IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-01
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00:12:03 <fjb> Does realistic acceleration make horse carriages slow?
00:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly
00:13:33 <Eddi|zuHause> when they have no proper max TE set
00:15:17 <fjb> The horse carriages from eGRVS are reaching astonishing 1km/h.
00:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, that's the minimum speed
00:16:05 <Eddi|zuHause> eGRVTS is older than realistic rv acceleration
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00:16:40 <Mazur> Any Germans about?
00:16:42 <fjb> Looks like there is no sane fallback in this case.
00:16:50 * fjb hides.
00:17:18 <Mazur> Or anyone who can tell me which key is referred to with: Strg
00:17:19 <Mazur> ?
00:17:22 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: it likely gets filled with some default value, which is too low given the little weight that a horse has
00:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: Strg=Ctrl
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00:17:40 <Mazur> Danke.
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00:19:21 <fjb> So I should switch realistic acceleration off till I leave the horse age.
00:19:22 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: you have four options at this point
00:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 1) keep on babbling on how wrong everything is
00:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) live with it and keep quiet
00:19:58 <Eddi|zuHause> 3) turn off realistic acceleration
00:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> 4) update eGRVTS with sane values
00:20:44 <fjb> What license does eGRVTS use?
00:20:56 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea
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00:32:04 <fjb> Hm, only the biggest sailing ship can transport fish. But a fish clipper looks strange.
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00:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> iirc that was discussed at lengths in the thread
00:42:11 <fjb> In witch of that many threads? About sailing ships?
00:43:17 <Eddi|zuHause> each grf tends to have one single (development) thread.
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01:00:40 <lucas92> hi
01:01:49 <lucas92> hey OpenTTD 1.1.1 !!!
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01:05:44 <fjb> The grf in the thread is newer than the one on bananas.
01:07:49 <fjb> Hm, how do I replace a grf in a running game?
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04:59:54 <Terkhen> good morning
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05:37:04 <planetmaker> moin
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05:38:13 <manveru> heya
05:39:02 <manveru> just wanted to thank you guys, haven't had a chance to play this in over a decade :)
05:40:08 <planetmaker> :-)
05:41:40 <Terkhen> :)
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08:11:52 <peter1139>
08:15:41 <planetmaker> :-D nice
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08:32:56 <planetmaker> hehe. After some time it gives the page "Our system has detected unusual traffic from your site. Enter <some captcha>" ;-)
08:33:21 <peter1139> hehe
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10:14:22 <__ln__>
10:18:53 <peter1139> urgh
10:20:24 <fjb> Moin.
10:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> typical case of "your academical assumptions do not hold in the real world"
10:21:30 <fjb> And that real world problem is not really that uncommon.
10:22:20 <__ln__> Certainly not, especially when considering a bit larger cycles.
10:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you're thinking confluences... cycles are really only possible with direct descendents, and then you can't have too many generations between them :p
10:24:15 <fjb> Depends, up to 4 should be possible.
10:24:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an odd discussion topic this early :p
10:25:38 <fjb> That topic is always odd in our current culture.
10:27:27 <fjb> To get back on topic: Is it not possible any more to change grfs in a running game?
10:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but we won't tell people how :p
10:28:30 <Eddi|zuHause> rule number one is we don't talk about it
10:28:36 <fjb> And if I'm not a people?
10:28:37 <planetmaker> only scenario developers and newgrf developers are assumed to know the associated risks and not blame any related crashes onto OpenTTD ;-)
10:28:58 <planetmaker> was that hint enough when looking at your config file?
10:29:54 <fjb> Ah, a config file... didn't expect something there. :-)
10:30:33 <planetmaker> every setting... should be there
10:30:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the console works as well ;)
10:31:24 <planetmaker> yes :-) But * developers know that :-P
10:32:51 * fjb had expected something else under that setting.
10:34:06 <planetmaker> in case of doubt use the lesser tool box - which is the scenario developer tools
10:34:12 <fjb> And it could also have been hidden under a magic key combination which OpenTTD has many.
10:34:57 <planetmaker> well... but even then it would need to be a setting
10:36:44 <fjb> Not in every case. It would also have been hidden from the casual user.
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10:37:43 <fjb> But thanks any way.
10:43:16 <fjb> Oh, many new things. The production chain view is great.
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10:44:30 <planetmaker> :-) But that's unrelated to developer settings. But VERY helpful indeed :-)
10:45:57 <fjb> Both is very helpful.
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12:09:47 <lucas92> hi
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12:20:05 <planetmaker> ho
12:23:25 <Ammler> huhu
12:26:30 <planetmaker> huhu Ammler :-)
12:27:00 <planetmaker> I saw this morning that someone - I assume you - already had updated our stable server :-) Thanks
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12:33:08 <Ammler> yep almost same time as the news on
12:33:35 <Ammler> is is such a nice version string :-)
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12:39:11 <planetmaker> hehe, yeah :-)
12:39:26 <planetmaker> will be the nicest one for long, I guess
12:39:40 <planetmaker> The next similarily nice one will be 1.2.3 possibly ;-)
12:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> 2.3.5 ;)
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12:46:44 <Ammler> well, the next release could be called
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12:53:30 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, if you go by Fibonacci, then 1.1.2 is just as good - and much closer :-P
12:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i was actually thinking consecutive primes
12:53:54 <planetmaker> :-)
12:54:22 <planetmaker> 1.2.3 would fit :-P
12:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 is not a prime
12:54:35 <planetmaker> depending on whether 1 is prime or not
12:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not even questionable... it does not make any sense to declare 1 a prime
12:55:46 <planetmaker> why not? It's divisible by 1 and itself ;-)
12:56:06 <planetmaker> but those divisors are not distinct...
12:56:06 <Eddi|zuHause> absolutely no system benefits from 1 being a prime. it only complicates things
12:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> every single proposition about primes that currently hold would read "every prime except 1"
12:57:05 <planetmaker> :-)
12:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the most obvious one being the prime factorisation
12:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if you allowed 1, it would not be unique anymore
12:57:46 <planetmaker>
12:58:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that discussion was settled 100 years ago
12:58:50 <planetmaker> Lebesgue is not such bad company :-P
12:59:19 <Noldo> does it really make any difference
12:59:38 <Noldo> it's all about consepts, how they are defined and what are the axioms
13:00:07 <planetmaker> read the link I provided. It gives cases where it makes a difference.
13:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> aside from the above prime factorisation, 1 (or any "unit", i.e an element with a multiplicative inverse element) gets in the way if you extend primes to other structures than natrual numbers
13:03:12 <Noldo> yes, some theorems are not valid in another set on axioms and are valid in others
13:04:59 <Eddi|zuHause> this discussion is over. for 100 years already. the "1 is not prime" guys won. get over it.
13:08:54 <Noldo> if it's important to you
13:09:40 <Belugas> hello
13:17:03 <lucas92> about the trains with the .5 indicator
13:17:11 <lucas92> I would have put 1/2 instead
13:17:21 <lucas92> for example 61/2
13:17:27 <lucas92> 1/2 smaller
13:17:31 <lucas92> than 6
13:17:49 <Yexo> lucas92: and what about 6.4?
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13:17:56 <Yexo> display 6 2/5 ?
13:18:01 <lucas92> yeah
13:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: that was tried, and declined
13:18:13 <lucas92> but I'm talking about openTTD
13:18:23 <lucas92> when does this happen
13:18:27 <lucas92> 2/5?
13:18:29 <Yexo> newgrf vehicles
13:18:34 <lucas92> ahh yeah
13:18:40 <Yexo> lengths are in 1/8 units
13:18:43 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: vehicles can be shortened in steps of 1/16
13:18:45 <Yexo> so 2/5 can't actually happen
13:19:02 <Yexo> ah, 1/16 of a tile indeed
13:19:29 <lucas92> anyway, I like better fractions, because trains are not numbers lol
13:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause>
13:20:16 <lucas92> yeah like that
13:20:18 <lucas92> awesome
13:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it was decided to go the other way that you see now.
13:20:44 <lucas92> is this going to be in the stable release?
13:20:48 <lucas92> aww
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13:21:04 <lucas92> but decimals dont make any sense with trains
13:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> so?
13:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> why do decimals make less sense than fractions?
13:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> they are just another representation of the same values
13:21:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and _everything_ is a number in a computer game
13:22:00 <lucas92> because you wont say I drank 0.5 of a water bottle
13:22:13 <lucas92> you would say I drank a half of a water bottle
13:22:15 <lucas92> lol
13:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it says "1,5l" on my bottle
13:22:39 <Eddi|zuHause> this is a stupid argument.
