IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-16
00:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> on top of many people's whishlist :p
00:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause> not possible, though, and not likely in the near/medium future either
00:03:15 <JVassie> ohreally?
00:03:28 <JVassie> :p
00:03:34 <JVassie> im considering it beign fake
00:03:36 <JVassie> *being
00:03:47 <JVassie> ie create foundations which look like a bridge
00:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the professional term is "mockup" :p
00:04:05 <JVassie> indeed so
00:04:10 <JVassie> like the image above :p
00:04:14 <JVassie> and also wooo \o/
00:04:19 <JVassie> random livery done in NML :)
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00:04:23 <JVassie> cha ching
00:04:48 <Eddi|zuHause> fake bridges cause many kinds of trouble...
00:05:03 <JVassie> how so?
00:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> people demanding real bridges :p
00:05:16 <JVassie> hahah
00:05:26 <JVassie> I cannot accept responsibility for that :p
00:05:52 <JVassie> hmm
00:05:59 <JVassie> tryign ti find an example of livery refit in NML
00:06:01 <JVassie> *to
00:07:02 <JVassie> its hard to do in straight nfo anyway, no?
00:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: the other kind of trouble is compatibility with base sets and road sets
00:07:18 <JVassie> indeed
00:07:21 <JVassie> thats a concern
00:07:33 <JVassie> it most likely wont be included
00:07:37 <JVassie> well
00:07:44 <JVassie> 8shrug*
00:07:55 <JVassie> gives me another idea for an advanced station gui
00:07:56 <JVassie> :p
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01:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i think "MSS" is a bad abbreviation, as it is too close to "MTSS"
01:26:58 <supermop> or MLSS
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05:02:00 <bodis> morning
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05:51:01 <Terkhen> good morning
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06:57:02 <planetmaker> moin
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09:25:06 <Core> Hello
09:25:15 <Core> Does anyone have any experiance in setting up a server?
09:25:37 <Yexo> Core: would it help you if I said yes?
09:25:42 <Yexo> why not ask your real question
09:27:29 <Core> I doesnt have a set question as such. Just advice and tips maybe. A group I am part of wants to create a few servers for us, I wondered if there were any recommended ways to implement them to include features such as city builder, cross-server chatting auto restart etc
09:27:58 <Yexo> not sure what "city builder" is, but I assume a custom patch from somewhere
09:28:18 <Yexo> in that case you'll have to compile openttd yourself, at least for the server and possible also for clients
09:28:44 <Core> okay
09:28:44 <Yexo> I don't know about any other server that has enabled cross-server chatting, there are several with a game-irc bridge
09:28:50 <Terkhen> auto restart IIRC is a setting in openttd.cfg
09:29:03 <Yexo> either that, or you could use ap+
09:29:04 <Core> game-irc bridge would be awesum
09:29:17 <Yexo> search for ap+ (autopilot+)
09:29:24 <Yexo> it's somewhere on the openttdcoop wiki
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09:30:26 <Core> ok thank you Yexo
09:30:40 <Core> any idea on the irc bridge?
09:30:46 <Yexo> also ap+
09:31:01 <Wolf01> hello
09:31:07 <Yexo> hello Wolf01
09:31:13 <Core> ok thank you
09:31:14 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
09:31:46 <Terkhen> IIRC joan also was able to do a irc bridge
09:31:57 <Yexo> oh, yes, I forgot about that :)
09:31:59 <Core> Joan?
09:32:15 <Yexo> another project, written to use the admin port of openttd instead of as a wrapper around the commandline
09:32:23 <Terkhen> <--- also in openttdcoop
09:32:42 <Core> the coop team contribute alot back into openttd eh :)
09:32:56 <Terkhen> <--- and the bot
09:33:11 <Yexo> in the case of joan it was not written by someone from openttdcoop, just hosted there
09:33:19 <Core> oh okay
09:33:24 <Yexo> in general yes, some members of openttdcoop contribute a lot
09:33:28 <Core> well thanks Yexo and Terkhen
09:33:33 <Terkhen> I have never looked too much into it so I can't help much with the details, I just knew that it existed :)
09:33:41 <Core> certainly given me some greater starting points
09:33:49 <Core> great*
09:34:10 <Yexo> for more details on joan you can ask dihedral, the developer of it
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09:41:44 <__ln__> US Air Force demonstration squadron Thunderbirds practicing in the sky above our office
09:42:47 <Terkhen> no work being done at all then?
09:43:17 <__ln__> not much. looks like they've landed now though
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09:46:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22593 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4647]: don't show cargo accepted/produced in the new station window when no tiles are selected (mouse hovering a window or toolbar)
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10:16:05 <JVassie> morning all
10:16:07 <JVassie> all morning
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10:26:17 <Terkhen> hi JVassie
10:40:12 <JVassie> how are we on this rainy and miserable day?
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10:44:11 <Terkhen> 35º is quite miserable, but I can't agree on the rainy part
10:45:15 <peter1138> way too hot :S
10:45:56 <Terkhen> it will be around 40 in a few weeks :P
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10:59:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r22594 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4644]: add active NewGRFs to the list of available ones when selecting the empty preset
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12:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate it when my crystal ball is right...
12:23:06 <Noldo> why?
12:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> means people are actually as stupid as i thought they were.
12:26:18 <planetmaker> hehe
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12:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... can newgrf warnings/errors be displayed in a red box upon start/load, not only in the newgrf window?
12:48:39 <Yexo> errors should be already
12:48:52 <Yexo> only the first fatal error though
12:48:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's only "there was an error"
12:54:13 <Terkhen> only fatal errors, yes
12:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, the newgrf window should pop up if there was a warning/error
12:57:01 <Terkhen> huh... there are no mail subsidies?
12:57:48 * Terkhen never noticed until now
12:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> afair, each cargo has a flag that can remove it from subsidies
12:59:06 <Terkhen> when creating a subsidy between two towns, OpenTTD never considers mail, only pax
12:59:29 <Terkhen>
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13:06:58 <Belugas> hello
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13:23:55 <planetmaker> Terkhen: but pas and mail generation are directly linked iirc
13:24:56 <planetmaker> hm... though houses can define an individual mail multiplicator
13:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> err... why would generation have anything to do with that?
13:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> subsidies are supposed to initiate transportation
13:27:23 <planetmaker> :-) if they're linked by a multiplicator you can look for pax and randomly decide to do mail instead. Thus no new "lookup routine" needed
13:28:24 <Terkhen> I'm making a new lookup routine anyways :)
13:29:11 <Terkhen> why houses don't have a way of defining different cargos for acceptance?
