IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-05-22
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06:57:33 <pikka> I'm 12 and what is this
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07:44:59 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 14 hours, 18 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
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07:58:53 <andythenorth> if vehicles-in-vehicles got done, I should draw a landing craft
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10:12:44 <SigHunter> when compiling openttd, it tells me it cant find lzma. i then choose the amd64 linux generic build rather than compiling it on my own, does this one have lzma then? does it statically have lzma or does it look for it too and not find it and just doesnt use it?
10:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the generic binary has (almost) everything statically linked
10:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and to install lzma you might have to install packages like "lzma2-devel" or "xz-devel"
10:15:38 <SigHunter> do you know which one is the right one for ubuntu?
10:18:27 <SigHunter> thought i installed that
10:18:49 <SigHunter> anyway, cant do it myself, not root on that server
10:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can check your package manager whether something is installed even if you are not root
10:20:30 <SigHunter> ubuntu, never used it :X
10:20:52 <peter1138> dpkg -l | grep lzma
10:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds right, maybe your version is too low?
10:23:34 <SigHunter> version of ttd or lzma?
10:23:46 <Eddi|zuHause> might check for 5.0 instead of 4.999-beta
10:24:31 <SigHunter> kk ill ask the serverowner later to install 5.0, maybe that works then
10:24:51 <peter1138> is pkg-config installed?
10:25:19 <peter1138> config.lib doesn't check for version
10:26:21 <SigHunter> nope its not installed
10:26:34 <SigHunter> dpkg -l | grep pkg-config doesn't list it
10:28:30 <peter1138> that's probably it then
10:33:47 * peter1138 ponders attacking the landscape generator again
10:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> byte delete_ctr; ///< Delete counter. If greater than 0 then it is decremented until it reaches 0; the waypoint is then is deleted. <-- hm, i can find no code supporting this comment
10:34:37 <peter1138> also, the town generator should probably avoid placing towns on tiny islands
10:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> add a check for town placement that a 5x5 area must be free?
10:35:45 <peter1138> if (!st->IsInUse() && ++st->delete_ctr >= 8) {
10:35:52 <peter1138> so yeah, out of date comment
10:36:22 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that would prevent coastal towns
10:36:50 <Rubidium> even worse... counter used for multiple things ;)
10:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: "3 tiles away from coast"?
10:37:27 <Eddi|zuHause> my observation is that if a tile is water, it moves the town center towards the nearest coast
10:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so you get more coastal cities anyway
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10:54:33 <andythenorth_> peter1138: I like the small island towns :)
10:54:42 <andythenorth_> small ferries ftw
10:54:56 <andythenorth_> although the town growth bug tends to destroy them when they're serviced :(
10:55:44 <peter1138> how small are you talking? :p
10:58:05 <andythenorth_> small island town is 15-60 inhabitants?
10:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> a road and a church: 0 population :p
10:58:50 <peter1138> bah, i should've reduced the number of towns & industries on this map
10:59:05 <peter1138> with 70% water, it's a bit crowded
11:00:14 <SpComb> havn't evaluated YACD thingie yet
11:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> now's the right time ;)
11:04:26 <peter1138> yeah, i just started a new map
11:05:08 <peter1138> hmm, there are two public YACD servers
11:05:15 <peter1138> mine isn't not the openttdcoop one, heh
11:06:30 <SpComb> a little worried about what will happen to cd now, though :(
11:06:39 <peter1138> yikes, they still use nasty presignal layouts instead of simple pbs
11:06:59 <peter1138> cd's been made obsolete by mp3
11:07:08 <SpComb> rule #1: do not visit random public servers
11:07:19 <peter1138> openttdcoop isn't that random
11:07:28 <peter1138> but yeah, i should remember that they don't do things the best way
11:08:00 <SpComb> then they've probably figure out that presignals use less CPU time and let them build 23.5% bigger maps, as measured statistically
11:08:52 <peter1138> also they've only used trains
11:09:25 <peter1138> and only coal, grain and livestock is transported
11:10:14 <andythenorth_> with private editions of FISH :P
11:10:41 <peter1138> i could be persuaded
11:10:56 <andythenorth_> I have baby interruptions at 2 min intervals
11:10:58 <SpComb> played over 3G on a train?
