IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-06
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00:00:30 <__ln__> is passworm something like a sandworm
00:00:49 <Lokimaros> Yes, but it excretes passes.
00:05:03 <Lokimaros> Or it excretes in passing, I neve got the details.
00:05:31 <Lokimaros> Anyway, I'm back up on the PC.
00:06:00 <Lokimaros> And hardly any data lost, was able to recover all but the root filesystem.
00:06:12 <Lokimaros> That is still there, but all in lost+found.
00:06:29 <Lokimaros> The whole fscking partition.
00:09:31 *** Lokimaros is now known as Mazur
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00:24:56 <__ln__> is it wrong to emphasize the great size of US by saying it is "the size of Texas"?
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01:23:32 <Eddi|zuHause> a person saying this has likely no clue how large either actually is ;)
01:26:20 <__ln__> i was planning to use it in ironic sense in a paper :)
01:38:26 <Eddi|zuHause> irony is a dangerous thing. especially in written text
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04:51:53 <planetmaker> thanks Eddi|zuHause for the FIRS translation hints. fixed now
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07:29:12 <dihedral> planetmaker, ist there a screenshot of the titlegame that won the competition?
07:29:40 <planetmaker> Well... it's also in 1.1.0 ;-) - but yes, on the titlegame page
07:30:17 <dihedral> i am at work and did not want to start a game :-D
07:32:22 <planetmaker> hardly. There's no such thing as a road map really
07:32:48 <planetmaker> of course everyone is welcome to edit it for the existing versions
07:33:05 <norbert79> Agreee, that it isn't necessary too, but then I would suggest a huge REJECTED logo on it 45° degreed with huge big letters :)
07:33:08 <Yexo> all roadmap pages are locked, and for good reason
07:33:30 <planetmaker> oh, they're locked? I didn't know that :-)
07:33:38 * andythenorth would like to put bananas changelog field on the roadmap
07:33:45 <dihedral> c'mon - it's been like that for a long time pm ^^
07:33:45 <andythenorth> that means it would never happen :(
07:34:18 <Yexo> and we don't even have a roadmap 1.2 page
07:34:21 <dihedral> but it's true, a roadmap would not really help ^^
07:34:43 <andythenorth> what's needed for a changelog? - a new django field, a new text panel in game?
07:34:58 <andythenorth> it might be useful to tie changelogs to specific versions
07:35:16 * andythenorth isn't sure how bananas schema works
07:35:51 <V453000> holy cow, I think I found an openttd crashing thingy in 1.1.0 stable
07:35:51 * planetmaker assignes bananas re-write to andy, including changelog field, multi-author access and what-not
07:35:59 <V453000> also morning everyone :)
07:36:27 <andythenorth> we're rewriting bananas?
07:36:38 <andythenorth> I'm rewriting bananas?
07:36:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's what tb constantly claims needs doing
07:36:49 <planetmaker> the db design and stuff
07:36:56 <andythenorth> new framework fallacy :P
07:37:46 <V453000> ah, well I was trying to click the "down" button quickly in openttd while downloading new content, and when I pressed it quickly several times, openttd crashed 2 times in a row ... does that have something to do with bananas and your work there or openttd?
07:37:53 <norbert79> I prefer the upside down pyramid... It is a bigger challange
07:37:59 <Yexo> V453000: known and fixed in trunk
07:38:14 <Yexo> FS#4571 / fixed in r22294
07:38:20 <norbert79> So I assume 1.1.1 will appear soon :D
07:39:00 <planetmaker> I don't think that bug is serious enough to warrant a out-of-order release. But it will come for sure.
07:39:26 <V453000> sure isnt, it just surprised me :p
07:40:17 <planetmaker> stable just means the relative bug count per line of could is or should be lower when compared to trunk ;-)
07:40:28 <planetmaker> s/line of could/line of code/
07:40:58 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ooh, god, what possibilities... Starting a flame on stable and appearnt bug ammount :)
07:41:22 <norbert79> But I don't want to pick up my trollface :D
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07:41:55 <norbert79> Btw is it also this cloudy in Germany too planetmaker? Btw weather would be a nice idea in the game
07:42:17 <norbert79> fog affecting trucks on half speed
07:42:22 <norbert79> snow blocking trains
07:42:34 * andythenorth thinks time to do something else
07:43:20 <andythenorth> if we rewrote bananas
07:43:28 <andythenorth> we could add 'mod down points'
07:43:31 <andythenorth> for badly behaved grfs
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07:44:31 <norbert79> andythenorth: Would be a good idea, yet just plain raitings would also do the trick
07:44:50 <norbert79> since think about it, some GRF maker would see in an other GRF a competency and starts devoting it
07:45:30 <andythenorth> points against technical criteria are not
07:46:00 <norbert79> same method, same results... And you guys have to all review all the GRF's and handle false statements on bad behaviour too
07:46:07 <norbert79> which might turn out to be false
07:46:21 <norbert79> same misery like handling GRF changed savegames
07:47:03 <andythenorth> norbert79: describe a system to decide a rating (say between 0 and 5, with 5==highest)...
07:47:21 <norbert79> No, I don't think that the rating system in itself makes any sense
07:48:11 <norbert79> like you have B1.GRF which makes trains shiny, I have B2.GRF which turns trains into more shiny trains... Now you introduce one new feature, and I am in envy, and rate your GRF very bad, and ask 10 more people to do so
07:48:20 <norbert79> while the GRF works perfectly
07:48:42 <norbert79> Now think further :)
07:48:55 <andythenorth> my proposal is for boolean mod-down points, on specific issues
07:49:24 <andythenorth> nothing ever implies a grf is good
07:49:24 <andythenorth> but if it has known problems for version x.y.z, that's indicated
07:49:36 <andythenorth> or it's not a final release
07:49:49 <norbert79> No, rating should not be introduced at all, and leave up to people to decide what GRF to be downloaded and used... If some GRF won't be downloaded for like 2 years, then it can go
07:50:04 <andythenorth> norbert79: what problem do you think I'm trying to solve?
