FIRs cargos without cargo classes, or atleast, considerbly more messy.
19:42:56 <andythenorth> I closed a trac for a big piece of software earlier this year. Marked 150 tickets as "won't fix" and shut it :)
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19:43:30 <jrabbit> ok so we got him hostign a game on windows, he has 3979 opened on the router
19:43:37 <jrabbit> but the game gets stuck on "authorizing"
19:44:45 <planetmaker> but I'm not 100% sure whether it's just sharing CPU or really building different archs
19:45:39 <jrabbit> gah this is such a shame, openttd worked great last time I played multiplayer
19:46:08 <Alberth> opened both tcp and udp?
19:46:26 <jrabbit> 3979/tcp open unknown
19:46:28 <Rubidium> why-o-why are we still using ipv4 and nat?
19:46:35 <jrabbit> does it need udp as well?
19:46:43 <jrabbit> (I assume nmap would tell me)
19:46:45 <DorpsGek> Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
19:47:41 <Alberth> this text seems to suggest you do
19:48:46 <planetmaker> jrabbit: the better reference than nmap would actually be OpenTTD's documentation. Which mentions the ports and the protocols
19:49:27 <jrabbit> planetmaker: well I was jsut testing if he opened it
19:52:13 <frosch123> can someone summarise the result of the discussion of the last two hours?
19:52:57 <planetmaker> frosch123: no real summary possible as there's no real conclusion
19:53:03 <frosch123> why bother with old grfs and nfo stuff when we have nml?
19:53:17 <planetmaker> no, not that. NML had no bearing there
19:53:21 <planetmaker> it was purely about specs
19:53:23 <frosch123> just make sure nml produces sane stuff
19:53:43 <Alberth> but that needs new sane primitives
19:54:04 <planetmaker> about newgrf-interoperability and how the current specs sink 9 out of 10 hopes to get a good solution there
19:54:21 <frosch123> Alberth: sorry, i misworded. just make sure the input of nml is sane
19:54:54 <Rubidium> planetmaker: don't forget savegame compatability regarding breaking stuff
19:55:04 <frosch123> planetmaker: oh, was it about "newgrf authors are not able to cooperate, so openttd has to do it" ?
19:55:26 <Alberth> more like let's ditch the current specs
19:56:07 <planetmaker> in the end effect, yes. And about what to do with the old shit^Wstuff which is uncooperative
19:56:10 <frosch123> do we have a better one?
19:57:00 <andythenorth> it pretty much does come down to "newgrf authors are not able to cooperate, so openttd has to do it"
19:57:05 <andythenorth> except openttd can't
19:57:40 * andythenorth is still puzzled
19:58:02 <andythenorth> why do some badly-behaved newgrf authors - who aren't around any more - get to define what the spec should be?
19:58:28 <andythenorth> ^ (probably aren't around)
19:59:13 <Rubidium> they defined it the way it is
19:59:34 <Rubidium> if you want to keep compatability (savegame and/or 'mods'), you need to keep supporting the old crap
19:59:45 <andythenorth> where is the var for palette anyway? I can't find it?
20:00:13 <alluke> colossal made set of small cars years ago
20:00:22 <alluke> but they dont work on new ottd
20:00:26 <andythenorth> if we keep supporting the old crap, we're supporting incompatibilty
20:00:32 <andythenorth> e.g. disabling other grfs
20:00:42 <andythenorth> and allowing newgrf to care about palette
20:00:44 <frosch123> why do you bother about the palette?
20:00:49 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the var in which context?
20:01:06 <andythenorth> the var that the newgrf checks before it disables itself, breaking the game
20:01:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the whole issue is about newgrfs knowing about eachother
20:01:20 <Rubidium> global pallete? default pallete? palette of the loaded newgrf?
20:01:33 <Alberth> which gets worse with town control :p
20:01:35 <frosch123> err, isn't the palette issue somewhat solved?
20:01:39 <planetmaker> if that door was completely shut, many issues would be gone or at least made much less severe
20:01:48 <Rubidium> andythenorth: in GRFConfig::palette?
20:01:54 <frosch123> ottd has only one palette now, new grfs can specify their palette, so why bother about old ones?
20:02:12 <andythenorth> search of newgrf wiki doesn't produce any useful results
20:02:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: action 7
20:03:04 <Rubidium> in that context: var 8D
20:03:59 <andythenorth> and that var is useful for ottd how?
