IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-12-10
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00:20:02 <Chrill> any bored soul wanna play a casual game of OpenTTD? some basic NewGRFs, no real difficulty level, just casual multiplaying?
00:20:25 <Chrill> (this bored soul must be able to host the game, I don't think I can set that up)
00:21:18 <Chrill> but in an hour, dinner will soon be starting to get made
00:21:38 <supermop> hmm work was supposed to end 20 minutes ago
00:22:01 <supermop> neither of us are doing anything
00:22:20 <Chrill> oh my, this is philosophical
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00:58:34 <supermop> so, a simple game of ottd?
00:58:57 <FauxFaux> People here don't actually play openttd.
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02:28:29 <SmatZ> * The IP address you are sending from has been temporarily rate limited due to lack of whitelisting, unexpected changes in volume, or poor IP reputation.
02:28:47 <SmatZ> I sent 1 (one!) email from that IP
02:32:38 <SmatZ> the fscking unusable relay message
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02:37:27 * SmatZ is going to enjoy his bed after this long day
04:35:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
05:42:29 <Rubidium> SmatZ: that's likely just some greylisting happening
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06:48:23 <polymorphZ> i think i found a bug in openttd 1.0.5 multiplayer
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06:49:47 <polymorphZ> clicked on a station of another company, next a city and airport, and trains earn 300k, waiting: nothing, local rating: blank
06:52:50 <polymorphZ> currently running game, LvM-1 server, position 59x374x3
06:54:52 <planetmaker> polymorphZ: and where's to problem with that?
06:55:01 <planetmaker> do you know the train's orders?
06:55:30 <polymorphZ> the train earnes money, and takes passengers
06:55:46 <polymorphZ> also there is an airsport nearby
06:56:59 <polymorphZ> would think he built an airport then joined the station, but if i do that after clicking station, airport name comes up
06:58:28 <planetmaker> so it's two stations it seems?
07:00:50 <polymorphZ> and trains does not load anything from that station
07:01:07 <polymorphZ> though its right next to the buildings
07:01:38 <polymorphZ> company is outstanding, no exxclusive rights
07:03:07 <polymorphZ> train orders are full load at the other far end
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09:36:52 <palnts> Hi, is OpenTTD in need of more programmers?
09:40:42 <Noldo> now that's a nice opening question
09:42:06 <Noldo> just dive in and start making patches about things that you are interested in and in time if your work is good you might even get commit access
09:43:14 <__ln__> In the unlikely situation that your patches do what the main developers like.
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09:44:43 <planetmaker> palnts: patches for the open bugs are also always welcome
09:46:24 <palnts> It takes quite some time getting to know the design of the system and I was not sure if this project was still going strong.
09:47:39 <planetmaker> The first thing I'd do was risk a look at the commit log...
09:50:17 <planetmaker> have you played the game yet, palnts ?
09:52:44 <palnts> Yes, I played the original and some time ago I found this project.
09:53:59 <palnts> I played it a lot, I just never considered I could actually work on it too.
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09:55:47 <palnts> It must be a nightmare coordinating projects like this.
09:55:55 <palnts> My experience is with small groups only.
09:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not that bad. most patches have one author, and they need only be pointed in the right direction sometimes
09:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> key point here is to not accept patches prematurely
09:59:47 <planetmaker> coordination works just fine here from my experience.
10:07:06 <palnts> Nice. Thanks for the info guys, I'm going to read/work myself into it and perhaps we'll speak again.
10:08:53 * planetmaker coordinates a hearily 'hello' in the direction of Alberth
10:09:25 <Alberth> planetmaker: seems to be working :D
10:10:30 * Alberth ponders whether to join the discussion with MagicBuzz
10:11:35 * planetmaker considered the 'discussion' over - for my part at least. And unless there'll be something really new
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10:12:10 <planetmaker> I was too lazy to dig up older instances of the very same topic ;-)
10:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> * planetmaker coordinates a hearily 'hello' in the direction of Alberth <-- i believe the word is "audible" :p
10:13:56 <Wolf01> I hope to be more lucky today with the dsl :(
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10:14:47 <Wolf01> time to test the portable lomo tool
10:16:09 <Wolf01> zomg... empty box... must find the cd
10:16:45 <Wolf01> I have another one, but that's a relic :D
10:17:34 <Wolf01> found it, 3rd page of the 500cd box ;)
10:19:08 <Wolf01> does anybody knows about minecraft?
10:23:16 <Wolf01> one of my devs is trying to rebuild the map system (with a little help of the original code, he decompilate the java objects), I think it could be applicable on OTTD to have infinite maps too
10:23:59 <peter1138> i already implemented infinite maps in my minecraft (classic) server (didn't work too well with the classic client though)
10:24:05 <peter1138> so... infinite maps are not hard
10:24:12 <peter1138> but the way openttd uses the map is different
10:25:08 <peter1138> openttd generally needs all the map available to do processing, like updating tiles, growing towns, trees, etc...
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10:25:52 <peter1138> also in minecraft, the client only has a small area of map available
10:26:05 <peter1138> because it doesn't need to do any processing on it
10:26:11 <peter1138> which is not how openttd works
10:26:17 <Wolf01> in fact when in minecraft you exit the current map chunk, things become freezed (trees and wheat won't grow)
10:26:48 <peter1138> so basically for openttd, you'd have to pretty much rewrite how everything works
10:27:01 <peter1138> (or have all of the infinite map loaded at once, which is impractical)
10:27:10 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, no. The word is "heartily"
10:27:36 <peter1138> so anyone else running an smp server?
10:27:37 <planetmaker> with a completely different intended meaning than "audible" ;-)
10:27:47 <peter1138> and has anyone else written their own classic server, hehe
10:27:59 <peter1138> (anyone else here, obviously)
10:28:35 <Wolf01> my friend is crawling around the client code to understand how it works to create a new server
10:28:44 <peter1138> Wolf01, classic is easy
10:28:59 <Wolf01> eh, but we are using alpha :P
10:29:02 <peter1138> alpha is tricky, because 1) the protocol keeps changing 2) there is client-side prediction
10:29:29 <peter1138> every time notch implements a new feature... you've gotta do the same, heh
10:30:17 <Wolf01> but I think we will end up by making the same map system and then continue developing a game like monster hunter
10:31:23 <Xaroth_> peter1138: i run a SMP yeh
10:31:31 <peter1138> anyway, i think an openttd-like game with infinite maps is possible, but i don't know if it's worth it to use much of openttd
10:32:04 <peter1138> Wolf01, different client, sort of thing?