07:50:18 <norbert79> Avoiding GRFs on poor quality
07:50:48 <norbert79> For less headache, but ratings will just do the oppositew
07:51:00 <andythenorth> less headache for who?
07:51:01 <norbert79> since the results can be manipulated
07:51:12 <norbert79> for OpenTTD dev team what else?
07:51:41 <andythenorth> ok so here's the issue I see
07:51:49 <andythenorth> currently most grfs on bananas are not 'done'
07:51:55 <andythenorth> many are 'quite done'
07:51:59 <andythenorth> some are probably broken
07:52:09 <norbert79> Is OpenTTD finished?
07:52:20 <andythenorth> because changing grfs in game breaks games, we've banned that
07:52:33 <norbert79> that wasn't the best choice btw, but a reasonable
07:52:45 <norbert79> But let me ask back: when will OpenTTD be finished?
07:52:51 <andythenorth> so now an unsuspecting bananas user downloads grf xyz, finds it has problems, and has to start over with a new game
07:53:15 <andythenorth> that's kind of bollocks really isn't it
07:53:43 <andythenorth> it's never 'finished', but there's a clear difference between a nightly, a pre-1.0 release, and a post 1.0 release
07:54:36 <norbert79> Introduce then requirements and have a beta banana and a stable one, like with Debian... Set policies, where GRFs have to fit against, otherwise they go back to the beta pool... But ratings are like statistics, they can be easily manipulated...
07:55:02 <norbert79> ratings will turn Bananas into a disaster
07:55:17 <andythenorth> is the Debian policy system a disaster?
07:55:33 <dihedral> you'd surely want it in python though, would you not? ^^
07:55:40 <norbert79> No, but no package goes into a pool just because it's being voted for that
07:55:49 <andythenorth> norbert79: was voting mentioned?
07:55:54 <dihedral> andythenorth, java servlets :-D
07:56:27 <norbert79> Think about the fact, that with ratings new GRF developers will have no chance on releasing newly developed GRF's, and have less opportunity to spread their ideas, since older GRF's have 123456789 good votes and his only 2
07:56:48 <andythenorth> only on the assumption your making that the system includes voting
07:56:51 <norbert79> Ok just one question so I can understand you right
07:57:07 <norbert79> Would you leave rating to the users or the developers?
07:57:23 <andythenorth> same as forums etc
07:57:27 <andythenorth> small number of people
07:57:39 <andythenorth> we don't allow voting on commits
07:57:45 <planetmaker> I don't really want to judge the quality of the grfs users supply in an authorative way
07:57:45 <norbert79> Ok, then many of my comments are out of question
07:57:50 <dihedral> i'd not do rating at all to be honest
07:58:08 <Yexo> only letting a small number of users (devs/mods or not) vote is a bad idea
07:58:25 <dihedral> letting anybody vote is a bad idea too ^^
07:58:28 <Yexo> now if there was a clear set of rules and there only has to be a yes/no decision, that can be done by a small number of people
07:58:39 <andythenorth> it's objective criteria
07:58:41 <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I would also think fitting to specific requzirements would be a better solution too, like: 1.) does the GRF support latest stable (1.1.0) or works only with speciifc version - 1pt
07:58:45 <andythenorth> I'm asking for fact, not opinion
07:58:53 <dihedral> i think voting / rating will get in the way
07:58:57 <andythenorth> for example, it's fact whether a grf is savegame safe
07:59:06 <andythenorth> it's fact whether it implements action 14 stuff or not
07:59:07 <dihedral> authors might feel 'bashed' by bad rating and stop their work
07:59:08 <planetmaker> but there is no small set of rules. Or it'd require extensive review. Who's willing to do that? In an objective way?
07:59:13 <norbert79> andythenorth: Ok then we are talking about the same method, just from different perspective
07:59:14 <dihedral> which is a very bad side effect
07:59:20 <Yexo> norbert79: grfs can already have minimum and maximum version, so if it doesn't work in 1.1 just set the maximum version to 1.0
07:59:30 <norbert79> Yexo: One problem less then :)
07:59:38 <andythenorth> players might feel bashed by an extensive number of grfs that break their games
08:00:05 <planetmaker> hm... slovak language still broken
08:00:06 <andythenorth> (if such an extensive number exists, I'm not sure actually)
08:00:07 <norbert79> ands despite good generic rating GRF's can still cause issues
08:00:13 <dihedral> that though is another problem - and voting / rating is not a good solution to that, andythenorth
08:00:16 <andythenorth> there's no 'good' rating
08:00:21 <andythenorth> just 'this grf has known problems'
08:00:35 <planetmaker> well. Every grf has. As a matter of perspective
08:01:04 <andythenorth> well currently for a player, it's a total crap-shoot
08:01:16 <norbert79> planetmaker: Considering of course what was it made for, like Town names GRF's would not have too much issues, but it was more meant just to replace names, right?
08:01:21 <andythenorth> they have barely any way of knowing what a grf is / does, what it's compatible with etc.
08:01:30 <andythenorth> and once they commit to their game, that's it
08:01:32 <dihedral> bananas provides a service for grf authors - which is in game deployment
08:01:42 <planetmaker> norbert79: I can no problem combine evil-ism with town names
08:01:43 <dihedral> it is the users choise which grf to get / install / use
08:02:03 <andythenorth> but it's a hugely uninformed choice
08:02:07 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ok, maybe I had my sleep and haven't thought through that from a more evil perspective :D
08:02:08 <planetmaker> there's no safe grf à priori
08:02:46 <planetmaker> andythenorth: so is the use, of say, an app store
08:02:52 <andythenorth> isn't the current situation equivalent to going to Youtube or whatever and clicking some buttons for 'some random videos that have nice sounding names'?
