IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-12-04
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07:46:16 * andythenorth wonders about industry placement during map generation
07:49:22 <andythenorth> specifically, is the order of industry types deterministic when built?
07:49:33 * andythenorth will post on forum
07:53:58 <Terkhen> IIRC Alberth explained how his patch works at the development forum
07:54:37 <supermop> i was justondering about that
08:01:22 <andythenorth> I guess alberth will turn up later :)
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08:22:46 <robotboy> gmorning planetmaker
08:37:51 <robotboy> it seems the website is back
08:38:21 <planetmaker> indeed. And hello robotboy :-)
08:38:37 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21374 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Fix: Purchases lists were not invalidated when using 'resetengines'
08:38:56 <robotboy> thankyou #openttdcoop for sugesting I check
08:39:18 <robotboy> websters rss stuff worked so I thought the site must be up
08:40:00 <robotboy> topic change required or wait?
08:40:13 * Terkhen goes back to coding :)
08:40:17 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.0.5 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | English only"
08:40:18 <Terkhen> but first I have to upload something
08:40:59 <planetmaker> topic change required, yes :-) Thanks
08:41:25 <planetmaker> and yes, webster is the coop bot, thus independent from the openttd website.
08:41:51 <robotboy> but he get's his RSS feeds from the openttd website?
08:42:13 <planetmaker> it does. But I don't know why it issued the news right then.
08:42:49 <planetmaker> hm, it was probably when it noticed the server was online again
08:43:37 <planetmaker> I don't know the frequency with which it checks
08:44:08 <robotboy> that's what I was thinking. It might have thought a new update was online after the server came back up (treating it like a new entry for some reason)
08:45:15 <robotboy> hm ingame content still fails though
08:46:10 <Terkhen> give the DNS some time, translator isn't working for me either
08:47:43 <Rubidium> planetmaker: probably because it got garbage the last time it got the news RSS
08:48:06 <Terkhen> translator is now back too :)
08:49:25 <planetmaker> game mode 1 is normal game?
08:50:07 <Rubidium> planetmaker: openttd.h
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09:09:43 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21375 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: rewrite the savegame compressors to behave more like filters
09:12:36 * andythenorth stares into the cargo class abyss
09:13:58 <andythenorth> really, BULK is 'misconceived'
09:16:45 * peter1138 fails at getting SpComb's pngtile to... well, do anything :s
09:29:24 * andythenorth searches for that vipers nest known as "ECS classes thread"
09:31:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: somewhere there was recently an announcement that ECS classes are going to change
09:32:09 <andythenorth> can't we bring him back :(
09:32:21 <andythenorth> maybe we could write a DaleBot
09:33:44 <planetmaker> hehe. He has a sharp mind and an even sharper tongue ;-)
09:34:03 <andythenorth> I liked his enforcing of standards :)
09:34:11 <planetmaker> yep, he's good at that
09:34:14 <andythenorth> and if you asked a smart question, he'd answer it
09:34:20 <andythenorth> it was like a game
09:40:19 <planetmaker> somewhere non-TTD-world
09:40:34 <planetmaker> possibly somewhere RL :-P
09:41:18 <Terkhen> I thought it was not possible to escape
09:41:21 <robotboy> last I heard, he returned to fix DOS TTDP and dissappeared again to RL
09:43:27 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21376 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: generalise ClearMemoryDumper
09:47:29 <SpComb> peter1138: note that there's like five different parts to it in the same package
09:48:34 <peter1138> a horrible mix of c and python :s
09:48:54 <SpComb> that's prototype software for you
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09:53:20 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21377 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: rewrite the savegame decompressors to behave more like filters
09:53:57 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21378 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: move the logic for reading bytes from a savegame into a class
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09:54:52 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21379 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: move the actual save code into a separate function
09:54:56 * andythenorth is wondering why it is frequently requested that trams are split from RV sets?
09:55:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it makes *somewhat* sense
09:55:17 <andythenorth> not for set authors :(
09:55:26 <planetmaker> in the same sense that e.g. main line trains and metro trains could well be different sets
09:55:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth: why not?
09:55:44 <planetmaker> IMHO it also makes sense there.
09:55:47 <andythenorth> twice the releases, twice the number of threads, twice the grfs to maintain
09:55:54 <Terkhen> poor opengfx+ trams... always getting moved between different NewGRFs
09:56:03 <andythenorth> twice as many download counts :D
09:56:13 <andythenorth> hmm there are positives to splitting the sets :P
09:56:26 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21380 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: move ThreadedSave variables to a more logical place, and move an include to the right place
09:56:30 <planetmaker> Well. It allows nicer configuration of savegames. That's the main benefit.
09:56:38 <andythenorth> in what respect?
09:57:08 <planetmaker> trams are different from trucks / busses as they're somewhat their own means of transport
09:57:19 <planetmaker> even though not openttd - internally
09:57:25 <planetmaker> it's easy to perceive them as such.
09:57:35 <planetmaker> But otoh I'd not split now HEQS trams from HEQS.
09:57:51 <andythenorth> I'd be happy to add parameters to on/off groups of vehicles
09:57:57 <andythenorth> I'd have no problem with that idea
09:58:01 <planetmaker> Maybe that's a nice idea
09:58:28 <andythenorth> I considered it before. As the bulldozers are mostly pointless :P
09:58:34 <planetmaker> it'd satisfy nearly all needs - except configuring costs for trucks and trams separately ;-)
09:58:59 <andythenorth> that could be action D or cb
09:59:28 <planetmaker> though it's harder to balance it that way. MUCH
10:00:06 <andythenorth> if there were a lot of industrial trams in HEQS, I'd consider a split
10:00:12 <andythenorth> which might happen in future
10:00:31 <andythenorth> for example...if rv-wagons was available :D
10:01:01 * Terkhen should stop being lazy and finish the partial refit patch
10:01:25 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, that's the point. There's not too many trams yet. That's why I would not (yet) bother with a split
10:01:40 <planetmaker> when there's like 10 or so... it might be worth it.
10:01:52 <planetmaker> same goes for OpenGFX+RV.
10:02:01 <planetmaker> Three trams don't warrant its own newgrf IMHO
10:02:53 <planetmaker> it's ITS. Its trams itch :-P
10:04:46 <Terkhen> I thought the I stood for Industrial
10:06:09 <Terkhen> andythenorth: check the closing comments of the openttd task
10:08:01 * andythenorth is none the wiser at this point
10:08:43 * andythenorth leaves the ticket open
10:08:44 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21381 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix (r21377,r21375): some compilers have to spoil the fun...
10:09:07 * Rubidium wonders what FS#1685 and FS#4172 have to do with eachother
10:09:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it can't. It needs implementation in the strings. Also in the English ones.
10:09:55 <planetmaker> It's within OpenTTD, but not yet within FIRS
10:11:31 *** planetmaker sets mode: +b *!*@41.234.202.42
10:11:52 <andythenorth> so I need to update FIRS...
10:12:24 <Terkhen> and all the translations :/
10:12:35 <andythenorth> can wait I guess
10:12:58 <planetmaker> you can achieve a first there
10:13:32 <andythenorth> ¿I don't want to make my brain understand the issue today?
10:14:39 <andythenorth> FIRS 0.6 is going to cause savegame breakage
10:14:46 <andythenorth> I said I wouldn't do that again for a while
10:14:58 <andythenorth> should I put off the breakage, or just get it done?
10:17:33 <andythenorth> I have certain industry question for you
10:17:39 <andythenorth> it's in the newgrf dev forum
10:18:23 <Alberth> you don't have a version number scheme where a user can see whether updating will break the savegame?
10:20:40 <Ammler> welcome back openttd.org o/
10:23:34 <Ammler> every main version isn't compatible with other main version, so this should be clear
10:23:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: thanks for reply :)
10:24:18 <andythenorth> do we have a version number scheme?