13:22:57 <lucas92> anyway
13:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i say "one pound" and not "half a kilo" at the butcher's
13:23:30 <lucas92> but they are not even the same unit
13:23:44 <lucas92> you can't compare apples with oranges
13:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they are. in germany, one pound is defined as 500g
13:25:00 <lucas92> I mean, you would say it's half a pound, not 0.5 pound
13:25:09 <lucas92> or you would say 500 g
13:25:19 <lucas92> two different names
13:25:34 <Eddi|zuHause> half a pound would be 250g, obviously
13:25:48 <lucas92> oops
13:25:51 <lucas92> yeah
13:26:02 <lucas92> I'm not too familiar with english unity
13:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not an english pound
13:26:22 <lucas92> I'm more familiar with the Kg/meters/seconds unity
13:26:32 <lucas92> no?
13:27:26 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, around the 1850's, it was decided to unify the ~50 different measurement systems in use across the country, and go with the SI units
13:27:40 <lucas92> ok, but pound is not SI
13:27:47 <lucas92> g is
13:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> at that point, "pound" meant something different throughout the country, so the new "metric pound" was defined as something in the middle, and easily comparable to metric units
13:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so "1 pound" got exactly "500g"
13:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> this made transition easier, as the local population still could use "pound"
13:29:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but now it meant something very specific
13:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> 2 pounds = 1 kilo
13:29:40 <lucas92> ok well it's not that bad of a unit
13:30:18 <lucas92> well, the point is that you can't do unit conversions with trains
13:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it very slowly grows out of fashion now, but it is still widely understood
13:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but it doesn't count trains
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13:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it counts tiles
13:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. length units
13:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you can say a train is 500m
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13:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or a train is 0,5km
13:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> means exactly the same
13:31:38 <lucas92> hmm yeah
13:31:47 <lucas92> from that point of view
13:32:01 <lucas92> but when it says 6.5 what does that mean?
13:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> 6 tiles and one half?
13:33:11 <lucas92> yeah
13:33:14 <lucas92> exactly
13:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> so?
13:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> previously it said "13", what did that mean then?
13:33:51 <lucas92> well, it's more like 61/2?
13:34:07 <lucas92> 13 cargo trains
13:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (61)/2 is something very different
13:34:27 <lucas92> no 6 1/2
13:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: but it also said 13 if i had 17 wagons
13:34:35 <lucas92> lol
13:34:45 <lucas92> really?
13:34:46 <lucas92> hmm
13:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause> when the 17 wagons were shorter
13:35:02 <lucas92> then decimals are better
13:35:22 <petern> ...
13:35:27 <petern> it's measured in tile lengths now
13:35:36 <petern> instead of original-size wagon lengths
13:36:10 <lucas92> I find it still weird to call a half of a tile 0.5 tile
13:36:17 <petern> why?
13:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you missed 5th grade maths or something?
13:36:27 <petern> is 0.5 = 1/2 a difficult concept for you?
13:36:30 <lucas92> you wouldn't say 0.5 orange
13:36:39 <petern> you would say 0.5 metres
13:36:43 <lucas92> yes
13:37:12 <lucas92> anyway, tile seems to be a measure unity so it's fine like that too
13:39:19 <lucas92> I'm glad that Germany denied nuclear power
13:39:35 <petern> good luck with your wind farms
13:40:01 <lucas92> yeah, not sure if coal is better than nuclear anyway
13:40:20 <lucas92> it's still a lot of air pollution
13:40:30 <petern> of course it's not
13:40:52 <lucas92> while Nuclear was pollution free but with nuke risks
13:41:12 <lucas92> hydroelecticity is the best
13:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> "pollution free" is a myth anyway
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13:41:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hydroelectricity has its own disadvantages
13:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's basically exhausted already
13:42:01 <lucas92> not where I live
13:42:04 <petern> you could create a load of lakes
13:42:13 <petern> but that's not exactly... clean
13:42:27 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: in densly populated germany, it is.
13:42:35 <lucas92> yes
13:42:54 <lucas92> in Canada, there's still a lot of potential
13:43:20 <petern> screw the rest of the world, we're alright!
13:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause> but how do you get the power from canada to germany? :p
13:43:36 <__ln__> lucas92: coal is a lot worse than nuclear
13:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: but coal doesn't tend to explode and devastate huge strips of land
13:44:15 <__ln__> no, it kills silently
13:44:20 <lucas92> lol
13:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> small exercise: google for "east ural trail"
13:44:50 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: also, nuclear doesn't "tend" to do that
13:44:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... "track" not "trail"
13:44:59 <lucas92> I'm not sure but I think they are working on a way to market the electricity right now
13:45:37 <__ln__> radiation emissions of coal are higher than with nuclear, although that's not what kills
13:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: it's actually not about the emmissions during "normal operation"
13:46:30 <lucas92> but do Germany have lot of earthquakes?
13:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: yes, but smaller ones, up to strength 5
13:47:37 <fjb> It has some.
13:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> not 8-9 like japan
13:48:24 <lucas92> yeah that's kinda stupid not using nuclear power then
13:48:40 <fjb> What do you do with the waste?
13:48:44 <petern> 14:39 < lucas92> I'm glad that Germany denied nuclear power
13:48:46 <petern> nice :p
13:48:47 <lucas92> lol
13:49:00 <petern> opinion swing in 9 minutes :p
13:49:02 <lucas92> yeah medias suck
13:49:33 <lucas92> they always seem to disinform about the actuality that is far away
13:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the major critique points was that some nuclear power stations were not designed to withstand earthquake strengths that actually did happen in the last 100 recorded years
13:50:41 <glx> <fjb> What do you do with the waste? <-- you send them in france, like every other countries in the world ;)
13:50:47 <lucas92> lol
13:50:56 <lucas92> you send them into space
13:50:57 <fjb> It would be far to expensive to build that strong nuclear power plants.
13:51:21 <fjb> glx: The french tend to send it back. :(
13:51:22 <lucas92> you throw them into a black hole
13:51:22 <__ln__> glx: nah, we send it to soviet union or russia. (though not anymore after it became politically incorrect)
13:51:29 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: have you seen futurama? :p
13:51:34 <lucas92> no
13:51:36 <lucas92> lol
13:51:41 <lucas92> is that a comics?
13:51:49 <glx> fjb: yes but it's usually less dangerous when sent back
13:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:52:16 <fjb> glx: The opinions about that differ. :)
13:52:27 <__ln__> the waste can probably be reused in the future to get more energy from it.
13:52:44 <glx> or to make bombs
13:53:04 <__ln__> glx: whichever is more beneficial at the time
13:53:05 <fjb> Can probably... Are you sure? And when will that be? How to store it in a secure way until then?
13:53:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it is illegal to ignite a nuclear explosion in germany
13:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> punishable by up to 5 years jail, or money fee.
13:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you actually kill people, then that weighs more :p)
13:54:19 <lucas92> lol
13:54:20 <fjb> So we could send some people to jail for up to 5 years if one of the german nuclear power plants explodes.
13:54:46 <__ln__> fjb: i've reading sources that say it can be done. it's stored somehow right now, and even if shutting down the plants, the waste needs to be stored some way.
13:55:21 <fjb> __ln__: But every day a produces more waste.
13:55:25 <glx> germany will just buy our nuclear electricity ;)
13:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: the "storage" right now is a metall hall with a fence around it, in the countryside.
13:56:40 <Vikthor> glx: Well, that's not without drawback, here(Czech republic) goverment is expecting 30% rise in electricity cost due to german policy
13:56:53 <fjb> glx: France buys a lot of german electricity because nuclear power plants produce always the same power, independent of the real demand.
13:56:53 <petern> windfarms everywhere!
13:56:53 <petern> lol
13:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause>
13:57:33 <glx> fjb: right, but germany won't produce the same amount without nuclear power plant
13:57:41 <glx> at least not immediately
13:57:44 <__ln__> fjb: yes, but also burning coal produces both carbondioxide and small particles that people breathe and then die from.
13:58:14 <fjb> Only 4 of our nuclear power plants are actually producing eletricity, and we still sell some to other countries.
13:58:45 <fjb> __ln__: Coal is not your only choice.
13:59:02 <petern> true
13:59:05 <petern> there's oil and gas too
13:59:09 <glx> and wood
13:59:14 <Vikthor> well we are one of the biggest exporters in EU with only 2 NPP.
