IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-11-06
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01:31:06 <xiong> Well, this is strange. I wanted to replace the engine on a train -- just one train -- without disturbing its orders. But trains seem to be numbered according to the engine; move the engine and the number moves with it.
01:32:01 <xiong> So, I added the new engine to the old train (MU); then, I took away the old engine. For this to work, I had to shuffle the engines around; otherwise, the old engine took the train number with it anyway.
01:34:09 <xiong> This train was originally part of a group of trains, with shared orders. The jiggery-pokery somehow got the orders cleared and unshared. But that's not the curious thing.
01:36:25 <xiong> The group originally had 4 trains and then, after this exchange, only 3 -- although I could still see all 4 clearly in the list. So, I took the trains out, one by one. Now the group is empty and contains 65,535 trains. Please don't tell me why 65,535; I know why 65,535. I don't know why not 0.
01:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> someone tell him that it's a real bug and he should probably report it.
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03:32:01 <xiong> Ahhh! I finally found autoreplace for wagons. You hear that Qantourisc?
03:33:39 <xiong> If I could *see* stuff better, I wouldn't have missed it. Look in the lower-left where it says "Replacing Engines". Click.
04:23:27 <xiong> Now there's an interesting little oops. If you autoreplace a full rail car, the new car goes out of depot full, also. Curiously, the load is shifted to completely fill the train from the head end, leaving the newer, larger capacity cars toward the rear, empty.
04:23:46 <xiong> Maybe not oops; I should say merely, curiosity.
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06:56:08 <Qantourisc> xiong: in windows magnifier in linux kmag
06:58:24 <xiong> Running Ubuntu; using GNOME. Don't care for a lot of the way KDE does stuff, even though sometimes I run kstuff anyway, because it's what I've got. I'm using Virtual Magnifying Glass, which works well enough. My feeling is, if you need to pull out such a tool, you should be trying to fix something else.
06:58:44 <Qantourisc> but when running it from cli it's clumsy
06:58:54 <xiong> I saw somewhere that it might be possible to change fonts, maybe even font size.
07:00:01 <xiong> My real issue with visibility isn't about most of the features; they work well enough, between squinting, glass, and just knowing what they look like generally.
07:01:19 <xiong> There are some real bad choices, though. I see two engines; they are different models but look alike. Under the glass, I have detected what seems to be a difference between them of about 7 pixels -- 4 on one, 3 on the other, in different places. All black.
07:03:02 <xiong> Right now, I'm not worried about the UI. I've overcome various limitations and learned a lot. Now, I find I'm hamstrung by my own poor choices.
07:04:11 <xiong> I've been playing a 256-tile square map. It's intensely crowded. I don't see any way to service all these industries and the towns just keep growing. Doesn't seem right just to throttle the towns.
07:04:52 <xiong> Also, I'm awash in cash -- have been since about 1860.
07:05:15 <Qantourisc> yea, that botters me most :)
07:05:21 <xiong> I'm thinking that I should start over on a bigger, sparser map; maybe add a challenge of some sort.
07:06:02 <xiong> Well, town growth is good. You certainly can halt it at some point or along some line.
07:07:42 <xiong> After 55 years of play, with growth driven by nothing except some horse omnibus service and a cheap rail line, my biggest town has grown over 42K pop. What might happen if I gave it decent service?
07:08:25 <xiong> 50 years of sincere pax service, without artificial bounds, it would likely fill the map all by itself.
07:09:35 <Qantourisc> next round i'll be in increasing the costs
07:09:46 <Qantourisc> so that a unsuccessfull line costs me :)
07:09:54 <Qantourisc> to prevent huges profits :)
07:10:13 <Qantourisc> so you need to dig in like like a tick
07:10:20 <Qantourisc> before it expands :S
07:12:54 <xiong> From what I see, you want to reserve some space about 8 tiles away from every town center, as soon as you can. Lay down dummy rail and let the town grow through it. But reserve a fair good plot, maybe as much as 16x16; and at least a 4 tile wide straight aisle in and out.
