IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-09
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00:10:31 <TruePikachu> It's too cluttered :S
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00:30:54 <supermop> hello
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02:14:13 <TruePikachu> Search for >> transport tycoon <<, first result is :D
02:14:45 <TruePikachu> Even before Wikipedia
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02:28:13 <Nite> here it is 3rd ...
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07:34:20 <Terkhen> good morning
07:39:37 <Rubidium> moi
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09:24:50 <peter1138> well then, my quad core system uses 130W at idle...
09:25:46 <peter1138> managed to get it up to 200W under load
09:25:55 <peter1138> so why do i have a 600W PSU in it?
09:26:09 <Noldo> someone sold it to you
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09:26:49 <peter1138> There's an 8800GT in there, and 3 HDDs...
09:27:53 <__ln__> peter1138: because PSUs' optimal operating condition is not 100% load.
09:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> you also need to put the graphics card under load
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09:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but 600W sounds slightly overpowered still
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09:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i was undecided between 430W and 500W
09:37:55 <Eddi|zuHause> for my hexacore
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09:41:59 <planetmaker> moin
09:45:33 <peter1138> __ln__, neither is it 33%
09:46:03 <__ln__> peter1138: why not?
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09:47:02 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: moat PSUs have their optimum at around 90% and have drastically lower efficiency if it deviates from that
09:47:03 <peter1138> apparently they're most efficient at 50-75% load
09:47:09 <peter1138> or 90%?
09:47:10 <peter1138> who knows
09:47:39 <Eddi|zuHause> in any case, 30% sounds way out of the optimal range :p
09:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you can assume that the higher the range, the more expensive the PSU
09:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but presuming you measured the "outside" consumption when you got these 130W, the PSU seems to be pretty good
09:51:13 <peter1138>
09:51:17 <peter1138> ^ doesn't look that bad
09:51:23 <peter1138> (for that specific supply anyway)
09:51:28 <peter1138> yeah, true, i did
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10:01:36 <andythenorth_> sulphur mine for FIRS?
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10:33:08 <DoubleYou> andythenorth_: where would it be processed? :)
10:33:22 <andythenorth_> dunno
10:34:20 <DoubleYou> i know sulfur has been collected similarly for quite a while, although i haven't heard that they did it from an active volcano where it just pours out like that
10:34:36 <DoubleYou> pretty impressive
10:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> we need to implement programmable signals. MB starts to sound like a broken record...
10:36:20 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, lovely... and how should that influence the pathfinder?
10:37:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: by a penalty. what other way is there to influence a pathfinder?
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10:38:58 <Rubidium> but... will the signal always show red, i.e. the train must NOT be routed through there, or will it eventually become green, i.e. the train should not but CAN be routed through there
10:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: what i am worried about the most is the lack of entry-signal in pbs-stations
10:39:40 <Rubidium> aren't they all entry signals?
10:40:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i mean a signal directly in front of the platform, for assigning trains to platforms
10:40:43 <Rubidium> that'd then be exit signals
10:41:16 <Rubidium> and falls back to: a signal that can be red, but isn't a safe waiting point
10:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it'd be silly to assign "entry" rules to "exit" signals
10:41:57 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but it's where you're allowed to exit the signal block
10:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: my point is, players should not have to readd these signals, after PBS removed the need for those
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10:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so you need some way to tell the actual entry signal, which exits are preferred, without having signals on these exits
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10:53:07 <JVassie> I'm running ChillCore's pathpack and trying to set up some timetables, how come the 'start date' box is greyed out permanently?
10:53:22 <JVassie> (r21900M)
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11:05:19 <Terkhen> JVassie: did you test if the same occurs in a nightly or beta?
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11:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> my guess it's something the automatted timetable and separation patch does.
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11:18:41 <lugo> mornings
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11:20:24 <Terkhen> hi lugo
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11:46:47 <JVassie> Terkhen, no i haven't
11:46:50 <JVassie> actually
11:47:18 <JVassie> i know r21054M works fine
11:47:53 <Terkhen> JVassie: then you should ask at the patchpack thread, as it is probably something related to the patches mentioned by Eddi
11:48:06 <JVassie> ok will do
11:48:07 <JVassie> :)
11:48:08 <JVassie> thx
11:48:13 <Terkhen> yw
11:49:37 <JVassie> couldnt see anything in the automated tiemtable thread about it, but didnt read every post of course
11:51:00 <Rubidium> but he adds multiple patches together which will collide with eachother, so it might very well be something of the patchpack itself
11:51:12 <Ammler> lzma detection is failing sometime
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11:55:36 <Ammler> if I build dedicated version, it doesn't detect liblzma 4.999.9beta
11:55:41 <Ammler> what could be the difference?
