IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-02-04
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00:01:34 <CaNsA> yoyoyo guys, ive noticed a bug in openttd r21941 that isnt on the current changle log
00:01:43 <CaNsA> where can i report it?
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00:02:12 <Maarten> :)
00:02:16 <CaNsA> cheers
00:05:10 <CaNsA> done :D
00:05:11 <CaNsA>
00:05:54 <Yexo> I don't really understand it
00:06:06 <Yexo> the intercontinental airport is bigger, just like I'd expect from the naming
00:06:34 <Yexo> only the preview is a bit smaller, because otherwise the window would become too big
00:07:29 <CaNsA> the actual size is wrong. also, an intercontinental airport should be smaller than and airport that is intertnational
00:07:47 <Yexo> that makes no sense
00:07:59 <CaNsA> continents are smaller than the world.
00:08:02 <Yexo> intercontinental = between continents, ie between africa and europe
00:08:12 <Yexo> international = between nations, ie between england and germany
00:08:24 <CaNsA> international = covering the world
00:09:11 <Yexo> you're using a flawed definition, the game is correct
00:09:18 <CaNsA> fair enough
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00:10:38 <Yexo> of course you're free to suggest a different naming for those airports, but that'd be a feature request best discussed first in the forums
00:11:06 <CaNsA> kudos on the new airport menu though, thats sweet
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00:21:20 <ccfreak2k> "international" = "to any nation"
00:21:41 <ccfreak2k> Though the difference between intercontinental and international is arguable I guess.
00:22:04 <ccfreak2k> Could you really have an international flight to antarctica?
00:22:09 <Eddi|zuHause> not "to any nation". only "to at least one other nation"
00:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> typically, the nearest "other continent" is further away than the nearest "other nation"
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00:23:57 <Yexo> ccfreak2k: so "intercity" = "to any city"?
00:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> a flight from frankfurt to paris is international, a flight from frankfurt to new york is intercontinental
00:24:24 <Yexo> almost all intercontinental flights are also international
00:24:31 <Yexo> the reverse is not true
00:24:37 <Yexo> only some international flights are intercontinental
00:24:45 <ccfreak2k> What about in a broader sense: is the UN an international affair, or intercontinental?
00:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you could fly from paris to guadeloupe or something ;)
00:25:01 <Yexo> ccfreak2k: international, because it's an affair between nations
00:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> which is intercontinental, but not international ;)
00:25:20 <Yexo> not between "continents" as there is no government for each continent
00:31:32 <CaNsA> would you say that the USA is a continent?
00:33:25 <Yexo> no
00:33:41 <Yexo> North America is a continent
00:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> CaNsA: what we try to tell you is even at smaller airports you will find international flights, but only on really big ones you will likely find intercontinental ones
00:35:17 <CaNsA> okies
00:35:21 <CaNsA> no worries
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00:37:09 <Maarten> it also depends on the size of the country.... in a country like the US, you can have domestic airports that are bigger in size then say the intercontinental airport of Luxemburg. ;)
00:37:33 <Yexo> does luxemburg have an intercontinental airport?
00:37:39 <Yexo> but your point is valid :p
00:38:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember seeing an airport in luxemburg
00:38:11 <Maarten> Well, it is quite possible that Luxemburg has an airline that services e.g. New York. (I don't know the fact of that)
00:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> they probably have one though, but why should it be intercontinental?
00:38:57 <Eddi|zuHause> intercontinental flights you espect from london, paris or frankfurt
00:40:08 <Maarten> actually LuxAir does not serve outside of Europe..... but regardless, the point is the same. A small nation, not even half the size of a U.S. state, can have a intercontinental airport that is smaller in size then a domestic airport in the U.S.
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00:42:18 <Maarten> E.g, my brother just flew out of Luxor in Egypt - he was evacuated during a holiday trip - and the airport there serves destinations to several European cities..... but is really nothing more then an airstrip in the desert. ;)
00:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> if you consider the individual states in the US and view them as nations in this context, you should get a better picture
00:44:09 <Eddi|zuHause> well, egypt is a borderline development country, of course you'd expect smaller airports there :p
00:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> egypt has about as many inhabitants as germany, but its economic strength is only a fraction
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01:08:29 <R-Blade> sup all
01:08:43 <R-Blade> Hey, anyone here playing openttd right now?
01:09:18 <CaNsA> i am, whats up?
01:09:33 <R-Blade> ah cool I was wondering, what train sets/grfs do you use
01:10:01 <CaNsA> i use standards trains
01:10:03 <R-Blade> Also, do you reach a point where even if half your lines are clogged you find millions in the bank yearly
01:10:07 <R-Blade> ah ok
01:10:17 <R-Blade> I'm a ECS +NARS + US Renewal set man
01:10:22 <CaNsA> cool
01:10:28 <CaNsA> clogged lines?
01:10:38 <CaNsA> i dont have clogged limes
01:10:40 <CaNsA> ,ines*
01:10:40 <R-Blade> Well, one of my problems/fun challenges is say
01:10:58 <R-Blade> I run a LOT of freight/passenger trains on one bit of crowded line
01:11:04 <CaNsA> lol
01:11:06 <R-Blade> which leads to delays sometimes
01:11:15 <R-Blade> I'm working on a bypass route for the freight though
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01:14:57 <CaNsA> this is my most recent save
01:14:59 <CaNsA>
01:15:07 <CaNsA> have a looksee mate
01:15:25 <R-Blade> cool, thanks
01:15:40 <CaNsA> no probs. its a bit messy but it works wel;
01:15:43 <CaNsA> well8
01:15:43 <R-Blade> ah, you are from the united kingdom
01:16:06 <CaNsA> yeppers, liverpool :D
01:16:33 <R-Blade> thats where you have the beatles and the giant steam trains and the titanic
01:17:01 <CaNsA> we did have the titanic until they killed it
01:20:41 <R-Blade> shame about those icebergs
01:21:09 <CaNsA> who'd have guess it eh
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01:26:11 <R-Blade> yep
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04:27:00 <Guest118> \o/
04:27:07 <Guest118> CentOS 5.5
04:27:12 <Guest118> its alive
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06:56:19 <Terkhen> good morning
07:03:18 <z-MaTRiX> hey-ho
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07:40:57 <Terkhen> "this discussion is going in circles." <- :D
07:43:22 <Rubidium> but toroidal or sphericial?
07:58:17 <Terkhen> could you get infinite money by sending your train infinitely far away? :P
08:08:49 <Rubidium> ofcourse you can
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08:15:11 <Terkhen> can you create a network which causes an infinite lookup of the pathfinder freezing the game for everyone?