07:13:17 <xiong> That's every town, including the little ghost towns, because they all grow and they all grow big.
07:14:48 <xiong> The other thing is, I got feeder line religion. From now on, mainline handles only traffic from one big, transfer station to another. And the feeder loops are completely cut off, so feeder trains can't escape onto the main, even when ordered to depot.
07:15:07 <Qantourisc> but you really only need 1 town if you don't care about passangers :)
07:15:46 <xiong> Pax important. Not only a destination for food and goods. Pax fuels your early money.
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07:20:17 <xiong> I've been playing with *reduced* breakdowns?? "Oh gods, if this is the best of all possible worlds, what must the others be like?"
07:20:31 <Qantourisc> they brake down more :D
07:21:44 <__ln__> Qantourisc: no, they break down more.
07:23:10 <xiong> __ln__, If they break, they brake.
07:24:54 <Qantourisc> ps do you know a way to make sure i don't haul empty load ?
07:25:01 <Qantourisc> like switch wagons ?
07:25:10 <Qantourisc> ofcours they will stay at the wrong position :)
07:25:18 <Qantourisc> so that can't be done either :/
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07:29:26 <Qantourisc> hmm only refittable trains can use other wagons
07:31:35 <Qantourisc> oil rigs are also fun
07:31:40 <Qantourisc> it's just, they are on the see :)
07:37:24 <Qantourisc> xiong: next time i'll use either a feeding system
07:37:28 <Qantourisc> or a better mainine
07:38:01 <Qantourisc> better mainline means: LOADS of space :)
07:38:34 <Qantourisc> and only feeders over short distances
07:38:46 <Qantourisc> then all the goods get put on the mainline
07:38:49 <xiong> I spent quite a bit of time building a couple of symmetric 4 way interchanges.
07:38:50 <Qantourisc> and the mainline does the distance
07:39:06 <Qantourisc> i don't have the space for those in this map :)
07:39:13 <Qantourisc> the towns are closely packet :D
07:39:14 <xiong> Now, I think that was a mistake. The mainline should not have any branches or loops.
07:39:32 <Qantourisc> yes mainlines are sensitive to stuff :D
07:39:45 <Qantourisc> if you want i can send you a screenshot of some shit :D
07:39:56 <xiong> So, all the interchanges are asymmetric: They are just to get trains to the big transfer stations.
07:40:35 <Qantourisc> what is a giant screenshot :D
07:40:57 <Qantourisc> it's ALLL of it :D
07:40:59 <xiong> If the mainline has no loops or branches -- if it is simply a great big circle -- then there is no need for symmetric interchanges.
07:41:36 <Qantourisc> let me reduce that screenshot size so you can open it :D
07:41:43 <xiong> Don't worry about it, Qantourisc. Fry's has 2 Tb drives on sale.
07:42:01 <Qantourisc> but do you also have 3.7GB free ram to spare ?
07:42:47 <Qantourisc> if so i'll send it as is
07:43:02 <Qantourisc> i recommend you let me scale it down a notch :)
07:43:19 <xiong> Ho ho. I'll take a hit, thanks.
07:43:46 <xiong> As in, you can step on it, man, thanks.
07:44:02 <xiong> HTTP, if you can figure out where to put it.
07:44:08 <Qantourisc> i'm also not familiar with the expressiong "step on it"
07:45:20 <Qantourisc> look out it's 40MB PNG file :)
07:45:30 <xiong> Both terms are drug slang. A 'hit' is to inhale marijuana. To 'step on' drugs, usually cocaine or heroin, is to dilute them, often with mannitose.
07:45:57 <Qantourisc> so you want the small version ?
07:46:15 <Qantourisc> cause this is the hugamongo version
07:46:41 <Qantourisc> i don't know slang
07:46:42 <xiong> 40 Mb should be fine. 4 Gb, not so much.
07:46:57 <Qantourisc> i'll schrink it :D
07:48:02 <Qantourisc> are you intrested in long lines but simple ones ?
