IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-27
⏴ go to previous day
00:01:18 *** Keyboard_Warrior is now known as theholyduck
00:05:07 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
00:08:44 *** JVassie_ has joined #openttd
01:03:22 *** Wizzleby has joined #openttd
01:08:22 *** Lakie is now known as Guest622
01:51:44 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
02:47:04 *** fjb is now known as Guest637
03:10:52 *** oliver_ has joined #openttd
04:45:01 *** supermop has joined #openttd
05:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
07:12:01 *** Kurimus has joined #openttd
07:14:31 *** Cybertinus has joined #openttd
07:41:24 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
07:43:44 <andythenorth> new disaster framework :O
07:46:29 <supermop> i want newgrf disasters
07:46:44 <supermop> well i never play with disasters on
07:47:15 <supermop> but some less silly ones with gameplay considerations could be nice
07:50:09 * andythenorth isn't sure about disasters
07:50:13 <andythenorth> I always turn them off
07:50:55 <supermop> i do not need UFOs on my railroad
07:53:57 <supermop> how is the smoke coming?
07:54:32 <andythenorth> I hit the limit of what I can fool with in ottd source
07:54:53 <supermop> you were trying to ge multiple funnels?
07:56:05 <andythenorth> I have a hack that can hard code smoke to multiple funnels
07:56:10 <andythenorth> and place it correctly
07:56:15 <andythenorth> but it's a hack :P
07:56:36 <andythenorth> when it comes to extending newgrf callbacks correctly, I am baffled
07:56:45 *** Xaroth_ has joined #openttd
07:59:56 <supermop> well callbacks baffle me even at their simplest
08:51:15 *** Progman has joined #openttd
09:13:48 <xiong> Derailment disaster if rails aren't well maintained. Avoidable by running work trains periodically over the entire network. After <date>, introduce railsters.
09:21:03 *** IchGuckLive has joined #openttd
09:23:01 <IchGuckLive> Hi all from snowy Germany, i got so many problems with Signals ,Trains crashing or blocking. now i build a simple example scenario for testing and im more confused then bevore
09:24:01 <IchGuckLive> i want to run at least 3 trains the sig on the Route are one way path-signals
09:24:28 <IchGuckLive> witch sig do i have to put infront of the stations
09:24:32 <Hirundo> The X at the bottom station is missing a track piece
09:25:45 <IchGuckLive> if i put 2way block siugnals there the train is running to the station and blocks the train in the station for going out
09:26:29 <IchGuckLive> or shoudent i put any signal there
09:26:52 <IchGuckLive> so the ai is searching for a path
09:28:07 <Zuu> If you want block signals you should use those with a tall white bar.
09:28:33 <Zuu> hmm, though your existing signals are they block signals or path signals?
09:28:52 <xiong> IchGuckLive, Couple of points about signals: If you mix block and presignals with path signals, you are likely to have troubles.
09:28:58 <Zuu> Okay, then no signals at the stations.
09:29:20 <Zuu> I first though they looked like yellow horizontal bar block signals.
09:29:37 <IchGuckLive> so shoudt i go first for the hole game with pathsignals
09:29:53 <Zuu> I suggest sticking to path signals.
09:30:09 <Zuu> I only mistaken your placed signals for block ones.
09:30:21 <xiong> Also, consider where your trains are going to sit when they are waiting at a red. I find it easiest to put a signal down immediately after a junction; then click-drag to place additional signals the correct distance out. Then remove the first signal, because it's in the worst place.
09:31:28 <xiong> Path signals are easiest to work. If you can cover an entire network with only one-way paths, it's a snap. That won't always be possible, though.
09:32:16 <IchGuckLive> ok thanks it seams to run
09:33:10 <xiong> Also, strongly suggest you note that it's extremely difficult to tell one signal from another. If you ever use more than one kind, you'll need to tell them apart. The ? tool will tell you the type. You will have to look very closely to figure out the facing. There is no help for indication if a signal is facing away from you.
09:35:01 <IchGuckLive> i will go on with all your advises
09:35:54 *** green-devil has joined #openttd
09:36:40 <IchGuckLive> on more question on the breakdowns moin planetmaker
09:36:59 <IchGuckLive> the numbers in the config are they in Frames
09:37:37 <IchGuckLive> first-breakdown means 500frames from leaving the depo?
09:38:22 * planetmaker is totally out of the frame and has no idea
09:39:53 <IchGuckLive> npf.npf_rail_firstred_penalty = 1000 -> less is faster brakedown ?
09:40:47 <planetmaker> those settings are ALL totally unrelated to the breakdown of vehicles
09:40:54 <planetmaker> it's pathfinder stuff
09:41:06 <IchGuckLive> so there is for eatch train a brakdown conter and the red signal will set this to 1000
09:41:11 <planetmaker> and if you mess with them don't complain about strange train behaviour
09:41:44 <planetmaker> it's a pathfinder penalty
09:42:11 <IchGuckLive> is there value i can change in the config to have less breakdowns
09:42:19 <planetmaker> it gives the influence of a red signal on the way a train choses to its destination
09:42:29 <planetmaker> in the difficulty settings
09:42:45 <planetmaker> 'none', 'reduced' and 'normal'
09:43:13 <IchGuckLive> vehicle_breakdowns = 0
09:45:54 <IchGuckLive> thank you i go shuffeling snow
09:46:02 *** DayDreamer has joined #openttd
09:47:34 <planetmaker> shuffling snow. Interesting ;-)
09:47:35 * Zuu is happy to only have a balcony to care about :-)
09:53:22 *** DayDreamer1 has joined #openttd
10:20:52 *** AveiMil has joined #openttd
10:26:22 * andythenorth wonders about bulldozer speeds
10:26:31 <andythenorth> they are way too fast in HEQS :P
10:28:24 <Rubidium> I'm fairly certain they can go 100 km/h given the right environmental circumstances
10:29:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: tanks can go up to 100km/h, too.