10:24:30 <andythenorth> I'm confused about grfid vs. action 14 versions
10:24:32 <Alberth> Ammler: so far, it is more: every version is not compatible with every other version :)
10:24:58 <Alberth> (which is not a problem imho)
10:27:30 <Ammler> Alberth: because there was no min_compatible_version?
10:28:34 <Alberth> that is only about making such information available to the machine, nothing more.
10:28:55 <Ammler> andythenorth: you don't change the GRFID anymore, if the newgrf gets incompatible, you simply change min_compatible_version to the current rev
10:29:25 <andythenorth> ok, I should update tickets for that
10:30:05 <Ammler> you can do that while dev...
10:39:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I guess a huge part of that was already fixed by Alberth with the industry placement / minimum number rework
10:40:09 <planetmaker> it would just need testing again, I think
10:40:11 <andythenorth> remains an issue for claypit and quarry
10:40:16 <andythenorth> due to size and need for flat land
10:40:32 <andythenorth> an error of thinking by me :P
10:40:57 <planetmaker> provide smaller versions of both ;-)
10:41:19 <planetmaker> maybe the smaller versions have lower output (initially)
10:41:28 <andythenorth> dredging site will address 2 out of 3 problems
10:42:11 <Alberth> provide ability of industry to explain what tile layout it needs so we can do terra-forming at site :)
10:42:42 <andythenorth> that would mean extending newgrf spec quite somewhat
10:43:18 <andythenorth> a cb, which checks layout number
10:43:29 <andythenorth> and returns a bit-stuffed value for each tile, giving slope data
10:43:54 <Alberth> just a simple array of layouts would do, wouldn't it?
10:44:05 <andythenorth> needs to encode tile slope info?
10:44:38 <Alberth> now the newgrf needs to check tile slopes itself, right?
10:45:02 <andythenorth> which is putting me right off drawing a quarry
10:45:35 <Alberth> does that make sense?
10:46:13 <Alberth> I know it is nicely generic and stuff, but isn't it way too complicated for a newgrf to do?
10:47:49 <Terkhen> it might make more sense to attach that info to each layout and let OpenTTD take care of it
10:50:07 <andythenorth> if I do draw a quarry, I'm going to have to check slopes in great detail with cb22...
10:50:19 <andythenorth> which is mostly going to return "don't build here"
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11:01:33 <Alberth> if you up a level, and devise a format and write a generator that generates nfo, you're done for all industries much faster :p
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11:19:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: sounds like nml :P
11:20:06 <Alberth> sounds like a pattern that does not belong in nfo :)
11:28:32 * andythenorth is open to solutions :)
11:29:54 * Alberth goes into andy, and buys a solution
11:30:46 <andythenorth> I have considered a totally modular quarry, but I'd need to draw about 81 different tile sprites for it
11:32:16 <Alberth> drawing sprites is the most difficult part?
11:33:26 <Alberth> (I am quite sure that a layout checking generator can be written, I just don't have a clue what its input is, and how to decide what to generate)
11:34:35 <Alberth> but changing the newgrf spec to have such information instead would be better imho.
11:34:47 <Alberth> do we also need that for newgrf airports?
11:43:24 <andythenorth> drawing sprites for many different slope configurations is difficult
12:03:36 <Alberth> which you solve by making a lot of layouts?
12:04:39 <frosch123> how can that be solved in newgrf specs? :o every tile is different
12:05:54 <frosch123> i guess you rather need some preprocessor / nml stuff to generate the layouts for the cases you need
12:05:55 <Alberth> (11:42:58) Alberth: provide ability of industry to explain what tile layout it needs so we (Edit: we = OpenTTD) can do terra-forming at site :)
12:06:18 <frosch123> oh, terraforming :)
12:08:13 <frosch123> in that case: airports need to display a preview shape including slopes
12:08:13 <Alberth> in particular, adding that information to a layout
12:08:37 <frosch123> the old richk branch tried that, though failed quite
12:09:44 <frosch123> i guess every tile in the layout would need some flags for a certain slope, or for a range of slopes
12:10:11 <frosch123> like: at least SLOPE_N, at max SLOPE_ENW
12:10:18 <Alberth> just a map of relative heights of other grid points?
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12:10:56 <frosch123> Alberth: that's what richk did, but it fails as you need (n+1)x(n+1) points for n x n tiles
12:11:05 <frosch123> also it makes the slope totally fixed
12:11:50 <frosch123> while is is quite likely that you only want fixed slopes in some parts of the layout, while other parts do not matter
12:12:08 <frosch123> (like flat slope for some buildings, but not inbetween the buildings)
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12:12:21 <Alberth> ie you want some height interval
12:12:39 <frosch123> yes, but i guess slope works better than height
12:18:10 <Alberth> slopes seem much more complicated to understand, but maybe it is just because of /me not accustomed to thinking in slopes
12:19:35 *** George|2 is now known as George
12:21:32 <frosch123> Alberth: basically you set the relative height of the corners of every tile. (every corner gets a range 0-2, 0-1, 1-2, 0-0, 1-1, 2-2)
12:22:01 <frosch123> if you have dependencies accross multiple tiles you have to fix some corners in the middle though
12:22:22 <frosch123> (those corners which are not visible anyway after construction)
12:22:29 <Alberth> yeah, what worries me is when you move further than a single tile.
12:23:31 <frosch123> well, firs and ecs have a lot of testcases for interesting slope requirements
12:23:44 <frosch123> ecs with the weird castles and stuff, firs with disjoint buildings
12:24:03 <frosch123> so, i guess a system which can handle those, should be fine :)
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13:08:27 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21382 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Fix (r21153) [FS#4290]: the road vehicle's frame wasn't properly set upon savegame conversion *if* the vehicle would be hidden, but isn't going to be hidden anymore after the conversion
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14:48:45 * andythenorth returns with questions about slope terraforming
14:48:57 <andythenorth> like...is it a viable project?
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14:51:37 * planetmaker likes to ask andythenorth about HEQS 1.0.0... ;-)
14:52:00 <frosch123> the spec is likely the hardest :)
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14:52:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I think the costs work....I need to check again
14:52:55 <andythenorth> the default seems to be 1/512?
14:53:01 <andythenorth> can the default be 'default'
14:53:17 <planetmaker> did you check today?
14:53:31 <planetmaker> don't use a game where it is already added
14:53:37 <planetmaker> start a new one and add it anew
14:53:51 <planetmaker> e.g. don't use an old newgrf list
14:53:58 <andythenorth> I'll test and release later :)
14:54:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: how would it terraform?
14:54:17 <planetmaker> dunno. Prices are now somthing between 20k and 100k. looks like a lot
14:54:43 <andythenorth> start at the N tile and work out?
14:55:20 <frosch123> andythenorth: it starts at the current random location, then compares the current slope to the required one, bails out if too many differences, and then terraforms
14:55:39 <frosch123> current code already terraforms to level land if the industry is build on flat land
14:56:05 <andythenorth> so it it was something like an even slope, not too hard?
14:56:12 <andythenorth> but a complicated shape....likely to fail?
14:56:22 <frosch123> the harder part is: the spec must provide the information for the slope to terraform, some preview for the player and the ais
14:56:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: hmm, why should the slope make a difference?
14:56:55 <andythenorth> does the spec need to encode only relative slopes, or relative slopes + relative heights
14:57:14 <andythenorth> (slope probably makes no difference)
14:58:12 <andythenorth> so there's already some bit-stuffing scheme for slope data....that could be reused?
14:58:43 <andythenorth> e.g. industry var 60
14:59:16 <frosch123> maybe, i am not sure whether it is enough to provide a fixed slope
14:59:32 <frosch123> or whether there should be a range of allowed slope
15:00:14 <andythenorth> we'd allow it to check other crap like water tile etc when terraforming?
15:00:21 <andythenorth> or is that already handled by terraforming code?