08:16:07 <Rubidium> nope, the pathfinders have a maximum search depth
08:16:35 <Terkhen> :)
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08:29:36 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r21951 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] reset the carry flag every 4 bytes in action6 when adding more than one variable
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09:21:35 <Wolf01> morning
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09:55:44 <Xaroth_> Yexo: i was kidding...
09:56:22 <Yexo> I know, having some trouble locally ;)
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10:32:05 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21952 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: unify the company clearing code for bankruptcy with the command to remove companies
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12:07:50 <DanMacK> Hey all
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12:44:55 <guyht> Is openttd still available for iPhone and iPad? Can't seem to find it on cydia?
12:45:24 <planetmaker> you should ask the person who wrote or hacked that port
12:45:34 <planetmaker> there never was an official version
12:45:46 <guyht> That would be zottd
12:45:50 <planetmaker> ^^
12:46:12 <planetmaker> And he never provided us with the patches which he needed to write either
12:46:25 <guyht> Fair enough, I realise its neither supported or endorsed by ottd
12:46:28 <planetmaker> And no-one donated an iPad for me so far
12:46:33 <guyht> Haha
12:47:34 <planetmaker> how else should it be tested than with hardware in developer's hands?
12:48:11 <guyht> Maybe it's worth trying to raise the money then
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12:50:29 <guyht> In other news, was trying to get autopilot up and running but it seems that it is no longer maintained and doesn't seem to run with the latest version of Tcl
12:50:46 <planetmaker> autopilot or ap+ ?
12:50:56 <guyht> Ap+ sorry
12:51:07 <guyht> I couldn't find a download link for autopilot
12:51:19 <guyht> But that would be much appreciated
12:52:46 <planetmaker> ap+ is the somewhat maintained version
12:53:13 <planetmaker> might be interesting to you ;-)
12:53:47 <planetmaker> but yes, autopilot / ap+ require certain tcl versions and more important a specific(?) version of expect.
12:53:54 <planetmaker> which is afaik also mentioned in the readme
12:54:02 <guyht> Ah, that could be it
12:54:34 <guyht> I put Tcl 8.5 on which is specified in the readme, but just the latest expect
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12:57:32 <planetmaker> you might consider to write a front-end for JOAN, too ;-)
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12:58:17 <Rubidium> guyht: problem with i* is that our license and Apple's terms of service clash in a way that OpenTTD won't make it onto their app store without them changing their terms of service (or us changing the license)
12:58:56 <planetmaker> psst, he asked not for the official store(s) ;-)
12:59:37 <Rubidium> but officially supporting cydia is asking for people to do illegal things
12:59:44 <guyht> Yes, I realise that is unfortunately the case, but it shouldn't stop people releasing it on cydia where you can release uber gpl
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13:00:37 <guyht> That is not necessarily true, the legality of cydia is very debated
13:00:54 <guyht> But it is certainly a grey area
13:01:27 <Rubidium> I don't know what cydia entails, but jail breaking kinda seems illegal with all the successful prosecution of people writing jail break tools
13:01:49 <Rubidium> and I kinda assume that cydia isn't on Apple's app store
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13:03:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the judgements are fairly unanimous that jailbreaking itself is not illegal
13:04:41 <guyht> Joan looks promising, going to have a look. Shame that ap+ is not working, is there anywhere I can find out which version of expect is required?
13:05:00 <planetmaker> what does the readme say?
13:05:44 <guyht> 5.44 or above
13:06:10 <guyht> Will have another crack at it and see what I an find
13:06:24 <Ammler> guyht: you used ap+ from the hg repo?
13:06:40 <Ammler> then you should try openttd without autopilot
13:06:59 <guyht> No, I downloaded from the admintools page
13:07:15 <guyht> Ah, maybe I got an older version!
13:07:27 <Ammler> yes, that is a snapshot of the hg repo
13:07:56 <guyht> Balls, ok, will check out the latest version and see if it makes a difference. Thanks.
13:08:35 <Ammler> you downloaded tip, you won't get another version :-)
13:09:39 <guyht> There is a known issue with Tcl 8.4 and expect on ubuntu 10.04, suggested solution is to use activetcl, will try that too
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13:10:57 <Rubidium> guyht: even then the zodttd thread about OpenTTD on the i* was primarily whining about the buttons being too small and such; something I'm not really interested in fixing
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13:13:17 <guyht> Yes, if it was an easy solution I would have got it, but it seems that isn't available
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13:22:25 <guyht> This is the error that I get with ap:
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14:04:16 <Belugas> hello
14:04:27 <SmatZ> hello Belugas
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14:05:17 <Belugas> mster SmatZ :D
14:06:09 <SmatZ> :-)
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14:11:39 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: smatz * r21953 /trunk/ (13 files in 5 dirs): -Remove [FS#4456]: the non-uniform stations setting. Support for uniform stations has been broken for over a year
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14:13:11 <Wolfsherz> hello, having issues with foundations in openttd 1.1.0-beta4. at the title-screen they are colored brownish, with vertical lines... ingame they just look like rocks or something like that.
14:13:39 <Rubidium> different climates have different foundations
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14:16:11 <Wolfsherz> oh, thats it... ok, gonna look for a newgrf then. the rocks don't look that good in my opinion. thank you Rubidium.
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14:19:08 <Wolfsherz> another one, in temperate climate only, i get the following error when clicking on industries (ocassionally): "Assertion failed at line 88 of ..\src\strings.cpp: **argt == 0 || **argt == type
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14:20:29 <planetmaker> you certainly play with newgrfs and / or a map where you changed those?
14:20:45 <Rubidium> Wolfsherz: already fixed in the nightlies I think
14:20:57 <Wolfsherz> yes, i play with various newgrfs, is a list required?
14:21:07 <planetmaker> rather a savegame
14:21:19 <planetmaker> and test it in the current nightly
14:21:34 * Rubidium postulates FS#4422
14:22:04 <Wolfsherz> i will try the nightly
14:24:08 <Wolfsherz> nightly fixes the problem
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14:28:40 <Wolfsherz> Rubidium, where is FS#4422 actually? I fail to find it at the bugtracker
14:29:13 <Rubidium> then look for the closed bugs
14:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolfsherz: the default search ignores closed tasks
14:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolfsherz: you can just enter the number at the top
14:30:57 <Wolfsherz> thank you, still new to this all
14:37:36 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21954 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove setting to not show the vehicle speed in the vehicle view
14:38:28 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21955 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: always show the long date in the status bar
14:38:45 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21956 /trunk/src/ (settings_type.h table/settings.h tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Cleanup: always draw the bridge pillars
14:41:40 <Hirundo> 'Cleanup' is an euphemism for 'Remove'?
14:42:46 <Rubidium> yeah
14:42:47 <SmatZ> :)
14:42:56 <Rubidium> or did you use any of those settings with another value?