10:30:07 <planetmaker> and they're fairly similar with their traction type
10:31:23 <Rubidium> in my case there wouldn't be much traction :)
10:31:30 <andythenorth> most bulldozers travel about 3mph
10:31:40 <andythenorth> faster destroys the tracks
10:32:03 <andythenorth> and also the final drives - there is often *no* suspension on the drive sprocket
10:32:31 <Rubidium> pff... in my case it's not the speed that destroys the tracks, rather the sudden eventual deceleration
10:35:29 <Terkhen> they can reach even higher speeds if you get a cannon with the right size
10:46:24 *** JVassie_ has joined #openttd
10:48:09 <andythenorth> bulldozers are slow, expensive to buy and expensive to run
10:48:15 <andythenorth> why did I put them in game?
10:48:48 <Terkhen> that is probably why I'm always using the big trucks only
10:49:07 <Rubidium> andythenorth: so you can use the graphics of the bulldozer in FIRS
10:49:18 <andythenorth> mostly I think I just like them
10:49:26 <andythenorth> they would make more sense with roadtypes
10:49:58 <Terkhen> they would be able to drive over cheaper roads?
10:50:50 <andythenorth> one thing about bulldozers - expensive, but road cost = zero :P
10:51:36 <Terkhen> hmm... but roads are not very expensive anyways, they would make sense if standard roads were more costly
10:51:43 <andythenorth> on a slope > 2 tiles long, the bulldozers perform about same as default coal trucks
10:51:49 <andythenorth> and carry more cargo
10:52:30 <andythenorth> that advantage is somewhat offset by the existence of other HEQS trucks :P
10:54:45 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
10:58:12 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
10:59:42 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
10:59:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
11:00:36 <Terkhen> hmm... maybe I should add a yellow, blinking title
11:01:14 <Alberth> and perhaps an indication of the size?
11:01:50 <Terkhen> indeed, some numbers might make the warning scary enough
11:02:46 <__ln__> Terkhen: replace the download url with one generated by shadyurl.com
11:08:09 <Ammler> Alberth: branch 1.0 maybe?
11:09:25 <Alberth> for r19285, that may be useful indeed
11:11:57 <Alberth> but then you also need a setence to explain what to do with trunk imho
11:28:05 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
11:28:20 <andythenorth> when using year cheat, it would be nice to have a text box
11:28:40 <andythenorth> (I have to use year cheat a lot for testing newgrf)
11:29:27 <Alberth> clicking at the year does not work? (or double clicking, I don't remember exactly what is used normally)
11:31:39 * Rubidium wonders what Alberth is talking about?
11:32:09 <Alberth> some andy trying to cheat years easier
11:32:38 <Alberth> at the world-generation window, you can click at the year to get a text box
11:32:54 <Alberth> not everybody knows that
11:37:10 <andythenorth> doesn't work in the cheat window
11:37:21 <andythenorth> the world-gen window example is what made me think of it
11:48:06 <Alberth> wouldn't it be easier to load a couple of save games instead?
11:49:35 * Alberth ponders a newgrf test environment
11:55:53 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
12:07:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: save games don't really cover it for checking vehicle intro dates, properties that change over time, industry availability etc ;)
12:08:41 *** fmauneko has joined #openttd
12:08:54 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
12:10:44 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttd
12:10:51 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by terkhen :: r19397 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt toolbar_gui.cpp) (2010-03-13 10:18:57 UTC)
12:10:52 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: -Add: Enter the starting year at the scenario editor by clicking at the date panel.
12:11:02 <Terkhen> andythenorth: like this but for the cheat gui?
12:11:50 <Terkhen> I'll take a look at it later
12:17:01 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
12:17:27 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
12:21:22 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
12:25:58 <Alberth> there is actually structure in it? It looks one random mess of tracks :)
12:28:15 <Terkhen> the trains are moving without problems through it, so I guess it has some kind of structure even if I'm not able to discern it
12:33:31 <avdg> oh yes, there is structure :p
12:42:03 <andythenorth> 16t, 160hp, FF coeffecient TE == 159KN tractive effort
12:42:22 <andythenorth> 28t, 260hp, FF coeffecient TE == 28KN tractive effort
12:42:35 <andythenorth> isn't something quite wrong here?
12:44:11 <Terkhen> hmmm... something seems wrong indeed
12:45:20 <Terkhen> are you using the new road vehicle properties for CB36?
12:48:13 <andythenorth> Terkhen: far as I know I am
12:48:35 <andythenorth> code is similar for both
12:48:46 <andythenorth> seems like coeffecient of TE might not be used by one
12:48:57 <Terkhen> if you get different TE when using CB36 and without, the cause might be some unit conversion error in the evaluation of the callbacks
12:49:26 <andythenorth> seems one of them isn't using prop 18 correctly
12:49:29 <andythenorth> I'll have to see why
12:54:09 <Terkhen> hmm... that might be the error... if the TE property is not set for a road vehicle, it will use the default TE coefficient, but what happens if the TE is set via callback?