11:11:01 <andythenorth_> lack of pause will hurt me :P
11:12:08 <andythenorth_> the town growth bug is annoying
11:12:15 <andythenorth_> can anyone replicate?
11:12:29 <andythenorth_> 1. pick a small town with high population, near coast or on island
11:12:29 <peter1138> what town growth bug?
11:13:11 <andythenorth_> 2. service with ships
11:13:17 <andythenorth_> 3. watch town population rapid fally
11:13:25 <andythenorth_> this is for games starting around 1880
11:13:30 <andythenorth_> where most of buildings are 'Flats'
11:13:40 <andythenorth_> they get rebuilt into smaller buildings or theatres
11:13:53 <andythenorth_> the effect with buses is much less pronounced
11:13:56 <peter1138> well, you took their population away ;p
11:14:14 <andythenorth_> stupid theatres :P
11:17:54 <andythenorth_> I am rewarded for good service by mass exodus
11:17:56 <peter1138> are they default houses?
11:18:17 <andythenorth_> I never use house sets
11:18:27 * andythenorth_ might have to write a house set to correct this :(
11:18:46 <andythenorth_> it's probably not a bug, probably a valid side effect of town expansion :(
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11:28:30 <Terkhen> maybe it is a difference between "houses built during random generation" and "houses built in 1880"
11:29:27 <andythenorth_> I wonder if the 'problem' is the choice of houses at map generation
11:29:33 <andythenorth_> rather than the random
11:29:46 <andythenorth_> good service increases chance of house rebuilding?
11:30:15 <andythenorth_> towns are a PITA anyway, with statue spam etc
11:32:58 * andythenorth_ back to beautifying boats
11:36:27 <Eddi|zuHause> why can't one move his own statue?
11:40:03 <planetmaker> you donated it to the town ;-)
11:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> was annoying enough in TTO when you couldn't move your HQ
11:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> that was changed, so why not the statues?
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11:58:59 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: anybody was last seen in #openttd 2 minutes and 28 seconds ago: <anybody> hello
12:04:45 <Alberth> he seems to say 'hi' or 'hello' only :p
12:08:18 <nicfer> I'd like to see a large-scale citybuilding mode in ottd where towns can build houses inside large grids like 7x7, and houses population rescaled so for the same amount of inhabitants the city needs to be like 7 times bigger
12:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you can adjust the road grid width by modifying the code
12:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and the house population by newgrf
12:09:46 <Eddi|zuHause> then make most city houses 2x2 or 2x1
12:11:52 <nicfer> then generate a very flat world with no industries and make trains expensiver and high-capacity pax wagons
12:13:04 <nicfer> I shall try to create a newgrf with some new trains
12:16:38 <nicfer> notepad is alright to do some nfo coding?
12:18:34 <Alberth> technically sure, but almost any other editor is better :)
12:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> real programmers use a butterfly
12:22:48 <Alberth> but unlike in some hollywood stories, that only influences the weather :p
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12:26:53 <andythenorth> nicfer wouldn't it be better to use nml?
12:28:10 <andythenorth> where is there a intro to nml?
12:28:26 <Eddi|zuHause> in the grf technical forum?
12:28:47 <planetmaker> intro is relative. But there's the NML thread in the technical forum indeed
12:29:01 <nicfer> oh I just saw it on the wiki
12:29:45 <nicfer> also, didn't ttdalter featured a 'export to newgrf' function?
12:30:44 <planetmaker> if you have never programmed a newgrf before, nml might be easier indeed
12:31:16 <planetmaker> but it offers - as most programming languages - no GUI interface, but requires an editor. E.g. unlike grfmaker
12:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> oh great... "terrorists" will get "virtual bombs"...
12:32:38 <nicfer> I know the basics of text based coding
12:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's an improvement of the "abstract danger" that was previously the reason for all the "anti-terror" surveillance
12:33:06 <nicfer> I think I even made some nfo tries
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14:10:54 <andythenorth> drawing boat hull shapes is very hard :P
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14:22:26 <LordAro> i would've thought that you would be well practised by now :p
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14:35:03 <Alberth> but the quality standard also gets higher as you get more experience :)
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14:54:52 <andythenorth_> most of the FISH hulls are rendered then painted over
14:54:58 <andythenorth_> I have no render for this one
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16:37:59 * andythenorth ponders adjusting FISH refits
16:43:58 <peter1138> this cargo starting and ending at the same station issue is frustrating :p
16:45:52 <andythenorth> I didn't notice it in my YACD game
16:45:58 <andythenorth> does it mostly affect PAX?
