IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-05-27
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00:01:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i see, nforenum bails out on the undefined action 5 type...
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05:54:14 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it's missing that. As I didn't add a new action5 entry... I considered grids as GUI sprites
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07:36:31 <dihedral> i got an email from the one client - again asking for the PHP Database... :-D
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07:55:05 <dihedral> yep, and the database again with wordpress :-P
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08:27:57 <planetmaker> moin LordAro & dihedral
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08:47:21 <peter1138> i'd rather have a bowl of coco pops
09:28:40 <ChoHag> Marmite on toast for me.
09:28:55 <peter1138> banned in denmark apparently
09:29:34 <ChoHag> Bah. My wife keeps stealing my slippers.
09:35:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... fishing grounds not delivering the nearest fishing harbour is kinda silly
09:37:20 <planetmaker> given the large fishery fleets fish anywhere they like, it's not that far-fetched
09:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... it's not actually the destination, there are too few fishing harbours...
09:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> 21 fishing grounds and 3 fishing harbours on a 512x512 map
09:43:19 <Terkhen> it is realistic; for example european fishing harbours are supplied by sudanese fishing grounds
09:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but those are likely to be connected by water as well ;)
09:45:20 <Terkhen> oh, that's a good point :D
10:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: two FIRS translation issues, the hardware store doesn't have a translation, and the station name "Schmiede" misses an "e"
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11:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/20370 <-- but of course the history can tell you ;-) @ Eddi|zuHause <-- yes, i got that far, but this doesn't cover the part of extending nforenum, which throws a "fatal error" here
11:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks like gibberish...
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11:29:37 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, doesn't really matter, as i can work around that, just the makefile is useless
11:30:41 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: why gibberish? it's only a tiny change in data.cpp
11:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but it's all hex...
11:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't have a nforenum checkout anyway
11:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and i can't bother
11:31:23 <planetmaker> you would need a grfcodec checkout :-P
11:31:34 <planetmaker> it's not separate from nforenum
11:32:31 <Eddi|zuHause> completely different, in table/sprites.h there is OPENTTD_SPRITE_COUNT = 160, but what sprites does this count? after all, openttd.grf has way more sprites than that
11:32:53 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's the # of GUI sprites
11:33:06 <planetmaker> the respective action5 entry of openttd GUI sprites
11:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so it's no concern of me
11:34:42 <Eddi|zuHause> now i just need to figure out drawing
11:35:23 <planetmaker> level crossings, right?
11:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> well, most of it is already in the old patch, just the places where to apply are much different
11:35:37 <planetmaker> look in road_cmd.cpp. They're handled there - if you didn't know ;-)
11:35:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and then there's the newgrf railtypes
11:36:21 <planetmaker> there are separate functions to handle traditional and overlay. the latter is called from the first
11:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, i have read speedily over the code, and had to quickly edit out stuff like "GetRailAxis" calls
11:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but i was right now actually hunting down a crossing-un-reservation bug that was in the adjacent crossing patch as well, but it was too difficult to trigger, so i didn't bother
11:49:09 <planetmaker> so... you actually edit two patches concurrently, adjacent and diagonal level crossings? ;-)
11:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, one is on top of the other
11:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the old diagonal crossings patch had some rudimentary code to invoke two crossings at once, but it didn't work out quite as well
11:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so i replaced that part with my own patch
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12:36:51 <Terkhen> hmm... my trucks are starting to jam everywhere
12:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: something's weird, i got two towns called "Peenesee"
12:37:31 <Terkhen> why is the kilimanjaro so slow when loading/unloading?
12:41:56 <planetmaker> also the amount of 'e' seems funny ;-)
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12:49:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: more so when you have a "Peenesee Baggersee" :p
12:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but i thought the town name generator is supposed to weed out duplicates by itself
12:51:33 <planetmaker> If it doesn't, it's likely it comes up with the same name via two independent paths...
12:51:40 <planetmaker> I wonder, though, how
12:52:18 <planetmaker> It's not like it's a very complicated pattern I use: <Prefix> Part1Part2 <Postfix>
12:52:28 <planetmaker> where Prefix and Postfix are optional
12:53:01 <planetmaker> but I shall look at that
12:53:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you use random names exclusively, do you?
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12:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> worse: version 0.1.0 instead of 0.2.0
12:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what did he do now?
13:11:37 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: You scared planetmaker away.
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13:32:22 <andythenorth> say 'peenesee' in uk english - phonetically :P
13:32:30 <andythenorth> Terkhen: slow? Not sure.
