IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-05-13
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00:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "opengfx+industries and industry-station-names are incompatible" <- probably one of the sets should get a check to disable
00:24:57 <Yexo> opengfx+industries has that check, but only since yesterday morning
00:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> "the first green party ministerpresident of Baden-Württemberg Winfried Kretschmann gets two votes from the opposition during his election in the regional parliament"
00:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's quite unusual
00:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> there have even been cases where a ministerpresident wasn't elected because he lacked a few votes from his own party
00:38:21 <Eddi|zuHause> most notably in Hessen where Andrea Ypsilanti (social democrats) wasn't elected because she was too close to the left party
00:41:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the left party is kind of the evil communistic monster in german politics
00:43:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it consists to one half from the remnants of the former "social unity party" of eastern germany, and to the other half of former left wing social democrats which were discontent with the more "new middle" positions in the era of chancellor Schröder
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00:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> (the "social unity party" was forcefully joined between the east german social democratic and the east german communistic party under soviet rule after WWII)
00:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the left party is often the smallest of the 5 relevant parties in west germany, and the second largest in east germany
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08:49:45 <planetmaker> even though I resent the comparison
08:57:56 <dihedral> planetmaker, but it is rather creative :-)
08:58:19 <dihedral> i do not think the comparison is quite valid either - however i think they did make a very good job of their piece of 'art' :-P
09:02:49 <planetmaker> It's quite creative and I like it for that. Still the comparison is in a way 'inverted'
09:03:02 <planetmaker> The artistic job is well done.
09:03:19 <planetmaker> and I'm sure that it would also make good material for a satire programme or alike
09:03:59 <planetmaker> Especially given that this was directly authorized and supervised by a person awarded the nobel peace price previously...
09:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "rebels" - "terrorists"... not a lot of difference
09:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but the link doesn't load
09:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or at least veeeeeeeery slowly
09:20:58 <planetmaker> normal speed here
09:23:25 <Chris_Booth> planetmaker just the person I needed to talk to, I have found another bug in OpenGFX+ Trains.
09:23:43 <Chris_Booth> there is an image of it do you already know this bug? or shall I bug report it?
09:24:10 <Chris_Booth> the T.I.M and AsiaStar are missing half od there locos when on the diagonal
09:28:06 <planetmaker> Thanks, But that's already fixed in the nightlies :-)
09:28:33 <planetmaker> ignoring the (different) sprite height rather
09:28:48 <Chris_Booth> aaaah ok then planetmaker just wanted to check befor I made the report
09:29:01 <planetmaker> nah, it's really appreciated :-)
09:29:02 <Chris_Booth> I know how annoying it is to have same bug report more than once
09:29:35 <Chris_Booth> then I can blame V for loading an old version of openGFX+
09:29:37 <planetmaker> better than not having it reported at all :-)
09:29:48 <planetmaker> No, you can't, I'm afraid.
09:29:55 <planetmaker> The fixed version is not available from bananas
09:31:40 <planetmaker> maybe I should just re-release it for that bug as it's quite ugly...
09:32:30 <planetmaker> but as no-one reported it yet... (you are afaik indeed the first!)... I didn't yet bother ;-)
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09:40:31 <Chris_Booth> peter1138 V453000, I was just to lazy to type it. he created the map
09:41:25 <Chris_Booth> lol, he isn't in channel you tab autocomplete fails
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11:07:43 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth, now you may complain why he didn't use ogfx+trains 0.2.5 :-P
11:20:14 <planetmaker> it's only one bug, but ugly to look at. I guess I should have released that weeks ago...
11:20:23 <planetmaker> especially as my current focus is elsewhere
11:21:55 <planetmaker> btw, does your problem with the map upload persist, Terkhen ?
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12:18:47 <Terkhen> I can't update two of my uploads, the other two work fine
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13:12:30 <Belugas> who cares... it's a friday!
13:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> better than monday, worse than saturday
13:14:01 <Prof_Frink> Belugas: *Finally*.
13:15:40 <Eddi|zuHause> is that the friday song that everybody is talking about?
13:16:30 <Eddi|zuHause> never actually heard it
13:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> my internets are too slow today for that anyway
13:17:42 <Terkhen> after reading what people says about it, I decided to not listen to it either
13:17:53 <Belugas> and my work@work schedule denies me the time frame to do so as qwell...
13:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you work too much ;)
13:26:27 <Belugas> but what to expect when you're good as me? ;)
13:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "one third of USA's nuclear power stations fails security test"
13:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> "of course, all nuclear power stations are safe, NRC assures."
13:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> more specifically: corrupt idiots.
13:53:51 <Terkhen> today I saw in the news that in the 80s they almost built a nuclear power station in the same place where the earthquake happened a few days ago
13:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "well, a heavy earthquake would not likely hit the same place twice" :p
13:55:29 <Terkhen> they were planning on building the same model used for the reactor 1 of Fukushima
13:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that's no surprise at all... there are only like 3 fundamentally different models
13:56:38 <Terkhen> "breaks on tsunamis", "breaks on earthquakes" and "breaks when it wants to"?
13:59:14 <Eddi|zuHause> no, "hot water", "pressure water" and "breeder"
14:02:06 <glx> as long as they don't use tchernobyl technology
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14:02:57 <Terkhen> probably all models fit in the "breaks when you turn off security" category
14:03:05 <Terkhen> or was that finally proven as only a rumour?
14:03:37 <Eddi|zuHause> when "security" means "water pump", then yes...
14:06:56 <glx> but when the fail comes from control rods it's another story
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14:58:46 * Belugas is having a blast adapting work application to Windows 7 system
15:09:04 <glx> 7 is more compatible than vista
15:10:30 <peter1138> 7 is probably the best windows yet
15:11:21 <Terkhen> only xp and 7 can be considered for that distinction :P
15:12:04 <Terkhen> vista was barely an OS for me, and don't get me started on ME
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15:13:43 <devilsadvocate> <peter1138> 7 is probably the best windows yet <- You know, its sad thats something that has to be said, and that a number of people would disagree
15:14:27 <peter1138> some people even like vista, yeah
15:15:53 <devilsadvocate> oh, i didnt mean it that way
15:15:54 <Terkhen> I could understand someone preferring xp, but vista?
15:16:05 <glx> maybe they didn't know xp
15:16:32 <devilsadvocate> i meant it in the way that 7 is the newest of the windows, the last one being over 3 years old, and is also consequently the most expensive, that one would expect it to be the defacto best
15:17:40 <peter1138> yeah, ME and vista are the reason it's not so clear cut :)
15:18:04 * peter1138 has cubicgrid -root running, hehe
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15:18:38 <peter1138> xscreensavers in my root window? yes please
15:24:54 <Belugas> problem is the freaking scaling
15:25:02 <Belugas> it screws all our forms
15:25:15 <Belugas> plus the security is very problematic
15:25:39 <Belugas> something that once ran on current user account now runs on system
15:25:50 <Belugas> and other joyfull stuff like that
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15:26:23 <Belugas> and.. i deal on a daily basis with xp, vista and win 7. I by far prefer XP
15:27:01 <Belugas> but my prefered bands (apart Mogwai) are from the 80-90...
15:33:28 <glx> <@Belugas> something that once ran on current user account now runs on system <-- that's not normal
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15:44:19 <DorpsGek> ZirconiumX: LordAro was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 20 hours, 14 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <LordAro> :) all in good time
15:46:05 * ZirconiumX decides to make fun of LordAro's comment
15:46:16 <ZirconiumX> Will I see you again?
15:46:22 <ZirconiumX> <LordAro> :) all in good time
15:51:42 <Belugas> glx: i guess it's the fact that we've programmed most of our stuff in XP, we've never moved anything on vista. So now, we have to adjust to the new schemed
15:52:02 <Belugas> basically, we have a service that monitors some apps
15:52:08 <glx> vista is worse on that point
15:52:50 <Belugas> one of the reasons we did not moved on vista. and xp was stilla available. but when xp was not anymore, welll.. we had to adpat
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16:07:56 * Alberth welcomes Belugas to this channel at this time
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16:22:39 <Belugas> i'm always there, i'm just... working and eating and swearing and watching ;)
16:26:08 * ZirconiumX is appalled at Belugas' bad language
16:26:49 <Belugas> you are? So you know what quebecor's swearing sonds like?