08:02:52 <planetmaker> you just gotta know what to download
08:03:05 <andythenorth> app stores have policies
08:03:05 <norbert79> planetmaker: Careful using the words app store, Apple might sue you :D
08:03:16 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes: conforms to broad standards
08:03:21 <planetmaker> so does bananas have.
08:03:28 <planetmaker> there are TOS, that's it.
08:03:46 <planetmaker> No warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, including merchandisability or whatever
08:04:17 <planetmaker> even your licenses say so :-P
08:04:20 <andythenorth> an app store might have things including: useful descriptions, reviews, ratings, links to developer website, similar apps
08:04:30 <andythenorth> bananas provides almost none of that
08:04:33 <planetmaker> so do newgrf descriptions
08:04:36 <norbert79> andythenorth: App-Store BASIC! Just from OpenTTD for YOU!
08:04:53 <norbert79> no need for the shiny things
08:04:58 <norbert79> just what the player needs
08:05:47 <norbert79> Yet for the downloader I would suggest having a : "Select all unselected" button, so I can easly download all missing GRF's :)
08:06:26 <norbert79> Btw my OpenTTD got larger, now it is around 440 MB, having ALL GRFS included, even past versions, and all the binaries for all the OS
08:06:27 <planetmaker> that was not added on grounds of "choose explicitly"
08:06:59 <norbert79> planetmaker: I see, well, I am a collector though, maybe I am just that 1% :)
08:07:25 <planetmaker> many do, I think. If we add that 99% would do :-P
08:07:58 <norbert79> well I doubt that many users prefer the game having it portable, so running it within one directory only all the time :)
08:08:20 <planetmaker> and you usually don't need "all grfs". You need those for your next game. Thus... you know which you need ;-)
08:09:02 <norbert79> I just love to experiment, and have scenario developer also allowed, but I am not a regular user neither of course, so I know the risk :)
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08:10:00 <norbert79> OpenTTD is something I always come back too, despite whatever game I am addicted to recently...
08:11:20 <dihedral> i've not been adicted to (playing) a game for a long time
08:13:03 <norbert79> But about the rating system, version control is included, so that's not required. I think different policies should be set for different purposed GRFs, like addon cars, then have a set of requirements behalf of that, but town names should have a shorter list, yet included that one question if the GRF does have sideeffects or not
08:14:40 <andythenorth> I would keep to a minimal list of requirements
08:15:18 <Ammler> planetmaker: tell us the truth :-) what is more annoying the support questions you got because someone fiddled around with newgrfs on running game or the questions now from people asking how to change newgrfs on running game?
08:15:38 <andythenorth> 1. is this grf known to have serious problems, either on its own or due to its effect on other grfs
08:16:04 <andythenorth> 2. is this grf considered reasonably complete?
08:16:16 <andythenorth> 3. does this grf implement various action 14 criteria?
08:16:47 <andythenorth> 4. does this grf provide documentation, e.g. at least a useful description?
08:16:47 <norbert79> andythenorth:1.) Oh, well, that's something hard to tell really, since consider the definiton of problems... Take for example having loaded two town names GRF's at the same time... But also consider, that this was each GRF had to be reviewed against all the others GRF's too to be able to answer that question...
08:16:53 <Yexo> Ammler: currently the people asking how to change newgrfs on a running game
08:17:10 <Yexo> however that is because many of them are used to that working, since it did in previous versions
08:17:13 <andythenorth> norbert79: there's no box to tick to say 'this grf has *no* problems'
08:17:26 <norbert79> 2.) Also hard to answer, but yet can be given a close answer behalf of it's goal and it's completiton
08:17:26 <Yexo> the older 1.0 gets, the less support requests we'll get about that
08:17:51 <andythenorth> 2 can be deferred to the development team if they are active
08:17:52 <norbert79> andythenorth: Agree, yet that 1st question in that current form might just brong up more problems, than answers answered...
08:18:45 <norbert79> andythenorth: Like take one GRF with planes and trains replacement, and load Aviatiors GRF.. of course it will bring problems
08:18:56 <norbert79> andythenorth: But it's none of the GRFs fault
08:19:09 <Ammler> and scenario_developer is a kind of insider, which you shouldn't share with newbies?
08:19:25 <norbert79> cause the one already offers planes, because the GRF creator wanted to have like that
08:19:51 <norbert79> so both work perfect, but together they don't, because it was nbever thought having them together...
08:20:04 <norbert79> so on them own both work perfect...
08:20:19 <norbert79> just one what-if scenario really
08:20:20 <Ammler> I mean, that switch would solve the issue of those guys
08:20:34 <planetmaker> Ammler: in essence the scenario developer is a developer tool
08:20:50 <planetmaker> Such not a setting which a newbie should activate
08:21:03 <norbert79> a newbie would never look inside the cfg file anyway
08:21:05 <andythenorth> norbert79: I thought that might be the case that killed question 1 :P
08:21:17 <andythenorth> I'm not sure question 1 is a boolean answer
08:21:18 <Ammler> people asking for editing newgrfs on running game aren't newbies, are they?
08:21:28 <norbert79> andythenorth: Yeah, but does that really make one GRF not perfect?
08:21:36 <norbert79> andythenorth: i REALLY DOUBT :)
08:21:48 <andythenorth> norbert79: I think your point invalidates my question 1
08:21:57 <andythenorth> question 1 can't be meaningfully answered
08:22:03 <norbert79> andythenorth: Indeed
08:22:12 <andythenorth> what is more correct: a grf disables default vehicles, or leaves them?
08:22:24 <norbert79> I would really modify it too like: No serious issues, like crashes full crash of a savegame and such
08:22:36 <norbert79> andythenorth: Depends..
08:22:50 <Yexo> if the grf provides a full set of vehicles it should disable the default ones
08:23:02 <Yexo> there are multiple grfs around that can enable the default vehicles again for those who want that
08:23:06 <andythenorth> Yexo: is that an established community standard?
