IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-12-07
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00:08:05 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
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01:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> how crazy is the idea of maintenance cost for wagons?
01:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. making long distance cars cost more maintenance
01:30:34 <Eddi|zuHause> does the game actually support that?
01:40:46 <richardus> i read that as "maintenance cost for women"
01:47:55 <avdg> as long the costs are very low, its fine for me
01:48:08 <Eddi|zuHause> those are certainly quite high :p
01:48:24 <avdg> imo wagons are only maintained just enough too roll over rails
01:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the idea is to use that as a balancing factor
01:49:47 <Eddi|zuHause> use long distance cars for high speed trains, which bring in lots of money, or use short distance cars with not as high speed for slightly less money
01:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and the maintanence cost would shift this decision point of what constitutes "more" and "less" money
01:51:20 <Eddi|zuHause> tricky part is, if you go by wagon speed limits, the speed difference would only play out after ~1970
01:51:24 * avdg hates different lengths of wagons, unless you do it each quarter or kinda like that
01:51:52 <avdg> I always want to know how long they are, and if they fit in a station
01:52:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the depot shows that
01:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it shows the length of the train in halftiles
01:52:37 <avdg> but still, I am trusting on the number of wagons
01:52:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so a train with 7 wagons may be length 6, and thus fit in a 3 tile station
01:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is completely not the topic i am talking about
01:54:06 <Eddi|zuHause> modern long distance and short distance wagons don't really have different length
01:54:15 <Eddi|zuHause> they're around 26m long
01:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> older wagons may also be 18m, 12m or 9m
01:58:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm thinking about desiging a set around these four lengths
01:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm not really a graphics artist
02:03:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the general idea would be: 9m = 6/8, 12m=8/8, 18m=12/8, 26m=16/8. early testing shows this scale looks great on straight track, curves are a little problematic, but might be able to use another angle (22.5°). tunnels are the biggest problem.
02:03:43 <supermop> you could ride in say, a subway car for 300 miles
02:03:53 <supermop> but you wouldn't want too
02:04:29 <supermop> if you are in a situation where speed limits do not make a difference
02:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: yes, but the game doesn't handle prices depending on which vehicle was used
02:04:48 <supermop> and the short distance car is cheaper to run than the long distance car
02:05:13 <supermop> you would choose the commuter car for intercity trains because it was cheaper
02:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> commuter cars also tend to have higher capacity. that's kind of the problem
02:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there must be some incentive to use the long distance car over the short distance
02:06:43 <supermop> so the subway car is cheaper and higher capacity, and faster loading
02:07:53 <supermop> the only way i can think of it is to change paayment behavior in newgrf ssome how
02:08:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to make the subway car some ridiculous speed limit, like 60km/h or something
02:08:35 <supermop> except here in new yorrk, there are a couple places where it reaches 100kmh
02:08:48 <supermop> you could do like 2cc
02:09:01 <supermop> and have it cost more to run after 100 or 60
02:09:16 <supermop> but then we are right back to differentiating by speedlimit
02:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> 't tell the engine to go slower
02:10:01 <supermop> thaats the feature i really want
02:10:34 <supermop> "go non-stop to <x> at <y> km/h"
02:11:06 <supermop> so you can limit speed on specific sections to fit in with other trafic
02:11:20 <supermop> i like to play with careful timetables
02:14:12 <supermop> as long as we are fantasizing
02:14:49 <supermop> newgrf defined items that slow the decay of payment values would be nice
02:15:35 <supermop> transport fruit in a regular box truck, and it loses value at $x/tick
02:16:05 <supermop> while it is in a refridgerated truck, it decays at $x/2 per tick
02:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, something like this. then you can balance commuter/short distance/long distance/long distance with dining car by having capacity and price decay relation
02:19:42 <supermop> the decay curves would be the same, but just multiplied by some coefficient
02:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but this needs lots of thought... what about when a transfer is involved?
02:21:17 <supermop> passengers waiting at a station while transfered decay at x per tick
02:21:35 <supermop> but if the station contains a 'passenger' tile
02:21:44 <supermop> it is reduced by some value
02:22:09 <supermop> to discourage having 1000 people waiting around at a coal pile
02:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> waiting at station doesn't decay cargo prices currently
02:23:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and giving meaning to station tiles is... troublesome
02:23:21 <supermop> but it increases time in transit for transfers i think?
02:23:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no, transit time is only measured for vehicles actually moving
02:23:55 <supermop> it would have to be activated by parameter for participating station grfs
02:24:19 <supermop> so if i transfer 100000 tons of fruit to a station,
02:24:29 <supermop> i cant wait as long as i want to deliver it?
02:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (where "moving" includes waiting at a signal, but excludes loading/unloading at a station)
02:25:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, as long as you keep the station rating above 50%
02:25:40 <supermop> maybe tiles that affect rating?
02:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you already have statues for that
02:26:10 <supermop> but then you could spam a bunch of coal tipples to get 90% at a coal mine...