10:32:23 <peter1138> damn notch for making 720000 sales
10:34:54 <peter1138> terrain is easy, heh
10:35:39 <Wolf01> he's trying to understand how the terrain generator works, natural caves are really cool
10:35:49 <peter1138> problem in an openttd type game, if you have the terrain server-side, then you need to start sending tile updates when things change
10:36:00 <peter1138> notch's generator is pretty cool. has some annoying bugs though
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10:36:15 <Wolf01> yeah, I read about them in the wiki
10:36:18 <peter1138> gosh, windows binary? how unuseful :p
10:36:44 <peter1138> you even stole the minecraft texture file :s
10:36:47 <Wolf01> he have the linux version too, but I have windows here, so this is what he sent me
10:37:54 <Wolf01> we should make smooth maps, not cubic ones
10:38:09 <Wolf01> all based on cubes, but with smooth angles
10:38:57 <peter1138> my infinite-map system for classic was actually infinite too
10:39:05 <peter1138> not limited to 128 blocks vertically
10:40:11 <peter1138> i never made it work though, hehe
10:40:25 <peter1138> the idea was that classic would see a 128x128 chunk
10:40:43 <peter1138> and as you walked near the edge, you'd get sent a new part of the map
10:40:59 <andythenorth> where *I* come from, everyone was a miner
10:41:04 <peter1138> but i never implemented it, heh
10:41:17 <andythenorth> the idea of mining does not seem fun
10:41:18 <peter1138> and then he released SMP
10:41:28 <peter1138> and i pretty much stopped developing the classic server, hehe
10:41:52 <SpComb> so what's peter1138's secret codename alias in the minecraft community?
10:42:01 <andythenorth> does minecraft have a feature where you go down the mine all day, get vibration white finger, go to the pub, drink 10 pints of guiness, then go home and beat up your wife?
10:42:15 <SpComb> andythenorth: no, it's a fantasy world
10:42:31 <andythenorth> then you have a big strike, fight other miners, then thatcher shuts down all the mines?
10:42:48 <andythenorth> totally unrealistic :P
10:43:03 <peter1138> MORE REALISM IN MINECRAFT
10:43:03 <SpComb> you'd have to build a pub out of 1m³ blocks to be able to drink there, and similarly, you'd have to first build a wife out of 1m³ blocks to beat it up
10:43:13 <peter1138> realistic acceleration of minecarts!
10:43:28 <SpComb> peter1138: you don't like the part where they collide and speed up?
10:43:46 <Wolf01> he needs to fix all the bugs first
10:43:54 <peter1138> don't you love the part where you can carry 48000 tons of gold
10:43:56 <SpComb> but then it wouldn't be alpha anymore
10:44:01 <peter1138> but only 40 pieces of bacon?
10:44:06 <SpComb> he needs to figure out his company and development team
10:44:29 <SpComb> "The first step will be to commit everything to our brand new version control system (git), the second step will be to start screaming out loud (“aaaaaaaaa!!”) and just start typing code randomly. That should do it."
10:44:40 <SpComb> I do wonder what he was using before..
10:45:28 <Wolf01> I think he's arriving at a point where the project is growing too much for just one person
10:45:44 <peter1138> no, that was a few months ago
10:45:51 <peter1138> and he has a team now
10:46:32 <Wolf01> gah, I need another display...
10:49:39 <Wolf01> Q: "How do you minimise the line attenuation and maximise the snr?"
10:49:39 <Wolf01> A: "Move your house closer to the exchange."
10:50:35 * peter1138 now gets 17Mbps at home, which is quite nice
10:50:53 <Wolf01> it remembers me about Sacro's way to zoom in in OTTD: move your head further towards the display
10:51:41 <Wolf01> SNR Margin 40.1 31.0 dB
10:51:41 <Wolf01> Line Attenuation 11.5 11.0 dB
10:52:09 <Wolf01> I have SNR 7.2dB and Attenuation 56-60dB
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10:56:56 <polymorphZ> just wondering if i disable airports in ai settings and start a new game, it won't be disabled
10:57:37 <polymorphZ> and aidebug cannot modify value
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11:09:50 <Wolf01> andythenorth, about your rivers pony, you can check the "lively rivers" patch by boekabart ;)
11:12:40 <andythenorth> is that the one that makes dynamic rivers in game?
11:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> how obvious is it, that exactly the _last_ CD is the one that i'm looking for?
11:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause> end_request: I/O error, dev sr0, sector 1167104 <-- that doesn't sound good
11:17:56 <peter1138> Wolf01, one problem with infinite worlds is you can't normalise the landscape
11:18:13 <peter1138> therefore you need to choose your perlin parameters carefully (if you use perlin, heh)
11:18:48 <peter1138> tgp uses normalization all over the place, heh
11:19:23 <peter1138> but it likes to count the amount of points to make sea level
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11:20:19 <peter1138> if i started an openttd-alike with infinite worlds, i might use a 3d landscape
11:20:32 <peter1138> real tunnels, real bridges... yum
11:21:07 <Nite_Owl> In what year do the oil rigs become viable? <Have searched - not found>
11:21:14 <Wolf01> what about finite maps but each client loads only a chunk? it should reduce the memory used (so portable/low performance pc could benefit), but in SP mode it should be the same of now, the game is both the client and the server
11:22:09 <Wolf01> and in MP you need a lot more sync
11:24:01 <peter1138> another problem is there is no "player position" in ottd
11:24:17 <peter1138> well not in the same way
11:24:30 <peter1138> you can switch to different parts of the map instantly
11:24:38 <Wolf01> and there are multiple viewports too
11:25:58 <peter1138> you need to have towns and industries generated on the fly too
11:26:18 <peter1138> which would mean town and industry lists wouldn't work too well
11:26:41 <fonsinchen> Infinite maps by combining multiple games on different servers, with a protocol to exchange vehicles between them.
11:26:58 <Nite_Owl> Thought of another way to find out...
11:27:02 <fonsinchen> Like map on server A is east of map on server B and vehicles can travel between them.
11:28:13 <Alberth> hmm, gives nice opporunities for DOS :)
11:28:42 <fonsinchen> yeah, the server has to know which other servers it trusts
11:29:20 <Alberth> even with just good servers. Just drive all vehicles to the same area at the map :)
11:30:17 <fonsinchen> That highlights another related problem: how do you send vehicles to a different game? You have to be logged into both games somehow and make an order list spanning two games.
11:30:50 <Alberth> yeah, vehicles is much more complicated
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11:31:16 <Alberth> I still want to try a connection with cargoes between openttd servers
11:31:55 <fonsinchen> could be solved by somehow registering a vehicle with another server and a company there. That company can set an orderlist for it then and there is a special order saying "leave the map to <direction>".
11:32:17 <Alberth> a kind of 'harbour' or so, where cargoes you bring are moved to a different server for pick up
11:32:24 <fonsinchen> This would enable the server to control the number of vehicles coming: it can reject registrations
11:32:56 <fonsinchen> It would also enable vehicles to exist on different maps without one client being logged into multiple games.
11:33:43 <fonsinchen> with a harbour you limit the exchange to goods. Might also be enough.
11:38:10 <peter1138> hurr, 11:38 o'clock
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12:04:36 <peter1138> Wolf01, so, infinite-world-ottd; would you use a fixed scale? heh
12:05:35 <Wolf01> yes, sort of, the world is really big, not infinite, and the client loads portions of map
12:07:37 <peter1138> has to be 2d graphics
12:07:44 <dih> and whatever this project is called that fg uses to get the map data from google earth ^^
12:08:08 <peter1138> so OSG with realworld data :p
12:08:27 <peter1138> it would be pretty boring
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12:14:09 <peter1138> yeah, that sort of fell off the earth
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12:21:02 <dih> peter1138, some people wanted to drive trains, did they not? :-P
12:21:24 <Wolf01> I wanted to drive a train on last strike
12:22:50 <dih> Wolf01, that patch is old :-P
12:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is there something cdemu-like, but fuse based?