07:50:11 <Qantourisc> xiong: i got a line running from 1 size to the other side
07:50:18 <Qantourisc> i think i can trim that off right ?
07:50:23 <xiong> Ah. Well, let me see this.
07:50:24 <Qantourisc> because it's not verry intresting :)
07:50:53 <xiong> Don't cut anything. Just take a 50% reduction. Be sure to save in indexed mode.
07:51:16 <xiong> You're in GIMP, I hope.
07:51:56 <Qantourisc> 50% reduction = 1GB of ram
07:52:00 <xiong> So, change the mode of the image to indexed. You should, theoretically, use the "correct" OTTD palette but I don't care.
07:52:50 <xiong> GIF is an indexed format and probably will give you better compression than PNG. However, PNG also has an indexed mode.
07:53:04 <Qantourisc> i'll also get filesize down :)
07:53:21 <Qantourisc> resizing 4GB is quite the work :)
07:54:03 <Qantourisc> or do i resize using another interpolation ?
07:54:11 <xiong> Indexing means that each pixel is represented by a single byte (or less, if the palette is 128 colors or fewer). A regular web RGB color spec uses a full byte for each of R, G, and B; so it's at least 3 times as big.
07:54:47 <xiong> Interpolation doesn't make much difference when downsizing. You're not interpolating; you're deleting.
07:54:48 <Qantourisc> i just didn't know you mean color indexing :)
07:54:56 <Qantourisc> i was thinking databse indexing :)
07:55:51 <xiong> Also, using an indexed mode, you can't really interpolate; there are no intermediate colors.
07:56:30 <xiong> This is a good thing if you're going for high compression. One of the benefits of indexing is that it tends to eliminate small differences, so compression works better.
07:56:36 <Qantourisc> it was already in indexed mode :)
07:56:43 <Qantourisc> that's why the scaling was so ugly :D
07:56:51 <xiong> You might also try JPEG and really jam down on the compression.
07:57:23 <xiong> Don't worry about ugly.
07:57:32 <Qantourisc> right now i'm happy i decided to go nuts on ram in my system :D
07:57:51 <Qantourisc> (when rending and stuff i often hitted my memory limit :D)
07:58:15 <Qantourisc> so i put in a sane amount of affordable memory :)
07:58:36 <Qantourisc> now i can render stuff at high resolutions without killing anyone :)
07:58:49 <Qantourisc> pitty gimp uses only 1 core :/
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08:14:41 <xiong> I think my mistake was thinking of this as a game. Maybe it's better thought of as a model layout.
08:15:52 <xiong> So, this new map, I started with few towns, few industries. I'll let those suggest track layout. But they won't get in the way. After the track is laid in, then I can fill in any empty spots with well-chosen buildings.
08:16:08 <xiong> It's not as though I can't put in another town somewhere.
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08:40:02 <xiong> Mm. Don't use the ECS stuff. Think it might conflict with something. Got enough going.
08:43:15 <xiong> Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to qantourisc.afraid.org:8080
08:45:28 <Qantourisc> DNS update fails :/
08:45:42 <Qantourisc> 84.196.144.220 it is then
08:46:08 <Qantourisc> i mean that ip adress
08:50:01 <George> I see nothing related to ECS on that screenshot. What made you to make such an advice? [11:40:13] <xiong> Mm. Don't use the ECS stuff. Think it might conflict with something. Got enough going.
08:50:25 <Qantourisc> George: just found out about it :)
08:50:57 <George> and what problem do you have with ECS?
08:51:02 <xiong> George, It's not advice; I wouldn't presume. I left out the pronoun.
08:51:38 <xiong> Qantourisc, Still no loading.
08:52:17 <xiong> I'm trying the one ending .56?
08:54:25 <Qantourisc> xiong: so what did you try ? :D
08:54:48 <xiong> A lot of stuff, none important. I see it now.
08:55:03 <xiong> Do you want comments, worship, or curses?