13:29:35 <Eddi|zuHause> they do
13:30:29 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. in one of MBs unreleased house sets, houses accept coal. and display smoke animation if the nearby station statistics say coal was delivered recently
13:31:16 <Eddi|zuHause> (but that statistics was unimplemented last time i checked)
13:31:30 <Terkhen> true, I was checking only properties 0D, 0E, 0F :)
13:31:37 <planetmaker> they do, Terkhen
13:32:22 <Terkhen> yes, while looking at how to do subsidies without relying in towneffects, it made sense to me to make some kind of cargo statistics for towns
13:32:39 <Terkhen> ideally, the same ones that would be used for additional town variables later
13:33:00 <planetmaker> sure :-)
13:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i'm not sure whether Ammler is just ignoring, or deliberately misunderstanding what i say... or whether i really think too complicated for other people to follow my thoughts
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13:53:50 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: it was additional not opposed :-)
13:54:58 <Ammler> hehe, sorry if you got that wrong
13:55:58 <Ammler> I am quite rarely on that forum, I just thought, it might help if I can confirm openttd is working as it should here
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14:29:36 <JVassie> sooo
14:29:42 <JVassie> what feature of NML to master next? :p
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14:31:07 <Hirundo> The latest addition is proper access of town registers
14:32:50 <JVassie> Im working on trains, not town :p
14:32:51 <JVassie> *towns
14:32:58 <JVassie> far too advanced for me yet xD
14:33:34 <Hirundo> Trains are AFAIK mostly feature complete, there won't be much further progress in that direction
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14:34:52 <JVassie> Hirundo: I just started using NML yesterday
14:34:56 <JVassie> :)
14:35:10 <JVassie> What im hoping for are stations to be doen in NML
14:35:15 <JVassie> so i can code the MSS
14:36:16 <Hirundo> Stations are very tricky, that's the reason they aren't done yet
14:37:17 <Hirundo> The station nfo spec is very powerful and allows you to do lots of things
14:37:49 <Hirundo> NML implementation of that has to cover (almost) all the features while still being usable
14:38:17 <Terkhen> and less confusing :P
14:39:19 * Hirundo ponders whether to look at stations or extended sprite layouts
14:40:07 <Yexo> extended sprite layouts mostly need implementation, that's relatively easy
14:40:14 <Yexo> stations would be very nice :)
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14:49:46 <JVassie> Yexo: did you see my suggestion regardign stations?
14:50:09 <Yexo> I did read something in the mbss
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14:50:49 <JVassie> its in openttd suggestiosn forum :)
14:51:12 <Yexo> ah, that one
14:51:21 <Yexo> not really possible
14:51:30 <Yexo> the spec is simply not designed for something like that
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14:52:15 <JVassie> :(
14:54:04 <planetmaker> Hirundo: stations would be awesome :-)
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14:57:20 <planetmaker> hm, I hope with NML becoming more and more feature-complete that the many (new and old) but often uncharted areas of newgrf become more populated by newgrfs
14:58:08 <planetmaker> with town persistant storage the only immediately missing thing is airports
14:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... my computer is somewhat warmer than usual
14:58:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but nothing complicated should be running
14:58:54 <planetmaker> adn of course bridges and... docks and RV stations and...
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14:59:26 <Terkhen> docks have specs? :P
14:59:51 <Yexo> no, but it should be easy to extend the airport specs for docks
14:59:57 <JVassie> oooh
14:59:58 <Yexo> that is, once the airport specs are finalized
15:00:00 <JVassie> that'd be cool
15:00:01 <Terkhen> that would be awesome :)
15:00:13 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I'm just dreaming ;-)
15:00:24 <planetmaker> or... planning for OpenTTD 2.0 :-P
15:00:56 <Terkhen> planetmaker: you jumped from features missing in NML directly to daydreaming :P
15:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause> can newgrfs trigger a news message?
15:01:01 <JVassie> how about for openttd 1.2 we get a rewrite of the station specs? :D
15:01:12 <Terkhen> why should they be rewritten?
15:01:13 <planetmaker> I'm good at that, right, Terkhen ? :-P
15:01:27 <JVassie> to allow the idea i suggested Terkhen :D
15:01:43 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: not directly. Just by the usual events
15:02:02 <frosch123> industries can
15:02:14 <frosch123> e.g. in the monthly callback
15:02:17 <planetmaker> arbitrary?
15:02:18 <Yexo> JVassie: it's not just the specs, those could be extended, the number of map bits used for that is more problematic
15:02:21 <frosch123> but those messages are usually disabled :p
15:02:23 <frosch123> planetmaker: yes
15:02:33 <planetmaker> interestink
15:02:33 <Terkhen> oh, I did not know that :)
15:02:47 <frosch123> just, who enables industry news?
15:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: hmm... thought of something more generic
15:02:51 <JVassie> map bits are needed for the station build gui?
15:02:52 <planetmaker> :-P
15:02:54 <Terkhen> nobody :P
15:03:49 <frosch123> would town control require creation of news?
15:03:50 <planetmaker> new feature: a random spam message from every industry every month
15:03:52 <planetmaker> will be fun ;-)
15:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant something descriptive without immediate gameplay effect, like "In A.D. 2101 - War was beginning"
15:04:04 <frosch123> e.g. monthly or something like that?
15:04:11 <planetmaker> frosch123: would make sense. Like "this town now requires food to further grow"
15:04:19 <JVassie> indeed
15:04:25 <JVassie> would be a bit harsh otherwise
15:04:26 <Yexo> JVassie: not for the build gui, but to store that information afterwards
15:04:28 <planetmaker> or "this town now additionally requires steel"
15:04:34 <Terkhen> frosch123: maybe
15:04:50 <JVassie> Yexo, you mean to actually place the tile on the map?
15:04:55 <Yexo> yes
15:05:05 <JVassie> WTB more map bits
15:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> something not directly linked to any particular town/industry/vehicle/company
15:05:36 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: then you could only check date
15:05:37 <Terkhen> yes, it makes sense to have news messages in towns too
15:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: date would probably be enough
15:06:09 <frosch123> sounds like NewScenario
15:06:37 <Hirundo> hmm... extended sprite layouts might have made stations a lot easier
15:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but not quite that involved... NewScenario could use complete interactive gui elements, i wasn't thinking that far
15:06:58 <Terkhen> IMO stuff like that should go with scenario data, not in newgrfs
15:07:33 <frosch123> yeah, scenarios sound more like something for squirrel
15:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the particular thought i had was a grf with freight wagons, and every few decades you get a news message "speed limit for freight trains is now X km/h", and all existing freight trains get updated speed limits (immediately, or after visiting depot, or somesuch)
15:09:24 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: but that "breaks" as soon as you use multiple train newgrfs
15:09:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: so what? that's the user's fault :p
15:09:41 <peter1138>
15:10:20 <Yexo> nice one
15:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "rm -rf /usr" sounds painful :p
15:12:18 <planetmaker> scenarios (load and play normally) or game control (load and pre-programmed events)?
15:12:29 <Terkhen> :O
15:12:35 <Terkhen> planetmaker: both
15:12:51 <Terkhen> "game control" could be bundled with scenarios using the new format
15:13:27 <planetmaker> outch, what a fix, peter1138 :-)
15:15:13 <planetmaker> yes... though I'd like actually game control being able to be separate from a specific map
15:15:27 <Terkhen> yes, I agree
15:15:35 <planetmaker> though there are definitely valid use cases to write one which fits a particular map (only)
15:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> certain parts of "game control", like an advanced subsidy system, may be independent from actual maps
15:16:16 <planetmaker> I still think that for game control the admin port could be extended or generalized... but maybe that's not the way... as difficult in SP
15:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. like a question window "do you accept this subsidy", and then getting a penalty if you didn't actually set up that route
15:17:36 <JVassie> evil :D
15:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but that completely was not the acutal question
15:18:14 <planetmaker> JVassie: that happens if you accept vehicles for testing but don't build them. You won't get new such offers for a few years
15:18:31 <JVassie> oooh ok
15:19:24 <planetmaker> which is not actually a penalty...