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13:32:21 <fonsinchen> what programs do people use for the pixel-pushing in sprites when creating grfs? gimp? It seems gimp is fairly clumsy when modifying single pixels, but maybe that's me ...
13:33:23 <andythenorth> sledgehammer, nut
13:33:40 <andythenorth> but I have the shortcuts wired into my fingers
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13:35:27 <planetmaker> gimp works quite fine for me
13:35:42 <planetmaker> But it took me also quite some time to get used to it. It has a bit non-standard interface
13:36:31 <fonsinchen> Considering that I don't know any interfaces of graphics programs that shouldn't be a problem for me :)
13:36:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth, without shortcuts any programme probably is a pain ;-)
13:37:04 <planetmaker> I'm quite happy to know the shortcuts for the common gimp tools which I frequently need for some sprite processing
13:37:28 <planetmaker> you just need the proper palette and then off you go...
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13:47:24 <planetmaker> hm. Daydreamer leaves and the realbigdreamer joins. Chance or purpose? ;-)
13:48:51 <realbigdreamer> Hehe, yeah I also thought that was kinda weird...
13:49:00 <Terkhen> nickname incompatibility
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13:49:48 <realbigdreamer> I'm guessing most of you guys are from Europe?
13:50:06 <planetmaker> Not sure whether you guess that
13:51:07 <planetmaker> many are. But far from all
13:51:22 <planetmaker> it's also a good time to find Europeans online ;-)
13:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say going towards 90% ;)
13:51:35 * roboboy wonders where Terkhen is from
13:52:02 <realbigdreamer> Cause you guys are either always online and active or my timing is VERY good...
13:52:05 * Eddi|zuHause also wonders where the spanish translator might come from :p
13:52:23 <planetmaker> realbigdreamer, always being in this channel != always online ;-)
13:52:29 <Eddi|zuHause> realbigdreamer: we are always online
13:52:36 <planetmaker> I have my server sticking around for me when I'm not here
13:52:44 <planetmaker> so do many others
13:52:58 <andythenorth> check out this video - specifically how he's done the gear ratios
13:53:13 <andythenorth> it's spookily similar to writing industry production code in nfo
13:54:08 <andythenorth> round about 1:55
13:54:11 <realbigdreamer> Oh okay. I'm not from Europe. I'm guessing I'm the nearest to Antartica in this channel...
13:54:27 * andythenorth wonders if lego does floating point maths?
13:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> how exactly can you "patent" something that you "rebuilt from ancient plans"?
13:54:37 <planetmaker> sleep well and nice dreams in that case, roboboy
13:54:49 <roboboy> where are you from realbigdreamer ?
13:55:01 <roboboy> I'm not sleeping right now
13:55:02 <Rubidium> realbigdreamer: if that job offer for sysadmin wasn't only for Australians I might've been the closest :)
13:56:40 <realbigdreamer> I might be wrong about the Antartica thing, but I'm from South Africa. And no, it's way different from the idea everyone has about Africa.
13:57:06 <realbigdreamer> Lions don't walk around freely here. At least not most of the time... :D
13:57:15 <peter1138> "i've never met a nice seth efrican"
13:57:45 <realbigdreamer> I'm from european heritage
13:58:06 <realbigdreamer> Only live here in SA.
13:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: btw. what relevance does being an apple guy have in this story?
13:58:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: gets engadget more viewers by mentioning the fruit flavoured company?
13:59:22 * andythenorth thinks lego probably *does* do floating point maths
14:00:08 * Eddi|zuHause doesn't think the greek had invented the concept of a point, though
14:00:55 <andythenorth> they probably worked with hex :P
14:01:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the babylonians had a positional system, but the "point" was rather derived from context there
14:01:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: actually, the babylonian numeric system was base 60
14:02:33 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a cool number, because it is dividable by 2,3,4,5 and 6
14:04:32 <SmatZ> and 8 and 10 and 12 and 15 and ...
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14:05:42 * dih has no idea what those random numbers were about, but he thought contributing could be fun
14:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> this system is still found in our current way to divide hours or angles in "minutes" and "seconds"
14:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: _42_ hasn't been here in years
14:12:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the two people who are _really_ on opposite sides of the world :p
14:13:15 <fonsinchen> what tool do you use to align and label sprites with numbers in a big png; like terrain04.png in opengfx?
14:13:43 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, that file is not the best guide for doing (new) sprites.
14:14:14 <planetmaker> What I do (and ask graphic artists to follow), is to provide sprites of the same kind in a somewhat regular pattern
14:15:20 <planetmaker> then I use gimp to determine their sizes and measure out their upper left coordinate
14:15:31 <planetmaker> Given a regular pattern I only have to do that for the first instance.
14:15:53 <fonsinchen> so you arrange the sprites manually in the file?
14:15:54 <planetmaker> In all subsequent ones I only have to determine the upper left of the first sprite (e.g. vehicles where there are 8 sprites per vehicle)
14:16:27 <planetmaker> Those who draw it have to do that anyway.
14:16:33 <SmatZ> [15:13:22] <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 7.5 <== shame... I wasn't really thinking about those numbers :-x
14:16:49 <planetmaker> So they can use the same pattern for others, too
14:18:04 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, you might checkout the OpenGFX repository. It has some graphics "templates"
14:18:24 <planetmaker> which can be used to define sizes and offsets. E.g. for ground sprites, train wagons, houses...
14:18:45 <fonsinchen> Oh, I'll have a look. Thanks
14:18:52 <planetmaker> just using those templates for new graphics saves you doing all that measuring again :-)
14:19:11 <planetmaker> Or OpenGFX+Trains and SwedishRails use also templates for most things
14:19:11 * fonsinchen is trying to create frozen shore tiles
14:19:22 <planetmaker> Not much point in creating a template for a one-time sprite, though
14:23:14 <planetmaker> graphics and related nfo templates (need cpp pre-processor)
14:23:43 <planetmaker> the templating is WAY easier in NML, where you can also easily do relative positions with x and y
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14:31:30 <realbigdreamer> Be back later. Cheers guys
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14:37:31 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, I sent you in tt-forums two files which you possibly could make good use of when doing ground tiles
14:38:30 <planetmaker> The ground tile file there is even better suitable for new stuff than any openGFX ground tile file
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14:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what does 42, 88 and 78 mean in there?
14:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: your last link.
14:40:24 <planetmaker> 88 is 8 8th wagon length (8 views)
14:40:45 <planetmaker> 42 is also 8/8 wagon length, but only 4 views
14:40:51 <planetmaker> 78 is 7/8 wagon length
14:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the naming is not very consistent :p
14:41:40 <fonsinchen> for the basic ground tiles I just edited the nfo files for now and used different sprites from terrain04.png. That's fine so far.
14:41:47 <planetmaker> the naming will need some revision at some stage
14:41:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and the whole file is probably very redundant
14:41:58 <planetmaker> fonsinchen, use NML. Easier ;-)
14:42:01 <fonsinchen> Now I'm creating frozen shore tiles as those don't exist yet.
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14:42:32 <fonsinchen> I didn't edit them manually; I used a shell script with grep, awk and bc to just change the numbers.