08:58:31 <Qantourisc> the one you feel is valid for this mess :)
08:59:36 <xiong> Um. Well, interesting. Definitely not how I started out. I realize that some of this stuff, you're experimenting. Feel free to ignore obvious comments, foolishly made, and apologies in advance.
08:59:57 <xiong> I like the mainline *under* the town. It's perhaps impractical but it's... nifty.
09:01:02 <xiong> I don't like the mainline hard by the NE shore. That's pointless. You can only hook up to it from the SW side, of course.
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09:02:00 <xiong> Bear in mind that cargo should be delivered by the fastest, shortest route. You don't want to go away from the center to put stuff on the main.
09:02:30 <xiong> Ideally, the main -- so I theorize -- should be a big, dumb loop; but not too big.
09:03:32 <xiong> There's some tradeoff between quick trips from one side to the other; and from two adjacent areas -- areas still far away enough from each other to go through the main.
09:04:37 <xiong> Mm, I don't like dead-end stations. Departures overlap arrivals. If you're involved in an industry chain, you could even have a lockup.
09:04:55 <xiong> However, I admit yours are done very neatly.
09:06:53 <xiong> There's a section near the center I don't quite understand. From the double main through a couple towns to an interchange near the big lake S.
09:07:18 <xiong> Seems all traffic on that line is forced through those stations.
09:08:06 <xiong> Perhaps you're just thinking, Oh, this is only pax service and I don't care if the trains always stop when they pass through station.
09:08:40 <xiong> But freight will go that way unless you make it impossible.
09:09:23 <xiong> That same interchange near the S lake -- why 4 stations hard by the interchange?
09:10:00 <Qantourisc> you mean the station directly above the lake ?
09:11:08 <Qantourisc> could make some notes on the image to tell you where stuff is going :)
09:11:15 <xiong> S lake, the one near the cut-off S corner. To its N, a town, 2-3 mines, a power plant.
09:11:48 <xiong> There are 4 collections of station platforms there.
09:11:59 <xiong> Why not 1 or 2 big ones?
09:12:45 <xiong> Um, in fact, I see sliding around the W of the town to a 5th station just N of it.
09:13:03 <Qantourisc> you mean: the coal mine, power plant, 2x iron mine
09:13:16 <Qantourisc> max size stations 4x4
09:14:32 <xiong> That's kinda... Well, I tell you; after this last game, I swore off 4-tile-long stations. Engine, caboose, two freight cars, and you're done.
09:15:24 <xiong> Dunno why you chose those conditions. I built 6 long, but then I weakened in a few places and built 4. Terribly regret it now.
09:16:15 <Qantourisc> xiong: because i set it as a challange :)
09:16:20 <xiong> I have all the options on: Disjoint stations, irregular stations, and max spread at 18.
09:16:23 <Qantourisc> i didn't "choice" it
09:16:35 <Qantourisc> i limmited the station size in the advanced settings
09:16:48 <xiong> I would find that unbearable.
09:16:52 <Qantourisc> that's why there are 4 stations :)
09:17:46 <xiong> You're not playing with FIRS, ISRS, or TTRS, are you?
09:18:08 <Qantourisc> what are those ? :)
09:18:33 <xiong> Those are NewGRFs, all popular; and play nice with each other.
09:18:56 <Qantourisc> what do they stand for so i can look at them :)
09:19:00 <xiong> In order, basically, new industries, new stations, new towns.
09:19:09 <Qantourisc> BTW is there an easy way to add GPRS in bulk ?
09:19:54 <Qantourisc> so what are they short for so i can DL the GRFS's
09:20:23 <xiong> Well, do online content.
09:20:59 <Qantourisc> FIRS i found ISRS not
09:21:15 <andythenorth_> search "industrial stations"
09:21:25 <planetmaker> the usual abbreviation is also ISR
09:21:33 <xiong> FIRS, I dunno, F-? Industry Replacement Set. IRSR, Industrial Renewal Station Set. TTRS, Total Town Replacement Set.
09:21:38 <Qantourisc> ISR just stalllsed
09:21:55 <andythenorth_> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - recurses...