11:58:04 <Rubidium> missing something
11:58:30 <Rubidium> like pkg-config
11:59:20 <Ammler> yep :-)
11:59:44 <Ammler> now I need to check, which of the gui package installs that
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12:04:36 <Rubidium> which in essence means liblzma2-devel (or whaterver it's called) is missing a dependency
12:09:11 <Ammler> pkg-config isn't the failure
12:09:29 <Ammler> pkg-config on the gui version doesn't return something
12:09:58 <Rubidium> pkg-config liblzma --modversion really should return something
12:11:33 <Ammler> hmm, indeed, strange
12:13:02 <Ammler> non-suse distors don't even know the package pkg-config
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12:22:19 <Ammler> <-- xz-devel is installed but not detected
12:23:09 <Ammler> <-- non-dedicated version detects it
12:24:44 <Ammler> this only happen with zx < 5.0
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12:25:44 <Ammler> openSUSE 11.3 with xz 5.0.1 works fine
12:26:19 <Ammler> also on Fedora with 4.999 works
12:27:02 <Ammler> <-- spec
12:30:27 <Ammler> :-( no idea
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12:55:58 <Ammler> I just added pkg-config for older suses manually :-/
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12:59:20 <dihedral> good morning
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13:00:04 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22035 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: refactor (display) unit conversion to happen at a single place
13:05:16 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22036 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: rename units to match coding style, and give conversion variables a more descriptive name
13:10:14 <dihedral> Yexo, planetmaker: is hiding settings not a solution? allowing a button to toggle which settings are visible?
13:10:21 <dihedral> i.e. full or basic
13:10:59 <dihedral> and then also get all settings into the gui, but hidden by default (e.g. the penalty settings for yapf)
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13:13:01 <Rubidium> dihedral: psychology 101; oh, more settings! I want! So 99% will have full turned on, regardless whether it's useful for them
13:13:23 <SmatZ> hehe :)
13:13:50 <Rubidium> and then they mess with the pathfinder settings and we are basically screwed as we have to support them
13:15:21 <andythenorth> can't we just quietly garden out settings
13:15:33 <andythenorth> say, two per minor version or something
13:15:55 <andythenorth> mm
13:16:14 <andythenorth> when me and the maker of planets were last looking at GUI - there was talk of consolidating a lot of settings
13:16:19 <andythenorth> or at least menus
13:16:37 <dihedral> Rubidium, normal psychology does not work with our clients :-D
13:16:50 <andythenorth> there's a mini-blizzard of game options / difficulty settings / advanced settings / options from the game menus
13:16:53 <Rubidium> dihedral: that's why it's 101 psychology
13:17:00 <dihedral> :-D
13:17:07 <dihedral> it was just an idea ;-)
13:17:16 <Rubidium> andythenorth: I agree there are too many places for settings
13:17:24 <Rubidium> though unifying settings is somewhat troublesome
13:17:27 <andythenorth> we did start figuring out how to clean it up
13:17:32 <dihedral> the task i am looking at is trying to get that bot ready in time for the stable release :-P
13:17:33 <andythenorth> it wasn't just a case of 'easy to say'
13:17:39 <andythenorth> we actually did do some work
13:17:43 <andythenorth> but it was a while ago :(
13:17:51 <andythenorth> and users did whine about some of our ideas
13:18:01 <andythenorth> omg
13:18:15 <dihedral> andythenorth, users always whine about something
13:18:16 <andythenorth> is tool tip hover time really need an easy-to-get to setting?
13:18:28 <andythenorth> this is a bit like windows 95
13:18:33 <dihedral> as long as they don't give constructive feedback, you can simpile 2>&1 >/dev/null
13:18:34 <andythenorth> crappy options for everything
13:19:11 <Ammler> andythenorth: there are already way too few settings available
13:19:31 <andythenorth> :P
13:19:47 * andythenorth thinks a lot of them make sense
13:19:54 <andythenorth> and some are bonkers
13:19:59 * dihedral misses the unique id though :-P
13:20:01 <Ammler> openttd is too much ruled by devs
13:20:12 <dihedral> pffft, Ammler
13:20:29 <andythenorth> is a choice of pathfinder really still useful in the GUI?
13:20:33 <dihedral> or are you implying that you miss a project manager?
13:20:45 <dihedral> at least for ships :-P
13:20:59 <andythenorth> dihedral: it's not useful for ships
13:21:15 <andythenorth> using anything but original will leave the game stuttering with more than about 50 ships
13:21:19 <Ammler> andythenorth: oh, you meant just settings available from gui...
13:21:29 <dihedral> andythenorth, so?
13:21:36 <dihedral> i might still want it for my ships
13:21:44 <andythenorth> so go edit the config
13:21:44 <dihedral> because i might play a single player game and only need like 10
13:22:02 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22037 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: remove some unneeded (hidden) casting
13:22:09 * andythenorth routes dihedral's suggestion to /dev/null
13:22:22 <andythenorth> why would I want to disable electric rails?
13:23:03 <planetmaker> the main issue is the three to 6 different places for settings (depending on how you count)
13:23:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: we did have a good think about this before
13:23:21 <planetmaker> yeah, I recall that...