15:19:27 <planetmaker> but well :-)
15:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it is, if you play with breakdowns off
15:19:56 <planetmaker> why then?
15:20:35 <Eddi|zuHause> you get the engine a year later?
15:21:18 <planetmaker> you get it at the same time ohter players get it
15:21:30 <Terkhen> what else could be part of an advanced subsidy system?
15:21:40 <planetmaker> but depends really on 'penalty' vs. 'advantage'
15:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "lack of advantage" is a penalty
15:21:56 <planetmaker> testing IMHO is an advantage over all others. Not having it is not a penalty. But details
15:22:12 <planetmaker> Nah, penalty is below normal ;-)
15:22:32 <Eddi|zuHause> if you worked hard for an advantage, not getting that advantage is a penalty
15:22:54 <planetmaker> which you didn't in the testing vehicle case
15:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you did, you have the highest score
15:24:23 <planetmaker> happens without much effort :-P
15:24:43 <Eddi|zuHause> different problem :p
15:25:14 <planetmaker> <-- your crystal ball, Eddi|zuHause , it's still working
15:25:18 <frosch123> planetmaker: your movement of cb 148 results in more work :p
15:25:33 <planetmaker> frosch123: in what way?
15:26:10 <frosch123> it is one of the "animation" callbacks
15:26:14 <frosch123> which share return values
15:26:28 <frosch123> and especially the last sentence of the cb 148 description applies to multiple callbacks
15:26:41 <frosch123> though of course you can say, that is wrong in itself
15:27:17 <Terkhen> we should group callbacks in different pages :)
15:27:24 <frosch123> grfspecs are at least as tricky as nfo :p
15:29:08 <planetmaker> frosch123: I think we just change "above" to the actual CB numbers
15:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, split the whole page apart into individual groups, and make "Callbacks" a category
15:29:25 <planetmaker> I linked anyway every instance of a callback mentioned to the CB description today
15:29:32 <frosch123> but the sentence is not mentioned at the other callbacks
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15:29:56 <planetmaker> yes. It should probably
15:30:20 <planetmaker> animation control as sound control... how funky
15:30:27 <planetmaker> I never noticed until now
15:31:00 <planetmaker> hm... callbacks by feature (group)?
15:32:05 <Terkhen> IMO yes, and a different one for generic callbacks
15:32:37 <frosch123> "feature" as in "trains, stations, industries" is not useful
15:32:53 <frosch123> "feature" as in "animation" might work
15:33:31 <frosch123> or "construction checks/autoslope/custom foundations/
15:34:26 <frosch123> a table of contents for each feature might make sense though
15:35:25 <planetmaker> frosch123: IMHO feature like 'vehicles', 'stations', 'industries' is what I usually need
15:35:53 <frosch123> well, but a lot of callbacks are the same for various features
15:35:54 <planetmaker> and having them on one page makes sense.
15:36:01 <planetmaker> yes, indeed they are
15:36:04 <frosch123> you do not want to duplicate the descriptions
15:36:10 <planetmaker> definitely not
15:36:37 <frosch123> so, a table of content for each feature, which links to pages grouped by function
15:37:25 <frosch123> callbacks about animations would need some general shared explanation of animations as well
15:37:39 <frosch123> or the slope/foundation callbacks could get an explanation of slopes etc
15:38:23 <planetmaker> I'm not sure it needs splitting actually
15:38:43 <planetmaker> a separate list for each feature might still make sense, though
15:39:42 <Terkhen> callbacks shared between different features get their own page, callback pages for each feature have a link to the other pages if needed
15:40:42 <frosch123> planetmaker: yeah, i guess for the start it does not necessarily need splitting
15:40:58 <frosch123> only if we add some detailed description for a group of callbacks
15:41:21 <planetmaker> hm... we could transclude the callbacks into the feature pages for those callbacks shared
15:41:32 <planetmaker>
15:41:56 <frosch123> That only obfuscates that they are the same
15:41:57 <planetmaker> then each CB gets its own page. And feature pages just (trans/in)clude them
15:42:09 <frosch123> (simliar as to shared action 7 and varaction2 variables)
15:42:31 <frosch123> also you would still have exceptions for certain features
15:42:44 <planetmaker> hm?
15:43:20 <planetmaker> if I have page CallbacksVehicles: #include cb15, cb36, cb14, ...
15:43:21 <frosch123> when a callback applies to multiple features, but there are sentences like "for stations this is mirrored, for houses not"
15:43:43 <planetmaker> that's ok, I think
15:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i broke something...
15:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Program received signal SIGFPE, Arithmetic exception.
15:44:14 <planetmaker> Or you add the difference to the individual feature page
15:44:25 <frosch123> that would make it worse
15:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause> src/tgp.cpp:732 *h = (height_t)(((int)h_max_new) * (*h - h_water_level) / (h_max - h_water_level)) + I2H(1);
15:45:12 <frosch123> i consider "making obvious what is shared by features" very important
15:45:32 <frosch123> assume you already learned to code stations
15:45:49 <planetmaker> Ok. Then those shared CBs can get a leading line which states that it's shared?
15:45:54 <frosch123> now you want to do industries, do you really want to check whether there is some sentence more from what you know?
15:46:14 <frosch123> planetmaker: what's so bad with just linking?
15:46:20 <planetmaker> Like "This callback is shared between vehicles, ..."
15:46:25 <frosch123> very transparent
15:47:05 <planetmaker> frosch123: when I write a NewGRF, I like to have the applicable CBs and their way how they work on one page as now. Not click, click, click for each switch block.
15:47:22 <planetmaker> Like a quick overview over this one feature
15:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... this might be an actual bug in tgp.cpp: if the map happens to turn out completely flat, determining the water level fails
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15:51:39 <frosch123> [17:46] <planetmaker> Like "This callback is shared between vehicles, ..." <- could that be done in some automated way, or only via manual template insertion?
15:52:23 <planetmaker> frosch123: I'd add that as the first sentence to that CB's description
15:52:52 <planetmaker> which I'd do manually... the applicable features are given by the numbers, aren't they?
15:53:31 <planetmaker> Maybe it could be done somewhat automatically... the CB description gives all numbers.
15:54:02 <frosch123> some callbacks share the number for different features
15:54:08 <frosch123> e.g. the ai callback
15:54:56 <frosch123> and the sound callback 33
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15:57:49 <planetmaker> right... interesting, I did not know that :-)
15:57:59 <planetmaker> But... I'd add that there, too. And currently that's not clear either
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16:46:36 <Terkhen> after digging in the subsidy code it makes sense to me to have stats of cargo acceptance inside a town for deciding subsidies
16:46:46 <Terkhen> what exactly is "inside a town" is up to debate :)
16:46:53 <Terkhen> maybe only some town zones
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16:48:45 <planetmaker> <-- frosch123 with inclusion it could look like that.
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17:03:53 <frosch123> so, every callback gets its own page, which are then put together on different pages
17:04:43 <frosch123> hmm, maybe callbacks should generally have some summary information at the top
17:05:04 <frosch123> like, features it applies to, format of var 10, 18 and result
17:05:37 <Terkhen> yes, a common format would be nice
17:06:08 <frosch123> and something like "called from purchase list" resp. "called for actual vehicle"
17:07:09 <Terkhen> yes :)
17:07:10 <planetmaker> hm, indeed, that'd be helpful
17:07:24 <planetmaker> and yes, I'd then give each CB its own page
17:07:39 <planetmaker> s/'d/'ll/ :-P
17:08:42 <planetmaker> Hm... Features as list and ... the latter as list as well? or rather both as table?
