IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-19
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04:50:07 <planetmaker> good day / morning / afternoon / night /... :-) choose any
04:51:08 <supermop> well it should be good morning to you then, as I believe you are in Europe
04:51:18 <planetmaker> quite early one, yes
04:51:22 <supermop> i'll take it as a good evening to myself
04:52:11 <planetmaker> I guess that I'm awake now I should have breakfast :-)
04:52:36 <supermop> ight as well get a good start to the new day
04:53:58 <supermop> given the euro-centric audience of the game, i alays seem to pick the worst times to log on here
04:54:19 <planetmaker> he... 6am is the most silent one, I guess, yes
04:54:36 <planetmaker> though there are more from the Americas
04:54:50 <supermop> i cannot imagine anyone wanting to talk about nfo at that time of day
04:55:26 <planetmaker> you can as usual, only know when you have asked the question :-P
04:55:52 <supermop> i dont notice as many american coders and patch makers as europeans on the forum though
04:57:06 <planetmaker> though pikka is in Australia and our whale in Canada
04:57:25 <planetmaker> as is maybe our amiable forum host in the US a lot
04:57:29 <supermop> thats what we get for neglecting our train system here: no one wants to play a game about it
04:58:44 <supermop> to be honest i've never played a non-temperate game
04:59:50 <planetmaker> you miss a lot :-)
05:00:28 <planetmaker> the other climates are quite worthwhile and all have their unique charm
05:00:47 <planetmaker> especially if not flattened out by using the same newgrf everywhere ;-)
05:01:25 <supermop> i only played tto until around 2004
05:01:43 <supermop> part of that time i was living in england, so it seemed relevant
05:02:17 <supermop> started playing ottd around 6.5
05:02:58 <planetmaker> he :-) there was only 0.6.0 ... 0.6.3 ;-)
05:03:14 <supermop> i guess it was .3 then
05:03:58 <supermop> i do really like the original tto trains though
05:04:18 <supermop> with maybe a few metros added and some emus,
05:04:19 <planetmaker> I don't quite recall. How do they compare to the TTD trains?
05:04:27 <supermop> i think it would be a great balanced set
05:04:59 <supermop> the same, one or 2 more early steam engines
05:05:10 <supermop> tto started in 1930 by default
05:05:36 <planetmaker> well... That's what I try to add with OpenGFX+
05:05:45 <planetmaker> some slight extensions to the default
05:05:58 <planetmaker> without changing the basics
05:06:23 <supermop> i really like the ogfx+ concept
05:07:02 <planetmaker> coworkers are merrily welcome
05:07:23 <supermop> well i still cant figure out how to code haf of what i have drawn
05:07:38 <planetmaker> have you ever risked a look at nml?
05:08:04 <supermop> i figure i should at least finish mlss in nfo
05:08:28 <supermop> i dont understand html either, so i would be starting from scratch
05:08:41 <supermop> modular locomotive shed stations
05:08:44 <planetmaker> nml has nothing in common with html
05:08:59 <planetmaker> oh... ok right :-) Then NML is also still a bad idea
05:09:31 <supermop> the next things i want to do are a town grf and a railtype grf
05:09:39 <supermop> nml might be better for those
05:10:02 <planetmaker> railytypes werk perfectly. towns not yet 100%
05:10:07 <supermop> but i am going to want to "break" rules in those as well
05:10:25 <planetmaker> define rule breaking ;-)
05:10:45 <supermop> well in mlss its wierd sprite sizes and bounding boxes
05:11:12 <supermop> when i get to a train grf,
05:11:14 <planetmaker> that's what newgrf-ing is about
05:11:20 <planetmaker> cheating visually
05:11:42 <supermop> i will probably want to make every car articulated with an invisible part
05:11:54 <supermop> to gain extra length
05:12:00 <planetmaker> look at nutracks subway tracks
05:12:31 <planetmaker> you might want to talk to eddi about that. I think he has something in his sleeve up to that end
05:12:55 <supermop> i was talking to him a few nights ago about varaction 2
05:13:14 <supermop> right now i am trying to make tiles with smart fences
05:13:33 <planetmaker> varaction2 indeed helps. with nearby tile reference
05:13:49 <planetmaker> you need to check the tile class. variable 61(?)
05:14:01 <supermop> i think i have a check that will work
05:14:32 <supermop> then mask out the last 4 numbers, cCpP, to be only 0 or 1
05:14:38 <supermop> then a set of ranges
05:15:05 <planetmaker> that sounds like what I'd do
05:15:06 <supermop> so that it can see if any edge of the tile is the edge of the station
05:16:15 <planetmaker> doesn't sound overly complicated. Though in NFO it might get lengthy
05:16:15 <supermop> now i have to figure out how to take the 4 fence sprites in my action 1, and put them into action 2 sets to be used by the varaction 2
05:16:51 <planetmaker> easy way: make it one sprite. the long way where I have no experience with: sub-sprites
05:17:31 <supermop> i was hoping i could assemble the sprits for each range just from 4 basic sprites
05:17:49 <supermop> rather than make a sprite for all 16 possibilities
05:18:43 <supermop> i might be able to get away with 6 sprites, not including groundsprites
05:19:11 <planetmaker> I think you can easily go via property 09, sprite layout
05:19:40 <supermop> every one was telling me that 00 had nothing to do with this
05:19:50 <planetmaker> This controls what sprites are displayed, where they are displayed, and in what order.
05:20:12 <supermop> but can it define various sets of the same sprites?
05:20:57 <supermop> like if i say layout sprites for 16 tiles, 2 views per tile
05:21:46 <planetmaker> yes. And then use the callback property 0B to select the layout you need
05:22:03 <supermop> uh whats that? i have to look that up
05:22:08 <planetmaker> the callback then is accessible in the varaction2 chain
05:24:01 <supermop> where can i read about this callback? on the wiki?
05:24:34 <supermop> under the action 00 section?
05:25:22 <supermop> these start at 10...