12:56:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21336 /trunk/src/core/random_func.cpp: -Fix (r21030) [FS#4274]: compile failure when desync debugging is enabled (fonsinchen)
12:56:32 *** fmauneko has joined #openttd
12:59:03 <andythenorth> Terkhen: in this case I'm not setting TE via cb
12:59:19 <andythenorth> but I am setting weight
12:59:55 <andythenorth> it's limited to just one vehicle type
13:00:00 <andythenorth> must be a problem with the action 0
13:04:35 <andythenorth> 46km / h ships :D
13:05:28 <andythenorth> not a realism mod then ;)
13:08:34 <andythenorth> it's an esoteric issue
13:09:05 <andythenorth> when handling cb36, the default result has to be made to fail to handle props that I don't want to change
13:09:19 <andythenorth> the way to make it fail is to return a regular action 2 ID as a result
13:09:28 <andythenorth> it has to be a valid action 2 ID though
13:11:07 <Ammler> AveiMil: planes should load/unload much longer imo
13:12:00 *** theholyduck has joined #openttd
13:14:07 <Alberth> aound 1/24 day in reality @ 2.2 seconds .... 0.1 second should be enough :p
13:14:09 <Ammler> you could mesure with a lot of the biggest planes on the international airport, every terminal should be occupied
13:15:04 <Ammler> Alberth: around 10 times of a train
13:17:31 <Alberth> but I agree, it can be a step towards reducing the quick profits of planes
13:19:17 <Ammler> it would make the big airports useable
13:19:46 <Ammler> else it is just a "fly through port"
13:21:38 *** Chillosophy has joined #openttd
13:24:09 <Wolf01> is still impossible to make a feature to build 2 different track types on one tile? I say the diagonal ones for example
13:24:33 <Wolf01> or is it beacuse is too much work for too little benefit?
13:26:09 <Rubidium> has it ever been impossible?
13:26:57 <Wolf01> I don't remember, I usually use only electrified railway :D
13:27:42 <Wolf01> in TTD it wasn't possible, I'm sure about this
13:28:30 <Rubidium> you are talking about the impossibility to implement a feature, and so am I
13:28:54 <Rubidium> i.e. I'm not saying it's currently possible in OpenTTD, just about the fact that it never has been impossible to implement
13:29:23 <Alberth> mostly just like subways are not impossible :p
13:30:23 <Alberth> diagonal seems to be the best option to me, crossings would be 'interesting' at least.
13:31:05 <Alberth> I don't know how many bits you'd need to store railtypes in the tile, and how many there are in that case
13:31:09 <Rubidium> maglev-rail crossings are conceptually impossible
13:31:43 <Wolf01> maglev road crossings too, but we have them
13:31:58 * Rubidium blames Chris for that
13:32:09 * Rubidium guesses Fred should fix that
13:33:07 <Wolf01> disallow level crossings via newgrf would be cool
13:35:20 <Alberth> in the general case, you should allow different companies too at the same tile (at least for diagonal), but that takes a lot more bits
13:41:08 <Wolf01> uhm, ok, it's already possible
13:41:20 <Wolf01> I didn't remember abou that :P
13:42:13 <Wolf01> I want to experiment a bit with NuTracks
13:42:34 <AveiMil> Ammler, not sure what effect that will have on balance. I guess that's one way of doing it.
13:42:51 <AveiMil> But I don't feel like going through all those 50 airacraft all over again and rebalancing :)
13:42:54 <AveiMil> already done it two times
13:42:57 <Ammler> Imo, it is has, if planes stay longer on ground
13:44:52 <Wolf01> bah... fatal error on NuTracks
13:47:57 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
13:48:42 <AveiMil> [14:04] <andythenorth> 46km / h ships :D
13:49:00 <AveiMil> Ammler, oh of course it does
13:49:14 <AveiMil> how it effects it is the question :)
13:49:25 <andythenorth> AveiMil: how fast?
13:50:04 <AveiMil> [14:05] <andythenorth> not a realism mod then ;)
13:50:09 <AveiMil> I meant to copy/paste and respond to that
13:51:04 <Wolf01> uhm, found a bug on the newgrf interface
13:51:28 <Rubidium> Wolf01: then it's on your screen :)
13:51:55 <Terkhen> hmmm... is there something else I need to do to get desync output besides configuring with --enable-desync-debug=2 and running openttd with -d desync=...?
13:51:56 <Rubidium> with the right settings you'll find bugs in some title bars in OpenTTD though
13:51:58 <Wolf01> when I try to navigate with the arrow keys in the loaded grfs, it changes the selected grfs in the inactive list
13:52:24 <andythenorth> I like slower ships for gameplay
13:52:47 <Ammler> Terkhen: the files are in save/autosave
13:52:53 <Rubidium> Terkhen: desync debug only works when you have a server and a client joins that server (the first client to be precise)
13:53:04 <Rubidium> -ddesync is quite pointless at that moment though
13:53:59 <Terkhen> I see... I don't know why I thought that things like CheckCaches would show up in single player
13:54:21 <Rubidium> checkcaches probably works in single player though
13:54:46 <Rubidium> but that needs -ddesync=2 (or higher)
13:55:22 <Terkhen> hmm... that's what I'm using (ddesync=9 actually, after not seeing a single desync message)
13:55:22 <Rubidium> but... that gets dumped to $autosavedir/commands-out.log
13:55:50 <Terkhen> oh, there they are :)
13:56:41 <Terkhen> I was under the impression that I had to be doing some stupid mistake and at least my impression was right :P
14:01:54 * andythenorth is underwhelmed by the changes to RV physics
14:02:09 <andythenorth> I now have to reduce vehicle capacity, or seriously increase HP
14:04:09 <andythenorth> who changed the spec :P
14:05:10 <Terkhen> are they problematic?