16:27:23 * ZirconiumX doesn't want to know
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17:16:42 * Eddi|zuHause never understood why americans ever make such fuss about "bad" language...
17:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> especially this bleeping on TV...
17:21:31 * Alberth never understood why German TV does not broadcast English movies in English either
17:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: it occasionally was done, but the channels would have to purchase additional broadcast rights
17:23:41 <glx> audience would be lower too
17:23:59 <Eddi|zuHause> especially for satellite broadcast, which is receivable in all of europe, this would be expensive
17:24:17 <__ln__> south park uses bleeping in some ironic sense
17:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's probably done in the german translation as well, but i haven't really followed south park
17:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i know there was an episode where they counted the number of "shit"s, but i don't remember if they used bleeping
17:43:12 * Belugas never understood why series are almost always in english on DVD, with subtitles (sometimes)
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17:44:19 <glx> here they are often french only
17:44:45 <Belugas> but but but... I WNAT THEM IN FRNECH!!!
17:44:55 <Belugas> see how bad i am in english?
17:45:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22446 /trunk/src/lang/ (english_US.txt finnish.txt serbian.txt):
17:45:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
17:45:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:45:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: serbian - 2 changes by etran
17:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> this would be way easier if the MAFIAA didn't force these region codes upon us
17:48:41 <Belugas> glx, the thing is, my wife does not understand english as well as i do. And there are some series where the actors are actually more mumbling than really speaking. So w both loose some dialogs
17:49:11 <Belugas> while when it's in french, even with the horrible french accent, we can still understand it all
17:49:40 <Belugas> note that the horrible french accent is most of the time 10 times beter then the quebec accent...
17:50:03 <Belugas> which feels like joe-from-the-deep-farms village kinda...
17:52:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22447 /branches/1.1/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
17:52:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
17:52:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Git revision detection would return too much when tags are involved (r22435)
17:52:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] When action14 specified different values for the palette, the values were OR-ed. Use the last set value instead (r22416)
17:52:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Network] Kicking yourself via remote console crashes the server [FS#4606] (r22414)
17:52:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Make sure the action2 ID of a generic feature callback is valid (r22409)
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17:57:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22448 /branches/1.1/ (10 files in 4 dirs):
17:57:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
17:57:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] When GRFs are disabled via Action E or due to GRM failure, also display an error in the GUI (r22444, r22443)
17:57:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Do not popup fatal NewGRF error messages in the intro screen. The GRFs are not going to be activated there anyway and the GRF settings GUI will not display the errors either (r22442)
17:57:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Catenary was drawn incorrectly next to level crossings with foundations (r22437)
17:57:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Apply railtype property 12 (station graphics) also to station groundsprites from action 1 (r22436)
18:04:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22449 /branches/1.1/ (13 files in 5 dirs):
18:04:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
18:04:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Feature: [NewGRF] Allow to filter by town of the current industry when using industry variable 0x68 [FS#4591] (r22434)
18:04:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Change: Improve the speed of YAPF by tweaking hash tables size (r22351, r22350, r22348)
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18:34:07 <foobar___> i'm unable to build a water tower anywhere (even in the city) in the sub-tropical climate, is that (known) bug? or can you confirm it? :)
18:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you must build it on top of a house
18:35:10 <Terkhen> what error are you getting?
18:35:37 <foobar___> why this is not mentioned in the error message or wiki?
18:35:59 <foobar___> it just says "it can be built only in the city"
18:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> aye, could use a better explanation
18:37:20 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... updating kernel... can't possibly be a good idea...
18:38:10 <Terkhen> use arch, you will get used to updating kernels every random day :P
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18:43:16 <Belugas> what wold be the fun if the game woulsd tell you exactly what you did wrong and how to fix it??? forum swould be useless, wiki would be useless!
18:43:33 <Belugas> mmh... next step" Do you this wrong. do you want me to correct it for you?"
18:46:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, please, mister paperclip.
18:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i hate how konqueror cannot be run after updating KDE but before restarting...
18:56:05 <ZirconiumX> konqueror has been konquered
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19:32:07 <Eddi|zuHause> if i'm not back in 10 minutes, start to worry.
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19:37:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be a first...
19:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... and forgot recompiling the task bar... of course...
19:40:09 <Terkhen> welcome back to the living
20:07:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22450 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Fix [FS#4610]: Don't "log" the NewGRFs in the screenshot when in the menu
20:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what if i load a menu with newgrfs?
20:09:10 <Rubidium> then you're screwed anyways
20:09:37 <Rubidium> as as far as I'm aware it won't actually load the NewGRFs properly
20:10:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually tried that...
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20:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... something's very wrong in konqueror...
20:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i just hit "submit" on a post, and told me there was a new post with the exact content i just submitted
20:23:56 <Eddi|zuHause> like, it sends every request twice
20:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because "view first unread post" doesn't work either
20:27:03 <melwil> hey, my friend is having a problem in 1.1, he can't build two way block signals!
20:27:11 <melwil> is that a common issue? -.-
20:27:32 <Terkhen> what is he trying and what problem is he getting?
20:28:09 <Alberth> convert button not depressed?
20:28:11 <melwil> exactly what it sounds like, he has a piece of rail, and when placing signals on it, he does not get the two way signal
20:28:27 <Alberth> what happens instead?
20:28:33 <Alberth> error message perhaps?
20:28:35 <melwil> he get one way or the other
20:28:44 <Terkhen> are they really block signals?
20:29:16 <melwil> this is unobtainable for him
20:29:31 <Terkhen> that does not answer our questions :P
20:30:19 <melwil> afaik it's a clean install of 1.1, so no
20:30:42 <melwil> and signal gui is enabled
20:31:02 <Alberth> signal gui has nothing to do with it afaik
20:31:21 <melwil> you linked it, so I just asked =)
20:32:06 <Alberth> just making sure we agree on what a block signal is, and where you can find it.
20:32:43 <melwil> well, if it's a block or path signal isn't the issue, it's the two way lights that don't work
20:32:49 <Alberth> do you have a picture of the signal he gets?
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20:33:16 <Alberth> path signals do not exist in two-way variant
20:33:43 <melwil> I've not playedm uch since their implementation, sec
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20:34:43 <melwil> thanks, sorry for not catching onto the "are they really block signals" question before now ;)
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20:34:51 <SigHunter> is there a best practice to convert from rail to monorail? some way that will make it less time-consuming than doing it manually? (sell each train + create new one with same directions)
20:36:08 <Alberth> besides using 'clone train' I wouldn't know
20:36:20 <SigHunter> well clone train doesnt work
20:36:31 <SigHunter> i cant clone a train to monorail depot that is normal rail
20:36:33 <Alberth> only not with the first one :)
20:36:38 <planetmaker> but build one and clone orders
20:36:51 <TWerkhoven> auto-replace engines with universal engines
20:36:51 <Terkhen> IIRC there is a universal track NewGRF that should help with this issue, but I never tried it
20:36:54 <Alberth> planetmaker: good point :)
20:37:19 <TWerkhoven> once they are all changed, convert all track then autorplace to proper engines + carriages?
20:37:46 <Alberth> SigHunter: you can also build new routes instead of upgrading existing ones
20:37:50 <Terkhen> I don't play games long enough to reach monorail / maglev anymore
20:38:08 * Alberth also doesn't play that long
20:39:12 <Terkhen> my longest game in a while was with yacd, and I stopped when I realized that if I connected the last big town remaining my network would collapse
20:39:55 <Alberth> I have yet to make a positive income with yacd :)
20:40:28 <Terkhen> hmm... I found it relatively easy with passengers
20:40:30 <Alberth> so far, I just go bankrupt very slowly :)
20:40:41 <Terkhen> in my last game I tried industries and I failed horribly
20:41:17 <Terkhen> I still find wrong that coal wants to cross the complete country instead of going to the nearest power plant
20:42:06 <Alberth> my major puzzle is where to start
20:42:24 <Alberth> cargo wants to go in so many different directions
20:42:56 <Alberth> passengers too btw, but perhaps I should try that some more
20:43:30 * planetmaker plays that long. But I don't upgrade anyway
20:43:51 <Alberth> play with breakdowns enabled :p
20:44:04 <planetmaker> how would that change that?