08:23:20 <norbert79> So far yes, and I love this way too
08:23:25 <Ammler> andythenorth: you still have default engine newgrf
08:23:28 <Yexo> yes, since before the engine pool all vehicle sets had no choice
08:23:31 <Ammler> if you like "reenalbe"
08:23:35 <andythenorth> is not disabling default vehicles a failure to meet a standard?
08:23:50 <norbert79> Take Aviators airfcraft set
08:23:52 <andythenorth> so that one isn't something that could be boolean checked
08:24:01 <norbert79> why would it make sense to have base planes and the additional ones too?
08:24:17 <andythenorth> if I change a track tile to a non-track tile in a station set, I *will* break savegames
08:24:20 <andythenorth> that is a problem
08:24:38 <andythenorth> so it crashes the game, last I checked
08:24:45 <norbert79> If you apply a GRF in a savegame, then you know the risk, this is why you removed the GRF modification in game
08:25:07 <Ammler> andythenorth: only if a train is at that station, afaik
08:25:14 <norbert79> alright, not feeling skilled enough typing down tousands of lines in a flash :D
08:25:32 <andythenorth> does bananas handle that case for me?
08:25:37 <andythenorth> assuming same grfid, no action 14
08:26:22 <andythenorth> or does it just load the newer grf into my savegame?
08:27:05 <andythenorth> if the latter, then it means you can download content from untrusted 3rd parties that can DoS your game
08:27:17 <andythenorth> with no warning, even from a well-intentioned grf author
08:27:20 <planetmaker> no action14 means there's no newgrf version. It will take then a random one of those with the same grfID around
08:27:32 <andythenorth> so potential DoS of my game...
08:27:37 <andythenorth> and potential loss of user data
08:27:41 <planetmaker> (if the one used previously had no newgrf version either)
08:27:44 <andythenorth> doesn't seem ideal
08:28:04 <Yexo> if you're going to make new requirements than having an action14 version could be one
08:28:18 <andythenorth> I think action 14 is the broad solution to quite a few of the quality issues
08:28:39 <andythenorth> I have been *strongly* encouraged to use action 14, I think that should be pursued further
08:28:45 <andythenorth> especially now 1.1 is released
08:29:12 <planetmaker> well. grfcodec already complains, if it has no action14
08:29:12 <andythenorth> wrt savegame safety, and parameters, action 14 should be...not enforced...but highly encouraged
08:29:40 <planetmaker> or nforenum. Dunno which
08:29:43 <andythenorth> there's no subjectivity to assessing the action 14 implementation is there
08:29:48 <andythenorth> it's straightforward
08:30:05 <andythenorth> it could even be done by bananas, if it could interpret the grf
08:30:16 <andythenorth> no human needed (tm)
08:31:16 <planetmaker> well, it could. And it would put an end to the possibility to add old(er) newgrfs to bananas
08:31:24 <andythenorth> you wouldn't prevent it
08:31:27 <andythenorth> just raise a flag
08:32:09 <planetmaker> like max_openttd_version 0.7.0 ;-)
08:32:22 <andythenorth> depends how brutal you want to be :)
08:32:25 <planetmaker> then it could be downloaded, if needed (that's good), but not available for general download
08:33:37 <andythenorth> "Bauxite Waggon" raises an interesting case - read the description
08:33:49 <planetmaker> similar like all old versions can be downloaded, but are not generally available (anymore)
08:34:20 <Yexo> heh, why is that one not removed already?
08:34:25 <Yexo> who is the owner anyway?
08:34:48 <Yexo> please read the description in the online content window
08:35:08 <Yexo> "... (To whoever has the authority to do so: Please remove from Bananas)"
08:35:14 <andythenorth> interesting case ;)
08:35:19 <Yexo> s/removed/set max version to 1.0 or so/
08:35:29 <planetmaker> oberhümer obviously. Maybe no one told him to do so
08:35:41 <planetmaker> It's not the most obvious thing to do
08:35:57 <Ammler> he asked here already and we told him how to hide it
08:36:13 <Ammler> or was that someone else
08:36:16 <Yexo> was about to, but I'll leave it to you
08:37:10 <Yexo> how up to date is the 2cc Chimaera addon?
08:37:10 <andythenorth> another criteria: grf name contains typos
08:37:18 <Ammler> planetmaker: and he should "restore" the description :-)
08:37:41 <andythenorth> Yexo: who knows :P There's no useful description, no added date, no modified date etc
08:37:49 <Ammler> Yexo: it is for 1.0 afaik
08:37:57 <andythenorth> is the URL field even useful? Really?
08:38:09 <Yexo> so outdated and should not be available, since 2ccset 1.0 is not available either
08:38:18 <Yexo> andythenorth: yes, via the webinterface
08:39:11 <Ammler> Yexo: let me check, if it is on the shared account
08:39:19 <andythenorth> "no description" should be a boolean quality criteria. It's objective
08:39:57 <Yexo> what about "Arctic Remove SNOW"? A grf like that can only work properly with either original base graphics or OpenGFX, but it doesn't mention either in the description
08:40:17 <planetmaker> Yexo: but the chimeara add-on can be used on its own. E.g. with a non-maglev trainset
08:40:28 <Yexo> Ammler: BaseMod 3.0 and BaseMod 3.2 are both available for download
08:41:11 <Ammler> Yexo: so you have multiple versions allowed?
08:41:26 <Yexo> they're available for download in the online content window
08:41:28 <Ammler> elese those would need different entries
08:41:32 <Yexo> you can't enable multiple versions there
08:41:52 <Ammler> hmm, so how is that possible?