13:23:30 <andythenorth> a lot of the interesting / useful options in advanced settings relate to difficulty
13:23:36 <Ammler> the cheat menu is useless
13:23:36 <andythenorth> or setting up a competitive MP game
13:23:38 <planetmaker> can you make my days have 48 hours? ;-)
13:24:12 <andythenorth> :)
13:24:17 * andythenorth has a baby
13:24:23 <andythenorth> my days have about three hours
13:24:26 <andythenorth> the baby gets the rest of them
13:24:31 <planetmaker> options, adv. settings, cheat, difficulty, newgrf, ai, transparency, graphics settings (ingame menu),...
13:24:44 <andythenorth> I can't see many really pointless GUI settings
13:24:52 <andythenorth> I reckon they could be counted on two hands
13:24:58 <Ammler> yes, difficulty menu is also useless
13:25:10 <planetmaker> quite
13:25:13 <andythenorth> it's probably not too much pain to garden some away into 'edit config'
13:25:30 <planetmaker> there was the idea to move the "difficulty" to a newgrf reported difficulty and be done with it.
13:25:40 <planetmaker> so a setting to control newgrfs
13:25:48 <planetmaker> I like it actually ;-)
13:25:55 <Ammler> there should rather be a kind of settings preset like we already have for newgrfs
13:26:02 <planetmaker> that's another issue
13:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the approach with different "levels" of visible options is the most promising: few/medium/all/really all
13:26:10 <planetmaker> But unrelated to removing difficulty
13:26:30 <Ammler> difficulty level is a kind of setting presets
13:26:40 <planetmaker> I don't like "really all" for the reason Rubidium said: the non-GUI settings are non-GUI for a reason
13:27:55 <Ammler> few=the settings from create a new map
13:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "really all" could be a non-GUI option ;)
13:28:55 <planetmaker> that *might* be an option
13:29:28 <Ammler> it would also be nice, if you could enable MP gui via rcon or so
13:29:30 <andythenorth> we did before consolidate to something like this "
13:29:38 <andythenorth> there would still be a 'settings' somewhere
13:29:44 <andythenorth> which would act like application preferences
13:30:00 <andythenorth> we distinguished gameplay settings / behaviour from app settings / behaviour
13:30:14 <andythenorth> then we agreed it was a big project
13:30:21 <andythenorth> and we did nothing else :P
13:30:33 <andythenorth> but alberth shipped a new newgrf gui
13:30:33 <planetmaker> I still all have that... but time... :-)
13:30:39 <andythenorth> the end
13:30:42 <andythenorth> :)
13:30:49 <planetmaker> he :-)
13:30:58 <andythenorth> I'm not that arsed about it at the moment
13:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> random thought: presets could work like transparency settings. there the presets are "all on" and "all off", but you can ctrl+click to force keeping a setting on preset change
13:31:14 <andythenorth> I would rather right now murder some of the stupider settings
13:31:19 <andythenorth> then do RoadTypes :D
13:31:45 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, what is "on" or "off" with "town permissivity": hostile / medium / lovely ?
13:31:57 <planetmaker> (or however it's actually called)
13:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, the names or the contents of the presets would need to be discussed.
13:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure there should be user-definable presets as well (like newgrf presets)
13:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: this was more about the "lock this setting" feature
13:33:59 <Rubidium> planetmaker: with a fast plane you actually can, though you would have to sacrifice half the days
13:35:50 <Rubidium> yeah, all on == set everything to 1. I'd love that...
13:36:06 <Rubidium> massive pathfinder breakage
13:36:15 <Rubidium> trains turning around after a day at signals
13:36:49 <Eddi|zuHause> now you're just misunderstanding me non purpose
13:38:53 <Rubidium> nah, I'm just lagging
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13:39:21 <Rubidium> took a while to actually understand the idea
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13:43:13 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, presets for the settings are definitely a good idea (from my personal POV)
13:43:33 <planetmaker> It'd ease my task to create different games for different servers / purposes
13:44:02 <Rubidium> that'd mean a complete revamp of the configuration file format
13:44:48 <Rubidium> oh... and to hell with it: I'd even suggest something like xml, as nesting with xml is so much easier
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13:45:20 <Rubidium> though making the schema could be somewhat non-trivial, although... I think it can be autogenerated
13:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the last time we completely revamped the config file, we got endless amounts of complaints from people who went back and forth between stable and new stable :p
13:46:32 <andythenorth> Rubidium: :o
13:46:40 <andythenorth> a valid use for xml?
13:46:43 <andythenorth> how bizarre :)
13:47:00 <Rubidium> I'd suggest to not even try reading the old configuration file
13:47:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there ARE valid (to some) uses of violence as well :p
13:47:21 <andythenorth> OS X uses xml for storing preferences
13:47:23 <andythenorth> it's slightly sane
13:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's probably less problematic than trying to do pseudo-nesting in ini-files
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14:03:38 <DanMacK> Hey all
14:08:03 <andythenorth> hi DanMacK
14:08:55 <avdg> hi
14:11:48 <Belugas> hello
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14:40:29 <andythenorth> how do I use string code 9A0Dh in this UTF string?