02:27:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had this discussion about station tiles several times, i have grown increasingly less favourable of the idea
02:27:43 <supermop> i think tiles that affect loading speed makes most sense
02:29:16 <supermop> so high passenger platforms increas speed for passengers, but decrease it for coal (as you would have to have station porters shovel it into the hoppers by hand)
02:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> but you have to extend the station specs to handle the special tile abilites, you have to add a pathfinder penalty, depending on loaded cargo (good luck with adding that)
02:31:27 <supermop> well you could get by with waypoints
02:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> and you have to get the grf authors to update their old grfs
02:32:02 <Eddi|zuHause> because the last thing you want is people complaining that their passenger station can't increase loading speed
02:32:31 <supermop> i think that part would be easier than convincing devs to entertain the idea
02:33:00 <supermop> i mean, it is not likely to happen anyway
02:33:16 <supermop> but if all standard grfs behave as normal
02:33:37 <supermop> and only new compliant grfs show the new behavior
02:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see convincing devs an unsurmountable obstacle
02:33:48 <supermop> you could have a graceful coexistence
02:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> if your idea is sound and your implementation is solid
02:34:49 <Eddi|zuHause> these two are the _real_ problem
02:35:18 <supermop> basically you need to add flags for each cargo type
02:35:39 <supermop> then in the station grf,
02:36:05 <supermop> maybe action 3 where you describe a tile as a certain type,
02:36:26 <supermop> you can set yes or no to faster loading for each type
02:36:48 <supermop> or just set the coefficient
02:37:40 <supermop> i think the pay rate decay modifiers is a better idea for now
02:38:11 <supermop> as a lot of sets try to differentiate between commuter regional and intercity
02:38:28 <supermop> and i dont think 3 separate passenger types is the answer
02:39:04 <supermop> as a tourist is likely to use a city bus or metro when visiting a city
02:39:21 <supermop> and ride along with regular commuters and bussiness travelers
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06:51:01 <planetmaker> [07:49] <Eddi|zuHause> [02:28:45] how crazy is the idea of maintenance cost for wagons? <-- it's called running costs. Yes, you can even alter that prorperty via callback
06:51:06 <planetmaker> good morning also
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09:02:46 <Suzari> Been trying to find an answer to my question regarding GRF's.
09:03:20 <Suzari> Do Graphics GRF's apply only to someone personally (i.e. if I'd run dutch trains) but not to anyone else on my server? or would they need the same GRF to be able to connect at all?
09:03:46 <V453000> everyone needs to have it
09:04:05 <V453000> for best performance, use the newGRFs that are on bananas
09:04:22 <Suzari> Sorry, slightly defining: Just to connect (and have old graphics) or to have it change their graphics?
09:04:53 <Terkhen> everyone playing the same game must have all the GRFs in use
09:05:21 <Suzari> Odd. A friend of mine has "openGFX" written on some things, and I use the old TTD GRF's
09:05:36 <planetmaker> that's a base set. Not a NewGRF
09:06:18 <Suzari> okay, I was just curious if I installed a graphical GRF that it would screw other up :)
09:08:00 <Terkhen> base sets don't matter, you can use the one you prefer without problems in multiplayer
09:08:05 <Suzari> Now to find a working Tram set and to get used to those.
09:08:32 <planetmaker> egrvts has some afaik
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09:47:25 <Terkhen> check the topic of the channel
09:47:57 <Suzari> Are trams a different road build menu, or are they just placed ontop of them automatically?
09:48:13 <ccfreak2k> Hold the roads button.
09:48:23 <V453000> have you actually looked into the game? :D
09:48:43 <Suzari> trying not to break the game in advance o.o
09:48:57 <Suzari> Definitely installing this next time
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09:49:17 * peter1138 ponders looking back at his roadtypes code
09:49:48 <Suzari> Thank you, and sorry to be such a noob.
09:50:31 <Terkhen> Suzari: you are welcome, and don't worry
09:50:43 <Suzari> Any other recommended mods for a better experience?
09:51:54 <Terkhen> play the game without any newgrfs many times first, that way you will be able to know which newgrfs are the best for your way of playing
09:53:02 <Suzari> In most games, some mods tend to make a game more interesting/better in general, is why I ask. I've enjoyed TTD for many years and I don't really mind it not changing, Trams are just one of the things I -wanted- to have :D
09:54:13 <Terkhen> eGRVTS includes a lot of vehicles besides trams, if you just want trams you could try Generic Tram Set
09:54:58 <Terkhen> Suzari: I have seen many people trying a lot of NewGRFs, but they couldn't decide because they did not even know the "default" game
09:55:45 <Suzari> it's true for my friends, as they are new to me, but TTD is an old favorite of mine, and I noticed them setting up mostly many bus stations over cities.