16:46:15 <Yexo> I have a file which kate refuses to open as utf-8, while I'm sure that parts of the file are in fact utf-8
16:46:28 <Yexo> how can I figure out which part(s) are invalid?
16:47:12 <planetmaker> can you load it and save it as utf-8?
16:47:31 <planetmaker> as in load as *something* and save as utf-8?
16:48:05 <Yexo> while it's open I can't change the encoding to utf-8, so I can't save it as such
16:49:12 <Yexo> but now the previously valid utf-8 strings are incorrectly saved :(
16:49:48 <planetmaker> can you not 'save as' but 're-interpret as'?
16:50:03 <Yexo> that didn't work, probably because part of it is invalid utf-8
16:51:01 <Yexo> few lines of python to figure out which line was invalid utf-8, removed that part and now I'm able to read the file correctly
16:53:52 <peter1138> andythenorth, i guess so. other cargo is way less likely to be accepted locally.
16:54:24 <andythenorth> so that's why I have 5k PAX waiting at some of my large stations
16:59:26 * andythenorth goes back to drawing
16:59:36 * andythenorth will cheat at boats
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17:45:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22486 /trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt:
17:45:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 11 changes by Parody
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18:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i knew it! dutch is a parody!
18:11:51 <SmatZ> hmm.. wasn't the world supposed to end around midnight CET?
18:12:12 <SmatZ> or will there be another "correction" to the date...
18:12:31 <SmatZ> 1994 was a mistake, yesterday was a mistake...
18:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the world is supposed to end plenty of times...
18:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and also, no, it was only "judgement day", where all worthy people have been called to heaven
18:13:17 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, there were not that many worthy people :p
18:14:14 <SmatZ> dihedral ? are you here or in heaven?
18:14:38 <Terkhen> the rapture will happen whenever there are at least two people worthy of it
18:14:43 <__ln__> my sources say it was supposed to happen at 1800 hours regardless of timezone
18:15:23 <SmatZ> maybe there weren't even two people worth... :x
18:16:25 <SmatZ> ok, let's wait to 21st Dec 2012 :)
18:16:57 * Terkhen bets for nothing will happen
18:17:29 <SmatZ> too bad one can't really bet on that
18:17:45 <SmatZ> if you win, you get the money
18:18:04 <SmatZ> if you lose, the world will end, and the betting company won't exist anymore
18:18:11 <SmatZ> so they can't gain anything
18:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is your problem? :p
18:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> of course, gambling will likely make you not worthy :p
18:20:04 <Terkhen> joking about the final judgement probably makes you not worthy anyways so we are condemned already :)
18:22:25 * andythenorth is confused by boat capacity
18:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the passenger ships refitted to cargo have totally odd capacities
18:43:02 <andythenorth> irl, a 30m barge might hold up 500t
18:43:13 <andythenorth> but a 55m ship holds 700t
18:43:22 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.83333333333
18:43:47 <andythenorth> I guess ships have more crew cabins etc
18:44:06 <andythenorth> and need more structural strength for sea travel
18:44:35 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what's weird about the pax ship cargo capacities?
18:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> they're something like 157
18:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> some really odd numbers
18:45:22 <andythenorth> I guess my sense of humour only works for me :P
18:45:43 <andythenorth> they're a ridiculously expensive way to transport cargo anyway
18:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's that weird x4 multiplier
18:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> which is way out...
18:46:13 <Eddi|zuHause> especially for ships
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18:46:27 <andythenorth> I just made up my own multiplier in this case
18:46:53 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i have not updated to the latest version yet
18:46:55 <Alberth> length*8 + 260t = capacity
18:47:31 <Alberth> 260 is too much to be right, I think
18:51:27 <andythenorth> a 66ft humber keel has 80t capacity, but a 66ft puffer has 120t
18:51:36 <andythenorth> both are flat bottomed barge-type hulls
18:51:41 <andythenorth> both for uk coastal trade
18:51:53 <andythenorth> one has 50% more capacity
18:52:18 <andythenorth> there's draft and beam to account for as well I guess
18:52:36 <andythenorth> and density of cargo
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18:59:11 <SpComb> 80t of feathers or 120t of hammers?