09:22:00 <Qantourisc> so how do i add GRPFS in bulk
09:22:15 <Qantourisc> thank you all GRFS's recommended by xiong found
09:22:20 <xiong> Easier to browse the list of them than to type the names... which all sound alike anyway.
09:22:52 <xiong> To go with above, a new vehicle set or five.
09:23:42 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: my two favourite settings:
09:23:54 <xiong> I've got NARS, which does road and rail; FISH; and a number of the AV8 sets.
09:24:12 <Qantourisc> do i have to add them all 1 by one? :)
09:24:17 <planetmaker> swedish houses, heqs, firs, fish, ukrs or nars and an appropriate townname newgrf and a couple of station newgrfs
09:24:29 <planetmaker> or: all Japanese Newgrfs and a couple of station newgrfs
09:24:34 <xiong> Wait, I think I lied about NARS. That may only be rail. eGRVTS does road.
09:25:07 <planetmaker> oh. add variable snowline and swedish rails to the first selection of newgrfs ;-)
09:25:18 <xiong> Qantourisc, You do this all from the splash screen under Check Online Content and NewGRF Settings.
09:25:38 <xiong> Be sure you have openttd nightly.
09:25:39 <Qantourisc> xiong: i know, but then i need to activate them no ?
09:25:54 <planetmaker> don't do it on a running game
09:26:01 <xiong> Yes. It's easy, sort of. Check the readme's for parameter settings.
09:26:02 <planetmaker> select first. Then create a new game
09:26:20 <xiong> Yah, don't even think about shoving all that stuff into an existing savegame.
09:27:52 <xiong> I find the pax stations are quite boring. I have Rural Stations and Canadian Stations. They don't fight with ISRS, unlike other sets that... might.
09:29:15 <xiong> Past that point, well, I'm the wrong guy to ask. There's about 6 NewGRFs in very heavy use and I think I've mentioned them.
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09:39:57 <planetmaker> separate and mandatory
09:40:01 <Alberth> the 'grf' block is used for identifying the NewGRF you are making
09:40:21 <planetmaker> AveiMil: you might just as well look at one of the existing NML newgrfs
09:40:27 <Alberth> ie it should be worldwide unique for every NewGRF you make :)
09:40:37 <planetmaker> IMHO they can give quite well an idea how things work :-)
09:42:34 <AveiMil> where do I find one of the existing NML newgrfs?
09:43:08 <Qantourisc> BTW how do multiplayer work ? it's a "world" you host ?
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09:43:19 <planetmaker> on the devzone. SwedishRails, OpenGFX+Trains, OpenGFX+RV, OpenGFX+Airports
09:44:10 <planetmaker> Maybe also the (discontinued) OpenGFX+ repository is helpful as it's not as complicated as the other four projects
09:44:58 <AveiMil> like that? that dosent look familiar from the documentation
09:45:11 <planetmaker> that's part of the build environment
09:45:28 <planetmaker> it just helps to build the newgrf automatically
09:45:42 <Terkhen> the nml code is in the src and lang folders
09:45:58 <planetmaker> what Terkhen says
09:46:31 <planetmaker> the newgrfs are usually defined in the header.pnml
09:46:47 <planetmaker> and then subsequently other files are used to describe the single features
09:47:41 <Qantourisc> I'm confused about online ?
09:47:54 <Qantourisc> every time i join a server there seems to be nonone ?
09:48:02 <AveiMil> Why is it .pnml and not .nml?
09:48:31 <planetmaker> because those files as they are in the repository still need preprocessing, thus cannot be understood by nmlc directly
09:48:58 <Alberth> Qantourisc: there are normally more servers than players, so a lot of them are empty
09:49:10 <planetmaker> the pre-processing bascially only combines the many source files into one which the compiler can eat
09:49:38 <planetmaker> but when programming it's convenient to keep different things in different files than one with 5000 lines of codee
09:49:44 <Qantourisc> Alberth: the ones with peaple/max - companies/max are the ones with peaple on right ?