09:56:00 <Suzari> fun for growth of cities, but not my interests. Trains are, and trams are a fun addition
09:57:32 <Suzari> Also off course brushing up on my train rail use :)
10:00:53 <peter1138> ok, i looked at it for 5 seconds :s
10:02:03 <Terkhen> it's almost the same time I have been able to look at my patch today too
10:04:50 <peter1138> i think i got to allowing any two road types on a tile
10:05:22 <peter1138> but there's not yet any provision for drawing them in a specific order
10:06:52 <Terkhen> hmm... that's a lot of revisions
10:07:00 <Rubidium> not even 1600 revisions young
10:18:36 <dih> recovering from a very bad burn on my back / sholders
10:19:02 <planetmaker> uh :-( I hope it's "only" a sun burn
10:19:19 <dih> it's a sunburn alright ... second-degree burn
10:19:35 <dih> got it saturday a week ago
10:19:52 <dih> the sun in brazil does not like me :-P
10:20:09 * __ln__ has noticed california sun can be deceptive too
10:21:11 <dih> ozone layer in south brazil is like 2/3 of what we have here in germany ... :-(
10:21:23 <dih> good thing to know something like that before hand, but i did not
10:23:49 <planetmaker> could have asked me :-P
10:24:05 <planetmaker> the first weekend I was in NZ the same thing happend to me ;-)
10:27:13 <__ln__> i thought thin ozone layer is especially a feature of areas near poles? (not meaning eastern germany and czech here)
10:27:39 <planetmaker> the Southern sphere's magnetic pole is quite a bit off the pole
10:27:55 <planetmaker> And the Southern atlantic is notorious for the overall low in the magnetic field's strength there.
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10:28:19 <planetmaker> but yeah :-) Usually near the pole. But pole is relative
10:29:03 <Rubidium> I would've thought NZ would be roughly as far from a pole than us, but it's much further away
10:29:45 <planetmaker> between some late 30s up to early 50s
10:32:28 <planetmaker> not much difference given the time of the year ;-)
10:32:45 <__ln__> dih: i'm glad you didn't fall of the edge of the world
10:33:26 <dih> well, it's summer there ^^
10:34:01 <planetmaker> I'd put it as "ugly". But yeah :-P
10:34:37 <dih> hehe - i actually quite enjoyed it - the heat was not really bad
10:34:42 <planetmaker> if ! (10°C < T < 25°C) { print "ugly temperature" }
10:35:32 <Rubidium> 48S is as south as Paris is north (48N)
10:35:35 <Terkhen> planetmaker: do you have a special case for (35ºC < T < 45ºC)?
10:35:38 <__ln__> 40°C + hot wind, that's something (ugly)
10:36:27 <__ln__> Terkhen: btw, you're using the wrong character as degree sign... (i know it's not visually different in all fonts)
10:36:27 <planetmaker> Terkhen, yes. if ( 35°C < T < 45°C) && ( humidity > 30%) { print "unbearable temperature" }
10:36:50 <Rubidium> why is that limited to 45°C?
10:37:23 <planetmaker> if (T > 45°C) { print "welcome to hell's gate"}
10:37:32 <Terkhen> __ln__: I did not, but since I don't have the other one in my keyboard I will keep using the same one
10:37:52 <dih> planetmaker, you do not seem to be a fan of saunas
10:38:01 <Terkhen> Rubidium: because that's the highest temperature we ever got here
10:38:03 <Rubidium> in any case, high humidity is worse than high temperatures (at least 25+°C)
10:38:15 <Terkhen> I don't want to imagine anything higher P
10:38:21 <planetmaker> that's a special case, dih ;-) - I don't avoid them, but saying 'fan' would be an exageration, too
10:38:30 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
10:38:48 <planetmaker> but in Finland I can imagine much more to use saunas :-)
10:38:48 <Rubidium> even so... 24°C (aircon room temperature) in a meeting isn't that great
10:43:09 <SmatZ> funny how swiss banks have no problems with questionable accounts, but they close Assange's one
10:43:28 <Mortomes|Work> Well, he's a rapist after all!
10:43:35 <Mortomes|Work> That's the only reason they closed his account!
10:43:38 <planetmaker> I'm actually very deeply concerned about the methods employed there
10:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> a SUSPECTED rapist
10:43:54 <Mortomes|Work> Eddi|zuHause: I know, should I add <sarcasm> tags?
10:44:02 <planetmaker> Even a rapist has the right for bank accounts.
10:44:18 <Mortomes|Work> I wonder how many alleged rapists have had their swiss bank accounts frozen -.-
10:45:08 <planetmaker> Giving reaons like "illegal activity" should still subject to court decision. In all countries involved :-(
10:45:18 <__ln__> actually... some site suggested Assange is not really suspected of a rape, but something less serious.
10:45:32 <peter1138> they froze his account because of false address details
10:45:51 <planetmaker> Unfortunately that seems not to be the case anymore in times of mass-hysteria caused by simply mentioning the word 'terror'
10:46:01 <SpComb> Assange has an international interpol search warrant out for his for not using a condom
10:46:09 <SpComb> or something along those lines
10:46:46 <peter1138> the rape thing is separate :s
10:47:27 <planetmaker> should be entirely
10:47:54 <SmatZ> ok, let's suppose he was the only one who gave "wrong address" to the bank (whatever "wrong address" could mean)
10:48:19 <Mortomes|Work> Because we all know how serious swiss banks take correct address information!
10:48:41 <Rubidium> Mortomes|Work: they do. After all, they have to share it with the US Government
10:48:53 <planetmaker> what about number accounts?
