IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-22
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00:39:08 <caracal> is there a way to find your road depots besides just wandering around looking for them? some i built years ago and the city has grown up around them
00:39:16 <caracal> stations, there's a list, but depots?
00:42:32 <lugo> caracal, well you cam toggle visibility of city houses
00:43:10 <caracal> i guess that'd work ... so no separate list of them, eh?
00:43:56 <lugo> not that i knew of, but i'm not 100% sure
00:44:39 <caracal> s'cool, thanks for the suggestion ... i keep forgetting that you can make houses *disapper*, not just turn them translucent
00:45:27 <caracal> took me a while to figure out how, and managed it mostly by accident, but at least now i know ;)
00:56:57 <lugo> caracal, have you tried clicking on a vehicles 'auto-focus' button while holding down ctrl yet? :)
00:57:30 <caracal> i have not, but will try it
00:58:32 <caracal> ah ... that does a "follow" on the vehicle in the main viewport ... could be handy sometimes
00:59:03 <MNIM> alternatively, if you did enter depots into the orders
00:59:18 <MNIM> Ctrl+ Click the order to the depot
01:00:34 <caracal> sure ... if you can find a vehicle based at that depot, you can always open its view and tell it to "go to depot", then once it's there, voila, there's the depot
01:00:48 <caracal> but with a city full of busses, sometimes that's tricky <g>
01:05:03 <caracal> i have at least learned that it's usually a good idea to enter a depot into the vehicle's travel orders somewhere, and that's typically the vehicle's "home" depot
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01:43:08 <caracal> gah ... i have 50-odd busses, and now a new model has come along ... any simple way to upgrade them all, or automatically, or must i catch them one at a time?
01:43:24 <caracal> i remember seeing an "autorenew" option somewhere, is that what i need?
01:45:09 <caracal> what i'd *like* to be able to say is something like "any time any vehicle X goes into any depot, replace it with a vehicle Y"
01:46:40 <caracal> ah, i think i just found it ... "replace" in the vehicles list, under the Manage List menu
01:56:44 <caracal> yep, that's just what i wanted! a bit more work for airplanes, though, since you frequently want to change their destinations from small airports to larger ones at the same time you upgrade
01:57:01 <caracal> which is where shared orders come in handy, at least saves a bit of work
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06:48:07 * dihedral wonders if someone's on the ignore list or someone else is monologuing :P
06:50:28 <dihedral> btw. the irc connection is coming along
06:52:32 <dihedral> missing a back route (irc -> openttd) and have a char which i do not expect to see in the message - i guess though that this char is the LTR or RTL char ^^
06:53:12 <dihedral> then i can move on to the stuff like is user in channel etc.
06:54:04 <dihedral> i moved to a different irc library, as this one provides channel and user objects, with easy access to lists about the channels a certain user is in ^^
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07:00:09 <dihedral> planetmaker, ? to what? :-P
07:00:59 <planetmaker> you're saying the previously used irc lib didn't allow to find out which channel the bot or a user of the bot is in?
07:02:57 <dihedral> good morning Terkhen
07:03:48 <dihedral> planetmaker, basically yes, you could get hold of the channel(s) the bot was on, but not see the channels or the status of a user once you received the message
07:04:00 <dihedral> you were only given a string (user) instead of a User Object
07:05:13 <dihedral> the lib i am working with now, is an extension of the previous lib, reworked to an Event driven lib, and provides different objects for channel and user actions
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08:19:27 <Terkhen> I'm testing stuff so I'll know that soon :P
08:20:17 <JVassie> testing anything interesting? :)
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08:21:09 <JVassie> CETS currently has 8 locos intro'd in the 20s, and 3 locos intro'd in the 30s
08:21:49 <Terkhen> interesting mostly to me, it is for university :P
08:23:45 * JVassie starts on old SBB electrics..
08:23:58 <JVassie> I guess we can do BLS as well
08:31:21 <JVassie> hmm planetmaker Eddi|zuHause there?
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08:37:59 <planetmaker> JVassie, it's about 1000% more productive, if you just share your thoughts instead of sharing that you *might* want to share thoughts...
08:38:28 <JVassie> just a note regarding some of the SBB stuff im putting in
08:38:41 <JVassie> for the Ae 3/6 I and the Re 4/4 I
08:39:05 <JVassie> there are two versions with identical names, which came in seperate batches, with different stats
08:39:19 <JVassie> and in the case of the Re 4/4 I, different looks
08:40:51 <planetmaker> then add a note about that and... done ;-)
08:42:12 <JVassie> theres not much point being hugely extensive with the shunters i guess
08:44:04 <JVassie> a lot of them are very similar in looks and stats
08:48:05 <peter1138> i don't think people actually use them, do they?
08:52:34 <JVassie> well its things like the V100 of germany
08:52:40 <JVassie> which are quite common
08:52:50 <JVassie> and have a use aside from sitting in a yard shunting
08:54:53 <planetmaker> eddi considers shunting engines suitable for short-distance feeder services
08:56:42 <planetmaker> I'm not entirely sure whether the normal engines won't do for this purpose. But it'd mean to leave out this category entirely
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09:16:58 <JVassie> planetmaker: thats why i think it best just to use those which best represent shunters
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09:19:13 <JVassie> quite a beast of a loco
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09:28:09 <caracal> is there a way to center the already-open minimap on the current viewport view? i know that closing and re-opening it will do that, but was wondering if there was another way ... couldn't find it in the hotkeys or on the UI
09:29:21 <planetmaker> JVassie, really... please add something meaningful to your highlights
09:30:12 <planetmaker> no. IRC works similar to e-mail. If you just send an e-mail like "hello" it's pointless
09:30:34 <JVassie> he just joined the spreadsheet so i was saying hi
09:30:34 <planetmaker> irc has the advantage, if the first line sets the topic, it's clear when one returns later what is to be discussed
09:31:08 <planetmaker> I redact the implicit conclusion I jumped to ;-)
09:31:38 <JVassie> so many motors cars on the swiss railways..