14:42:35 <planetmaker> Though for simple replacement not shorter, it allows you to use just the x and y offsets
14:49:16 <fonsinchen> oh, gridless. That's a good idea in fact.
15:04:02 <planetmaker> Belugas, not real :-) But it gives a completely different atmosphere. Like a drawing
15:04:24 <planetmaker> you might try with the TTD version
15:06:35 <Belugas> i kow, planetmaker :) i'm just... in a joking mood
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15:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i got an "Error: Assertion failed at line 76 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/src/saveload/../tile_map.h: tile < MapSize()" when loading an old savegame...
15:26:07 <Belugas> which is what most users are craving for...
15:29:36 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: please open a bugreport :)
15:29:49 <SmatZ> if it's a TTDP save, it may be ignored though...
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15:30:54 <SmatZ> or if it's a <0.5 save, it may be caused by missing GRFs
15:33:39 <planetmaker> doesn't look bad :-)
15:34:09 <planetmaker> But... it might be easier to "fix" openttd accepting snow line height of 0 :-P
15:34:15 <ccfreak2k> Palm trees in the arctic huh?
15:34:36 <planetmaker> Well. There are palm trees as far North as Orkney
15:35:01 <fonsinchen> I want the tropic features of desert/rain forest and water/food town effects.
15:35:34 <planetmaker> ccfreak2k, they grow there at least. I doubt they're native
15:36:09 <fonsinchen> trees will be replaced by something strange which will be "recycled" by the scrap yard.
15:36:52 <fonsinchen> rough land and rocks might get replaced by trees in turn
15:37:18 <planetmaker> rough land doesn't grow, though
15:37:38 <planetmaker> and ground tiles must not exceed the... ground
15:37:43 <planetmaker> As such that will prove problematic
15:37:47 <fonsinchen> I don't actually need trees to grow. They'd be for decoration only.
15:37:56 <fonsinchen> Well, only rocks then
15:38:17 <planetmaker> Yeah, but exceeding the ground tile glitches
15:38:48 <fonsinchen> whatever, no trees then.
15:39:05 <fonsinchen> snow is too high for trees to reach the ground anyway. :)
15:40:11 <planetmaker> hm, good idea actually
15:40:41 <realbigdreamer> Can I ask a quick off topic question?
15:40:57 <realbigdreamer> Do any of you use the undernet IRC server?
15:41:15 <TrueBrain> we do use OFTC IRC servers!
15:41:57 * planetmaker has the feeling, that even both questions were answered with 'yes', a 3rd, follow-up with the real question would be asked ;-)
15:42:21 <planetmaker> (no, I don't no that network)
15:42:38 <realbigdreamer> Hehe, is it possible to be banned by the server?
15:43:04 <TrueBrain> I guess this channel is #askyourgeneralquestionhere
15:44:51 <realbigdreamer> I didn't do anything, but I can't connect. I just went into a channel said two words, disconnected and now I cannot connect.
15:45:26 <realbigdreamer> Not the first time it's happened though.
15:45:55 <Wolf01> depends of the two words... if they were "f*** y**" you probably got banned
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15:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i'm not even sure if it may be plain corrupted or from a patched build. i have other savegames of that same game which do load.
15:54:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and what's this thing with ICE3s smoking?
15:55:40 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: crash.log should contain gamelog - you well se there if the game was played in a patched version
15:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: it only says "Conversion from OTTD savegame without gamelog: version 27, 0"
15:56:31 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: then it's too old to say something about it :(
15:56:51 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: FS#4275 is a bugreport about steamy ICEs
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15:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: yeah, i know. from the various discussions all over the place i just never figured out whether it's now an openttd bug or a dbset bug
15:58:45 <SmatZ> that FS task is Assigned, so probably bug in OTTD :)
15:59:31 <Yexo> IIRC it was assinged as in "frosch will look at the behavior and compate openttd/ttdpatch/spec to see who is right"
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16:00:02 <planetmaker> yep, that's how I understood it, too
16:00:16 <Yexo> from what I've seen so far I think it's a bug in openttd
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16:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> some misinterpretation of a default value, i presume?
16:03:37 <Yexo> no, a disagreement on whether some callback should be called for all vehicles or only for vehicles that have some value set
16:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so... who wanted to implement this "turn effect vehicles transparen/invisible" feature?
16:03:49 <Yexo> ^^ vague, I know. THe forum discussion will give you the values
16:04:42 <realbigdreamer> No, (wolf and brain). Was more like hi and bye. Sheesh, dunno how I get banned that easily.
16:05:30 <realbigdreamer> Do they ban your IP?
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16:15:14 <Terkhen> I wonder why icu-config still searchs for dll files after explicitly disabling them
16:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "adding settings to very sensible parts of the code (such as the acceleration code) might create a noticeable performance hit." <-- i read over that three times before realizing you meant "sensitive"...
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16:19:09 <Terkhen> let's add yet another patch to my icu queue
16:20:33 <Eddi|zuHause> what's weird is that it's the same false friend in german->english as well ;)
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16:37:37 <planetmaker> might be justified, though
16:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... somebody remind me that windows is still running in the background...
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17:00:59 <frosch123> he does not like us :p
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17:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> wha... that was scary :p
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17:03:29 <frosch123> we discontinued openttd
17:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause> this is an off-topic channel now.
17:04:06 <planetmaker> and for some people who sometimes become sentimental
17:04:07 <frosch123> we only play opendune :p
17:04:32 <planetmaker> hello Celestar :-)
17:10:29 <planetmaker> he. interesting wagon formation
17:10:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, Rubidium. realbigdreamer has left the channel :p
17:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... and the typical zero-knowledge replies in the forum...
17:16:44 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: sorry, i was infected with dreaming :p
17:18:14 <fjb> The effect of hibernation.
17:20:55 <frosch123> fjb: Eddi even tries to make jokes in a room full of fools, which then noone understands :p
17:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: MB was the only one who understood it ;)
17:22:19 <frosch123> Terkhen: you know two days ago, when rb removed the pause cheat?
17:22:48 <frosch123> eddi posted that message to german forums, and everyone went berserk about the dropped feature
17:23:06 <Terkhen> I should learn german :D
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17:23:18 <frosch123> then someone told them about the new setting, and they did not understood it, and continued moaning :p
17:23:22 <planetmaker> and they didn't even understand it when mb basically put their nose on "it's now a setting"
17:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> they hardly got it even after the third person tried to explain it.
17:24:46 <Terkhen> they were not even paying attention to the messages?
17:24:59 <planetmaker> that's a trait not exercised there
17:26:00 <Terkhen> it seems that paying attention to written stuff is not a common ability :P
17:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> but these guys practically perfected the ability of incomprehension of written sentences
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17:31:45 <frosch123> haha, i knew sirkoz would start a topic about it :)
17:33:15 * fjb should start to read the German forum again...
17:34:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21447 /trunk/src/ (widget.cpp widget_type.h): -Add: accessor function to get the direction of a scrollbar
17:34:46 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: it's probably a bad idea :p
17:35:23 <fjb> It is not even in my bookmarks any more.
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17:36:14 <Rubidium> tt-[abbr: more shit].de :)
17:40:14 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Don't make fun of the simple minded. :)
17:45:12 * fjb stops reading the german forum. It hurts too much.