13:32:40 <andythenorth> Perhaps the game should show loading speed in buy menu
13:32:58 <Terkhen> hmm... maybe it loads at the same speed than other trucks, but that is slow for its capacity
13:33:02 <andythenorth> newgrf authors put work into something most players don't know exist
13:33:14 <andythenorth> maybe I never set it accurately :P
13:33:32 <andythenorth> when the refit cost is $0, I slightly think it should be hidden
13:33:40 <andythenorth> although it will cause bug reports
13:35:44 <Terkhen> what is the relation between refit cost and loading speed?
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13:47:16 <planetmaker> sorry, Eddi|zuHause :-) mass-closing of windows closed too much. Not much changed in the name generation for random names, thus 0.1.0 or 0.2.0 doesn't make much of a difference
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13:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> say 'peenesee' in uk english - phonetically :P <-- sorry, i can't think in phonetic english
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14:00:17 <crystalblue66> www.xxxlivecam.info
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14:03:49 <Eddi|zuHause> have i suggested a filter for the load game window yet?
14:05:01 <Yexo> don't know, can't remember such a suggestion
14:10:12 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I think it's the same conotation, if you pronounce it German. But... well.
14:18:47 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, then sorry, i don't have the humour of a fourthgrader...
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15:26:20 <dihedral> planetmaker, lovely :-)
15:27:41 <planetmaker> in this case: "illegal (out of bounds) set of newgrf parameters" :-P
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15:32:01 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r22494 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix: airport preview sprite can depend on the layout, so update the cached SpriteID when the layout changes
15:40:33 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22495 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix: The layout selectors of the airport build GUI did not latch properly
16:03:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: penis-y
16:06:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r22496 /trunk/src/newgrf_airport.cpp: -Fix: callback result for airport layout name was incorrectly used
16:26:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22497 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify button handling in airport build GUI
16:28:01 <Wolf01> aren't they able to paint straight road lines?
16:37:52 <JVassie> whats a .pnfo file for?
16:38:12 <Yexo> it's a nfo file that still has to be preprocessed (usually by gpp)
16:38:43 <JVassie> and why woudl you use it instead of a normal .nfo file?
16:39:10 <JVassie> just trying to get my head around it
16:39:20 <JVassie> i fear the example you pasted for me
16:39:30 <JVassie> is too complex for me :p
16:40:49 <Yexo> did you manage to get that working at all?
16:41:13 <planetmaker> JVassie: worry about pnfo when you got nfo working. Like I suggested last night with heqs
16:41:47 <JVassie> heqs has a bunch of .pnfo files
16:41:53 <Yexo> yes, but you don't need those
16:41:56 <Yexo> as planetmaker explained last night
16:42:03 <planetmaker> JVassie: that's why I told you to use the nfo file.
16:42:04 <Yexo> you can download the preprocessed nfo file instead
16:43:01 <JVassie> was tired last night :p
16:44:49 <Yexo> that is the simplest I can make that example
16:45:17 <JVassie> ok will take a look in a sec
16:48:30 <JVassie> not an action 8 i presume?
16:48:35 <planetmaker> if something compiles chances usually are not that bad that it'll at least load ;-)
16:48:43 <Yexo> no,that's still part of the action0
16:48:48 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the quickest way to make canal building factor 8 less expensive, without affecting anything else?
16:49:05 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: a base cost grf?
16:49:11 <Yexo> -1 * 0 00 <- start of the action= action number * length action_type
16:49:17 <Yexo> action_type == 0, so it's an action 0
16:49:28 <Yexo> the next action begins when you see a * again
16:49:51 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: which one?
16:50:07 <JVassie> so in this case the next action is an action 2, righ?
16:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and which parameter?
16:50:24 <JVassie> followed by an action 3
16:51:24 <JVassie> no action 1 to define sprites?
16:51:39 <Yexo> this example only uses a few sprites from the baseset
16:52:00 <JVassie> refers to property 8, correct?
16:52:07 <JVassie> and i presume DFLT is a class of station?
16:52:24 <Yexo> 08 = property 8, which is D-word sized, so 4 bytes
16:52:33 <Yexo> "DFLT" is exactly 4 bytes, that's the value of the property
16:53:04 <JVassie> -1 * 0 00 04 \b3 \b1 00
16:53:34 <Yexo> feature 4, modifies 3 properties, modifies 1 station, first id to modify is 0
16:54:07 <JVassie> generic action 0 stuff, i should knwo that :p
16:54:31 <JVassie> for example instead of \b3 i couldve used just 03 yeh?