09:33:24 <JVassie> were not publishing nout :p
09:34:24 <Yexo> caracal: the button right of the + button
09:35:06 <Yexo> I don't think there is a hotkey for that
09:35:13 <Yexo> I meant the button in the window itself
09:35:50 <caracal> oh duh, that's exactly what it does, and i'm sure i saw that tooltip a hundred times ... thanks!!
09:36:33 <JVassie> least BLS doesnt have as much stock as the SBB
09:36:45 <JVassie> are there any other swiss private companies we want to represent in CETS?
09:37:38 <JVassie> perhaps BOB, MOB, RhB, SOB
09:38:23 <JVassie> and potentially AB, THURBO and ZB
09:38:55 <caracal> so in early-year scenarios, at least (and maybe later ones as well) there's no way for a ship to load oil from an oil rig out in the open ocean, right?
09:39:16 <Yexo> caracal: if you have a ship, just order it to load at the oil rig
09:39:39 <Yexo> or is the problem that you have no ships available?
09:39:43 <caracal> oh? it'll accept the rig as a route destination?
09:40:09 <Yexo> oil rigs have a special in-build station that can be used by all companies
09:40:31 <caracal> i'm too stupid for trains, so i tend to focus on ships and planes <g>
09:41:18 <JVassie> helicopters can also land at oil rigs
09:41:57 <caracal> ah ... i tried that but couldn't get it to work ... must have done it wrong
09:42:32 <caracal> didn't click on the right position or something
09:43:17 <caracal> i figured it should work, since the oil rig's art has a big prominent helipad right on it <g>
09:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: RhB and stuff only if we allow narrow gauge
09:44:06 <Eddi|zuHause> but for swiss stuff, that would probably be necessary
09:44:27 <JVassie> Ill have to check how much NG track there is without OHLE
09:44:43 <JVassie> dont think there will be much
09:45:12 <JVassie> we could probably have 3 railtypes to cover NG if we can spare them
09:45:28 <JVassie> low axle weight and speed non elec
09:45:33 <JVassie> low axle weigth and speed elec
09:45:39 <JVassie> higher axle weight and speed elec
09:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> is axle weight really that relevant for narrow gauge?
09:49:49 <JVassie> i dont know a huge amount
09:49:54 <JVassie> Snail would know more
09:50:03 <peter1138> too many railtypes :S
09:50:06 <JVassie> hes offline on MSN atm though
09:50:28 <JVassie> Eddi, how would you get around it for NG then?
09:51:23 <JVassie> I mean were not gonna even look at the different NG sizes
09:51:44 <JVassie> 750mm, 1000mm for example
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09:57:25 <JVassie> mmm RhB is all electrified
09:58:21 <JVassie> NG version of the FLIRT EMU :p
09:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i'd probably say expect only 2 NG railtypes, normal and electrified
10:00:19 <JVassie> the speed limits will determine themselves for the most part with locomotive speeds
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10:00:31 <JVassie> unless its possible to change max speed by current year?
10:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
10:01:10 <peter1138> you can do that on the vehicle side
10:01:34 <JVassie> anyway the max speed RhB is 100kph
10:02:23 <Yexo> <JVassie> unless its possible to change max speed by current year? <- only if you save/load the game, so not in mp
10:02:35 <JVassie> well as in i was thinkign to simulate older and newer versions of Ng track
10:02:41 <JVassie> without wasting more railtype slots
10:02:54 <JVassie> well we could set NG speed limit to 120kph
10:03:00 <JVassie> which is reasonable enough IMO
10:03:05 <peter1138> yes, you can simulate that on the vehicle side
10:03:13 <peter1138> bit nasty, admittedly
10:03:49 <JVassie> ah i see what you mean
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10:04:20 <Yexo> JVassie: what problem are you trying to solve? what would be the difference between old and new NG tracks?
10:04:35 <Yexo> if it's only the speed: are there any faster ng engines available for the old track?
10:04:47 <JVassie> but 120kph seems to be the fastest any NG loco/MU goes
10:05:01 <Yexo> you can also leave out the speed limit completely for the track type
10:05:03 <JVassie> Not even sure there 'are' old tracks
10:05:34 <Yexo> just limiting the speed of each engine will do as well
10:06:10 <JVassie> I guess as the range of speeds isnt that great
10:06:21 <JVassie> not much need for railtype speed limits
10:07:16 <JVassie> now what would be a really cool feature are 'points/switches' on slopes! :p
10:08:36 <peter1138> freeform landscape!
10:08:58 <JVassie> you could simulate rack railways with points on slopes
10:09:26 <peter1138> stations on curves!
10:09:31 <peter1138> (i had a patch for that, once)
10:09:46 <JVassie> seems to eb your favourite by-line :D
10:09:50 <peter1138> it was before newstations support
10:12:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be "i have a patch for that" :p
10:12:32 <peter1138> newgrf bridges were cool too
10:12:40 <Sacro> heh, the glory days of /o/
10:13:44 <Sacro> i wonder if we merged a load of them patches
10:15:32 <peter1138> a lot of enginepools from 2008, heh
10:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> give them to MB ;)
10:22:04 <JVassie> some 172 entries in the tracking table so far
10:27:02 <Terkhen> do you have more engines than 2cc already? :P
10:27:21 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, re #2784: in order to allow higher wagons I left space above the sprites, so that's allowed for :-)
10:27:40 <planetmaker> I'd also prepare an alignment template right away for normal and extended height wagons.