13:59:22 <Belugas> and sticks and stones
13:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it was said since the "fukushima" incident and the subsequent shutting down of the oldest nuclear power stations in germany, we went from net-exporter to net-importer of power. but that is not actually because we can't produce enough power, but because power from other countries is cheaper
14:00:02 <glx> of course
14:00:10 <Belugas> solar panels on every roofs
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14:00:56 <glx> Belugas: yeah and EDF is forced to buy it :)
14:01:08 <glx> it = electricity
14:01:09 <Vikthor> Belugas: You would still need backups for night and overcast weather
14:01:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there are also loads of conspiracy theories floating around, like the major electricity companies actively blocking importing hydro-power from norway
14:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> problem with relying on solar and wind power is you need some way to store the energy
14:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and the only sane way that is currently known to mankind is pumping water uphill
14:02:47 <glx> pumps to put water in high places ?
14:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but that needs a hill.
14:02:57 <fjb> Vikthor: You need some more storage power plants. But you also need some for nuclear power.
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14:03:36 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Or a hole in the ground.
14:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there are weird experiments currently going on, like pushing pressured air into natural caverns
14:04:16 <Vikthor> fjb: Well, if you have mix of powerplants that can be stopped(hydro, gas etc) you don't need that much storage with nuclear PP
14:05:06 <fjb> Vikthor: What are you doing with the unneeded nuclar electricity at night?
14:05:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Vikthor: the current storage infrastructure is to supply the peak energy, while nuclear power stations provide the base energy
14:06:57 <Vikthor> Yes, but you can stop the peak sources at the night, thus the need for storage is fairly small
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14:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, it's currently that "base" energy (24/7 steady lowest consumption) is provided about equal share by nuclear, "stone" coal and "brown" coal, the facilities that need >3h to get running once stopped. the peak energy (highest consumption by day/evening) are gas power and hydroelectric power, increasingly wind power.
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14:13:51 <Vikthor> Well it is more or less the same for Czech republic, the difference is with hydro, gas, or even coal power plants you can plan ahead, whereas with solar and wind you can't be sure if you will have enrgy at disposal when you need it
14:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that is why you need improved storage. to harness the energy when it is available, and not when you need it
14:17:24 <Vikthor> Well the other way is to use backups, ie for every 1000 MW of solar and wind you install 1000 MW of gas PP, which will be idling most of the time
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14:25:43 <__ln__> do i remember correctly that 'parameter' is not 'parametre' in britishish?
14:29:00 <Alexandra_> how do you change your name on IRC?
14:29:28 <Alexandra_> that's my sister name
14:29:59 <Thorn_> /nick
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14:30:31 <lucas92> ok thanks
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14:33:12 <__ln__> lucas92: does she play openttd?
14:33:21 <lucas92> no
14:33:23 <lucas92> XD
14:33:36 <lucas92> she's a sims 3 addict though
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14:35:53 <Belugas> [10:00] <+glx> Belugas: yeah and EDF is forced to buy it :) <-- we do someting like that here, actually. The unused generated power by solar panels/windmill and even private hydro stations are sold back to Hydro Quebec (our own EDF)
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14:38:04 <lucas92> yes Hydro Quebec
14:38:09 <lucas92> my dad works there
14:38:16 <lucas92> in research
14:38:33 <lucas92> I'm a quebecer btw
14:38:40 <lucas92> Je parle franais
14:40:22 <Belugas> cool, moi aussi! mais comme on est pas beaucoup a le faire, on a pas le choix de parler anglais ;)
14:40:27 <Belugas> Dommage :)
14:40:34 <__ln__> zomg, the number of quebeqians has doubled on the channel then
14:40:39 <Belugas> lol
14:40:59 <Belugas> scary, isn't it ;)
14:41:22 <__ln__> yes, reminds me of the Borg invasion in Star Trek 8, or something
14:42:05 <__ln__> "population 9 billion, all québec"
14:43:01 <lucas92> hahaha
14:43:40 <lucas92> anyway, I guess you think that Steven Harper is a bad leaded?
14:43:43 <lucas92> leader
14:44:08 <__ln__> i don't happen to know (about) him
14:44:27 <lucas92> ugh, basically, he is a pro-bush
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14:53:29 <Belugas> Harper is a strange guy, living in an old age mentality
14:55:47 <ccfreak2k> lucas92, wouldn't that actually make you quebequois?
14:56:16 <lucas92> yes
14:56:29 <lucas92> quebecer
14:56:38 <lucas92> and Canadian
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15:01:56 <Belugas> under a blue sky
15:01:58 <Belugas> finally
15:02:13 <Belugas> well.. at least in montreal
15:03:04 <__ln__> Belugas/lucas92: what do you answer if someone asks "are you american?"
15:03:21 <lucas92> no
15:03:42 <lucas92> Canadians consider that americans are people in the US
15:03:47 <lucas92> USA
15:03:52 <__ln__> i've heard one potential answer is "Yes, I'm from Canada."
15:04:41 <lucas92> well, american is correct since Canada is part of North America
15:04:52 <Belugas> we are NOT americans for sure. That's the silliest statement i've heard
15:04:56 <lucas92> but yeah
15:05:01 <peter1138> you are :)
15:05:13 <peter1138> in the pedantic sense, not in the usual sense
15:05:32 <Belugas> mh.. true...
15:05:46 * Belugas shivers from the though
15:05:48 <Ammler> Belugas: as much as we are Europeans :-)
15:05:51 <Terkhen> :D
15:05:57 <Belugas> quite :)
15:06:44 <Belugas> but as lucas92 mentionned, in our minds (canadian minds), americans are us guys. we are very different from them
15:06:53 <Belugas> even more us, quebecers
15:07:18 <lucas92> well, I wouldn't say that we are much different
15:07:32 <lucas92> I'd say that the East is very different from the West
15:08:24 <lucas92> The more you go far from sea, the more people believe in god and stuff like that
15:09:12 <Belugas> bigots are every where :S
15:09:44 <lucas92> I can't believe Harper entered in majority
15:09:46 <lucas92> wow
15:10:06 <Belugas> was a sad day indeed
15:10:32 <Belugas> i was happy about Bloc defeat though. always thouggh it was a real waste
15:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> Belugas: as much as we are Europeans :-) <-- ever asked a british guy whether he is european? :p
15:11:13 <Belugas> hehehe
15:11:35 <Belugas> continental europeans :) they are on an island!
15:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd think that the average swiss person, even though not in the EU, feels more european than the average british person, even though they're in the EU
15:12:44 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: yes, I didn't mean just we swiss
15:14:49 <Ammler> also for us it is a bit easier, since "Europe" isn't part of a country name
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15:15:52 <Belugas> YUP
15:15:55 <Vikthor> Eddi|zuHause: Well you don't have to be in the EU to feel European
15:16:06 <Belugas> oopps... Caps lock
15:16:24 <Ammler> Belugas: but don't you say, I go to "the States", not "America"
15:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but "state-people" would sound silly :p
15:17:05 <Belugas> personnaly, i say that I go to the US
15:17:17 <Belugas> or NewYork, or Miami or else
15:17:22 <Ammler> :-)
15:17:31 <lucas92> my parents say going to the states
15:17:52 <lucas92> oh wait
15:17:57 <lucas92> not really XD
15:18:01 <lucas92> in french
15:18:27 <Belugas> i'm sure they rather say "on descend a Plattsburg" :)
15:19:07 <lucas92> lol
15:19:11 <lucas92> yeah
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15:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> what's plattsburg?
15:21:34 <Belugas> it's a town not too far from the border, famous for its beaches
15:21:39 <Belugas> and cheap stores :)
15:25:05 <lucas92> yeah cheap stores
15:25:10 <lucas92> mostly
15:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's like going to luxemburg for cheap gas
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15:28:26 <Belugas> maybe. do you cross a border with a good long waiting line? hehehe
15:29:37 <__ln__> when i entered Luxemburg (from Belgium) with my friends, we didn't notice the damn border. we only became suspicious because of the cheap gas price.
15:30:14 <Belugas> it's like going from quebec to ontario :)
15:30:23 <__ln__> the border was in the middle of a village or something
15:30:23 <Belugas> no border and gas is cheaper
15:30:34 <Belugas> ho.. and the roads are better in ontario...
15:32:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the Schengen treaty makes it possible ;)
15:32:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Schengen - one of the most famous small villages on the planet ;)
15:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Schengen is in Luxemburg, near the border to France and Germany, at the river there was a lying ship where one of the elementary foundations of the european union was signed
15:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the abolishment of visa requirements and border checks
15:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> only britain didn't join yet
15:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but switzerland did
15:35:41 <__ln__> and norway
15:35:57 <planetmaker> and Danmark kinda stated it wants to start ignoring it...
