IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-26
00:01:00 <DanMacK> ahh yeah
00:01:08 <DanMacK> it is kinda creepy isn't it
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01:00:25 <confound> with nars and any other set that has multiple models of a given engine, am I stuck manually upgrading them?
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01:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. because they are doing it wrong.
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01:15:40 <confound> blah. thanks
01:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the common workaround is to replace everything to another (similar) engine and then back again in the next wave
01:17:51 <confound> that's what I was planning on doing
01:17:57 <confound> though it's kind of terrible.
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01:41:34 <Wolf01> 'night
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02:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause> man this OzTrans guy is a worse control freak than MB...
02:03:06 <supermop> yeah
02:03:29 <supermop> most of the can set thread is like that
02:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i just skimmed parts of it... and ran across a line like "you can't use these bridges outside of this pack"
02:10:26 <supermop> there seems to be a lot of resistance to pretty basic ottd features
02:10:38 * DanMacK doesn't agree with that, but is kind of going with the flow right now
02:11:06 <DanMacK> I've tried talking to him and he just gets pissy
02:11:19 <supermop> don't agree with ottd features, or don't think that there is resistance/backlash
02:12:21 <DanMacK> ahh well... I just draw now
02:12:30 <DanMacK> Night all
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02:13:11 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> man this OzTrans guy is a worse control freak than MB... <-- that's not new
02:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i know. i just wanted to say it outloud
02:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm also pretty sure it's not the first time i said that :p
02:16:24 <supermop> I wonder if I should draw, or work more on my timetable game
02:17:07 <supermop> or code, i am way behind on that
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03:09:57 <luQue> mh
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07:59:54 <andythenorth> mornings
08:00:15 <dihedral> good morning
08:01:05 <Alberth> good morning
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08:59:31 <ranjiid> hi, a question: lets say I have written a new member function in struct ship say x(). when I have a general 'Vehicle *v', and then do 'Ship *s = (Ship*) v;' and then try to 's->x()', I get:
08:59:58 <ranjiid> an error for invalid use of incomplete type struct Ship. How do I get around that ?
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09:06:35 <Alberth> #include the definition of Ship
09:07:23 <ranjiid> ouch ... so obvious, thanks
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09:13:12 <Terkhen> good morning
09:15:24 <Terkhen> SmatZ: and the match was taking place in my city, but I don't like football much
09:17:34 <dihedral> cheers Terkhen - me neither :-P
09:20:37 <dihedral> brb
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09:21:34 * andythenorth does ponder
09:21:50 <andythenorth> should it be possible to make money by starting a game with a few trams hauling coal?
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09:22:21 <Wolf01> 'morning
09:22:29 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
09:22:38 <dihedral> hello Wolf01
09:22:38 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I usually do that when playing with road vehicles only
09:22:58 <planetmaker> moin
09:23:02 <Terkhen> hi planetmaker
09:23:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: why not?
09:23:30 <planetmaker> would be pointless, if they made no money
09:25:34 <dihedral> hello pm
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09:26:25 <andythenorth> that the trams make money, but not enough to cover loan interest and property maint-en
09:26:31 <andythenorth> maintenance
09:26:47 * andythenorth has interrupted ]]['
09:26:50 <andythenorth> typing due to babies
09:27:07 <andythenorth> if I make them too profitable,
09:27:16 <andythenorth> it's a problem for balance against trains
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09:30:10 <planetmaker> Well. Trams are sort of trains, aren't they?
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09:30:30 <planetmaker> what makes trains more profitable are the larger capacity and higher speed
09:30:38 <Terkhen> hmm... I remember making money with them, but maybe it was before HEQS costs were tweaked
09:30:43 <planetmaker> which is not of importance for short routes
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09:38:15 <andythenorth> hmm
09:38:27 <andythenorth> it helps profit if I don't make stupid mistakes in my test game :P
09:39:02 <andythenorth> I need super-fast-ffwd
09:40:43 <Terkhen> get a faster pc :)
09:41:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: resize the window, or minimize it
09:41:41 <Terkhen> disable animations
09:41:42 <planetmaker> and switch off full details and animation
09:41:59 <andythenorth> done
09:42:00 <andythenorth> thanks
09:42:26 <planetmaker> just don't forget - like myself - to enable full details and animation when testing sprites ;-)
09:42:42 <planetmaker> those are annoying mistakes which otherwise creep in ;-)
09:42:46 <andythenorth> "shame it's not multi-threaded" :P
09:43:06 <andythenorth> it's using 94% of CPU
09:43:19 <andythenorth> which is quite efficient
09:43:35 <andythenorth> I have about 22% idle though
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09:43:59 <andythenorth> hmm
09:44:08 <andythenorth> so I have three trams, and I'm losing about £2k per year net
09:44:44 <andythenorth> I have enough loan left to buy about another 100 trams and build routes
09:44:54 <andythenorth> I reckon that would cover the interest :P
09:45:20 <andythenorth> looking at amortisation - a tram would repay it's purchase cost in ~10 years
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11:15:20 <DanMacK> Hey all
11:35:22 <andythenorth> hey DanMacK
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11:40:09 <andythenorth> grr
11:40:17 <andythenorth> can't make my trams expensive enough :(
11:40:39 <andythenorth> I'd have to reset base cost across HEQS
11:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't balance trams properly as long as the refit cost for a medium tram is the same as the refit cost for a long tram
11:43:37 <andythenorth> I'll overlook that for now
11:43:43 <andythenorth> it's a change to newgrf spec
11:43:48 <andythenorth> and one I'm hoping doesn't happen
11:43:55 <andythenorth> implies a *lot* of work by newgrf authors
11:45:56 * andythenorth is not convinced by loading speed of articulated rvs
11:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> a newgrf refit cost callback, input is the current cargo type, cargo subtype, new cargo type and new cargo subtype
11:46:11 <andythenorth> bleargh
11:46:18 <andythenorth> imagine the varaction 2s for the mappings :(
11:46:19 <andythenorth> horrible
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11:46:28 <andythenorth> @32!
11:46:32 <andythenorth> @calc 32!
11:46:32 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
11:46:54 <andythenorth> petrol -> milk costs £xyz
11:47:00 <andythenorth> petrol -> sheep costs £pdq
11:47:08 <andythenorth> sheep -> milk costs £abc
11:47:17 <andythenorth> bleargh
11:47:19 <andythenorth> :D
11:47:30 <andythenorth> trams unload too fast
11:47:36 <andythenorth> I could drop the loading speed I guess
11:52:04 <andythenorth> it's slightly annoying that clone respects cargo refit subtypes
11:52:08 <andythenorth> but auto-replace doesn't
11:55:17 <DanMacK> Hey Andy
11:58:38 <Yexo> <andythenorth> @calc 32! <- it wouldn't be that big, 'just' 32*32 (for 32 cargos)
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11:59:59 <st6> i just downloaded openttd and the mousescroll zoom is not working
12:00:09 <st6> it worked in the 0.7 version tho =)
12:00:31 <st6> is there a setting for it somewhere?
12:02:14 <dihedral> possibly
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12:02:38 <dihedral> settings are found, where they usually are, in advanced settings, or in the openttd.cfg file
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12:04:12 <st6> function scroll wheel: zoom map
12:04:16 <st6> yet it doesnt work
12:04:35 <st6> it worked few minutes ago with the 0.7 version
12:04:38 <andythenorth> @calc 32^2
12:04:38 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
12:04:43 <andythenorth> @calc 32*32
12:04:43 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1024
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12:12:50 <andythenorth> planetmaker: a parameter for this is trivial?
12:13:16 <andythenorth> I would just change the climate mask for each vehicle, depending on the value of PARAM_X
12:13:27 <andythenorth> but I'm not sure how to do that quite
12:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> with an action 6?
12:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also just skip the action 3 with an action 7/9
12:15:34 <andythenorth> safer to change the climate availability
12:15:44 <andythenorth> if the player changes the param during game...
12:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> possible
12:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, then use an action 6 to modify the mask
12:16:48 <andythenorth> one line of code
12:16:50 <andythenorth> ish
12:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, per vehicle
12:18:35 <andythenorth> action 6?
12:18:41 <andythenorth> or action 7 skipping an action 0
12:18:43 <andythenorth> ?
12:19:04 <Yexo> do all your vehicles have the same climate mask currently?
12:19:25 <andythenorth> I believe so
12:19:29 <Yexo> if so, I'd make one parameter contain either 0 or the correct climate mask depending on a user parameter and make the action6 unconditional
12:19:49 <andythenorth> ok
12:19:52 <andythenorth> lets make it so :P
12:20:09 <andythenorth> I have to split them into n groups, so there'll be n parameters
12:20:13 <andythenorth> but the pattern is the same
12:20:54 <andythenorth> the action 6 goes before or after the action 0?
12:21:19 <andythenorth> or they can all go together?
12:21:36 <andythenorth> i.e. I could put all the vehicle IDs into a single cpp template file for this?
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12:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the action 6 must be directly before the action 0
12:33:36 * andythenorth sometimes wishes CPP had 'with [list of defines] use #include'
12:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> because action 6 modifies the next line
12:34:07 <andythenorth> ok I'll template that in
12:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean? you can put the #include in an #ifdef?
12:34:44 <andythenorth> I mean an iterator of some kind
12:34:57 <andythenorth> nvm
12:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ah.
12:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> right
12:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that can be done as well, but too complicated things would take more than one pass
12:35:47 <andythenorth> not needed in this case anyway
12:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and the concept you search is not "with" but "foreach"
12:36:43 <andythenorth> ok
12:38:45 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, it's relatively easy. But I guess you got your answer already :-)
12:39:26 <andythenorth> I have to use the offset precisely?
12:39:31 <andythenorth> not the property number?
12:39:44 <planetmaker> yes
12:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the offset. action6 doesn't know about properties
12:39:53 <andythenorth> that's understandable, but very fragile :P
12:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why you should switch to nml ;)
12:40:16 <andythenorth> I could use a second action 0?
12:40:24 <andythenorth> specifically to set climate mask?
12:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
12:40:41 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have as many action 0 for the same vehicle as you like
12:43:01 * andythenorth wtfs
12:43:06 <andythenorth> I have disabled all trams somehow :D
12:44:01 <andythenorth> buy menu doesn't respect pinning :P
12:47:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: would you help me with the param elements?
12:47:50 <andythenorth> think the action 6 works
12:48:19 * andythenorth only has 0.5 typing hands free
12:48:20 <planetmaker> yes, I'll add tonight during the football match
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12:51:11 <andythenorth> I'll template in the action 6 stuff now
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13:21:47 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker: you did not exactly read the suggested license text, did you? :p
13:22:03 <frosch123> hmm, actually pm might have
13:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> ;)
13:22:42 * andythenorth sees someone else being smacked between the eyes by vehicle prop 1D
13:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i may have been a little too subtle ;)
13:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but pm is right, he kinda is like a week early
13:26:01 <frosch123> should be a nice license for the next i* port :)
13:29:27 <andythenorth> action 14 is somehow cached?
13:29:42 <frosch123> you need to rescan grfs
13:29:46 <andythenorth> I have to restart to see changes
13:29:50 <andythenorth> rescan failed for some reason
13:30:40 <frosch123> hmm, if "rescan" does not work, then it might only check for new files
13:31:04 <frosch123> ("rescan"!="reload", just in case)
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13:39:45 <andythenorth> hmm
13:39:50 <andythenorth> maybe I can do this without planetmaker
13:39:54 <andythenorth> I have action 6
13:39:58 <andythenorth> I have action 14
13:40:05 <andythenorth> now all I need is some way to tie them together
13:40:08 <andythenorth> any clues?
13:40:20 <andythenorth> specific to this:
13:40:32 <andythenorth> the action 14 parameters are bools
13:41:09 <andythenorth> I need action 14 bool value 1 to give me 0F for my action 6
13:42:03 <glx> and what if it's 0 ?
13:42:14 <andythenorth> 0
13:42:19 <andythenorth> 00h
13:42:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: is there already any code?
13:42:57 <glx> you could just do bool * 0x0F
13:43:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: in the HEQS repo
13:43:13 <glx> maybe with something to ensure it's 0 or 1
13:43:23 <andythenorth> sprites/nfo/templates/group_availability/rv_availability
13:43:25 <glx> or test for != 0
13:43:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: i mean, do you already have the a14?
13:43:32 <andythenorth> yes
13:46:02 <andythenorth> if I somehow AND with 0F, does that work
13:46:09 <andythenorth> then I get 00h or 0Fh?
13:47:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: add a action 9 to skip the action 6 depending on the parameters
13:47:33 <glx> won't work with AND
13:47:52 <frosch123> then put one value in the action 0, and put the alternative value in action 6
13:47:55 <glx> 1 AND F = 1
13:47:58 <andythenorth> here's my stub code so far
13:47:58 <andythenorth>
13:48:08 <andythenorth> THIS_VEHICLE_GROUP provides the parameter number
13:48:50 <andythenorth> could just use two action 0s? skipping conditionally?
13:49:18 <frosch123> or that :)
13:49:21 <andythenorth> hmm
13:49:33 <andythenorth> that's action 7 I guess
13:49:52 <glx> or 9 (never remember which one to use)
13:49:57 <frosch123> if you use two aciton 0 then action 7, if you are going for action6 then action 9
13:50:35 <andythenorth> if players can change this in game?
13:50:38 <andythenorth> which is better?
13:50:45 <andythenorth> or is that not possible...
13:50:51 <frosch123> that makes no difference
13:51:04 <frosch123> you can only change parameters when reloading newgrfs
13:51:25 <andythenorth> so the activation / initialisation distinction doesn't matter here?
13:51:54 <frosch123> the parameters do not change between these phases
13:52:05 <frosch123> if you change the parameters, everything is loaded from scratch
13:52:07 <andythenorth> so I need an action 7 to check a parameter...
13:52:12 <andythenorth> maybe I can copy one from somewhere...
13:52:25 <frosch123> it is not that hard :p
13:52:49 <andythenorth> just need to know which var to check
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13:54:00 <andythenorth> hmm
13:54:09 <andythenorth> can't see how to specify which param to check
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13:54:48 <andythenorth> do I just use the parameter number?
13:54:58 <andythenorth> are all params < 80h ?
13:55:46 <frosch123>
13:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: params 00-7F can be set by user, params 80-FF are internal values
13:58:44 <andythenorth> he
13:58:46 <andythenorth> works
13:58:48 <andythenorth> thanks
13:59:11 <frosch123> cool :)
14:00:49 <frosch123> btw. make sure you set the parameters to "enabled" by default (using action D, not only 14), so you keep compatibility with old games, which most likely did not set higher parameters
14:02:46 <andythenorth> hmm
14:02:55 <andythenorth> I'd better look into that
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14:04:07 <andythenorth> my old savegame is compatible
14:04:10 <andythenorth> don't know why...
14:04:22 <andythenorth> params are not set
14:04:34 <frosch123> you need a game from before you added the stuff to a14
14:04:36 <andythenorth> ah
14:04:41 <andythenorth> I have that
14:04:50 <andythenorth> but it explicitly checks 0 for disabling
14:04:54 <frosch123> or a game from 1.0.x whcih does not know a14 :)
14:05:05 <andythenorth> if param is not's not 0 (anymore)
14:05:15 <andythenorth> that was an issue in FIRS once IIRC
14:05:27 <andythenorth> or I recall wrong perhaps
14:05:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: but you use parameters 20+ in initialization.pnfo
14:05:49 <frosch123> using higher parameters causes all parameters before to be defined
14:06:26 <andythenorth> I'll look into action D
14:07:37 <andythenorth> 6 * 9 0D GROUP_TRAMS \D- 00 FF \dx00000001
14:07:41 <andythenorth> ??
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14:08:55 <andythenorth> hmm
14:09:01 <andythenorth> that's set them to 0
14:09:58 <andythenorth> copy and paste is not a good way to guess :D
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14:17:39 <frosch123> <- somone knows, why the earthquake cares about the road painting and follows them?
14:18:09 * andythenorth has made a working-ish action D
14:18:12 <andythenorth> but is puzzled
14:18:26 <andythenorth> so the value must be != 0, because my vehicles show
14:18:38 <andythenorth> but the newgrf param window shows it as 0 (in ottd 0.7.4)
14:18:59 <andythenorth> and setting 0 doesn't hide the vehicles
14:19:33 <frosch123> did you set the action d flag "only apply if not defined yet"?
14:19:43 <andythenorth> nope
14:19:49 <andythenorth> that would be the issue I guess
14:19:53 <SmatZ> frosch123: because the road is made with each road line separated, so there is a crack between lanes?
14:20:05 <SmatZ> so the ground breaks easier there
14:20:08 <andythenorth> can't escape adding the 80 ?
14:20:27 <frosch123> andythenorth: no :/
14:20:34 <frosch123> SmatZ: might be :)
14:21:08 <andythenorth> hmm
14:21:13 <andythenorth> this is somewhat fail
14:21:14 <andythenorth> :(
14:22:24 <andythenorth> the params are defaulting to 0
14:22:34 <andythenorth> they are created, but with the wrong value :(
14:22:35 <andythenorth> -1 * 5 0D GROUP_TRAMS 80 FF FF \dx00000001
14:22:39 <andythenorth> this in ottd 0.7.4 still
14:23:16 <frosch123> where did you put that line?
14:23:32 <frosch123> you need to do it before the stuff with params 20+ is done
14:23:41 <andythenorth> initialization.pnfo
14:23:51 <andythenorth> above the params 20+ stuff
14:24:19 * andythenorth will commit
14:24:26 <andythenorth> or past
14:25:15 <andythenorth>
14:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: SmatZ is right: it's the weakest point due to the construction method
14:30:04 <planetmaker> frosch123: I first answered, then read the license, then added the 1st April sentence ;-)
14:30:16 <frosch123> make: *** No rule to make target `../templates/group_availability/train_availability.tnfo', needed by `heqs.nfo'. Stop.
14:30:25 <andythenorth> bah
14:30:39 <andythenorth> I'll commit
14:30:45 <andythenorth> it's not 100% working, but not broken
14:31:21 <andythenorth> cooked chicken, 6 days out of date: eat / don't eat?
14:32:00 <frosch123> how much are 6 days compared to the total age?
14:32:10 <andythenorth> not sure
14:32:11 <andythenorth> smells ok
14:32:27 * andythenorth will eat, report back later
14:32:53 <Zuu> As far as you cooked it before the "end date" it should be fine to eat it for a few more days.
14:33:12 <Zuu> Also depends on if it was a frozen chicken or raw checken I suppose.
14:33:40 <__ln__> Food poisoning is usually not fatal.
14:34:51 <andythenorth> boring though
14:36:50 <frosch123> hmm, do strings liks "512x" really need a german translation? :p
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14:37:25 <planetmaker> :-) No
14:37:45 <planetmaker> but without they count as untranslated
14:37:59 <frosch123> does someone check that?