14:05:50 <andythenorth> it's not a big deal
14:09:48 <andythenorth> I'm fighting fundamental physics, not just the game
14:09:59 <andythenorth> speed up slopes is a function of hp per ton
14:10:09 <andythenorth> and these bulldozers don't have enough hp per ton
14:10:19 <andythenorth> but giving them more would be quite unrealistic :P
14:10:26 <Wolf01> is the 2cc-set compatible with ecs?
14:18:47 <Ammler> but you should use the nightlies, afaik
14:21:44 <Wolf01> can you point me to the download? I only found the 2009 beta
14:24:39 <Wolf01> ok, found a nightly from october 2010
14:27:41 * andythenorth scratches head about HEQS
14:35:40 * andythenorth remembers that mentioning ponies doesn't make them any more likely :P
14:36:38 <Wolf01> another question (it's too much I don't play and I'm not updated with new things): all the OpenGFX - xyz grfs found on bananas could be interesting (e.i. they extend the basegraphics) or are they remains of when the opengfx were on multiple files?
14:43:20 <Wolf01> meh... hnorses are really slow
14:44:06 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
14:44:15 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
14:44:50 <Wolf01> ok, that's why it does exists the "road vehicles original acceleration model"
14:46:52 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
14:59:04 <andythenorth> balancing sets is a chore
14:59:10 <andythenorth> where's pikka? he likes it :P
15:01:31 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
15:03:26 <andythenorth> if I modify RV running cost base, that changes for all vehicles, not just the ones in my newgrf?
15:03:57 <Rubidium> should affect only your vehicles (in new enough OpenTTDs)
15:16:27 <andythenorth> there are way too many variables in this game
15:16:38 <andythenorth> balancing a set for gameplay is fruitless
15:17:22 <Terkhen> are you talking about costs, movement properties or both?
15:17:29 <andythenorth> breakdown settings * weight settings * acceleration settings * industry set in use * other vehicle sets in use
15:17:56 <andythenorth> it means designing a set so that players are encouraged to make certain choices is pointless
15:18:02 <andythenorth> which is fine by me I guess
15:18:24 <andythenorth> I just end up flat rating all vehicle costs to come out about the same per ton shipped
15:19:20 <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't think it is possible to balance costs for more than one industry set
15:21:11 <Alberth> you'd start with having a quick and convenient way to run the tests, I think
15:21:25 <Alberth> (automatically, in batch)
15:23:04 * Alberth ponders what would be useful to do with the consists used by a company
15:46:47 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
15:50:48 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
15:56:20 *** Klanticus has joined #openttd
16:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> random UI suggestion for consists: if you rearrange {real|virtual} vehicles in a depot{,-equvalent}, you make a temporary consist for each change the player makes. all temporary consists that still have more than 0 vehicles using them get permanent on closing the window
16:19:12 <Alberth> that sounds pretty random yeah :)
16:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> example: player buys an engine and 3 passenger wagons, you end up with temporary consists [engine], [engine, wagon], [engine, wagon, wagon] and [engine, wagon, wagon, wagon]
16:22:02 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
16:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> only the last one is still "active" on closing the depot
16:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so the other ones can fairly safely be discarded
16:23:01 <Alberth> I was more thinking in the direction of groups. Unfortunately, a consist that is not a real vehicle, are just a bunch of EngineID s, where very little code exists for
16:23:14 <Alberth> what would be the value of all those temporaries?
16:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> well, before the player buys the second and third wagons, the vehicle [engine, wagon] must have some kind of consist assigned to it
16:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically some kind of garbage collection
16:24:35 <Rubidium> that's inevitably going to lead to a long list of commands when the window gets closed to build those particular vehicles, right?
16:25:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure about that.
16:25:27 <Rubidium> which'll be quite troublesome if the server owner decides that you may only execute one command per frame and that there may only be 2 commands in the command queue
16:26:07 <Rubidium> the default is 32 commands in the queue, though you'd reach that pretty quickly when you're changing the vehicle often enough
16:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> DoCommands or DoCommandPs?
16:27:32 <Alberth> even before that, why have [engine, wagon] as intermediate result, if you only extend it to [engine, wagon, wagon] as intermediate result?
16:28:32 <Rubidium> for those intermediate results you might need real vehicles, or you have to duplicate the build/modification commands for the vehicles to work on those fake vehicles
16:29:17 <Alberth> Currently I have an array of EngineID as consist
16:30:33 <Alberth> real vehicles have other problems, like costing money just for existing, getting listed in the other windows, etc
16:32:22 <andythenorth> small dump truck should cost about the same as small ship of similar capacity?
16:32:36 <andythenorth> similar engine size, similar amount of sheet metal
16:32:41 <andythenorth> similar amount of fabrication
16:39:59 <Alberth> I never buy either of them :p
16:40:19 <Alberth> capacity is as good a criterium as any other, I guess
16:40:57 * andythenorth briefly contemplates buying a real dump truck
16:41:04 <andythenorth> for $50k us dollars
16:41:17 <Alberth> hmm, given that ships are slower, I'd pick a truck
16:41:18 <andythenorth> that would leave me with no pension fund :P
16:41:26 <andythenorth> but I'd have a dump truck....