09:49:52 <AveiMil> Hmm, okay. So developers split "one .nml" file into several to make it easy to read or something?
09:50:07 <Alberth> Qantourisc: for values other than 0, yes :)
09:50:09 <AveiMil> and then you have to process taht into one .nml file before you use nmlc
09:50:32 <planetmaker> AveiMil: basically yes
09:50:39 <Terkhen> AveiMil: yes, but the build environment should take care of that for you
09:50:52 <planetmaker> that's what the makefile* files are for
09:50:54 <AveiMil> ok, but then for my little basecost mod with nml, all I need is the grf block and the basecost block, and I'll write that up using a simple text editor and saving it as a .nml file and then using nmlc to great the NewGRF?
09:51:08 <Alberth> AveiMil: it uses the C pre-processor for that task
09:51:10 <planetmaker> that will work, yes
09:51:39 <AveiMil> thanks, you'be been helpful!
09:51:45 <AveiMil> a cookie and a star for everyone
09:51:57 <Alberth> AveiMil: the build env is useful for larger grfs
09:52:19 <planetmaker> but I'm biased ;-)
09:52:30 <Alberth> like when you make a toyland FIRS :)
09:53:03 <AveiMil> Some more stupid questions, why is it called a NewGRF? Intuitively when I first saw "NewGRF" in the Check online content menu I thought these were only graphics packs, like new train graphics (images), but it's apperantly more.
09:53:11 <planetmaker> that's like opengfx+airports... rotatable small airport.
09:53:26 <planetmaker> But no-one yet drew the graphics in a rotated fashion for the other airports :-(
09:53:34 <Qantourisc> ps a filter would be nice :D
09:53:35 <planetmaker> Yexo and I would even code them as soon as we get them
09:53:39 <Alberth> they were the graphics at first, but as any open source stuff, it grows and grows and grows and ...
09:53:45 <AveiMil> and you use the word "patch" instead of "mod" which sounds weird. A patch in my mind "fixes" something.
09:54:02 <AveiMil> ...that's already there
09:54:03 <planetmaker> where do we use patch?
09:54:22 <planetmaker> we have settings, we have newgrf, we have ai...
09:54:48 <planetmaker> patches are something which modify the source code and require you to compile successively. In the OpenTTD worlds
09:54:48 <AveiMil> hmm, good question, felt I've been told "why don't you make a patch with that functionality" here in IRC
09:55:10 <Alberth> mod is more a set of user-visible changes imho. A patch is a modification, often much smaller than a mod
09:55:11 <planetmaker> yes. That means: write source code patches. Modify the game as it works
09:55:54 <planetmaker> hm... in my understanding a mod is something which uses existing framework and just applies new content while a patch modifies the programme itself
09:55:55 <AveiMil> ok, that's your definition, that's why I was a bit confused as in my head a patch is like a bug fix not new content.
09:56:14 <AveiMil> but I guess it can be both
09:56:15 <planetmaker> but we can conclude: those words are fuzzy ;-)
09:56:22 <Alberth> about 1 in 5 of the changes we do is a fix :)
09:56:36 <planetmaker> hmmm... not 4 of 5?
09:57:01 <Alberth> no, most things are shuft shuffling code around or re-organizing it
09:57:30 <Alberth> ie 'preparing the code for the next fix or feature' :)
09:57:48 <AveiMil> grfid : "AB\02\03"; <- here I just make shit up?
09:58:04 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 3.04545454545
09:58:06 <AveiMil> and 02 can maximum be 08 since it's a byte?
09:58:34 * andythenorth_ has to draw yet more storage tanks for FIRS :P
09:58:41 <andythenorth_> how many times will I have to do this?
09:59:08 <planetmaker> AveiMil: basically yes, make up an arbitrary sequence of 4 bytes
09:59:33 <AveiMil> The letters can be anything?
09:59:34 <planetmaker> Except... don't ever start with FF unless you know what that means and you mean it
09:59:43 <Alberth> AveiMil: first two letter are supposed to be author initials, \02 is a 'project number', and \03 a 'version' of that project. But many author don't follow those rules
10:00:37 <AveiMil> so two NewGRF's can conflict or anything if they ahve the same ID?