17:08:49 <Terkhen> can that be scripted somehow? there are a lot of callbacks
17:08:54 <planetmaker> with 'x' in the appropriate place? Hm... that might be nice
17:09:27 <planetmaker> how does our version template in the OpenTTD wiki work...
17:09:29 * planetmaker looks
17:09:44 <planetmaker> Terkhen: scripting that might be more lengthy than just doing it
17:09:50 <Terkhen> ok :P
17:10:16 <frosch123> planetmaker: for var10, var18 i only mean a short format, like "syxx", where the rest is described later
17:11:21 <planetmaker> sorry, in which respect, frosch123 ?
17:12:05 <frosch123> you were talking about the layout for the summary
17:12:52 <planetmaker> ah. What I linked is basically a 1:1 copy of how the CBs are described now. Just included from their separate page.
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17:21:56 <frosch123> planetmaker: <- i mean something like that
17:22:17 <frosch123> though maybe with different layout (from template), and better keywords in first column
17:22:58 <planetmaker> he... looks nice, though. I'd try to make the feature thing a tick list (table in table)
17:23:26 <frosch123> for callback with different ids for different vehicles, the first row would look like "houses (1B), industy tiles (25), .."
17:24:43 <frosch123> planetmaker: can you make an example of that
17:24:51 <frosch123> i don't think i know what you mean :)
17:24:55 <planetmaker> trying to :-)
17:25:12 <planetmaker> I first need to figure out the syntax ;-)
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17:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so "run in dosbox" counts as "port" these days?
17:31:53 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I'd say "runs in dosbox" might count as "port"
17:32:09 <Rubidium> but luckily I've got no clue what you're talking about
17:32:36 <Eddi|zuHause>
17:33:21 <planetmaker> frosch123: check that page now
17:33:40 <Terkhen> I don't know how is he expecting to run dosbox, IIRC they removed linux support from ps3
17:34:21 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds like loads of stupidity to me
17:34:46 <Rubidium> as *if* dosbox works, then OpenTTD can be compiled natively as well
17:35:08 <frosch123> planetmaker: that will become very long, esp since there are callbacks which only work for some vehicle types
17:35:10 <Terkhen> heh :P
17:35:22 <frosch123> a column for every potential feature is not viable
17:35:32 <planetmaker> then a row
17:35:50 <frosch123> that is also very long
17:35:57 <frosch123> lots of rows with only -
17:36:14 <frosch123> a table is only of use if most cells are filled
17:36:38 <planetmaker> well, ok, then your suggestion it is
17:37:03 <frosch123> any better idea for the texts in the first column?
17:37:28 <frosch123> aslo, should it be this kind of greyish table with lines? or rathe some different style?
17:37:40 <frosch123> or, just create a template and bother later?
17:40:24 <planetmaker> use of a template seems best to me
17:40:30 <planetmaker> or at least a separate table class
17:41:41 <frosch123> so, how to procede? first split cbs to individual pages, or first add those tables?
17:42:40 <frosch123> (i would still keep the page of all callbacks for now, though with those includes)
17:43:47 <Belugas> lovely weather :) outside for lunch, a co-worker and i, both with our cameras. She's taking pictures of buildings, i shoot girls :) lovely, really!
17:44:40 <planetmaker> frosch123: I think adding those tables only makes sense after a split
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17:44:56 <planetmaker> and yes, we keep the all-CB page till the split is 100% done, of course
17:45:37 <frosch123> i mean also keep that page afterwards, i.e. a page to include all callbacks
17:46:16 <planetmaker> When all is done, I don't think it's needed. The category page suffices then as it also lists all
17:46:27 <planetmaker> I started with [[Category:Callbacks]]
17:47:03 <planetmaker> That summary page could then still contain the text which now is not individual to the single CBs
17:47:21 <planetmaker> thus just moving that to the special category page
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17:47:43 <frosch123> then you could do feature-specific callbacks with categories as well :p
17:48:06 <planetmaker> Yes, one could
17:48:08 <frosch123> i think there is also some use for having all callbacks on one page
17:48:26 <planetmaker> you mean inlined?
17:48:28 <planetmaker> like now?
17:48:43 <planetmaker> didn't you before suggest a link-list only?
17:49:05 <frosch123> yes, successively split all callbacks from the page to individual pages, and put an inline on the page it was before
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17:52:18 <planetmaker> ok
17:54:18 <planetmaker> so... template or table?
17:57:54 <frosch123> i am not sure whether the rows would be the same for everyone
17:58:02 <frosch123> or whether some might need an additional row
17:58:17 <frosch123> yeah, for example for return values in 100+ registers
17:58:37 <frosch123> can templates have optional arguments?
17:58:46 <planetmaker> they can have default values
17:58:50 <Yexo> also optional ones
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18:00:05 <frosch123> or maybe a template for the first columns of that table, while also allowing custom rows?
18:00:39 <frosch123> some cb might have "var 100 this", "var 100 that". some other callback might have "var 100-105: text stack"
18:00:47 <andythenorth> hola
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18:01:20 <frosch123> hola compañero
18:01:30 <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
18:01:52 * andythenorth baby -> bath
18:02:00 <frosch123> again?
18:02:22 <frosch123> or is "bath" only a term for general service?
18:02:57 <Yexo> the previous time andy said that was yesterday, right?
18:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> my log says last sunday
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18:04:34 <planetmaker> possibly we should try it with a template, frosch123
18:04:48 <planetmaker> we'll get the return values *somehow* into it ;-)
18:05:05 <frosch123> we should pick some example callbacks to try first :)
18:05:50 <frosch123> can the splitting be done by some bot?
18:06:17 <planetmaker> in principle yes.
18:06:23 <frosch123> which takes a list of a link to the current section and a title for the new page?
18:06:42 <Yexo> split by section, generate page title from section title?
18:06:49 <planetmaker> what I'd do is run it on the current callback page and ...^
18:07:15 <planetmaker> We should possibly sanetize section names then
18:07:18 <frosch123> should the title contain the callback id, or rather not?
18:07:22 <planetmaker> having callback in it doesn't make sense
18:07:32 <frosch123> (e.g. to not have to change it when adding a feature)
18:07:44 <planetmaker> the callback ids... I'd leave out for that reason
18:07:54 <frosch123> fine for me
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18:29:35 <Nite_Owl> No compiled nightlies since the 6th ?? Compile farm problems ??
18:29:54 <Alberth> we build up the tension
18:30:39 <Alberth> seriously, work was being done on the CF, so that would be a reason. I don't know its state atm.
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18:31:32 <Rubidium> Nite_Owl: there's a nightly of the 11th, 9th, 8th and 7th as well
18:32:02 <Yexo> just not distributed?
18:32:43 <Rubidium> but we migrated to another hoster and due to some technical reasons the old CF didn't quite survive
18:33:11 <Nite_Owl> Oops - I transposed a number - no nightlies since the 11th...