14:40:29 <andythenorth> 1627 * 25 04 0B B8 01 3A DC C3 9E "\UE07C of bauxite" 00
14:45:18 <peter1138> UTF-8 encode it
14:45:26 <andythenorth> frick
14:45:29 <andythenorth> this is annoying :)
14:45:44 <Rubidium> just 9A 0D ?
14:45:52 <peter1138> oh, 9A 0D
14:46:00 <peter1138> that's not the same as 9A0D
14:47:18 <andythenorth> ok
14:47:28 <andythenorth> produces this:
14:47:44 <andythenorth> do I need to explicitly dump this item from the stack?
14:48:10 <Rubidium> what does TEXT_CRG_BAUXITE_CARGOAMOUNT contain?
14:48:23 <andythenorth> #define TEXT_CRG_BAUXITE_CARGOAMOUNT "\UE07C of bauxite"
14:48:35 <Rubidium> well, then remove the \UE07C
14:48:41 <andythenorth> what does that do?
14:48:45 <Rubidium> that's what the 3,221,209,136 comes from
14:48:49 <andythenorth> I thought that prevented unicode explosions?
14:49:14 <Rubidium> andythenorth: StringCodes | 7C Print signed word
14:49:26 * andythenorth does face palm
14:49:33 <andythenorth> today is not a good day for me reading spec correctly :(
14:50:54 * andythenorth does declare win
14:50:55 <andythenorth> thanks :)
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14:55:19 <avdg> bleh, the wiki is slow now
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14:57:33 <Wolf01> hello
14:57:38 <avdg> hi
14:59:06 * andythenorth ponders
14:59:21 <andythenorth> 'n tonnes' is available as a string code
14:59:25 <andythenorth> 'n crates' may not be
14:59:31 <andythenorth> although I may just be overlooking it
15:00:38 <Rubidium> crates isn't as it isn't configurable by the user
15:00:53 <andythenorth> ok
15:01:01 <andythenorth> I'll just construct strings for those ones
15:05:20 <andythenorth> I thought I would be able to print 'crates' as a substring using 81 54 00
15:05:23 <andythenorth> but that doesn't seem to work
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15:09:11 <andythenorth> hmm
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15:43:38 <Wolfsherz> excuse me, but where can i download a *recent* version of "Total Town Replacement Set"? someone knows?
15:44:50 <planetmaker> we don'te excuse to not have used the online content available from ingame, I'm afraid
15:44:58 <planetmaker> or define 'recent'
15:47:49 <Wolfsherz> when using FIRS it states that i should use ttrs 3.02b, but in online content there it only version 3.02a available.
15:48:22 <planetmaker> ha, ok :-)
15:48:45 <planetmaker> There's no 3.02b around, but I created some updated version of TTRS, but that indeed is not yet on bananas.
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15:48:59 <planetmaker> Find it at the DevZone:
15:49:22 <planetmaker> Probably I should finish the edits soonish and upload it as 3.10 ;-)
15:49:32 <Wolfsherz> thank you planetmaker =)
15:51:09 <planetmaker> with the old TTRS you'd get banks dealing with sand ;-) - so it has to be incompatible with FIRS ;-)
15:53:29 <Wolfsherz> i see =) another question, you state that dbsetxl is partially supported, what does that mean exactly?
15:54:01 <planetmaker> it doesn't supply wagons for all cargos
15:54:42 <planetmaker> there's somewhere an extension to the dbset which fixes things for FIRS 0.5.x - but might be that it again broke for 0.6. I haven't tested it
15:55:04 <Wolfsherz> hm :( i love dbsetxl...
15:55:13 <planetmaker> And the author unfortunately never uploads his newgrfs to bananas, so finding it is made a pain to all for whatever reason.
15:56:30 <planetmaker> maybe you can convince him ;-)
15:57:02 <Wolfsherz> i dont think i can ...
15:57:18 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22038 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix (r21406): Tab completion in chat did not cycle through all possible options.
15:58:07 <planetmaker> I'd buy you a beer if you could ;-)
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16:00:52 <Wolfsherz> still fiddling around and trying to get a nice set of newgrfs for my games
16:02:59 <Wolfsherz> sorry, but i'll need to drop firs until there is a proper dbsetxl support for it.
16:03:13 <Wolfsherz> dont want to play with american trains =)
16:03:31 <Terkhen> isn't there a FIRS addon for it?