15:00:27 <andythenorth> I'm not sure what my question is :P
15:02:36 <frosch123> i rather thought about leaving cb 28 and 2f as is, and maybe return some slope suggestion in cb 2f or a new similar callback
15:03:16 <frosch123> i see definitely a requirement for defining fixed slopes for some tiles, but no restrictions for other tiles of the same layout
15:03:25 <frosch123> i am not sure about stuff inbetween
15:03:29 <andythenorth> could the existing layout definitions have additional bytes?
15:03:56 <frosch123> like: all slopes except steep, all slopes as long as north corner is high...
15:04:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: you cannot extent a property, you can only add a new property
15:04:42 <andythenorth> already editing layouts means changes in two places
15:04:57 <andythenorth> adding a third is not cricket :P
15:05:16 <frosch123> hmm, otoh the layout property has some space for extentions
15:05:44 <frosch123> like "0xFD,W -> slope restriction for following tile definition" or so
15:08:16 <andythenorth> so....there are four tile corners?
15:08:26 <andythenorth> and the slope is define by their position relative to each other?
15:08:37 <andythenorth> higher / lower / 2x higher / 2x lower
15:08:51 <frosch123> the slope is defined by the height of ther corners relative to the lowest corner
15:09:25 * andythenorth looks for problems with this
15:09:31 <andythenorth> doesn't see any so far :o
15:09:51 <andythenorth> what am I missing?
15:09:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: fixed slope is easy, but i doubt it is sufficient :p
15:10:20 * andythenorth tries to model a slope in head
15:10:28 <andythenorth> is it enough to know the slope of each tile?
15:10:39 <andythenorth> do we need to know slope of neighbouring tile?
15:10:46 <andythenorth> or does newgrf author just work that out
15:10:52 <andythenorth> there are only so many valid combinations
15:11:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: imagine you have a industry with two buildings
15:11:19 <andythenorth> and a gap between...
15:11:37 <frosch123> each building shall be on leveled foundations, so the max height of the tiles within each building must be the same
15:11:52 <frosch123> on the roadside of the building no slopes are allowed
15:12:04 <andythenorth> it's a head-scratching problem :o
15:12:05 <frosch123> the relative height difference of the buildings does not matter
15:12:40 <andythenorth> it might if there's some piece of graphic joining them
15:12:44 <andythenorth> like in FIRS stockyard
15:12:46 <frosch123> if the height difference between the buildings matters one might put a 0xFF (empty tile) between them to restrict the slope there
15:14:38 <frosch123> or take a forest: a house with flat slope, some trees with any slope, and some roads between the trees with flat slope or inclined slope along the road direction
15:15:11 <andythenorth> specifying rules for that makes my brain ache :P
15:15:24 <andythenorth> but it can't be much harder than using cb2f and var 60?
15:15:32 <andythenorth> for newgrf author?
15:15:41 <andythenorth> using cb2f and var60 makes my brain ache :P
15:15:54 <frosch123> or a vine yard: most tiles slope, but not necessarily all, but defintely all slopes in the same direction :p
15:16:15 <andythenorth> partial terraforming seems overkill
15:16:33 <andythenorth> either newgrf author specifies exact slope requirement, or they don't make things requiring terraforming
15:17:25 <frosch123> so: exact slope, or no restriction (except maybe yes/no from cb 2f)
15:17:51 <andythenorth> exact slope if terraforming
15:18:05 <frosch123> otoh, cb 2f would only get the slope before terraforming, so quite useless
15:18:24 <frosch123> andythenorth: but terraforming should be defined on a per tile basis
15:21:33 <andythenorth> this seems difficult :)
15:22:22 <frosch123> maybe just fixed slope per tile, a special value for "all non-steep slopes" and "any slope" in case nothing is defined for the tile
15:24:09 <andythenorth> what does the terraforming routine do with 'any slope'?
15:26:42 <frosch123> except implied by neighboured tiles
15:27:45 <andythenorth> what could possibly go wrong? :P
15:31:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it looks like the default costs are 4x too high
15:31:42 <andythenorth> which, based on code, I don't understand :o
15:31:49 <andythenorth> I said use 0A, you've used 0A
15:32:23 <frosch123> different difficulty settings?
15:32:36 <andythenorth> mine haven't changed ;)
15:35:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: with running costs low, Mt. Mckinley truck costs £7875, and run cost is £862
15:35:50 <andythenorth> in tip, it's £31500 cost
15:36:00 <andythenorth> so I guess multiplier is just 4x too high
15:36:12 <andythenorth> I don't understand all of cost-setting code though
15:38:35 <planetmaker> it's pretty dump and simple actually: set the parameters to 09 if not defined
15:41:11 <planetmaker> hm, how do you get 31500? I get 47250GBP?
15:41:55 <planetmaker> I set it to low as andy said
15:42:36 <andythenorth> curioser and curioser
15:42:44 * andythenorth wonders if ottd has cached values
15:42:52 <planetmaker> and you have easy
15:43:03 <planetmaker> so custom 'low' is higher than easy
15:43:07 <andythenorth> mine's on custom
15:43:09 <planetmaker> which it shouldn't
15:43:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: something odd
15:44:12 <andythenorth> I have adjusted all 6 places values are set in heqs_header.pnfo
15:44:18 <andythenorth> they haven't changed in game :P
15:44:27 <andythenorth> something is screwy my end
15:44:39 <planetmaker> hm, not necessarily
15:45:01 <planetmaker> yes. heqs_header.pnfo doesn't define it...
15:45:07 <planetmaker> it's in initialization.pnfo
15:45:36 <andythenorth> so it's also in heqs_header.pnfo...
15:45:41 <planetmaker> oh... that's where it is fishy then :-P
15:45:41 <andythenorth> is that file deprecated?
15:45:58 <andythenorth> it appears to be
15:45:58 <planetmaker> not quite. But it should not define costs
15:46:14 <andythenorth> it's not included by heqs.pnfo
15:46:38 <planetmaker> right. Then I forgot to delete it :-)
15:50:15 <andythenorth> adding \d0 produces £3937 cost
15:50:23 <andythenorth> adding \d1 produces the £31k cost
15:50:36 <andythenorth> seems like it's raising by 10x
15:53:38 <andythenorth> what are the action 6 doing?
15:54:02 <planetmaker> when we change lines 114 and 115 to \d0 instead of \d1 the costs seem to be cut by 8
15:54:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth: they modify the following. I.e. writing the actual desired values to the sprite which modifies the costs
15:59:27 <planetmaker> hm... I damn don't see where it goes wrong
16:00:24 <frosch123> planetmaker: a grf is loaded in multiple stages
16:00:30 <frosch123> so you increment is executed multiple times
16:01:03 <planetmaker> uhm... so it applies _each_ time?!
16:01:24 <frosch123> yes, there is a non-big non-red warning in the newgrf wiki :p
16:02:00 <frosch123> planetmaker: solution, do not increment a register, but copy it to another one while adding 1
16:02:07 <Hirundo> modifying user-set parameters is basically a no-go
16:02:22 <planetmaker> well. That doesn't change the issue, Hirundo
16:02:31 <planetmaker> I initially had it that way
16:02:48 <planetmaker> then cleaned up, cut away 15 lines and modify the intial parameters
16:03:09 <planetmaker> frosch123: got the link for that?
16:04:00 <Hirundo> "Note that parameters are never reset after the game has started, therefore you must not modify newgrf(w).cfg parameters with any kind of irreversible operation. It is valid to, for example, add a value to a parameter only if the same value is later subtracted, to keep the parameter the same across loading or starting several games."
16:04:16 <frosch123> just wanted to quote that :)
16:07:09 * Hirundo feels the procedure described there is unnecessarily complicated
16:07:38 <frosch123> it likely uses a minimal amount of registers or so :p
16:09:59 <planetmaker> hm... helau to the intracacies. Thanks frosch123 and Hirundo. I guess I'll have another go and I'll give another toast on NML
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16:20:28 <andythenorth> peter1138: any more perlin porn?