20:44:11 <Terkhen> Alberth: I choose two big towns and connect them
20:44:27 <Terkhen> the local traffic + the traffic between them is usually enough to start getting a profit
20:44:29 <Alberth> then reliability becomes a factor in picking engines, and keeping up-to-date
20:44:37 <Terkhen> but I still failed the first two times :P
20:45:10 <Alberth> I tried the tropical climate, but that is hopeless, so many very small towns :p
20:45:23 <planetmaker> hm... yes. But still. I like rail more. If monorail or maglev... I usually give them separate networks. Or only upgrade to maglev single routes.
20:45:32 <planetmaker> Unless I build maglev in the first place :-P
20:45:45 <Terkhen> well, I was cheating... I was playing a scenario :P
20:45:52 <SigHunter> i usually skip monorail because when im done converting, monorail is out ;/
20:46:10 <SigHunter> but thought i'd ask this time, maybe theres a golden way to do it like autoconverting to different trains
20:46:17 <Alberth> If I reach monorail/maglev, I also tend to build new routes
20:48:19 <Alberth> SigHunter: no, and afaik that's intentional. Otherwise the game gets very boring
20:48:50 <Alberth> ie you can upgrade by a few clicks then
20:49:46 <SigHunter> not boring for me, its a large map, (2kx2k), i still have many industries to connect
20:50:06 <SigHunter> well, ill continue doing it the way i did
20:50:15 <Alberth> I always get lost on such large maps
20:50:36 <Alberth> how is 2kx2k different from eg 1kx1k ?
20:50:54 <SigHunter> well the savegames are 4 times as big ;D
20:51:09 <Alberth> is it any different than just making all routes longer and thus more profitable?
20:51:43 <SigHunter> well, yes, thats mostly the point
20:51:59 <SigHunter> but i like the fact to have something to discover
20:52:03 <SigHunter> that i havent seen yet
20:52:24 <SigHunter> completely new ground to make accessible
20:52:25 <Alberth> and 1kx1k is too small?
20:53:14 <Alberth> sorry, I am just wondering why you'd want to play 2kx2k
20:53:22 <SigHunter> mostly because i can
20:53:28 <Alberth> I have not found a good reason so far
20:54:34 <Alberth> mostly because I won't be able to cover a large part of the map by a long shot.
20:55:04 <Alberth> there are plenty of save games of immense maps, with just a few things connected.
20:55:17 <SigHunter> well most times im playing coop with a friend, starting in 1934, playing till 2070
20:55:28 <SigHunter> so enough time to connect all stuff
20:55:38 <SigHunter> with 2 hands working, makes building faster
20:56:05 <SigHunter> maybe i let him do the converting
20:56:09 <Alberth> that's why there is MP :)
20:57:12 <Alberth> 140 years is enough to cover a whole 2kx2k map with 2 people?
20:57:28 <SigHunter> not everything of course
20:57:34 <planetmaker> Alberth: I don't think so
20:57:36 <SigHunter> mostly we just do the cool stuff
20:57:45 <planetmaker> We (coop) build on 512^2 maps for centuries...
20:57:48 <SigHunter> farm -> factory -> goods
20:58:05 <SigHunter> passengers and wood
20:58:26 <Alberth> planetmaker: but you lay lots of track
20:59:03 <Alberth> 2kx2k maps are mostly empty, long straight tracks across the map
20:59:04 <SigHunter> is there a way to modify buildingcosts / running costs on a progressed savegame?