14:38:17 <planetmaker> where?
14:38:29 <frosch123> heqs
14:38:30 <frosch123> a14
14:38:46 <planetmaker> there most probably at most andy or myself maybe
14:39:07 <andythenorth> not me ;)
14:39:08 <planetmaker> though... if it uses the same thing as firs. Then it gets annoying
14:39:37 <planetmaker> because then the check script will report it always as untranslated. Which is... annoying ;-)
14:39:55 <planetmaker> when checking languages
14:40:11 <frosch123> oh dear, when you start 1.0.x the newgrf window comes as a shock :s
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14:41:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: what's the problem? the resulting nfo looks fine and it works fine for me in 1.0
14:42:14 <andythenorth> hmm
14:42:20 <andythenorth> odd results in 0.7.4
14:42:26 <andythenorth> vehicles are hidden
14:42:35 <andythenorth> i.e. params default to 0
14:43:43 <planetmaker> yes. It doesn't know a14, thus default is 0
14:44:00 <frosch123> it also works fine in 0.7
14:44:05 <andythenorth> ho
14:44:09 <andythenorth> ship it!
14:44:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: we added action d to set defaults
14:44:22 <planetmaker> frosch123: but not defaults != 0 w/o a14 and ^
14:44:30 <planetmaker> :-)
14:45:12 <frosch123> <- planetmaker
14:45:26 <frosch123> [15:44] <planetmaker> frosch123: but not defaults != 0 w/o a14 and ^ <- what?
14:45:54 <planetmaker> you wrote that while I typed ;-) Thus "... and what you said"
14:46:04 <frosch123> ok :)
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15:03:07 <MinchinWeb> What does 'IIRC' mean?
15:04:07 <frosch123>
15:05:40 <MinchinWeb> thanks
15:32:23 <andythenorth> does this issue really matter?
15:32:27 <andythenorth> I might bounce it...
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15:35:14 <supermop> what issue?
15:35:47 <andythenorth> the one linked
15:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the one with "issue" in the link name ;)
15:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cb36 sounds like the right place
15:36:31 <SmatZ> Fatal error: can't create ai/ai_scanner.o: Read-only file system
15:36:33 <SmatZ> humm
15:36:39 <frosch123> cb 36 weight is available sinc r21058
15:36:46 <andythenorth> i can do it
15:36:50 <SmatZ> # LANG=C mount -o remount,rw /home
15:36:52 <SmatZ> mount: you must specify the filesystem type
15:36:53 <andythenorth> but do I care?
15:36:57 * SmatZ backupped his files and is going to reboot
15:37:04 <SmatZ> I wonder what broke :P
15:37:19 <frosch123> remount read-only on error?
15:37:32 <SmatZ> well, it's mounted
15:37:49 <SmatZ> but now something broke and it states it's a ro fs
15:37:55 <SmatZ> and it can't remount to rw
15:38:30 <frosch123> /dev/sda1 on /usr type ext2 (rw,noatime,errors=remount-ro) <- there are mount options to remount the fs ro when there is trouble
15:39:04 <SmatZ> /dev/sdb5 on /home type reiserfs (rw,noatime)
15:39:19 <SmatZ> mount doesn't show any "errors=", but maybe that's the default
15:40:07 <SmatZ> REISERFS warning: reiserfs-5090 is_tree_node: node level 18527 does not match to the expected one 1
15:40:08 <SmatZ> REISERFS error (device sdb5): vs-5150 search_by_key: invalid format found in block 110428. Fsck?
15:40:10 <SmatZ> REISERFS (device sdb5): Remounting filesystem read-only
15:40:11 <SmatZ> right :)
15:42:08 * andythenorth rejects the tram issue
15:42:11 <SmatZ> related log
15:42:12 <andythenorth> as no-one cares :D
15:43:55 <SmatZ> nice the systems remounts to ro when there are problems on HDD, so there is a chance the damage to data is as little as possible :)
15:47:19 <glx> prevents accidental overwriting
15:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but when the reiser tree is wrong, you are seriously fucked up
15:51:11 <SmatZ> thanks :P
15:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> better copy everything off the drive and reformat than trying to rebuild the tree
15:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> rebuilding the reiser tree can have all sorts of side effects, like replacing perfectly good files with older versions of the same file
15:52:38 <SmatZ> interesting
15:52:38 <andythenorth> bbl
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15:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> but do I care? <-- yes, i care
15:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, too little, too late.
15:57:01 <SmatZ> :)
15:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but some things should be done right the first time...
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16:39:54 <D_Cent> hey friends
16:40:12 <D_Cent> could you pls help me with an issue?
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16:40:34 <planetmaker> @topic get -3
16:40:34 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
16:40:58 <D_Cent> i am playing multiplayer against someone else and want my train to stop at his station - is that possible?
16:41:09 <planetmaker> not in default openttd
16:41:24 <planetmaker> there's a terribly outdated infrastructure sharing branch floating around
16:41:48 <D_Cent> ok, thanks
16:42:00 <planetmaker> welcome
16:44:52 <planetmaker> D_Cent, the only way to exchange goods in default openttd with another company is to use the same oil rig as transfer station ;-)
16:46:37 <D_Cent> alright, thanks!
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16:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: don't give people an advice how to trigger corner case bugs! :p
17:01:13 <supermop> what is the difference between 'edge case' and 'corner case'?
17:01:28 <andythenorth> wiki
17:01:47 <andythenorth> edge case occurs when just one parameter is at max / out of condition
17:01:59 <andythenorth> corner case only occurs when two parameters are at max / out of condition
17:02:19 <andythenorth> e.g. your power plant gets hit by a tsunami && the diesel generators have a fault
17:02:22 <andythenorth> etc
17:02:50 <andythenorth> many severe failures are corner cases
17:03:05 <andythenorth> engineering is moderately good at spotting edge cases, but not so good at corner cases
17:05:14 <MinchinWeb> so you hope the 'factors of safety' are high enough!
17:06:45 <MinchinWeb> after studying engineering for many years, I remember being surprise at first at how much 'calculated hand waving' was involved
17:06:51 <MinchinWeb> :)
17:07:10 <andythenorth> 'how do you know that's the right number?'
17:07:17 <andythenorth> "that's the number where it doesn't fall down"
17:07:23 <andythenorth> "how do you know if doesn't fall down"
17:07:29 <andythenorth> "well it hasn't yet"
17:07:36 <MinchinWeb> lol...basically
17:08:14 <MinchinWeb> and when it does fall down, you go 'oops' and bump up the number on everything from there out and cross your fingers again :)
17:08:55 <supermop> so there is no differentiation between say 2 or 4 factors being out of anticipated ranges?
17:09:04 <supermop> in terms of terminology?
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17:14:04 <andythenorth> BULK is such a broken cargo
17:14:08 <andythenorth> class
17:14:29 <andythenorth> it's completely stupid that pretty much every other cargo ends up as piece goods or liquids
17:14:58 <supermop> yeah
17:15:17 <supermop> cargo classes are a bit of a let down right now
17:15:43 <andythenorth> they're broken by such a small stupid amount
17:15:58 <andythenorth> and only one man in germany is allowed to decide what they are
17:16:01 <andythenorth> it's very frustrating
17:16:20 <andythenorth> (on the scale of "things that don't matter much in real life")
17:16:41 <andythenorth> how are they implemented in ottd?
17:16:50 <andythenorth> are they anything other than an agreed convention?
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17:31:14 <frosch123> passenger, mail and special are important to ottd, the rest does not matter
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17:33:18 <frosch123> anyway, there are already tons of subtile cargo classes, like covered and oversized
17:33:23 <frosch123> does it really need more?
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17:35:31 <Lars_> Anyone here?
17:35:45 <frosch123> around 131
17:35:54 <Lars_> But active ;)
17:37:56 <Yexo> obviously yes ;)
17:38:08 <Lars_> ;)
17:38:18 <Yexo> @topic get -3
17:38:18 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Don't ask to ask, just ask
17:38:32 <Lars_> Well, I have a question about developing :)
17:38:37 <supermop> what if the cargo classes instead described the type of container that would usually hold that substance, would that be more intuitive?
17:38:52 <supermop> like 'hopper' and 'flatbed'
17:40:51 <andythenorth> all that's missing is one that has been discussed endlessly, 'can be poured'
17:40:59 <andythenorth> BULK is supposed to cover this
17:41:01 <Lars_> Would it be possible with a realistic amount of work to code a combined tunnel/station; a tunnel which has platforms in its entire length?
17:41:43 <Yexo> possible yes, but not without making a huge hack out of it
17:42:28 <Yexo> the 'good' way to code that would be to make underground tiles flexible, but that requires (big) changes to the way the map is stored, which means a huge amount of work
17:42:39 <Lars_> I know that.
17:42:52 <Yexo> michi_cc has a branch for that, although I don't know about the current status of it
17:43:23 <andythenorth> can anyone explain what cargo class logs should be?
17:43:36 <Lars_> But thinking more on a new tunnel which is a station for its entire length, or can be placed between to platform to form a station like Berlin Hbf.
17:43:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: "Bulk freight (any non-packaged cargo suitable for pouring, e.g. coal, grain, ore, cement, ...) " <- the spec definition does not sound "bulky" t all
17:44:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: oversized maybe
17:44:17 <andythenorth> maybe :P
17:44:23 <andythenorth> if they're really big :P
17:44:25 <Yexo> Lars_: possible, sure, but even that would already be quite a bit of work
17:44:36 <Yexo> it's not something you can code in a single afternoon
17:44:43 <Lars_> I feared that.