10:48:54 <dih> Jrg Kachelmann still has his accounts ^^
10:48:57 <peter1138> it's been frozen because of wikileaks, and the excuse for the closure is the incorrect address
10:49:09 <peter1138> i'm just saying the banking stuff is unrelated to the rape stuff
10:49:29 <dih> i thought swizerland was offering political asylum
10:49:30 <SmatZ> I think we all were a bit sarcastic :)
10:49:30 <Rubidium> probably because the Swiss know that one of the leaks has information showing their "bank secrets" aren't that secret :)
10:55:10 <SpComb> so Assange withholds all the cables that referr to Switzerland and then moves there
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10:57:05 <Terkhen> yet another insurance
10:57:31 <Eddi|zuHause> everybody knows that freedom of information is the biggest threat to the free world in this century.
10:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because it would undermine all the effort to present terrorism as the biggest threat to the free world in this century
10:58:14 <SmatZ> they got him and hardly will free him :)
10:59:03 <planetmaker> I fear so. Though I have at least some hope in the Swedish courts
11:02:07 <Ammler> might depend on if the sex crimes are fakes
11:02:09 <planetmaker> looks like. He's been arrested at least
11:06:58 <Mortomes|Work> I am shocked! Truly shocked!
11:09:37 <planetmaker> yeah. quite ridiculous
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11:30:41 <SHADOW-XIII> hi all, forums down?
11:32:03 <SHADOW-XIII> it's fine now in here as well, thanks
11:33:04 <SmatZ> just asking often helps
11:34:50 <peter1138> usually it's "how do i do this thing i've been trying to get going for days..."
11:34:57 <peter1138> "oh shit, it's just that"
11:40:22 <planetmaker> SHADOW-XIII, if your question really only is "does this grf work with <whatever>" - then the quickest way always is "try!"
11:41:59 <planetmaker> it's even quicker than asking that question
11:42:35 <SHADOW-XIII> :P well, it's not like I can download it at home, so had to do it at work
11:42:46 <SHADOW-XIII> and yup, it's not working on 1.0.5
11:43:10 <planetmaker> as I write: it looks ugly with every openttd version
11:43:16 <planetmaker> but it "works" with every
11:44:32 <planetmaker> just as does Alpine Climate work with every base set ;-)
11:44:34 <SHADOW-XIII> I started OTTD, started new game with just 1 grf enabled (BigGui) and nothing
11:46:06 <planetmaker> Well. But I know that they have an effect on 1.0.5, too
11:46:22 <planetmaker> You maybe just didn't add all, and didn't check for the correct font size
11:46:34 <planetmaker> Each of those 3 grfs replaces one font size.
11:46:55 <planetmaker> or you have a different font specified within your cfg. Then it might be that the sprite fonts are not used at all
11:47:09 * SHADOW-XIII visits forum again
11:47:15 <planetmaker> if you don't know that there are 3 grfs withing the zip, I doubt you tested any of those
11:48:09 <SHADOW-XIII> my fault,, i downloaded last grf, not the zip
11:52:00 <SHADOW-XIII> though city names are cut (...) and menu/buttons not having adjusted height
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12:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone know what happens in TTDPatch when you read a byte sized variable as dword?
12:43:03 <Eddi|zuHause> best case: the other bytes are defined to be 0, worst case: the other bytes are filled with data from other variables
12:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i feared...
12:44:08 <Yexo> it might depend on the variable though, for example the 40+ and 60+ variables might behave like "best case"
12:44:16 <Yexo> the 80+ vars definitely don't
12:45:21 <Rubidium> I'd actually say, based on OpenTTD's 80+ implementations, that 80+ are "worst case" and even out-of-bounds reads
12:46:01 <Yexo> yes, var 80+ are definitely worst case
12:48:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i kinda feared that
12:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hacking some things...
12:49:42 <Yexo> the solution nml uses is to always read variables as dword and mask out the invalid bits
12:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i somehow need access to v->Next()->vehstatus and v->Previous()->vehstatus [var 80+32]
12:54:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and was wondering whether one can pack that into one variable
12:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> ttdpatch doc seems to suggest var 80+32 is word sized, so i'm missing a byte
12:57:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and we discussed previously that having generic access to both v->Previous() and v->Next() may be a bad idea
13:00:49 <Yexo> var 80+32 is a word in ttdpatch, but only the lowest 7 bits are documented
13:01:38 <Yexo> <Eddi|zuHause> ttdpatch doc seems to suggest var 80+32 is word sized, so i'm missing a byte <- I don't understand that
13:01:47 <Yexo> how are you "missing a byte"
13:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> v->vehstatus is byte
13:02:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if i want to pack three of these, i need three bytes
13:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> word is only two bytes
13:02:38 <Yexo> you can't change the 80+ variables, in ttdpatch those are direct memory accesses
13:02:52 <Yexo> so you need to define a new 40+ variable
13:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i said it's a hack
13:03:28 <Yexo> in which case, why care about ttdpatch?
13:04:20 <Yexo> in openttd you can change var 80+32 to return a dword value (in fact it does, even while only the lowest 8 bits are used)
13:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll try the 40+ way
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13:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> variable w is probably superfluous
13:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and the check in the for loop porbably inverted
13:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and i never rembember whether byte is signed or unsigned
13:29:33 <planetmaker> the other is int8
13:32:02 <Yexo> the check is indeed reverted
13:32:07 <Eddi|zuHause> version that actually compiles
13:35:35 <planetmaker> what does that vehicle status actually represent?
13:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> VS_HIDDEN, VS_STOPPED etc.
13:36:43 <planetmaker> uh.. and you need that for other vehicles?
13:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> if i have over-long vehicles, i need VS_HIDDEN for the previous and next vehicle
13:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid glitches in tunnels
13:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> basically: "if v->Previous() is hidden, cut first part of sprite of v"
13:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> while at it, i could also do similar thing for var 45 replacement...
13:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> comments? suggestions? flames?
13:59:57 <Yexo> make a function that contains the for loop and split the vars to 3 different cases
14:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: just the first paste site that i remembered...
14:02:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: member function of Vehicle? overload Previous(n) and Next(n) with default parameter n=1?
14:06:43 <Rubidium> switch (variable) { case 0x61: return (int8)parameter < 0 ? DirDifference(u, v) : DirDifference(v, u); etc?
14:06:52 <Rubidium> instead of that massive if cascade
14:08:34 <Rubidium> also I'd put line 4 at 1-3 and the comment from line 3 to line 4
14:09:21 <Rubidium> also, why return "v"'s vehicle status? You go through all the trouble to get u at an offset of v, but then simply use v
14:12:59 <Rubidium> also.. 61 seems to be a generalisation of 45
14:13:59 <Rubidium> so I think you should return the same value range for 61 as well
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14:16:06 <ivanthemad> Good morning all! I am having much difficulty with railroad signals. I have read the wiki articles and watched several tutorial videos, but I still don't get it.
14:16:45 <ivanthemad> Can anyone direct me to an incremental tutorial? One that explains how to use the signals in conjunction?
14:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the u/v is an oversight... what do you mean with "same value range"?
14:18:30 <Rubidium> you return something basically unsigned, var45 returns something signed
14:19:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean, i should sign-extend it?
14:19:42 <Rubidium> well, make it behave like var45's curvature info
14:19:47 <Rubidium> however that is implemented
14:20:04 <Rubidium> (I'm just scrolling through the specs here)
14:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or do you mean this part "( f > DIRDIFF_REVERSE ? f | 8 : f)"?
14:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it should basically do that, without the T part
14:21:00 <Rubidium> if that makes it behave like the var45 specs, then yes
14:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't tested it yet...
14:21:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but the intention is that it does that ;)
14:21:32 <Rubidium> well, you "only" have 1 nibble of curvature info
14:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i need to put the sign in somewhere
14:22:35 <Rubidium> although the question remains how much use checking the curvature compared to 2 wagons away is useful
14:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> thanks for pointing this out
14:23:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, assume you have an articulated vehicle of 3 parts, then the last part might want to know the direction compared to the first part
14:23:49 <Rubidium> which is 0 in an s-bend
14:23:59 <ivanthemad> Yexo: No, I have not
14:24:22 <Rubidium> meaning that if you sue that you'll *only* get two disjunct bits
14:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if one was crazy enough, one would want to add up the angles of all vehicles, so you get to count loops etc.
14:24:39 <Rubidium> unless you want to create a state explosion comparing all the directions and such
14:25:06 <ivanthemad> Yexo: This looks very useful, thank you!
14:25:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know the use yet.
14:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and what you asked is no different than T being 0 for var 45
14:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i can't get this access function to work... i get "error: invalid conversion from ‘const Vehicle*’ to ‘Vehicle*’"
14:29:24 <Rubidium> true, though at least you know the two other angles
14:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, you can get those with variable 1C
14:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> result of previous varaction 2
14:32:29 * Rubidium just thinks that > 3 parts wanting to behave as one is... uhm... stupid
14:32:49 <Rubidium> seriously... a six piece (3 tile) long bus?
14:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yeah, but it's not our job to judge that ;)
14:33:16 <Rubidium> is it our job to facilitate that?
14:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, it's no harm to throw the information out there and let the grf authors figure out how to abuse it
14:35:00 <Rubidium> except... unused/untested stuff is just waiting for a disaster to happen
14:35:06 <Rubidium> (desyncs and the likes)
14:35:42 <Rubidium> because it'll start being used after years when you don't have a clue anymore that you changed that years ago and only now people start (ab)using it
14:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the use/test case is the second step
14:44:29 <Rubidium> you return a non-const Vehicle*, whereas you pass it a const Vehicle*. As such v->Next() returns a const Vehicle* which you try to return
14:44:44 <Rubidium> i.e. you need to make the return of the function const
14:46:01 <Rubidium> sometimes I wonders whether to take Luukland's terms-of-use seriously
14:46:20 <Rubidium> i.e. whether to try and do everything from preventing violating said terms
14:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> do they include "Rubidium may not use any of this"?
14:46:34 <peter1138> any updated rules? heh
14:46:44 <Rubidium> peter1138: probably still the old ones
14:46:50 <Rubidium> "e) Using a different program then OpenTTD as interface between the player and his game is prohibited. Any other form of automatically generated information generated for a group of players advantage with malicious intentions is forbidden as well."