16:54:55 <Yexo> when you use values above 10 it's easier to read though
16:55:17 <JVassie> unless you have a hex to dec calculator handy :p
16:55:29 <JVassie> i see what you mean though
16:55:43 <Yexo> even when you have one handy it's easier not to have to calculate it
16:55:44 <planetmaker> JVassie: it's not a matter of _writing_.
16:55:55 <planetmaker> It's a matter of understanding at a glance what you wrote 4 weeks ago
16:56:18 <JVassie> so then 09 02, property 9 which defines sprite layout, and 2 tiles
16:57:00 <JVassie> in this case layouts mean direction or?
16:57:00 <Yexo> both tiles only have a groundsprite and no spritedata
16:57:18 <Yexo> a layout is a combination of sprites which to draw on a single tile
16:57:53 <Yexo> for chips there is for example a layout "rail tile without buffers", another "rail tile with buffers on north end", another "rail tile with buffers on south end", etc.
16:58:06 <Yexo> that is a magic groundtile number
16:58:15 <Yexo> it actually draws the correct railsprite
16:58:28 <Yexo> don't try to find that in the documentation, you won't :p
16:58:52 <JVassie> how would i modify this example to a very basic piece of platform and put it ingame, essentially?
16:59:10 <Yexo> to put it in-game just add an action8 at the top
16:59:23 <JVassie> take for example that bit of platform in the picture
16:59:27 <Yexo> to add some other sprites use the example I gave yesterday
17:00:39 <JVassie> so take the example we had just now, to compile it needs no other files at all? just the nfo?
17:01:02 <JVassie> just writing an action 8
17:01:46 <Yexo> -1 * 0 08 07 "GRFID_HERE" "your grf name" 00 "your description" 00
17:02:10 <JVassie> to make it obvious it is to be renumbered?
17:02:23 <Yexo> doesn't mather what you fill in there as nforenum will correct it
17:02:33 <Yexo> exactly, -1 is an obvious dummy value
17:02:41 <Yexo> same reason I use 0 for <length>
17:03:01 <JVassie> 07 is latest version now?
17:03:04 <Yexo> be back later, good luck getting it to work :)
17:04:47 <JVassie> thanks for your help Yexo
17:05:17 <JVassie> NFO file missing header lines and version info
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17:07:48 <JVassie> next problem, OTTD doesnt pick it up in the list of newgrfs
17:16:37 <Eddi|zuHause> <JVassie> NFO file missing header lines and version info <-- nforenum will fill those in for you
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17:24:50 <Yexo> <JVassie> next problem, OTTD doesnt pick it up in the list of newgrfs <- start openttd with -d grf=5 and look at the output
17:24:55 <Yexo> if that doesn't work, try -d grf=9
17:45:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22498 /trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt:
17:45:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:13 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by Gavin
17:45:47 <JVassie> Yexo, you mean start it from the command line?
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17:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in the parameter gui, when you click a disabled [<] button, it still animates the pressed state.
17:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> also small suggestion: when newgrf developer tools is active, have ctrl+click on set parameter open the text window for typing in parameters, even if action 14 defines them
17:51:36 <Yexo> double-click already opentd that text window
17:51:53 <Yexo> IIRC it's not dependent on the newgrf developer tools setting, but I'm not sure about that
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17:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, for each single parameter individually. but not all parameters in one window, like before
17:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and it should better be single click
17:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> makes it more consistent with the settings
17:54:29 <Yexo> single click selects them to show the description in the panel
17:54:38 <Yexo> you can't "select" an advanced setting
18:02:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r22499 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp newgrf_gui.cpp): -Fix: don't lower the arrow buttons in the newgrf/AI parameter windows if they're clicked when disabled
18:04:05 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: I don't see a reason why the old method for setting newgrf parameters should still be available
18:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> for quickly setting lots of parameters?
18:05:27 <Yexo> quit game, edit config file, start game again
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18:22:21 <JVassie> Yexo, what outptu am i looking for?
18:23:56 <Yexo> any lines that contain the name of your grf
18:24:20 <Yexo> well, what do those two lines say?
18:25:19 <JVassie> hmm they got overwritten
18:25:51 <JVassie> i guess its easier to test if i dotn have any other grfs in my directory
18:27:51 <JVassie> is there a reason you think that it wont load in ottd yexo?
18:28:10 <Yexo> if I would know why it doesn't load I'd have told you
18:29:04 <JVassie> grf=9 is still running output
18:29:23 <Yexo> can you pastebin the complete nfo?
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18:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 21164/74/7
18:37:39 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 40.8571428571
18:37:53 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (21164/74/7-40)*74
18:37:53 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 63.4285714286
18:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc (21164/74/7-40)*74*7
18:39:05 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 21608/74/7
18:39:05 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 41.7142857143
18:40:43 * andythenorth seeks a train set
18:40:50 <andythenorth> and only finds UKRS 2 or NARS 2
18:41:32 <andythenorth> am I missing another good one?