15:35:59 <planetmaker> :-(
15:36:38 <planetmaker> Indeed a very elementary part of the EU treaties
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15:37:16 <__ln__> there wasn't much border control between switzerland and germany before schengen either.
15:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't know...
15:40:08 <planetmaker> __ln__: well, there *is* border control between Switzerland and Germany
15:40:36 <planetmaker> quite unlike to all other adjacent countries
15:41:08 <__ln__> i've crossed that border without anyone asking me anything in 1998
15:41:13 <planetmaker> well, I didn't test with Poland, but all others is where I could go without stopping and producing a passport.
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15:43:00 <Terkhen> hmm... why is people still using cargo IDs for coding vehicles?
15:44:30 <Yexo> because they have no idea what they're doing
15:44:35 <Terkhen> and I was asked for my passport when entering germany years ago :P
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15:45:37 <peter1138> maybe they don't realise they should be using labels
15:46:55 <peter1138> mind you, iirc, george used different translation tables depending on what other grfs were loaded, kinda defeating the point...
15:47:31 <George> I never did it
15:47:36 <peter1138> hmm
15:47:40 <peter1138> maybe it was someone else
15:47:52 * frosch123 bets on canset
15:47:55 * planetmaker wasn't asked for a passport for ages within Europe - except that time I travelled through Switzerland.
15:48:15 <planetmaker> Previous to that only upon leaving or returning on airports
15:48:18 <Terkhen> hmm... maybe he's asking because he's thinking about an addon for FIRS
15:48:33 <Terkhen> I wasn't asked for a passport when entering norway :P
15:49:02 <Terkhen> I felt cheated, I lost a morning in a long queue to update it
15:49:32 <Yexo> peter1138: wasn't it canset who did that?
15:50:56 <Alberth> Terkhen: you should ask your money back :p
15:51:13 <Terkhen> that too, burocracy isn't cheap :P
15:55:48 * planetmaker thinks that frosch will win his bet
15:56:40 <frosch123> did you check? :)
15:57:00 <planetmaker> no. But I faintly recall those statements in a related thread
15:57:45 <frosch123> ok, so, 3 apes 1 idea, can't be wrong
15:57:58 <planetmaker> and wondering at the same time why several might be needed ;-). Yeah, that :-P
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15:59:37 <frosch123> hmm.,, when there are 5 topics in a row in a forum which got a new post by the same user... it is probably not worth to read any of them
15:59:51 <planetmaker> :-)
16:00:08 <planetmaker> which user? Brumi?
16:00:14 <frosch123> something with x
16:00:46 <frosch123> ah x and a galiian druid :)
16:01:02 <planetmaker> I don't see such new ones. But there was a lot of spam today.
16:01:23 <frosch123> well, they are from yesterday, but i did not read forums since then :)
16:05:16 <Eddi|zuHause> lot's of "i updated this patch"... nothing important
16:06:26 <planetmaker> most interesting I found the update to the yacd patch ;-)
16:06:59 <frosch123> that would actually be quite a surprise :) i would bet on "i like this, how can i make it work in 1.1.0-rc2?"
16:07:16 <Terkhen> heh, that's how I started with the code :P
16:07:31 <planetmaker> hehe. Me, too
16:07:55 <planetmaker> I really wanted another wwottdgd. And it succeeded eventually ;-)
16:08:05 <planetmaker> And I learnt how to use VCS then
16:09:03 <planetmaker> how could I ever do without? ;-)
16:09:58 *** tokai|mdlx has joined #openttd
16:10:35 <Alberth> it is unbelievable how easy it is to do without what you don't know about :p
16:11:01 <planetmaker> yeah
16:13:37 <frosch123> ah, now i arrived at the brumi topics :)
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16:16:09 <planetmaker> they're ok. Bug reports to AIs and similar
16:16:44 <frosch123> might be, but i would still only read them if they would be my topic
16:17:24 <lucas92> what is yacd?
16:18:10 <Alberth> yet another cargo dist/dest
16:18:17 <Alberth> it's in the development forum
16:18:25 <lucas92> ok
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16:22:37 <lucas92> I try to apply the patch with TurtoiseSVN and nothing happens
16:22:42 *** OpenTTDNood has joined #openttd
16:22:54 <OpenTTDNood> pouet
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16:24:15 <lucas92> oh it's a git patch
16:24:17 <lucas92> XD
16:25:42 <Terkhen> yes, tortoisesvn is a bit stupid regarding patches
16:25:52 <Alberth> don't bother with tortoiseSVN, switch to tortoiseHG
16:26:08 <lucas92> turtoiseHG
16:26:09 <lucas92> ok
16:26:31 <Alberth> that way you can have your own changes in your own repositories
16:26:34 <planetmaker> indeed. When patching HG or git are much superior
16:26:57 <lucas92> is TurtoiseHG a SVN browser too?
16:27:11 <Terkhen> no, tortoiseHG is for mercurial
16:27:15 <lucas92> ok
16:27:25 <Alberth> no, it uses mercurial, and there is a mercurial mirror of openttd
16:28:04 <planetmaker> hg = chemical symbol for mercurial ;-)
16:28:09 <lucas92> yeah
16:28:30 <planetmaker> </smart ass> :-P
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16:28:59 <lucas92> well, I'm restarting my computer
16:29:01 <lucas92> see ya
16:29:07 <lucas92> in 2 minutes
16:29:12 <planetmaker> :-)
16:29:16 <Alberth> the joys of windows :)
16:29:25 <lucas92> yep
16:29:28 <Ammler> must be a old windows
16:29:36 <Terkhen> tortoisehg requires a restart? why? :O
16:29:36 <lucas92> no it's Windows 7
16:29:43 <lucas92> dunno
16:29:49 <Ammler> 2 mins to reboot?
16:29:55 <lucas92> maybe?
16:30:03 * planetmaker never understood why installing a programme needs reboots
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16:30:16 <Terkhen> ah, right, tortoise* programs play with the context menus
16:30:24 <planetmaker> yes, so?
16:30:28 <Terkhen> and windows is not able to start using new context options without a restart
16:30:33 <Terkhen> no idea, windows is stupid
16:30:47 <Terkhen> specially regarding changes to stuff that shouldn't be a core part of the OS
16:31:00 <Ammler> doesn't have x-restart :-)
16:31:18 <Terkhen> there is no equivalent of x in windows, it is part of the OS itself
16:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the main reason i quit using windows. every silly small program needed a restart
16:32:50 <Terkhen> I still need windows to play new games as soon as they are released :P
16:33:18 <planetmaker> :-D
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16:34:02 <lucas92> what's up
16:34:21 *** KouDy has joined #openttd
16:34:22 <Terkhen> not much, talking about windows vs linux as usual
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16:34:28 <lucas92> lol
16:34:35 <lucas92> both are good
16:34:39 * Rubidium isn't really bothered by the reboots upon application installation, when I had to reliably boot it three times a day due to utter hanging :(
16:35:03 <Terkhen> lucas92: that's a great phrase for ending circular discussions :)
16:35:18 <Terkhen> I get hangs all the time with gnome 3 now :/
16:35:24 <lucas92> yep, both are for different uses
16:35:36 <lucas92> running servers on Linux is awesome
16:35:54 <Terkhen> maybe it's time to switch from gnome to something else
16:35:57 <lucas92> while making school projects on Windows is awesome for compatibility
16:36:30 * Terkhen does not like kde either
16:38:14 <lucas92> so I need to create a new repository for mercurial
16:38:16 <lucas92> ?
16:38:27 <Terkhen> no, you need to clone the openttd repository
16:38:34 <lucas92> ok
16:38:49 <lucas92> ctr c ctr v?
16:39:07 <Terkhen> see
16:39:19 <Terkhen> hmm... no, that's for console mercurial
16:39:23 <Terkhen> I don't know how to use tortoisehg
16:39:32 * Belugas goes outside shooting some pixels
16:39:33 <planetmaker> it has its own tutorial, for sure
16:39:41 <lucas92> yeah ok I'll google it
16:39:42 <planetmaker> *poof*
16:39:56 <planetmaker> but let them live, Belugas ! ;-)
16:40:39 * planetmaker goes outside "shooting" some food
16:40:50 * fjb hides.
16:41:06 * planetmaker wonders whether fjb thinks I'm a canibal :-P
16:41:09 <lucas92>
16:42:16 * fjb doesn't trust all that "shooting".