18:33:17 <Rubidium> (it works somewhat, but in about 30% of the binary build runs it hangs, which means it'll reliably hang each build and thus it was stopped
18:34:04 <planetmaker> frosch123: if you have a good template for me to include right from the start, I could add that during page creation right away ;-)
18:34:05 <Rubidium> and setting one up from scratch takes a lot of time
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18:34:39 <frosch123> planetmaker: i would need filling in manually anyway
18:34:42 <frosch123> *it
18:34:43 <Nite_Owl> Not a problem short term. I was more curious then anything else.
18:35:01 <frosch123> but i will try some template stuff later on
18:38:51 <Nite_Owl> Thank you for the confirmation. I will wait patiently for a return to normal operations.
18:39:04 <Terkhen> what stats regarding cargo acceptance should be stored in the town? subsidies only need "at least a unit was accepted last month", but it would make sense to store everything town control will need at once
18:40:04 <frosch123> why would subsidies check for an amount being accepted?
18:40:20 <Terkhen> to know if the town can be a destination for certain cargos
18:40:30 <frosch123> shouldn't they check the acceptance in a certain area around the town sign?
18:40:44 <Terkhen> although... I might be mixing stuff here
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18:41:01 <Terkhen> towns should not be marked as destinations if a industry accepts the cargo, so it might be better to not mix both things
18:41:06 * andythenorth bath.done
18:41:14 <frosch123> there is a difference whether the town actually got delivered stuff, or whether it would only accept it
18:41:22 <Terkhen> s/destinations/possible destinations/
18:41:23 <andythenorth> does bath have a callback on completion, or does it just end?
18:41:28 <andythenorth> anyway
18:41:35 <andythenorth> did towns get solved yet? :P
18:41:41 <Terkhen> hmm... true, sorry, I was mixing stuff :P
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18:42:30 <Terkhen> andythenorth: prerrequisite, fix subsidies
18:42:36 <andythenorth> oh those things
18:42:44 <andythenorth> can of worms there
18:42:45 <Terkhen> I remember some FIRS problem regarding subsidies, right?
18:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> bath() terminates if either the water is empty or too cold
18:43:06 <andythenorth> it should call another function in both cases
18:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> a remote procedure call: "MAAAAAMAAAAAA"
18:43:51 <Terkhen> what subsidies would need is a "is this cargo accepted by any house in the town" stat
18:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: like AIList?
18:44:46 <Terkhen> it is probably not worth the effort to update said variable when houses are built/demolished, as for demolished it would need to loop through all houses anyways
18:44:59 <Terkhen> so... better to not use a variable and loop through all houses monthly instead
18:45:41 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, I don't know how that relates to subsidies
18:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: how AIs evaluate tiles whether they accept a certain cargo if they place a station here
18:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so you pick a tilearea that covers the town, and then run the valuator for your cargo
18:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if the resulting tile list is empty, you don't have an appropriate area that accepts 8/8 of the cargo
18:47:46 <frosch123> Terkhen: afaik there is some min distance to the town center for a subsidy being rewarded
18:48:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: afaik that is solved
18:48:02 <frosch123> so, i guess it should scan the houses only in that area
18:48:04 <andythenorth> how much scope is there here?
18:48:20 <andythenorth> subsidies can only be patched a bit? or subisdies can be rethought entirely
18:48:57 <Terkhen> hmm... the fastest solution would probably be loop through all houses and ignore houses in certain town zones
18:49:32 <andythenorth> I may be out the loop here, and I haven't read code....
18:49:33 <andythenorth> but...
18:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: no single house will accept goods, so you need at least 3 such houses to offer a goods subsidy
18:49:42 <frosch123> what about stupid things like the ttrs gas station accepting 6/8?
18:49:53 <andythenorth> do we know how towns manage their growth cargos yet?
18:50:01 <frosch123> there could be gas stations in the town, but nowhere enough for acceptance
18:50:10 <frosch123> the same might happen for goods
18:50:12 <Terkhen> meh, true, checking houses is not an option
18:50:18 <andythenorth> it would seem
18:50:37 <Terkhen> but checking tileareas for all towns monthly seems... costly
18:50:41 <andythenorth> the issue of 'acceptance for subsidy' and 'are the cargos for growth accepted in this town' seem to be same to me
18:50:54 <frosch123> so, maybe pick some random tile near the center, and then check if a roadstop at that point would accept the cargo?
18:50:54 <andythenorth> the key issue is that we can't rely on houses for acceptance
18:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: pick a town first and then only run the evaluation for that town
18:51:34 <Terkhen> andythenorth: right now the only plan is to remove the "towneffect" effect on subsidies, and replace it by something more generic
18:52:02 <Terkhen> why can't we rely on houses for acceptance?
18:52:10 <Terkhen> and yes, choosing a town first makes a lot of sense :P
18:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: water tower is not a house
18:52:20 <andythenorth> bank is not a house
18:52:27 <Terkhen> I know :)
18:52:30 <andythenorth> even before we talk about ECS, PBI, FIRS, TAI, OpenGFX+
18:52:52 <andythenorth> why can't house/industry tiles update a cache on the town?
18:52:55 <andythenorth> of accepted cargos
18:53:05 <Terkhen> why should water subsidies have a destination of "town"?
18:53:19 <michi_cc> frosch123: Maybe a tiny bit overkill :) for subsidies, but
18:53:20 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: water subsidies also go to industries nowadays
18:53:59 <andythenorth> if industries are to be dealt with (they should be), what about cbs 2B and 3D?
18:54:22 <Terkhen> michi_cc: thanks, I'll check it :)
18:54:56 <frosch123> looks like it could be used, so if it is also of use for other stuff :)
18:55:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm particularly worried about cargos that get accepted by both houses and industries
18:55:50 <George> If it is ok for houses to accept food and goods as cargoes, which affects town growth, why shouldn't water, petrol act the same?
18:56:08 <George> and the next step is making bank houses ;)
18:56:29 <Terkhen> George: subsidies are being reworked as part of a plan of creating town control
18:56:50 <George> Terkhen: who should accept goods and food?
18:57:17 <michi_cc> Terkhen: That patch is only collecting houses acceptance though, as YACD handles industries separately, but including industries wouldn't be hard.
18:57:47 <andythenorth> the patch can account for cbs 2B and 3D?
18:57:57 * Terkhen can't answer so much questions at once :P
18:58:26 <Terkhen> michi_cc: I'll check the code thoroughly later, but it looks good :)
18:58:37 <planetmaker> frosch123: pages created
18:59:10 <Terkhen> George: in what sense? both industries and houses can accept them
18:59:24 <Terkhen> but I have no idea about which one should accept it
18:59:29 <Terkhen> depends on the newgrf developer I guess
18:59:38 <planetmaker>
18:59:46 <Terkhen> andythenorth: account in which regard? if a industry stops accepting something the subsidy dies?
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19:00:15 <George> I'm leading to guideline to make banks, petrol stations, water towers to be houses :)
19:00:52 <Terkhen> regarding subsidies, the new scheme should be able to detect those houses and create subsidies with "town" as destination accordingly
19:01:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: is there also an automatic way to replace the stuff on the old page?
19:01:24 <George> According to subsidies, I think cargoes like food, goods, water should be to towns, not industries
19:01:25 <frosch123> i.e. to kill the current duplication
19:01:54 <planetmaker> I guess with a bit offline c&p yes
19:02:17 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I was looking ahead to growth cargos - if a town needs cargo A, but that isn't accepted...