08:42:20 <Yexo> hmm, in the webinterface there is only 1 BaseMod newgrf
08:42:37 <Ammler> Yexo: there is a BaseMod Presets
08:42:44 <Ammler> maybe you confused with that
08:42:54 <planetmaker> Ammler: there's 2x Base Costs and 1x BaseMod presets
08:43:09 <Yexo> ^^ not confused with the presets one
08:43:17 <Ammler> well, you are the bananas experts, tell me why :-)
08:43:26 <norbert79> If you don't enable multiple versions to a mod, how are you able to remove an older version of a savegame, on which you have worked on for months and replacing it with a newer version,s ince you lost the older version?
08:43:56 <Ammler> version 3.0 and 3.2 have same id and same bananas entry
08:44:07 <planetmaker> norbert79: download the missing grfs from the file load dialogue
08:44:08 <andythenorth> norbert79: edge case?
08:44:24 <planetmaker> like download from the MP join lobby works for older newgrfs
08:44:30 <Yexo> norbert79: make sure not to lose newgrfs, just like you make sure not to lose that scenario?
08:44:37 <planetmaker> Ammler: interesting...
08:44:42 <norbert79> planetmaker: Ah, right, new feature in 1.1.0 probably, haven't reviewed latest version in that depth
08:44:54 <Yexo> it also worked that way in 1.0 ;)
08:45:09 <norbert79> Yexo: Probably, but I haven't had such an issue for a long time :)
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08:45:22 <norbert79> Yexo: Lost a track a bit to OpenTTD since I got addicted to a different game :)
08:46:01 <Ammler> also openttd version requirement are for both the same (0.7.2)
08:47:01 <Ammler> planetmaker: Yexo, IMO it is simply, you have enabled multiversion and 3.0 is already in your local repo
08:47:09 <andythenorth> should town names be sub-classed?
08:47:15 <planetmaker> Ammler: I just disabled that setting
08:47:32 * Ammler starts his own openttd then :-P
08:47:35 <Yexo> Ammler: multiversion is disabled and I don't have either 3.0 or 3.2 locally
08:48:08 <Yexo> andythenorth: only if vehicle sets (perhaps per vehicle type) and industry sets are subclassed too
08:48:24 <Ammler> there would also be a version 3.1, which isn't there
08:48:26 <andythenorth> how many classes needed?
08:48:29 <Ammler> that is really strange
08:48:43 <planetmaker> is it a coop grf?
08:48:43 <andythenorth> classes would broadly match to feature bytes in nfo...
08:48:54 <norbert79> maybe the developer never released 3.1
08:49:23 <planetmaker> Ammler: they're indicated incompatible
08:49:30 <planetmaker> 3.2 is only compatible to itself
08:49:39 <planetmaker> thus it makes sense...
08:49:46 <andythenorth> tags aren't working ideally
08:50:01 <planetmaker> no minv = compatible to version itself, nothing more
08:50:29 <Yexo> so? 3.0 should only be available for people that already have 3.0 in a savegame / on a server, not for general download
08:50:34 <Ammler> planetmaker: I already told you that that is wrong, so I can't fix that
08:50:48 <Ammler> default should be version 0
08:50:59 <planetmaker> but... then there should be 3.1, too
08:51:14 <Ammler> you have again used the wrong value as default, you are known for such mistakes :-P
08:51:15 <andythenorth> we can't work it out....how should players? :D
08:51:21 <Yexo> planetmaker: think FIRS, there are multiple incompatible versions on bananas but only 1 shows as possible download
08:51:33 <planetmaker> Ammler: still, set max_openttd_version to 1.0 or so
08:51:51 <Yexo> Ammler: strongly disagree, if you really want compatibility from version 0 you have to think about that and actually set it
08:52:01 <Ammler> planetmaker: it doesn't have vmin set at all, afaik
08:52:07 <Ammler> that is the issue, isn't?
08:52:19 <Yexo> no vmin -> vmin = vcurrent
08:52:20 <planetmaker> not sure. I don't see 3.1 available
08:52:32 <planetmaker> *not sure that's the issue
08:53:00 <Yexo> it isn't, bananas doesn't check the a14 IIRC
08:53:11 <Ammler> I upload a new version with vmin 0, then we see?
08:53:16 <planetmaker> it does not afaik, indeed
08:53:27 <planetmaker> Ammler: just for that sake?
08:53:52 <planetmaker> first edit the max version of 3.0 :-P
08:53:55 <Ammler> [10:51] <planetmaker> Ammler: still, set max_openttd_version to 1.0 or so <-- didn't you mean that?
08:56:29 <Ammler> so there is a difference between no a14 and a14 without mver maybe?
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09:06:57 <planetmaker> of course the error is right. But should it crash?
09:07:53 <dihedral> no, should not :-) should exit cleanly :-D
09:08:39 <dihedral> in fact, i would rather it created the file instead ^^
09:09:00 <planetmaker> that's what I hoped it'd do.
09:09:20 <planetmaker> Inventing a cfg file from scratch is... interesting, if you don't know the exact format ;-)
09:09:27 <planetmaker> nor the items it should contain
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09:13:25 <dihedral> planetmaker, touch grapes.cfg ;-)
09:13:29 <dihedral> the rest it will do for you
09:13:33 <planetmaker> dihedral: I know ;-)
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09:20:24 <MinchinWeb> One thing that I think would be useful with the in-game Bananas screen is a way to copy/open the URL listed
09:20:54 <MinchinWeb> most of them are to the TT-Forums site, and I don't want to type 9-odd random numbers and hope I get it right...
09:20:59 <Yexo> opening a browser is non-trivial to implement cross-platform
09:21:38 <MinchinWeb> could you make the text selectable somehow?
09:21:56 <MinchinWeb> (copy and paste yourself to the webbrowser)
09:22:00 <Yexo> not sure how easy the clipboard is too support
09:22:08 <Yexo> perhaps it's already supported, I don't know
09:22:28 <planetmaker> pasting from clipboard is
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09:22:41 <Ammler> ok, maybe mac too then ;-)
09:22:48 <Ammler> but for sure not with sdl
09:23:12 <planetmaker> but linux has more than one clipboard. Not sure each...