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18:21:38 <andythenorth> so classes have to be cargo related, not vehicle related
18:21:50 <andythenorth> but vehicle set authors don't see it that way
18:22:20 <andythenorth> vehicle set authors think classes are there to help them provide correct vehicles
18:22:41 <planetmaker> they do. When they're cargo-related
18:23:33 <planetmaker> that doesn't make your argument invalid. Though I don't quite follow to see the need for such class
18:23:41 <planetmaker> Rather then maybe a powder class
18:23:42 <andythenorth> maybe I can combine existing classes somehow
18:27:02 <planetmaker> well. There's no means to find a suitable vehicle type for these small-grain stuff which is "blown" - like grain, fertilizer
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18:27:54 <b_jonas> isn't fertilizer transported in plastic bags?
18:28:24 <planetmaker> yeah. For those people who buy it in order to fertilize 2m^2 of lawn or two pot plants
18:29:16 <planetmaker> that's for those with 20m^2
18:29:25 <planetmaker> farmers by it by the wagon loads
18:31:08 <andythenorth> maybe I can define cargo classes for things like scrap as e.g. piece goods && bulk,
18:31:15 <andythenorth> then maybe persuade all vehicle set authors to use property 29 or equivalent appropriately
18:31:17 <b_jonas> can an industry produce different outputs depending on which input cargo it gets?
18:31:34 <andythenorth> seems to me the burden falls on me to go persuade all vehicle set authros
18:31:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't consider that necessary...
18:31:44 <andythenorth> meanwhile I get the bug reports
18:31:49 <andythenorth> or feature requests
18:31:51 <planetmaker> and honestly: Please don't
18:32:08 <planetmaker> you mess up all existing tuning Terkhen and I did in that respect
18:32:16 <andythenorth> seems to me classes are a broken concept :P
18:32:20 <andythenorth> due to who controls them
18:32:31 <planetmaker> They are just not a concept to change once the cargo is defined
18:32:51 <planetmaker> And then it's not *that* important
18:33:13 <planetmaker> As most cargos can be considered to be part of more than one. Like you said, scrap metal
18:34:03 <andythenorth> well scrap metal is currently piece goods, and that's the slightly broken solution I've stuck with
18:34:38 <andythenorth> as it's the best of bad options
18:34:48 <andythenorth> I'm going to change various other cargos to suit
18:36:46 <planetmaker> re-defining all cargo classes again?!
18:37:27 <andythenorth> I kind of need to
18:37:43 <andythenorth> for various reasons
18:37:44 <planetmaker> why do you "need to"?
18:37:57 <b_jonas> you mean add more cargo flags but also keep the old ones?
18:37:59 <andythenorth> bad vehicle support
18:38:36 <andythenorth> fibre crops don't travel by hopper
18:38:37 <planetmaker> well. Thank you then :-(
18:38:47 <b_jonas> I mean, add more cargo flags, keep the old ones, but possibly mark some of the old flags as obsolate?
18:38:47 <andythenorth> wool is being changed by mb
18:38:52 <andythenorth> goods is not compliant with spec
18:39:24 <planetmaker> I don't appreciate his decreed changes either
18:39:50 <andythenorth> sugar cane shouldn't travel by hopper
18:39:55 <andythenorth> so two from me, two from mb
18:40:01 <planetmaker> I honestly don't feel like unwrapping the refit lists which I especially spent on FIRS support most of the time again
18:40:07 <planetmaker> Especially without a real need
18:40:22 <planetmaker> why shouldn't it?
18:40:30 <planetmaker> how do you think it'd be transported?
18:40:46 <andythenorth> travels by cane wagon (don't exist), or by gondola
18:41:11 <planetmaker> so what's the difference between those and bulk?
18:41:17 <planetmaker> honestly... don't
18:41:46 <planetmaker> if you keep changing especially cargos like this - you'll _never_ have vehicle support
18:42:04 <planetmaker> and _always_ bad cases
18:42:15 <planetmaker> as people then _never_ can fix their refit masks
18:42:34 <planetmaker> but do what you must
18:42:53 <planetmaker> but rotating things around is not helpful
18:42:54 <andythenorth> I could be talked out of some of it
18:43:06 <andythenorth> what about when we made mistakes with defining classes?
18:43:07 <b_jonas> but you don't have to change anything, you only have to _add_ new flags
18:43:15 <andythenorth> and when I know some authors won't change for FIRS
18:43:16 <planetmaker> Well. I spent days to get things right with FIRS. Guess my POV
18:43:30 <planetmaker> and to get it right for all other sets, too
18:43:35 <b_jonas> perhaps each flag should be three-state: yes, know, cargo module doesn't tell
18:44:02 * andythenorth should experiment with more sets to see what actual case is
18:44:10 <b_jonas> and then the vehicle modules could decide intelligently, using the more specific or better flags if they're defined, using the older but more supported flags if they're not
18:44:11 <planetmaker> don't become a mb-like "I change these things just because it's good"
18:44:29 <andythenorth> b_jonas: that's what ECS does
18:44:58 <b_jonas> sure, even then adding too many different flags could be wrong because then the cargo authors won't know what to define
18:45:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you used explicit cargo checks, or just classes?
18:45:25 <planetmaker> "... and because my favourite set then does need no single change"
18:45:37 <b_jonas> but you can have quite a few flags before that, because defining new industry sets _is_ supposed to be more difficult than defining new vehicles
18:45:40 <planetmaker> it's a delicate balance
18:45:47 <planetmaker> which unravels, if things change
18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21383 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: belarusian - 7 changes by KorneySan
18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by marek995
18:45:50 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by norbert79
18:45:51 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: russian - 6 changes by KorneySan
18:45:51 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: slovak - 1 changes by marek995
18:46:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I believe 4 cargos have changes indicated currently
18:46:26 <andythenorth> I could look what impact that would have on your set?
18:46:38 <b_jonas> maybe there could also be general derivation rules (which are in neither the industry set nor the vehicle sets) that guess some flags from some other flags
18:47:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but then you need to check for changes with ALL climates, PBI, ECS (all vectors) and FIRS
18:47:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I could also just belay the issue by bouncing the tickets to a later release :P
18:47:26 <andythenorth> but somehow that seems worse
18:47:30 <andythenorth> or I could reject them
18:47:43 <planetmaker> that's what I argue for. Good is fine. That exists.
18:47:49 <b_jonas> also, I for one would more like to have more choices of better vehicle sets than more choices of alternate industry sets
18:47:51 <planetmaker> But the other cargos...
18:48:23 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21384 /trunk/src/lang/slovak.txt: -Fix: failure of WT3 to properly validate some string...
18:48:26 <Alberth> b_jonas: so make a better vehicle set?
18:49:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so I'm left canvassing vehicle set authors for FIRS specific support, because *I* released set with classes defined wrong :o
18:50:06 <andythenorth> there are bigger problems in the world
18:50:13 <andythenorth> but obsession is what makes our work good :)
18:51:06 <planetmaker> how are the classes 'wrong'?
18:51:57 <planetmaker> what is right? The one-and-only interpretation, the one who may just change things without discussion and expect that all people will appreciate?
18:52:16 <planetmaker> (while all others are of course don't have that right)
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18:53:17 <planetmaker> (I don't mean you, here ;-) )
18:53:39 <planetmaker> but let's see, what is your suggestion to change? Goods: piece -> express. What else?
18:53:57 <planetmaker> that's unproblematic, as other sets use the express definition already.
18:54:04 <planetmaker> also default cargos
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18:54:42 <planetmaker> scrap metal... is not defined anywhere else. I'd not change that.
18:55:05 <planetmaker> defining it as piece goods is ok. If you think of compressed vehicles
18:55:10 <b_jonas> how are goods express? even mobile phones don't get obsolate in half a year.