18:52:04 <Alberth> I'd recommend the default set, but I don't know whether that qualifies as 'good' to you
18:52:50 <fjb> UKRS 2 is not complete yet.
18:53:10 <Alberth> completeness was not a criterium :p
18:53:33 <fjb> But it helps to make it a good one.
18:54:08 <fjb> What happened to the french set?
18:55:42 <fjb> And a german set was also started, but I fear MB scared them away.
19:00:39 <Terkhen> and the spain set is on a standstill :(
19:01:19 <Yexo> first pseudosprite is missing
19:01:31 <Yexo> add -1 * 0 00 00 00 00 before the action8
19:02:04 <Yexo> the first sprite must contain the total number of sprites, but openttd just ignores the content of the first sprite
19:02:19 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: you mean the guys that made sprites awfully close to MBs and then claimed they didn't copy them?
19:02:20 <Yexo> currently your action8 is the first sprite which is ignored, hence openttd doesn't find any action8
19:02:54 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: May be, but how different will the sprites look at that scale?
19:03:24 <andythenorth> Alberth: default set lacks FIRS support
19:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: 256^(32*12) is an extremely high number :p
19:04:02 <Alberth> andythenorth: there is old wagons new cargos, and the opengfx train extension
19:04:40 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: A pink 01 would not look quite right...
19:05:06 <JVassie> how easy is it to change the name of the station tile i added?
19:05:20 <andythenorth> just change it :)
19:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: still, each "genuine" artist has his very own style regarding choice of colours and shading
19:05:35 <Yexo> just add a single action4
19:06:40 <JVassie> -1 * 0 04 04 01 01 00 "Name of Station Tile" 00
19:07:11 <Yexo> language id should be 7F
19:07:11 <JVassie> 01 for 1 string to change
19:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: so even if you only count variations of 4 colours that might be "similar", that leaves you with 4^(32*12), which is still an extremely large number
19:07:44 <Yexo> always use 7F first and more specific IDs for translations
19:07:58 <JVassie> and is the last bit ok?
19:08:19 <JVassie> ill plonk that in now
19:08:36 <Yexo> to set a new station name you have to use 0xC5xx as id
19:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: also there was this guy who made a "prussian rail set", but he stopped after 2 engines, even though everybody (including MB) encouraged him to go on
19:09:28 <Yexo> it'll become like this: -1 * 0 04 04 FF 01 00 C5 "station name" 00
19:10:02 <JVassie> has to have C5 after the id
19:10:11 <JVassie> should ti come after the action 3?
19:10:19 <Yexo> you can replace "00 C5" with \wxC500 if you want to
19:10:33 <fjb> Yes, but I don't think we can talk Andy or Pikka into starting another big set...
19:10:35 <Yexo> after the action0, doesn't matter if it's before or after the action3
19:10:46 <Yexo> at least not for openttd, no idea what ttdpatch requires
19:10:47 <JVassie> lets see how we do :p
19:12:21 <JVassie> ear to ear grin right now >.<
19:13:03 <JVassie> so i guess the next step is adding my own sprites in, would you say?
19:14:34 <JVassie> ill compare the two examples you gave me
19:14:51 <JVassie> if i use the second example and add the files in
19:14:57 <JVassie> should work if i keep the action 8 yeah?
19:15:56 * andythenorth needs to adjust FIRS
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19:18:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: question about industry numbers at map gen
19:18:26 <JVassie> Error: Encountered invalid character looking for literal byte. While readign sprite:2
19:18:37 <andythenorth> when some industries aren't available yet, will the game generate more of other types?
19:18:40 <andythenorth> (I think it does)
19:19:26 <andythenorth> makes adjusting the probability hard
19:19:36 <Alberth> ie the program does not know when an industry becomes available afaik, it could be decades away
19:20:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'm not sure what the correct solution would be
19:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: TILE_TEST_1 needs ""?
19:20:48 <Alberth> ditch the current newgrf industry stuff? :p
19:20:56 <Yexo> JVassie: replace TILE_TEST_1 by 00
19:21:02 <Yexo> it occurs twice in the code
19:21:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: and just use default industries?
19:21:41 <JVassie> guess thats a reference from part of the .pnfo system?