05:25:26 <planetmaker> you need to enable the callback via action0, property 0B. And then in your varaction2 chain, you query the current callback, then its result. ...
05:26:57 <supermop> so if my varaction2 asks for sets numbered 0-F, this call back will provide the action 00 tiles as those sets?
05:27:31 <supermop> i am going to read the calllback tutorial
05:29:47 <planetmaker> basically the callback returns (in one or another form) the tile layout
05:30:17 <supermop> so do i need 16 action 00s, or one action 00 with 16 tiles?
05:34:11 <planetmaker> you specify all layouts in one action0, property 09
05:34:23 <planetmaker> if I understand that correctly.
05:34:40 <supermop> its starting to make sense here
05:35:04 <supermop> i am pretty amazed that i have been able to code anything so far
05:35:37 <planetmaker> I wonder the same about me every day, too ;-)
05:36:25 <supermop> but i couldnt find anyone to code the stuf i drew, so i had to learn
05:37:01 <supermop> is there any desire to make bridge types?
05:37:26 <planetmaker> there definitely is. But no-one who actually tackles it
05:37:44 <supermop> i would like to make a bridge grf eventually
05:37:55 <planetmaker> bridge types. road types. Both would be really nice
05:38:00 <supermop> but i think alot of the parameters i want arent possible
05:38:24 <supermop> i think i could be interesting to code industries like towns
05:38:37 <planetmaker> towns != houses :-)
05:39:00 <supermop> an industry is a collection of buildings
05:39:14 <planetmaker> still it's monolithic
05:39:25 <planetmaker> an industry basically is just a collection of sprites
05:39:42 <supermop> well i mean in a more concepual way
05:39:49 <planetmaker> forcing that on towns would be a huge step back
05:40:06 <planetmaker> yes. conceptually industries are the most boring thing.
05:40:17 <planetmaker> they just are. nothing 'inside'
05:40:43 <planetmaker> each house of a town has basically all the functions an industry has, too
05:40:51 <supermop> a steel mill has a furnace, piles to store ore, office buildings, and rollers to extrude the steel
05:41:01 <planetmaker> except that they don't have production depending upon input
05:41:29 <planetmaker> supermop: it hasn't. It only has sprites ... they could be a marble playground
05:41:39 <planetmaker> a house already is 80% the same
05:41:52 <planetmaker> So making a town like a house is... recursion
05:42:17 <supermop> i am actually arguing to make the industry like a town
05:42:39 <planetmaker> :-) I understood you the other way around, sorry
05:42:49 <supermop> so more furnaces grow in the steel mill as production rises
05:43:01 <planetmaker> you can animate industries
05:43:13 <planetmaker> but you cannot (yet) change their layout
05:43:23 <supermop> and small victorian era industies in the middle of a city would eventually run out of room to grow
05:44:09 <supermop> so that they would be less competitive with an industry on the edge of town with plenty of room
05:44:32 <supermop> yeah farms are similar to what i am thinking here
05:44:39 <planetmaker> that's in principle certainly possible. But it requires quite a lot of coding work
05:44:58 <planetmaker> both newgrf, but openttd before that
05:45:22 <planetmaker> let's see what ponies andy will breed in his FIRS production ;-)
05:45:50 <supermop> well trees like fields would be a great start
05:46:23 <supermop> if mines could have small 'fields' of ore piles, that would also be cool
05:46:33 <supermop> like you said, alot of work
05:47:46 <supermop> i want to do more visual cheating first
05:50:14 <planetmaker> but well. They might become reality *somewhen*. But don't expect anything anytime soon. Both is just written so that previous discussions have not been in vain :-)
05:50:49 <supermop> does it break towns to have mostly 2x2 buildings?
05:53:35 <planetmaker> though it might be worth a try...
05:53:49 <supermop> are you familiar with the metabolist movement?
05:54:02 <planetmaker> but usually the town decides upon what it wants to do and then asks the house newgrf what it can get for the desired action
05:54:13 <planetmaker> I don't even know what that means
05:54:33 <supermop> well do you recognize this building:
05:55:59 <planetmaker> not in particular, but the principle design
05:56:04 <supermop> this might be too wierd for 7am
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05:56:31 <supermop> well in tto it was in the original graphics
05:56:59 <planetmaker> well. we have a similar one still...
05:57:31 <supermop> but as a student of architecture, the squared-off towers bother me
05:58:02 <supermop> this building was one of the very few built examples of metabolist architecture
05:58:26 <supermop> which was all about organic structures made from prefab parts
05:58:56 <supermop> originally the idea was to build hundreds of them
05:59:28 <supermop> kind of like how cities in tto would become full of them by 2010
06:00:03 <supermop> sorry if this is boring
06:00:37 <planetmaker> I had been looking for the opengfx equivalent... :-P
06:00:38 <supermop> i am an architect, and i was very into this stuff even before i went to university
06:01:15 <planetmaker> but infact I find that particular building in the image you linked not particularily attractive or beautiful
06:01:17 <supermop> i think that the building in tto is what originally interested me in the metabolist movement
06:01:48 <supermop> it is in really bad shape right now, it has been neglected
06:02:14 <supermop> but when you visit it in person, you can feel the bueaty of the idea, like looking at lego
06:02:42 <supermop> hopefully it isnt that bad!