14:43:35 <Hirundo> Of course not :)
14:46:10 <Hirundo> Some suggestions for further 'cleanup':
14:46:16 <Hirundo> allow goto depot orders
14:46:23 <Hirundo> enable timetabling
14:47:19 <Rubidium> good ideas
14:47:22 <Hirundo> improved loading (!= gradual loading)
14:47:36 <Hirundo> some of that 'adjacent station' stuff
14:48:14 <Terkhen> heh, allow goto depot orders is a setting?
14:48:15 <Hirundo> mammoth trains
14:48:21 <Hirundo> yes :)
14:48:34 <Terkhen> why, what harm can it do?
14:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> not using improved loading has some advantages for really busy stations
14:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> improved loading has the problem that it cannot predict the amount of cargo coming in during the loading period
14:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so for very busy stations it underestimates the amount of trains it can load simultaneously
14:56:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so you get a large stockpile, and lower rating
14:56:49 <R-Blade> ah I see
14:57:07 <R-Blade> the biggest problem I have is trying to run realistic networks pre 1940
14:57:52 <R-Blade> (though GRFs help with this, its still hard having to build a 15 track major urban center with streetcars having to flood the cities
14:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> R-Blade: try the patch that reduces town cargos
14:58:59 <R-Blade> I should post a picture of my northeast corridor eventually, thanks Eddi|zuHause
15:00:17 <R-Blade> also, do any of you use ships?
15:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> occasionally
15:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on the map
15:03:14 <R-Blade> I've noticed that ships only make sense for oil and fish, otherwise they are too slow even with their huge cargoes
15:06:08 * DanMacK likes to start early, so ships are really the only thing going
15:06:36 <DanMacK> makes things *really* difficult
15:07:21 <planetmaker> and then use a Norwegian Fjordland map and you'll virtually have not much choice even further on ;-)
15:07:43 <DanMacK> or set sea level to 90% with mountainous settings :P
15:07:52 <planetmaker> yeah :-)
15:08:06 <planetmaker> I actually like about 50% and mountainous ;-)
15:08:19 <R-Blade> I tend to do american settings so boats are..
15:08:24 <planetmaker> sometimes even 70% - island scenario
15:08:26 <R-Blade> well you can call me OPEC
15:08:44 <R-Blade> also my god the hovercraft is so broken for cities
15:08:55 <planetmaker> how so?
15:09:21 <R-Blade> its fast acceleration + passenger capacity means that it beats most trains till say you get a GG1 equilivant
15:09:51 <planetmaker> and what's broken about that?
15:11:14 <R-Blade> its better than a large chunk of trains, which means it could replace some rail systems
15:11:20 <R-Blade> (for passengers at least)
15:12:34 <DanMacK> Well, they also carry alot less than a train
15:13:09 <planetmaker> yep
15:13:32 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21957 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: gotodepot and timetabling settings are more or less useless; just don't use depot orders or timetabling if you don't want to use it
15:13:40 <planetmaker> so really busy manhatten-style town districts are hard to service properly via boat. But then... by any means of inner-city transport
15:14:01 <R-Blade> I found a nice little grf that works well
15:14:19 <R-Blade> hiroshima trams, fits 450 and 230, as well as some german trams that fit 200-300 people
15:14:29 <R-Blade> work well as intercity subways for hyper crowded places
15:15:08 <R-Blade> (but at 50 mph they are slow)
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15:30:04 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21958 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: join_stations setting; can done by distant join and could be subverted by distant join
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15:38:16 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21959 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Change: replace longbridges with custom maximum bridge and tunnel length setting
15:39:14 <Eddi|zuHause> he's on a spree!
15:40:02 <planetmaker> quite :-)
15:40:48 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21960 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs):
15:40:48 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Change: show the length of vehicles in tiles, instead of half tiles in the depot
15:40:48 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4461]: don't count the number of vehicles but the length of vehicles to (configurably) limit train length
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15:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's the right time now: i'd still like "no loading" and "no unloading" orders simultaneously (for timetabled sidings)
15:43:32 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: which settings do you think the default should be changed of?
15:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not sure, haven't looked at the settings lately
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15:45:43 <planetmaker> speak up now or remain silent forever :-P
15:46:27 <planetmaker> line_reverse_mode could be dropped from GUI, too
15:46:39 <planetmaker> and default to stations and EOL (dunno current default)
15:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: a gui setting for "never turn around at any signals" could be useful
15:47:57 <planetmaker> industry_platform = 1 <-- what did / does that do?
15:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (overriding the three wait time settings)
15:48:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: make a flat area around industries, with a radius of 0 to 4
15:48:47 <planetmaker> oh ha
15:48:47 <SirSquidness> < Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: a gui setting for "never turn around at any signals" could be useful <-- Please oh please tell me that this setting already exists?! :D
15:48:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (before this setting, it was hardcoded to 1, and i found it ugly)
15:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> SirSquidness: yes, as a console setting
15:49:30 <Eddi|zuHause> SirSquidness: try "list_settings pf.wait"
15:49:38 <SirSquidness> Eddi|zuHause: convey unto me these wise words you have
15:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> setting of 255 is disabled
15:51:33 <SirSquidness> Many thanks! <3
15:52:08 <Eddi|zuHause> be sure to do this for all three settings. otherwise you may have unwanted side effects
15:53:02 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: a GUI setting for that is somewhat non-trivial, unless you show the actual numbers
15:53:22 <Rubidium> as we only have a "disabled" string for value 0
15:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i mean a single boolean setting "disable turning around at signals", and at any place that now checks wait==255, you add a check for this setting.
15:54:45 <Rubidium> multiple settings for the same thing leads to inconsistencies
15:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the question is whether it is worth it. and i think it is in this case...
15:55:22 <Rubidium> like there were two settings for not showing signs
15:55:39 <Rubidium> if you disable showing in one, the other still shows that it will be shown but it won't
15:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe remove the meaning of 255 in the wait time, and convert old settings on load?
15:55:50 <Rubidium> making *me* go haywire why it doesn't show the signs
15:56:13 <Rubidium> hmm, that would be a good idea
15:57:33 <Rubidium> but... three settings?
15:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> wait_oneway_signal, wait_twoway_signal and wait_for_pbs_path or so
15:58:59 <Rubidium> then you'd almost come back to the current settings
15:59:08 <Rubidium> though those are quite magic numbers
15:59:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the disable-setting should affect all types.
15:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> so only one disable-setting
16:00:32 <Rubidium> bah... stupid legacy setting
16:07:54 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21961 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp order_gui.cpp): -Remove: limitation that not loading and not unloading is mutual exclusive
16:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> \o/
16:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> at this rate, we're at a 3D-maparray and bendy bridges in no time :p
16:09:50 <Rubidium> I doubt that
16:09:50 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but not at this rate of adding new lines of code ;-)
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16:10:29 <Vikthor> hi
16:10:50 <Eddi|zuHause> # How could your best friend's ex-girlfriend's
16:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> # Younger sister's mate, know before I did?
16:12:56 <planetmaker> that's too many levels of whoever's
16:13:33 <Rubidium> sorry... but the chain breaks at "sister" for me
16:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that's how the song goes ;)
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16:21:42 <DanMacK> hey Lakie
16:21:53 <Lakie> Hi DanMacK
16:25:08 <fjb> Moin everybody.
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16:40:52 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21962 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Feature-ish: GUI setting to disable reversing at signals
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17:28:59 <Eddi|zuHause> lang files could need an update about removed strings?
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17:31:28 <andythenorth> evaning
17:31:43 <supermop> hi
17:31:53 <DanMacK> Hey Andy
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18:29:10 <DanMacK> WB
18:33:19 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21963 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: saying something twice in an error message is not needed
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18:41:54 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21964 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.cfg: -Fix (r21959): regression failed
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18:42:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
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18:47:53 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r21965 /trunk/src/lang/ (58 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:47:53 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:47:53 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: czech - 6 changes by SmatZ
18:47:53 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: dutch - 15 changes by Yexo
18:47:53 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: english_US - 10 changes by Rubidium
18:47:55 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: finnish - 9 changes by jpx_
18:47:55 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by glx
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19:10:23 * andythenorth waves
19:11:01 <andythenorth> me and Mr MacKellar have been drawing more ships
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19:11:21 <andythenorth> the issue of ship liveries has come up again
19:13:07 <supermop> neat!
19:13:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: I can't remember where the ship colours discussion ended
19:13:37 <andythenorth> there's a patch
19:13:56 <frosch123> the infamous livery discussion?
19:13:56 <andythenorth> but some thinking that maybe there is a more 'proper' way to do it?
19:14:46 <Rubidium> groups!
19:15:22 <andythenorth> frick and frack :P
19:16:00 <andythenorth> so can we remove all the different options for train liveries? :P
19:16:37 <frosch123> andythenorth: there was some discussion whether newgrfs should be able to define their own livery categories, esp. as the default liveries for trains make no sense since newrailtypes. there was also an discussion about player-defined categories (which drifts towards consists and general grouping). but the only argument that was actually settles was that it is a lot of work for questionable benefit :)
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19:17:30 * andythenorth proposes removing train liveries :D
19:17:37 <andythenorth> inconsistent with other vehicle types
19:18:46 <Rubidium> andythenorth: start a new game and type "set liveries 0" in the console
19:19:24 <andythenorth> hah
19:19:26 <andythenorth> that's awesome
19:21:00 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21966 /trunk/src/ (engine_type.h table/engines.h train_cmd.cpp): -Change [FS#4462]: [NewGRF] Disable the flipping of train engines/wagons in the depot by default for NewGRFs
19:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that's only visual, is it?
19:26:06 <andythenorth> are we calling 'no' on ship liveries then?
19:26:39 <frosch123> adding a fixed number of default ship liveries only extents the problem imo
19:27:30 <supermop> group liveries? or is that just throwing gasoline on the fire here...
19:27:51 <andythenorth> group liveries might be a solution, but it's very complicated
19:28:14 <andythenorth> should the existing livery system be removed?
19:28:52 <frosch123> that would cause complains unless we add a superset instead :)
19:28:54 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: only visual?
19:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the liveries setting
19:29:42 <Rubidium> oh, yeah... only visual
19:30:05 <andythenorth> what if I complain more about not extending liveries than other players complain about removing them?
19:30:12 <andythenorth> is that like a democracy of complaining?
19:30:15 <andythenorth> :P
19:30:53 <Rubidium> andythenorth: you at least have the freedom to complain
19:30:59 <frosch123> sure, the majority also decided to remove changing newgrfs in game
19:31:31 <Rubidium> andythenorth: as you know... OpenTTD is a dictatorship
19:31:41 <Rubidium> or at least, it has been written so it must be true
19:31:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: the masses can always enforce changes, but they cannot control in which direction :)
19:33:26 * andythenorth doesn't see why the train nerds are allowed to have a livery system if others aren't
19:33:37 <andythenorth> what did the train nerds ever do for us?
19:33:38 <andythenorth> :P
19:34:20 <frosch123> yeah, what did the whales and trees ever do for us
19:35:47 <Rubidium> andythenorth: what different ship types does OpenTTD have; how are they differentiated?
19:35:59 <Rubidium> with trains that distinction *was* quite easy
19:36:01 <andythenorth> I don't know any more :P
19:36:09 <andythenorth> I set liveries 0 and can't check :D
19:36:22 <frosch123> Rubidium: the fs task added a property to distinguish steam, diesel and sail
19:36:45 <Rubidium> but I want a nuklear wessel
19:36:55 <andythenorth> are the train liveries original TTD ?
19:37:00 <frosch123> yup, that's why a fixed selection is bad
19:37:07 <andythenorth> I thought they'd been added somewhere in the world of TTDP
19:37:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: no
19:37:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, they all had the same livery
19:38:16 <frosch123> but as i said before, current liveries make no sense since new railtypes, and automatically adding liveries for each available railtype makes no sense either :)
19:38:30 <andythenorth> remove them :)
19:39:03 <Terkhen> livery classes :)
19:39:19 <Yexo> new vehicle property "livery class" that can be freely set. Vehicles with the same value will get the same colors. User can set colors for every livery class defined by any newgrf
19:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm all for having groups define livery...
19:39:37 <Yexo> but then that requires an addition to all newgrfs
19:40:12 <andythenorth> newgrfs define arbitrary properties for vehicles....
19:40:15 <andythenorth> similar to action 14
19:40:41 <andythenorth> 'arbitrary' may be the wrong word :P
19:41:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would groups define livery?
19:41:53 <Rubidium> all vehicles in this group have livery X
19:41:57 <Rubidium> and then sub groups
19:42:05 <Rubidium> which override the livery of the parent group
19:42:15 <andythenorth> heh
19:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> same selection window as now, but for each group individually
19:42:25 <andythenorth> the groups discussion again :D
19:42:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: how many groups can a vehicle be in (on your idea)
19:42:44 <andythenorth> ?
19:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> mainly because i want to have different tram/bus liveries in each city
19:43:19 <Alberth> as many as you have groups
19:43:21 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I wouldn't say "the same", I'd leave it to: train engine, pax wagon, freight wagon, road vehicle, ship, aircraft
19:43:36 * andythenorth wonders about the 'fun'
19:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that'd probably suffice.
19:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> bus/truck separated
19:43:58 <andythenorth> nearly all of the discussions about groups sound like 'work' to me
19:44:07 <andythenorth> it's all about organising and classifying
19:44:07 <Yexo> one vehicle in multiple groups and a livery per group is going to be a mess
19:44:14 <Yexo> which group takes priority wrt liveries?
19:44:39 <andythenorth> going to the company menu and choosing a few livery settings is 'fun'
19:44:55 <andythenorth> spending twenty minutes organising groups is 'work'
19:45:01 * andythenorth wonders
19:45:10 <andythenorth> was the original reason for groups to remove 'work' ?
19:45:27 <Yexo> autoreplace per group?
19:45:34 <andythenorth> exactly
19:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i once suggested "group classes". like a vehicle may only be in one "consist"-class group, and one "livery"-class group, but in many "user"-class or "station"/"automatic"-class groups
19:45:44 <andythenorth> autoreplace by group removes a boring task
19:46:05 <andythenorth> enforcing making groups for everything introduces a boring task
19:46:24 <Alberth> 'group' as basic building block is the wrong starting point imho
19:46:35 <Rubidium> setting liveries is a boring task in any case
19:46:44 <andythenorth> I like it :D
19:46:48 <andythenorth> but I'm not normal
19:47:00 <Eddi|zuHause> building a rail network is a boring task. but people do it anyway.
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19:47:12 <Alberth> Rubidium: it fulfils the goal of the game: waste time :)
19:47:30 <andythenorth> waste time in a pleasing way :)
19:47:44 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: nah, that is the boring part. Keeping it working while its load increases is the fun part
19:47:54 <andythenorth> about once a week I have to group all the lego bits
19:47:56 <andythenorth> it's very dull
19:48:01 <andythenorth> but if I don't, it's worse
19:48:03 <Rubidium> andythenorth: the point is that vehicles that share an order will (implicitly) be in a group
19:48:18 <Rubidium> now they are as well, it's just *much* more hidden
19:48:33 <andythenorth> there's even a GUI mockup for this somewhere...
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19:48:42 <andythenorth> if 'livery' was a per-vehicle property
19:48:49 <andythenorth> then setting it could be a one-time action
19:48:56 * andythenorth looks
19:49:20 <Rubidium> making the "orders" more visible and searchable should make it easier to manage vehicles in the long run
19:50:04 <andythenorth> I can't find the image I made
19:50:17 <Yexo> are the bridges in toyland supposed to look purple?
19:50:27 <andythenorth> but if applying a livery to a group was same as using 'go to depot' or 'send for servicing' etc...
19:50:39 <andythenorth> and just set the property on each vehicle in the group
19:50:47 <andythenorth> then crazy cascading rules aren't needed
19:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't see how re-selecting the livery for every vehicle i buy [unless i clone, which is not always] makes the task easier
19:51:41 <Yexo> hmm, only happens with original ttd graphics, not with opengfx
19:51:45 <Yexo> so I'll guess it's intended
19:51:47 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: good point
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19:52:06 <andythenorth> why try and make groups do everything?
19:52:09 <andythenorth> it smells wrong
19:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just another annoying step more in the buing process, after refitting and timetabling
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19:53:03 <andythenorth> ach
19:53:39 <andythenorth> we established a solution before: cascading livery rules for groups with numeric weightings
19:53:43 <Rubidium> andythenorth: what method would you propose to make liveries only apply to a subset of the vehicles?
19:53:59 <Rubidium> without the use of groups that is
19:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> groups should work like selections. i give it a few criteria and lists all vehicles that match. then i want to perform orders on all these vehicles
19:54:30 <andythenorth> but if you want those changes to be maintained need magic
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19:54:52 <andythenorth> Rubidium: something like current
19:54:59 <andythenorth> just use the cargo type or propulsion type
19:55:04 <andythenorth> and keep the current livery menu
19:55:15 * Eddi|zuHause now understands what they taught in software engineering when they said "the requirements are not always clear, and often contradicting"
19:55:54 * andythenorth worries this:
19:56:05 <andythenorth> 'groups' are the proposed solution to a lot of problems
19:56:13 <andythenorth> but the only way to make them do all the things desired
19:56:22 <andythenorth> is to introduce a system of cascading rules and weightings
19:56:35 <andythenorth> which the player will need to figure out and maintain
19:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see this working...
19:56:45 <andythenorth> so now, instead of some annoying tasks with vehicles
19:56:53 <andythenorth> I have a magic system to do the annoying tasks for me
19:57:04 <andythenorth> but I have to maintain an annoying list of magic potion rules
19:57:22 <andythenorth> which start to interact horribly
19:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "cascading", just enforce the "uniqueness" of certain properties.
19:57:25 <andythenorth> :o
19:57:28 * andythenorth remembers something
19:57:37 <andythenorth> seen disney's sorcerer's apprentice?
19:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. if you (dynamically or manually) create a group, and give it an autoreplace order, remove all vehicles from previous autoreplace groups they were in
19:57:55 <Rubidium> so... I guess we ought to just trash liveries all together
19:58:16 * andythenorth has auto-magical html things before
19:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the sorcerer's apprentice is a poem by Goethe. every german must learn it in school
19:58:20 <Rubidium> oh, and trash groups as those are just troublesome to set up
19:58:59 <andythenorth> he
19:59:10 <andythenorth> currently they are pretty good
20:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the most pressing thing about groups that i am currently missing is: "take all ungrouped vehicles, and put them in a group with their shared orders. create new groups if not existing"
20:01:12 <andythenorth> interesting
20:01:31 <andythenorth> it's another way of saying 'routes are a type of group'
20:02:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it's already partly implemented by the selection "add shared order vehicles to this group"
20:02:15 <andythenorth> Rubidium: do you ever set any livery?
20:02:58 <Rubidium> in what kind of setting? Testing stuff or actually gameplay?
20:03:04 <andythenorth> gameplay ;)
20:03:16 <Rubidium> then no; can't be bothered
20:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i set them for trams/busses
20:03:37 <Rubidium> well, sometimes the company colour is annoying so I change that... but that's hardly changing liveries
20:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause> rail is unnessesary because dbset doesn't have company colours
20:03:58 * andythenorth does ponder
20:04:19 <andythenorth> is it possible to store the cc on a per-vehicle basis?
20:04:23 <Rubidium> but then I have rarely played for the gameplay
20:07:44 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21967 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Prepare: for 1.1.0-beta5
20:11:16 <CIA-11> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21968 /tags/1.1.0-beta5/: -Release: 1.1.0-beta5
20:12:00 <Eddi|zuHause> a release before midnight? :p
20:13:40 <Prof_Frink> r22k before midnight?