16:04:05 <Wolfsherz> there is, but as planetmaker stated, its just partially supported
16:04:10 <Terkhen> oh, sorry :)
16:04:52 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I'm not sure about the (new) alcohol cargo. Most probable it is supported, but I don't really know
16:06:21 <Terkhen> I see :)
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16:19:08 <DanMacK> DBXL FIRS extension does support Alcohol
16:19:23 <planetmaker> good to know. Thanks .-)
16:19:29 <planetmaker> ^ Wolfsherz
16:20:12 <DanMacK> EGRVTS on the other hand
16:20:22 <Wolfsherz> hmm, well then i'll give it a shot :) thank you DanMacK and planetmaker
16:25:24 <planetmaker> hm, yes, read that with egrvts. sad :-(
16:25:46 <planetmaker> let's hope he'll bring out just a tiny bug fix to the current version which fixes that very issue
16:25:56 <planetmaker> that'd be quite enough for the time being
16:30:48 * Terkhen would also like a power/tractive effort revision of EGRVTS
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16:35:12 <planetmaker> :-)
16:35:52 <planetmaker> I wonder whether Zephyris can be talked into an intermediate release, w/o new graphics, but with these fixes and additions
16:36:39 <Terkhen> that would be great, but it sounds like the most boring part :)
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16:39:19 <planetmaker> I'll ask / prod him ;-)
16:39:56 <Terkhen> ok :)
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17:10:20 <supermop> hello
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17:13:25 <DanMacK> Hey supermop, WB Andy
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18:01:04 <IchGuckLive> Hi all , when i plant trees in the desert,does it give me on any point a green land ?
18:01:37 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
18:01:38 <andythenorth> no
18:02:14 <IchGuckLive> Thanks
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18:07:25 <supermop> how is everyone?
18:09:36 <DanMacK> not bad, enjoying my day off. you?
18:10:08 <andythenorth> DanMacK: you have painting time? :P
18:10:11 <andythenorth> :)
18:11:04 <DanMacK> Perhaps...
18:11:09 * DanMacK wonders what to paint...
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18:20:55 <Belugas> my house
18:22:46 <peter1138> paint it black
18:23:07 <Ammler> or transparent
18:23:37 <peter1138> i don't think there was ever a song called "or transparent"
18:25:36 <DanMacK> heh
18:31:00 <Belugas> :D
18:31:33 <Belugas> I see a red door and I want it paint in black...
18:33:05 * andythenorth ponders industry 'upgrading' again
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18:33:50 <andythenorth> is there a way to shuffle the contents of some tiles off to some memory for a bit...
18:33:57 <andythenorth> then try overbuilding them, if fails, shuffle the contents back
18:34:03 <andythenorth> and the game doesn't notice :P
18:34:24 <dihedral> oi
18:34:28 <Terkhen> IIRC something like that is done for testing vehicle refits
18:35:15 <andythenorth> it would make sense
18:35:34 <Hirundo> it's certainly possible with turing machines
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18:45:39 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22039 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt dutch.txt korean.txt serbian.txt):
18:45:39 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:39 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
18:45:39 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by junho2813
18:45:39 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 99 changes by Luis_Mizuchiro
18:45:41 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: serbian - 1 changes by etran
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18:47:19 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22040 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: handle case where too many Engines would be loaded, and ensure we don't overfill the SpriteGroup pool
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18:56:02 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: smatz * r22041 /trunk/src/ (core/pool_func.hpp core/pool_type.hpp stdafx.h): -Codechange: add a check that we called PoolItem::CanAllocateItem() before actually allocating it
18:56:54 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: smatz * r22042 /trunk/src/saveload/oldloader_sl.cpp: -Fix: when loading a TTO/TTD savegame, verify we can allocate a CargoPacket before actually trying to do so
18:59:46 <andythenorth> are cargo icons used anywhere besides station window?
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19:10:01 <Alberth> not even at the refit window :(
19:12:34 <Terkhen> it would be nice to display them there, yes :)
19:12:41 * Zuu pounders displaying the NewGRF window when clicking on new scenario/SE-button and then when you okay the NewGRF settings, a new scenario is created in the editor.
19:13:58 <andythenorth> dunno if I can be bothered to test them
19:14:04 <andythenorth> I am updating them
19:14:10 <andythenorth> but delivering to 32 stations is dull
19:14:32 <andythenorth> can the industry chain view use them?
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19:22:55 <Alberth> trails of cargo bits instead of coloured bars?
19:23:31 <andythenorth> bleach
19:23:40 <andythenorth> just once next to the name?
19:23:43 <andythenorth> I'm not sure it will look good
19:23:50 * Alberth donates a farm feeder suggestion to the firs wiki page
19:25:09 <andythenorth> yay
19:26:59 <Alberth> hmm, the PDF page is also not yet linked there
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19:28:55 <andythenorth> PDF page?
19:29:10 <Alberth> with all the industries and cargoes between them
19:29:36 <andythenorth>
19:32:05 <supermop> hmm,
19:32:24 <supermop> can a house influence what houses may located near it?