16:41:39 <Alberth> you can sell it again at eBay :p
16:41:52 <andythenorth> Alberth: dump trucks don't float....so may be slower on water
16:43:14 <Alberth> sure, but in that case, the relation between prices is not important. Only when you can move cargo with either, the price becomes interesting
16:43:41 * Terkhen wonders if cross compiling openttd would be faster than compiling in mingw/msys
16:44:04 <Alberth> hmm, if you buy a big-enough dump truck, would the amount of displaced water not be sufficient for floating?
16:44:43 <Ammler> Terkhen: do you have a working env to cross compile?
16:44:44 <Alberth> compiling at Linux is faster than at windows afaik
16:45:04 <Ammler> does the wiki howto still work?
16:45:45 <Terkhen> I remember setting up one to see how fast was cross compiling from a VM, using archlinux
16:46:20 <Terkhen> IIRC most mingw libraries were already available as packages so I didn't need to tinker much
16:46:58 <Terkhen> I'll probably do it again to test with a real machine, if you are interested I can document what I'm doing once I'm start
16:47:50 <andythenorth> according to my formula, 50t 600hp dump truck costs same as 1000hp Jubilee train in default game
17:04:13 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
17:12:51 *** lordaro has joined #openttd
17:46:50 <Rubidium> Terkhen: it depends pretty much on the way the compiler is compiled / the compiler
17:47:11 <Rubidium> I doubt cross-compiling OS X on Linux is faster, or on OS X it's also obnoxiously slow
17:48:44 <Rubidium> although MinGW is seriously slow
17:48:49 <Terkhen> IIRC it was better to compile it natively with mingw/msys than in a linux VM, but not by much
17:49:12 <Rubidium> last compile: linux x64: 556s, win64: 569s, win9x: 830s
17:51:01 <Terkhen> I should just move all my development to linux again... I miss the speed and the simplicity
17:51:07 <Terkhen> but my final year project must work on windows, so I'm stuck with it
17:51:22 <Rubidium> having said that: linux i686: 375s, win32: 526s
17:53:21 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
17:54:14 <Rubidium> and to add more variables, amd64 and win9x are started simultaniously with docs compilation (and the first that start the VM, so a slightly colder cache)
18:20:46 * andythenorth makes HEQS eye-wateringly expensive
18:27:14 <Alberth> that confirms my suspicion that x64 compile is really slower
18:27:39 * andythenorth always worries when irc is quiet, in case no-one's coding neat stuff
18:27:51 <andythenorth> but actually....irc chat means no coding :P
18:28:52 <Alberth> groups with consists are going down the drain very quickly atm :(
18:30:38 <andythenorth> Alberth: what are the problems
18:32:15 <Alberth> hmm, I was finding out where work was being done :p
18:32:38 <Alberth> basically, you need a consist to be a first class citizen, like a vehicle
18:33:06 <Alberth> and build your vehicles from there
18:34:22 <Alberth> otherwise you never get a virtual vehicle nicely in the game
18:34:59 <Alberth> I don't know whether it is possible without destroying current game play
18:35:12 <Alberth> neither do I know whether it is worth the trouble
18:36:01 <Alberth> it does have potential, I think, although I cannot tell you what exactly
18:36:32 <andythenorth> is this groups && consists, or groups || consists
18:38:12 <Alberth> that is the 2nd problem, currently I am mostly considering consists only, how they relate to groups is a different complicated question, it seems
18:39:14 <Alberth> I had the hope that having a consist would be feasible as starting point, but that does not seem to be the case
18:43:26 <Alberth> I still expect that eventually groups (or routes, or whatever you call them) will be the central idea, and consists is one aspect of it.
18:44:53 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
18:45:22 * andythenorth hopes articulated rvs ignore running cost for trailers :P
18:45:30 <andythenorth> otherwise I have some fixes to make :P
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21337 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt finnish.txt hungarian.txt):
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:45:37 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: hungarian - 18 changes by IPG
19:04:27 *** ccfreak2k has joined #openttd
19:05:27 *** TB is now known as TrueBrain
19:05:29 *** ccfreak2k has joined #openttd
19:05:29 *** Xaroth_ has joined #openttd
19:05:29 *** lasershock has joined #openttd
19:05:29 *** Qantourisc has joined #openttd
19:05:29 *** XeryusTC has joined #openttd
19:05:29 *** SpComb^ has joined #openttd
19:05:29 *** peter1138 has joined #openttd
19:05:29 *** bartavelle has joined #openttd
19:05:29 *** solenoid.oftc.net sets mode: +vov glx peter1138 peter1138
19:08:23 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
19:18:41 *** nicfer1 has joined #openttd
19:49:41 * andythenorth wonders if all cost setting etc. should be done after a few glasses of wine :P
19:54:12 <Rubidium> call that the "wine" economy and make it configurable
19:54:41 <andythenorth> parameter for number of glasses drunk?