20:13:47 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: nah, rather 22 hours after midnight
20:15:21 * andythenorth obsessively tries to find a valid way to classify ships for livery purposes :D
20:15:44 * andythenorth should do draw FIRS instead
20:17:16 <andythenorth> so the train livery types are considered 'broken' following introduction of railtypes?
20:17:42 <Prof_Frink> No. Draw OAKS.
20:19:22 <DanMacK> hah hah
20:21:07 <andythenorth> Oaks Acronym Killer Set
20:22:09 <Katje> is there anyway to control which station takes the produce from an industry ?
20:22:23 <Katje> say I have two stations either side of a saw mill
20:22:31 <Katje> but I only want the goods to goto one of them
20:24:43 <glx> just send the right train at the right place
20:24:46 <andythenorth> serve that one more
20:24:57 <andythenorth> more goods go to the one with higher station rating
20:27:45 <Katje> ok
20:29:00 <peter1138> andythenorth, not 'broken' just 'didn't consider it'
20:29:27 <andythenorth> hmm hmm
20:29:29 <andythenorth> :)
20:29:40 * andythenorth doesn't know what to do about ships :(
20:29:48 <andythenorth> can it be so hard? It's just pixels
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20:34:21 <andythenorth> hah
20:34:40 <andythenorth> we'll just draw older ships with black hulls. No CC (or minimal)
20:34:46 * andythenorth takes the easy way out :D
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20:44:20 <z-MaTRiX> hey-ho
20:49:12 <supermop> Would it be weird to go to my boss's DJ set tonight?
20:49:53 <andythenorth> nah
20:51:35 <supermop> it is his first one in a really long time, and he is sort of nervous
20:51:55 <supermop> but i don't usually go out to see DJs in the city
21:06:13 * andythenorth ponders an evil lime green colour for lime works :D
21:07:30 <supermop> limeade works?
21:07:50 <Terkhen> ectoplasm wells?
21:07:58 <andythenorth> maybe in toyland version :P
21:08:06 * andythenorth ponders
21:08:13 <andythenorth> replace toyland with 'haloween' climate?
21:08:18 <supermop> actually
21:08:52 <supermop> a special toyland or whimsy FIRS economy would be an interesting thought experiment
21:16:23 <DanMacK> TOYS?
21:17:09 <supermop> heh
21:17:13 <supermop> toy supplies
21:18:23 <Terkhen> andythenorth: will you include a "stuff" economy?
21:18:39 <andythenorth> if you code it :P
21:18:41 <andythenorth> red stuff
21:18:43 <andythenorth> blue stuff
21:18:46 <andythenorth> green stuff
21:18:49 <Terkhen> I can do the specs for you
21:18:53 <Terkhen> cargos: stuff
21:19:08 <Terkhen> industries: "place where they make stuff"
21:19:12 <Terkhen> that's all :)
21:19:58 <supermop> would still be fun
21:23:14 <DanMacK> Actually, could do it as "Stuff" and "Things"
21:23:26 <DanMacK> You need stuff to make things
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21:24:12 <Terkhen> sounds overcomplicated :P
21:24:15 <DanMacK> lol
21:24:34 <DanMacK> Train sets ahve 2 cars... stuff hopper and things van :P
21:24:40 <Terkhen> :D
21:24:53 <Rubidium> yeah, and then use the things to make more stuff
21:25:18 <Rubidium> preferably more output than input ;)
21:25:37 <Alberth> trains have to pull things and push stuff
21:28:03 <andythenorth> can I set livery differently for stuff and things?
21:28:04 <andythenorth> :P
21:28:16 <andythenorth> it would surely make solving groups easier?
21:35:07 <DJNekkid> how CPU expensive is VarAction2 Variable 4A for vehicles? (check railtype)
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21:38:24 <planetmaker> good evening
21:38:49 <DanMacK> Hey PM
21:39:55 <andythenorth> hi planetmaker
21:40:00 <andythenorth> what larks :D
21:41:53 <michi_cc> DJNekkid: not very much
21:42:50 <DJNekkid> michi_cc: any thoughts about that vs B4 (speed) ?
21:43:57 <DJNekkid> as I probably need both
21:44:07 <DJNekkid> if B4 > 0, check for 4A
21:44:45 <michi_cc> B4 is less expensive, but both are still very low complexity
21:45:03 <DJNekkid> or i could if B4 = <number> <do something>, if <another number>< do something else> <default if neither>
21:45:22 <michi_cc> Do you want to use that every tick or only for CB36 or so?
21:45:40 <DJNekkid> well, its about adjusting running costs if on certain tracks
21:45:55 <DJNekkid> so that a TGV (for example) wont get 'high' costs if it runs on 'slow' tracks
21:46:09 <DJNekkid> as it dont need to utilize all of its 12000hp to overcome air drag and such
21:46:24 <planetmaker> then let it depend on actual speed
21:46:30 <planetmaker> you can easily test that
21:46:34 <DJNekkid> but the problem is
21:46:42 <DJNekkid> one can adjust the speed on the tracks :)
21:46:48 <planetmaker> yes?
21:46:52 <DJNekkid> reqeusted by you iirc
21:46:57 <DJNekkid> :P
21:47:25 <planetmaker> Maybe. But why depend the running cost on the track type and not on the actual speed?
21:47:44 <DJNekkid> because when a train accelerate it usually use all of its available power (i would assume)
21:47:47 <planetmaker> at least if your argument is air drag - which is speed
21:47:52 <Yexo> making the running cost depend on the track type will fail when someone uses a railtype you don't know about that is still compatible
21:48:09 <michi_cc> No idea how you implement running costs internally, but CB36 is called when the railtype changes to get new power/TE etc, so maybe you can store some stuff during that.
21:48:21 <Yexo> you can't for vehicles
21:48:27 <DJNekkid> michi_cc: i know _how_ to do it, and that is via CB36
21:48:39 <DJNekkid> but i feels that the 2cc trainset is already somewhat cpu expensive as it is
21:49:02 <DJNekkid> Yexo: the plan were to skip that 'procedure' if NuTracks isnt loaded
21:49:30 <michi_cc> Well, CB36 isn't called often enough to that 4A would have any noticable effect for that.
21:49:55 <DJNekkid> oki, then I'll go for the combi-solution
21:50:25 <DJNekkid> planetmaker: the argument isnt air drag as such,
21:50:34 <planetmaker> it was yours ;-)
21:50:40 <planetmaker> And I haven't seen another
21:50:54 <michi_cc> You could use bit 9 if 4A at least to reduce running cost if not powered and only dragged in a consist even if you don't know the actual railtype.