16:42:17 <Alberth>
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17:02:41 <lucas92> ok it's HG Clone
17:02:50 <lucas92> for getting the mercurial repository
17:05:11 <lucas92> I guess I'll compile OpenTTD an another time XD
17:06:16 <lucas92> anyone playing OpenTTD right now?
17:07:16 <fjb> Yes.
17:08:40 <lucas92> which server?
17:09:25 *** KouDy has quit IRC
17:11:10 <Terkhen> localhost? :P
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17:12:32 <lucas92> you?
17:12:43 <anythingffs> guys, is there anyway to turn off the council rating?
17:12:46 <lucas92> I've never tried local hosting
17:13:05 <lucas92> advanced settings I think
17:13:10 <lucas92> local authority
17:13:58 <Terkhen> anythingffs: no
17:14:34 <lucas92> aww
17:14:48 <lucas92> how would you modify that in the source code?
17:14:56 <lucas92> which files?
17:15:18 <lucas92> putting an option in the advanced settings window
17:15:22 * anythingffs wants a dictatorship!
17:15:28 <lucas92> under authority
17:15:40 <lucas92> Economy/towns
17:15:58 <Terkhen> I would start by looking for a commit in the revision log that adds a setting, that way you know which files you need to modify and how to add a setting
17:16:25 <lucas92> ok
17:16:27 <Terkhen> then there must be checks for town rating somewhere, turn them into conditional checks depending on your new setting
17:16:35 <Terkhen> wait, I think I remember one revision like that
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17:18:07 <Terkhen> meh, it won't help you, how settings are coded changed recently
17:18:59 <Terkhen> <--- unless I'm mistaken the only thing that changes is is the trunk/src/table/settings.h part (ignore roadveh.h, that is the functionality of the setting itself)
17:20:10 <Terkhen> settings.h is now settings.ini and it uses a different format, but it should be something equivalent
17:20:28 <lucas92> ok
17:21:17 <lucas92> I assume that _variable variables are global?
17:21:39 <Alberth> there is already a setting for counsil attitude, it's just that the 'ignore filthy rich tycoon destroying our landscape' value is missing there :)
17:21:45 <Alberth> yes
17:22:11 <Alberth>
17:23:58 <Terkhen> meh, can we ban using cargo IDs for vehicles? :P
17:24:53 <lucas92> what is SDT_CONDVAR?
17:26:04 <Terkhen> look for it in the definitions, it should be documented IIRC
17:26:44 <Terkhen> openttd uses different savegame versions, new settings have to define in which versions they are present
17:26:47 <lucas92> I think I understand
17:26:53 <lucas92> the code how it works
17:27:24 <Terkhen> in the example I pasted, the new variable was introduced in savegame version 139 and it is available until version SL_MAX_VERSION
17:27:43 <Terkhen> you will need to bump the savegame version in your patch too
17:31:25 <lucas92> what's the point of the multiple #ifdef WITH_FREETYPE in tables/settings.h
17:31:27 <lucas92> ?
17:31:48 <lucas92> only one #ifdef is needed here
17:33:49 <Belugas> boredome 1, pixels 0
17:35:53 <peter1138> Terkhen, deprecate it?
17:35:58 <peter1138> flash up huge warnings!
17:36:15 <Belugas> muahahah!!! in order to answer, i need to svn up big time :)
17:37:23 <Terkhen> "this set will likely break in the future or not work at all with new industry sets unless it is updated frequently"
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17:39:23 <peter1138> by "using cargo IDs" i assume you mean it doesn't use a translation table?
17:41:28 <Terkhen> yes, it uses IDs directly
17:41:46 <lucas92> would have an idea of how to remove local authority
17:41:59 <planetmaker> [19:23] Terkhen meh, can we ban using cargo IDs for vehicles? :P <-- well... not directly. But a grf defining vehicles without CTT might become invalid in nfo v8 ;-)
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17:42:11 <Terkhen> s/might/should/
17:42:38 <Terkhen> lucas92: you will need to dig into the code for that, I don't know how it is handled :)
17:42:48 <Alberth> lucas92: tables/settings.h is generated
17:42:48 <Terkhen> you should check if your setting appears correctly (even if it does nothing) first
17:43:01 <lucas92> ok
17:45:27 <lucas92> wasn't there a setting that set the town authority to permissive, severe?
17:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22530 /trunk/src/lang/ (polish.txt unfinished/frisian.txt):
17:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 6 changes by Fopper
17:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 5 changes by nouwak
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17:47:32 <Wolf01> hello
17:47:39 <Alberth> evenink
17:49:47 <Terkhen> hi Alberth
17:49:54 <Terkhen> lucas92: yes
17:50:10 <Terkhen> you could also add a new option to that setting: ignore
17:50:12 <Alberth> game options
17:50:19 <Terkhen> oh, game options are more complicated :)
17:50:22 <lucas92> yeah that's what I think
17:50:37 <lucas92> oh
17:50:55 <lucas92> is there any example of game option?
17:53:34 <Terkhen> I don't know if they are meant to be edited at all, I never modified one
17:53:48 <Terkhen> so I don't know if they work like advanced settings or not :P
17:54:16 <lucas92> meh
17:54:31 <lucas92> I'm trying too hard
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17:55:20 <planetmaker> not game options. Difficulty options
17:55:40 <lucas92> I want to try something real easy to modify, let's say drawing a big ugly rectangle on the main screen
17:55:46 <planetmaker> But yes, they're not handled exactly the same way. But adding it there is the logical way.
17:55:49 <lucas92> where do I put the code?
17:56:02 <planetmaker> that's not easy ;-)
17:56:09 <lucas92> huh?
17:56:13 <planetmaker> more difficult than changing difficulty settings
17:56:17 <lucas92> XD
17:56:19 <lucas92> twt
17:56:20 <lucas92> wtf
17:56:23 <planetmaker> Unless you draw a window
17:56:33 <lucas92> ok a window then
17:56:46 <planetmaker> then look at a *_gui.cpp and look ;-)
17:56:52 <lucas92> ok
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17:57:26 * andythenorth is puzzled
17:57:30 <planetmaker> thanks to alberth's gui re-write handling windows is very easy now. And nearly fail-proof
17:57:41 <andythenorth> is it better to keep grf-crawler because it does stuff that bananas doesn't?
17:57:50 <andythenorth> or is it better to improve bananas and shut grf-crawler?
17:57:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes and no
17:57:55 <andythenorth> one imvolves more work
17:58:02 <andythenorth> the other is better for users in the long run
17:58:06 <Terkhen> IMO grfcrawler should be kept anyways, even if just as an archive
17:58:07 <planetmaker> I prefer the bananas solution.
17:58:22 <andythenorth> see
17:58:23 <planetmaker> I just updated my checkout of extra/website/bananas ;-)
17:58:23 <Terkhen> but bananas should be able to do everything that grfcrawler does :)
17:58:30 <andythenorth> two good answers from two sensible people :P
17:58:56 <andythenorth> both different :P
17:59:06 <lucas92> gui.cpp...
17:59:11 <planetmaker> I do also agree with the statement "should be kept"
17:59:20 <planetmaker> There's obviously no need to shut it down
17:59:29 <planetmaker> it's running as it seems on a tt-forums server anyway
17:59:48 <planetmaker> just he has to hand over responsibility / admin access to *someone*
17:59:52 <Alberth> lucas92: no, a file that ends with "_gui.cpp" that's what *_gui.cpp means
17:59:54 <planetmaker> preferrably orudge
18:00:02 <Terkhen> lucas92: if game options / difficulty options work like advanced settings you should only need to change the GUI if you are adding a new setting, if you modify an existing one it already has a space in the window
18:00:02 <lucas92> ok lol
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18:03:17 <Terkhen> are you going to update bananas? :P
18:03:19 <planetmaker> I've the feeling that the 'best' approach usually is to have a goal with your source code modifications, lucas92 ;-)
18:03:26 <planetmaker> then it will somewhat come naturally
18:03:30 <orudge> planetmaker: well, my intention is to take control of it, whether Oskar may like that or not, we'll have to see :p
18:03:37 <orudge> assuming he decides he does want to shut it down, that is
18:03:54 <planetmaker> :-) good news
18:03:56 <Terkhen> :)
18:04:02 <lucas92> yeah, let's say I want to draw a big-ass "like a boss" string on the rail building gui
18:04:37 <planetmaker> just change the string in the lang file(s)
18:04:42 <planetmaker> ;-)
18:05:05 <planetmaker> and if you want it additonally add the string widget where appropriate
18:05:23 <planetmaker> start by playing around with one window. Try to change single, small things. See how it works
18:05:52 <lucas92> yeah
18:06:09 <Terkhen> break random stuff, look how it breaks, understand random stuff, repeat
18:06:37 <planetmaker> change widget spacing. change widget sizes, change strings, change button order, change button placement. And see indeed how nicely it fails on the first tries ;-)
18:06:39 <Belugas> and most important, get tons of coffee ready to be brewed
18:06:46 <planetmaker> don't take the newgrf gui window ;-)
18:07:09 <planetmaker> nor actually the station build window as a starter
18:07:42 <lucas92> rail_gui is fine?