17:45:10 <andythenorth> classes are broken for the simple case of things that do go in open wagons (gondolas) and flat beds but *not* in hoppers or vans
17:45:30 <andythenorth> it's possible to fool with 'covered' to exclude the vans, but it's brain-twisting and no-one bothers
17:45:49 <andythenorth> hence most everything defaults to piece goods, broadly negating most of the point of classes
17:46:10 <andythenorth> I am probably arguing with the wrong people though :|
17:46:32 <andythenorth> how does one person get to control a common standard, that's not even tightly coupled to code?
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17:48:10 <flitz> a good evening
17:48:15 <Yexo> good evening flitz
17:48:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: it is not as bad as the rail labels :p
17:48:36 <Yexo> andythenorth: it's not so much one person controlling the standard as well as compatibility with older sets making it impossible to change said standard
17:49:05 <andythenorth> a number of the key older sets don't support the standard anyway
17:49:27 <Yexo> so propose a new standard :)
17:49:28 <flitz> out of curiousity, when starting openttd, what was the rationale behind implementing an own vector class ?
17:50:07 <Yexo> not entirely sure, but I think simplicity and known memory requirements
17:50:11 <andythenorth> along with the prop 1D madness, it might be time for new cargo methods?
17:50:41 <frosch123> flitz: the requirement to not copy tons of memory on appending
17:51:09 <frosch123> smallvector returns a pointer on append which you can then use to construct the thing
17:52:34 <frosch123> for std::vector push_back always involves copying data
17:53:15 <flitz> interesting
17:54:29 <frosch123> though i do not know where ottd actually has vectors with large items, and where that starts to have an impact :)
17:55:04 * andythenorth can't think of a better standard for cargos :(
17:55:12 * andythenorth proposes working on stations instead :D
17:55:21 <flitz> at least you know that you have a realiable backend, just in case ;)
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17:58:47 <supermop> i could brainstorm cargo standards using my relative naivet
17:59:14 <andythenorth> try
17:59:19 <andythenorth> :D
17:59:40 <frosch123> supermop: take the list of cargos from and categorise them
17:59:43 <andythenorth> it has to have an eye to actual implementation I'd guess
17:59:49 <andythenorth> it's not just an argument about labels
18:00:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: is the prop 1D situation so entrenched as to be unsolvable
18:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, when "bulk" is already "cargo suitible for pouring", what exactly do you think is missing?
18:00:18 <andythenorth> something to differentiate piece goods further
18:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i could imagine "large grained" (for hoppers) and "fine grained" (for silos)
18:00:41 <frosch123> andythenorth:
18:01:04 <supermop> se thats why i think hopper should be the class
18:01:07 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. (solid) fertilizer would go in silo wagons
18:01:10 <frosch123> still the same, there is a patch (which i do not know whether it still compiles), but noone is interested from the grf pov :)
18:01:22 <andythenorth> I suspect that if covered / sheltered was more accurately used, the problem would be reduced
18:01:23 <supermop> hopper is one class, silo another
18:01:31 <andythenorth> to me they're the same
18:01:41 <supermop> that doesnt bother me
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18:01:50 <andythenorth> the issue is tricky cargos like scrap metal, wood, sugar cane
18:02:06 <supermop> but if people want to force wheat not being poured into a coal car,
18:02:09 <frosch123>
18:02:14 <andythenorth> sugar cane is impossible to support with classes
18:02:18 <frosch123> r17382 :p
18:02:33 <supermop> well 'bulk' is generic in english as well
18:02:54 <supermop> it can refer to items that are 'bulky' ( a crushed car)
18:03:17 <supermop> or items purchased in bulk (coal or grain)
18:03:49 <andythenorth> how does scrap metal travel irl?
18:04:01 <supermop> the more "bulky" an object is, the less likely you are actually buying and moving it similar to "bulk goods"
18:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: reading the definition above more something like "anything that can be dropped into a wagon by conveyor belt"
18:04:11 <andythenorth> 'flows'
18:04:16 <supermop> scrap metal is wierd,
18:04:21 <frosch123> anyway, need to watch tsl now :p
18:04:35 <supermop> here we see crushed cars on flat beds
18:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's also missing some cargo class for "lightweight" (e.g. straw)
18:05:02 <supermop> but then piles of smaller pieces of metal that are moved in dump trucks
18:05:19 <supermop> still unable to pour through a hopper though,
18:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> something that is not limiting the wagon load by its mass, but by its volume
18:05:46 <supermop> thats then another issue
18:05:49 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't put 40t of straw or cotton onto one wagon
18:06:02 <andythenorth> you will never see FIRS scrap metal moving in a dump truck
18:06:09 <supermop> 40 tons of coal and 40 tons or iron ore are very different by volume
18:06:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i presume sugar cane could fall into that category as well
18:06:19 <andythenorth> unless that dump truck also refits to piece goods
18:06:34 <andythenorth> you will see scrap metal moving in box trucks
18:06:52 <supermop> i think it should be flat beds, andy
18:07:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: scrap metal is a bad corner case. sheltered/bulk maybe
18:07:25 <andythenorth> supermop: not something I can influence much
18:07:38 <andythenorth> meanwhile cotton (plant fibres) will move by coal hopper
18:07:53 <supermop> but anyway, 40 tons of coal will not fit in a hopper meant to carry 40 tones of iron ore
18:08:03 <andythenorth> sugar beet and sugar cane will also move by coal hopper
18:08:11 <supermop> and if you fill up the 40 ton coal car with ore, it would be too heavy
18:08:26 <supermop> but that is something i can overlook
18:08:39 <andythenorth> some people address that actually
18:08:51 <andythenorth> but the spec for it is inconsistent
18:09:10 <supermop> what if capacity had two parameters?
18:09:16 <supermop> weight and volume?
18:09:18 <andythenorth> there's a cb to set it
18:09:19 <supermop> too complex?
18:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, MB started to handle both weight and volume limits for cargo wagons. but it needs knowing each cargo directly.
18:09:30 <andythenorth> cargos also have a weight / units property
18:09:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and it completely fails for generic cargo like supplies
18:09:39 <andythenorth> but it's broken
18:10:13 <andythenorth> crates of supplies in FIRS change either weight or size, depending on whether you load ships, RVs, trains, or planes
18:11:12 <andythenorth>
18:11:29 <supermop> what if crate was replacedd with 'pallet'
18:11:42 <andythenorth> same issue
18:11:48 <andythenorth> frosch's diagram explains it :D
18:11:51 <supermop> container or box car holds around 20 pallets
18:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: does not make any difference, it's just a string
18:13:03 <supermop> ok
18:13:38 <supermop> but back to pouring
18:14:00 <supermop> why not just create the label 'pour'
18:15:20 <supermop> the other thing is, i can go to the post office or fedex, and mail someone a box of coal
18:15:38 <supermop> so at some level any car could carry any type of cargo
18:16:48 <Alberth> flitz: C has no vector class
18:19:53 <andythenorth> supermop: we're not allowed to create the label 'pour'
18:20:34 <andythenorth> except by extensive negotiation, and reference to issues discussed long ago in a german forum
18:20:43 <andythenorth> or possibly it's all fine and we'll be allowed
18:20:52 <andythenorth> but I won't know yet until I get a reply
18:21:07 <andythenorth> I dunno
18:21:28 <andythenorth> I like mb, but his control of a spec the rest of us depend on bothers me
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18:27:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a matter of "i invented this whole thing to my own intentions, and suddenly a lot of other people suddenly pop up and have (slightly) different intentions that don't fit properly"
18:27:48 <supermop> why not just invent your own spec
18:28:16 <supermop> if firs, heqs, fish use it, then you will have a decent base
18:30:01 <flitz> Aberth: IIRC, I read that you are using Ansi C++ like it is used by VS, doesn't this use the C++ STL ?
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18:35:57 <supermop> i don't see how anything can be stuck as so hard and fast
18:36:27 <supermop> if people think a new way is better and work to implement it, what is there to stop them?
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18:38:05 <glx> flitz: STL is not implemented the same by all compilers
18:38:19 <glx> we had some fun with iterators
18:38:59 <Alberth> flitz: C++ is not used so long, C was used much longer
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18:39:20 <flitz> ok that is true, I wasn't thinking about openttd not on linux :)
18:40:11 <Alberth> ie somewhere half a year ago I removed struct function pointers as a C-version of methods
18:41:04 <Alberth> Window class was introduced somewhere around 2008 iirc
18:41:21 <Rubidium> WP! :)
18:41:38 <Alberth> WP?
18:41:44 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: it's not that easy. cargo classes are the defining interface between industry sets (ECS, FIRS, PBI) and the vehicle sets (dozens of them)
18:42:45 <Alberth> define a compability mapping?
18:43:22 <Rubidium> #define WP(ptr, str) (*(str*)(ptr)->custom)
18:43:33 <flitz> when first looking into it some things looked confusing at first, like how nested widgets are composed in a window e.g.