19:02:32 <andythenorth> meh, this is thorny
19:02:54 <Terkhen> George: the plan is to rework subsidies so they don't depend on the cargo towneffect anymore; that way you can have subsidies with "town" as destination using cargos that are not passengers, mail, food, goods or valuables
19:03:13 <Terkhen> but that also means that you can have subsidies with "industry" as destination for passengers, mail, food, goods and valuables
19:03:38 <George> Terkhen: Sounds ok
19:04:20 <Terkhen> ok :)
19:04:45 <Terkhen> andythenorth: towns could get a "cargo is accepted" variable
19:05:17 <Terkhen> I don't know if house/industry newgrfs could be able to use that information to prioritize giving those towns acceptance, though
19:05:49 <andythenorth> hmm
19:05:59 <andythenorth> possibly cb28 would be able to use it by accessing parent town of the tile
19:06:02 <andythenorth> which might be interesting
19:06:21 <andythenorth> but if industry + town grfs are properly decoupled, I don't know if it's actually useful irl
19:06:38 <Terkhen> time for dinner, bbl :)
19:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> dinner for one
19:12:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anyone knows useful virtual machines on windows?
19:12:47 <planetmaker> done, frosch123
19:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> $colleague has a computer that he wants to mirror as a virtual machine for backup/redundancy purposes
19:12:55 <Sacro>
19:12:56 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: VMWare?
19:12:58 <Sacro> as bugs go...
19:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: ooooold
19:13:11 * frosch123 saw once a guy in a train, botting vista, then starting a xp vm and then starting eclipse in there
19:13:19 <frosch123> planetmaker: \o/
19:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how free is that nowadays?
19:14:04 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: no idea... I didn't boot a windows machine in months
19:14:06 <frosch123> no longer warnings like "this page is 70kB and might be screwed up by some 16bit browsers"
19:14:13 <planetmaker> :-P
19:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> what the hell is a 16bit browser? :p
19:15:09 <frosch123> one that cannot handle editareas with more than 32kB content
19:15:20 <planetmaker> he
19:15:52 <frosch123> i would guess on stuff based on win 3.11 notepad
19:16:18 <planetmaker> sounds pretty pre-historic, though
19:16:35 <frosch123> planetmaker: all links are broken?
19:17:22 * orudge gives Eddi|zuHause a copy of Internet Explorer 5.0 for Windows 3.1
19:17:46 <frosch123> hmm, no, the bot added some links were none were before
19:17:56 <planetmaker> which all linksß
19:18:11 <planetmaker> ?
19:18:23 <frosch123> take a look at the table of the old callback page
19:18:32 <frosch123> some entries are now links, some are not
19:18:40 <orudge> Sacro: that is quite impressive
19:18:53 <planetmaker> hm, to the individual ones. Seems like. yes
19:19:18 <frosch123> well, there were no links before
19:19:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 16 bit browsers were much fun for web designers :P
19:19:36 <frosch123> just a surprise :)
19:19:36 <andythenorth> oh things have changed
19:19:43 <andythenorth> I have been doing this too long clearly :P
19:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> obviously :p
19:19:53 <planetmaker> hm... some don't work exactly like intended anymore
19:20:04 <planetmaker> but all at least end up in the callback overview page
19:20:11 <planetmaker> thus nothing really broken
19:20:17 <frosch123> [21:17] * orudge gives Eddi|zuHause a copy of Internet Explorer 5.0 for Windows 3.1 <- there was an internet explorer for win 3.1 ?
19:20:21 <orudge> Yes
19:20:27 <planetmaker> yup
19:20:28 <orudge> as I say, up to IE5
19:20:47 <orudge> also, you could get a (limited) version of Outlook 97 for Win 3.1
19:20:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it was not bundled back then
19:20:50 <planetmaker> the funniest IE was still the one which ran un SGI ;-)
19:20:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and i didn't have internet before 2001
19:20:59 <orudge> planetmaker: yep, effectively used a Wine-type technology
19:21:01 <orudge> although not Wine itself
19:21:22 <frosch123> i had win32s for 3.11
19:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, that one i remember
19:21:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it came with freecell
19:21:49 <frosch123> it could run freecell or so :p
19:22:46 <orudge> you could run quite a few applications with it if you were careful
19:22:50 * orudge had much fun with Win32s, back in the day
19:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't really perfect
19:27:25 * andythenorth halloumi
19:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't like cheese
19:29:03 <Alberth> hidehi
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19:31:20 * andythenorth likes commits
19:31:30 <andythenorth> and cheese
19:38:20 *** core has joined #openttd
19:38:29 <core> hello
19:38:33 <Terkhen> michi_cc: are AddAcceptedCargo_Town and AddProducedCargo_Town defined elsewhere?
19:38:35 <Terkhen> hi core
19:38:52 <core> i need help with autopilot
19:39:01 <core> :)
19:39:09 <Terkhen> oh, they are existing functions :)
19:39:20 <core> i cannot get it working
19:39:54 <Terkhen> michi_cc: this code is perfect for subsidies too :)
19:40:04 <core> saying "cannot find package expect" even though I have installed it
19:43:10 <core> anyone? :)
19:43:32 <Terkhen> core: sorry but I have never set up ap+
19:43:52 <Terkhen> you willl have to wait until someone who knows reads this
19:43:52 <michi_cc> Terkhen: Just note that at least the YACD code is storing the acceptance per 4x4 tiles square, which might or might not be the best size for subsidies. Additionally, acceptance for each square is actually the combined acceptance of the current square and all surrounding squares, i.e. a 12x12 tile area (which I chose because even the smallest bus stop always covers at least some part of all 9 squares.)
19:44:20 <Terkhen> I was wondering about the 4x4 size, yes
19:44:46 <core> ok
19:44:49 <core> thanks anyway :)
19:44:50 <Terkhen> ideally, it should store if a station with the smallest acceptance possible could accept the cargo in some point of that town
19:45:22 <Alberth> core: random suggestion, can you run expect from the command line?
19:45:38 <core> hmm
19:45:46 <core> yes
19:45:47 <core> 1.1
19:46:12 <Alberth> so the install seems to work
19:47:07 <core> What was the IP again? I can't see it from OpenTTD when I am typing it.
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19:47:12 <core> ops sorry wrong chat
19:47:51 <Terkhen> the ideal thing would be checking 7x7 areas, and storing the acceptance for each tile
19:48:02 <Terkhen> but maybe that's too much information and it can work well with less
19:48:54 <core> it says when running autopilot.tcl: can't find package Expect | while executing | "package require Expect" | (file ./autopilot.tcl" line 45)
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19:49:34 <michi_cc> Terkhen: My reasoning was that with a too small search area some towns might accept a cargo at no point, even if a player could easily build a station with bigger catchment, which would be a serious growth hindrance for small towns with YACD.
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19:50:42 <Terkhen> that makes sense... even without distant join stations a player should be able to build two or three adjacent road stops without many problems
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19:52:40 <Terkhen> I think that your reasoning is adequate for subsidies too; if it is quite possible that the player can deliver cargo to the town, the game should be able to award subsidies for that cargo in that town too
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19:56:34 <michi_cc> Most important point: It works™ :) I.e. I tested some values for the least positive and negative mismatches and those were best.