18:08:13 <lucas92> the one that you choose signals and rails?
18:08:28 <Terkhen> that file has all rail related windows
18:08:39 <lucas92> cool I'll look into it
18:08:48 <Alberth> town directory is one of the simplest windows
18:09:12 <Alberth> or subsidy gui perhaps
18:10:31 <planetmaker> well, but there are no buttons. So I think like a toolbar. Or maybe the terragen_gui.cpp are good places
18:10:57 <planetmaker> hm... though the new game window is layered also... so maybe not ;-)
18:11:06 <planetmaker> :-)
18:13:10 <planetmaker> trust alberth on it. He wrote that ;-)
18:16:49 <Alberth> everything is clickable, normally non-button clicks are just ignored :p
18:17:20 <Alberth> and the town directory does have buttons to select sorting :)
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18:18:35 <planetmaker> :-) right
18:23:04 <Belugas> #Sometimes I dream about reality
18:23:12 <Belugas> # Sometimes I feel so gone
18:23:20 <Belugas> # Sometimes I dream about a wild wild world
18:24:13 <Belugas> # Hey Bobby Marley, sing something good for me
18:24:30 <Belugas> #This world is crazy, it's an emergency!
18:27:28 <SmatZ> hello
18:27:35 <SmatZ> today's xkcd is funny :)
18:32:13 <Belugas> despite my fear of sounding stupid ignorant, but wat is xkcd ?
18:32:21 <Alberth>
18:32:28 <Terkhen> a webcomic
18:32:59 <SmatZ> it's funny because it's true
18:33:48 <Terkhen> <--- this one is still one of my favourites :P
18:33:49 <SmatZ> have you ever chacked the citation link from wikipedia? :p
18:34:03 <SmatZ> :D
18:34:04 * planetmaker is surprised that there are regulars in this channel who don't know xkcd ;-)
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18:37:08 <lucas92> lol
18:37:08 <andythenorth> this xcd is better:
18:37:16 <lucas92> very funny stuff
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18:37:21 <Alberth> I like this one
18:37:27 <peter1138> oh what, setting cargo type doesn't use the translation table...?
18:37:41 <Terkhen> if you don't know xkcd I recommend reading it completely and always check the mouse over texts
18:37:55 <lucas92> lol
18:38:12 <lucas92>
18:38:15 <lucas92> awesome
18:38:33 <Alberth> Belugas: :p
18:38:50 <planetmaker> 905 is rather mediocre IMHO
18:39:48 <Alberth> online communities
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18:40:03 <andythenorth> ho
18:40:39 <Alberth> nice one :)
18:40:56 <planetmaker> hehe, yeah :-)
18:41:56 <Belugas> lol
18:41:59 <andythenorth> 905 is funnier if you have bought a house
18:42:09 <Belugas> thanks Alberth, now i know i'm very much old!
18:42:14 <andythenorth> when you first get a house, it's a bit mind blowing that you can drill anywhere
18:42:35 * Belugas loves to drill
18:42:41 <Belugas> and trash walls
18:42:57 <Belugas> and ...rebuild them up...
18:43:16 <planetmaker> quite ;-)
18:43:55 <Belugas> my prefered tool, after the hammer: epoxy glue. fixes anything my son breaks (apart legs/arms/etc)
18:44:47 <planetmaker> :-D
18:46:38 <Terkhen> how do you know? did you try? :P
18:47:08 <Belugas> hem... no?
18:47:11 <Alberth> one should use some wood and duct tape for those cases, of course
18:47:26 <Belugas> concrete, rather
18:47:32 <Belugas> sure it won't move
18:49:08 <Terkhen> :D
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18:50:57 <Belugas> funny... when we laid down the concrete over the new plumbering system, my father, brother and I put our hands on th fresh concrete. My son wanted to do teh same, but when he saw our dirty hands, he changed his mind
18:51:15 <Belugas> and called us prehistoric men ;)
18:51:31 <Belugas> my wife was laughing big time
18:51:34 <Terkhen> :D
18:52:42 <planetmaker> looool !
18:52:59 <planetmaker> you darn old fossil, you ;-) welcome to reality ;-)
18:53:14 <planetmaker> children and fools tell the truth :-P
18:53:21 <andythenorth> mine doesn't
18:53:29 <planetmaker> yet :-P
18:54:16 <Terkhen> that's a strange saying, the children I have met are usually skillful manipulators of the truth :)
18:54:47 * planetmaker hugs Belugas
18:55:00 <andythenorth> they can't handle the truth
18:55:06 <andythenorth> you can't handle the truth :P
18:55:06 <planetmaker> Terkhen: not of the truth. much more of their parents
18:56:31 <Belugas> wait til he really can talk, andythenorth :) lots of good times ahead!
18:56:42 <Belugas> and hugs and kisses
18:56:54 <Belugas> let's pass the "larva stage"
18:57:24 <andythenorth> currently he shouts incoherently
18:57:30 <andythenorth> in my ear
18:58:42 <Belugas> :)
18:58:57 <Belugas> Remember: he does not do that on purpose. he just feels bad
18:59:13 <Belugas> send it back to mom, he will feel better
18:59:16 <Belugas> muwhahahha!!
18:59:17 <Wolf01> <Belugas> let's pass the "larva stage" <- why did this reminds me "the fly"?
18:59:43 <Belugas> because you're not a dad yet :)
18:59:51 <lucas92> I'm still a student
19:00:07 <lucas92> going to university next september
19:00:17 <lucas92> electric engineer
19:01:03 <lucas92> I think it's the perfect job: you do both programming and science
19:01:08 <Wolf01> I'm not bothered to become a dad for the next 20 years
19:01:20 <lucas92> why?
19:01:35 <lucas92> I think life sucks without anyone
19:01:46 <Wolf01> don't tell me
19:03:03 <Belugas> Wolf01, i said the same before. took me a while, but now, i can't imagine life without him
19:03:14 <Belugas> good luck, lucas92
19:03:20 <Belugas> fnd simething you really like
19:03:28 <Belugas> you'll might end up doing it fora long time
19:03:35 <lucas92> yep
19:05:17 <lucas92> well, I think there will be plenty of girls anyway at the polytechnique
19:06:03 <lucas92> girls that love science are so much fun
19:06:37 <lucas92> I've never had any "barbie" friends
19:07:48 <lucas92> don't want to anyway. XD
19:08:08 <Belugas> they are nice in front of a camera :)
19:08:24 <lucas92> yeah, but they are so BOORRRINNG
19:09:47 <Belugas> i agree.
19:10:45 * planetmaker highly prefers character over model looks for anything long-term ;-)
19:11:52 <Belugas> 1/80 is long term alright
19:11:54 <Belugas> ho...
19:12:00 <Belugas> you mean...
19:12:02 <Belugas> yeh...
19:12:03 <Belugas> right
19:15:12 <lucas92> or you will end up like these guys
19:15:13 <lucas92>
19:16:22 <Belugas> no youtube at work, sorry :(
19:16:30 <lucas92> oh you're at work?
19:16:36 <lucas92> ok
19:16:38 * Belugas nods
19:18:57 <SmatZ> lucas92: what the...