18:43:40 <supermop> i know, eddi, but if there is a compelling enough reason it might be worth a shot
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18:44:34 <supermop> gah i forgot to eat lunch
18:44:58 <Alberth> Rubidium: ah, that was before my time :p
18:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that's the point, andythenorth's rants are not universally viewed as "compelling reason" :)
18:45:12 <supermop> haha
18:45:20 <Alberth> flitz: very similar to other GUI toolkits
18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22276 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt german.txt russian.txt unfinished/frisian.txt):
18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 61 changes by gjannema
18:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by MG
18:45:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
18:46:33 <supermop> but as the author of both multiple vehicle sets and an industry set, he has more power than the average user to try to act on his compulsions
18:46:56 <Rubidium> Alberth: that's a lie; you were basically the cause to get rid of them
18:47:33 <Alberth> yeah, that's why I never worked with it ;)
18:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that was the time of "turn XYZWindow into a class" commits
18:59:32 <flitz> Alberth: I was used to the Qt-like toolkits before, maybe I was just a bit spoiled by the documentation there :D
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19:04:34 <Alberth> it has been a few years, but I think layout mostly behaves as with QHBoxLayout and QVBoxLayout
19:05:42 <flitz> yes, the composition hierarchy for subwidgets is very intuitiv
19:07:14 <flitz> when first starting I just took an existing gui and modified it to suit my needs and more or less learned about single components on the fly
19:11:08 <Alberth> widgets are the easy part, getting them connected to the game is pretty much completely custom for every window :)
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19:14:46 * andythenorth suspects if pikka was bothered about the classes issue, it would move towards a fix
19:14:58 <andythenorth> not that pikka is magic, he's just better at workable suggestions than me
19:15:03 <andythenorth> I am better at rant
19:15:20 <andythenorth> my understanding is that pikka is quite happy with classes as they stand :|
19:15:34 <Alberth> until he is making cargos he won't consider it a problem
19:15:54 <andythenorth> I like the compatibility mapping suggestion in principle
19:16:39 <andythenorth> as a set author it's not broken
19:16:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I understand your reasons and I think your point. But what about (backward) compatibility?
19:17:00 <andythenorth> 'got a problem?' just use an explicit definition for a cargo with the various props on offer
19:17:17 <andythenorth> but there are only two full industry sets that implement classes afaik
19:17:38 <andythenorth> which is probably why g*orge has had so many debates with mb
19:18:14 <andythenorth> It's easy when you're making vehicle sets, no problem to see, just move on :P
19:18:21 <flitz> Alberth: highly specialized gui-parts are ok as their uses are somewhat similiar throughout the game
19:18:32 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how about forget backward compatibility? :D
19:18:42 <flitz> just finding out how to create such a window is a bit of a pain at first
19:18:44 <andythenorth> perhaps when 1.1 is released, a more aggressive attitude to deprecation?
19:18:51 <andythenorth> python deprecates aggressively :D
19:18:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: bad idea
19:19:16 <andythenorth> why?
19:19:17 <Alberth> andythenorth: for the first time with py3
19:19:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not very good. OSS lives from people participating. It'd offend many
19:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the community is not big enough to handle updating 5 year old grfs with questionable licenses
19:19:57 <andythenorth> (some of) those grfs don't support classes correctly anyway
19:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it's also not big enough to handle losing compatibility to these grfs
19:20:19 <andythenorth> I would argue more strongly if I could spec a better alternative
19:20:20 <andythenorth> I can't
19:20:41 <Alberth> flitz: like the old system where you had to specify the exact position of each widget yourself was much better ;)
19:21:09 <Alberth> along with a multitude of hacks to make it resize as wanted :)
19:21:14 <confound> python also has regular enough syntax to offer automated conversion tools. is that true of grfs?
19:21:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth: "bulk" is too unspecific IMHO for your argument
19:22:01 <flitz> Alberth: I bet it was ;)
19:22:25 <Alberth> confound: py3 mostly changes syntax of statements, here you'd have to modify the data itself
19:22:29 <planetmaker> it could indeed need split into two(?) classes, like "bulk small grain" and "bulk large pieces"
19:22:33 <planetmaker> but I'm not sure
19:22:44 <confound> Alberth: that was my point :)
19:22:44 <planetmaker> what would cement be? bulk, covered and small?
19:22:49 <Yexo> andythenorth: I think the main problem is that there is no clear benefit for deprecating the cargo classes
19:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> confound: grfs have hardly any syntax, the semantics is the key point
19:22:56 <Yexo> A) there is no better alternative (currently)
19:23:15 <Yexo> B) most vehicles sets work fine, they need some exceptions but that's not visible to the user
19:23:38 <Yexo> user don't get anything out of a change, openttd gains nothing of a change, vehicle set developers probably don't get much use out of a change either
19:23:43 <Yexo> that leaves industry grf developers
19:23:57 <planetmaker> :-)
19:24:07 <Alberth> users get better vehicle selection
19:24:14 <Yexo> a bit, but not much
19:24:49 <planetmaker> I wonder, with a grf version8 it could possibly be extended?
19:25:09 <planetmaker> with a similar translation table as the (new) base costs use?
19:25:19 <Yexo> it doesn't need grf version8, you could also introduce a new property with new classes
19:25:23 <Yexo> or whatever else you want to introduce
19:25:30 <planetmaker> of course
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19:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i shall now completely screw up my possibly irreversibly damaged system by rebooting. brb (*pray*)
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19:32:33 <supermop> i just think the word bulk should never be used as a class label, because it can mean two essentially opposite concepts in this context
19:35:31 <SmatZ> [20:26:08] <Eddi|zuHause> i shall now completely screw up my possibly irreversibly damaged system by rebooting. brb (*pray*) <== seems it didn't boot up :P
19:40:23 <andythenorth> supermop: too late :P
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19:40:48 * andythenorth slightly favours an ECS2 with mappings and new properties
19:40:51 <andythenorth> but only slightly
19:41:02 <andythenorth> better would be a sane conversation with mb about existing system
19:41:25 <andythenorth> and me never having to work with refittable and non-refittable classes ever again :P
19:43:22 <andythenorth> the system of classes *isn't* broken
19:43:30 <andythenorth> but the current definitions are somewhat
19:43:52 <andythenorth> there are by my count at least 4 remaining slots
19:44:02 <andythenorth> so this is fixable
19:44:09 <supermop> does the current system disallow the addition of a new label?
19:44:33 <andythenorth> no
19:44:35 <andythenorth> mb disallows it
19:45:02 <andythenorth> it's negotiable, changes have been made before
19:45:10 <andythenorth> but the default assumption is 'no'
19:45:11 <Alberth> supermop: but even if it did, there is no vehicle set that supports it, so you have non-transferable cargo
19:45:43 <andythenorth> but there are numerous vehicle sets that could be updated
19:45:44 <Alberth> s/transfer/transport/
19:46:02 <andythenorth> I recall the inverse argument about flipping in depot
19:46:13 <andythenorth> in that case it was decided that old sets should somehow be updated
19:46:38 <andythenorth> also when acceleration values were changed, it was decided that set authors should make the updates
19:46:45 <Alberth> yeah, with these things you have to simply do the change, and wait for the other end to catch up
19:47:09 * andythenorth wonders if quite an inconsistent standard is being applied? :o
19:47:29 <Alberth> andythenorth: what if you make a more precise definition of bulk, and then conclude something is missing?
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19:47:38 <andythenorth> it's a problem :D
19:47:51 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: welcome, you're still alive!
19:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. why would it ever work immediately.
19:48:11 <andythenorth> hmm
19:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and why would it keep the downloaded rpm even though i said it should.
19:48:20 <andythenorth> I could just define my own private ECS label
19:48:24 <andythenorth> and use it
19:48:29 <andythenorth> and see if pikka will support it
19:48:42 <andythenorth> 'defacto' support
19:49:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... konsole font changed... looks weird
19:49:31 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: oh, kde. I messed that up so badly, I switched to gnome instead :)
19:50:03 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: "brb" would be nice last words :)
19:52:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you have been dealing with classes for opengfx+? Or you use explicit support with labels?
19:52:47 <planetmaker> of course I use classes where possible
19:52:55 <andythenorth> (thinking of running some tests on new label(s))
19:53:52 <andythenorth> do classes AND or OR?
19:54:03 <andythenorth> I always get someone else to work them out for me, I am baffled by them
19:54:17 <andythenorth> for prop 28 / 29 trains for example
19:54:27 <planetmaker> <-- all cargo definitions
19:55:07 <planetmaker> translation to nfo property numbers should be obvious by the names ;-)
19:55:29 <andythenorth> very tidy :D
19:56:06 <planetmaker> :-) The only way I could keep somewhat an overview
19:56:28 <andythenorth> so for, e.g. FLATBED, why don't you have to define BULK as non-refittable?
19:56:42 <Yexo> andythenorth: see second table here: for how cargo classes work
19:57:46 <andythenorth> ok
19:57:47 <andythenorth> thanks
19:59:06 <planetmaker> it's a bit a matter of how I need the least amount of cargo labels in the refittable_cargo_types property
19:59:40 <planetmaker> as I can only use overall 32 cargo labels there in the set as total
19:59:59 <andythenorth> and you trust no stupid industry set author defines something BULK and PIECE GOODS that shouldn't travel by flatbed
20:00:12 <planetmaker> and of course how to provision sensible handling of yet undefined cargos
20:00:35 * andythenorth leaves some of the FIRS 'what is it anyway' cargos well out of this argument :D
20:00:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: well, it could go into containers probably ;-)
20:01:15 <andythenorth> if you had vehicles OPEN what classes would you use?
20:01:20 <planetmaker> also, andythenorth: a flatbed could carry any piece cargo. Whether it (also) is defined as bulk doesn't matter
20:02:01 <andythenorth> coal in bags...