06:04:10 <planetmaker> The architect is one of the most famous ones... - excentric but definitely a nice spot within the usual urban tristesse of usual architecture
06:05:26 <supermop> anyway, because metabolism was about taking standard parts and using them to create endless variations,
06:05:56 <supermop> i think it is a great fit for near-future games of TT
06:06:31 <supermop> especially when the game world is so covered by infrastructure
06:07:09 <supermop> i want to make a town set based on the ideals of the metabolist movement
06:08:28 <supermop> it would require many buildings to visually blend with their neighbors
06:08:42 <planetmaker> sounds though like the tristesse the NA city set offers :-)
06:09:04 <supermop> MLSS has largely been a practice grf to learn how to do this
06:09:18 <supermop> i dont want to do skyscrapers
06:09:44 <supermop> because that is kind of a different idea of future architecture
06:10:15 <supermop> that nakagin building is actually quite small in real life
06:10:27 <planetmaker> if you do a house grf, it's usually a good idea to have houses for all earas. And all 5 town zones
06:10:44 <supermop> so its been fun planning it out
06:11:08 <supermop> the metabolist stuff could start around 1969,
06:11:25 <supermop> and there could be high modernism in the 50s,
06:11:42 <supermop> bauhaus and ciam in the 30s
06:11:59 <supermop> and italian futurism in the 10s-20s
06:12:34 <supermop> all of which were ideas about using technology to integrate man with the urban environment
06:13:52 <supermop> sorry about the arch. history rant
06:13:54 <planetmaker> he, yeah... Bauhaus... all-so-famous but also an architecture style which is just functional but not nice
06:14:09 <supermop> the problem with bauhaus
06:14:27 <supermop> that reall bauhaus was all about craft and quality
06:15:04 <supermop> many 'fake' bauhaus buildings were built which just copied the visual style
06:15:16 <planetmaker> well... I studied near the cradle of the Bauhaus school. I went to lectures on a daily basis in a Bauhaus building, the canteen was in another. Oh well.
06:15:54 <supermop> without understanding the underlying need to improve the quality of the lives of the occupants
06:16:19 <planetmaker> Jena. But it's not far.
06:17:10 <supermop> so far i just have sketches drawn of the buildings
06:17:21 <planetmaker> the turn-of-century buildings are nicer ;-)
06:17:58 <supermop> well a good building is a good building, no matter what the visual tyle is
06:18:26 <supermop> there are plenty of traditional buildings with good functional design,
06:19:11 <supermop> and too many "modern" buildings that ignore the reasons for modern architecture
06:19:35 <supermop> and post-modern buildings that ignore it intentionally
06:20:44 <supermop> some of the most 'modern' buildings in a philosophical sense are the traditional folk buildings of a culture
06:21:44 <supermop> its much more helpful to study this vernacular architecture of common people, than say the famous palaces
06:22:16 <supermop> because they were built to be efficient at what they do
06:23:17 <supermop> likewise, i think a castle is nicer than a mansion, because it was built by an engineer with a function in mind
06:23:55 <supermop> sorry this is off topic for this room
06:24:12 <planetmaker> there seem to be only us two right now...
06:24:37 <supermop> are you familiar with dieter rams?
06:24:53 <planetmaker> it's alright :-) - and no. It's another word I haven't heart of before
06:25:16 <supermop> he designed for braun from 1955-1995
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06:25:31 <supermop> he also designed furniture
06:25:56 <supermop> very functional and beautiful products
06:26:14 <supermop> that were well thought out
06:26:21 <planetmaker> hmpf... spammer in the forum again :-(
06:26:40 <supermop> oh yeah it is bad ately
06:27:37 <planetmaker> sometimes it's amazing how much daily-life products can profit from design. But sometimes it's also astonishing how much of their function can be taken away by mis-design ;-)
06:28:47 <supermop> today i bought from german ebay aa braun watch
06:29:11 <supermop> very simple clean desing
06:29:35 <planetmaker> yeah... watches can be good examples for this
06:31:06 <supermop> like these but white
06:31:27 <supermop> and used, so it was cheap,
06:31:36 <supermop> even thoug it is an antique now
06:31:51 <ccfreak2k> Doesn't Braun make toothbrushes?
06:32:03 <supermop> they were bought out
06:32:14 <planetmaker> all kind of electrical devices...
06:32:14 <supermop> and fired their design team
06:32:31 <supermop> now there is no thought in the design any more
06:32:48 <supermop> because they are owned by proctor and gamble,
06:32:56 <supermop> a toothpaste company
06:33:36 <ccfreak2k> Proctor = Proctology
06:34:31 <supermop> i really like the ogfx gui
06:34:43 <supermop> i think it is good and functionaall
06:35:07 <supermop> better than the original
06:35:50 <planetmaker> nice to hear :-) Make sure you tell Zephyris, too.
06:36:08 <supermop> yeah, i really like his work
06:36:18 <supermop> i want to get my hands on that tool
06:36:24 <planetmaker> he's a drawing machine ;-)
06:36:34 <ccfreak2k> Did the GUI actually change with OpenGFX or just the tiles and trains?
06:36:51 <supermop> to make variations on modular buildings
06:37:01 <supermop> have you seen that thing?
06:37:33 <supermop> its exactly what organic architecture is about
06:37:48 <ccfreak2k> openttd: error while loading shared libraries: libicui18n.so.42: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
06:37:51 <supermop> well, insofar as it can be approximated in a tile based game
06:39:08 <planetmaker> when he really brings it to a state to make house newgrfs automatically... awesome
06:39:36 <supermop> in the future, if i could be dynamic in game...
06:40:02 <supermop> create random houses based on type of city
06:41:19 <planetmaker> that's unlikely ;-) - but per city is already newgrf-able
06:42:11 <planetmaker> though it needs jumping over some fences
06:43:21 <supermop> do you want electrics for other ogfx+ climates?
06:43:42 <planetmaker> what? train engines?
06:44:09 <supermop> arctic and tropical both use american stock i think?
06:44:13 <planetmaker> maybe at some late(r) stage, yes
06:44:46 <planetmaker> Well... one can argue that way with the regional ressemblance, yes
06:45:04 <planetmaker> Though I'd not be sure about tropical
06:45:25 <supermop> which is unfortunate, as there were some significant electric railways here, and still are now
06:46:41 <supermop> i always thought locomotion made more sense with the british/swiss/american breakdown
06:46:42 <planetmaker> well. My roadmap for 0.2 is to resort things internally a bit and add more visual cargo support for wagons
06:47:05 <supermop> it seems silly to duplicate engines in two climates
06:47:29 <supermop> let me know if you ever want drawing help
06:47:36 <ccfreak2k> What are we taLking about now?