20:04:08 <andythenorth> apart from it allows newgrfs to break a game
20:04:35 <frosch123> the user resp. the grf can basically choose what it shall return
20:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> why-o-why are we still using ipv4 and nat? <-- it's a failure of politics (who don't understand anything technical) to enforce transition on the monopoly-like structures of large ISPs
20:05:21 <andythenorth> if the user sets the wrong palette (which is basically a 50:50 coin flip) then they can play 50 years before discovering an important grf is disabled
20:05:30 <andythenorth> there is no way to know what the correct palette is
20:05:36 <andythenorth> so it's a crap shoot
20:05:44 <andythenorth> multiplied by the number of grfs
20:05:55 <andythenorth> so basically any game is almost certainly broken
20:05:56 <Rubidium> 99% of the cases it's Windows
20:06:33 <frosch123> i do not see the point in your argument
20:06:49 <frosch123> shall we only allow grfs with dos palette?
20:06:51 <Eddi|zuHause> now it's like microsoft saying: "we won't implement it [in older/widespread windows versions] because the ISPs don't use it" and the ISPs saying "we won't use it, because older/widespread versions of windows don't support it"
20:06:55 <frosch123> and what would we gain by that?
20:07:21 <Rubidium> but... andythenorth: what about making OpenGFX DOS paletted? Then OpenTTD will default for those to the DOS palette and the NewGRFS will simply be broken all the time
20:07:29 <andythenorth> since then the user has posted exactly what I think the problem is ;P
20:07:30 <Rubidium> and you can 'force' them to add the action14
20:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> nml already forces a palette entry (afaik)
20:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> grfcodec can do that as well, with a legacy-parameter in case someone wants to support ancient TTDPatch versions
20:08:44 <andythenorth> the argument is really odd
20:08:53 <andythenorth> I don't even know if I can put it in words
20:08:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: imo it makes no sense to change newgrfs in scenarios
20:09:18 <andythenorth> "we don't allow palette changing in game because some newgrfs (in an attempt to enforce correct palette) might disable themselves, thereby breaking game"
20:09:19 <frosch123> there are only two consistent ways
20:09:26 <andythenorth> which is logical and correct, but just wrong
20:09:37 <frosch123> 1) do it like now. scenarios are savegames and depend on specific grfs and their versions
20:09:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: carry on :) but I'm not suggesting allowing to change newgrfs
20:10:06 <frosch123> 2) do it the albert & terkhen way: make scenarios not depend on any particular grf at all, and always use the newest version when starting a game
20:10:43 <Rubidium> the one where a scenario = heightmap + location/name of towns/industries?
20:10:49 <andythenorth> in an attempt to protect user from a broken game they are required to instead play a palette guessing game which almost guarantees a broken game
20:10:56 <andythenorth> so the result is: broken game :P
20:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> people want option 3) like they did before: use the scenario's grfs for industry/houses, but allow free choice of vehicle sets
20:11:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: neverthelees, the palette argument is silly. either do it right and test activate grfs to check whether something changes and revert back before applying it to the game (you can also allow chaning parameters in that case), or just don't do it at all
20:13:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: that's grftopia :P
20:16:23 * Rubidium wonders... if not having the right palette for a particular NewGRF is such a big issue and enforcing to support only GRFv8 is the solution, wouldn't that break the NewGRF. So why not say that the NewGRF is broken as it doesn't specify the right palette? Instead of laying the blame on OpenTTD not allowing to manually fix said NewGRF each time you start a new game
20:18:01 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. *note* using a mouse on a cat is a bad idea
20:18:20 <supermop_> what problems are being caused by the current paletting situation?
20:19:02 <frosch123> we can display a big red text when adding the grf: "this grf does not properly specify colours, and may display sprites incorrectly. please contact the authors and ask for an update"
20:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: colours are very brown or very pink if the wrong one is used
20:20:31 <andythenorth> is it a straw man case anyway? Does anyone know of a grf that disables when palette is wrong?
20:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: the main problem is that the "windows" palette is more widespread among popular older grfs (most actually get supplied in both palettes, but the windows one is more widely used), but the "DOS" palette is theee better and more logical one.
20:21:40 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_: so if OpenGFX switches to the dos palette, all loaded grfs will default to dos as well, but a majority of those will be windows, and thus wrong
20:21:44 <andythenorth> but we established they can be converted programmatically?