18:55:22 <planetmaker> b_jonas: ask Chris Sawyer
18:55:40 <b_jonas> yes, the other one I don't get is rubber
18:55:49 <b_jonas> maybe it gets hard or something
18:56:51 <planetmaker> hm, I guess CS has nothing to do with it. Ask the inventors of that spec.
18:57:17 <b_jonas> it's CS who defined which cargo has its price fall how fast in the original sets
19:05:07 <planetmaker> uhm, andythenorth are all those supplies really (already) express goods?
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19:16:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth: and for the FIRS-specific cargos special support is anyway needed, if it's not supposed to look boring
19:19:20 <Terkhen> hmm... changing the refit scheme again would be quite boring :P
19:39:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes, supplies are already express goods
19:39:49 <andythenorth> it was the only way to get sane AV8 support - Pikka was fairly insisteny
19:40:13 <andythenorth> scrap metal is already piece goods
19:40:30 <planetmaker> nothing wrong with that
19:40:41 <planetmaker> but no need to change
19:41:11 <andythenorth> plant fibres is 'bulk piece'
19:41:20 <andythenorth> and should be just piece, but....whatever
19:41:42 <andythenorth> because it shouldn't travel by coal / ore hopper
19:41:43 <planetmaker> straw certainly is not only piece goods.
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19:42:45 <planetmaker> I think it can well be bulk
19:46:45 <planetmaker> or you must much more urgently make the distinction between corn and coal. They also go not into the same wagon
19:46:50 <planetmaker> They're refit after all
19:47:15 * andythenorth experiments with other vehicle sets
19:49:51 <orudge> Ammler: the content has nothing to do with me, ask Rubidium or TrueBrain or someone ;)
19:49:58 * andythenorth can't draw any conclusion from testing with other vehicle sets
19:50:12 <andythenorth> I have HEQS problems, but I can fix those
19:50:17 <andythenorth> it's mostly Pikka sets
19:50:19 <Ammler> oh, thought that mirror.html is from the mirror :-)
19:50:26 <andythenorth> I don't pay much attention to Canset 1.0 or US Set
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19:51:36 <Rubidium> orudge: I fear that the mirror script will overwrite your changes
19:52:33 <orudge> well, in that case, if you could add
19:52:43 <orudge> to the <a> tag, that would be useful :)
19:52:50 <orudge> I've done so on my server
19:54:05 <Rubidium> oh, the rsync script doesn't push already existing mirror.htmls :)
19:56:24 <andythenorth> endless new cargos to add to FIRS
19:56:38 <andythenorth> why don't we have coffee in FIRS? :P
19:56:58 <planetmaker> though they don't have all types of cargos...
19:57:12 <andythenorth> definitely a slot free in FIRS for that
19:57:25 <andythenorth> seal oil might cause some problems with animal lovers
19:58:12 <planetmaker> nah. If we ignore PC, we should add whale meat :-)
19:58:12 <andythenorth> => building materials
19:58:25 <andythenorth> roofing felt is what, paper, tar, stone chips?
19:58:26 <planetmaker> or whales -> food + oil
19:58:43 <planetmaker> + fibres probably, too etc pp ;-)
19:58:57 <andythenorth> major cargo carpets
19:59:05 <andythenorth> what a fun site :D
19:59:37 <Rubidium> only from far away, by boats for loads of money!
20:00:05 * andythenorth wonders meanwhile about possibility of persuading pikka to update his sets for FIRS
20:00:11 <andythenorth> not bloody likely is my guess
20:01:32 <planetmaker> why do you consider that unlikely?
20:07:46 <andythenorth> because Pikka has indicated he's not interested in that?
20:07:54 <andythenorth> his view is 'use classes correctly'
20:11:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: scrap metal won't affect you
20:11:31 <andythenorth> what about wool?
20:11:54 <andythenorth> adds 'covered sheltered'
20:12:27 <planetmaker> I don't mind that, I guess
20:12:38 <planetmaker> I don't care about that class so far
20:12:47 <andythenorth> I don't understand whether classes AND or XOR or whatever
20:13:27 <planetmaker> A cargo can have more than one, it's and there.
20:13:56 <planetmaker> But a vehicle uses (pos. classes) and NOT (neg. classes) XOR (explicit cargos)
20:14:12 <andythenorth> that's how I do it in FIRS
20:14:20 <andythenorth> but it's a while since I set it up so I forget
20:14:35 <Terkhen> yes, it's kind of confusing :)
20:14:46 <andythenorth> someone suggested a better way
20:14:50 <planetmaker> IIRC Terkhen and I don't yet make use of covered anywhere, neither negative nor positive, so it does us no harm
20:15:11 <Terkhen> I did not even know that covered existed, so you are probably right
20:15:22 <andythenorth> it was added by someone
20:15:29 <andythenorth> the man who controls ECS :P
20:15:48 <Terkhen> I'm still wondering who added rockets and uranium, or electricity
20:15:49 <andythenorth> but of course 'covered' isn't vehicle specific, that's definitely only an attribute of the cargo :
20:15:50 <planetmaker> sheltered / covered exists for years, so it's not new. Adding it to those cargos... well.
20:16:19 <andythenorth> making it piece goods instead of bulk
20:16:40 <Terkhen> base sets have always transported "cereals" uncovered
20:16:48 <b_jonas> why, covered presumably affects also how the cargo has to be stored in a warehouse, not only how it's transported
20:17:00 <planetmaker> I'd like to keep fibre crops as is
20:17:16 <planetmaker> even if bales is the usual way to transport them
20:17:21 <b_jonas> Terkhen: and that makes sense, because you have to be able to easily tell your grain trucks from your livestock trucks so you can count them
20:17:27 <planetmaker> you can even argue they're hazardous
20:17:28 <b_jonas> and the grain and livestock cars on a train
20:17:38 <planetmaker> as some of them carry the risk of self-ignition
20:17:44 <b_jonas> you don't always want realism
20:17:46 <Terkhen> that's my point... why the change?
20:18:03 * Terkhen shall leave it uncovered
20:18:18 <Terkhen> unless grain, maize and wheat are changed too
20:18:36 <planetmaker> nah. It will not look better. It will just satisfy realism-fanatists
20:18:43 <planetmaker> it will look worse
20:18:45 <andythenorth> so of the 4 FIRS changes planned, only fibre-crops is controversial?
20:19:05 <b_jonas> there are few cargos you actually transport uncovered irl, but it gives a nice way to distinguish them so we should use it more in the game
20:19:11 * Terkhen wonders what will realism-fanatics think when they try ogfx-rv and find that most cargos appear as coal or wood
20:19:25 <b_jonas> especially as on an uncovered wagon you can see what's transported and how much the wagon is filled or empty
20:19:30 <andythenorth> grain change, far as I know, is intended to make it easy to allow grain in covered hoppers, but not mineral hoppers
20:19:36 <andythenorth> but I'm far from certain
20:19:36 <b_jonas> look at the wood wagon for example
20:19:38 <Terkhen> b_jonas: I completely agree, it makes sense to show the cargo
20:19:48 <Terkhen> both for knowing what you are transporting, and if the vehicle is loaded or not
20:20:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: grain changes?!
20:20:10 <b_jonas> the openttd graphics set does this quite nice, especially with goods
20:20:36 <planetmaker> na, grain remains
20:20:53 <Terkhen> yet another cargo identical to maize, grain and wheat
20:20:59 <andythenorth> grain changes in ECS, or did I misread it?
20:21:00 <planetmaker> I'll continue to treat cereals as grain
20:21:09 <andythenorth> grain no change in FIRS
20:21:25 <Terkhen> andythenorth: in ECS, "cereals" fulfill the same role than grain/maize/wheat, but it is a different cargo
20:21:27 <planetmaker> If George / mb want to break it - let them.