06:47:59 <supermop> i feel like in ttd, we mised out on all sorts of continental engines
06:47:59 <planetmaker> climate designation of vehicles, and opengfx+ in particular
06:48:22 <planetmaker> well. There's plenty of newgrf which can sort that
06:49:02 <planetmaker> my main emphasis is to make an extension which makes sense from a game-play perspective
06:49:28 <planetmaker> supermop: if you want drawing work, though: there's plenty which OpenGFX itself could still use
06:49:43 <planetmaker> E.g. airports which look different in different climates.
06:50:00 <planetmaker> Or also indeed the vehicles which are the same may be different
06:50:02 <supermop> meaning adding snow?
06:50:15 <planetmaker> no. Just really different looks
06:50:31 <planetmaker> Adding snow is useful for the arctic versions (only)
06:50:43 <planetmaker> and can only be done within OpenGFX+airports
06:51:01 <supermop> i could try to do a couple airports to match ogfx style but with variations
06:51:01 <planetmaker> actually: there, all airports need rotations by all multiples of 90°
06:51:21 <planetmaker> opengfx+airports can handle that
06:51:33 <planetmaker> what has to remain though: the layout
06:52:11 <planetmaker> and the layout as a whole is rotat-able
06:53:17 <supermop> hello to terkhen by the way, didn't see your greeting there, sorry
06:53:28 <Terkhen> hello supermop and planetmaker :)
06:53:31 <planetmaker> as such... having unique airport sprites for climates or maybe more important, rotations of the existing ones, would be a huge gain :-)
06:54:13 <supermop> i usually start with a model in rhinocerous, which i then draw over in PS
06:54:23 <supermop> so rotation shouldnt be hard
06:54:26 <planetmaker> I'd be especially interested also in toyland versions of the infrastructure
06:54:48 <planetmaker> it works well in the 3 usual climates, but toyland needs to differ :-)
06:55:27 <planetmaker> infrastructure here also means rail stations. maybe also RV and docks
06:55:55 <supermop> all of that is alot, but i will do what i can
06:56:11 <planetmaker> I know, it's a lot and will keep a single person busy.
06:56:25 <planetmaker> You do what you feel like doing :-)
06:57:19 <supermop> well, i want to get mlss finished, and my next grf started, but I also want to help out
06:57:52 <planetmaker> everyone will use base sets :-)
06:58:10 <supermop> i usually use them myself
06:58:40 <planetmaker> you can't play without a base set :-P - you might use the TTD one, though
06:59:37 <supermop> well, i would have preferred TTO, but i love the idea of being able to play not in a legal grey area
07:00:00 <supermop> i never owned a ttd cd, only tto
07:00:30 <planetmaker> I think it's a bit of a matter of getting used to one or another
07:00:38 <supermop> and i think ogfx is superior to ttd
07:01:01 <supermop> except for the grey capsule tower
07:01:09 <planetmaker> They're different for sure, better. Well, I should argue OpenGFX is better. And there are places where it is better. But also some where it is not
07:01:21 <planetmaker> from my very personal visual judgement
07:01:50 <planetmaker> grey capsule tower?
07:02:10 <supermop> the building i sent you the picture of
07:02:22 <planetmaker> Then draw a better version ;-)
07:02:28 <planetmaker> Make sure there's a bit CC in it
07:02:31 <supermop> in ogfx it has grey shafts instead of black
07:02:46 <supermop> ive actually drawn it several times!
07:02:57 <supermop> and for 32bpp ez as well
07:03:23 <supermop> ive also modelled the interior of the real one based on memory of visiting it
07:03:44 <supermop> its an important building to me personally
07:04:32 <supermop> back in 2005 i made a HL2 map of the inside of it so i could walk around through it
07:05:02 <supermop> with the measurements based on my photos and memory
07:05:57 <planetmaker> btw... how do you develop your newgrf? Do you use some kind of version control?
07:06:05 <supermop> i will try to make one that fits in with opengfx
07:06:18 <supermop> i have no idea what that is
07:06:39 <supermop> and number everything by hand
07:08:07 <supermop> every time i figure out something new, i increase the name of the file by 0.0.1,
07:08:25 <planetmaker> well. a version control (system) is a programm which keeps track of the changes for you and remembers all older versions
07:08:36 <supermop> and if it isn't totally embarrassing, i post it in my thread and ask people to try it
07:08:55 <supermop> i just have them saved as txt files
07:09:12 <Rawh> isn't it easier to have programs do that for you?
07:09:13 <supermop> i still get embarassed alot though
07:09:25 <Rawh> especially with 'larger' projects, I suppose
07:09:26 <supermop> i dont really know anything about programming
07:09:39 <planetmaker> it might sound too much work for too little gain, but it helps to save time after a bit getting used to :-)
07:10:01 <supermop> i dont know a single computer language either
07:10:08 <planetmaker> it has not much to do with programming itself. It's just a tool to keep track of changes
07:10:42 <planetmaker> you change a tile. Then you tell it "Changed tile XY's offset to better fit whatever"
07:10:57 <planetmaker> no file name changes, no copying. Just via a single command
07:11:04 <supermop> what i would really like,
07:11:13 <planetmaker> and you can go back and forth in history with single commands as well
07:11:20 <supermop> is to figure out how to automate the numbering of sprites
07:11:41 <supermop> i never figured it out
07:12:34 <planetmaker> just run nforenum myfile.nfo
07:12:55 <supermop> is it included in grfcodec 5?
07:13:03 <supermop> i thought i read that
07:14:07 <Rawh> anyways, time to go to work
07:14:22 <supermop> i should get to sleep so i can work tomorrow
07:15:14 <supermop> ok, i will look into those!
07:16:33 <planetmaker> oki. good night then :-)
07:17:12 <supermop> thanks so much for your help,
07:17:26 <supermop> im going to try to lean how to use that callback
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08:10:06 <ccfreak2k> planetmaker, I would just put it bluntly for him: each square doesn't have any particular static distance.
08:10:44 <ccfreak2k> You gave him a bunch of numbers, and as far as he's concerned, only one of them is right.