19:55:27 <Rubidium> yes, and ones to factor in weight, kidney function and the likes
20:19:41 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
20:29:15 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
20:29:21 *** Progman has joined #openttd
20:41:12 *** b_jonas has joined #openttd
20:56:58 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
21:05:13 *** Progman has joined #openttd
21:09:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21338 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp openttd.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Fix [FS#4272]: bogus cache mismatch warnings with desync debugging because some cache was invalidated but never reset
21:11:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21339 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4272]: The VehicleCache was not checked for ships with desync debug options enabled.
21:18:24 *** fmauneko has joined #openttd
21:22:49 <AveiMil> Anyone want to play a multiplayer game?
21:25:51 <AveiMil> 5-6 people starting together and playing for a few hours competing
21:29:56 <b_jonas> 512x512 for 5--6 people?
21:30:03 <b_jonas> seems like you really want to compete
21:30:22 <Rubidium> 128x128 with that amount. That's getting competition
21:30:38 <Rubidium> with such a large map you won't get much (forced) competition quickly
21:31:22 <AveiMil> yeah 512x512 is plenty of space for a while
21:31:34 <AveiMil> industries and towns are set to low though
21:31:43 <Alberth> 256x256 was original, 4 times as much space with 5-6 people, pretty much like the original
21:35:09 <AveiMil> I've turned off that "Allow to join stations not directly adjacent"
21:35:39 <AveiMil> but I notice on my servers that some players are still streching their stations by building one lorry station next to the industry and another 5-10 tiles away
21:36:08 <AveiMil> guess they must be building one next to another all the way down and then deleting the ones inbetween afterwards
21:36:27 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
21:37:35 <Terkhen> that's called station walking
21:37:55 <AveiMil> There should be a way to disable that exploit
21:38:03 <AveiMil> an option that says stations must be connected tile to tile
21:40:14 <Terkhen> IIRC there is a setting that disables irregular stations, but I don't know if that does what you want or not as I never tried it
21:40:24 <AveiMil> "no uniform stations"
21:40:30 <AveiMil> tried it out, no clue what it actually does
21:40:46 <b_jonas> AveiMil: try setting the station spread
21:41:05 <AveiMil> oh I get it, no non-uniform stations means you can take a 4 lengt rail station
21:41:10 <AveiMil> and then add a 2 length one next to it
21:41:22 <AveiMil> doesnt have any effect with lorry stations (guess because they're 1 tile)
21:41:31 <AveiMil> what station spread is optimal?
21:41:33 <b_jonas> AveiMil: or have a rectangular railway station with a platform a level above the other
21:41:43 <AveiMil> because I've been told that too low station spread and you break other aspects of the game
21:41:52 <b_jonas> AveiMil: station spread optimal? depends on how large airports you want to be able to build
21:42:04 <AveiMil> right, want to be to build all sizes
21:42:09 <AveiMil> so I don't like taht workaround
21:42:39 <b_jonas> I don't see why you really want to work it around
21:42:44 <b_jonas> why not just allow it?
21:42:51 <AveiMil> because it totally breaks the game?
21:42:51 <Terkhen> yes, you are not able to add stations to an airport to transfer passengers/cargo
21:42:59 <AveiMil> you can have a road vehicle deliver 1 tile
21:43:07 <AveiMil> when the industries rae 500 tiles away
21:43:18 <Terkhen> so you should set it a bit bigger than the biggest airport
21:43:25 <Terkhen> AveiMil: the largest station spread is 64 IIRC
21:43:28 <AveiMil> its 12 now, which I guess is default
21:43:37 <AveiMil> and minimuim needed for airports
21:43:41 <Terkhen> yeah, 12 is the sane default
21:44:13 <AveiMil> I'd like to request a new OpenTTD option though, or just make it default, that you cannot staiton walk, all stations must be within 2 tiles of eachother to be connected or something
21:44:23 <AveiMil> and if you build 15 tiles with stations and then delete the ones in between
21:44:26 <AveiMil> the connection is broken
21:44:41 <b_jonas> 12 is like 8 tile airport next to shorter side of 7 tile long rail station
21:44:41 <Alberth> then they'd simply leave the intermediate ones
21:44:56 <b_jonas> I don't see why station walking would break the game really
21:45:23 <AveiMil> a road vehicle transporting oil 1 tile with a 500 tile distance is not game breaking? heh
21:45:49 <AveiMil> alberth, limit the max station length?
21:45:51 <b_jonas> it's not 500 tile because station spread is 12
21:46:12 <b_jonas> and if it's 12 then the most you could get is transporting 12 squares, which doesn't pay much
21:46:17 <Alberth> yeah, I'd like to see that 500 tile station :)
21:47:44 * Alberth ponders a chain of lorries 12 squares apart doing a 1 tile transport... :)
21:47:46 <b_jonas> AveiMil: but if you don't like that strategy, write it clearly in the rules that it's not allowed, and kick anyone from the server who does it
21:47:48 <Terkhen> AveiMil: as I already said, the maximum station spread is 64... and who is going to use such high values in a competition server?
21:48:00 <AveiMil> I was confused on what staiton spread did
21:48:04 <AveiMil> guess it's not that bad then
21:49:45 <AveiMil> it's frustratingly hard to get players
21:50:01 <AveiMil> when we were 7 people playing from 1950 together, that was a lot of fun
21:53:29 <b_jonas> some people might prefer collaborative play to competitive
21:54:43 <b_jonas> or world-building on easy difficulty to playing for money
21:55:07 <AveiMil> but I know there are people like me as well
21:56:38 <b_jonas> then there's the question of terraforming versus not
21:56:47 <b_jonas> so there are so many different styles it's hard to get a game together
21:57:16 <b_jonas> maybe it's easier when you're doing a lan party with friends
21:59:07 <AveiMil> just need to get players accustomed to competing using one standard
21:59:16 * andythenorth wonders why FIRS Sugar Beet / Cane cargo has bulk class
22:02:15 * andythenorth wonders who added Depleted Uranium and Rockets as cargos on TTDP wiki
22:02:23 <AveiMil> andy, are you head FIRS developer?