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19:33:46 <supermop> ie, 'house A' is very rare, but has a higher chaance of appearing on a tile next to aanother 'house a'
19:39:35 <Alberth> andythenorth:
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20:09:41 <andythenorth> hmm
20:09:42 <andythenorth>
20:09:46 <andythenorth> he's not actually wrong
20:09:48 <andythenorth> still
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20:12:08 <Alberth> the theory is nice, practice will be very different :)
20:12:36 * andythenorth wonders what he was coding
20:12:38 <andythenorth> brain freeze
20:12:45 <andythenorth> hmm
20:12:46 <andythenorth> cargo icons
20:12:51 <Alberth> a firs wiki page :p
20:13:05 <andythenorth> the 'community' can do that :)
20:14:13 <Alberth> and I was so curious for some secret tips from the master of firs :)
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20:14:27 <andythenorth> deliver stuff
20:14:29 <andythenorth> get more stuff
20:14:34 <andythenorth> deliver it to other places
20:14:41 <andythenorth> transfers are good
20:14:51 <andythenorth> hmm
20:14:57 <andythenorth> seen the tao of python?
20:15:01 <andythenorth> maybe tao of FIRS...
20:16:20 <andythenorth> hmm
20:16:34 <andythenorth> the tao of python pretty much *is* the tao of FIRS :o
20:17:04 <andythenorth> "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
20:17:04 <andythenorth> Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch."
20:17:15 <andythenorth> FooBar is dutch :)
20:19:49 <Alberth> is FIRS turing complete?
20:19:59 <andythenorth> I have *no* idea :)
20:20:02 <andythenorth> how do you test that?
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20:24:06 <Alberth> in practice Turing completeness means that the rules followed in sequence on arbitrary data can produce the result of any calculation. This requires, at a minimum, conditional branching (an "if" and "goto" statement) and the ability to change arbitrary memory locations
20:24:11 <Alberth> according to wikipedia
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20:26:35 <andythenorth> probably not turing complete then
20:26:58 <andythenorth> is nfo turing complete?
20:32:13 <Alberth> does it have a sequence of instructions?
20:33:24 <andythenorth> it has bytes in a row
20:33:26 <andythenorth> :P
20:34:18 <andythenorth> we should apply this to patches get blocked by trying to find the perfect way to do things:
20:34:22 <andythenorth> "Now is better than never."
20:35:10 <Alberth> I would be happy to have my patch working at all, currently :)
20:35:23 <Rubidium> andythenorth: so you'd like to use the old PBS implementation?
20:35:53 <andythenorth> yes please
20:35:56 <Rubidium> (even the new PBS implementation wasn't perfect in the begin)
20:36:01 <andythenorth> if you could just add a setting for the old one...
20:38:06 <Alberth> I told you practice is different :)
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20:45:21 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22043 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: invalidate the right windows when a part of a train is flipped in the depot
20:45:52 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22044 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4493]: update the consist cache when a part of a train is flipped in the depot
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20:57:40 * andythenorth stares at 94 open FIRS tickets
20:58:14 <andythenorth> better than 4494 fs tickets :P
20:58:14 <Alberth> anyone interesting enough to solve?
20:58:22 <andythenorth> maybe not tonight
20:58:51 <andythenorth> I need to stop industry smoke animation being in sync
20:58:54 <andythenorth> dunno how yet
20:59:12 <Alberth> luckily most of those 4000 are closed already :)
21:04:44 * andythenorth ponders a patch for fencing tiles
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21:12:36 * andythenorth suspects the answer will be 'do it nfo'
21:12:42 <andythenorth> :|
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21:39:35 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22045 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Move cancelling the current loading order on deleting the current order to a separate function.
21:40:45 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: frosch * r22046 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp order_func.h saveload/afterload.cpp): -Fix [FS#4487]: Make sure order indices stay in range when copying, sharing, unsharing or deleting all orders.
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22:02:25 <dihedral> Zuu, everything is grey at night :-P
22:03:14 <andythenorth> good night
22:03:15 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:04:57 <Rubidium> dihedral: really? I've done this research... and in the European summer at the north pole it's light at night, and in the winter it's light at the south pole. So, at either pole it's light in the winter and summer, so currently "day night" works just fine
22:05:32 <dihedral> i did not know openttd had poles :-P
22:05:39 *** Chillosophy has quit IRC
22:05:45 <Rubidium> dihedral: I'm talking about the real world here
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22:05:57 <Zuu> Also if I look out of my window I only see black and lights.
22:05:58 <Chris_Booth_> I didn't know openttd had day cycles
22:06:20 <Zuu> (apart from the reflections)
22:06:28 <Rubidium> Zuu: that must be a measurement error
22:06:28 <Belugas> night
22:06:39 <Rubidium> night Belugas
22:07:09 <dihedral> Chris_Booth, at least one every tick :-P
22:07:11 <Zuu> Maby OpenTTD should use the video camera of the computer (if the user have one) to create a mirror image to blend with the night mode picture.
22:07:53 <Pulec> for what setting is openttd trully hardcore?
22:07:57 <Zuu> And if users complain, we'll tell them that it is realistic. :-)
22:08:02 <Pulec> i am fun of loosing is fun!
22:08:04 <Pulec> :D
22:08:06 <Pulec> *fan
22:08:22 <Zuu> Station spread := min value
22:08:31 <Pulec> spread?
22:08:45 <Zuu> that gives the largest size of a station you can build.
22:08:45 <Terkhen> good night
22:08:46 <Pulec> for loading and stuff?