10:27:52 <planetmaker> Like I have for the pikka-style alignment templates
10:27:57 <Yexo> planetmaker: you should be able to use a single template
10:28:03 <Yexo> just prepare it for the extended height
10:28:13 <Yexo> the autocrop feature of nml/grfcodec should do the rest
10:28:18 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: some of the sprites have darker dots in the middle, those were the original anchor points from my test run
10:28:40 <planetmaker> I see :-) That's what they're for, I wondered about them
10:28:50 <JVassie> Terkhen: i imagien so
10:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: some have two, depending on direction they needed different ones
10:29:34 <planetmaker> Yexo, yes, should work. I guess that works when there are no sprites yet. For the 'normal' vehicles I need both as I have vehicles following one or the other.
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10:31:08 <planetmaker> hm... somehow I managed to detach this channel's view in a separate window... without a way to merge it back into my xchat one :S
10:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i haven't researched too much, but i expect 4 different wagon sizes throughout the game: ca. 9-10m, ca. 12-14m, ca. 18-20m and ca. 24-26m, i'd say make them 6lu, 8lu, 12lu and 16lu
10:32:04 <Terkhen> planetmaker: right click->xchat->attach
10:32:07 <planetmaker> Yes... though 8 and 6 lu don't need anything special, they can follow the pikka templates
10:32:21 <planetmaker> Terkhen, thanks. I'll try to recall next time :-)
10:32:34 <JVassie> in the ___ direction obviously
10:32:38 <planetmaker> JVassie, 8/8 is 32px
10:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: 4px in - directio
10:33:09 <Eddi|zuHause> but this is the second-least interesting direction ;)
10:33:14 <planetmaker> anyhow, that means we need two over-length templates
10:33:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, do we need the additional views also for the 8/8 and 6/8 wagons?
10:34:13 <planetmaker> we might give it a try without and see
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10:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i guess the DRG didn't take the 18t/20t limits too strictly...
10:37:25 <Eddi|zuHause> BR 03.10 -> 18.4t
10:38:28 <Eddi|zuHause> changed the limits for the colours to 18.5 and 20.8
10:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i made the axle weight column with automatic colour
10:41:32 <Ammler> are you aware that those 1tile waggons glitch or is there a patch to apply?
10:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, they glitch
10:41:51 <planetmaker> we're aware of it
10:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> a solution is in the works, but not quite there yet
10:42:23 <planetmaker> and... I haven't given eddi's patch a try
10:42:47 <Ammler> what about smaller waggons?
10:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the var 60+ patch is not supported in the grf yet ;)
10:43:12 <planetmaker> smaller in what way?
10:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: actual scale would be another 50% bigger ;)
10:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> so they are already smaller ;)
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10:44:51 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: you do compare in relation with original set?
10:48:31 <Ammler> (keeping the special scale in mind)
10:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: no, i don't care about the original set
10:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: take the DBSet as example, a passenger wagon is almost the same length as a BR 01, but the BR 01 is twice as long in the game
10:52:16 <Ammler> I had some 4LV feelings as I watched the train going around on my circle :-)
10:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, indeed, they do have some relation. but imho the 4LV vehicles are too high
10:56:44 <peter1138> so are the screenshots yet?
10:56:47 <Ammler> on the curves, they are nice
10:56:52 <planetmaker> there's a test grf, peter1138
10:57:08 <Ammler> but climbing tiles and tunnels could use some love :-)
10:58:18 <planetmaker> which is basically eddi's original implementation as an engine becoming available in 1877
11:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> currently known glitches are: tunnel, bridge, foundation, slope. also sometimes wagons are not drawn in the right order
11:06:48 <JVassie> sounds to me ike we should also provide support for 'normal' scale ;p
11:06:54 <michi_cc> planetmaker: Shorter wagons might still need the same tricks as the longer wagons. Otherwise mixing short and long wagons will look very weired in curves.
11:07:35 <michi_cc> Or try to patch OpenTTD to eliminate those issues wherever possible :)
11:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i fear shorter wagons might suffer from fs#3569-related glitches (point 5 in the above post)
11:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because you can't extend the last wagon part to 8lu
11:09:29 <Eddi|zuHause> or shorter wagons consist of one part, and use var45 related to the actual wagon before/after it
11:09:49 <planetmaker> the latter is what I thought of
11:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> only doesn't work with the last wagon ;)
11:10:33 <planetmaker> well... that could get an extra case.
11:10:56 <planetmaker> first and last vehicle of a chain is relatively easily queried for
11:11:29 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it'll be have like the first wagon is always directly straight related to the non-existing wagon
11:11:32 <planetmaker> michi_cc, and patching OpenTTD is indeed an option ;-)
11:12:20 <planetmaker> but this all then needs careful testing.
11:13:01 <Ammler> the ugly thing on the original set are the gaps between waggons, not sure, if I missed the long waggons
11:15:03 <Eddi|zuHause> there are plenty of sets with not-long-wagons ;)
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11:15:58 <planetmaker> s/plenty/only/ ;-)
11:16:06 <Ammler> yes, just mean if wagons are adjacent, do you miss this feature?
11:16:30 <planetmaker> why should I miss that?
11:16:50 <Ammler> (the one 1tile wagons)
11:17:35 <Ammler> you don't see single wagons on a new generation train from the newer sets
11:34:24 <peter1138> why has nobody replaced engines with real-time 3d models yet?
11:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: intro date of the BR 44 maybe increase to 1937 (that's when series production started), before that, the BR 43 was preferred
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12:08:09 <planetmaker> ok :-) I haven't yet looked thoroughly at balancing and intro dates in the post ~1920 era
12:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the idea sounded so good to me that i just did it ;)
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12:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> something doesn't sound right: engine with additional tender: 57t, almost identical engine with builtin tender: 74t
12:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they forgot the additional tender in the weight
12:22:38 <planetmaker> in the first case? Probably
12:23:03 <planetmaker> because a separate vehicle doesn't add to the vehicles mass itself and its axle weight
12:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but the total weight that must be moved
12:23:26 <planetmaker> as do all other wagons
12:23:50 <planetmaker> but different tenders may be used, so it might not make too much sense to include an arbitrary one
12:24:23 <planetmaker> while a built-in is clearly part of the vehicle and has well-defined properties
12:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> tender carries 16m³ water, 6t coal, and weighs something itself
12:24:52 <planetmaker> thus like 25 ... 30t
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12:26:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll just add 30 to the number then... should be good enough ;)
12:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (or keep it like it is, and check if that was done to the other engines as well, where it isn't that apparent?)
12:28:58 <planetmaker> I'd add the weight and check others
12:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think the other engines did it like this, they have empty and full mass given
12:30:39 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: What about http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG-Baureihe_86 for a light cargo engine, that category is a bit thin right now. Problem is though that this would give a slight engine bunching around 1928 (and the electrics add to that as well). OTOH, the engines fall into three different axle weights, so it might be okay here.
12:30:58 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i wasn't that far yet
12:32:30 <michi_cc> NP, I was just looking for something for the light cargo category. I'm going to add it to the engine list anyway, core/ext/whatever can come later.
12:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not quite content with choosing the T18
12:46:15 <planetmaker> what's wrong about it?
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13:52:41 <JVassie> whats the greyish background colour on the timeline Eddi|zuHause?
13:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a blue-ish colour
13:53:29 <JVassie> and the different shades indicate?
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13:56:36 <michi_cc> JVassie: look at the top row :)
13:56:50 <JVassie> those are the different colours
13:57:02 <JVassie> im just wondering why some of the greens are lighter than others
13:59:14 <michi_cc> Because a different colour is easier to differentiate.
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14:11:00 <planetmaker> nice progress on the timeline chart :-)
14:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, looking good :)
14:14:56 <JVassie> also Eddi|zuHause; why the vertical line dividign Express into tow?
14:15:42 <JVassie> i see 3 columns in the timeline for express
14:15:55 <JVassie> there is a vertical lien between the 2nd and 3rd columns
14:26:57 <JVassie> couldnt see a need for it
14:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure i removed that line when i added the column, and it didn't show up here
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14:36:41 <ZirconiumX> meh - haven't been here for a while
14:37:26 <ZirconiumX> I come with a programming question - and to haunt
14:37:39 <ZirconiumX> what is the ideal amount of assertions
14:37:53 <ZirconiumX> and how do you use an assertion
14:42:45 * ZirconiumX appears to be talking to a brick wall
14:42:55 * ZirconiumX talks to the one to his right
14:44:41 <Terkhen> ideal amount of assertions = one for each place that requires an assertion
14:45:05 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Another railtype? ;)
14:45:13 <planetmaker> assert(patient > sufficient)
14:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking two, actually
14:45:18 <ZirconiumX> what the heck is an assertion other than an annoying error
14:45:30 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, what for?
14:45:33 <Terkhen> openttd assertions probably does not follow those rules though
14:45:41 <Terkhen> ZirconiumX: errors that should never be triggered
14:45:52 <Terkhen> if they are triggered, then either the assertion is wrong or your code is wrong
14:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> one "light" (either A or B) and one "heavy" (C)
14:47:17 <michi_cc> I'd use only one axle weight and instead include a 3rd + catenary. Two axle weights only make sense if there are several engines at the same time.
14:47:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think combined 3rd-rail+catenary is too realistic
14:48:32 <ZirconiumX> thanks DorpsGek / village idiot in dutch
14:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: for example the "Wannseebahn" had 3rd rail on the commuter track, and on the long-distance track, to allow the express-trains (ET125) with 120km/h to overtake the other trains with 80km/h
14:49:44 <planetmaker> well. We IMHO we should not need a separate track type for 3rd rail. That label is already there
14:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the commuter track would then use the A3 railtype, since they are not heavy at all, and the long-distance would use C3, because it is shared with heavy trains
14:49:59 <planetmaker> thus we can resort to existing track types there
14:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably true, but is irrelevant to the discussion ;)
14:52:04 <michi_cc> Okay, that makes sense, so the question is more if that is really needed from a gameplay POV.
14:54:28 <JVassie> There arent many german 3rd rail sets are there?
14:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> only S-Bahn Hamburg and S-Bahn Berlin
14:55:42 <JVassie> operate as seperate metro systems entirely
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14:58:08 <Yexo> peter1138: what would be the best way to make an engine run on railtype A if it's available but on railtype B if A is not available?
14:58:44 <Yexo> currently I'm thinking of writing a different value to the railtypetable depending on the availability of A and always using the same index
15:00:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that was the original thought
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15:01:13 <Belugas> i was not gone, i just changed the water of the pool :)
15:08:22 <Eddi|zuHause> there's water and electricity coming from the sky
15:08:49 <Belugas> pick up your camera and shoot!