19:19:03 <lucas92> XD
19:19:05 <SmatZ> that video is not sane :p
19:19:29 <lucas92> this one too
19:19:30 <lucas92>
19:19:44 <Belugas> never trust youtube at work :)
19:20:00 <Terkhen> I have seen worse :P
19:22:31 * SmatZ once again WTFs
19:26:52 <Terkhen> that's the power of the internet :P
19:27:44 <SmatZ> :)
19:30:56 <lucas92> right now I'm testing some changes with the town authority window
19:31:03 <lucas92> for now it's working good
19:31:23 <lucas92> now I'm trying to move the window to the right each time it draws
19:31:52 <lucas92> testing
19:32:11 <lucas92> also, I'll try to make a flashing string
19:32:26 <lucas92> with a static counter and color array
19:32:47 <lucas92> should be easy
19:33:24 <lucas92> btw, I don't understand why you use the keyword struct instead of class
19:33:45 <lucas92> struct feels more C
19:33:57 <lucas92> while class feels more C++
19:34:42 <lucas92> and I prefer when it says public: instead of assuming it's public
19:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but this is not about what you prefer
19:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the code style is a general agreement between all coders, everybody will have to make some compromise to keep things consistent
19:36:45 <Terkhen> lucas92: the code was originally in C, and the code is only changed if it is needed
19:36:53 <Terkhen> so I guess it was kept as struct to minimize changes
19:36:56 <Terkhen> it does not matter much anyways
19:37:02 <lucas92> ok
19:39:36 <lucas92> ok I have to call it OnTick()
19:39:54 <lucas92> so it changes each tick
19:39:57 <lucas92> hmm
19:40:22 <Alberth> biggest difference is that class defaults to private, while struct defaults to public
19:40:31 <lucas92> yes
19:41:04 <lucas92> I don't know if you can make templates with the keyword struct
19:41:18 <lucas92> template<struct T> ?
19:41:54 <Alberth> typename T or so, I think
19:41:59 <lucas92> yeah
19:42:21 <Alberth> but there are not many templates in the code, which is good
19:42:36 <planetmaker> :-) yep
19:42:43 <lucas92> they can simplify the code
19:42:49 <Alberth> on the other hand, those that does exist are way too complicated
19:43:08 <Alberth> if used well, they can, but that is unfortunately not always the case
19:43:15 <lucas92> yep
19:43:57 <Terkhen> simplify the code? check ground_vehicle.* and vehicle*
19:43:58 <Alberth> it is too easy to over-generalize
19:44:19 <Alberth> or yapf, or misc/*.hpp :)
19:44:28 <Terkhen> oh, yapf is even worse IIRC
19:46:31 <planetmaker> hehe... over-generalize
19:46:48 * planetmaker is good at that, probably
19:47:10 <Terkhen> at yapf code? :)
19:47:21 <planetmaker> nope. At trying to over-generalize things.
19:47:30 <Terkhen> :D
19:47:35 <planetmaker> the newgrf makefiles might be an example in that direction. At least I sometimes fear that
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19:53:58 <lucas92> testing the flashing strings
19:54:39 <lucas92> very funny to break OpenTTD
19:54:41 <lucas92> XD
19:55:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yapf internals are simply crazy...
19:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> a mad man coded them...
19:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody dares to touch them since
19:55:41 <lucas92> haven't look at it
19:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so much for code simplification :p
19:55:55 <lucas92> is it for path finding^
19:55:56 <lucas92> ?
19:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
19:56:05 <lucas92> ouch
19:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a "simple" A* algorithm
19:56:17 <lucas92> "simple"
19:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it abuses templates for compile-time virtualisation
19:56:53 * Alberth fears that he wants to use that code in the near future
19:56:56 <lucas92> because it would take too much time?
19:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of run-time virtualisation that NPF used, which made it very slow
19:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well "using" yapf is simple, just implement a follow_track routine and you're done
19:58:05 <Alberth> not really in my case, I want to hook a quad tree data structure into it
19:58:23 <Eddi|zuHause> for what?
19:58:31 <Alberth> faster ship path finding
19:58:40 <planetmaker> ho ho :-)
19:58:53 <Alberth> ie use a quad tree to store seas of open space
19:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like a pathfinder cache for ships?
19:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that shouldn't touch yapf internals either
20:00:14 <Alberth> not only a cache, you store path lengths like in A* only at the edges of the elementary quad trees, thus no computation of all internal paths in a single quad
20:00:26 <lucas92> meh my try doesn't work... :(
20:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but still shouldn't be more difficult than the rail cache
20:01:19 <lucas92> townviewwindow is the one that open up when clicking a town right^
20:01:26 <Alberth> perhaps you are right
20:01:40 <Alberth> right?
20:01:50 <Alberth> normally click at the town name
20:02:09 <lucas92> yeah doesn't seem to work
20:02:11 <lucas92> hmm
20:02:27 <Eddi|zuHause> might be a nice idea to do ctrl+click in the town list open the town window?
20:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> or reverse that: click open the town window, ctrl+click jump to town?
20:03:08 <Eddi|zuHause> (change from current behaviour)
20:03:47 <Terkhen> faster ship pathfinding would be awesome :)
20:03:47 <Alberth> I consider jumping to the town more useful imho
20:04:28 <Alberth> ie with a click
20:04:44 <Alberth> ctl+click for the town window should be fine though
20:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> even if you don't know ctrl, you can still jump to the town from the open town window
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20:07:53 <lucas92> ok I think I found my mistake
20:08:11 <lucas92> I need to update the flash counter in the OnTick() function
20:08:47 <planetmaker> use palette animation. Then you don't need to update
20:08:58 <planetmaker> one of the few animation colours
20:09:15 <lucas92> I'll try that after
20:09:30 <lucas92> I'm sure I can make this work anyway
20:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no 50:50 black/yellow animation, which looks odd in GermanRV busses (they have flash lights on while loading)
20:09:44 <lucas92> but there are animation colours?
20:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> only 75:25 black/yellow, or 50:50 black/red (used by the trams)
20:10:22 <lucas92> ok
20:10:41 <lucas92> I've put yellow, red, blue, purple and green
20:10:42 <lucas92> XD
20:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: there used to be a .png showing the animated colours
20:11:11 <lucas92> ok
20:11:44 <lucas92> I'm not sure if changing color each tick is too fast
20:11:45 <lucas92> XD
20:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: look at the airport or the lighthouse to see what happens for "every tick" colour change
20:12:41 <lucas92> ok I thought it was an image
20:12:44 <lucas92> animated
20:14:31 <lucas92> alright testing
20:14:58 <Belugas> mmh.. another sign you're old: still loving Dio songs
20:15:01 <Belugas> "who??"
20:15:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the water animation is also colours
20:15:22 <Belugas> "never mnd, he's dead"
20:15:41 <Alberth> lucas92: likely it is too fast, 100 times/sec is faster than your monitor
20:16:02 <lucas92> yeah I don't see the text flashing at all
20:16:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: lucas92 I suggest to have a look at
20:16:17 <planetmaker> it's quite awesome to show the possible colour translations and also animation colours
20:16:40 <planetmaker> as java programme it should work whereever
20:16:41 <Alberth> do you mark the area dirty after changing the colour?
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20:18:00 <lucas92> oh
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20:22:50 <lucas92>
20:22:59 <lucas92> I initialize my color array this way
20:23:21 <lucas92> and accessing the colour[i] index
20:24:00 <lucas92> I'll test this out
20:24:18 <Eddi|zuHause> use {} to initialize arrays
20:24:30 <lucas92> for coding style?
20:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> array literals
20:24:52 <lucas92> how you do it?
20:24:58 <lucas92> don't remember
20:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> TextColour colour[5] { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, }
20:25:32 <Eddi|zuHause> err
20:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> missing =
20:25:55 <lucas92> ok
20:25:58 <Alberth> and add a 'const' :)
20:26:35 <Alberth> and a 'static', and move the definition into the method
20:26:35 <lucas92> const TextColour *colour?
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20:26:50 <lucas92> ok
20:26:58 <Alberth> static const TextColour colours[] = { ... };
20:27:00 <planetmaker> static const TextColour colour = { ... };
20:27:09 <lucas92> yeah
20:27:24 <lucas92> ok thanks for the tips
20:27:46 <lucas92> it's building right now...
20:28:14 <Thorn_> so's the foreman
20:30:52 <lucas92> not doing anything still
20:33:03 <lucas92> I'll try to update my counter each 100 ticks
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20:36:33 <lucas92> 1 tick is 1/60 of seconds?
20:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> no, 1/33
20:38:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so 100 ticks is 3 seconds
20:38:41 <lucas92> ah
20:39:08 <lucas92> then I have no idea why it doesn't flash
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20:40:27 <lucas92> great Visual C++ crashed
20:42:24 <lucas92> I'll try on the town authority window
20:42:58 <lucas92> I've succeeded changing the colour of the cost of an action so it should work
20:50:12 <lucas92> nice it works
20:50:13 <lucas92> XD
20:51:00 <Terkhen> :)
20:54:10 <lucas92> cool
20:54:26 <lucas92> now I'm going to try moving the widget in a circle motion
20:54:33 <lucas92> hehehe
20:55:16 <lucas92> btw, debug version compile lot faster lol
20:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it skips the optimisation part
20:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> obviously that makes it faster
20:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> but it then runs way slower
21:00:22 <lucas92> is PI defined somewhere?