09:23:32 <planetmaker> ctrl+v pastes iirc
09:23:48 <Yexo> I can't get that to paste anything
09:24:02 <Ammler> I know, it works on windows
09:24:17 <Ammler> never was able to c&p on linux
09:24:18 <planetmaker> also on osx. I can't test linux right now
09:24:55 <Ammler> that is why I "asked" for the command option -p
09:25:01 <MinchinWeb> well I can't figure out how to select the text on Windows...
09:25:45 <planetmaker> I only know that pasting into openttd works. Not sure marking and copying works
09:27:19 <MinchinWeb> Perhaps if you could get to the support page easily from the Online Content Form, many of the issues andy et al. were discussing would be less of an issue...
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09:34:53 <norbert79> About Copy paste: Ctrl+Ins and Shift+Ins is one clipboard imho and Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V is the other
09:35:15 <norbert79> sometimes both work to the same clipboard, sometimes those are seperated
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10:14:35 <andythenorth> assuming url / copy and paste are out of the question....
10:14:40 <andythenorth> url shortening service for bananas?
10:20:13 <andythenorth> openttd.org/go/abc123
10:33:08 <andythenorth> how many versions of how many grfs do we expect?
10:33:30 <andythenorth> @calc 26 * 26 * 26
10:33:44 <andythenorth> we could use a three letter code
10:33:53 <andythenorth> a-z only, case insensitive
10:34:04 <andythenorth> if we top out, add another letter :P
10:34:12 <andythenorth> just make the string matching sufficiently smart
10:34:26 * planetmaker doesn't really see much use in url-shortener
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10:34:45 <andythenorth> I thought of it as a sticking plaster
10:34:53 <andythenorth> but it's the same sticking plaster as tinyurl
10:35:11 <andythenorth> tinyurl is....not unpopular
10:35:29 <dihedral> i see no point in such a thing either
10:35:36 <norbert79> me neither... Not necessary
10:35:42 <andythenorth> so lets delete the url field from bananas then
10:35:56 <norbert79> no, URL field can be sueful
10:36:00 <andythenorth> the usability of the current field tends towards zero
10:36:01 <dihedral> the url field is to link to their website, the forums or whatnot
10:36:08 <dihedral> the author does that, not bananas
10:36:10 <norbert79> since when I want to work on a GRF but vcan't start the game in work :)
10:36:24 <andythenorth> the url field has severe usability issues
10:36:37 <andythenorth> two of the possible fixes are unavailable to us
10:36:46 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that is of no use in game
10:36:50 <andythenorth> how does it help?
10:36:52 <planetmaker> you just enter the URL to your project, and the list is comprehensive. No need for any shortening or so
10:36:55 <norbert79> andythenorth: But outside of the game
10:37:01 <dihedral> bananas is not just 'in game' ;-)
10:37:02 <andythenorth> how do you know the url to your project?
10:37:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you know the one of yours? You entered it
10:37:31 <andythenorth> but the player doesn't author projects
10:37:34 <andythenorth> we cross talk :D
10:37:39 <dihedral> planetmaker, you caused havok :-P
10:37:53 <dihedral> you started it all ^^
10:38:09 <dihedral> andythenorth, bananas is not just a "players" thing
10:38:21 <andythenorth> I think it's barely a players thing at the moment at all
10:38:31 <andythenorth> it's just a big black box
10:38:54 <andythenorth> my solution is good
10:38:57 <andythenorth> might be unneeded
10:38:59 <planetmaker> black box is different ;-)
10:39:00 <andythenorth> but it's not bad
10:39:12 <planetmaker> But the URL things needing a change... I don't see why ;-)
10:39:13 <dihedral> your solution does not match the requirements layed down for bananas in the first place :-P
10:39:15 <andythenorth> got to to out - I'll explain later ;)
10:39:28 <andythenorth> keep your arguments fresh :)
10:39:42 * dihedral puts his arguments in the fridge
10:40:08 <norbert79> watch for the expiry date :)
10:40:20 * dihedral freezes boiling water
10:40:29 <dihedral> you never know when you need boiling water ^^
10:42:25 <norbert79> while I guess it's possible somehow, since water boiles on a lower temperature under presure
10:42:46 <norbert79> so I guess reaching that critical pressure might indeed allow freezing boiling water :))
10:43:12 <norbert79> oh, wait, it's the other way around
10:43:34 <norbert79> what about boiling freezing water?
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10:49:13 <planetmaker> it's called triple-point
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11:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> err... just because it's in gaseous form doesn't mean it's actually boiling.
11:05:05 <dihedral> same with sucking air out of it ^^
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11:29:01 * andythenorth boils freezing soup
11:29:05 <andythenorth> and feeds it to the baby
11:30:01 <andythenorth> what is the purpose, in game, of displaying the url field for a newgrf
11:30:07 <andythenorth> in content download window
11:34:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it may not be convenient, but it is of use IMHO
11:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: in the random german town names, i think the suffixes -kirch and -kirchen appear too often
11:47:24 <planetmaker> generally all suffixes are equally likely. But kirch / kirchen are two, thus it may appear as double probability if looked at jointly
11:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's what i mean
11:47:48 <planetmaker> Also I'll not be unhappy about additional suggestions for pre- and suffixes ;-)
11:48:01 <norbert79> This only shows how religious germans are :P
11:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm quite impressed overall, it sounds much more natural than the builtin ones ;)
11:49:25 <planetmaker> there are combinations which "holpern", but... ironing out those is exponentially more work ;-)
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12:21:28 <dihedral> planetmaker, Bad, Schein (esp. fun with the town named 'Heilig' or 'Werfer') ... :-D
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12:26:38 <norbert79> dihedral: Sounds weird though if it begins with Nebel and ends with Werfer :D
12:27:24 <dihedral> ingen is also a nice suffix ^^
12:29:01 <planetmaker> Bad is of course included as prefix.