22:08:55 <Zuu> Set it to 4, and you can't build stations larger than 4x4
22:09:00 <Pulec> well that does not make sense
22:09:05 <Rubidium> enable reversing at signals, set the timeout to 1
22:09:06 <Pulec> when some city is big
22:09:11 <Pulec> i would need like 10 stations
22:09:13 <Zuu> You wanted to have it hard.
22:09:20 <Pulec> thats not the hard i want
22:09:33 <Rubidium> disable "improved catchment area"
22:09:33 <Zuu> You didn't specify what kind of hard you wanted..
22:09:43 <Pulec> the point of the game should be build transport network small enough and effective enough
22:09:54 <Pulec> because after you get to + finnacialy
22:10:00 <Zuu> Get BaseCost mod and set all costs factors to <a large number>.
22:10:01 <Pulec> you can build islands just for fun
22:10:13 <V453000> sorry, did I hear "SMALL" ?
22:10:20 <Pulec> but it wont make you make your trains and busses work effectively
22:10:26 <Pulec> and its very hard in big network
22:10:49 <Pulec> small because of the managment of the network
22:10:56 <Pulec> if its big its get complicated
22:11:02 <dihedral> set all 4 limit settings to 0
22:11:06 <Pulec> and everything affects everything
22:11:15 <dihedral> V453000, you have a highlight an "small"??
22:11:18 <V453000> well, you have to find some good way how to manage it all when the network gets bigger then :)
22:11:21 <Zuu> With a low station size limit, you will be forced to set up more connections. Creating a more mesh style of network.
22:11:25 <Pulec> then the real fun is in goal servers or what?
22:11:29 <V453000> dihedral: no, just hit me in the eye :p
22:11:48 <dihedral> i was wondering if they used to call you that at school :-D
22:12:11 <V453000> duh :)
22:12:12 <dihedral> with limits set to 0 you will be forced to build with the terrain :-)
22:12:24 <V453000> :)
22:12:39 <V453000> that would be ... interesting, mostly impossible :)
22:12:47 <Zuu> Turn of building on slope and you get even more fun :-)
22:12:49 <V453000> if you cared not to build "small" :p
22:13:06 <Pulec> i dont understand your limits
22:13:14 <V453000> then get long fast trains and you are fucked twice :p
22:13:16 <Pulec> i like to make openttd more realistic...
22:13:24 <V453000> Pulec: limits of terraforming
22:13:35 <V453000> max_terraform_burst or something like that
22:13:39 <Pulec> does transport comapnys get huuuge amounts of money like in game?
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22:13:50 <Pulec> i am looking forward for that ibm city project
22:13:59 <V453000> Pulec: it is a game, not reality btw
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22:14:05 <Pulec> i know
22:14:13 <Pulec> but i use realistic setting for train
22:14:26 <Pulec> and i like the idea ibm had
22:14:36 <V453000> you use realistic acceleration ... they could have also called it "advanced acceleration" and you would use it then?
22:14:38 <Pulec> make solution for real problem in a game
22:14:59 <Pulec> if it was advanced i would still use it
22:15:02 <Pulec> name is not important
22:15:05 <Pulec> the effect is
22:15:22 <V453000> then what does it have to do with realism :)
22:15:27 <Pulec> it just looks really stupid that train going over 100km/h stopes because of few high slopes
22:16:01 <Rubidium> it's also stupid that a train takes days to get up to top speed
22:16:12 <V453000> :D
22:16:13 <Rubidium> and needs thousands of kilometers for that
22:16:17 <V453000> nice point :D
22:16:22 <Pulec> well thats the problem of the time
22:16:29 <Pulec> but in real time for player it looks good
22:16:47 <Pulec> but how long is one title?
22:16:52 <Pulec> 1km?
22:17:22 <Chris_Booth_> well that is an issue
22:17:23 <Rubidium> about 668 kilometer
22:17:48 <V453000> :D
22:17:49 <V453000> :D
22:18:04 <Chris_Booth_> it realy depends on if you use scale or time as your measure
22:18:13 <Chris_Booth_> if you use scale you really are fucked
22:18:33 <Pulec> one title?
22:18:35 <Pulec> wtfff?
22:18:37 <Chris_Booth_> since builds, trains, RVs, Plane and Boats all are in different scales
22:18:52 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth_: but their tiles are all 668 kilometer
22:18:52 <Pulec> any czech users here?
22:18:56 <Pulec> i wanna make web pages
22:19:00 <Pulec> i make now
22:19:00 <Chris_Booth_> in time 1 day is ~ 2 seconds
22:19:06 <V453000> what do you need webpage for
22:19:09 <Pulec> and make a list of recommended settings
22:19:20 <Pulec> defaults is wierd
22:19:28 <Pulec> too many towns in bigger map :D
22:19:30 <V453000> what for example
22:19:40 <dihedral> ...?