20:21:27 <andythenorth> most everyone seems to support grain correctly as it's an original cargo
20:21:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Alberth
20:21:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v DorpsGek
20:21:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
20:21:54 <andythenorth> it's ok he can claim vehicle sets are not in compliance with spec :D
20:22:14 <b_jonas> is it raw cereals, or breakfast cereals (processed food product)?
20:22:29 <planetmaker> they're directly harvested in ECS
20:22:37 <planetmaker> by the cornflakes harvester :-P
20:22:44 <andythenorth> there's one in HEQS
20:23:04 <b_jonas> we should ditch realism and transfer everything in open or transparent wagons
20:23:05 <andythenorth> so fibre crops is controversial
20:23:07 <Terkhen> what happens if you deliver maize to a power plant or a steel mill?
20:23:17 <b_jonas> water and oil in transparent containers,
20:23:20 <andythenorth> you get popcorn of course
20:23:28 <b_jonas> livestock in circus cages
20:23:37 <planetmaker> b_jonas: that's somewhat a goal for the OpenGFX+ things. Though not everything open, but then the wagons will have different paintings. Hopefully
20:23:41 <andythenorth> egrvts has livestock as milk churns
20:23:41 <b_jonas> grain the way it currently is, with cargo up on the open
20:24:01 <b_jonas> of course, the color of the company should also be prominent
20:24:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: just leave raw sugar and fibre crops. Nothing wrong with them in bulk...
20:24:11 <planetmaker> Realism doesn't always rule
20:24:13 <b_jonas> gold and valuables should be yellow or green
20:24:19 <planetmaker> It's for those without phantasy
20:24:37 <andythenorth> there's no point posting screenshots to try and persuade you?
20:25:07 <b_jonas> goods and food in nice colored packages
20:25:18 <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ trains also has very nice sprites for the tank wagons that clearly show the cargo being transported
20:25:30 <planetmaker> for coke, yes :-)
20:25:50 <planetmaker> well, others just have the same for loaded and empty, but yes
20:25:58 <b_jonas> and I don't care if the people get cold, I want to see the passengers too
20:26:13 <b_jonas> maybe light up the window of the wagons when someone travels in them
20:26:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth: in what respect? That bulk must not transport fibre crops and sugar cane?
20:26:23 <planetmaker> How will that look bad? Hard to imagine...
20:26:51 <b_jonas> an open "armored car" might sound stupid, but who cares? it's armored as in bikini chainmail.
20:27:45 <planetmaker> bikini chainmail: loool :-) I'd love to see that, I guess ;-)
20:28:27 <George> planetmake: If George / mb want to break it - let them. -> Cargo classes is the question for Michael. Could you please contact him if you have any questions about ECS cargo classes
20:28:57 <andythenorth> george you had enough cargo class discussions? :D
20:29:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I've only really got realism as an argument
20:29:29 <andythenorth> if you're disallowing that, I have nothing :P
20:30:00 <Terkhen> b_jonas: we should ban you for linking to that time sink
20:30:25 <b_jonas> Terkhen: I put a warning in
20:30:35 <Terkhen> without warning it would be a permban :P
20:30:51 <George> andythenorth: Not much. Classes are mostly a Mivhael's question. He had more of them with other sets devs too
20:30:52 <Terkhen> the first time I lost 2 days IIRC
20:30:59 <b_jonas> we should ban the whole channel for the game is a timesink
20:31:22 <b_jonas> okay, maybe it's not the slowest game ever, for some Settlers games are slower
20:31:39 <Terkhen> yes, openttd can also steal a lot of time
20:32:10 <b_jonas> I store most of my bookmarks on a webpage, and I have warnings for the few most addictive sites for this reason
20:34:15 <planetmaker> George: in any case I find that change... well... interesting. Adding 'covered' though is not a too big change I guess. But it certainly would IMHO have warranted at least some discussion in the NewGRF development forum
20:34:44 <planetmaker> As you might break some vehicle sets. Others which are those who mb probably has not on his personal favourism list
20:35:23 <planetmaker> especially as he's very adamant on discussing every other change to *whatever* where he's not the cause of changes
20:35:50 <George> planetmaker: What vehicles set would become broken? A name, please. And a vehicel name in the set.
20:36:10 <planetmaker> I don't know. Mine not. But I certainly won't test all sets.
20:36:33 <planetmaker> There's more than a handful of people who write newgrf...
20:36:59 <planetmaker> And as said: probably it's quite unproblematic.
20:37:08 <George> there are rather small amount of people who create vehicle GRFs, IMHO
20:37:41 * andythenorth wonders whether to mention that open wagons are all well and good, but miss the point when the graphics look nothing like the cargo
20:37:53 <andythenorth> in pikka sets, sugar cane will be a grey mineral
20:38:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: how do you think sisal or hemp look like, if left laying around a bit?
20:38:21 <George> Every widely used set is supported, and such a change would be talen into account soon or less
20:38:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: leave them long enough, you get coal
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20:39:11 <planetmaker> George: is it? What are 'widely used sets'?
20:39:30 <George> MB made a note on the forums and the wiki in advice (1 month), I suppose that is enough to make a support or make discussion in case it rises some impotant problem
20:40:09 <andythenorth> George: did that go in the TTDP forum?
20:40:20 <planetmaker> I didn't see it there
20:40:22 <andythenorth> I saw it there and wondered if it should be moved to newgrf technical discussions
20:41:09 <andythenorth> It's in 'general TTDPatch'
20:41:23 <andythenorth> maybe it was announced elsewhere too
20:41:27 <planetmaker> Well, in any case, George: you will be the 'evil' guy who carries out that change - not mb :-) But again: I don't care myself
20:41:37 <George> I suppose it shopuld be copied, of cause
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20:42:57 <planetmaker> the whole thread seems mis-placed
20:43:46 * andythenorth considers the classes thing
20:44:08 <andythenorth> I'm still not convinced there shouldn't be a new class for 'it flows'
20:44:20 <andythenorth> nothing said has convinced me it's a bad idea :)
20:44:22 <planetmaker> 'powder', if so at all
20:44:33 <planetmaker> or 'granular' rather
20:44:38 <andythenorth> granular is perfect
20:44:50 <planetmaker> it's part of my daily bread :-P
20:44:57 <planetmaker> granular matter matters :-P
20:44:58 <b_jonas> does concrete flow for you?
20:45:00 <valhallasw> I suggest implementing jamming
20:45:06 <andythenorth> wearing my vehicle-author hat for a minute...
20:45:06 <planetmaker> b_jonas: rock flows for me ;-)
20:45:11 <George> planetmaker: the whole thread seems mis-placed -> you are free to contact Owen or any other admin/mod to move it
20:45:22 <b_jonas> planetmaker: but rocks are clearly granular
20:45:27 <planetmaker> your thread, George
20:45:36 <b_jonas> planetmaker: I wouldn't call concrete granular, but it flows
20:45:53 <andythenorth> so I can (FIRS author) can set bulk and piece goods
20:45:55 <Terkhen> it's quite easy to cause jams, just play with road vehicles
20:45:58 <George> planetmaker: I'm not a mod, I can't move threads
20:46:10 <planetmaker> George: nor can I outside openttd
20:46:12 <Ammler> it should not be copied, it should be moved, ECS is part of newgrf, not ttdp imo
20:46:28 <valhallasw> b_jonas: I would. There are crushed rocks in there, so it will act like granular matter
20:46:38 <andythenorth> then I (vehicle set author) can dick about trying to xor things so that piece goods with bulk don't go in inappropriate hoppers
20:46:42 <George> Ammler: That is fine. But I'm not a mod, I can't move it
20:46:53 <andythenorth> or I could just make the hoppers only allow 'granular'
20:47:18 <andythenorth> but then I have a legacy problem with bulk :(
20:47:32 <b_jonas> concrete actually needs a very special vehicle anyway
20:47:40 <b_jonas> you can't just transport it in normal grain hoppers
20:47:42 <andythenorth> concrete needs a concrete mixer
20:47:46 <andythenorth> otherwise it sets
20:47:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: a new class "granular" might make sense in my eyes. It'd support wagons like the ogfx-train's fertilizer wagon
20:48:08 <andythenorth> when it sets, there are only two options: jack-hammer it out, or explosives
20:48:11 <b_jonas> and how about communal garbage?