19:02:10 <SpComb> it's an important difference
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19:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a trick question! the hammers weigh more!
19:18:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r22487 /trunk/src/saveload/oldloader_sl.cpp: -Fix (r15216)[FS#4622]: engine IDs for coal and mail wagons were swapped
19:19:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and nobody noticed :p
19:59:30 <andythenorth> if I give canal boats realistic speeds...
19:59:35 <andythenorth> will anyone use them?
20:00:40 <Hirundo> please define 'realistic'
20:00:59 <Alberth> just add a 'realistic' flag :)
20:03:55 <Ammler> and almost 0 running cost maybe
20:03:58 <Terkhen> that's... really slow :P
20:04:06 <peter1138> problem is the high cost of canals :S
20:05:34 <andythenorth> that's resolvable :P
20:05:35 <Hirundo> the cost of building canals should change over time (changing labour costs etc), that's 'realistic' ;)
20:06:02 <andythenorth> cargo should age less on a canal boat :P
20:06:19 <andythenorth> or they should go 4 times faster than other vehicles
20:06:27 <andythenorth> and other silly suggestions
20:06:47 <andythenorth> Terkhen: 12mph is too slow?
20:07:06 <andythenorth> compared to 15mph?
20:07:07 <Hirundo> What is their introduction date?
20:07:09 <peter1138> some of the early stock ships are slow
20:07:17 <andythenorth> Hirundo: not sure yet
20:07:28 <Terkhen> hmm... if their current speed is 15mph then I probably have avoided them
20:07:37 <andythenorth> Terkhen: they don't currently exist
20:07:37 <peter1138> my mail ship goes 15mph :p
20:07:46 <andythenorth> but other FISH boats are 15-21mph
20:08:24 <Ammler> it's not the speed what matter, it's the income at end of year or month
20:08:36 <peter1138> do we have restrictions on what ships can go where?
20:08:44 <Ammler> so if you have big cap and very low cost, it might work
20:09:06 <andythenorth> Ammler: it's cheap to run, cheap to buy
20:09:31 <Ammler> as said, doesn't matter, you need to run it for some time and decide then :-)
20:11:08 <andythenorth> have an extra 1mph :P
20:11:13 <andythenorth> I avoid 13 usually
20:11:22 <andythenorth> it's ok in hex though
20:11:49 <Alberth> just use km/h to display :p
20:12:04 <andythenorth> drawing very small stuff is hard
20:12:09 <andythenorth> drawing very big stuff is hard
20:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> ship speed should be displayed in knots :p
20:12:20 <andythenorth> drawing medium sized stuff is easy :)
20:12:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: good idea :)
20:12:37 <andythenorth> drawing things the size of a train is quick
20:13:05 <andythenorth> that's how all those train sets get done so quick. DanMacK can draw an entire train set in the time it takes him to draw one boat for me.
20:13:42 <Ammler> what does small stuff mean, are the boats that small, so you need 100s to traspaort one primary?
20:15:04 <andythenorth> Ammler drawing a fork lift-truck is hard
20:15:14 <andythenorth> 7 pixels long to do a complex shape
20:16:09 <andythenorth> big stuff is hard because it has to be accurately lit
20:18:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22488 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Doc: Add Doxygen comments to screenshot code.
21:07:03 * Hirundo grabs a magnifying glass
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21:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> on what kind of scale is that to the other ships?
21:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be slightly offset to the right of the tile, so two ships look like passing each other
21:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> (ships pass on the right worldwide, unlike road side)
21:17:32 <peter1138> lies, ships pass through each other
21:18:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's on the same scale as the other ships in FISH :)
21:18:30 <andythenorth> turns out to be approx 2ft / pixel, although that was never a decision
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21:40:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22489 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix [FS#4623]: don't cast pointers to unsigned long or vice versa
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