08:11:55 <Rubidium> planetmaker: nah, we're having good fun :)
08:13:48 <planetmaker> well. Now it's the 2nd time I give him one number... let's see. Otherwise Fred will have to join the round
08:14:41 <ccfreak2k> Rubidium, those are big squares!
08:15:25 <Rubidium> yet... still at least a factor 10 smaller than the largest scale found in OpenTTD
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08:23:59 <planetmaker> "hope to be involved more and talk soon" <-- is that a threat?
08:24:42 <Yexo> nah, a promise of more topics to make fun of
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10:36:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21252 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: introduce a constant for the number of milliseconds per game tick and use it
10:58:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21253 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Change: mention the OpenTTD version on the console/logs when starting an OpenTTD dedicated server like we mention it in the title bar for the GUI version
11:21:51 <Ammler> is r21252 some initial code for daylength patch? :-)
11:23:16 <SpComb> milliseconds sounds good
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12:33:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21254 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_game.cpp core/tcp_game.h network_server.cpp): -Change: show a different "lag" message when a client is lagging because of connection trouble or lagging because the client is just slow
12:33:57 <welshdragon> ooh, OpenTTD on my Android phone <3
12:34:27 <__ln___> do androids dream of electric sheep?
13:24:45 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21255 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp openttd.cpp): -Fix (r179): main menu error messages wouldn't show when you had an error message open in the game while whatever triggered you to go back to the main menu
13:31:13 <xiong> In FIRS, all the Fishing Grounds seem to come with a built-in Oil Rig and the whole has a pre-built "station". But no Oil Rigs are shown on the minimap. Bug or feature?
13:36:26 <lugo> i think there's no oil rig inside the grounds :D
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13:45:06 <xiong> lugo, Interesting link but I can't follow the writer's intent. I gather that the pre-built station is both dock and airport. I will further imagine that only helicopters can land there.
13:45:42 <xiong> If I send tankers there, will I never be able to take off any Oil?
13:46:25 <lugo> 'there' as in fishing grounds?
13:46:31 <xiong> That is, the Oil Rig revealed by the ? tool is... a hack to allow the copters to land?
13:46:47 <xiong> ... as in Fishing Grounds, yesser.
13:47:15 <lugo> you can not take off any oil from fishing grounds.
13:47:52 <xiong> That's rational, lugo. But I do see the Oil Rig with the ? tool, which is what started this... fishing expedition.
13:48:41 <xiong> I will say neither bug nor feature, merely a hack. Unclear why anyone would want fish so bad they would build a heliport out at sea, but...
13:49:33 <xiong> I have not yet got to the Wright Bros. We'll see.
13:52:03 <lugo> well if i click on a fishing ground with ?-tool, it says 'Fishing Grounds' for me, FIRS 0.5.4
13:53:00 <lugo> well the german translation
13:53:42 <lugo> i can confirm it says 'oil rig' in english, which o/c is a bug
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14:03:00 <lugo> well it says oil rig just for the fishing grounds 'station tile', so i guess it's a known bug
14:12:44 <Belugas> neither a bug or a feature
14:12:58 <Belugas> fishing is a replacement of an actual oil rig
14:13:36 <Belugas> problem stands in the fact that the station name part is determined from original station tye, which is stillthe same.
14:13:50 <Belugas> yu see, oil rig is a bi headed creature.
14:14:12 <Belugas> so industry has changed, not the station
14:14:26 <Belugas> so it's a state of fact
14:15:09 <lugo> but i am not xiong and i pretty much can cope with one station tile saying oil rig :D
14:22:06 <Belugas> sir Alberth, may I greet you hello in this channel as well? THat would only increase the ratio of wavings vs conversations hehehe!
14:24:39 * Belugas waves hello to Alberth!
14:24:46 <Alberth> although other channels seem to be more worried about that :)
14:30:17 <Belugas> ho... 1001 posts... congrats Alberth!
14:30:56 <Alberth> it only took 3 years :)
14:37:26 * Belugas reads with amusement the post where the user suggests to move from 15 companies to .. say... 30...
14:38:08 <Alberth> a very expensive bit :)
14:38:27 <SpComb> or is it a bitmask of some kind?
14:38:38 <Rubidium> it's a bitmask in quite a few places
14:39:22 <Alberth> expensive in the sense that a lot of code needs to be changed to make room
14:40:22 <Terkhen> what if in a year he still hasn't resetted his server and he needs 256 companies?
14:40:44 <Rubidium> you should suggest using toyland instead
14:42:07 <SpComb> give them an option as to what map array feature bits to remove to make room for the company bits
14:43:07 <planetmaker> just add two bytes to the map array. There all those bits may go ;-)
14:43:21 <planetmaker> and make all paramters int64
14:44:19 <planetmaker> hm, I forgot to mention that I have no clue. And on that basis I infer that it must be easy
14:45:39 * Rubidium ponders making a patch with a million companies
14:46:19 <Rubidium> ... just only the first 15 can actually own or build something besides money, or see their vehicle list
14:46:33 <planetmaker> minor inconvenience
14:46:35 <Terkhen> but what if in a thousand years he STILL hasn't resetted the server and he needs even more companies?
14:47:53 <Belugas> us or our descendants...
14:48:12 <planetmaker> being right and getting right in court are different things.
14:48:16 <Rubidium> we don't even give warranty on the app, so just say this falls outside of the warranty :)
14:48:26 <Alberth> Terkhen: we add a patch that crashes the program
14:48:31 <planetmaker> inflicted mental pain or so.
14:48:44 <planetmaker> Having seen SmatZ cry yesterday, I'm sure it's also his fault
14:48:51 <planetmaker> (not SmatZ's, the other guys)
14:49:37 <Terkhen> another one of those crashing patches? they difficult to pass as innocent commits
14:50:16 <Belugas> one liner commits can have ripple effects for a long time :)
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14:52:35 <Rubidium> Terkhen: really? SmatZ's pool patches seemed quite innocent
14:54:09 * Belugas is now thinking about some auto-stuff patch...