20:59:27 <SigHunter> set everything to low and that sucks now
20:59:36 <Alberth> you'd have to start a new game
20:59:59 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
21:00:13 <Alberth> but you have an excuse to play more openttd, how can that be bad? :p
21:01:19 * andythenorth thinks he found a YACD bug
21:01:56 <andythenorth> when a link was temporarily broken, all the cargo waiting at an intermediate station....vanished
21:02:00 <andythenorth> over 1,000t of it
21:02:36 <Ruudjah> I am experimenting with breakdowns and multiple tracks for one direction - in the hopes to make more efficient tracks
21:03:13 <Ruudjah> So I make switches between tracks, so trains can move to another track when a train is jamming a track
21:03:37 <Ruudjah> but it causes some weird behaviour, I wonder if there are solutions for
21:04:14 <Ruudjah> e.g. when 2 tracks have 2 trains waiting before a switch
21:04:29 <Ruudjah> one train sometimes takes the other track
21:04:59 <Ruudjah> then after that, the other track is allowed a train. But that train wants to go on the other track _also_
21:05:10 <Ruudjah> instead of staying on its own track
21:06:01 <Ruudjah> the train probably chooses the other track because its own track has a train on it while the other track is empty
21:06:17 <Ruudjah> penalty signals wont help
21:06:29 <Alberth> yeah, trains avoid each other
21:06:44 <Alberth> which is good for break downs :)
21:07:53 <Ruudjah> sometimes, but sometimes not
21:07:55 <Alberth> I tend to have long stretches of double track between such crossings
21:08:15 <Alberth> ie not so many crossings
21:08:40 * Terkhen has yet to build a serious junction
21:08:54 * andythenorth only builds flippant and amusing junctions :P
21:09:05 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
21:09:06 <Terkhen> mine are quite stupid :P
21:09:08 <andythenorth> they're great for parties, but not much good when real work needs doing
21:09:13 <Ruudjah> Currently I have them of length equalling about 1,5-2x train size
21:09:18 * Alberth just builds whatever fits in the terrain
21:09:21 <SigHunter> is there a way to change destinations for all trains in a group?
21:09:25 <andythenorth> the terrain is mutable :P
21:09:33 <Terkhen> SigHunter: if they share orders yes
21:09:38 <andythenorth> my browser is apparently mutable
21:09:44 <andythenorth> it just changed from 'working' to 'crashed'
21:09:55 <SigHunter> what does sharing orders mean? they all have the same orders, is that enough?
21:10:12 <andythenorth> changing orders for one will also change orders for all sharing
21:10:20 <Eddi|zuHause> shared orders also automatically change for all trains if you change one
21:10:45 <Ruudjah> Will automatic orders be able to be disabled anytime?
21:10:59 <Eddi|zuHause> you make shared orders with ctrl+goto
21:11:04 <Ruudjah> various times I had some problems with them
21:11:25 <Ruudjah> few times even creating hundreds of orders in the list
21:11:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: unlikely, but some of the problems should be fixed
21:11:29 * andythenorth suggests renaming 'automatic orders'
21:11:40 <andythenorth> a change of name will fix 50% of players issues
21:11:47 <andythenorth> call them 'routing help' or something
21:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: if you still have problems with current trunk, please report them
21:12:05 <Alberth> Ruudjah: 10 train lengths or so
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21:12:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: how to call them?
21:12:39 <andythenorth> 'places I've visited' :P
21:12:54 * planetmaker likes implicit over automatic
21:13:19 <Alberth> Ruudjah: if trains just go from A to B, there is little need for them to switch tracks constantly I think
21:14:03 <planetmaker> that's not current trunk, is it Ruudjah ?
21:14:23 <Ruudjah> dont know if there have been changes between trunk and 1.1.0
21:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: i said "current trunk" for a reason... *headbang*
21:14:47 <planetmaker> there have been. or they'd be the same ;-)
21:15:08 <andythenorth> what happened to the recent daylength patch?
21:15:14 <Alberth> you can try a recent nightly to test whether they are still a problem
21:15:16 <andythenorth> the one that screwed with the calendar?
21:15:30 <Ruudjah> I ddnt save the game, so can't repro that screenie
21:15:48 <andythenorth> my game goes by way too fast
21:16:02 <Ruudjah> in another matter, is it possible to have trains leaving station when another one comes in?