15:11:10 <Yexo> I'll be using action6, as the action7 approach outlined there doesn't work if you want to test multiple railtypes apart from eachother
15:11:22 <Yexo> you'd end up with 2**num_railtypes actions
15:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a good idea
15:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> bah... there's like two dozen different diesel railcars in the 1930's
15:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but all only in small quantities, so none really stick out as "core"
15:17:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and they don't have proper numbers, either
15:18:50 <planetmaker> the action6 approach sounds indeed much more flexible
15:18:51 <michi_cc> Pick something that fits into the holes :) Local/commuter could still use a bit more whereas express is quite full already.
15:19:05 <planetmaker> which actually... I should do such a thing for OpenGFX+ Trains ;-)
15:20:06 <Yexo> planetmaker: not possible yet, needs implementation in nml :)
15:20:50 <planetmaker> though I wonder which railtypes I want to test against
15:21:02 <dihedral> lol - potential customer is planing a new website ... "we expect to have about 350 requests per second"
15:21:55 <planetmaker> @calc 350 * 86400
15:21:55 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 30240000
15:22:02 <planetmaker> wow. 3 million per day
15:22:22 <peter1138> yeah, the fallback approach works when you don't have 5 million types
15:25:57 <planetmaker> good we have action6 ;-)
15:32:46 * ZirconiumX has done epic switch...case fallthrough
15:33:14 <JVassie> dihedral: whats the website for?
15:33:23 <JVassie> some sort of ecommerce outfit i guess?
15:36:25 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: whats your thoughts on sets from sbahn berlin and sbahn hamburg, should we set the company to SBahn Berlin and SBahn Hamburg respectively? Or as theyre both subsiduaries of DB jsut use that?
15:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: keep them as DRG, and disable if no 3rd rail type is available
15:37:23 <JVassie> ill start adding them as entries
15:37:31 <JVassie> will give the set some nice early commuter options
15:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "company"/"region" is meant as a selector for the different epoch sets
15:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so don't do too many of them
15:37:53 <Eddi|zuHause> combine them if applicable
15:38:09 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. "swiss" instead of "SBB"
15:38:18 <JVassie> so merge SBB and BLS?
15:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> or use "swiss,SBB" and "swiss,BLS"
15:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can choose either, or "all swiss" in the epoch selector
15:39:15 <JVassie> ill just set company of these sbahn sets to DRG then
15:39:19 <JVassie> if that keeps it simpler
15:41:33 <Sacro> I need a new mail cilent that supports exchange and isn't Outlook
15:42:44 <JVassie> Outlook works fine with exchange
15:46:13 <Sacro> Outlook doesn't provide one
15:49:45 <JVassie> berlin + hamburg sbahn sets added
15:52:36 <dihedral> my boss did not believe me when i said what kind of traffic i would expect from those calculations
15:52:44 <dihedral> he said he'd give them 200GB/Month :-D
15:52:53 <dihedral> i had a laugh and did have to shake my head :-P
15:58:46 <Yexo> planetmaker: not possible yet, needs implementation in nml :)
16:00:12 <planetmaker> the railtype action6? Yes, I know
16:00:13 <Yexo> sorry, up+enter in the wrong window
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16:28:35 <caracal> i keep seeing "tourists" on some cost graphs, which i assume are a type of "passenger", but ... where do they come from? where do they (want to) go?
16:29:26 <caracal> in simutrans, there were specific "tourist attractions" that were pretty much like normal industries, but i haven't found the equivalent in ottd yet
16:29:54 <planetmaker> you need to play with the ecs newgrfs.
16:30:08 <planetmaker> One of them (towns vector? base vector?) provides them
16:31:46 <caracal> ah, more newgrf stuff ... which you told me must be selected in advance, before a scenario is even designed
16:33:05 <caracal> i just checked ... this scenario (sw usa) calls for town vector, but that one doesn't seem to be available for download
16:38:20 <caracal> so the scenario is just messed up, outdated, whatever
16:40:12 <planetmaker> and you tried to find the missing files from the file load dialogue, did you?
16:40:33 <caracal> it lists a half dozen, all red-tagged, and says "these aren't available"
16:41:09 <caracal> clearly scenario design, or at least maintenance, isn't a priority in the ottd community <g>
16:41:11 <planetmaker> then you're probably screwed unless you find that version elsewhere.... or again enable the scenario_developer and allow a (more or less) compatible version of the same newgrf to fill in
16:41:19 <planetmaker> oh. Then it's... a pain.
16:41:55 <planetmaker> it's missing good tools And that scenario pre-dates probably the online content
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17:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> please excuse this unscheduled downtime
17:46:30 <supermop> i will not. it is unexcusable
17:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> we used this downtime to do some necessary maintenance work, to ensure further excellent service
17:49:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so, whatcha screwed up in the mean time?
17:49:35 <planetmaker> I'm afraid, time stood still without your presence ;-)
17:52:28 <Eddi|zuHause> one can really not leave you people alone... damn
17:58:13 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I moved the E44 to universal because WP says that it was designed as such (and has a pic with passenger wagons)
18:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> we could maybe join the different SVT into one, with refit options to 2,3 or 4 wagons?
18:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the express diesel ones
18:03:11 <planetmaker> probably also a good idea :-)
18:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't fit in the table
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18:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think DRG/Epoch 2 is now complete
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18:55:56 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, good news :-)
18:56:08 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Not sure what to pick, but there should be something non-electric for passengers after 1942
18:56:10 <planetmaker> seems though that VOne ignores us
18:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> for epoch 3/4: do we make separate timelines for DR/DB? or focus on one first?