22:19:42 <Pulec> and the original train speeding
22:19:43 <V453000> well, that is why openttd has so many settings - configure them
22:19:50 <Pulec> i DO THAT
22:19:51 <Pulec> lol
22:19:56 <V453000> original train acceleration isnt default for a long time
22:19:58 <Pulec> but i would like to make list of settings
22:20:04 <Pulec> is not?
22:20:15 <dihedral> feel free to make a list of settings :-P
22:20:18 <Pulec> i always had it set fr that
22:20:27 <Pulec> yeah i am feeling freee :P
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22:20:34 <dihedral> cat openttd.cfg > list_of_settings
22:20:38 <V453000> there is no set of good settings, play as you like
22:20:42 <Pulec> i was just asking for czech people here
22:20:45 <Pulec> sigh
22:20:47 <V453000> I am czech
22:20:58 <dihedral> V453000, you just got yourself a new friend :-D
22:21:04 <Pulec> and you are in london?
22:21:08 <Pulec> great
22:21:12 <V453000> london?
22:21:15 <V453000> wtf are you talking about
22:21:21 <Chris_Booth_> lol he is not in london
22:21:26 <Pulec> whois told me that :D
22:21:31 <dihedral> ...
22:21:33 <V453000> whois obviously knows shit :)
22:21:35 <Chris_Booth_> whois is wrong
22:21:44 <dihedral> whois told you the server he is connected to ;-)
22:21:48 <Pulec> moravia or bohemia then?
22:21:55 <dihedral> not which country he is from
22:22:00 <V453000> bohemia, but I dont see how it matters :)
22:22:02 <SmatZ> [23:21:30] [Whois] Pulec is online via (London, United Kingdom).
22:22:07 <V453000> :D
22:22:08 <Pulec> yeah
22:22:10 <Pulec> fail for me
22:22:13 <SmatZ> oooo Pulec is from London!
22:22:29 <Pulec> i would rather kill myself then by in London
22:22:33 <SmatZ> :P
22:22:35 <Chris_Booth_> SmatZ: so are you :P
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22:22:45 <SmatZ> :)
22:22:48 <Chris_Booth_> what is wrong with london?
22:22:50 <Pulec> i was there on LSD few times, good times, but that city is so ***** big
22:22:54 <dihedral> and SmatZ likes music :-P
22:22:57 <Pulec> i like nature
22:22:58 <Pulec> not london
22:23:07 <SmatZ> Pulec: are you on LSD now?
22:23:15 <Pulec> no
22:23:18 <Chris_Booth_> London is amazing!
22:23:27 <Pulec> i am just getting high from my own flowers
22:23:31 * dihedral preferes Oxford
22:23:31 <Pulec> great for playing ottd
22:23:37 <Pulec> but i rather play some Dwarf Fortress
22:23:38 <SmatZ> ok :p
22:23:46 <V453000> I suddenly see why do you need realism in openttd
22:23:49 <dihedral> SmatZ, so, yes he is :-D
22:23:54 <Pulec> V453000 i was asking bohemia or moravia because i am deciding which university to go to
22:24:06 <Pulec> brno is cool but school sux, praha sux, but school is great
22:24:15 <Pulec> really?
22:24:19 <Pulec> why i need realism then?
22:24:20 <Pulec> lol
22:24:22 <Pulec> because of the drugs
22:24:24 <Pulec> lol yey
22:24:25 <Pulec> :D
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22:24:40 <Pulec> yeah i like to stay in reality most of the time
22:24:43 <dihedral> after that monoloque id not bother with thinking about uni just yet :-P
22:24:49 <SmatZ> :)
22:25:13 <Pulec> yeah sorry for that
22:25:22 <dihedral> you're welcome
22:25:23 <Pulec> i find myself doing that last few days a lot
22:25:28 <Chris_Booth_> Reality is overrated
22:25:31 <Pulec> its the goji berries
22:25:52 <dihedral> SmatZ, that too should answer your question
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22:26:34 <Pulec> damn that should be query command
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22:40:50 <SmatZ> Chris_Booth_: FS#4495 needs a savegame
22:41:14 <Chris_Booth_> SmatZ: its a multi player game
22:41:22 <Chris_Booth_> and I am current testing something
22:41:28 <Chris_Booth_> I may actualy close it
22:42:08 <Chris_Booth_> ok I am closing it
22:42:21 <SmatZ> ...
22:43:03 <Chris_Booth_> its not a openttd error
22:43:08 <Chris_Booth_> its a UKRS error
22:43:15 <Chris_Booth_> I can add a save if you want
22:43:27 <SmatZ> yes
22:43:32 <Chris_Booth_> but game only crashes when I clone a UKRS 2 train
22:43:39 <Chris_Booth_> and not any other trains
22:43:46 <SmatZ> still it shouldn't crash
22:45:47 <planetmaker> good late evening
22:45:55 <SmatZ> hello planetmaker
22:47:52 * Rubidium ponders making the glorious comment: can't join the server
22:48:09 <SmatZ> :)
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22:49:44 <Chris_Booth_> Rubidium: no one can join the server I add a save. server should have a save aswell
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