14:55:40 <Belugas> wrong... i'm thinking about an empty mug...
14:56:09 <planetmaker> is it half full or half empty?
14:57:14 * Alberth pours more coffee in the mug
14:57:37 <fjb> How emptyful the world is today.
15:07:28 <Belugas> it WAS horribly dry and empty :D
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15:56:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21256 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#4189]: Clients weren't always notified when the connection was lost
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16:19:28 <Belugas> i'm bored to death and i can't even do something meaningful :S
16:22:19 <Belugas> and there's not much activity on forums either
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16:28:51 <Hirundo> Belugas: Could a tunnel/bridge related patch relieve your boredom?
16:28:57 <fjb> Belugas: Invent something.
16:32:19 <Belugas> maybe to both of you :)
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16:51:02 <IchGuckLive> Hi all from Rainy germany
16:51:29 <IchGuckLive> Question how do i see how many of eatch products a trainstation carrys
16:51:53 <IchGuckLive> i only see cole nothing els is thias connectet to someting i got to enable
16:53:11 <IchGuckLive> is it posible to get a info of the influence room after the station wars build ?
16:53:47 <planetmaker> not directly. but you can hover with the station build tool over existing station tiles
16:57:42 * fjb advises IchGuckLive to use a translation service.
17:00:09 * Rubidium advises Rubidium to prepare some dinner.
17:02:26 <fjb> Enjoy your meal, Rubidium.
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17:08:06 * Eddi|zuHause must stop Eddi|zuHause from advising IchGuckLive to visit the german forum
17:09:19 <__ln___> IchGuckLive: schreiben sie deutsch genauso schlecht als englisch?
17:11:45 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: alswie?
17:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: or have you learned german in Hessen? :p
17:12:44 <__ln___> yes, it says "wie", it's just encrypted as "als" to distract the intelligence agencies.
17:12:56 <planetmaker> nah. Thee must not complain. He just speaketh the true form ;-)
17:14:21 <__ln___> 'thee' is also some singular second person form, but which
17:14:37 <planetmaker> maybe. My Shakespear English is not quite up to date. As much as a Shakespear English can ever be up to date, though
17:15:41 <__ln___> Shakespeare's sonnet is called "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day" indeed.
17:16:18 <__ln___> is it like... akkusativ?
17:23:38 <Samu> there's not even a page about original acceleration model
17:24:07 <avdg> there is also much work to keep the wiki accurate
17:24:26 <IchGuckLive> the German forum has no irc channel
17:24:58 <planetmaker> indeed it has not
17:25:11 <planetmaker> Samu: it's a wiki
17:25:17 <IchGuckLive> so its not a prefert game in germany
17:26:10 <Terkhen> Samu: it is a wiki, if that information is missing you should add it
17:26:37 <Samu> me? I don't know the mechanics, I'm not a developer
17:26:51 <Samu> there's so much details for realistic train acceleration
17:28:35 <Terkhen> you don't have to be a developer; anyone can edit it
17:29:02 <Samu> the corners, how it accelerates
17:29:15 <Terkhen> in fact, I doubt that the realistic acceleration info in the wiki was written by developers
17:30:11 <Samu> never touched a wiki anyway
17:30:27 <Samu> I did once, ended up banned
17:31:41 <Samu> it was a starcraft wiki, with outdated psionic storm damage against mutalisks
17:32:23 <Samu> the full duration of psionic storm can kill a whole pack of mutalisks <-- false
17:32:38 <Terkhen> then we can conclude that the original acceleration model is missing from the wiki because no one is interested enough to write an article about it
17:33:44 <Samu> stupid noobs editing wikis
17:36:27 <AveiMil> Can you register channels and stuff on oftc.net?
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17:38:48 <Samu> wikipedia wasn't this complext before
17:39:52 <avdg> samu: its actually a mix of wiki style and html
17:42:41 <Samu> for being useless once moe
17:43:20 <avdg> and for edits: don't force yourself to do it
17:58:08 <V453000> Samu: original acceleration is for noobs, rather
18:00:06 <Rubidium> Hirundo: regarding the patch you linked; in the first chunk, wouldn't it be easier to just do v->track = DDTDTB(DTDD(v->direction)) instead of checking GetTunnelBridgeDirection(v->tile) == DTDD(v->direction) and then doing DDTDTB(GTBD(v->tile))?
18:00:34 <Rubidium> that bit basically already proves that GTBD(v->tile) can be replaced with DTDD(v->direction) there as well
18:00:59 <Rubidium> and then both branches of the if are the same (except the assert)
18:03:37 * Rubidium waves to michi's older sibling :)
18:06:01 <Hirundo> The patch isn't really finished, RVs and ships should get the same treatment
18:09:52 <Hirundo> I first need to wrap my head around the RV Controller, though
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18:14:43 <IchGuckLive> one more quwstion : is it posibel to change the text size of the worldmap ? i can not read the items
18:15:41 <Belugas> there is test on the world map?
18:16:00 <Xaroth> or the legend with the colours and what they mean
18:16:04 <Belugas> there is not a FAQ on wiki on fonts recently discused?
18:16:10 <IchGuckLive> no in the map that shows where al the stuff is
18:16:51 <Belugas> yeah... that SHOULD be covered on the FAQ
18:17:25 <IchGuckLive> where are this FAQ on the wiki ?
18:18:04 <avdg> I just discovered there isn't a FAQ about the wiki too
18:18:26 <avdg> well, the wiki has some hidden spots ;-)
18:21:00 <IchGuckLive> is this also fo minimap small size ?
18:21:15 <Zuu> avdg: The Village Pump links there.
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18:22:14 <avdg> it may be linked directly from the homepage imo
18:22:16 <Zuu> Both which are linked to on thte front page.