14:47:06 <peter1138> what, like the master server?
14:47:27 <Rubidium> together with "dictators in the development team"
14:48:33 <Rubidium> i.e. I'd interpret the developers as a group with malicious intent (in Luukland's eyes)
14:48:57 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
14:49:01 <Rubidium> which are accessing his games using something that isn't OpenTTD
14:49:43 <Rubidium> technically all I have to do is dropping the master server and updater packets that try to access his server
14:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i don't really want to return a const, but apparently the line "Vehicle *v = this;" spoils the entire thing
14:51:02 <Rubidium> then don't make it a const function...
14:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that may explain it
14:51:31 <Rubidium> but *why* do you need a non-const version of that function?
14:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: Next() returns a non-const, then Next(n) should as well...
14:52:04 <__ln__> how about "const Vehicle *v = this;" if that's the only problem?
14:52:21 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: Next has two implementations
14:52:23 <__ln__> without knowing what's this related to really
14:52:27 <Rubidium> a const one and a non-const one
14:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: where?
14:53:45 <Rubidium> hmm, then it's one of the few
14:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> only Last() i see two
14:53:51 <Rubidium> that doesn't have two versions
14:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the the advantage of that, though...
15:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause> everything back to normal, i presume ;)
15:06:12 <Eddi|zuHause> except, you seem to be an hour late
15:07:21 <Belugas> becasue of the snow :)
15:07:50 <Belugas> the busses are not runnning prototypically today :)
15:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> wait... that also happens outside of berlin? :p
15:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/veh_var_access.diff
15:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> now one needs a test grf
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15:29:18 <dog> hey everybody wanted to restart with ttd but was never into the newgrf thingi can you tell me which of them are essential?
15:30:55 <dog> and if i want to get the game slowly more interresting and more complex with what do i start?
15:31:55 <Eddi|zuHause> many people prefer one that represents trains of their own country
15:32:11 <IchGuckLive> is there any information available over the ofer window (transport somthing from A toB till Time)
15:32:43 <IchGuckLive> if i do so it gives me tribble cashe
15:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause> IchGuckLive: search for "subsidy"
15:33:02 <IchGuckLive> Eddi|zuHause: on wiki ?
15:33:31 <dog> mhh damn only german signals...
15:34:03 <IchGuckLive> dog no crash on german railways
15:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> dog: try www.ttdpatch.net/newgrf
15:35:46 <planetmaker> uhm... Eddi|zuHause do you think that that URL is good advice?
15:35:51 <Eddi|zuHause> dog: those are probably the oldest (and thus most simple) grfs out there
15:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, but i don't know the coop pack address out of my head
15:36:20 <planetmaker> just download any trainset using the online content
15:36:34 <planetmaker> that's what it's for
15:37:23 <planetmaker> of course, OpenTTD's online content is embargoed by the authors who write the German vehicle newgrfs.
15:37:36 <IchGuckLive> someone in german can give me a german mean of this -> your station 'flag' needs to be within 9 tiles of the 'industry' flag.
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15:38:17 <Eddi|zuHause> IchGuckLive: that isn't true anymore in nightly version
15:39:30 <IchGuckLive> but i can not get the value how many times the revenche is out of the Subsidy window
15:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> that's in the difficulty settings
15:46:07 <IchGuckLive> is there a massage history available over all the years ?
15:46:41 <Eddi|zuHause> not over all years, but the last few messages, if you click and hold the newspaper icon on the top right
15:48:12 <IchGuckLive> i got 3 Subsidy running and one has 5times the normal pay but witch one there is no way to find it out yet
15:48:47 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you got the same line two subsidy awards?
15:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> each one adding +200%
15:49:21 <Eddi|zuHause> 100%+200%+200% = x5
15:50:06 <IchGuckLive> oh is this on the tracks that run in the stations so if i run 3tracks it gives me more revanche
15:50:21 <Yexo> one route can only have one subsidy, and even in the impossible case it would have multiple it would only get the bonus once
15:51:05 <Yexo> 5times the normal pay is not possible by a subsidy alone
15:51:24 <Yexo> depending on the subsidy multiplier setting in the difficulty window, it's *1.5, *2, *3 or *4
15:55:21 <Rubidium> actually... it is technically possible to get two the same subsidies for one route
15:55:32 <Rubidium> though it requires taking over another company
15:55:53 <Rubidium> unless the subsidy creation got changed
15:56:07 <Rubidium> and by the looks of it it did
15:56:29 <Rubidium> so.. "back" in the old days you could
16:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> so... anyone able to fulfil George's request for win32 binary?
16:08:04 <Markavian> not sure I own a 32 bit computer any more
16:08:17 <Terkhen> I don't mind compiling one; with what patch?
16:09:22 <Markavian> what does variety distribution do in terragen?
16:11:19 <Markavian> looks like it creates patches of flat area and focuses hills, making them easier to build around
16:11:53 <Terkhen> Markavian: IIRC there's a more complete explanation in the forum thread linked at the end of that wiki page
16:13:34 <Terkhen> Markavian: do you mind completing the wiki page with that info?