22:02:47 <andythenorth> head of no organisation
22:02:57 <Terkhen> is someone doing a terrorist industry GRF?
22:03:10 <andythenorth> can't be bothered to read the history to find out
22:03:18 <andythenorth> what if it's steganography :P
22:03:25 <andythenorth> hide in plain site
22:03:30 <AveiMil> new industry, Al Quieda Camp
22:03:57 <AveiMil> transport terrorist to New York City 'industry'
22:04:03 <AveiMil> that'd be a hit I'm sure
22:05:27 <Rubidium> did you know that as of dec 31, 2010 some ECS cargo classes changed?
22:05:51 <AveiMil> what's ESC cargo class
22:05:54 <andythenorth> I have been told :)
22:06:09 <b_jonas> are there already (a) porn grfs and (2) patches to add a combat system to multiplayer ottd yet?
22:06:10 <Terkhen> where are those changes listed?
22:07:05 <Terkhen> hmmm... but if they are implemented in beta6 then I already tested OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles with them
22:07:30 <Rubidium> Terkhen: cargotypes wiki page (newgrf specs)
22:07:34 <AveiMil> wow there's a lot of servers on 1.0.4 still
22:07:39 <AveiMil> and people playing on them
22:07:55 <Rubidium> it's just that a past tense for something in the future sounds quite wrong
22:08:12 <b_jonas> Rubidium: good. it would be hard to claim ottd is a well-developped stable game instead of just a hacker toy in neverending beta stage without those
22:08:16 <Terkhen> I did not notice the date when I checked that page, and I did not notice it now either
22:09:10 <Rubidium> although the question is to what extent kicking someone (possibly repeatedly) is combat
22:09:29 <b_jonas> the third thing we need is tee shirts
22:09:40 <b_jonas> plus maybe a non-computer board game edition
22:10:22 <Yexo> we got the t-shirts already
22:10:44 <b_jonas> though there are already train building board games
22:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> which idiot translated that...
22:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> bash: fg: gegenwärtig: Kein solche Job.
22:16:01 <AveiMil> guess I'll watch some gomtv.net since I can't get a game going :(
22:16:01 <Rubidium> yes, that's horrible
22:16:33 <AveiMil> Owen Rudge, is he on IRC?
22:17:06 <Rubidium> "hau: vg: herrschend: keine solchen Job" would be way better :)
22:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: not in the last 3 hours.
22:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you only have 122 to chose from ;)
22:22:07 <AveiMil> lol, prefers anonymity?
22:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can narrow it down further if you only consider those starting with o and ending with rudge...
22:23:52 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
22:24:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21340 /trunk/projects/ (6 files):
22:24:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: prepare the MSVC project files (or rather its libraries) for collation (natural sorting) using ICU.
22:24:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Note: this means, for MSVC users, that you will need openttd-useful 4.0 or
22:24:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: higher to compiler this revision or higher, though sadly you'll need 3.4 or
22:24:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lower for the earlier revisions. Both 3.4 and 4.0 can be installed
22:24:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simultaniously though.
22:24:20 <AveiMil> figured you meant he was offline
22:24:36 <AveiMil> is he "project leader" or something?
22:24:52 <AveiMil> if I donate now, why am I donating to him so to speak, hehe
22:25:46 <Terkhen> AveiMil: you should check the donations thread in the forum
22:26:53 <AveiMil> searched for ~13 seconds
22:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yay for attention span of a kolibri
22:27:44 <Terkhen> and your plan is to bug the person that spent time preparing that thread and making it the most visible one in the forum
22:28:02 <Terkhen> well, second to the rules thread
22:28:27 <Terkhen> hmm... annoy might be a better term for what I meant
22:28:50 *** Xaroth_ is now known as Xaroth
22:29:08 <Terkhen> wow, you were not lying about your attention span :)
22:29:17 <Terkhen> reread my initial comment
22:29:50 <AveiMil> yeah, sounds like you imply that I'm looking to bug Owen
22:30:09 <AveiMil> but then again YOU might have prepared that thread but I don't know about it
22:30:14 <AveiMil> because I havent seen the thread
22:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> highlighting a person on irc is generally concieved as "bugging"...
22:30:30 <Xaroth> then you fail a finding
22:30:32 <AveiMil> when you write "in the forum" I obviously go to the General thread index
22:30:39 <AveiMil> and there's no "donations" thread stickied
22:30:52 <AveiMil> so you'd save a lot of time just posting the link
22:31:23 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: can you ask Xaroth if he is sure?
22:31:43 <Terkhen> AveiMil: if you can't see it then you have not searched for it at all
22:31:55 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: nah, asking Eddi|zuHause those things would be cruel
22:32:10 <Xaroth> AveiMil: you do notice the big "Donate" link next to "Search" right?