18:56:38 <planetmaker> IMHO we should consider them separately
18:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i was thinking making the BR22 appear earlier, since it was a DRG design, just not completed
18:56:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and P10 longer, obviously
18:57:08 <planetmaker> personally I'd opt to priorize DR as that does not yet exist
18:59:07 <michi_cc> Regardless of of DR/DB, we should do one complete timeline first (i.e. continue the existing prussian, DRG one).
19:00:27 <michi_cc> And related to the P10, every engine that was just built 3-4 years needs to get some extension, otherwise gone faster than you can buy any.
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19:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> one of those "would be more, if there wasn't war"
19:03:27 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth
19:05:08 <andythenorth> Yexo: someone has asked me about 'bare tile' stations for CHIPS
19:05:18 <andythenorth> iirc, we discussed that, and it's either not possible, or TMWFTLB?
19:06:09 <andythenorth> or maybe that was something else
19:06:45 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Indeed, that one looks quite good as a "war gap" filler.
19:06:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what is a 'bare tile' station?
19:07:23 <planetmaker> to me it sounds like the cargo tiles with tracks which are already there
19:07:33 <andythenorth> looks like a track tile
19:07:45 <andythenorth> "a void platform, a piece of track without anything but the underlying grass/desert/etc. as a station tile"
19:08:24 <planetmaker> definitely possible. But... relatively boring, eh?
19:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> NewStations has such an empty tile, but it has no railtype-support
19:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it has, but is unreleased :p
19:09:44 <andythenorth> that is why I am being asked about it
19:10:04 <andythenorth> I may be mistaken, but I think there was a problem doing it with full terrain support + new tracks
19:10:13 <andythenorth> don't see why, but I'm not very familiar with station spec
19:10:20 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: looks better now?
19:12:02 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, looks quite okay. Passenger engines ar still a bit thin, but that should be okay by stretching the buy period a bit.
19:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> some realism oddity: the 01.10 (1939) goes 150, but the 01.5 (1962) only 130
19:16:39 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: better loading times? acceleration? so its better at short runs?
19:17:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: the DR just didn't have the capability to run fast trains post-war
19:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> except on one test track, where they needed 180km/h locomotives, the top speed was generally 120km/h
19:18:36 <Hyronymus> planetmaker: are NML files already allowed on the forum?
19:19:07 <Hyronymus> guess you'll have to wait for Owen to be bored from Australia though
19:19:08 <planetmaker> at least I think I asked for that already ;-)
19:19:23 <planetmaker> yes, probably. It's nothing urgent, but there it won't be forgotten
19:20:16 <michi_cc> It took a loooooong time to get back to the pre-WWII travel time on Berlin-Hamburg.
19:20:29 <planetmaker> like mid 1990s, right?
19:22:28 * andythenorth has turned into a bad person
19:24:36 <planetmaker> what happened, andythenorth ? ;-)
19:24:48 <andythenorth> I am tempted to troll lego forums
19:25:18 <andythenorth> I tried hanging out in those communities for last year or so
19:25:23 <andythenorth> I don't really get on with them
19:25:29 <andythenorth> I like lego, I don't like lego communities
19:26:06 <planetmaker> This community is pretty good indeed
19:27:11 <andythenorth> lego community is full of people whining
19:27:42 <andythenorth> men in their thirties :P
19:27:57 <Terkhen> what are they whining about?
19:28:16 <andythenorth> I think the meta issue is that lego is an odd system
19:28:17 <Hyronymus> hey! nothing wrong with being a man in your 30's
19:28:37 <andythenorth> as a system for creating things, lego is hugely flexible
19:28:46 <andythenorth> but you can't hack it :P
19:28:53 <andythenorth> bit weird now I think about it
19:28:54 <planetmaker> it needs a flexible mind
19:29:06 <planetmaker> and it depends on the definition of "hack"
19:29:26 <andythenorth> using third party parts
19:29:36 <planetmaker> become more flexible :-P
19:29:43 <andythenorth> well that's my approach
19:30:02 <andythenorth> but many people rely on Lego group to 'give them what they want'
19:30:05 <planetmaker> but modding lego might be interpreted as 'that's not lego anymore'
19:30:10 <andythenorth> and they have two standard whines
19:30:24 <andythenorth> 1. "all lego is driven by marketing research"
19:30:36 <andythenorth> 2. "lego never ask their fans nor meet their needs"
19:30:46 * andythenorth doesn't like hanging out with retards
19:31:17 <planetmaker> it's two different things
19:31:33 <planetmaker> It's the same like we never listen to our users. Nor do we meet our players demands ;-)
19:31:43 <planetmaker> We just do *stuff*
19:31:47 <planetmaker> Just like you ;-)
19:32:01 * Terkhen finds those complains kind of familiar
19:32:35 <Terkhen> s/marketing research/never doing what whoever asked things that should be done/
19:33:02 <Terkhen> people don't seem to mind modding (patches) though
19:33:43 <andythenorth> it (lego) will become interesting when 3D printers are more common
19:33:48 <andythenorth> already people are printing lego parts
19:33:55 <andythenorth> it will make lego system open source
19:34:03 <andythenorth> dunno what lego group will do about that
19:34:09 <planetmaker> 3D printers are quite nice
19:34:19 <andythenorth> copyright is hard to enforce, unless 3D printers have DRM in
19:34:30 <andythenorth> one of my friends is getting a 3D printed wedding
19:34:46 <planetmaker> you can't enforce a printer to not print an arbitrary piece of lego...
19:35:09 <andythenorth> with enough computing power you could...
19:35:15 <andythenorth> pattern matching...