21:01:01 <Terkhen> why do you need PI? and probably not
21:01:41 <lucas92> I want to rotate a widget around the mouse cursor
21:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> so what do you need pi for?
21:02:12 <Yexo> lucas92: try M_PI
21:02:37 <lucas92> got to eat
21:02:44 <lucas92> see ya
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21:13:46 <Terkhen> good night
21:13:56 <Vikthor> night Terkhen
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21:18:41 <Wolf01> 'night
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21:41:27 <lucas92> how do you get the mouse position?
21:41:56 <Yexo> from where in the code?
21:42:08 <lucas92> from town_gui.cpp
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21:43:10 <Yexo> and from where in town_gui.cpp? Window::OnClick gets the position relative to the widget as argument
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21:43:50 <lucas92> from OnTick()
21:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you might want a Window::OnMouseMove
21:44:09 <lucas92> ok
21:44:30 <lucas92> I see how ok
21:45:13 <lucas92> how do you get the x and y from there?
21:46:08 <lucas92> ok nvm
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21:47:54 <lucas92> there's no OnMouseMove...
21:49:35 <lucas92> there's OnHover()
21:50:02 <lucas92> but it just execute when it's over the window
21:50:33 <lucas92> there's on MouseLoop() but no way to get the x and y
21:53:16 <Yexo> why do you need the x/y position of the mouse anyway?
21:53:40 <lucas92> to move around the cursor a widget
21:53:46 <lucas92> in a circular pattern
21:53:59 <lucas92> some tests
21:54:16 <Yexo> will that widget always stay within a particular window?
21:54:34 <lucas92> no
21:54:53 <lucas92> it is the local authority widget
21:54:56 <Yexo> so why are you trying to fit the code in a Window class?
21:55:04 <Yexo> what widget?
21:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: and if you just replace the mouse cursor? or a tooltip?
21:55:31 <Eddi|zuHause> check the measurement tooltip
21:55:52 <lucas92> measurement tooltip
21:56:30 <lucas92> how can I replace the mouse cursor?
21:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there are plenty of mouse cursor replacements in the code
21:56:54 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. while a build tool is active
21:56:56 <Eddi|zuHause> or autosave
22:03:53 <lucas92> it is in the GUI?
22:04:57 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno... you have the code open ;)
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22:05:25 <lucas92> but I can't find it
22:05:36 <lucas92> how do you find stuff in this code
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22:05:43 <Eddi|zuHause> autoreplace is triggered in date.cpp
22:05:51 <Eddi|zuHause> from there you get the right search terms
22:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> out of the top of my head there's a _do_autosave variable
22:06:34 <lucas92> ok found it for the tool tip
22:06:52 <lucas92> it's in the NWidget things
22:09:04 <lucas92> you just need to change the sprite in the NWidget declaration
22:09:08 <lucas92> that's all
22:10:40 <lucas92> oops doesn't work
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22:17:55 <fjb> The combination of YADP and FIRS is astonishingly challenging.
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22:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> need passenger reduction patch, they are too many and pay too much
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22:26:12 <lucas92> a tooltip is the yellow window right?
22:26:19 <lucas92> I think I've got this working
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22:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:27:39 <lucas92> cool
22:27:53 <lucas92> too easy XD
22:28:36 <lucas92> how do you change the image next to the mouse when you're building something?
22:28:41 <lucas92> for example, rails
22:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> which image?
22:29:02 <lucas92> you see a rail piece next to the mouse
22:29:06 <lucas92> when building rails
22:29:08 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: May be I should start with passengers.
22:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, the highlight
22:29:15 <lucas92> yeah
22:29:21 <lucas92> highlight?
22:29:22 <lucas92> ok
22:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: if you're at it: implement the trackbit-higlighting for autoroads similar to autorails ;)
22:30:23 <lucas92> autoroads?
22:30:27 <lucas92> what do you mean?
22:30:39 <lucas92> oh
22:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> autorail is the 5th button in the rail toolbar
22:30:44 <lucas92> yeah
22:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> autoroads the 3rd in the road toolbar
22:31:07 <lucas92> it isn't?
22:31:09 <Eddi|zuHause> autorail highlights exactly the trackbit that will be built, autoroads doesn't
22:31:50 <lucas92> yeah
22:31:58 <lucas92> do the sprites exist?
22:32:04 <lucas92> yes they do for sure
22:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
22:32:14 <lucas92> no
22:32:16 <lucas92> taww
22:32:18 <lucas92> aww
22:32:31 <lucas92> then how am I supposed to do?
22:32:39 <lucas92> don't know how to add sprites
22:32:42 <lucas92> :(
22:39:46 <lucas92> what is a catenary?
22:40:00 <Yexo> the electricity lines above rail track
22:40:11 <lucas92> ok
22:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause> lucas92: just pick other sprites temporarily, adding sprites later is easy
22:44:58 <lucas92> yeah, but I have a hard time to find where the sprite is added
22:45:04 <lucas92> with the highlight
22:45:11 <Eddi|zuHause> in src/table/sprites.h
22:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you need 6 sprites, 4 for each half road, and 2 for each full road
22:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> order would be best if it was the same as in src/road_type.h
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22:53:35 <lucas92> I'm not sure to understand...
22:54:52 <lucas92> ok, I'll try something
22:55:59 <lucas92> yeah I don't understand sprite.h
22:56:22 <lucas92> there are sprites for highlighting tracks on slopes
22:56:37 <lucas92> one for the rail
22:56:40 <lucas92> mono
22:56:45 <lucas92> elerail
22:56:50 <lucas92> maglev
22:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> no, those are the reservation highlights
22:57:08 <lucas92> but I don't see any for a flat land
22:57:13 <lucas92> huh?
22:57:14 <Eddi|zuHause> not the build highlights
22:57:38 <lucas92> which ones?
22:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> decode trg1r.grf or look at the opengfx repo to find out which number corresponds to which sprite
22:58:49 <lucas92> ok
22:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but the sprites you seek are probably in openttd.grf
22:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so they would be in media/extra_grf/
22:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the png files there
23:01:33 <lucas92> yeah, there is an autorail png
23:01:46 <lucas92> this could be a replacement for the road highlighting
23:01:49 <lucas92> for now
23:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well, road bits work slightly different than rail bits
23:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and if you need proper sprites, i believe i have seen some in the forum already
23:04:03 <lucas92> SPR_IMG_AUTOROAD?
23:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but the functionality is important, the sprites can be done later
23:04:10 <lucas92> that's the one to replace?
23:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's the button in the GUI
23:05:04 <lucas92> aww
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23:05:52 <lucas92> I don't see those highlight sprites
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23:11:51 <lucas92> does it have anything to do with the TileHighlightingData?
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23:13:21 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, not entirely sure
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23:14:40 <lucas92> SPR_AUTORAIL_BASE?
23:15:38 <lucas92> DrawSelectionSprite?
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23:19:34 <lucas92> anyway got to go
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23:20:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ... that sounds like the right place
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23:36:35 <V453000> hi, does anyone remember how large (if any) is the maximum area in which a lumber mill can cut trees?
23:41:20 <Yexo> a 40x40 area, so I think north tile of industry -20,-20 to north tile of industry +20,+20
23:41:46 <V453000> awesome, thanks
23:42:17 <V453000> *lumber mill heaven*
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23:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: that is an 41x41 area
23:52:46 <V453000> +-1 tile doesnt matter much :)
23:54:09 <V453000> rather interesting is that I have a lumber mill and it doesnt want to chop more than 8 tiles away from sides of the industry (not the placement tile)
23:54:22 <V453000> maybe I am just impatient :)
23:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it goes in circles around the industry and takes the first tree tile it can find. so if a new tree appears in the already chopped area, it will take that one
23:55:56 <V453000> yeah, but I would expect it to eat all of them in time :)
23:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> (i could be talking rubbish though, and i have never played with the tropical saw mill)
23:56:21 <V453000> me neither :)
23:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> in rainforest, over 200 times more trees get planted than in temperate/arctic
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23:58:54 <Mazur> You couold find out by clearing the area round the mill and them building a ring of trees on the outer edge, alternating between the 40² and 41² areas.
23:59:13 <V453000> fair point :)
23:59:19 <Mazur> If trees still get chopped, you can fill in the rest.
23:59:30 <V453000> but I rather need to know what is the largest possible area the mill can really cut down
23:59:37 * Mazur has its moments.