21:50:55 <DJNekkid> but a 12000hp 300kmh topspeed train wont use (i would assume) all of its power when driveing 125kmh
21:51:15 <planetmaker> DJNekkid: yes. And that is directly checked by the speed
21:51:19 <Rubidium> it could while accelerating
21:51:27 <DJNekkid> Rubidium: my point exactly
21:51:42 <DJNekkid> and why i dont think i should do: if between <this> and <that>
21:51:47 <Rubidium> but neither would it use all its power when at 300 km/h
21:52:11 <planetmaker> ok, then an overloaded train at 120km/h on high-speed tracks is more expensive to run than on a side line?
21:52:14 <DJNekkid> but in the 'game reality' i think we could assume so
21:52:34 <planetmaker> sounds... quite fishy
21:52:51 <michi_cc> 4A is defined as a DWORD so there would be enough space to also return the max speed of the tracks, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort only for 2ccset running costs.
21:53:22 <DJNekkid> Here is the idea anyway:
21:53:48 <DJNekkid> planetmaker: i think that a TGV would need QUITE ALOT of wagons to go at 120kmh:P
21:54:26 <DJNekkid> The basis of the idea is the game me and ChillCore is currently playing
21:54:38 <DJNekkid> where i had a very high speed mainline between some cities
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21:54:47 <DJNekkid> but one that had a 180kmh sideline grew quite abit
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21:54:59 <DJNekkid> and i felt that it should have its own intercity trains
21:55:03 <planetmaker> still I maintain that depending on track type is not really sensible
21:55:04 <DJNekkid> and thus TGV's
21:55:22 <planetmaker> why would the kirby paul be more expensive to run on a hst than on the 80km/h track?
21:55:29 <DJNekkid> it wont
21:55:45 <DJNekkid> its only 'high' vs 'lower'
21:55:50 <DJNekkid> 'higher' vs 'lower'
21:57:21 <Rubidium> there should be like 3 components to the running cost: time based running cost (personel), distance based (wear), speed based (power consumption)
21:58:01 <Rubidium> though I guess for ease you could scrap the distance based component
21:58:20 <DJNekkid> but if i base the decision on the top speed of an actual track it will break at the minute you change the low speed (125kmh) tracks max speed to more or less then 125
21:58:37 <DJNekkid> and thus would the current track type be smarter
21:58:56 <DJNekkid> Rubidium: i also count the 'wear' as 'speed'
21:59:14 <DJNekkid> as 300kmh operations would wear down stuff more then i.e. 125kmh
21:59:33 <Alberth> just keep it fixed, maintenance of high-tech trains is high no matter how you use them. In fact, by lowering costs you kill the idea that you need to get an engine matching your tracks
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22:00:26 <Rubidium> Alberth: but then the "smart" thing to do is just fill the map with high speed track as it doesn't matter anyway
22:00:40 <DJNekkid> that is also why top speed is a quite big part of the running cost in the 2cc set
22:00:49 <DJNekkid> with power as the 2nd main component
22:01:08 <Alberth> and with high-speed trains, as running them at slower tracks is just as cheap as a slower engine
22:01:12 <Rubidium> but giving the user a (small) choice to let the high speed train, at reduced cost, run at the same speed as the normal traffic on a relatively small side line sounds "good"
22:01:58 <DJNekkid> Alberth: it might be, but when 1 tile of 'unlimited' speed track cose 10k , and 1 tile of 180kmh track cost 1k (iirc)
22:04:18 <DJNekkid> Rubidium: that was also my thought :)
22:04:29 <DJNekkid> and IRL that happens quite often
22:05:26 <DJNekkid> TGV's and similars use the 'old' tracks from abit outside a city and into the station, and then on separate high speed tracks inbetween them
22:13:51 <DJNekkid> get his patchpack and the latest 2cc-set nightly and come and see what i mean :P
22:14:14 <DJNekkid> (r734)
22:15:15 <Alberth> are default industries forced to be available?
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22:18:35 <andythenorth> good night
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22:36:20 <dihedral> Rubidium, regarding fs4464 - would it make sense to make use of the move handling?
22:37:42 <dihedral> and move the client to spectators locally after the bankruptcy handling
22:39:02 <Rubidium> if you can ensure that the move command gets to the clients on time
22:39:06 <Rubidium> but you can't
22:39:52 <dihedral> i thought this assert was only the case when the local company went bankrupt
22:40:13 <Rubidium> yes
22:40:27 <Rubidium> but local to the "client"
22:40:29 <Terkhen> good night
22:40:41 <Rubidium> night Terkhen
22:41:01 <dihedral> yes, so the move does not have to go by all other servers because the other clients handle the bankruptcy correctly already
22:41:09 <dihedral> or am i confusing something (yet again)
22:41:26 <dihedral> s/servers/clients/
22:41:42 <Rubidium> oh, but it uses the client-to-spectator move methodology
22:42:00 <Rubidium> problem is that it happens at a moment where that move won't work at all
22:42:15 <dihedral> move beforehand? :-P
22:42:43 <Rubidium> that would mean before the state game loop
22:42:51 <Rubidium> which is kinda troublesome
22:43:03 <Rubidium> as at that moment we don't know the next quarter is started
22:43:13 <Rubidium> and as such we don't know that the company could be bankrupt
22:43:38 <dihedral> or we delay the bankruptcy with a type of 'callback' till after the move
22:43:50 <dihedral> and instead trigger the move
22:44:05 <Rubidium> okay...
22:44:11 <dihedral> the move will, after performed, correctly handle the bankruptcy
22:44:21 <Rubidium> problem: can't change local company in StateGameLoop
22:44:27 <dihedral> ah
22:44:36 <Rubidium> problem: must do bankruptcy in StateGameLoop
22:44:59 <Rubidium> solution: uhm...
22:45:23 <dihedral> yes :-P
22:45:53 <dihedral> why does bankruptcy have to be handled in StateGameLoop? and not during a time where local company can be changed?
22:46:30 <Rubidium> because the date is changed in the StateGameLoop
22:46:37 <dihedral> would it not suffice to set a flag
22:46:40 <Rubidium> which triggers all the daily/monrthly/yearly stuff
22:46:49 <Rubidium> which triggers the bankruptcy check
22:47:14 <Rubidium> and doing that check almost 7000 times more than needed is somewhat a problem
22:47:47 <Rubidium> *especially* as the bankruptcy check updates a counter
22:47:49 <dihedral> if it's just a multiplayer issue, let the server send out a bankruptcy packet :-P
22:48:29 <Rubidium> if that packet arrives too late the client tries to execute a command as non-existant local user and: boom!
22:48:49 <dihedral> which is the same with the move command
22:49:14 <dihedral> and the move probably happens more often than the bankruptcy
22:49:56 <dihedral> and this could still be handled server side, adding a check to incomming packets
22:50:47 <Rubidium> how can locally dereferencing an invalid company = NULL pointer be checked server side?