20:48:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth: adding that class would not deprecate anything
20:48:32 <andythenorth> let me just see if it actually solves the problem
20:48:38 <planetmaker> it would e.g. for fertilizer correct to be 'bulk' and 'granular'
20:48:43 <andythenorth> I am a bit sketchy on the caro props
20:48:52 <andythenorth> can I AND as a vehicle author?
20:49:11 <andythenorth> i.e. only allow classes that are bulk AND granular
20:49:20 <andythenorth> I think I can only XOR?
20:49:34 <Ammler> George: use report button ("!") and ask for move
20:50:31 <George> As for me as an industry/cargo set coder the cargo classes are not impotant - I can set it to anything required. It is impotant for vehicle set coders. So I suppose they should come to some solution, that is finaly documented on the wiki. And I would put them into my industry/cargo set
20:50:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, you can
20:50:46 <andythenorth> George: mb totally disagrees with that approach :(
20:50:57 <andythenorth> he has told me it is all about cargo definition, not vehicle support
20:51:04 <andythenorth> and he controls ECS
20:51:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I don't think granular helps. I think I made a bad suggestion :(
20:51:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not sure.
20:51:43 <andythenorth> won't be the first time :D
20:51:50 <planetmaker> There are cargos which can be blown.
20:51:59 <planetmaker> like fertilizer, grain, cement
20:52:20 <planetmaker> that's what I would envision that class to be usefull for. Or nuts, oil seeds, maize
20:52:34 <planetmaker> but probably nothing more
20:52:54 <planetmaker> but then... it's not necessary. I can do that already in my vehicle sets without that cargo class.
20:53:16 <andythenorth> I think the problem that irritates me is insolubal
20:53:32 <andythenorth> there is far too much legacy for my idea to help any
20:53:48 <George> andythenorth> I think I can only XOR? - I've already suggested to have 2 props instead (like for cargo classes)
20:54:01 <andythenorth> George: suggest it again :D
20:54:13 <andythenorth> everyone hates prop 28/29 as it stands now
20:54:18 <andythenorth> far as I know anyway
20:54:36 <planetmaker> George: vehicles use (pos. properties) and not (neg. properties) XOR (explicit cargos)
20:54:41 <George> andythenorth: Hates? Why?
20:54:49 <planetmaker> it's not straight forward ;-)
20:55:25 <George> And what is suggested?
20:55:31 <andythenorth> 'everyone' is probably not scientific
20:55:44 <Terkhen> although it makes sense; it works quite good once you get to understand it
20:56:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is already a patch on the forum to configure refittability via callbacks
20:56:48 <andythenorth> so that could AND?
20:57:01 <Terkhen> sounds interesting :O
20:57:57 <planetmaker> Well. It'd be more straight forward, if the explicit cargos were two properties, too: friends (add anyway, no matter what classes say) and foes (don't add, no matter what classes say)
20:58:13 <planetmaker> that xor for explicit cargo support is also what makes it so bad when classes change
20:58:37 <Terkhen> planetmaker: that makes sense
20:59:37 <planetmaker> hm... I guess we have a newgrf feature request, eh? :-)
20:59:47 <planetmaker> which we can shove in eachothers shoes :-P
21:00:02 * andythenorth feels like classes were designed to comply to UIC standards for rail freight
21:00:42 <Terkhen> I have too much projects already :P
21:01:10 <Terkhen> but it would make sense to start by checking that refittability via callbacks patch
21:01:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I will bounce the FICR and RSGR tickets
21:01:40 <planetmaker> "callbacks patch"?
21:01:58 <planetmaker> thank you, andythenorth :-)
21:02:20 <planetmaker> that'll leave me less grudgy ;-)
21:02:27 <andythenorth> I might add piece goods to RSGR
21:02:38 <andythenorth> so that authors who want to XOR could
21:02:48 <andythenorth> planetmaker would that cause you trouble?
21:03:36 <planetmaker> it's a cargo only used by FIRS, right?
21:04:39 <andythenorth> if I re-add bulk to SCRP, that cause you XOR troubles?
21:05:48 * Terkhen discovers that he only understand callbacks in nml :P
21:08:53 <andythenorth> cbs are one of the easier things in nfo
21:09:41 <Terkhen> I suppose, they are also quite easy in NML... I think that my brain just refuses to understand them for some reason
21:10:12 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I can write you a CB also only in NML...
21:10:20 <planetmaker> at least without lookup.
21:10:29 <planetmaker> Roughly it looks the same, though, in NFO
21:11:28 <Terkhen> that I can understand :)
21:13:12 <planetmaker> frosch123: I'm not quite sure... is it there also then displayed to the user?
21:13:41 <andythenorth> if I check random with mask 1F, what's that equivalent to in 1/n terms?
21:13:54 <frosch123> the cb is only executed on gamestart when loading the game
21:13:54 <planetmaker> within the purchase or depot view: refittable to anything but oil, passengers and fibre crops
21:14:03 <frosch123> it is not called while the game is running
21:14:16 <frosch123> you cannot dynamically change stuff over time
21:14:25 <Terkhen> since the patch only changes the initialization of refit_mask, everything that uses it should work fine too
21:14:48 <frosch123> planetmaker: it's like a property, just as callback :p
21:15:08 <Terkhen> that makes sense... removing refit support for a cargo which is currently being carried would be nasty
21:15:27 <andythenorth> 'my vehicle got old so don't carry this cargo any more'
21:15:33 <andythenorth> (it all fell through the rust in the bottom)
21:15:58 <Terkhen> you could use the capacity callbacks for that
21:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... when screen closes a window because the program ended, i don't suppose there's a way to look at the last output of that window?
21:16:50 <planetmaker> hm, that topic again :-) I still like the idea to show a rusty old vehicle when the vehicle is not serviced or too old ;-)
21:17:52 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yes, one of the 'advantages' of not using a terminal for output :p
21:17:54 <Terkhen> sounds complicated, but it would give visual feedback to the player
21:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: care to explain?
21:19:34 <Alberth> if you use a terminal, you can read the output of a program after it finished
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21:25:37 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21385 /trunk/src/cheat_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Added a missing 'this' prefix, and some documentation to cheat gui code.
21:28:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the HEQS bug still baffling?
21:28:33 <planetmaker> kinda. Still doesn't work exactly like it should :S
21:36:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21386 /trunk/src/cheat_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use updated value to decide year to cheat to, instead of increment/decrement.
21:38:54 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21387 /trunk/src/cheat_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Add an enum for cheat numbers.
21:41:40 <Alberth> that one does not change anything, I just use a different variable :)
21:42:05 <andythenorth> looks like it might pave the way for something?
21:43:07 <Terkhen> to a clean and tidy cheat gui code!
21:43:12 * planetmaker hands hammer and siecle
21:45:09 *** Vadtec is now known as Vadtec[A]
21:46:20 *** Vadtec[A] is now known as Vadtec
21:51:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: alberth * r21388 /trunk/src/ (cheat_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Feature [FS#4289]: Allow entering of the new year in a text box when cheating the year.
21:51:34 <Terkhen> the trams are sparkly now :O
21:51:35 <Alberth> not really more clean than it was
21:52:35 <Alberth> finally one can easily find out after 5000000 years :p
21:53:13 <Terkhen> my guess is "Vehicle is getting very old and needs replacement"
21:53:17 <planetmaker> finally all those cheaters like me can have more fun ;-)
21:54:15 <Alberth> why would you cheat the year, other than for testing puroses of an industry set?