19:59:08 <frosch123> planetmaker: <- these pages can be deleted, right?
19:59:16 <frosch123> the bot created slight different named ones
19:59:51 <planetmaker> for some pages: yes
19:59:54 <Terkhen> michi_cc: that's a good point too :)
20:00:20 <planetmaker> those indeed... though I wonder about the refitted capacity
20:00:22 <Terkhen> and also that (IIRC) no one has noticed an issue with this in YACD
20:00:25 <andythenorth> Terkhen: town control will provide control over subsidies?
20:00:35 <frosch123> you mean the tables?
20:00:58 <Terkhen> andythenorth: nothing is planned in that regard... how would it work?
20:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> thought: remove "<industry A> to <industry B>" subsidies completely, always do "from <any house/industry in town X> to <any house/industry in town Y>" subsidies
20:02:30 <planetmaker> I wonder though whether it was a good idea to add "Callback" to the page names
20:03:28 <andythenorth> Terkhen: like industry production cb
20:03:30 <andythenorth> monthly / random
20:03:34 <frosch123> i think it was a good idea
20:03:51 <frosch123> or did you mean using a namespace instead?
20:03:52 <andythenorth> game tries to award a subsidy, newgrf allows / disallows
20:04:08 <planetmaker> well, we also have categories for that
20:04:09 <frosch123> but a page named only "wagon length" would not have been good
20:04:11 <planetmaker> which I added
20:04:22 <planetmaker> Yes, that's why I did that. Ok :-)
20:04:32 <planetmaker> I just wasn't sure whether it's a good idea
20:04:45 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: hmm... do you mean "any industry of type X" or "any industry accepting/producing cargo Y"?
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20:06:22 <Terkhen> andythenorth: why monthly/random? it would make more sense to evaluate the callback for the industry/town once that the game decides on a possible source/destination
20:07:21 <frosch123> planetmaker: what are you doing?
20:07:48 <planetmaker> I deleted two pages which are duplicate as you mentioned
20:07:56 <planetmaker> I meant to do that, but was distracted
20:07:59 <frosch123> no, you picked a wrong one :p
20:08:04 <planetmaker> or rather the manually created ones
20:08:09 <andythenorth> Terkhen: agreed - but it might be interesting for town control to be able to specify that there should be subsidies for cargo x/y/z
20:08:09 <planetmaker> uhm.. I did?
20:08:20 <planetmaker> The automatic created ones are right ;-)
20:08:47 <frosch123> you deleted "station availability" instead of "select sprite layout"
20:09:29 <planetmaker> drat. yes :S
20:09:57 <Terkhen> andythenorth: but towns cannot always control both source and destination, in most cases they will only be able to control one of them
20:10:01 <andythenorth> drat is an underused word
20:10:11 <frosch123> yeah, there is a restore function
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20:10:27 <andythenorth> Terkhen: source / destination cargo? or source / destination point on map?
20:10:35 <Terkhen> points
20:10:57 <andythenorth> forget that, that's the business of YACD-alike, or player
20:11:07 <andythenorth> town should be able to specify subsidised cargo only
20:11:19 <andythenorth> mimicks supply / demand in interesting way
20:11:24 <andythenorth> hmm
20:11:31 * andythenorth ponders towns adjusting cargo payment rate
20:11:40 <andythenorth> instead of this silly subsidy business
20:11:47 * andythenorth never uses subsidies
20:11:48 <planetmaker> thanks frosch123. fixed
20:12:33 <Terkhen> andythenorth: but that's what are supposed to subsidies do, they adjust payment
20:12:44 <Terkhen> and yes, towns making "suggestions" for subsidies makes sense
20:12:58 <Terkhen> they could be checked first and if not, choose a random one
20:13:07 <andythenorth> subsidies are a partial implementation of spot prices for delivery
20:13:10 <Terkhen> s/choose a random one/use the current behavior/
20:13:15 <andythenorth> why not have actual spot prices?
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20:14:12 <Terkhen> if I have understood what spot prices correctly, those should probably be global instead of local
20:14:24 <andythenorth> probably
20:14:29 <andythenorth> local to towns isn't quite right
20:14:40 <andythenorth> it would need to be per tile, or per 4x4 tile block or such
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20:14:51 <andythenorth> but there might be no storage for that
20:14:57 <andythenorth> whereas towns have storage
20:15:13 <andythenorth> and it's not too implausible for a player that there is a price per town
20:16:05 <Terkhen> so you need to display in each town how all cargos are paid
20:16:23 <Terkhen> and rates can change unexpectedly and bring down a line that was working fine previously
20:16:34 <andythenorth> yep
20:16:42 <andythenorth> doesn't work for that kind of play
20:17:21 * andythenorth does some thinking
20:18:26 <Terkhen> the "towns suggest subsidies" idea is not incompatible with the current planned implementation for subsidies, it would only need changes on top of that
20:18:33 <Terkhen> so it does not need any special planning while fixing subsidies IMO
20:18:48 <andythenorth> fix subsidies by deleting them ;)
20:18:56 <Terkhen> also, I don't think that cargo cost belongs to towns
20:19:07 <andythenorth> no
20:19:11 * andythenorth agrees
20:19:18 <Terkhen> what's wrong with subsidies? I like them :P
20:19:27 <andythenorth> nothing is wrong with them
20:19:34 <andythenorth> it's just one more thing to think about
20:19:38 <andythenorth> when coding
20:19:41 <andythenorth> not for me though :)
20:19:52 * andythenorth does ponder
20:20:02 <andythenorth> maybe it's ok to break players' routes
20:20:18 <andythenorth> maybe we should all play smaller maps, with daylength patch, and more micro-management
20:20:25 <andythenorth> maybe
20:20:36 <SpComb> define anti-subsidies, penalties for transporting between specific industries!
20:20:41 <SpComb> keep the player on their toes
20:22:28 <andythenorth> that's the kind of thinking we need :)
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20:24:56 <Terkhen> you can already do that via newgrf
20:25:12 <Terkhen> if the player is delivering too much cargo from an industry, reduce production to 50
20:27:00 <andythenorth> can't penalise a specific route though :D
20:27:19 <andythenorth> maybe there should be more evil in the game
20:27:43 * andythenorth thinks that FIRS has gone too vanilla
20:27:56 <andythenorth> the stuff like closing industry types at certain dates has been removed
20:27:59 <Terkhen> what kind of "evil"?
20:28:18 <andythenorth> not sure
20:28:32 <andythenorth> pikka is better at evil than me
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20:29:32 <andythenorth> I might revisit idea of industry types closing though
20:29:42 <Terkhen> I didn't find PBI evil, it just has a game mechanic that some players might not like
20:30:05 <SpComb> can't transport all my coal to one steel mill :(
20:30:07 <Terkhen> I don't think that a industry that is being supplied regularly should close, that means that it is a "successful" industry
20:31:02 <andythenorth> true
20:33:56 <Terkhen> thinking on YACD; if the industry had a property or callback that determined how desirable it is as a destination, you could model demand decreases over time
20:34:27 <Terkhen> I'm not sure if it is a good idea to mix newgrf specs and YACD, though :)
20:34:56 <andythenorth> probably better to leave YACD do the YACD bit
20:35:15 <Terkhen> yes
20:35:25 <andythenorth> the only thing I thought of as newgrf-needed so far is something to specify 'delivery' sizes for cargos
20:38:01 <core> where is the option to disable news
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20:39:26 <Terkhen> core: check the second menu starting from the end -> Message settings
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20:43:42 <core> advanced options?