22:50:49 <dihedral> client status which gets set, a bankruptcy packet from server to clients and a corresponding ack packet to the server from the affected clients to set their client status back again
22:51:04 <Rubidium> the move command is not handled in the StateGameLoop, thus it goes alright
22:51:10 <dihedral> ah
22:51:13 <dihedral> :-P
22:51:27 <Rubidium> sending a bankruptcy packet from the server gives you all kinds of trouble w.r.t. syncing
22:51:35 <Rubidium> unless, ofcourse, you send the actual command
22:51:51 <Rubidium> but that seems to be complicating stuff quite a lot
22:51:52 <Yexo> TrueBrain: returns 502 bad gateway
22:52:01 <dihedral> would have to be a command, to keep it in sync with everything else, yes
22:52:21 <Yexo> it's not used a lot, but it'd be nice to keep it running until all projects are moved
22:57:36 <Rubidium> dihedral: doing the command would probably be quite easy... but...
22:57:44 <Rubidium> only the server may execute it
22:57:59 <Rubidium> and it might be somewhat troublesome for single player
22:58:13 <Rubidium> as it'd be executing a command in the state game loop
22:58:35 <Rubidium> though... hmm... in SP you can't go bankrupt
22:58:46 <Rubidium> so the command is never called with SetLocalCompany
22:59:21 <dihedral> though it might be interesting to fix it in a way that could allow bankruptcy in sp too
22:59:39 <dihedral> as 'loosing' a game also belongs to the gameplay
23:00:30 <dihedral> and personally i'd probably prefere a solution without a docommand :-P
23:00:48 <dihedral> but it sounds to be very hard to find exactly that
23:01:08 <Rubidium> well, bankruptcy uses a DoCommand already, just not a DoCommandP
23:05:26 <dihedral> al
23:05:30 <dihedral> *ah
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23:12:25 <dihedral> what if the brankruptcy progress just took a little longer? i.e. set a bankrupt flag, if set do not allow the company to send further commands, and process the bankruptcy once it's ok to change local company
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23:13:14 <dihedral> i think i just triggered my own dja-vu
23:13:18 <dihedral> :-(
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23:18:50 <Rubidium> oh lovely..
23:18:59 <Rubidium> it also fails with a DoCommandP
23:19:40 <Rubidium> which is bad as well
23:19:55 <thomas001> hi, i am running 1.1.0-beta5. there seems to be an audio mixing bug on windows: the music volume affects the sound volume as it also scales the sound volume, so sound is always quiter than music. especially when you set music volume to zero there is also no sound.
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23:20:48 <Rubidium> thomas001: then Windows is mapping both to the same thing and OpenTTD can't do much about that
23:21:59 <thomas001> Rubidium, but i can have no sound, but music
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23:22:38 <thomas001> it feels like actual music volume = (set music volume); actual sound volume = (set music volume)*(set sound volume)
23:23:29 <Rubidium> then I'd guess the midi playback device is setting the global volume and the wav playback device is setting only the wav volume
23:24:12 <thomas001> that whould be an explanation, can openttd do sth about this?
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23:25:54 <Rubidium> not that I'm aware; you could try "the other" midi playback, but I don't know which of the two it is and which other bugs that might trigger
23:26:18 <thomas001> that do you mean by "the other"?
23:26:45 <Rubidium> OpenTTD supports two APIs for midi playback
23:26:59 <Rubidium> you're now using one, you might have luck with "the other"
23:28:36 <thomas001> how to switch?
23:29:07 <Rubidium> there's a command line switch/setting for it
23:29:17 <thomas001> thx
23:29:26 <dihedral> openttd.exe /?
23:29:39 <dihedral> or is it still --help
23:30:27 <thomas001> hmm it lists only "win32" as available music driver
23:30:31 <thomas001> --help worked
23:31:39 <Rubidium> 64 bits OpenTTD/Windows?
23:31:46 <thomas001> yes
23:31:52 <planetmaker> good night
23:31:58 <dihedral> good night planetmaker
23:31:59 <thomas001> gn8 planetmaker
23:32:15 <Rubidium> thomas001: ah, then Windows doesn't have "the other one"
23:32:21 <dihedral> :-D
23:32:23 <thomas001> :D
23:32:24 <Rubidium> unless you switch to the 32 bits binary
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23:33:10 <thomas001> ok so basically its a flaw in windows' midi implementation and i am stuck with it until i switch to 32bit?
23:33:23 <thomas001> (32bit openttd)
23:33:42 <dihedral> what forces bankruptcy to be processed in that StateGameLoop and not at a time where local company may be changed?
23:36:25 <Rubidium> I already told you that...
23:36:39 <dihedral> snap! sorry about that
23:36:42 <Rubidium> when would *you* trigger a quarterly bankruptcy check?
23:37:16 <Rubidium> maybe at like the moment you get into a quarter?
23:39:01 <dihedral> trigger the check != processing
23:39:37 <Rubidium> then you need to maintain whether tou need to process it
23:39:40 <z-MaTRiX> hi
23:39:54 <z-MaTRiX> found another target linux system
23:39:59 <dihedral> Rubidium, yes, but is that not easier?
23:39:59 <Rubidium> seems a "bad" approach to me
23:40:23 <dihedral> hello, z-MaTRiX
23:40:23 <Rubidium> dihedral: DoCommandP does that already
23:40:28 <dihedral> what have you found, z-MaTRiX
23:41:04 <z-MaTRiX>
23:41:21 <z-MaTRiX> based on rhel
23:41:29 <z-MaTRiX> put together by Fermilab, CERN
23:42:36 <dihedral> yes, i saw what it was based on :-P
23:42:43 <z-MaTRiX> seems like more suitable to me than centos
23:43:03 <dihedral> seems to me like it'd make no difference
23:43:06 <z-MaTRiX> (i am testing it right now)
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23:44:10 <dihedral> Rubidium, what problem did the DoCommandP then have?
23:44:12 <z-MaTRiX> you mean the core is basicalla the same?
23:44:19 <z-MaTRiX> *basically
23:44:27 <dihedral> you said it still shoed the same issue?
23:44:30 <dihedral> how come then?
23:45:13 <dihedral> z-MaTRiX, grml is another linux distribution :-P
23:45:21 <z-MaTRiX> ;/
23:45:22 <z-MaTRiX> yes
23:45:41 <z-MaTRiX> i have a grml livecd and was unable to boot
23:46:11 <dihedral> anyway - i shall get my rest
23:46:14 <dihedral> have a good night
23:46:17 <z-MaTRiX> this is probably because i only have magical hardware
23:46:25 <z-MaTRiX> bb
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