20:02:22 <supermop> coal in suitcases
20:02:29 <andythenorth> I am trying to find a test case for my problem with BULK
20:02:37 <andythenorth> to see if it's real or just a personal obsession
20:02:37 <Terkhen> coal in tankers :)
20:02:44 <supermop> coal in passengers' trouser pockets
20:02:45 <Terkhen> hello btw :)
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20:03:20 <andythenorth> I can't define for a cargo inverse classes?
20:03:25 <planetmaker> I'd use like pax, armoured, coarse bulk (dirty), small grain bulk (can be blown, like fertilizter, grain, cement), covered, piece goods, tanker, refrigerate
20:04:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you don't provide support for hazardous, oversized? or I missed that?
20:04:17 <planetmaker> hm... maybe additionally: flatbed, hazardous maybe
20:04:37 <planetmaker> but I don't provide explicit support for that. No need. No tests possible as non-existent
20:04:54 <planetmaker> that = oversized, hazardous
20:05:22 <andythenorth> no industry set offers them?
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20:07:21 <supermop> people keep asking for nuclear
20:07:27 <supermop> which makes no sense
20:08:09 <supermop> actually
20:08:12 <Terkhen> andythenorth: not that I know
20:08:12 <andythenorth> 'would be cool'
20:09:00 <Terkhen> I have seen Uranium and Rockets cargos at the wiki, but no industry sets using them
20:09:15 <supermop> the existence of the armored class implicitly suggests that the ottd world is full of criminals or bandits who would try to steal gold from the train
20:10:18 <planetmaker> I'd not support introduction of those cargos ;-)
20:10:23 <planetmaker> We have RL for that
20:10:48 <Alberth> can you imagine the number of complaints that we'd get if we transport gold in an open wagon? :p
20:11:03 <confound> but I do that all the time irl
20:11:04 <planetmaker> hahaha :-)
20:11:08 <supermop> hopper
20:11:31 <andythenorth> believe ECS was going to add hazardous to petrol and refined products
20:11:34 <planetmaker> there you see how far "realism" arguments go
20:11:49 <supermop> full of coins
20:11:59 <andythenorth> Terkhen: rockets - I believe I know who and what that is for
20:12:20 <Terkhen> what is it for?
20:12:26 <andythenorth> WATT is my favourite class :)
20:12:32 <andythenorth> label /s
20:12:44 <supermop> but no military would have some random company move those around for them...
20:13:12 <Alberth> hmm, hazardous could influence the path finder and disallow a route through a populated area :)
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20:14:53 <Terkhen> or cause protests (low ratings) from people living nearby :)
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20:16:59 * andythenorth wonders
20:17:13 <andythenorth> the problem I have with something in between bulk and piece goods...
20:17:27 <andythenorth> is largely solved if the cargo could exclude covered / sheltered
20:17:56 <andythenorth> although I'm not sure many sets implement covered / sheltered
20:18:54 * andythenorth wonders if a 'NOT xyz' class is valid
20:19:14 <andythenorth> maybe that exceptionally complicates an existing complicated situation :P
20:21:07 * andythenorth ponders
20:21:33 <andythenorth> new class 'bulk that flows' would work
20:21:50 <andythenorth> cargos such as coal could implement 'bulk that flows' and 'bulk'
20:22:06 <andythenorth> thereby preserving backwards compatibility
20:22:28 <andythenorth> authors could define 'bulk that flows' for hoppers and 'bulk' for open wagons
20:23:07 <andythenorth> nothing existing breaks, but a more fine-grained selection of cargos is possible
20:23:15 <andythenorth> so we enhance without breaking
20:23:24 <supermop> needs a more concise name
20:23:41 <supermop> 'particulate'?
20:23:47 <andythenorth> could be
20:23:50 <supermop> 'granular'
20:23:59 <andythenorth> 'pourable' was a suggestion several times previously
20:24:03 <andythenorth> 'granular' is better
20:24:04 <Alberth> small bulk
20:24:12 <andythenorth> it's similar to how 'covered / sheltered' enhances both piece goods and bulk
20:24:18 <andythenorth> without breaking them
20:24:19 <supermop> but liquids are technically pourable too
20:24:28 <andythenorth> granular is better
20:24:41 <supermop> fine bulk is better than small bulk
20:24:48 <andythenorth> granular is better than either
20:25:02 <supermop> as fine describes grain size, small could be confused with amount
20:25:04 <supermop> yes
20:25:13 <supermop> i like granular
20:25:30 <supermop> but does it need to be "GRAN" or something?
20:25:46 <andythenorth> nah
20:25:50 <andythenorth> that's labels
20:25:53 <supermop> ok
20:25:54 <andythenorth> this is just 11
20:26:01 <andythenorth> bit 11 here:
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20:26:17 <andythenorth> and persuade mb that it's ok to change the definition of bulk
20:26:32 <supermop> ok
20:26:44 <supermop> i don't think i have any chance of that
20:26:48 <andythenorth> I shall try
20:26:54 <supermop> but i lend my support to the effort
20:26:56 <andythenorth> I have had long conversations with him about classes
20:27:01 <andythenorth> and labels
20:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with "bulk" [open, hopper] if you introduce additional "granular" [open, hopper, silo]?
20:27:18 <Alberth> how does he see 'bulk'? as big bulk or granular bulk?
20:27:22 <andythenorth> interestingly, DB Set mostly uses labels, not classes
20:27:42 <andythenorth> mb can't provide cargo support to his standard with classes
20:27:50 <andythenorth> so he explicitly supports nearly all known labels
20:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: do you mean the (unmaintained) DBSet 0.82 or the (in development) 0.9?
20:28:06 <andythenorth> therefore we discussed at some length the precise meaning and classes of various labels
20:28:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no idea
20:28:13 <andythenorth> 0.9 I imagine
20:28:19 <supermop> chunky
20:28:26 <supermop> coarse bulk?
20:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik 0.82 predates classes completely
20:28:41 <supermop> chunky is more descriptive but sounds bad
20:29:33 <supermop> bulky bulk
20:29:51 <Alberth> coarse sounds better imho
20:29:59 <supermop> yeah
20:30:11 <supermop> but it doesnt go far enough
20:30:11 <andythenorth> In fact, for a vehicle set with large numbers of different visible cargoes, you cannot use cargo classes for any visible cargo
20:30:26 <andythenorth> ^^ what mb said in one of our discussions
20:30:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: different problem.
20:30:37 <andythenorth> indeed
20:30:42 <andythenorth> we also discussed that and agreed
20:30:49 <andythenorth> this isn't an argument against classes ;P
20:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is unsolvable with cargo classes
20:30:56 <supermop> as someone might call coal coarse when compared to sand,
20:31:20 <andythenorth> bulk is bulk
20:31:21 <supermop> and sand coarse when compared to various powders
20:31:37 <andythenorth> the problem is a relative one
20:31:45 <andythenorth> sand versus coal - both travel in hoppers
20:31:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: cargo classes are supposed to solve the 32bit limits for refit masks. cargo graphics have no such limit, they can decide cargo label directly
20:32:08 <andythenorth> any mineral cargo versus tree trunks ...
20:32:43 * andythenorth ponders a test implementation
20:32:48 <supermop> Andy, do you want 'bulk' to mean only those objects carried on flatbeds?
20:32:51 <andythenorth> no
20:33:16 <andythenorth> I want to make it possible for vehicle authors to exclude some bulk cargos from hoppers
20:33:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need two things now: a) a clear concept, and b) a conclusive example
20:33:29 <supermop> or are things that can be piled, but not funneled
20:33:41 <supermop> like glass bottles to be recycled
20:33:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: new class 'granular' on bit 11
20:33:54 <andythenorth> and I can test it with HEQS / FIRS
20:34:11 <andythenorth> sugar beet should travel by open wagon, but not dump truck
20:34:22 * andythenorth now expects someone to post a picture showing opposite
20:34:28 <supermop> heh
20:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i meant a clear written document detailing the meaning of each proposed change
20:34:48 <andythenorth> I'd prefer to test it and see what I break :P
20:35:00 <andythenorth> shame I don't have a train set
20:35:12 <supermop>
20:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that is the fundamental flaw. you want a spec change passed through a committee...
20:35:23 <supermop> that truck seems to be dumpable
20:35:42 <andythenorth> supermop: that truck has a bottom conveyor
20:35:46 <supermop> with some kind of chute on the back
20:35:47 <andythenorth> you just found an interesting case :P
20:35:56 <andythenorth> sugar is a bad example
20:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "testing" bit is irrelevant, since the change of adding a class bit is trivial
20:36:09 <andythenorth> I've backed myself into a corner with sugar
20:36:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: think it's worth testing that it appears to solve the proble
20:36:44 <andythenorth> m
20:36:50 <andythenorth> if it doesn't, scrap it
20:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sugar/fibres a "lightweight" cargo class?
20:37:19 <andythenorth> what difference does it make to vehicle support? :o
20:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "lightweight" goes in some kind of caged wagons
20:38:06 <andythenorth> interestink
20:38:20 <supermop> like corn
20:38:28 <supermop> /maize
20:38:33 <andythenorth> fruit and veg
20:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: with straw and the like you want to make sure you get as much into the vehicle without it falling off
20:39:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause:
20:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but it isn't pourable, so it can't go into hoppers, and doesn't make sense in dump truck
20:40:03 <andythenorth> post in the thread...
20:40:19 <andythenorth>
20:40:26 <planetmaker> I seem to recall that we've been at the 'granular' point at least once before ;-)
20:40:36 <andythenorth> probably twice
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20:42:21 <supermop> you can pour it, just not through the funnel of a hopper
20:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so, what about scrap metal?