18:22:42 <avdg> at least, it needs more attention
18:22:57 <Zuu> Most parts of the wiki needs attention
18:23:28 <avdg> there is too much work atm to do that (translations)
18:28:45 <IchGuckLive> Belugas: did not work at the minimap front size
18:29:02 <IchGuckLive> i changed small from 8 to 12
18:30:15 <Terkhen> IchGuckLive: the tutorial is probably not clear enough, but besides changing size you also need to specify a correct value small_font
18:30:58 <IchGuckLive> this is clear but there is no front set in the intirer config
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18:32:36 <IchGuckLive> trying ones more with all the fronts setting
18:36:41 <IchGuckLive> ok i will find a solution
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18:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21257 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 6 changes by kasakg
18:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:45:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
18:45:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 63 changes by BlinK_
18:47:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21258 /trunk/src/lang/ (arabic_egypt.txt greek.txt ukrainian.txt): -Fix: remove strings with the U+FFFD "replacement character"
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18:58:56 <fonsinchen> I seem to remember I didn't recompile last time and I had loads of savegames to compare between client and server
19:00:06 <Rubidium> but that only stores stuff at the server side
19:00:31 <Rubidium> though you can rerun the "command stream" that gets logged, but that needs some source modding IIRC
19:03:51 <Rubidium> then by carefully stripping enough from the begin of the command stream and loading the right savegame you should be able to reproduce the desync
19:04:28 <Rubidium> and if the stripping fails, you can always start the server let it run till the moment the client should join get it to pause and only continue when that client joined
19:05:06 <fonsinchen> sounds interesting. thanks
19:10:34 <fonsinchen> So if the server is running with ddesync=3 and I am running a client with ddsync=3 and a desync occurs I should have all useful data I can get to debug it, right?
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19:14:59 <Arie-> quickly had to install mIRC
19:15:43 <Arie-> inititally it said "unknown command" like response
19:15:57 <Arie-> but that was when i used -ddsync=3
19:21:08 <fonsinchen> Uh, what was that?
19:21:34 <Arie-> because desync=0 i restarted the server
19:22:01 <fonsinchen> Are you going to run it with or without desync debugging now?
19:22:51 <Arie-> but i think the client and server both have to be set to -ddesync=3
19:23:11 <Arie-> so i restarted the server and client (although server probably wasn't necessary)
19:23:11 <fonsinchen> I have a client with ddesync=3 running
19:23:33 <Arie-> well when i entered in my console it said desync=3
19:24:07 <Arie-> i can't see what the server is set to that way I think
19:24:17 <fonsinchen> Of course. Stupid me. It doesn't show the server debug levels but the client debug levels
19:24:33 <Rubidium> if you're running it on both the server and client, be *very sure they are not writing their commands log to the same file and their savegames
19:25:00 <Arie-> no these are two distinct machines
19:25:05 <Arie-> but thanks for the heads up
19:25:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21259 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Split var43 into var43 (animation stage) and var47 (object colour)
19:25:49 <fonsinchen> you should get a lot of dmp_cmds_*.sav in the server's autosave folder
19:27:35 <fonsinchen> if we get a desync please send all the contents of the autosave folder to me.
19:27:57 <Rubidium> then I hope the desync happens soon :)
19:28:15 <Arie-> i'll probably use dropbox or something like that
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19:28:25 <fonsinchen> Do you have a better idea, Rubidium?
19:28:54 <fonsinchen> btw, watch your hard disk space, Arie- ...
19:29:16 <Arie-> thanks for the heads up, i, already moving stuff away from that drive
19:29:17 <Rubidium> get the command log first, then figure out when the client that desynced joined
19:30:08 <Rubidium> if time-of-desync and time-of-join are close together get progressively earlier savegames from before the join, e.g. 30 days, 60 days, 120 days, 240 days, 480 days, 960 days
19:30:21 <Arie-> so moving a dvd of slash away
19:30:25 <Rubidium> then just try to reproduce it with the 30 days before join savegame etc.
19:30:56 <Arie-> then i should be ok for a while
19:31:00 <Rubidium> in any case... you should be able to reproduce the desync without the client on the server
19:31:33 <Rubidium> this as the command log logs the sync seeds as well
19:31:41 <Rubidium> so it can check the sync seeds while re-running
19:31:55 <Arie-> but gonna watch a movie in half an hour with some flat mates
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19:32:20 <Rubidium> so (somewhat) binary you can search for the first savegame that's not desyncing
19:33:01 <Arie-> ` doens't work to get the console out of the way
19:33:04 <fonsinchen> OK, I got the first half about searching the latest common save
19:33:04 <Rubidium> on the other hand, when the join and desync are far apart you should be able to reproduce it with the savegames in between
19:33:49 <Rubidium> no quite common save, but more the first save which "desyncs" when you're rerunning it with the command stream
19:34:24 <Rubidium> though... if it's something related to threads being scheduled differently then this method won't really help you
19:34:36 <fonsinchen> so I connect a client to the server and run the command stream through the server with your patch, right?
19:35:45 <fonsinchen> If the client desyncs I have a combination of save and command stream position I can investigate further.
19:35:50 <fonsinchen> Is that the point?
19:36:01 <Rubidium> yes, but you don't need to connect the client in most cases to figure out the minimal desync case
19:36:29 <fonsinchen> How can I determine a desync without connecting a client?
19:36:45 <Rubidium> the command stream contains the sync seeds of the original server
19:37:05 <Rubidium> the savegames the server made are comparable to the savegames sent to the clients
19:37:30 <Rubidium> so when rerunning the command stream you are in effect the client
19:37:38 <Rubidium> with the benefit of fast-forward
19:38:10 <AveiMil> Anyone want to play some PIGM on a dedicated server? Looking for ~5 to start in 1950 with
19:38:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21260 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Codechange: make strgen more stringent w.r.t. the allowed characters in strings
19:40:30 <fonsinchen> The sync seed is the next random number at some point in the game, right?
19:40:54 <Rubidium> (or the last random number)
19:42:37 <fonsinchen> So I run the command stream through the server and it checks those sync seeds all the time and reports if they don't match.
19:44:15 <fonsinchen> So if I've got a nondeterministic behaviour it should turn up if I try often enough.