19:35:42 <planetmaker> those people using them for rapid prototyping will LOVE it
19:36:00 <andythenorth> they are quite cool
19:36:11 <andythenorth> already in this city, Airbus are printing airplane parts with them
19:36:15 <andythenorth> *large* airplane parts
19:36:53 <Terkhen> oooh, that sounds interesting :)
19:37:32 <planetmaker> I wonder... those 3D printer output is a kind of dust with glue...
19:38:12 <andythenorth> titanium in airbus case
19:38:49 <planetmaker> he, that *is* interesting technique
19:39:02 <andythenorth> maybe I print pixel art
19:39:36 * andythenorth ponders printing ottd :P
19:39:42 <planetmaker> I wonder what the 100g of 'ink' cost
19:40:27 <Terkhen> (cost of normal printer ink) ** 3
19:40:39 <planetmaker> I mean... I 'play' with dust which costs in the range of 100g = 1000 ... 5000€
19:41:12 <planetmaker> but that's no use for printing and is just plain sand chemically speaking ;-)
19:41:31 <andythenorth> my friend was a phd student
19:41:44 <andythenorth> she was making gears by depositing individual crystals
19:41:49 <andythenorth> nudged into place with lasers
19:42:09 * andythenorth doesn't do that :P
19:48:48 * andythenorth ponders doing some game
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19:57:49 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: so.. whom should we recruit as sprite artist? Or is in this channel anyone person daring to take on the trains of central Europe?
19:59:27 <michi_cc> Not me :) At least definitely not for anything more than pushing two or three pixels around
19:59:45 <planetmaker> Though we could well start without sprites
20:00:01 <planetmaker> like... green and blue boxes driving around
20:00:14 <planetmaker> with a puff of smoke or an electric spark emitted from the first one...
20:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> good test for the templates ;)
20:02:45 <michi_cc> Maybe we should patch OpenTTD first :) I was wondering how hard it would be to implement non-bending articulated vehicles natively. If we could then use three sprites for each wagon, most glitches should be gone.
20:03:12 <Terkhen> use coloured boxes, the first person that gets annoyed by the boxes is promoted to sprite artist
20:03:55 <Terkhen> and IIRC there was an extensive post about the issues at the long road vehicles thread
20:04:40 <planetmaker> oh, eddi has an extensive post on the issues with this very thing about trains ;-)
20:06:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you could try and recruit DanMacK
20:06:21 <andythenorth> I am worried he has lost his mojo :(
20:06:38 <andythenorth> but probably he is over-committed, and a new project is the last thing he needs :(
20:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> currently unsolved is the part of Extra-Callback-Info being set when called from a GUI (vehicle details, vehicle list)
20:07:17 <andythenorth> neko can actually draw it turns out
20:07:58 <Terkhen> there is someone who can draw missing from your volunteer list, andythenorth :P
20:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure i'd be able to survive that many intensive conversations with neko...
20:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> why does "Personenwagen der Güterwagenbauart" sound so evil...
20:08:42 <andythenorth> now I have to remember to switch FIRS branch :P
20:09:53 <andythenorth> how do I ensure I'm at the head of the branch?
20:09:56 <planetmaker> he... sometimes ignorance could be a blessing, I guess
20:10:05 <planetmaker> hg up, andythenorth
20:10:16 <planetmaker> it doesn't update accross branches
20:10:21 <andythenorth> I did hg up 'branch(default)'
20:10:42 <andythenorth> hg branch tells me 'default'
20:10:48 <andythenorth> but hg tip tells me 0.6
20:11:00 <planetmaker> that's ok. As the last commit was there
20:11:03 <planetmaker> tip = last commit
20:11:13 <andythenorth> that's as should be then
20:11:29 <andythenorth> yep that's all fine then
20:12:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "hg heads" may be interesting
20:14:30 <andythenorth> I need a new photostrop
20:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm fairly sure now that weight is usually given without the extra tender
20:27:13 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
20:28:02 <andythenorth> change the tender weight according to distance travelled :P
20:28:24 <andythenorth> cb36 probably can't do that :P
20:29:04 <planetmaker> interesting, Eddi|zuHause
20:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and make speed = 1/3 when it's empty? :p
20:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i think trains need a "turn around" time
20:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so engines which can go same speed backwards have lower time
20:31:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: speed = 1/6 when it's empty :P
20:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and push/pull service is fastest
20:32:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: in the time chart: are that still real times or already some game-play adjusted?
20:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: those are still real
20:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: gameplay would probably best if an engine is at least available until the next of the same category
20:34:13 <planetmaker> I just wondered :-)
20:35:04 <michi_cc> I'd say some gaps are quite okay, to provide a bit of a challenge that you don't always have the perfect engine. Obviously, the gaps can't be too big.
20:37:00 <planetmaker> some yes, we have 6 or 7 categories. But sometimes the gaps are at the same time
20:39:36 <michi_cc> Sure, just like an engine that can only be bought 2-3 years is useless.
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21:11:39 <Yexo> andythenorth: the problem for a bare station tile is indeed climate support
21:11:54 <andythenorth> it can't be done? Or it's tmwftlb?
21:12:02 <Yexo> the "ground tile" for stations has to be some default tile, otherwise it doesn't work with railtypes
21:12:15 <Yexo> that means that if you want snow/desert etc. you have to create an overlay with just snow/desert
21:12:32 <Yexo> but having the overlay in the newgrf means you can't properly support both the TTD baseset and OpenGFX
21:12:37 <Yexo> you'll have to chose either one
21:12:45 <andythenorth> we can't switch the ground tile depending on terrain? (like industries)
21:13:03 <Yexo> the ground tile can't be switched, there is a static value that has to be used or railtypes don't work
21:13:17 <andythenorth> no branching to alternative layout?