20:42:39 <supermop> with a big enough hopper you could pour cars
20:43:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what do you think? :P
20:45:17 <andythenorth> scrap metal should be BULK under my new scheme
20:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> "coarse bulk" means cargo like coal and ore, which goes into open and hopper wagons. "granular" means grain, fertilizer and can additionally go into silo wagons
20:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> scrap metal would still not fit into a hopper
20:46:03 <andythenorth> no
20:46:07 <andythenorth> and it shouldn't
20:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's not "bulk"
20:46:40 <andythenorth> the problem remains unsolved in that case
20:47:24 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "uncountable" as opposed to "piece"
20:47:47 <andythenorth> how about 'goods'?
20:48:05 <Eddi|zuHause> "piece" would be anything that is countable in "crates" or similar units
20:48:12 <Rubidium> but you can count grains of sand
20:49:27 <andythenorth> coal is granular no?
20:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> no
20:49:40 <supermop> it is
20:49:46 <andythenorth> coal somewhat flows
20:49:51 <supermop> mehanically
20:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but it can't be put in a silo wagon
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20:50:06 <supermop> it behaves like any other granular material
20:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "too large grain size"
20:50:16 <supermop> just at a different size,
20:50:26 <andythenorth> which problem do silo wagons relate to?
20:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but that's precisely the difference i am trying to make
20:51:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you want to differentiate silo wagons, or it's a straw man argument against my case?
20:51:27 <andythenorth> ;)
20:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's my current imagination on how things should work
20:51:46 <supermop> andy, how do you imagine firs scrap metal?
20:51:50 <planetmaker> it's red herring you
20:51:50 <andythenorth> bulk
20:51:55 <supermop> large or small chunks?
20:52:05 <andythenorth> irrelevant
20:52:10 <andythenorth> but they shouldn't travel by hopper
20:52:17 <supermop> like a crushed car, or a pile of stuff?
20:52:23 <andythenorth> doesn't matter in this case
20:52:51 <supermop> well we seems to be categorizing by how the cargo is emptied from the vehicle
20:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <-- that's a silo wagon
20:53:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in what way is that not already covered by classes?
20:53:21 <Alberth> would the kind of wagon not be easier as classification?
20:53:30 <andythenorth> Alberth: what kind of wagon is a ship :D
20:53:32 <andythenorth> or a plane
20:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you wouldn
20:53:39 <Eddi|zuHause> 't put coal in such a wagon
20:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> but cement or fertilizer
20:53:59 <andythenorth> hmm
20:54:02 <andythenorth> coal slurry?
20:54:09 <supermop> coal dust
20:54:09 <andythenorth> nah
20:54:14 <supermop> about to be burned
20:54:21 <supermop> but what i was on about
20:54:33 <Alberth> rocket propulsion :p
20:54:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can't solve that case with current classes either :(
20:54:45 <andythenorth> you are right
20:54:52 <andythenorth> I thought covered / sheltered might do it
20:54:55 <supermop> is that things that carry cargo are typified as much by how they unload as how they carry
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20:55:36 <supermop> if the scrap metal is removed piece by piece by some workers, it is more like a boxcar
20:55:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you wouldn't be prepared to consider those fine cargos as liquids?
20:55:52 <andythenorth> they are liquified by air for unloading
20:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that would put them in tank wagons, which isn't right either
20:56:25 <andythenorth> indeed
20:56:43 <supermop> mechanically the silo wagon works differently than a tank
20:56:49 <andythenorth> I don't like granular for that case
20:57:01 <andythenorth> that seems to be powder
20:57:20 <supermop> and in NA grain goes in a wagon that works like a coal hopper, but with a cover
20:57:42 <andythenorth> supermop: granular, covered / sheltered
20:58:00 <andythenorth> I still don't understand if classes AND or OR though :P
20:58:16 <supermop> ooh:
20:58:17 <supermop>,1214422198,3/stock-photo-potatoes-exit-a-side-dump-truck-onto-conveyor-at-potato-packing-plant-14183299.jpg
20:58:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so you would have CMNT cargo as 'powder, covered / sheltered, piece goods' ?
20:58:34 <supermop> side-dumping dump truck of potatoes
20:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: potatos are "large grained"
20:58:53 <supermop> like coal
20:59:04 <andythenorth> and beet
20:59:04 <Eddi|zuHause> like coal, ore, ...
20:59:25 <supermop> i was just searching for side dumpers to see what usually went in them
20:59:31 <supermop> because i didn't know
20:59:40 <supermop> i guess its potatoes
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21:00:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a pota toe...
21:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a toma toe either
21:00:53 <supermop> sorry, thats just my spell check
21:01:06 <supermop> i prefer the no 'e' spelling as well
21:01:15 <supermop> but opera doesn't like it
21:01:19 <supermop>
21:01:24 <supermop> what goes in those?
21:01:52 <andythenorth> anything that will fall out when you tip it
21:02:11 <andythenorth> aggregate, demolition debris, potatoes, immigrants :P
21:02:23 <andythenorth> grain - if you cover it
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21:02:50 <supermop> i mean, the dump trucks with a round bottom
21:03:24 <andythenorth> sticky stuff like clay
21:03:35 <andythenorth> my guess is it's just a good way to fabricate them
21:03:39 <supermop>
21:03:39 <andythenorth> ach
21:03:44 <supermop> bolders
21:04:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so the final decision is what? 'lots more classes' ?
21:04:05 <andythenorth> :o
21:05:54 <andythenorth> hmm
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21:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm trying to write something conclusive
21:11:18 <andythenorth> thanks
21:11:27 <andythenorth> once again I've baffled myself
21:11:33 <andythenorth> I just looked at UKRS 2 with FIRS
21:11:41 <andythenorth> the results are puzzling
21:12:49 <supermop> yeah?
21:17:21 <andythenorth> try it
21:17:24 <andythenorth> both on bananas
21:17:31 <andythenorth> set date to about 2000
21:18:02 <andythenorth> look at the covered hoppers
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21:18:09 <andythenorth> although pikka will likely fix those
21:18:09 <supermop> never actually played with ukrs or ukrs2
21:18:39 <andythenorth> mostly UKRS 2 is proof that classes fundamentally work
21:19:04 <andythenorth> but it should be easier than it is
21:21:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can half see an alternative solution
21:21:30 <andythenorth> it would be based on a fundamental change :(
21:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have formulated (my view) of the problem in the thread now
21:21:59 <andythenorth> I shall look
21:22:15 <Eddi|zuHause> s/) of/ of)/
21:22:33 <andythenorth> good reply
21:22:48 <andythenorth> ignoring what's possible...
21:22:58 <andythenorth> there appear to be three base classes for cargos
21:23:01 <andythenorth> bulk
21:23:03 <andythenorth> piece goods
21:23:09 <andythenorth> liquid
21:23:25 <andythenorth> the distinctions could be argued, but it seems about right
21:23:41 <andythenorth> then there seem to be another layer of technical provisions
21:23:53 <andythenorth> which could equally be applied to any of those base classes
21:24:06 <andythenorth> e.g. refrigerated, hazardous, covered
21:24:32 <andythenorth> and some more which would seem to be limited to bulk (but it doesn't matter)
21:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> liquid, hazardous: e.g. oil, fuel
21:24:49 <andythenorth> powdered (requires silos), granular (suitable for hoppers)
21:25:19 <andythenorth> it would seem to me that the vehicle set author should be able to do the following:
21:25:24 <andythenorth> set base class for vehicle
21:25:29 <andythenorth> define technical provisions
21:25:44 <andythenorth> then the cargo set author should do the same
21:26:01 <andythenorth> the cargo set author should be able to AND and XOR
21:26:56 <andythenorth> then depending on how crazy each of the two authors are, bad things would happen
21:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> what should the meaning of "AND" be? when e.g. oil is "liquid AND hazardous", then all tank wagons which only define "liquid" cannot load oil?
21:27:18 <andythenorth> yes
21:27:27 <andythenorth> which would be an insane thing to define
21:27:42 <andythenorth> or would it?
21:27:50 <andythenorth> I can't discern what mb intends with hazardous
21:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but it could improve the refit cost thing
21:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> refit cost could be increased if the class changed
21:28:15 <andythenorth> lets test some cases
21:28:20 <andythenorth> coal
21:28:25 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. from oil to milk would be "liquid, hazardous" to "liquid"
21:28:44 <andythenorth> coal would be bulk?
21:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but from water to milk would be "liquid" to "liquid", so reduced cost
21:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> coal would be "bulk, granular"
21:29:17 <andythenorth> so the cargo set author would XOR nothing
21:29:24 <Eddi|zuHause> probably "bulk OR granular"
21:29:32 <andythenorth> but the vehicle set author could XOR granular from silo wagons
21:29:41 <Eddi|zuHause> bulk -> open wagon
21:29:46 <Eddi|zuHause> granular -> hopper wagon
21:29:50 <andythenorth> indeed
21:30:02 <andythenorth> so current spec is cargo set classes OR
21:30:10 <andythenorth> cargo cannot specify AND or XOR
21:30:23 <andythenorth> ?
21:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the use case for "XOR"?