16:13:54 <Markavian> I was just about to start a new map on "flat" instead of "hilly" because building through hills is tiresome, but build around hills should be interesting
16:14:10 <Markavian> sure, "looks like it creates patches of flat area and focuses hills, making them easier to build around" this info?
16:15:08 <Terkhen> "looks like" does not sound as a very exact description, and IIRC it also influenced water
16:15:16 <Terkhen> besides that, sounds good
16:15:24 <Markavian> yeah, I'll rewrite it as article text
16:31:32 <Markavian> creates patches of flat area and focuses hills, making them easier to build around << updated
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16:40:06 <Markavian> yeup, much better map quality with Variety distibution - set the generator to Mountainous and it created beautiful long valleys
16:44:24 <Markavian> used to write for the Dwarf Fortress wiki
16:44:52 <Markavian> was a good learning experience
16:46:45 <Terkhen> Markavian: distrubtion <-- typo
16:46:53 <peter1138> problem is you can end up with pretty flat maps even on mountainous
16:48:15 <Markavian> peter, yes, suppose thats the point - the map still has mountains, but they're avoidable
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17:45:27 <retro> Markavian: I didn't know about that.
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18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21422 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: estonian - 6 changes by Jaanus
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:49 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 41 changes by Tucalipe
18:45:49 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by KorneySan, Lone_Wolf
18:51:11 * Eddi|zuHause misses the "failure to validate some strings" commit :/
18:53:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
18:57:34 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no translator did mess up :(
18:57:38 <Markk> What was that good for?
18:57:55 <Markk> Ah, no pong from min ping.
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20:11:18 <m2rt> Hey guys... The wiki states that one client takes 9.6kbps of network connection. The guy who hosts the server has 320kbps upload speed and 8mbps download speed. When I connect to them game the game is not smooth and I loose connection soon.
20:11:28 <m2rt> We have like 800 trains and few hundred road vehicles on it..
20:11:34 <m2rt> What can be the problem?
20:12:27 <Ammler> m2rt: that needs already a quite strong cpu
20:12:33 <Rubidium> I'd say your computer is too slow
20:12:34 <m2rt> OS: Windows 2003 Server R2 Standard Edition
20:12:34 <m2rt> RAM: DDR2 2GB @800 (dual channel interleaved)
20:12:58 <Rubidium> or the network connection is too unstable
20:13:07 <m2rt> Ah that might be it... I will try to ping the server.
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20:13:46 <Ammler> how many clients are connected?
20:14:09 <Rubidium> number of clients is generally a non-issue with network games
20:14:30 <peter1138> you tell that to my minecraft server :s
20:14:46 <Rubidium> s/network/OpenTTD network/
20:15:11 <peter1138> (110 clients was about 14 Mbps, iirc)
20:15:34 <Ammler> is that 9.6kbps still correct?
20:15:49 <Rubidium> it's 33 * (3 + TCP overhead)/s/client
20:16:02 <Rubidium> it's 33 * (7 + TCP overhead)/s/client
20:16:45 <Rubidium> and then all commands, chat and such on top of that
20:17:00 <Ammler> not normal, but should work
20:17:00 <Rubidium> that's quite a lot actually
20:17:45 <Ammler> normal is around 30-50
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20:18:36 <m2rt> Yeah... the host is in italy with a pooooor connection :P I will be the server myself then.... 100/100 connection FTW :P
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20:41:03 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21423 /trunk/src/table/ (animcursors.h sprites.h): -Codechange: replace some magic numbers by slightly less magic numbers
20:45:26 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21424 /trunk/src/order_backup.cpp: -Fix: CMD_CLEAR_ORDER_BACKUP might not get executed when the user pressed the shift key
21:05:43 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21425 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_type.h): -Codechange: add "command types" to all commands
21:08:28 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21426 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Change: introduce a setting for the types of commands that are allowed to be executed while paused
21:08:52 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21427 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_func.h): -Add: helper function to determine whether a command may be executed
21:09:52 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21428 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp lang/english.txt openttd.cpp window.cpp): -Fix [FS#4021]: vehicles could be built while the game it paused. Now you can enable or disable that with a setting
21:12:35 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21429 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_game.h network_command.cpp): -Fix [FS#3771]: the server didn't check for the paused state when allowing to execute commands
21:13:12 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21430 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp openttd.cpp window.cpp): -Feature [FS#1521]: building while paused always works in the scenario editor
21:13:47 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21431 /trunk/src/ (cheat_gui.cpp cheat_type.h lang/english.txt): -Cleanup: remove the build-while-paused cheat
21:14:15 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21432 /trunk/src/lang/ (48 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: remove the now obsolete strings as well
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21:17:36 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the side effects of build-while-paused-cheat was that the cost animation was also run during pause. how does that behave now?
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21:23:05 <SmatZ> :D instead of cleaning pavements from snow, politics want to forbid people going out
21:27:33 <frosch123> is there so much snow in prague?
21:28:52 <frosch123> hmm, the traveling guide says so :o
21:29:29 <Rubidium> refrozen snow slushy here
21:30:00 <frosch123> i thought smatz would have the same whether as me as we are about on the same latitude
21:30:17 <frosch123> i wonder whether it is due to more east, or whether prague is higher
21:30:40 <Rubidium> frosch123: he's further from the Gulf Stream, thus generally it's, in the winter, colder at his place
21:31:10 <Rubidium> just look at the snow blizards and such they had in Washington D.C. last year
21:31:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so "advertising campaign" is counted under construction actions?