12:44:43 <dihedral> planetmaker, how about 'i'
12:45:05 <dihedral> iPlochingen iBonn iBerlin
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12:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> AHH... MY EYES... i opened a JPG!
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13:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "Scientists! Investigate!" - "But we're playing Minecraft!" :p
13:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> now i need to investigate what a jelly bean actually is...
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15:08:19 <planetmaker> <__ln__> ummm.. what is an idiomatic way to say "to my luck, and to unluck of someone else ..." in english? 'unluck' is not a real word.
15:08:20 <planetmaker> <supermop> misfortune <-- reference probably
15:20:51 <supermop> but that was yesterday
15:21:49 <planetmaker> IRC is not necessarily concurrent conversation ;-)
15:22:41 <supermop> i mean, no need to thank me
15:22:44 <planetmaker> or real-time is the better word than concurrent
15:27:01 <supermop> brought my .psd file into work today
15:27:31 <planetmaker> bad boy. Good boy. Depends on view, I guess ;-)
15:36:32 <supermop> realized that the modules on rear of the shaft will never be seen, which lets me cut out 25% of the possible variations i need to plan for
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16:42:25 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
16:43:06 <XeryusTC> planetmaker: that is not asking to ask ;)
16:43:20 <supermop> its "telling to ask"
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16:43:48 <flitz> I've added a boolean value to the group struct but I can't get it to be set false by default. I set it false in the constructor and set it also false in the CmdCreateGroup function, but whatever, a newly created group in the game will have this bool set to 1
16:43:51 <planetmaker> "lo and behold: incoming question. Take cover. Now!"?
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16:44:32 <SmatZ> flitz: set a data breakpoint in gdb
16:44:53 <SmatZ> but I think you are doing something wrongly
16:45:10 <SmatZ> like, the variable is "false", but you are reading it incorrectly
16:45:28 <SmatZ> but you for some reason think it's "true", but it's in fact false
16:45:35 <SmatZ> eg., error in measurement technique
16:45:56 <flitz> well, writing this->mybool=false; in the constructor and I test it by printf("%d\n",mybool); and wait for it to output 0 ;)
16:46:34 <SmatZ> can you upload the diff to trunk somewhere?
16:47:02 <SmatZ> or you might be reading some other (local) mybool
16:47:07 <flitz> hm, its a whole lot of stuff regarding the template replacement
16:48:28 <flitz> i've also written a function that takes a group_id and sets this bool regarding this id. when I call this function from the CmdCreateGroup(...) its not working, but when I call it from elsewhere it does
16:48:54 <flitz> I also checked and it is always called for the right groupid
16:49:16 <flitz> my assumption was that I didn't know of some routine that gets called when a new group is created or something like that
16:50:06 <planetmaker> <SmatZ> can you upload the diff to trunk somewhere? <-- ;-) or all discussion about what you do as opposed to intending to do is quite crystal ball reading
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16:59:34 <flitz> or all discussion about what you do as opposed to intending to do is quite crystal ball reading <-- I pretty much told you everything I do, its one single line in the constructor basically ;)
17:00:34 <flitz> upon group creation, the bool is set false as intented, but it is changed without me interfering somehow until a vehicle in this group arrives in the next depot, that is what is puzzling me, because I didn't change a thing about this
17:00:42 <frosch123> all pool items are zero-initialised
17:00:51 <frosch123> so you do not even need the stuff in the constructor
17:01:04 <SmatZ> planetmaker: hehe, yeah :)
17:04:54 <SmatZ> flitz: try setting the data breakpoint, you are probably doing something wrong
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17:27:44 <supermop> ok time to get lunch
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18:33:34 <dihedral> # i wonder how and i wonder why ...
18:35:50 <Belugas> # I wonder what tomorrow has ahead for me
18:36:16 <Belugas> #or if i'm even in his mind at all
18:36:37 <dihedral> whenever i hear your music you sort of are :-P
18:36:45 <Belugas> # sometimes i sit and gaze through sleepless dreams
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18:38:35 <dihedral> nice "little" car :-)
18:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i drove a mini for a week, it's totally bad...
18:43:26 <supermop> i don't like the new ones
18:44:34 <supermop> they feel so 'big' in the handling
18:45:09 <supermop> i wonder if the 1-series feels the same
18:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the windshield is tiny... if you have any kind of comfortable seating position, you can't see any traffic lights
18:45:34 <supermop> also the gearbox felt too sloppy
18:45:46 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, it's not a mini mini
18:46:01 <dihedral> it's the countryman :-)
18:46:08 <supermop> i'd prefer a real mini, not these bloated new ones
18:46:13 <dihedral> i have my testdrive on monday
18:46:23 <supermop> and definately not an suv
18:46:49 <dihedral> cannot fit people on the backsears in the mini cooper
18:46:51 <supermop> although i havent driven the suv
18:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i don't see how making a scaled up version of the same design changes the relative size of the windshield compared to the rest of the car...
18:48:33 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: in case you have missed some geometry lessons: if you just scale up the size, it doesn't change any angles.
18:50:13 <supermop> eddi, what do you drive?
18:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> a renault 19 most of the time...
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18:51:00 <dihedral> i do not think they just scaled the model upwards
18:51:57 <dihedral> even if they did - the seating position of the driver does not scale the same way due to some limitations of the human body :-P
18:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: i still have my doubts...
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19:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> cycles_found = this->EliminateCycles(path, node, node) || cycles_found; <-- am i wrong or can this be shortened to cycles_found |= this->EliminateCycles(path, node, node);?
19:05:42 <__ln__> eddi is wrong or it can be shortened?
19:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... may be dangerous, if one expects side effects of the function
19:06:16 <SmatZ> in both cases the function will be called
19:06:41 <Eddi|zuHause> sure? even if it is already true?
19:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> if you say so... i don't know these details...