21:13:33 <andythenorth> that's how FIRS does it for forests etc
21:13:37 <Yexo> sure, but that alternative layout has to have the same groundtile
21:13:52 <andythenorth> I see the issue in that case
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21:14:21 <andythenorth> I assume there are 'hysterical raisins' for stations being so different to industries :P
21:14:48 <Yexo> yes, there are indeed: different coders for ttdpatch who designed the specs individually
21:15:09 <andythenorth> advanced sprite layouts are available for stations?
21:15:46 <Yexo> but nforenum doesn't support advanced sprite layouts in action0, ie for stations
21:15:56 <Yexo> frosch123 has an incomplete patch for that
21:16:05 <andythenorth> I'll tell him it can't be done ;)
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22:10:04 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: do you have gimp installed and in the path?
22:10:28 <planetmaker> I wonder whether I could make it a build dependency ;-)
22:11:02 <planetmaker> so in principle yes ;-)
22:15:35 <planetmaker> that'd allow us to operate directly on xcf or psd files, no need for png then
22:23:55 <Night> Hi there, this.. is going to seem newbie-ish
22:24:25 <Night> but i was wondering, is it possible to develop an AI in C/C++?
22:24:56 <planetmaker> that'll not be supported
22:24:57 <Yexo> depending on your definition of "possible". However it's not supported
22:25:21 <Yexo> of course if you hack at the code enough it's possible, but you will be on your own
22:26:59 <Night> any tips on getting started?
22:27:28 <planetmaker> And have a look at existing AIs
22:27:36 <planetmaker> many are GPL v2-licensed
22:28:18 <Yexo> and I would recommend this IRC channel if you have any questions, but you obviously already found it :)
22:29:33 <Night> sorry if i appear clueless, i was challanged to write an AI by a friend, figured id ask around here before i got started
22:30:27 <Yexo> do you have any prior programming experience?
22:30:51 <Night> professionally im a C++ developer
22:31:09 <Yexo> great. Writing a good AI is very hard, so that helps a lot
22:31:31 <Yexo> I'd advise to start with (very boring) aircraft, just to get a feel for the API / how things work
22:31:48 <Yexo> after that try road vehicles, and if you feel really adventures try a train AI
22:32:49 <Night> whats squirrel like? at a glance it looked like C...
22:33:44 <Night> (sorry i use C for the C derived languages, its a bad habit im trying to get rid of)
22:34:04 <Night> C with classes C++ java etc.. habit i picked up from my professor.
22:34:26 <Yexo> it might be easier to pick up the syntax by reading other AIs though
22:35:29 <Night> alright ill look at the tutorial AI
22:35:50 <Night> thanks for the pointers
22:44:25 <JVassie> is there any way to change the default size of the station gui?
22:44:36 <JVassie> so that it doesnt display the list of tiles in the class in a single column?
22:45:00 <Yexo> you should be able to change that in the code
22:45:21 <JVassie> how hard is it to add it as an advanced option in the menu?
22:45:43 <planetmaker> that'd be wrong IMHO. But it could remember the size
22:46:05 <Yexo> not sure, but not trivial since the default size is a hardcoded constant
22:46:17 <Yexo> and I agree with planetmaker
22:46:44 <JVassie> tis a pet peeve of mine
22:47:59 <Yexo> if it would remember the size it'd be a problem only once per time you start openttd
22:48:32 <JVassie> that'd be fine tbh :p
22:48:54 <JVassie> openttd rarely gets closed anyway
22:49:04 <JVassie> but even still, would greatly reduce the problem :)
22:49:18 <JVassie> cause often i need to demolish a tile, landscape here or there
22:49:33 <JVassie> go back to build (more) station tiles, and the window is shrunk again :p
22:50:17 <planetmaker> Yexo: this remembering could even perpetuate through the cfg to a restart. But it (just) has no place in the GUI of the adv. settings
22:53:27 <planetmaker> but I have a place in my bed now ;-)
22:54:50 <Sacro> I want to blast out Holst
23:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... BR 130 for 140km/h (only few prototypes) and BR 132 for 120 km/h? or only one of them?
23:23:17 <fjb> I wouldn't include prototypes in the base set.
23:25:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's basically the only way to introduce anything faster than 120km/h
23:26:37 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: we alread included the BR 23, of which only 2 were built due to the war
23:28:23 <fjb> That BR 23 was totally different from the post war BR 23
23:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a post-war DB 23 and post-war DR 23
23:34:44 <fjb> The prototypes were different from both.
23:36:51 <JVassie> Eddi|zuHause: the timeline your working on is german stuff only right?
23:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: yes, currently we want to finish one series, but you can make your own timeline
23:37:50 <JVassie> maybe rename the sheet to clarify?
23:38:01 <JVassie> its not just epoch 1-2 these days
23:38:10 <JVassie> perhaps German Series Timeline ?
23:38:25 <JVassie> Core German Series Timeline*
23:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: there were prototypes of 130 without heating, and then there were the first of the 132 with heating, which got renumbered to 130
23:41:03 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: and then there were some that were rebuilt to 140km/h after reunification
23:42:30 <JVassie> well we need express more than universal for 1970
23:43:37 <JVassie> also Eddi|zuHause, the letters you are appending mean what please?
23:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> the axle scheme?
23:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause> mean "Ost" (east), "Reko" (reconstruction) and "Neubau" (new)
23:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid possible conflicts with western engines of same number
23:47:00 <JVassie> wonder if there will be m/any SBB/BLS stuff not in core :p
23:51:12 <JVassie> I think the ET30 should definitely be in the core
continue to next day ⏵