19:46:53 <fonsinchen> Even if that's related to threading I should be able to pinpoint it if I try on different machines with different scheduling.
20:01:16 <Alberth> nothing /ignore cannot solve
20:01:55 <AveiMil> it's not like the channel is being spammed, just asking if anyone wants to have a game
20:03:41 <fjb> Once there was only one advocate who offerend his service by mailing to random people.
20:03:51 <Terkhen> yes, it also fits my definition of spam
20:08:40 * Rubidium ponders flaming Prorail... saying "no trains in Utrecht as the firefighters said so" when there was a fire in the building with the controls for the signals and switches. Given the fact they have to check how much damage has been done I reckon a part of the control system has caught fire. So yes, it's the firefighter's fault they're not allowed to do their work :)
20:09:05 <Arie-> fonsinchen, i'm gonna watch a movie with my flat mates
20:13:04 <AveiMil> Is there any way to increase font size in chat in OpenTTD?
20:15:50 <AveiMil> yeah, I already got small_font = C:\Windows\Fonts\verdana.ttf
20:16:00 <AveiMil> but it dosent' seem to affect the chat font
20:16:48 <AveiMil> ah, that's because the chat font is not the small font
20:20:13 <AveiMil> hmm, can you set the thickness? like bold?
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20:20:57 <avdg> AveiMil: some fonts have a separate fat version
20:23:30 <AveiMil> guess everthing that used medium font style woudl be affected then
20:23:37 <AveiMil> medium_size = 16 was much better with default font
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21:01:31 <__ln___> Eddi|zuHause: besides, the prince of Hessen was chosen to be king of Finland, so...
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21:58:14 <jpcooper> I'm trying to fully understand what the definition of block is. From http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals, I see "A block of track consists of all track tiles reachable from a given piece of track without crossing over signals".
21:58:51 <jpcooper> In the "Limitations" section of "Building Presignals", "An important point to note with exit signals is that a green exit signal will trigger a green on the entry pre-signal at the beginning of the block even if it is not actually possible for a train to get to that exit signal because of the track layout (as in the image to the right with a train entering on the bottom track). This can ruin
21:58:52 <jpcooper> more complicated presignaling setups, so care needs to be taken with planning." is written
21:59:30 <jpcooper> the "even if it is not actually possible for a train to get to that exit signal because of the track layout" part conufuses me. Are two different definitions of reachability being used?
22:01:50 <Belugas> maybe two different types of signals ?
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22:03:24 <frosch123> jpcooper: the latter is right, the former is wrong
22:03:40 <jpcooper> I don't understand why the top exit signal should have a bearing on the bottom entry signal if it is not possible to reach the top exit signal when going through the bottom entry signal
22:04:52 <jpcooper> frosch123, so what in fact is a block?
22:05:50 <frosch123> all rails of one player and one railtype touching each other and not separated by signals
22:06:01 <frosch123> though the "one railtype" might not be true anymore
22:06:07 <jpcooper> great. That makes sense
22:07:38 <jpcooper> also I get the idea that bi-directional lines aren't so common. How can I get a train to choose the correct path at a junction if there are two-way signals?
22:08:14 <frosch123> two-way signals are _very_ uncommon :p
22:08:52 <Belugas> concrete powder to transport tonight
22:08:56 <jpcooper> so do people normally lay one rail for each direction in a route?
22:09:16 <Belugas> that's the case most of the time, jpcooper
22:09:21 <frosch123> use normal path signals instead for single rail connections
22:10:31 <jpcooper> okay. I haven't read about those yet
22:10:37 <jpcooper> thanks all for the help
22:10:43 <frosch123> orientate the path signal so the save waiting point is on the track, and not on the entry/exit side
22:11:03 <Zuu> jpcooper: As far as I've been informed, in Germany they have only capability to run trains on the "right" track, but not on the wrong one in case of unbalance in the network.
22:11:38 <Zuu> Other countries do have signals and switches for running eg two north going trains in parallel on the tracks in case it is needed.
22:12:38 <frosch123> trains cannot overtake each other on directly neighboured tracks
22:12:38 <Zuu> But generally in OpenTTD most people build tracks as eg. germany do.
22:12:46 <frosch123> they fall of the track that way
22:13:09 <jpcooper> right I understand. I hadn't really thought about the real life case
22:13:10 <frosch123> so directly neighboured tracks can only be operated in opposite directions
22:14:10 <Zuu> Oh and for other countries than Sweden and Germany I don't know, so I can't really say what is most common in Europe or the rest of the world.
22:14:49 <Rubidium> Zuu: oh, here just half the trains don't run or something at all :)
22:15:21 <Zuu> because of lack of maintanence?
22:15:43 <Rubidium> in effect I would say yes :)
22:16:20 <Rubidium> there was some fire and apparantly either the signal/switch control systems got too hot or they got too wet
22:16:38 * Zuu hopes for the best of people in our captital that the brakes on the metro will work this winter. :-)
22:16:59 <Rubidium> so now the central control for the Dutch railways is down... and it'll probably be down tomorrow as wel
22:17:27 <Rubidium> but then... there not that many people going by train
22:17:33 <jpcooper> what's the reasoning for delivering over longer distances giving higher returns? Is there any other kind of penalty?
22:17:43 <Rubidium> and most routes aren't fully saturated yet
22:17:46 <Zuu> Doesn't sound too good if the central control is down..
22:19:35 <Rubidium> Zuu: nah, interesting fact is that the same system was down like two years ago and that took days as well
22:20:10 <Rubidium> and apparantly they haven't figured out how to not make a big mess of it
22:21:32 <Rubidium> if only tomorrow would be a Tuesday or Thursday with a sudden unpredicted massive snow storm in the early afternoon :)
22:22:14 <Zuu> and you would sit home and watch it all happen :-)
22:22:47 <Rubidium> sadly enough I would
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22:44:47 <planetmaker> [23:06] <frosch123> though the "one railtype" might not be true anymore <-- has never been
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23:09:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21261 /trunk/src/table/roadveh_movement.h: -Codechange: beat some sense into some variable names
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