17:47:24 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21448 /trunk/src/ (widget.cpp widget_type.h): -Add: generic widget for creating a scrollable (one direction) and resizable (both directions) area with same sized widgets
17:47:52 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21449 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Change: make the waypoint window make use the generic "matrix" widget
17:48:09 <fjb> Achtung! You are now entering the German Forum. Please leave your brain at the entrance.
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17:52:14 <realbigdreamer> Did another dreamer just leave by any chance?
17:53:58 <realbigdreamer> :D Oh, nvm. I see the other one is here...
17:56:00 <planetmaker> fjb: I'm sure there's no refund, should it become damaged meanwhile, is there? ;-)
17:57:29 * fjb bets it will run away screeming.
18:01:59 <Belugas> what's with the german forums?
18:02:06 <Belugas> i can't read german...
18:03:17 <planetmaker> don't bother about it when the only interest in learning it would be only because of that forum
18:04:04 <Belugas> ho... i backlog read it now, too late:D
18:04:37 <realbigdreamer> What forum is german?
18:05:14 <Belugas> like... we have the english formu
18:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> "Den Kontext der Handlung wollen die anwesenden Finnen nicht erklären („wegen der Überraschung“), vermitteln aber den gelassenen Eindruck von Menschen, die solche Szenen aus dem Nachtleben Helsinkis gewohnt sind. Nebendran stehen Vertreter der hessischen Filmförderung, die den Film mitfinanziert, denen das alles eher finnisch vorzukommen scheint."
18:06:12 <Belugas> www.tt-forums.net <- that's the englis one
18:06:41 <Belugas> www.ttycoonfr.net <-- that's the french one
18:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> [reports from the set of the movie "Iron Sky", by the creators of "Star Wreck]
18:09:12 <Belugas> sadly, i don't have german formu address...
18:09:23 <Belugas> sadly for sake of completion...
18:09:32 <Eddi|zuHause> rubidium gave a clue earlier ;)
18:10:45 <frosch123> you will meet your best friend there :p
18:11:29 <frosch123> the other one is italian afaik
18:14:01 <fjb> The Department of Foreign Affairs should close the German forum because it damages Germany's reputation.
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18:15:21 <planetmaker> that's even punishable by law :-P
18:15:33 <fjb> But our foreign minister also does so.
18:15:51 <Belugas> there is an italian forum? was not aware
18:16:12 <Belugas> well.. i know one italian user i like, and one i don't
18:18:05 <fjb> __ln__: Doesn't look that different from Germany.
18:18:57 <planetmaker> so your town needs a "kick in the ass"?
18:20:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "Die Selbstironie beginnt schon beim Logo für die finnische Kulturhauptstadt. Es zeigt eine lodernde Flamme. Wieso Feuer? "Weil Turku in seiner Geschichte ungefähr 30 mal abgebrannt ist", erklärt Saara Malila, Sprecherin der Kulturhauptstadt."
18:23:10 <__ln__> and unfortunately, after the latest fire in the 1800's, Turku lost its role as the capital city.
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18:47:07 <Absolutis> __ln__: IIRC the capital was moved by russia because helsinki was closer to russia
18:47:45 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21450 /trunk/src/lang/ (29 files in 2 dirs):
18:47:45 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:47:45 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: romanian - 14 changes by kkmic
18:47:45 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 6 changes by Fixer
18:50:08 <__ln__> Absolutis: quite possible, but the whole city centre of Turku burning down can't have been a negligible factor.
18:50:23 <Absolutis> yes, thats true too
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18:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i hope you don't forget the mousover-text ;)
18:59:01 <Wolfie> #OpenTTD, I have a problem.
18:59:50 <Wolfie> I can't get newGRFs from the content server working at all on my dedicated server.
19:00:53 <Wolfie> The server just ignores any changes to openttd.cfg
19:01:32 <LordAro> have you restarted the server?
19:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause> a) you shouldn't modify the .cfg while the server is running, b) maybe it's using a different .cfg altogether?
19:01:55 <Wolfie> I don't modify while it's running.
19:02:22 <Wolfie> And I know it's using the CFG because the server name etc is set correctlty.
19:03:39 <Wolfie> It literally clears out the Newgrf config section each time I start the server.
19:04:15 <Rubidium> then either the files or missing or the paths are incorrect
19:05:35 <Wolfie> Okay, I can't see where to put the GRFs beside ~/.openttd/data
19:05:55 <Yexo> what did you put in the config file in the newgrf section?
19:12:49 <Ammler> an "autodownloder" needs first to be made ;-)
19:13:27 <Eddi|zuHause> a packagemanager-like cli interface for openttd ;)
19:13:33 <Ammler> the only useable war currently is to simply download everything
19:14:36 <Ammler> so you download the content and then you restart openttd and it should work
19:15:13 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: doesn't that already exist?
19:21:56 <Ammler> Rubidium: nice would be something like "content select <save>"
19:23:02 <Rubidium> doesn't work for dedicated
19:23:03 <Ammler> (if autodownload will never be possible :-)
19:25:14 <Ammler> the new save gui from frosch might be nice, but there we had already possiblity to download save grfs, what we miss is the same for the console
19:25:41 <frosch123> wasn't that task assigned ammler?
19:26:59 <Ammler> ah, I see, well then :-)
19:28:34 <LordAro> Rubidium: ok, am in a position to test regression properly, what are the steps to have to test it? mine keeps chucking out (it seems) everything...
19:43:19 <Terkhen> LordAro: are you confident that you are not using a patched OpenTTD?
19:44:02 <Yexo> LordAro: if you're testing on windows you might need to convert the openttd binary to a console app first
19:44:37 <LordAro> well i can try deleting my source directory and starting completely again, but i did 'svn revert . -R' and fully updated it first :/
19:45:17 <Alberth> make mrproper ; ./configure ; make
19:46:18 <Alberth> svn revert -R . does not remove all files
19:48:13 <LordAro> so to clear my svn directory after i've (attempted and probably failed to) patch ottd, i should run 'make mrproper' ?
19:49:01 <Yexo> make mrproper removes all configuration and object files, svn revert just changes your source files to a state like they were before patching
19:49:22 <LordAro> so both would be good?
19:49:47 <Yexo> depending on what exactly you changed, only one might be needed but it's always safe to do both
19:51:56 <glx> make regression works for me without converting to console
19:59:42 <LordAro> compiling up to newgrf...
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20:05:33 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21451 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix (r21449): make sure the matrix's child widget's size is updated with the right widget index
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20:20:09 <Terkhen> a clean checkout should not fail regression
20:20:10 <Rubidium> sounds like the compiler stack is broken or something
20:20:23 <Rubidium> Terkhen: by the looks of it it crashes upon boot
20:20:38 <LordAro> i'm using mingw, if that matters...
20:21:02 <glx> LordAro: try converting to console (just in case)
20:21:03 <Terkhen> me too, but I don't have those problems
20:21:42 <glx> is it a debug build or release build ?