20:44:13 <planetmaker> <-- frosch123, a template
20:44:25 <planetmaker> I think it'll do for now. But feel free to extend.
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20:44:39 <Terkhen> core:
20:44:53 <Terkhen> looks quite outdated though
20:45:01 <planetmaker> <-- template @ frosch123
20:45:11 <planetmaker> and now... good night :-)
20:45:16 <Terkhen> good night planetmaker
20:45:18 <andythenorth> bye planetmaker
20:45:58 * andythenorth does snow
20:45:59 <andythenorth> it is pretty
20:46:03 <core> thank you Terkhen
20:46:42 * Terkhen codes boring stuff
20:46:55 <Terkhen> you are welcome core :)
20:47:28 *** perk11 has quit IRC
20:48:21 * andythenorth has coded much boring stuff in life
20:48:46 <frosch123> <- planetmaker: we work well together
20:49:07 * andythenorth wonders what recent FIRS snow looks like in opengfx
20:49:11 <andythenorth> probably not great :P
20:50:44 * andythenorth checks
20:50:49 <andythenorth> not great
20:51:00 <Terkhen> that's a nice format for callbacks :)
20:52:56 * andythenorth declines to draw all FIRS snowy-ground sprites twice :P
20:53:22 <andythenorth> it will just look wrong with opengfx :|
20:53:58 <planetmaker> that's just wrong then...
20:53:59 <Terkhen> andythenorth: do you have a screenshot of how the new industries look with opengfx at hand? I always play with opengfx and I have not noticed much ugliness
20:54:19 <planetmaker> anyway... I was sleeping ;-)
20:54:34 <Terkhen> good night**2 planetmaker :)
20:54:53 <andythenorth>
20:55:19 <Terkhen> hmm... is noticeable in the ground, yes
20:55:26 <Terkhen> but for stuff like roofs it shouldn't matter that much
20:55:56 <andythenorth> it would be solvable with advanced layouts
20:56:11 <andythenorth> but as I never use opengfx it's unlikely I'll be annoyed enough to bother fixing it
20:56:25 <Terkhen> yes, I was wondering if it would be possible to change ground tiles easily
20:56:28 <planetmaker> just reference the ground tiles instead of re-drawing them
20:57:00 <andythenorth> not possible with the current template structure
20:57:13 <andythenorth> but would be trivial with advanced sprite layouts
20:57:25 <andythenorth> I tried to code one yesterday, but then couldn't compile
20:57:38 <Terkhen> something to fix later then :P
20:58:13 <andythenorth> it would be useful if the game had magic for action 2 sprite layouts
20:58:31 <andythenorth> so author could just use a bit that said 'give me correct ground tile here'
20:58:42 <andythenorth> for slope + terrain
20:58:58 <andythenorth> even with advanced layout, it will have to be computed by newgrf
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20:59:55 <andythenorth> open gfx lighthouse is better than default one, apart from being a bit noisy
21:00:11 <andythenorth> the default one is oversized and ugly
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21:01:59 <Terkhen> I have not played with default graphics for years :P
21:02:08 <Terkhen> I don't even remember the lighthouse
21:02:38 <Terkhen> just checked, it is indeed huge
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21:09:18 <andythenorth> I had considered to include lighthouses as industries
21:09:29 <andythenorth> accept PAX, Food. Supply PAX
21:10:46 <andythenorth> I discounted the idea as silly
21:10:51 <frosch123> does firs have WDPR wood products?
21:11:02 <andythenorth> that is a painful question :P
21:11:15 <andythenorth> with YACD...lighthouses would be fun
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21:11:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: i just want to fix the dicrepance between the new wiki and the old wiki
21:11:38 <Terkhen> IIRC lumber was WDPR
21:11:57 <andythenorth> yes
21:12:00 <andythenorth> lumber is wdpr
21:12:11 <frosch123> so, it has that cargo :)
21:12:16 <andythenorth> the issues relating to that are too painful to discuss :P
21:12:44 <andythenorth> it requires a detailed discussion of how chipboard is made
21:12:55 <andythenorth> meanwhile
21:13:08 <andythenorth> YACD might supply 200 PAX / month to a lighthouse
21:13:12 <andythenorth> would that be non-ideal?
21:13:34 <Yexo> 200 tourists a month is not so much
21:13:52 <andythenorth> quite a lot of lighthouse keepers though :)
21:14:19 <Yexo> perhaps it's a good location to fish?
21:14:55 <andythenorth> yarp
21:15:06 * andythenorth should work on CHIPS soon
21:15:12 <andythenorth> that had nothing to do with fish comment
21:15:34 <andythenorth> but it's nearly at 10k downloads, and I am superstitious about numbers
21:16:02 <Yexo> you can work on it and just delay the release a bit :)
21:16:34 <andythenorth> I think delaying the release is quite easy :)
21:16:47 <andythenorth> but 10k is enough, definitely time for some 'new'
21:17:14 <andythenorth> do / should stations have snow support in graphics?
21:17:20 <andythenorth> original TTD ones don't
21:17:29 <Yexo> would be very nice :)
21:17:56 <andythenorth> snow can be drawn
21:18:25 <andythenorth> CHIPS has pleasingly low ticket count
21:18:28 <andythenorth>
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21:18:48 <Terkhen> that's an issue: "missing features that cause a lot of bugs" :P
21:19:20 <andythenorth> FIRS has 88 open and 411 closed
21:19:31 <andythenorth> @calc 411/88
21:19:40 <andythenorth> @calc 411/88
21:19:40 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 4.67045454545
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21:23:06 <andythenorth> @calc 88/499
21:23:06 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.176352705411
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21:23:17 <andythenorth> @calc 411/499
21:23:17 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.823647294589
21:23:23 <andythenorth> FIRS is 82% done
21:23:40 <andythenorth> on the silly assumption that all tickets are same amount of 'done'
21:24:01 * andythenorth suspects that it should be re-normalised
21:24:03 <Terkhen> and that no new tickets will appear :)
21:24:10 <andythenorth> allowing for NML conversion, it's about 50% done
21:24:56 <andythenorth> depends how hard recreating comments + template structures is I guess
21:26:09 <andythenorth> this would be an easy CHIPS ticket:
21:26:13 <andythenorth> just needs some feedback
21:28:53 <Terkhen> good night
21:28:59 <bodis> when you get a bigger airport available how do you upgrade?
21:29:11 <bodis> destroy old one and build new one?
21:29:23 <bodis> will all plain roots be still the same?
21:29:41 <core> anyone here familiar with autopilot?
21:29:50 <SpComb> bodis: the station doesn't go away right away
21:29:52 * andythenorth -> bed
21:29:54 *** andythenorth has quit IRC
21:29:58 <bodis> ahh ok
21:30:10 <SpComb> bodis: it times out after a minute or two if you don't build a replacement station
21:30:18 <SpComb> save first and practice :)
21:30:27 <bodis> k thanks :)
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22:27:19 <frosch123> night
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22:47:52 <kermit> im running ottd 0.5.3 on a mac. When I download the latest update do I just replace my old openttd icon with whatever I download? I dont need to download new grfx files or anything?
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22:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> quak
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