19:22:06 <Yexo> yep, there was a "#define TILE_TEST_1 00" in another file, which made gpp replace it automatically
19:22:14 <Yexo> that's very nice if you ever want to change the id
19:22:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: you want a more dynamic probability, I'd like more control over when an industry closes
19:22:20 <Yexo> you only have to change it in a single location
19:22:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: I am sure there are more problems :)
19:22:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: what control over closure would you want?
19:23:17 <JVassie> i added the action 4 in from previous nfo
19:24:10 <Alberth> The game should control opening/closing imho, the program has the overview
19:24:20 <JVassie> one problem, it only appears in the / direction, not the \ direction
19:25:15 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'd gladly take that suggestion
19:25:41 <Alberth> or even just allow hinting, ie now you cannot get rid of 'old' industries
19:26:02 <Yexo> JVassie: yes, I only coded it for the / direction
19:26:08 <andythenorth> I am bored of trying to control closure
19:26:13 <andythenorth> it's non-solvable with newgrf
19:26:29 <JVassie> now to understand what the code does :D
19:26:34 <Yexo> there are 8 layouts in the code, the odd layouts are for the / direction, the even layouts for the \ direction
19:26:38 <Alberth> JVassie: the other direction is left as an exercise for you :p
19:26:45 <andythenorth> and I am not going to try and tweak probability-at-map-gen anymore because the results vary by date too much
19:26:47 <Yexo> I grouped the layouts in groups of 2 (so 1 /, 1\)
19:26:58 <Yexo> every second layout has only a groundsprite followed by 80 (=end of layout)
19:27:05 <Alberth> andythenorth: that sounds like a sane decision
19:27:17 <andythenorth> Alberth: it means FIRS sucks though
19:27:30 <andythenorth> whatever date I start, I get a sucky industry distribution
19:28:03 <Alberth> the best you can do probably is do it 'right' for one start date
19:28:25 <Alberth> but then it is a matter of time until the counts are off again, perhaps
19:28:30 <andythenorth> ok, FIRS starts in 1880, because that's when I start :P
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19:28:56 <andythenorth> ^ randomness is not always good for generating good game effects
19:29:24 <andythenorth> 15 theatres in one town at game start
19:29:29 <Alberth> we must spend a fortune on culture :p
19:29:49 <andythenorth> it's pretty common
19:30:15 <Alberth> I doubt house distribution got much attention
19:30:44 <Alberth> and so did the fios.* code recently :p
19:30:46 <andythenorth> especially pre-1930
19:30:51 <Alberth> too much C oriented :)
19:31:08 <JVassie> Yexo, next question I guess, how do i determine the offsets and extents?
19:31:16 <JVassie> counting the pixels in MS paint?
19:31:31 <Yexo> than see if it worked and adjust if they're incorrect
19:31:38 <Yexo> press ctrl+b in game to see the bounding boxes
19:31:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: that sounds logical, as the houses are probably balanced for starting in 1950
19:31:59 <andythenorth> JVassie: use the newgrf developer tools to align them better
19:31:59 <Yexo> (and yes, that's boring and a lot of work)
19:32:08 <Yexo> it's one of the worst jobs of writing nfo code imo
19:32:16 <andythenorth> there's a sprite picker + aligner
19:32:40 <JVassie> i was going to first try adding the other direction
19:32:58 <Yexo> in that case you can swap the x and y extends
19:33:13 <Yexo> not sure if that'll work for all offsets too
19:33:21 <andythenorth> why did I add ironworks to FIRS? It's stupid
19:33:43 <JVassie> there is no \ direction for the paltform
19:33:52 <Yexo> I drew the / one in paint
19:34:00 <Yexo> I'm sure you can do the other direction :p
19:34:27 <JVassie> ive noticed some of the graphics, the blue boundign boxes extend
19:34:31 <JVassie> past the edge of the sprite
19:35:00 <Yexo> you can convert all the white to blue if you want
19:35:38 <Yexo> only the offsets and sizes in the nfo matter, those lines: -1 sprites/graphics/groundtiles.png 10 10 09 31 64 -31 0
19:35:57 <Yexo> if you use the -c parameter with grfcodec it'll strip any extra blue anyway
19:37:44 <JVassie> i flipped the sprite and put it underneath
19:38:09 <Yexo> the extra blue is there because the blue boxes are the same for several sprites. Some of the sprites are bigger than others so the boxes are made to accommodate the largest sprites
19:38:30 <Yexo> to make it easier for myself I used the same offsets/sizes in the real sprite definitions
19:38:48 <Yexo> normally that would make the filesize of the final grf somewhat bigger since all the extra blue would be encoded in the grf
19:39:00 <Yexo> hence the -c flag for grfcodec, which makes grfcodec strip the extra blue where it can
19:39:24 <Yexo> total result: less work because there were less cases where I had to try and figure out the correct offset, same grf filesize
19:39:24 <JVassie> so offset is the distance..?