20:23:29 <glx> or ./configure --enable-console
20:23:51 <glx> IIRC regression crash for release builds
20:24:04 <glx> if not converted to console
20:25:49 <glx> hmm no crash for release build
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20:29:39 <andythenorth> where's DaleStan when you need him :(
20:39:15 <glx> and no crash for debug build
20:51:54 <LordAro> my test over: no crash (just complains about no graphics set) but still huge long list of 'differences'
20:53:25 <Yexo> you need a graphics set otherwise it won't start (so also won't execute the regression test)
20:54:14 <LordAro> ok, it does execute the regression test, but finding a graphics set now...
20:59:10 <LordAro> ah! thats got it :D it shouldn't execute the regression test if openttd fails though
21:08:11 <fonsinchen> I actually didn't know that you considered the non-stop thing the worst problem of cargodist.
21:08:37 <fonsinchen> I thought it was more about the smallmap and general coding style.
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21:30:39 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21452 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_object.h table/object_land.h): -Codechange: read object property 17 (number of views)
21:32:24 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21453 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add the view of an object to the savegame
21:33:04 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21454 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add support for object variable 48
21:34:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21455 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Feature [NewGRF]: selecting of different views of an object
21:37:52 <polymorphZ> Writing crash savegame...
21:37:52 <polymorphZ> Segmentation fault
21:38:00 <polymorphZ> and savegame empty
21:38:31 <polymorphZ> are my libraries broken and c-compiler too old?
21:39:05 <Yexo> we can't tell without your OS, library versions and C-compiler / c-compiler version
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21:45:31 <fjb> My biggest problem with (older versions, don't know the actual) cargodist is, that it ignores the sense of some orders. For example before going to a depot I usually unload all passengers at a station. The the vehicle goes to the depot and then it retakes it. I also had route designs where a train went to a station 2 times just after another, to turn it around. Loading the vehicle is only useful at the second stop in both examples, but cargodist
21:45:33 <fjb> insisted on loading at the first stop ignoring the loading and unloading orders.
21:46:29 <fonsinchen> When did it do that?
21:47:09 <fonsinchen> If you send it to the same station twice it will exactly behave as you describe it, even without explicit "load" and "unload"
21:49:27 <fonsinchen> It should at least. I'll check when I'm done with the merging of trunk changes.
21:49:39 <fjb> Oh, then the problem was the other way around. I also hat a design, where a train should load at the first stop and then the train turned around and went to the station a second time for path finding. In that case it didn't load at the first stop but tried to load at the second stop.
21:50:15 <Yexo> polymorphZ: I hope you got my hint above: crashes are bad, but to get any help you'll need to give us more information
21:50:21 <fonsinchen> that's true. It doesn't know which passengers to load at the first stop.
21:50:59 <fonsinchen> I could make a special case for that very thing and have it do order-lookahead if it sees it's going to visit the station multiple times.
21:51:13 <fjb> It does only look at the next station, even if that station is the same?
21:51:31 <fonsinchen> yes. If it's the same it decides it can as well load later on
21:51:44 <fonsinchen> of course it does more look-ahead for conditional orders.
21:52:01 <fjb> It should take a hint from the explicit order.
21:52:04 <fonsinchen> and it doesn't care about "go via"
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21:52:23 <fonsinchen> so, you could make the second stop "go via" and it will load at the first
21:53:48 <fonsinchen> So, should it actually stop at the second visit and if so, what should it do?
21:54:26 <fjb> Go via is not always possible because that is fulfilled as soon as a vehicle enters the station, but sometimes trains need to be at the exit of a station to do pathfinding correct (if it needs to turn around in the station).
21:55:30 <fonsinchen> I guess you have an order where it's allowed to unload but not to load, then?
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21:55:50 <fjb> If the oders allow loading at the first stop, but loading is forbidden at the second stop, it should recognize that.
21:56:27 <fjb> Usually the order for the second stop is no loading and no unloading.
21:57:00 <polymorphZ> Yexo: well old system
21:58:13 <fonsinchen> well, another very strange special case. It wouldn't be too hard to make an exception for that, but do we _really_ need that. Will anyone understand it?
21:58:22 <fjb> Second problem with cargodist is finding a proper timeout for unused routes.
21:58:52 <fonsinchen> That's automatic and depends on the length of the link, you can't configure it anymore.
22:00:04 <fonsinchen> And I haven't seen a lot of complaints about it lately (except for people messing with the daylength patch).
22:01:49 <fonsinchen> btw, there are no orders with "no unloading" and "no loading". Those are "go via" orders by definition.
22:02:04 <fjb> A stop where loading and unloading are not allowed could simply be removed from the routing.
22:02:13 <polymorphZ> i guess problem would fix if i upgrade to new system :(
22:03:19 <fonsinchen> go via is not considered a stop by cargodist
22:04:29 <fjb> I'm playing with a version of cargodist from spring (still the same game). Some routes (with ships) time out before the destination is reached. But sometimes I would like to have the possibility to explicitly invalidate a route (may be be clicking on it in the small map window or anywhere else).
22:05:34 <fonsinchen> requires a command and all that stuff. Can be done, but that can also be done as add-on. I don't think it's core functionality of cargodist.
22:05:44 <fjb> Not go via, a go to (not via) rule with "no loading" and "no unloading" option. could also be removed.
22:05:57 <fonsinchen> that's the same in the code
22:06:12 <fonsinchen> and that's probably why you can't define such an order
22:06:57 <fjb> Ah, ok, then it changed from my old version. But I don't want to start a new game till this one is over and I fear that a never version of cargodist is unable to load my old game.
22:07:35 <fonsinchen> it will be unable to load it for sure.
22:07:41 <fjb> I can define a go to order without loading and unloading.
22:08:01 <fjb> But cargodist does not care for it.
22:08:33 <fonsinchen> If you define a go via order, do the links to/from it show up in the link graph?
22:09:03 <fonsinchen> If yes, then you're playing with a version that doesn't ignore go via, yet.
22:10:07 <PulseNeon> What does Cargo-dist do exactly?
22:10:47 <fonsinchen> it automatically routes cargo according to an algorithm that takes into account all reachable destinations.
22:11:15 <fjb> fonsinchen: No go via, I'm speaking about go to. Go via behaved different.
22:11:17 <PulseNeon> i.e. cargo gets reserved for a destination?
22:11:54 <fonsinchen> but try with "go via" please.
22:12:12 <fjb> Go via is unusable in some situations.
22:12:36 <fonsinchen> I'd like to determine if you have a version that already has that feature.
22:13:06 <fonsinchen> If you have such a version and it doesn't ignore those go to orders without loading or unloading then something is wrong.
22:13:21 <polymorphZ> Yexo: also mozilla and konqueror had segmentation fault issues on same system
22:13:26 <fonsinchen> (even if I don't know how you managed to define those orders)
22:13:42 <fjb> Go via and go to are fundamentally different from the path finding point of view. So go via can not always replace a go to.
22:13:49 <Yexo> ok, so it's likely something else on your system
22:14:01 <fonsinchen> do you have the game running right now?
22:14:55 <fjb> No, I did not use that design in my actual game because cargodist never got it right.
22:16:07 <fonsinchen> ok, now I can check for myself. It's done with merging
22:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: you hacked your version to allow both "no loading" and "no unloading" at the same time?
22:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: because standard openttd actively prevents that combination
22:17:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (which i think is bad.)