21:16:28 <Alberth> not on that condition afaik
21:16:35 <planetmaker> Ruudjah: yes. one-track stations ;-)
21:17:33 <Ruudjah> not a good solution for me
21:17:56 <Ruudjah> cause then trains need to wait unloading before the other one has left
21:18:15 <Ruudjah> I want to use it for stations where oil can be dropped+loaded
21:18:42 <Ruudjah> full train comes in, drops, starts loading, other train leaves
21:19:00 <Ruudjah> currently solve it by trains to wait for 15 days
21:19:05 <Ruudjah> works, but not optimal solution
21:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: timetables
21:19:21 <andythenorth> timetables are not good enough :P
21:19:26 * andythenorth has decided this
21:19:42 * andythenorth is getting the hang of YACD now
21:20:01 * andythenorth thinks mainline trains running between large 'yard' stations does work
21:20:06 <Terkhen> I still don't know how to make timetables useful in a game
21:20:25 <andythenorth> Terkhen: well I have to use them with YACD because full load == fail
21:20:53 <Terkhen> I just let buses running without full load orders :P
21:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: buy a tram, make one round trip setting up the timetable, edit end station wait time +5 days, buy more trams, set the start date 5 days apart
21:21:17 <andythenorth> YACD is very interesting with freight once you have enough network nodes connected
21:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a little inconvenient, but it does work
21:21:35 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: sounds useful... but quite tedious
21:21:41 <Terkhen> I did not know that you could change the start date
21:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause> without timetables, trams tend to bunch up
21:21:52 <andythenorth> with YACD you can run very large freight trains which tend to get at least partial loads both ways
21:22:05 <andythenorth> it's a little unrealistic :P
21:22:16 <andythenorth> I have wood going from A to B and B to A
21:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the station start date is kind of the most minimalistic part of the timetable patches that actually got into trunk :p
21:22:58 * andythenorth has ideas for more exciting stuff
21:23:00 <Terkhen> andythenorth: that's my biggest problem with YACD and cargos
21:23:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I've decided not to worry about it
21:23:22 <andythenorth> clearly some wood is pine and some is oak or something
21:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i only had one of each industry, so i didn't get that luxury
21:24:00 <andythenorth> I haven't explored conditional orders much, they're a headache...
21:24:10 <andythenorth> ...but can they look ahead at cargo waiting at next station?
21:24:13 <Terkhen> anyways, the biggest problem is that I don't know how to build a network that deals with yacd cargos
21:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: there are different types of coal
21:24:35 <Terkhen> and power plants require a mixture of them?
21:24:35 <andythenorth> what I want is an order that says 'wait here until next station has x amount waiting OR load amount is now x'
21:24:54 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I don't think they can check the next station
21:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: usually they are refitted for one or the other
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21:25:29 <andythenorth> I had a bonkers idea
21:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> there's "brown" coal which has lower burn value, and "black" coal which has higher burn value.
21:25:31 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: that's the problem I face; I usually start with coal, but with YACD I have to bring it to three different locations
21:25:39 <andythenorth> I don't know if my idea can be implemented, but anyway...
21:25:59 <andythenorth> each train has a max length, probably dictated by shortest station in orders
21:26:15 <andythenorth> each train has a set of power (US term) allocated, i.e. n engine units
21:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and each coal type has different by-mixtures like sulphur
21:26:35 <Eddi|zuHause> which the plant has to be refitted to handle
21:27:05 <andythenorth> at each station, the wagon consist is assembled on demand by TTD according to some rules - amount of each cargo waiting, payment rate for cargo etc
21:27:29 <andythenorth> the player has to maintain an overall 'pool' of each wagon type, but this could also be automated
21:27:53 <planetmaker> why would he have to maintain that? Just buy a frigging new wagon for each trip
21:27:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: great, where is your patch? :p
21:28:08 <planetmaker> fire and forget weapons exist. why not wagons?
21:28:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: automated...
21:28:19 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the chinese did that with containers
21:28:22 <andythenorth> could just be a billing item
21:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "why the hell would we ship back empty containers to china if it's cheaper to build new ones?"
21:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> china isn't that big on imports, you know :p
21:29:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: where is my patch?
21:30:04 <andythenorth> is it over there?
21:30:07 <andythenorth> is it under there?
21:30:12 <andythenorth> I can't see my patch
21:30:18 <andythenorth> (game I play with my child :P )
21:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> great that it works on your child :p
21:43:04 <Ruudjah> Is there an advantage of non-drivethrough truck/bus stops over drivethrough ones?
21:43:22 <Ruudjah> I never used them since like 0.5 or 0.6
21:43:39 <melwil> non-drivthrough doens't block traffic
21:44:05 <Ruudjah> for <3 waiting truvcks/buses, that is
21:44:22 <melwil> if you have other routes that are supposed to go through, a loading bus standing on a drive through will block all other traffic
21:45:04 <andythenorth> non-drivethrough has higher capacity per tile
21:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: yes, vehicles will not get in each others way when one is finished loading and the other is not
21:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and they don't need a separate turn-around place
21:47:09 <Ruudjah> andythenorth non-drivethrough has higher capacity per tile < No! no.