21:30:56 <andythenorth> hmm
21:31:45 * andythenorth thought of one and has forgotten :|
21:31:57 <andythenorth> it was related to the silo case
21:32:24 <andythenorth> flip your case
21:32:32 <andythenorth> make the vehicle set author's life easier
21:32:41 <andythenorth> they define what the wagon *is* not what it isn't
21:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> they can currently do both
21:32:54 <andythenorth> so a silo is bulk, powder
21:33:18 <andythenorth> rely on the industry set author to XOR coal from powder
21:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> they can say "include cargo classes X, Y" and "exclude cargo class Z"
21:33:33 <andythenorth> bearing in mind that there are only two active industry set authors shipping code...
21:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't mean XOR, you mean NOT
21:33:59 <andythenorth> yes, you're right
21:34:02 <andythenorth> and ECS obliges the industry set authors to agree on classes somewhat
21:34:10 <andythenorth> sorry
21:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> coal: "bulk OR granular AND (NOT powder)"
21:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> coal: "(bulk OR granular) AND (NOT powder)"
21:34:45 <andythenorth> it would seem much easier to define only what a vehicle *does* support and stop dicking around with XOR masks which, I for one, can't write
21:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> coal: "(bulk AND (NOT powder)) OR granular"
21:35:00 <Eddi|zuHause> one of those
21:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it gets extremely difficult to specify properly
21:35:29 <andythenorth> not a lot more difficult than currently :D
21:35:30 <supermop> boolean cargo?
21:36:05 <andythenorth> currently, industry set authors get the player feedback and the expectation of setting classes correctly, but don't have the tools
21:36:40 <andythenorth> wood?
21:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you remove the AND/OR thing out of this proposal, then it amounts to a new property "excluded cargo classes" for cargos
21:36:50 <andythenorth> pretty much
21:37:15 <andythenorth> but only a good idea if it reduces the burden on vehicle set authors
21:37:24 <andythenorth> lets test wood
21:37:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not sure how that would make things easier
21:37:55 <andythenorth> it's only a half-formed idea. It may be invalid :D
21:38:45 <andythenorth> wood is bulk
21:38:45 <supermop> andy
21:38:53 <supermop> i solved scrap metal:
21:38:54 <supermop>
21:39:06 <andythenorth> piece goods :D
21:39:33 <andythenorth> wood would NOT granular
21:39:40 <andythenorth> but would it NOT refrigerated? :o
21:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the definition of "bulk" as "pourable" does not really fit
21:40:00 <supermop> oh man andy
21:40:01 <andythenorth> would wood NOT hazardous? :o
21:40:07 <supermop>
21:40:25 <andythenorth> ^ solid tyres
21:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: only if you want to exclude it from every wagon that is flagged to allow hazardous
21:40:44 <Eddi|zuHause> which doesn't seem useful
21:40:45 <andythenorth> but we rely on vehicle set authors not being insane?
21:40:49 <supermop> but still, in a dump truck
21:40:55 <andythenorth> supermop: indeed
21:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that's a pickup, not a dump
21:41:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the second link ;)
21:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry... distracted...
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21:42:40 <andythenorth> hmm
21:43:26 <andythenorth> so an open wagon would set BULK (a new definition of it) and PIECE GOODS
21:43:39 <andythenorth> it wouldn't set POWDER
21:43:42 <supermop> seems reasonable
21:43:54 <andythenorth> whether it sets GRANULAR is up to the set author, but it's not a hopper so shouldn't
21:44:04 <andythenorth> setting HAZARDOUS is optional but pointless
21:44:19 <andythenorth> setting REFRIGERATED is stupid unless it's for siberia
21:44:26 <andythenorth> setting LIQUID is dumb
21:44:51 <andythenorth> nothing needs to XOR
21:44:54 <supermop> lose x% cargo each time train brakes
21:45:35 <andythenorth> COVERED / SHELTERED wouldn't be set
21:45:56 <andythenorth> cargo set author then decides if grain needs to be both BULK && COVERED / SHELTERED
21:46:11 <andythenorth> if they think that matters, their cargo doesn't travel by open wagon in that set
21:46:35 <supermop> you mean granular && covered
21:46:37 <supermop> ?
21:46:52 <andythenorth> this is why it's tricky
21:47:01 <andythenorth> as Eddi|zuHause pointed out
21:47:08 <andythenorth> then you have to figure out
21:47:17 <supermop> if its boolean,
21:47:27 <supermop> and granular is a subtype of bulk
21:47:29 <andythenorth> (GRANULAR && COVERED / SHELTERED) || (BULK && COVERED SHELTERED)
21:47:45 <andythenorth> or GRANULAR && COVERED && BULK
21:47:48 <supermop> you would never need to state granular&&bulk
21:47:48 <andythenorth> etc
21:49:50 <andythenorth> in this case, grain probably wouldn't be granular :P
21:50:41 <andythenorth> hmm
21:50:50 * andythenorth tries to find a case that breaks this idea
21:52:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: an additional technical class: 'lightweight', or 'caged / staked'
21:52:22 <andythenorth> plant fibres....
21:52:35 <andythenorth> BULK or PIECE GOODS
21:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> bulk
21:52:56 <andythenorth> NOT POWDER, NOT GRANULAR
21:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> not piece
21:53:00 <andythenorth> baleds
21:53:04 <andythenorth> bales sorry
21:53:22 <Eddi|zuHause> technically yes, but probably rather not
21:53:42 <supermop> is bailed different than other things that stack?
21:53:47 <andythenorth> well...allow it for now to see if it makes my scheme unworkable in the implementation ;)
21:54:09 <andythenorth> so plant fibres travel by any vehicle implementing BULK or PIECE
21:54:22 <andythenorth> but NOT if it implements POWDER or GRANULAR
21:54:34 <supermop> sounds right
21:54:49 <andythenorth> but a vehicle set author may have allowed the open wagon to implement granular
21:54:52 <andythenorth> as that would make sense
21:55:06 <supermop> so it can be piled in a wagon or bailed on a flatbed
21:55:21 <andythenorth> but in this case the vehicle set author is...wrong
21:55:34 <andythenorth> because it's not a hopper
21:56:05 <andythenorth> they have conflated the fact that coal is granular with the fact that a wagon is adapted for unloading granular cargos
21:56:34 <andythenorth> the case is clear with refrigerated
21:56:57 <andythenorth> so perhaps it would just be simpler to introduce 'hopper' and 'silo' and stop confusing things
21:57:25 <andythenorth> base class
21:57:38 <andythenorth> technical adaptations of the vehicle
21:58:13 <supermop> but then you are back to the problem that a cargo is carried in different ways depending on the mode or transport?
21:58:13 <andythenorth> assume all vehicles are unrefrigerated boxes with no capacity for hazardous cargo
21:58:40 <andythenorth> does bulk versus piece goods make sense in my scheme?
21:58:47 <andythenorth> everything seems to resolve to 'solid' or liquid'
21:58:58 <andythenorth> I guess coal doesn't go by van
21:59:29 <planetmaker> pax && armored && bulk :-P
22:00:23 <supermop> what if each cargo just tagged the different ways it could be unloaded, and vehicles tag what ways they can unload
22:00:44 <planetmaker> that's what cargo classes work like in my understanding
22:01:47 <supermop> coal could be dump or scoop
22:01:59 <andythenorth> coal is just bulk
22:02:01 <andythenorth> :D
22:02:51 <andythenorth> my idea is workable as a clean concept
22:03:06 <andythenorth> and unworkable due to us being where we are with respect to code long written
22:03:09 <planetmaker> the problem are that a cargo cannot define (bulk && covered) || (piece goods)
22:03:43 <andythenorth> principally yes, the problem is that the assumption is the vehicle set author should do all the work
22:03:51 <planetmaker> so a vehicle has to guess how the cargo classes are meant
22:03:57 <planetmaker> yes
22:03:57 <andythenorth> this assumption was made by people who have not shipped large industry sets :P
22:04:27 <planetmaker> but otoh it makes sense to leave much of that decision to the vehicle set authors
22:04:41 <andythenorth> it means most cargos simply get defined as piece goods
22:05:08 <andythenorth> 'most' is a bit over-stating that case
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22:07:21 <planetmaker> well. the classes which eddi suggests in your tt-forums thread make sense. As additional ones
22:07:24 <Terkhen> good night
22:07:31 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
22:07:53 <__ln__> zomg, C++ 2011 final draft has been approved
22:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> damn, before DNF...
22:09:43 * andythenorth wonders if there's a sane way for a cargo and a vehicle to handshake and decide what scheme to use to set their classes
22:09:55 <andythenorth> so a new matching logic could be employed,
22:09:57 <planetmaker> that's what classes are about
22:10:05 <andythenorth> without needing all of callbacks and everything else to be changed
22:11:06 <andythenorth> so action 7 and action 0 blocks
22:11:10 <andythenorth> defining the classes
22:11:25 <andythenorth> for the vehicle, depending on the industry newgrf...
22:11:55 <planetmaker> I think I define myself now as cargo of the class 'sleeping person' in my dream vehicle type 'bed'
22:11:59 <andythenorth> heh
22:12:00 <planetmaker> good night :-)
22:12:03 <andythenorth> I should do the same
22:12:38 <andythenorth> or at least do something useful
22:13:09 <supermop> heh
22:14:55 <andythenorth> it's like picking a scab
22:15:03 <andythenorth> a person should know better :P
22:22:02 <frosch123> and result of the discussion?
22:22:07 <frosch123> *any
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22:36:47 <frosch123> night
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22:37:08 <frosch123> i am suspicious someone is going to steal me a hour of sleep
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23:19:38 <DanMacK> Hey all
23:20:07 <supermop> hello
23:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the night is short, i'll try sleeping.
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