22:17:48 <fonsinchen> it does that because it would be the same as "go via". As there is no separate field saying "stop" or "don't stop".
22:18:30 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: yexo * r21456 /trunk/src/newgrf_house.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] make sure the parameter for house var 60 is the id of an original house
22:18:32 <fjb> The difference between go to and go via is that go via is fulfilled as soon as the first vehicle of a train enters the first tile of an station. The pathfinder starts to look for the route to the next order in that moment and the train is not allowed to turn around there. Go to is fulfilled when the train is fully in the station (if the station is long enough).
22:18:45 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: that was not the question.
22:19:07 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: No, may be I misinterpreted the orders. I will have a look.
22:23:04 <fjb> Hm, you are right. Not possible in the actual (actual in spring) version. One setting reverts the other. But I remember it was working in an older version. Or it got displayed incorrectly in the older versions.
22:23:07 <fonsinchen> OK, I've tried. It actually does load at the first stop
22:23:49 <fjb> fonsinchen: Then the problem is probably solved in the actual version of cargodist.
22:24:32 <fjb> Only my feature request to explicily invalidate a route is left.
22:24:38 <fonsinchen> hmm, maybe those were only passengers via "any station" ...
22:25:24 <fonsinchen> ok, you're actually right. It doesn't in fact load at the first stop.
22:25:41 <fjb> I had the problem with a freight train, but cargodist changed a lot over time.
22:26:16 <PulseNeon> I just saw robert fischer in Red Eye
22:27:32 <fonsinchen> I could just ignore subsequent stops at the same station in GetNextStoppingStation
22:27:42 <fonsinchen> but there was some problem with that idea, too ...
22:27:50 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: And I agree with you that not allowing "no laoding" and "no unloading" at the same time is a bad thing. It is even not obvious when you are not taking a very close look at the order in the list above but are only looking at the buttons you are clicking.
22:28:55 <fjb> fonsinchen: That woulg give a problem when loading is required at the second visit instead of the first. Remember the example with going to the depot.
22:29:40 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: you can put "unload all and no loading" then
22:30:32 <fonsinchen> so, I should ignore subsequent stops with "no loading" then. That will make problems if the first stop is "no unloading" and the second is "no loading" though. I see why I didn't do it ...
22:30:41 <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: If cargodist obeys that part of the order.
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22:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: afair cargodist was recently made so it properly considers "unload all" with any number of subsequent "no loading" orders
22:32:18 <fjb> fonsinchen: You would have to have both stops in the list then and make the look ahead look one destination further.
22:32:28 <fonsinchen> no, it only considers a "leave empty" with any number of subsequent "no loading"
22:33:16 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21457 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Feature(tte) [FS#4215]: scroll to the inserted order (thror)
22:33:37 <fonsinchen> Or I could make you specify "no unloading" when you don't want to unload and look ahead to the next different station in GetNextStoppingStation.
22:34:31 <fjb> Collapsing two ore more subsequent stops at the same station to one gives problems.
22:34:40 <fonsinchen> in fact manually controlled unloading is much easier to handle than manually controlled loading.
22:35:11 <polymorphZ> can someone tell me why it openttd lagging so much in multiplayer?
22:35:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that's what i meant.
22:35:26 <polymorphZ> saved the game nd loaded it, and it goes well
22:36:08 <fjb> I guess it is difficult, but you will get complains as long as manual rules are overridden by an automatic that tries to be be smarter than the user.
22:38:02 <fonsinchen> I actually have an idea on how to solve it. It breaks the automatic loading/unloading if you're sending trains to a depot in between and want to unload before and load afterwards. But you've done that manually before anyway.
22:38:47 <fjb> Yes. Not too much automatic.
22:39:13 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21458 /trunk/src/news_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4180]: possible crash when news item gets removed at just the wrong moment
22:45:03 <fonsinchen> yes, seems to work.
22:45:22 <fonsinchen> why didn't I do this before. There must have been some reason ...
22:47:48 <Eddi|zuHause> what i would like to see [independent of cargodist]: the train evaluates the next order before deciding to start from the station. then when that order is the same station, it doesn't start. so one can use conditional orders like "x% loaded", and the train would wait until it fulfils that order.
22:49:10 <fonsinchen> that would break all of fjb's pathfinding and depot tricks, though.
22:50:07 <Terkhen> or those crazy self regulated networks
22:50:16 <fonsinchen> ok, I'll guess I'll commit it and see if someone else remembers why I didn't do that before ... :/
22:50:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well, he can put a waypoint inbetween
22:50:21 <fjb> Why not load x% at the first order?
22:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: there is no "load x%" order
22:51:14 <Eddi|zuHause> what i mean is for example this:
22:51:26 <Eddi|zuHause> 2: if less than x% loaded, jump to 1
22:51:57 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: IIRC that's going to get *really* messy w.r.t. the arriving at station code
22:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that is a loop.
22:52:29 <polymorphZ> is 2.2GHz 64bit AMD with 1GB DDR memory a weak system to run openttd in multiplayer mode?
22:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> after the initial loading, it would be executed once after every loading step
22:52:44 <fjb> And how long to wait between each evaluation of the loop? Else you will have busy waiting.
22:52:59 <fonsinchen> ah, you could make a difference between 'same order' and 'same station'.
22:53:03 <fonsinchen> then it might work.
22:53:31 <Rubidium> but the order is eradicated upon "leaving" the station
22:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't immediately see all the implications of that
22:53:43 <ABCRic> polymorphZ: as long as it works for single-player; the main requirement for multiplayer mode is a good internet connection
22:54:09 * fjb gets a lot of ideas what could be done with loops in orders. :-)
22:54:35 <polymorphZ> ABCRic: so if multiplayer game lags its because a slow connection to server ?
22:54:45 <Rubidium> fjb: the amount of looping is per definition limited
22:54:59 <Rubidium> or because the server is too slow
22:55:05 <Rubidium> or because the connection is too unreliable
22:55:19 <Rubidium> or because your graphics card driver just sucks majorly
22:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i always wondered: how long (in ticks) is actually one loading step?
22:55:27 <polymorphZ> well i can imagine that if data hops over 5000 kms
22:55:31 <Rubidium> or because it's single core and timidity is running
22:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: the physical distance isn't all that relevant.
22:56:18 <polymorphZ> nope, saved the multi game and goes fine after loading single player
22:56:24 <Rubidium> or because you're using ubuntu 9.04 >= version > 10.04 with it's incorrect pulseaudio config
22:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> outside of routers, datacenters, etc. ["hops"], it travels at near light speed
22:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you can see the "hops" in a traceroute
22:57:26 <fjb> Light speed isn't that fast after all.
22:57:56 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: there are some substances where you can overtake it on a bike ;)
22:58:11 <polymorphZ> light speed will not be a limit i think compared to server and switch speeds
22:58:24 <polymorphZ> also there are repeaters under the ocean
22:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: exactly.
22:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i said the physical distance doesn't matter that much.
22:59:11 <polymorphZ> actually there are experiments teleporting data ( t=0 )
23:00:01 <fjb> But you have to transport the teleporting atoms to their destination first.
23:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: relativity theory says that transferring any kind of data is not possible above speed of light [in vacuum]
23:00:11 <polymorphZ> but you can be sure it will only be available for military first
23:00:52 <polymorphZ> get a steel rod with length 10000kms, move it
23:01:45 <Rubidium> actually, I'd argue that 125+ ms of the RTT from here to New Zealand is just the distance of cables at light speed
23:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: what's that supposed to achieve?
23:02:26 <polymorphZ> you transferred 1bit over 10000kms
23:03:03 <fonsinchen> ah, ... I know why I didn't do it.
23:03:20 <fonsinchen> the cargo is counted as sent twice now. nasty.
23:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: just having a stationary 10.000km worth of steel rod doesn't constitute a data transfer
23:04:55 <polymorphZ> Eddi|zuHause: ok but you move it
23:05:06 <fjb> fonsinchen: Why is it counted twice?
23:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: but not at speed of light
23:05:32 <fonsinchen> each time the train stops the cargo is routed.
23:05:32 <polymorphZ> Eddi|zuHause: no, but data transferred faster than that of the speed of light :)
23:05:42 <fonsinchen> it's "sent" to the next stopping station
23:05:57 <fonsinchen> as I do more look-ahead now, it's sent there at both stops.
23:06:12 <andythenorth> is there any point showing industries that are not available due to cb22
23:06:19 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: what data?
23:06:46 <polymorphZ> Eddi|zuHause: moved steel rod 12cm-s for example, the other end will move 12cms, so data.
23:07:05 <fonsinchen> there's a solution for that, though. give INVALID_STATION as curr_station to GetNextStoppingStation and you'll get the real next stopping station ...
23:07:10 <polymorphZ> a you can see its possible
23:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: and what part of your physics experiment suggests that both movements happen at the same time?
23:07:50 <andythenorth> how do you know someone didn't change the size of the measuring rod?
23:07:56 <polymorphZ> was thinking about a steel rods both ends move at same time
23:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: if you apply an impulse on one end, it spreads in wave form through the steel rod. means it has a spreading speed which will be significantly less than speed of light
23:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd imagine something around speed of sound
23:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. several orders of magnitude
23:09:14 <fjb> All the steel atoms have to be moved.
23:09:23 <andythenorth> polymorphZ: you don't know they move at the same time
23:11:19 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: i fear you need something slightly better to outsmart a century worth of physicists :p
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23:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> anybody have a table what's the speed of sound in solid steel?
23:13:04 <andythenorth> not the answer you seek
23:13:18 <ABCRic> Eddi|zuHause: I'd say 6000metres/second
23:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds reasonable. means that for a 10000km rod it may take hours!! until the other end moves.
23:15:19 <Rubidium> but... do you need to know the velocity of a longitudinal wave in bulk material, the transverse shear wave or the extension wave in a thin rod?
23:15:26 <fjb> That is why tin can phones are hardly used any more.
23:15:51 <Rubidium> because in the latter case it's 5000m/s according to Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 65th ed
23:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm not entirely sure what these mean, but the last one sounds like the one i searched for
23:18:40 <Rubidium> it's basically a seismic wave you want to know the speed of
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23:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: what i meant was if you use a sledge hammer on one tip of the rod.
23:23:36 <polymorphZ> Quantum Teleportation
23:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been experiments with quantum correlation, but no evidence has been found that actual data transfer may be possible this way
23:24:45 <planetmaker> typical travel times through Earth are of the order of a quarter of a day for seismic waves - which is approx 10000 km
23:25:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes, that fits into what i said.
23:25:40 <planetmaker> yep. I'm not contradicting you
23:26:23 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: now you're just repeating random words you heard on star trek :p
23:26:34 <planetmaker> polymorphZ: they're pointless. As their _lower_ velocity boundary is the velocity of light, you have no means whatsoever to detect them or use them for information exchange
23:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause> there are really funny effects if you put complex numbers in the formulas of the relativity theory ;)
23:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so mathematically there's no reason why tachyons shouldn't exist. but that still makes speed of light a singularity
23:29:47 <planetmaker> also physically there's no reason against the existance of tachyons.
23:29:53 <planetmaker> They simply cannot interact ;-)
23:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there might be a whole universe made of tachyons out there ;)
23:31:55 <planetmaker> you might even constantly be passed by them
23:38:38 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21459 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Feature(tte) [FS#3217]: Hotkey Ctrl+W for returning to the main menu
23:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> they might just be elementary particles like electrons, just with imaginary mass...
23:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you could see it like this: assume since the big bang our universe expanded at light speed [upper bound of particles with real mass], then the other universe retracted from that with light speed as well [lower bound of particles with imaginary mass]
23:44:42 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the speed of light is not a limit for the expansion speed of the universe
23:44:50 <planetmaker> it's a common mis-conception
23:45:13 <planetmaker> because space itself expanding is not bound to the laws of things within it.
23:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it may be only one of many theories
23:46:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'd not call it "common" :p
23:46:58 <planetmaker> well... actually the statement "the universe expanded at light speed" is a non-statement which cannot be made this way
23:47:10 <Eddi|zuHause> for "ordinary" people, even the idea of a limited size universe is disturbing :p
23:47:20 <planetmaker> a speed requires a distance. But expansion of the universe is expanding the scale you measure with
23:48:06 <planetmaker> hm. Not the scale. But... the distances you want to measure between
23:49:00 <planetmaker> so expansion is always expansion per unit of (current) scale
23:49:38 <planetmaker> though miles/s/Mpc is nicer. Then you can get away with 42 ;-)
23:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: do we actually _know_ that speed of light might not change towards the edge of the universe
23:50:17 <planetmaker> speed of light is _defined_
23:51:06 <planetmaker> we don't really know it, but there's currently no indication, that the vacuum speed of light varies by the place.
23:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: speed of light is primarily _measured_ at the location of this earth.
23:51:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: nope ;-)
23:51:31 <planetmaker> It's meanwhile a defined constant :-P
23:51:52 <planetmaker> and the meter is the dependent variable
23:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: just a bunch of physicists defining something doesn't make it a universal truth.
23:52:24 <Eddi|zuHause> the earth was defined to be flat, after all
23:53:08 <planetmaker> as said: there's no indication that space is unisotropic and unhomogeneous
23:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but there is also no reason why it has to be.
23:53:51 <planetmaker> and time is the most accurately measureable property. Thus speed also
23:54:00 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: there is: Occams razor
23:54:04 <planetmaker> Everything else is religion
23:54:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "the earth is flat" is also subject to occams razor
23:54:54 <planetmaker> yes. But it was proven wrong.
23:55:10 <planetmaker> and it's not simpler than Earth is a sphere either
23:56:02 <planetmaker> so unless there's some explanation value in unisotropic universe and non-universality of fundamental constants (or a time dependence for them), the simplest assumption must be made
23:56:25 <planetmaker> Or I can explain gravity also by the Bausch which picks up the spoon and transports it down to the floor when it leaves my hands
23:57:18 <polymorphZ> Eddi|zuHause: so in electronics it is interesting to get square root of negative numbers
23:57:38 <polymorphZ> your computer power supply uses sqrt(-1) too :)
23:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> polymorphZ: there are plenty of uses for imaginary numbers
23:59:02 <planetmaker> you called an imaginary number. Please turn your phone 90° and try again :-P
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