21:31:38 <SmatZ> all town actions are equal
21:32:23 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: everything which does not deal with your own company property
21:32:25 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: a large plain surrounded by mountains
21:32:51 <Rubidium> Washington D.C. is roughly where the south of Spain is in Europe
21:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> weather is more dependent on wind patterns than latitude and longitude
21:33:01 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so he should have foehn ?
21:33:22 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: no, föhn is only at the edge of the mountains
21:33:43 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: my point exactly :)
21:34:18 <frosch123> prague is 250 m higher than me
21:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> 250m is also quite a lot
21:34:52 <Rubidium> so his water boils ~1 degree Celsius lower :)
21:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the boiling point isn't exaclty relevant for snowing ;)
21:36:18 <Nite_Owl> So no more 'build while paused' on the cheat menu even in single player?
21:36:39 <frosch123> no big loss actually :p
21:37:02 <Xaroth> one of the few cheats I frequently use
21:37:26 <Xaroth> i lost an industry once too often due to time passing while building :P
21:37:48 <SmatZ> I wasn't using build in pause in SP - I was just very often preesing F1 :)
21:37:48 <frosch123> noone will add it back :p
21:38:16 <SmatZ> if you started dragging track, then paused the game, you could still finish building the track
21:39:10 <Nite_Owl> So no more "your deeds will be remembered forever" nastiness for building while paused - nice
21:39:54 <frosch123> you can now cheat in multiplayer agains ais :p
21:39:55 <SmatZ> there have been several versions of that patch
21:40:03 <SmatZ> I wonder why it took so long to include in trunk :P
21:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> until we start logging all setting changes ;)
21:40:06 <Xaroth> that string should be rephrased tho
21:40:16 <Xaroth> "Your deeds will be remembered forever, or until you start a new game, whichever comes first"
21:42:16 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but... the freezing point depends on the pressure as well
21:42:24 <Rubidium> which is related to the height
21:43:00 <Rubidium> so water freezes at higher temperatures at lower pressures means that snow will remain longer in Prague
21:43:17 <frosch123> yeah, the czech need to be careful. if the pressure is to low there is no liquid beer anymore
21:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i think beer has a slightly lower freezing point than water ;)
21:44:00 <Rubidium> frosch123: they just need to make very clean beer... without nucleation points
21:44:33 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i meant like < 6 hPa :p
21:45:28 <Rubidium> after all, you can have water liquid at 1 atmosphere of pressure at -40 degree C
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21:53:08 <Nite_Owl> The new 'build while paused' code will have no effect on saved games started under the previous version?
21:54:03 <Nite_Owl> Silly question I know...
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22:35:40 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: yexo * r21433 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] a newgrf with incomplete string codes at the end of a string could cause invalid memory reads
22:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... dutch catenary looks weird with czech tunnel entrances
22:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> on the northern tunnel entrances, the catenary ends in the middle of the air
22:46:29 <Nite_Owl> Try the czech catenary...
22:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i like the dutch catenary more
22:49:43 <Suzari> I noticed an odd Z drawing bug on the opengrf tunnels x.o
22:50:00 <Suzari> probably already known, but makes me prefer the original.
22:50:21 <Eddi|zuHause> care to explain it?
22:52:36 <Suzari> When I ran OpenTTD with the OpenGRF files, I noticed trains would show partially outside the tunnel/behind the tunnel tile
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22:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that happens when the vehicle graphics are too big
22:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> some original wagons also have that problem
22:53:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i believe the ore wagon does that
22:54:58 <planetmaker> that bug recently got much less severe...
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22:57:11 <Suzari> it's not a serious bug, just something I noticed. I wondered if it was a tile size issue
22:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a general lack of 3D support issue
22:58:25 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's not like 3D support will fix this issue
22:58:29 <Rubidium> it will only make it worse
22:58:34 <Rubidium> unless you make the vehicles smaller
22:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the kind where if you fix one issue, it causes others
22:59:00 <Suzari> -nod- I did read about that, was just curious :)
22:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: dual slope landscape support, and force tunnels and bridges to minimum 2 height ;)
23:02:20 <Suzari> doing that would change the game though, since single slopes would always have to be climbed, or would the tunnel expand "above" the one slope?
23:03:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Suzari: you skipped the part where i said "dual slope [on one tile] support"
23:04:56 <Suzari> I read dual slope, I just didn't assume it would be on a single slope
23:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> technically, one-and-a-half slope should suffice
23:05:35 <Suzari> I figured you'd just use two tiles to make a doubly high slope
23:08:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the game already makes graphical cheats with one height bridges
23:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it disables the catenary on tracks underneath these
23:09:41 <Eddi|zuHause> because the bridge is 8 pixels high, but the catenary would be 11 pixels high
23:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> thus it would span above the bridge
23:11:04 <Suzari> BZzzzt. Electrocution for the train above :)
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23:34:26 <Nite_Owl> Need to feed - later all
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