19:39:53 <JVassie> the first sprite you defined
19:39:56 <Yexo> from the top middle of the tile
19:40:24 <JVassie> top left makes more sense i guess
19:40:53 <Yexo> note that the real sprites also have an offset
19:41:03 <Yexo> -1 sprites/graphics/groundtiles.png 10 10 09 31 64 -31 0 <- the -31 is the x-offset
19:41:12 <Yexo> so 0 + -31 = -31 xoffset
19:41:18 <andythenorth> x and y in game are rotated
19:41:20 <Yexo> middle = 31, so aligned to left
19:41:52 <andythenorth> (x and y are rotated sometimes is more accurate)
19:42:43 <JVassie> the offsets arent from the edge of the file?
19:43:18 <Yexo> I can't explain that very well
19:43:32 <Yexo> just play with the value a bit and see for yourself what the results are
19:44:57 <JVassie> think im looking at the wrong thing
19:45:28 <JVassie> 00 00 00 // x/y/z offset
19:45:28 <JVassie> 10 05 04 // x/y/z extent
19:45:33 <JVassie> is what im looking at
19:46:04 <JVassie> -1 sprites/groundtiles.png 10 10 09 31 64 -31 0
19:46:04 <JVassie> -1 sprites/groundtiles.png 80 10 09 31 64 -31 0
19:46:04 <JVassie> -1 sprites/buffer.png 10 06 09 35 64 -31 -4
19:46:04 <JVassie> -1 sprites/buffer.png 80 10 09 31 64 -31 0
19:46:37 <Yexo> both of these lines contain offsets
19:47:03 <Yexo> the first lines (<JVassie> 00 00 00 // x/y/z offset) are for the bounding box
19:47:03 <ChoHag> Heh. I've been playing with a pointless half million loan for over 50 years...
19:47:05 <JVassie> i guess the first 'set' i pasted refer to offsets within the boundign box, whilst the second 'set' refer to offsets in the sprite file?
19:47:12 <Yexo> you can see the bounding boxes when you press ctrl+b
19:47:42 <JVassie> as the file was originally though
19:47:45 <Yexo> not an offset "within the bounding box", but an offset "off the bounding box"
19:48:04 <JVassie> surely it needs 3 sprites from within the buffers.png file?
19:48:19 <JVassie> unless the buffer sprites are same at both ends?
19:48:26 <JVassie> heh which they are :p
19:49:07 <Yexo> for that I also drew a very simple (and very ugly) buffer
19:49:14 <JVassie> looks good enough to me mate ;)
19:49:18 <Yexo> later andy has drawn some nicer looking buffers which differ per side
19:50:02 <Yexo> this was the original file
19:50:20 <JVassie> i have the one off the repository
19:51:10 <Yexo> but the locations of the sprites haven't changed, so the later versions will work fine
19:51:14 <JVassie> right worked out xpos and ypos in paint
19:54:05 <JVassie> well, xrel and yrel particularly
19:55:01 <JVassie> well -31 4 for the platform, -31 0 for the buffer
19:56:37 <JVassie> cant see how the -31 and 4 are got though
19:57:12 <JVassie> These two numbers will probably become the bane of your existence.
19:57:12 <JVassie> TTD stores a single point for every sprite. xrel and yrel specify how far right and down (respectively) to go from the TTD point to the upper-left hand corner of the sprite.
19:57:12 <JVassie> Halving xsize and ysize and negating the results produces a decent starting point for these values, and further adjustments may be done manually, with NFOEditor, or (in TTDPatch 2.0.1 alpha 69 and later) with the GRFAuthorHelperWindow.
19:57:55 <JVassie> ill keep -31 4 for the other direction and see what it looks like :p
19:58:43 <Yexo> the sprite aligned is very useful for correcting those
19:58:49 <Yexo> andy linked to it earlier
20:10:06 <ashledombos> hello, it seems i have many problems with my wiki account it always says me i have no messages, i don't receive any notification since january, my page appears as empty even though it's not
20:10:24 <ashledombos> does it bother if i recreate a new account ?
20:10:51 <ashledombos> correction: it always says me i have "new" messages
20:11:30 <Yexo> ashledombos: nobody will care if you create a second account to test with
20:14:19 <ashledombos> i don't remember there was one :)
20:19:01 <Yexo> it's been there for 2 years or so now
20:29:46 <JVassie> ill fiddle with the xrel and yrel till it looks right Yexo
20:29:53 <JVassie> what about the other set of offsets?