19:07:03 <SmatZ> only && and || have "quick exit" semantics
19:08:20 <dihedral> i would have expected |= to be bitwise
19:09:36 <SmatZ> it will make cycles_found == {0, 1}
19:09:57 <dihedral> and cycles_found = resets the value of the var, and does not simply OR it
19:10:26 <dihedral> e.g. if the method returns 5 ?
19:10:34 <dihedral> c/c++ would probably complain
19:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the variable is bool, yes
19:10:39 <dihedral> other lanugages might now
19:10:55 <SmatZ> if it's a boo, it doesn't really matter
19:14:37 <planetmaker> to boo or not to boo?
19:17:20 <MinchinWeb> does anyone have experience with NoAI?
19:18:05 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask
19:19:21 <MinchinWeb> that's too bad - the update to 1.1 seems to make it so the AI can't get a list of available bridges
19:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been lots of changes to AIList
19:21:51 <MinchinWeb> but breaking bridges is rather a pain
19:22:06 <MinchinWeb> especially when it worked before
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19:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you want to show us the code that does not work, instead of bitching around abstractly...
19:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the AI forum may help you.
19:24:23 <MinchinWeb> sure is there a pastebin somewhere on the site?
19:25:55 <dihedral> pastebin.com will do
19:26:01 <dihedral> or .ca or .org or ...
19:29:50 <MinchinWeb> it will be listed as 'WmBasic' under the AI menu
19:30:07 <xvd> I am using openttd 1.1.0, and it seems the option to allow mammoth trains is gone - followed by the inability to create trains longer than the normal amount (10-15)
19:30:32 <dihedral> xvd, it changed, yes
19:30:47 <dihedral> iirc it's a variable setting though
19:31:02 <dihedral> have a look in your openttd.cfg, you'll probably find something suitable :-P
19:31:33 <V453000> afaik there is a max train length in the actual gui??
19:31:56 <xvd> yes, openttd.cfg still has mammoth_trains=true from earlier on - it's like it disappeared from the gui
19:32:13 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: Commit by rubidium :: r22004 /trunk/src (newgrf.cpp table/settings.h) (2011-02-06 21:31:33 UTC)
19:32:14 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: -Change [FS#4471]: always report mammoth trains are disabled to NewGRFs, and allow the maximum train length to be modified in multiplayer as well
19:32:19 <dihedral> have a look for _other_ entries in the config
19:32:28 <SmatZ> xvd: openttd.cfg never looses invalid settings
19:32:40 <SmatZ> so they are preserved when you use different openttd versions
19:32:51 <dihedral> MinchinWeb, so you are talking about line 35 of your main.nut ;-)
19:33:22 <SmatZ> hmm maybe that wasn't the correct commit
19:33:23 <MinchinWeb> dihedral: yeah it breaks on line 35
19:33:44 <xvd> Wait, are you saying the mammoth train feature moved to a newgrf? (Since there is a "Long vehicles v4" GRF under inactive GRFs)
19:34:04 <SmatZ> xvd: no, now you can select maximum train length instead
19:34:23 <dihedral> xvd: mamothtrains is gone! a new setting has taken it's place
19:34:28 <dihedral> the new setting can be found in the config
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19:35:16 <xvd> but there is indeed no GUI entry for max_train_length, right?
19:35:57 <SmatZ> there was one for mammoth_trains?
19:36:28 <Wolf01> we could introduce a "removed settings due to cleanup" gui with ctrl+click on the advanced settings
19:37:11 <Alberth> just randomly remove one of the settings each time :p
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19:44:32 <MinchinWeb> dihedral, they appear to have fixed a typo... lengTH but I didn't think I had a typo before...
19:45:37 <dihedral> so it's all sorted then ;-) wonderful
19:47:53 <MinchinWeb> there's a reason I took Engineering and not English... ;-)
19:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> xvd: there certainly is a gui entry
20:12:03 <fonsinchen> Oh, there's a width parameter to GfxDrawLine now.
20:12:13 <fonsinchen> That's nice for the linkgraph overlay.
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21:07:27 <dihedral> interesting - i restarted my router without znc being affected .. :-P
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22:27:30 <xQR> is there anyone willing to explain a curious guy why since 1.1.0 map downloads seem to be so much faster? how did you optimized that? or has my line just suddenly improved? :P
22:27:54 <Yexo> maps are now compressed with lzma
22:28:02 <Yexo> which makes them somewhat smaller
22:28:49 <xQR> "somewhat" lol - on our bigger server where the map usually is 2 MB the download time went down from 5 seconds to 0.5 seconds
22:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> also, the download starts earlier, because the beginning is sent before the server finished compressing all of it
22:29:36 <xQR> well the result is amazing, i must say
22:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... when using secure.openttd.org/wiki, then in-wiki-links are broken
22:42:40 <SmatZ> don't use secure.openttd.org/wiki
22:42:57 <Yexo> hmm, that worked fine a few days ago
22:43:33 * SmatZ apologises for the non-funny remark
22:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: all links miss the /wiki part
22:44:11 <Yexo> I can see that, now idea why it's broken though
22:44:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and i can't find a wiki page explaining the transparency gui
22:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... weird, if i go backwards in my cache, it seemed to have worked a few minutes ago even...
22:48:01 <xQR> when Luukland asked me whether i know that problem i told him i don't
22:48:08 <xQR> but now i just set one of my servers to have a quite huge map
22:48:17 <xQR> and tried to connect with 2 clients at the same time
22:48:26 <xQR> the second client is just thrown back to the main menu
22:48:39 <xQR> if it tries to connect while the first one is still downloading the map
22:49:18 <xQR> i guess the only reason why i haven't noticed it yet is that the map downloading is so fast now that it doesn't happen that much to have 2 people try to download the map at the same time
22:49:39 <xQR> so i still think you did a great improvement there, but ofc that issue has to be fixed :>
22:52:18 <xQR> let's see whether -d net=3 is giving some more information about what happens
22:58:18 <xQR> not really - just shows me how the second connection is coming but then closed again immediately
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