22:32:10 <AveiMil> I'm not going to run a forum search for it
22:32:13 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: you might be right. We should ask Eddi|zuHause what he things about it
22:32:25 <AveiMil> yeah, I see that now that you mention it
22:32:29 <AveiMil> but that was not intutive
22:32:35 <AveiMil> my eyes scanned for a donations thread
22:33:00 <AveiMil> how you expected me to just know that is beyond me
22:33:11 <Xaroth> smart people would be looking for a 'search' link
22:33:20 <Xaroth> at which point they would notice
22:33:24 <AveiMil> smart people would just like the thread
22:33:29 <Xaroth> that that search link is located right next to the donate link
22:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: what you need to decide is if you want to donate to the tt-forums or to openttd...
22:33:34 <AveiMil> if it's not easily visible in the general forum
22:33:54 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: i think Eddi|zuHause is ignoring us :(
22:34:01 <Terkhen> so... smart people ignore the stickied threads and prefer to ask for questions that are already answered there?
22:34:05 <Yexo> which is the first forum
22:34:18 <AveiMil> I don't read those sections
22:34:23 <AveiMil> I only care about the OpenTTD section
22:34:34 <Yexo> you can find a donate button on openttd.org
22:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i am generally ignoring lines that contain a highlight to me :p
22:34:58 <Yexo> when you donate to the forums you don't donate to openttd, although openttd benefits a lot from those forums
22:35:11 <Xaroth> AveiMil: another 'clue' .. the donations thread is in the forum aptly named "Read These First"
22:36:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: _nobody_ in the history of the world has ever read the instructions :ü
22:36:05 <AveiMil> Read These First is like a surefire way to get ignored :D
22:38:08 <Xaroth> no, if that thread was so important it'd be front page news.
22:38:34 <AveiMil> who said I was looking for anything?
22:38:57 <AveiMil> I was asking questions about Owen and Terkhen said I should goto the forum thread about donations.
22:39:12 <AveiMil> which doesnt really answer my questions anyway
22:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you didn't actually formulate an answerable question anyway.
22:39:56 <Terkhen> it should allow you to understand why your questions were wrong in the first place
22:40:44 <AveiMil> doesnt really explain much, and mention of I need to decide who to donate to, openttd or the forums is confusing
22:40:53 <AveiMil> because both the site and the forum thread speak of the same guy
22:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: just because two groups share the same accountant, doesn't mean they can transfer funds as they wish
22:42:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21341 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Add: Use the complete industry name instead of only the town when sorting industries by name.
22:42:48 <Yexo> AveiMil: the site is owned by owen, and incidentally he also handles the openttd donations
22:43:04 <Yexo> that doesn't mean in any way that the cash is mixed
22:43:16 <AveiMil> so he's not a developer or project leader
22:43:39 <Yexo> he is a developer, but not very active
22:44:09 <Rubidium> he's the most active OS/2 developer!
22:44:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21342 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Add: Sort some lists again after a language change.
22:45:40 * Rubidium can be considered the most active s390 developer :)
22:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Simon Sasburg (HackyKid) - For the many bugfixes he has blessed us with <-- what about the many bugs? [e.g. in pbs ;)]
22:47:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21343 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Function that compares strings using case insensitive natural sort.
22:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and "George" is like "Cher" and "Madonna"?
22:49:02 <Rubidium> feel free to provide a patch to "fix" that though
22:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know his last name...
22:51:01 <Terkhen> hmmm... I hate writing commit messages
22:51:24 <Rubidium> -Feature [FS#xyz]: natural sorting of strings using ICU
22:51:45 <avdg> I'm not an expert in it either
22:51:59 <Terkhen> Rubidium: thanks again :)
22:52:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21344 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#4214]: Natural sorting of strings using ICU.
22:52:35 <Terkhen> I was stuck at "natural sorting when sorting..."
22:52:42 <avdg> hmm, I remember that one :p
22:53:56 *** nicfer1 has joined #openttd
23:26:01 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
23:47:59 <Terkhen> Zuu: what do you mean with stable search?
23:48:50 <Zuu> Like how it is implemented for eg. signs:
23:48:51 <Zuu> return r != 0 ? r : ((*a)->index - (*b)->index);
23:48:58 <Zuu> (after the string comparison)
23:49:37 <Zuu> Otherwise two succesive sorts of lists containing more than one entry with the same name would yeild different results.
23:50:20 <Zuu> But maybe the answer is in my answer - not all lists can contain lines that have equal name.
23:50:35 <Rubidium> Wolf01: but it's too small for 320x240 again
23:51:41 <Rubidium> avdg: that's a very good idea
23:53:27 <Terkhen> hmm... in most lists that is not very common
23:53:53 <Zuu> For vehicles that is not even allowed.
23:54:37 <Zuu> But I guess it could happen for servers in the multiplayer window.
23:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess (town, industry) pair can be non-unique
23:56:00 <Terkhen> I guess so... do servers have an equivalent of the index?
23:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> unstable sort can be annoying
23:56:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: ip,port could be reasonably unique...
23:57:22 <Zuu> Indeed one unstable sort was fixed in the sign list window when I was working on my patch for that window.
23:57:56 <Terkhen> feel free to compile a list with every name sorting that could use this
23:58:01 <Terkhen> I promise to check it, but not today :)
23:58:51 <Wolf01> I read about a "bigger gui" (Zephyris IIRC), it would be cool to have a gui which scales with the resolution, maybe optional because I want lots of viewports opened :D
23:59:39 <Zuu> hmm, the resolution has little to do with the DPI.
continue to next day ⏵