20:29:59 <JVassie> <JVassie> 00 00 00 // x/y/z offset
20:29:59 <JVassie> <JVassie> 10 05 04 // x/y/z extent
20:31:53 <andythenorth> can't play a yacd game without new trucks
20:33:13 <Alberth> the old ones are worn out
20:33:41 <andythenorth> they're all too big
20:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/doc_road_trackbits.diff <-- anyone interested? [there should be no functional change, if i made it correctly]
20:34:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what does it do? :)
20:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing, that's the point :p
20:35:16 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: how many warnings does it cause if you replace the "byte" with the appropiate enum?
20:35:51 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: 'doc' tends to include doxygen docs :p
20:36:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: hm, may be mislabelled then :p
20:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i see none
20:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: updated the diff with that change
20:39:44 <SmatZ> I always wonder if it's better to use TrackBits or TrackBitsByte
20:40:19 <SmatZ> probably TrackBits is better :)
20:40:39 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i thought the byte stuff was only for map-array-like stuffing
20:41:19 <peter1138> it is, but if it turned out more efficient to use it everywhere, why not?
20:41:41 <peter1138> anyone done ViV yet?
20:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles in vehicles ;)
20:42:32 <peter1138> i was thinking of "PiP"
20:42:41 <peter1138> which is equally silly to remember
20:43:57 <JVassie> vehicles in vehicles, like automobile carriers? or?
20:44:30 <andythenorth> someone showed me some procedural minecraft stuff today
20:44:50 <andythenorth> he's got some kind of console that means he can execute stuff defined in javascript routines
20:44:56 <andythenorth> to build bricks and crap
20:45:00 * andythenorth considers minecraft
20:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: trucks on ferries, trucks on wagons, containers on wagons, shunting...
20:45:29 <JVassie> shunting particularly
20:45:40 <JVassie> the ability to break/join trains would be awesome
20:49:50 <JVassie> Cannot read true colour PNG files..
20:50:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, must convert it to an indexed one first
20:50:39 <JVassie> cant do it using MS paint i presume?
20:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea. you need to be careful. you need a reduced original palette, without the "magic" colours (for palette animation), otherwise you get flashing pixels where they don't belong
20:53:11 * JVassie wonders how Yexo does it
20:53:29 <peter1138> most people start off with the correct palette and draw with that
20:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is the way better approach ;)
20:54:06 <JVassie> the .png file worked originally
20:54:20 <JVassie> and now it doesnt work :p
20:54:27 <peter1138> paint is... not the best tool
20:55:19 <JVassie> your preferred choice?
20:55:50 <ashledombos> Yexo: great, my new account works perfectly
20:55:59 <ashledombos> i think i will stay with it
20:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> gimp can do properly (but needs a setting like "don't remove unused colours")
20:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> also people have said they use Paint.NET, but i don't know that one
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21:02:48 <andythenorth> could auto-replace / upgrade preserve the cargo-subtype?
21:02:53 <andythenorth> it's sad that it doesn't
21:03:17 <andythenorth> or is there no way to match subtypes between vehicles
21:06:37 <ashledombos> mm sure it can be hacked
21:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> he's of the impatient kind
21:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> autoreplace already does try to keep cargo subtype
21:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (by comparing the name)
21:07:37 <ashledombos> Eddi|zuHause: i did not read that in manual :)
21:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> might not be in 1.1
21:09:13 <ashledombos> if it does, i will add this information in the wiki, if it doesn't already exist
21:09:38 <Terkhen> autoreplace with subtypes fails with HEQS trams IIRC
21:10:05 <Terkhen> they are always replaced to the subtype with less cargo capacity
21:10:08 <frosch123> the grf needs to use the same textids for the subtypes
21:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the names are not identical
21:10:21 <Terkhen> so it is a bug in HEQS?
21:10:53 <frosch123> and i think that stuff is already 1.0
21:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> they are like "40t in 4 wagons" for one and "80t in 4 wagons" for the other
21:11:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it would work if they were like "short" "medium" "long"
21:12:09 <frosch123> well, then there is not even a proper answer to what version autoreplace should pick
21:13:02 <frosch123> why should it replace a 40t thingie with a 80t thingie
21:13:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, maybe one needs to rethink the scheme
21:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> at that point, andythenorth usually request rv-wagons :p
21:20:14 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22500 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h fios_gui.cpp): -Doc: Fix and add fios doxygen documentation.
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21:34:27 <Cyberdot> can someone tell me to how much real time corresponde a day in openttd at normal speed?
21:34:35 <Cyberdot> it's exactly one second or so?