21:47:24 <Ruudjah> drivethrough beats nondrivethrough by landslide
21:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> a drivethrough can service 4 vehicles if used in both directions
21:47:50 <Ruudjah> drivethrough also dont need turnaround
21:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: then it needs separate entrance and exit roads
21:48:24 <Ruudjah> drivethrough in non-drivethrough config has higher cpacity, does not block
21:48:34 <Rubidium> non dtrs balances better unload load
21:48:41 <Ruudjah> So those advantages arent advantages
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21:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: yes, that does block
21:49:22 <Ruudjah> So.... there are no advantages of ndt
21:49:44 <Ruudjah> except when turning around at end of road is disabled
21:50:27 <Rubidium> full loading one cargo can block loading of others
21:50:48 <Rubidium> in a drive through stop, but can't in non drive through
21:51:10 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you fill all bays with loading vehicles :)
21:51:11 <Ruudjah> A dt in ndt config behaves the same, but better as ndt
21:51:36 <Ruudjah> since no turning around
21:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: no, it does not. a dtrs will have two vehicles behind each other, and the second one can't overtake
21:51:58 <Ruudjah> but still - the capcity is not higher
21:52:10 <Ruudjah> since ndt force trucks to turn around
21:52:14 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody said that
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21:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, he has no clue :p
21:52:42 <Rubidium> with 4 vehicles you can completely block 4 drive through stops in 'ndt' config by full loading, whereas you need 8 when using only ndt
21:53:40 <Rubidium> maximum capacity of dt might be better, but there are certainly many cases where a ndt performs better
21:54:02 <Rubidium> *especially* with full loading multiple cargos at the same station
21:54:41 <Ruudjah> ok, so for dual/multicargo setups it might be
21:55:12 <Rubidium> or when full loading passengers when cargo has a destination
21:55:35 <Ruudjah> ok, so there are small advantages in corner cases
21:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> not "corner cases", "usage scenarios"
21:56:54 <Ruudjah> Rubidium: whats the diff in max capacity and performance?
21:57:06 <Ruudjah> afaiac they are the same
21:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: actually, dtrs heavily benefit from quantum effects :p
21:57:51 <Ruudjah> corner case usage scenario's
21:58:29 <Rubidium> Ruudjah: capacity is what it can, in theory, handle
21:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Ruudjah: if you only use coop-style networks, you'll never see certain scenarios. that doesn't make them "corner case"
21:58:38 <Rubidium> whereas performance is the amount you're using it
21:59:18 <Rubidium> e.g. capacity of a coal wagon is 25t, but on average you're using ~12t due to it travelling empty back to the loading station
21:59:50 <Rubidium> likewise a dtrs has a capacity of 4 loading half-tile vehicles, but it won't be loading 4 all the time
22:00:11 <Ruudjah> Eddi|zuHause: I understand, but above scenario needs quite some prereqs to come into existence. That makes it pretty cornercase
22:00:12 <Rubidium> actually, in case of full load it'll be half empty quite often
22:01:50 <Ruudjah> I have seen lots of ottd games, never saw that secnario
22:01:51 <Rubidium> really, is it such a corner case for using one station for loading grain and livestock?
22:02:28 <Ruudjah> ndts wont solve the problem well there
22:02:30 <Rubidium> then I've got the feeling you're not looking hard enough
22:02:41 <Ruudjah> admitted, they solve it better then one dt
22:03:10 <Ruudjah> but for most players enough problem to make 2 dts, put depot behind and use gotodepot orders
22:03:26 *** douknoukem has joined #openttd
22:03:29 <Ruudjah> to not have two grain loading while livestock is waiting
22:03:51 <andythenorth> if you want to use articulated road vehicles it's a moot point anyway :P
22:03:53 <Ruudjah> except when you have 2 of each cargo
22:04:11 <andythenorth> trucks with trailers etc
22:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the state machine can't handle them
22:16:08 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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