20:21:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the main solution is that ottd trunk only uses the dos palette now, and assumes win palette for all grfs by default
20:22:00 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the palette *is* converted automatically
20:22:04 <frosch123> i.e. trunk does not behave like 1.0 or 1.1 which use the palette of the baseset as default
20:22:09 <Rubidium> but knowing which palette is used can't be done automatically
20:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: ah, interesting
20:22:50 <andythenorth> mechanical turk :P
20:22:50 <andythenorth> human converts them
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20:23:25 <supermop_> managed to crash opera there
20:25:51 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the NewGRF settings window should display whether the palette was read from the GRF or "guessed"
20:26:04 <Rubidium> andythenorth: my assumption that there are NewGRFs that disable themselves is somewhat solidified by ActionB message-id 01
20:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and a user switching the palette will result in MD5/palette pair being stored in the cfg
20:28:57 <andythenorth> oops - my mistake
20:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> storing the grfid is useless, because most grfs come in a DOS and Windows variant
20:29:50 <andythenorth> those grfs are wrong :P
20:30:00 <andythenorth> and now our discussion is circular :)
20:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> those GRFs are right as long as they are developed with TTDPatch in mind
20:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd being able to convert palettes is not that old
20:46:36 <alluke> why not just call it rubbish or junk? :P
20:46:37 <Chris_Booth> sounds very american
20:46:58 <Chris_Booth> why not call it recyclables?
20:48:41 <Chris_Booth> I like refuse it is the most 'Proper' term IMO
20:53:27 <Eddi|zuHause> "recyclables" says something entirely different than "waste"
20:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the first one i'd translate with "Wertstoffe" and the second with "Abfall"
20:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> which have diametrically opposite connotations
20:54:25 <andythenorth> it's a question of value
20:54:31 <Chris_Booth> yes Eddi|zuHause, but what would refuse translate to?
20:54:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: i have never heard that word (in this context) before
20:55:17 <andythenorth> it's very UK-english
20:55:33 <Eddi|zuHause> they didn't teach this in school
20:55:44 <Chris_Booth> yes, it is what we use as a collective term of both waste/rubish and recyclables
20:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and it never occured on doctor who either
20:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: i don't think there is such a word in german
20:56:49 <peter1138> refuse is pronounced differently to refuse too
20:56:52 <andythenorth> you'd never choose to use refuse given a choice
20:57:02 <andythenorth> you would possibly even refuse it :P
20:57:20 <Chris_Booth> yes I think you would refuse someones refuse
20:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: if i hadn't been part of this discussion, i'd expect "refuse" to be "biological waste" (i.e. a word with 4 letters starting with s and ending with t) :p
20:59:45 <Chris_Booth> well you wouldn't be that far out with that guess Eddi
21:00:17 <opa> isn't it something (material) that has been refused
21:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: but there is nothing remotely relating to "recyclables" in that thought
21:01:10 <Chris_Booth> When the term is used in the UK it is used to descibe unsorted waste
21:01:16 <V453000> then you need to rename recycling plant to shitplant
21:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: but germans are quite obsessive with sorting their waste :p
21:02:00 <V453000> :D you mean their waste like refuse or their PET bottles from paper? :D
21:02:06 <andythenorth> it has been an interesting day of ottd chat
21:02:07 <Chris_Booth> aaah we are not so here, you sort you metal, plastic and card. you green waste and then brown
21:02:17 <andythenorth> and I think I'll stop before it gets any worse :P
21:02:22 <Chris_Booth> but they are all picked up from the street on the same day
21:02:25 <Chris_Booth> in the same truck
21:02:32 <Twerkhoven[L]> no black recycle box for glass and electricals and textiles yet cb?
21:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: we even sort green glass from white glass and brown glass :p
21:03:02 <Chris_Booth> not yet TWerkhoven
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21:03:17 <Chris_Booth> we have 2 bins 1 box and bags for card
21:03:42 <Chris_Booth> glass isn't pickup from my house
21:03:50 <Chris_Booth> have to take that back to the supermarket
21:03:58 <Chris_Booth> or local recycling centre
21:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> at least in the cities there are glass containers on every second street corner
21:05:00 <Chris_Booth> I wish that was the case
21:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not usually picked up from homes
21:05:09 <Chris_Booth> I have seen that in germany and in france
21:05:24 <Chris_Booth> but in the UK we have to take it somewhere
21:05:35 <planetmaker> "Spannungsabfälle kommen in die rote Tonne"
21:05:37 <Eddi|zuHause> paper may be picked up from home, but that depends on region. mostly it's just another container next to the glass ones
21:06:42 <Chris_Booth> I liked what they had in austria, they had a glass bin in the supermarket and it gave you so many euros back for a given wieght of glass
21:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> then there's "recycleable waste" ("Wertstoffmüll", yellow) and "other waste" ("Restmüll", grey) picked up from homes. in cities also "biological waste" ("Biomüll", brown), in rural areas this is uncommon, as people usually have a compost in their garden
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