21:34:46 <Alberth> about 2.5 seconds iirc
21:36:11 <Cyberdot> and for vehicles, there's any measure to see how far they go? i mean, does a vehicle travel, say, 2 tiles in 1 second at 50km/h?
21:37:12 <Cyberdot> i'm not including deacceleration and other variables like that
21:37:13 <Rubidium> see game mechanics on the wiki
21:37:36 <Cyberdot> eheh, thx, forgot about that :P
21:42:53 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22501 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fios.cpp): -Codechange: Move FileExists to a better place.
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21:57:37 <Cyberdot> "A tile is, for vehicle speed purposes 664.|216| km-ish". is |216| a modulus?
21:58:08 <Cyberdot> i mean, why does 664 multiplies with 216?
21:58:19 <Cyberdot> or that dot is not multiplication?
22:01:44 <Cyberdot> that makes more sense now
22:01:45 <Rubidium> the idea is that it's 664.21621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621621...
22:02:06 <Eddi|zuHause> very odd number ;)
22:02:21 <Cyberdot> oh! i know that expression as 664,(216). at least that's how i learned in math
22:02:43 <Eddi|zuHause> here they teach to overline it, but that's difficult with computers
22:03:10 <Yexo> but than again, even basic number formatting differs per region
22:03:30 <Cyberdot> i thought it was a modulus xD and that was weird moduling a positive number
22:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think modulus means what you think it dus
22:04:30 <Terkhen> we used overline here too
22:05:44 <Cyberdot> maybe i'm using the incorrect word. i mean the operator used in math to turn a negative number in a positive one
22:06:37 <Cyberdot> or something like that
22:06:47 <Cyberdot> you see it in calculators as abs()
22:06:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's the one
22:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> modulus is something entirely different
22:07:04 <Rubidium> so if 664.(216) is a more common notation, please change it to that as I assume you can't easily overline it in wiki
22:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say "664.216 (period 216)"
22:07:51 <Eddi|zuHause> makes it more explicit what is meant
22:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> any notation can be misinterpreted
22:10:17 <Cyberdot> you could do it as 216216216...
22:10:34 <Cyberdot> i think other ppl would understand what that means
22:11:28 <Cyberdot> i changed it to my notation, thought
22:30:40 <Cyberdot> why does subspeed have 256 different values?
22:31:23 <Yexo> because it is byte-sized
22:32:47 <Cyberdot> i understood that part, but shouldn't subspeed be a single value composed by the calculations done during the vehicle travel?
22:33:36 <Eddi|zuHause> subspeed is like the fractional position between grid positions
22:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets added until it overflows
22:34:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and then the vehicle advances
22:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> (or i may be completely wrong)
22:35:25 <Yexo> you're describing "progress", not "subspeed"
22:35:34 <Yexo> subspeed is the fractional part of the speed
22:37:18 <Cyberdot> oh! i understood now. it's limited to a byte for those numbers who have infinite decimal digits
22:38:18 <Yexo> hmm, sorry eddi, you might be right
22:38:32 <Yexo> the wiki and the doxygen documentation are not in sync
22:41:41 <Yexo> looks like the wiki (and so also eddi) is wrong, what is called "subspeed" at the wiki is actually stored in the variable "progress"
22:41:51 <Yexo> the "subspeed" variable really is the fractional part of the speed
22:41:59 <Yexo> although I'm not sure if that also holds for aircraft
22:46:00 <Cyberdot> so the formula is not with subspeed but with progress?
22:46:31 <Yexo> check the code if you want to be sure
22:46:48 <Cyberdot> where is the code stored in ubuntu systems?
22:47:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: ah, that might explain why the code never made any sense to me :p
22:47:39 <Yexo> Cyberdot: if you install openttd via the package manager you probably don't have the source code yet
22:54:31 <Cyberdot> gah! can't find the header who specifies the speed
22:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> this drawing code is weird...
22:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it seems totally over-elaborate
22:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and is full of magic numbers
22:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_crossings_r5911_drawing_part.diff <-- if anyone can shed some light on this, please tell me
23:00:14 <Cyberdot> as Yexo said, wiki describes progress where subspeed is mentioned
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23:34:57 <JVassie> getting an error with my additional graphics
23:35:04 <JVassie> that it doesnt support true colour pngs
23:35:11 <JVassie> how do you get around it?
23:36:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought we already established "don't edit your sprites with paint" as the proper solution?
23:36:41 <JVassie> but apparently Yexo drew the exisitng sprites in paint
23:36:47 <JVassie> so somehow he got around the issue :)
23:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you must somehow convince it to not forget the palette
continue to next day ⏵