21:55:12 <LordAro> v nice :D been waiting for that for a while
21:55:55 <LordAro> Alberth: to get from 1950 to 2050 in less than a hundred clicks?
21:56:16 <Alberth> yes, but why would you want to do that?
21:56:35 <Alberth> ie generating a new world is easier
21:56:49 <Terkhen> meh, I can't play for longer than 5 minutes without thinking of something to code
21:56:51 <LordAro> well you implemented it :p
21:57:26 * andythenorth has that problem with FIRS
21:57:53 <Alberth> I am terribly stuck with groups, so I thought to make myself useful in other ways :)
21:58:10 <andythenorth> leave groups for a bit :)
21:58:17 <andythenorth> not that big a deal
21:59:01 * Terkhen is also leaving partial refit for a while
22:00:05 <Alberth> LordAro: it is a mistake to think that I implement what I use.
22:01:40 <Alberth> yes, but there is no room in the newgrf gui :(
22:01:41 <planetmaker> [22:54] <Alberth> why would you cheat the year, other than for testing puroses of an industry set? <-- for testing purposes of vehicle sets :-)
22:02:02 <planetmaker> basically every newgrf actually. year is an often used variable
22:02:45 <planetmaker> like ogfx+trains bulk wagons change their look when bought before / after 1970
22:03:40 <LordAro> Alberth: i thought of a reason! : people who like top play a certain decade, but only that decade (there must be someone out there...)
22:04:10 <Alberth> that's daylength patch for, isn't it?
22:04:20 <Terkhen> or they could use a NewGRF that changed everything to have wider date intervals :)
22:04:42 <planetmaker> Terkhen: now, that is something I would totally use
22:04:50 <Alberth> Terkhen: that would be useful, but for existing grfs?
22:05:06 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes, exactly for them ;-)
22:05:24 <planetmaker> but it'll be a pain, I guess. And would result in sort-of day lenght
22:05:51 <LordAro> Alberth: daylength isn't in trunk though... some don't like patches/can't compile
22:05:59 <Terkhen> it's funny, I completely forgot about this
22:06:17 <Terkhen> IIRC I even had a magic excel file that coded the vehicles for me
22:06:18 * andythenorth has never played daylength but is increasingly interested
22:06:47 <andythenorth> I've tried the 1830 - 2030 thing, and bluntly all the horses (lovely) are boring
22:06:55 <andythenorth> it's all just .... slow
22:07:04 <andythenorth> then all the good stuff goes by in a flash
22:07:24 <andythenorth> I get SD-40s for...20 years then they're gone
22:07:41 <Alberth> I am carefully considering to seperate years for newgrfs from game years
22:08:00 <Alberth> ie grfs think time progresses much slower
22:08:17 <andythenorth> I have been quite hostile to daylength, as it has potential to create much FIRS pain
22:08:20 <Alberth> the game play stays, years stay equally long
22:08:36 <Terkhen> I like that solution :)
22:08:50 <Alberth> but instead of incrementing a year each time, you stay in the same year (for newgrfs, and some other stuff)
22:08:56 <andythenorth> just increase all distances :P
22:09:21 <andythenorth> time = distance / speed
22:09:33 * andythenorth didn't do philosophy of physics for no reason :D
22:09:35 <Alberth> ie a year-length patch instead of day-length patch :)
22:10:09 <andythenorth> how many months for the year?
22:10:52 <andythenorth> can we invent new months?
22:11:14 <Alberth> sounds like a nice way to specify year-length :)
22:11:42 <LordAro> thats an idea: a configurable date
22:11:45 <Alberth> I am not sure whether the years should be longer
22:12:05 <LordAro> no. of months, days, etc
22:12:40 <Alberth> not easy to change, code assumes it stays nicely in 0..11 and 1..31 range
22:14:50 <Alberth> but perhaps that should be changed :)
22:15:48 <Alberth> only 13 occurences of _cur_month in the source :)
22:17:46 <frosch123> most places use _date
22:27:42 <andythenorth> production multiplier is 16 by default?
22:34:02 <andythenorth> bed time. apparently
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22:54:33 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21389 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Feature: Use alphabetical order when sorting industries by type at the industry directory window.
23:03:35 *** Keyboard_Warrior is now known as theholyduck
23:03:37 <planetmaker> I guess an unpublished sprite alignement template for your rail wagons :-)
23:04:01 <DanMacK> I used Pikka's templates :P
23:04:13 <planetmaker> yeah, they're the good ones :-)
23:04:36 <DanMacK> Are the rail cars OK though?
23:06:06 <planetmaker> they are lovely :-)
23:06:27 <planetmaker> If you feel like: OpenGFX+Trains could use the same thing in 32/33px length
23:06:53 <DanMacK> I'll see what I can do :)
23:07:07 <planetmaker> Ha, planes are also a jewel.
23:07:09 <DanMacK> Although 7/8 works good for toyland
23:07:32 <planetmaker> I'll have to start to cherry pick sprites I'll get into OpenGFX before the next release
23:08:03 <planetmaker> Well. Nothing bad with having them in the 2nd next :-)
23:09:19 <planetmaker> I guess I'll go for the RV and the planes. There's nothing orignal existing so far and it'll be the biggest step forward for OpenGFX :-)
23:10:27 <planetmaker> I wonder whether some of the eyes could be a bit more prominent or how far it would be over-doing it, esp. in the \ and / views of planes.
23:11:26 <DanMacK> I could play around with it a little, but it's a fine line :) I need the original Toyland Spritesheet in png to see how Mr. Foster did it... lol
23:11:37 <planetmaker> I mean the flashbang
23:12:56 <planetmaker> and I agree with you: the Juggerplane is the most beautiful with a nice smile :-)
23:14:29 <DanMacK> That was unintentional as well... lol
23:15:06 <planetmaker> Well... it makes one want to hug it - as far as hugging with sprite planes goes ;-)
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23:16:20 <planetmaker> but apropos tropic wagon sprites: the upper one with the door is passenger and the one below shall be mail?
23:16:38 <planetmaker> I'd rather interpret it as passenger wagon with open doors and the one below that when travelling
23:16:54 <planetmaker> And the 3rd row is ... mail? valuables?
23:19:00 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
23:19:53 <DanMacK> Second one is passenger, first is mail
23:20:50 <planetmaker> oi. I'm asking as I have the idea for OpenGFX+Trains for passengers to have doors for the wagons. Which open when the train is loading.
23:20:59 <planetmaker> I'd love to have sprites for that :-)
23:21:25 <planetmaker> same actually for mail, valuables and possibly some goods wagons
23:21:38 <planetmaker> I wonder why few train sets implement that
23:21:57 <DanMacK> most coach sprites have doors 2px wide, not worth the effort really
23:23:29 <planetmaker> well... it'd change colour from the normal livery to something darkish where one looks into the wagon :-)
23:23:47 <planetmaker> but possibly you're right
23:25:01 <DanMacK> Mail cars, yeah... and some coaches would work, I agree
23:29:22 <DanMacK> Still working on ships as well, about half done
23:30:31 <planetmaker> he... I actually meant the Flashbang X1. But this revised Whizzer with the separated eyes is also a nice improvement :-)
23:30:49 <planetmaker> :-) I shall be looking forward to that :-)
23:31:05 <planetmaker> And I'll have to convince Ammler to help coding all these sprites :-P
23:32:02 <DanMacK> I'll check the X1 as well
23:32:09 <DanMacK> I'm off though, heading home
23:32:20 <DanMacK> Look for more in a couple days :)
23:32:25 <planetmaker> And I'm off to bed. Nice talking to you :-)
23:32:25 * Ammler should disable highlight in this channel
23:32:53 <Ammler> sali and good night :-)
23:34:22 <planetmaker> good night Ammler and all others :-)
23:39:28 <SmatZ> good night Ammler and planetmaker :)
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