10:01:06 <Alberth> yes, having the same ID may give problems
10:02:06 <planetmaker> you cannot activate two newgrfs with the same ID. Nor can you upload a newgrf to bananas when the ID exists there already
10:02:29 <Alberth> in particular, such data is saved in a game, so you can reload the grf if you load the game again. It is then important that you actually get the exact same grf, and not another one
10:02:40 <planetmaker> and we still don't have a comprehensive list of used IDs anywhere... hm
10:02:50 <Qantourisc> they don't talk allot on openttd :)
10:05:00 <AveiMil> So for name : string(STR_GRF_NAME); I can create a seperate line outside the grf block that says STR_GRF_NAME :AveiMil Mod
10:05:15 <AveiMil> STR_GRF_NAME is like a variable?
10:05:29 <planetmaker> it's a string to be put in the language file
10:06:03 <AveiMil> so I can just do what I mentioned?
10:06:17 <planetmaker> you need a language file for the default language
10:06:28 <planetmaker> and why don't you want translations?
10:06:49 <planetmaker> and as you see ogfx-trains has a default.lng ;-)
10:07:26 <AveiMil> so, I make a default.lng file, place it in the same folder as my AveiMil_Mod.nml file
10:07:35 <AveiMil> and when nmlc runs it figures that out automatically?
10:07:37 <planetmaker> place it in a lang subfolder
10:08:01 <AveiMil> I don't need any declaraiton in my AveiMIl_mod.nml taht points to language files?
10:08:12 <planetmaker> you don't need that, right.
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10:08:30 <planetmaker> but you need the lang subfolder for them. Or you need to tell nmlc where to find the language files
10:09:38 <AveiMil> Each language appears to have a code, lang: 7F
10:09:41 <AveiMil> Where is that referenced?
10:10:15 <Alberth> not, nml handles all languages you supply by itself
10:10:57 <Alberth> (or I misunderstood the question)
10:11:12 <planetmaker> AveiMil: the language code tells openttd when to use that language
10:11:37 <Alberth> you set that language in the game options menu
10:11:38 <planetmaker> e.g. if I select German, the newgrf will then know to use the strings from the German langauge file (if present) - or use the default (7F)
10:11:41 <AveiMil> so for English it must be 7F
10:12:15 <planetmaker> unless you want the default to be maori. But many might not like it
10:12:34 <planetmaker> indeed. English UK. English US is language 01
10:12:54 <Qantourisc> Ps in multiplayer, is there a way to share resources between companies ?
10:12:56 <AveiMil> I use English UK and since the world revolves around me, 7F it is.
10:13:17 <AveiMil> Though, I am Norwegian
10:13:26 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: yes. On an oil rig
10:13:35 <Alberth> planetmaker: figures :)
10:13:48 <Qantourisc> hmm, ok, not an option in this case, thanks :)
10:17:20 <AveiMil> If 0 is the same and 1 is double the cost.
10:17:25 <AveiMil> How can I make it 50% the cost?
10:17:52 <AveiMil> Can I use decimal numbers?
10:18:41 <planetmaker> you can only change stuff in powers of two
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10:23:27 <AveiMil> So, how do I run nmlc? It's not an executable..
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10:24:50 <Alberth> it is a Python script
10:25:17 <AveiMil> What version should I download? 2.7 or 3.1.1?
10:25:58 <AveiMil> And where's the image library? Don't see that on their website
10:26:52 <Alberth> hmm, 2.x requirement is not in the docs
10:27:05 <Alberth> let me find PIL, a moment
10:27:29 <AveiMil> I don't know what to download
10:27:50 <AveiMil> "for phyton 2.6" is the highest, but I downloaded 2.7
10:28:12 <Alberth> why not use 2.6 instead to be safe?
10:29:29 <AveiMil> Where should I place ply-3.3? (since it's not an installer)
10:30:20 <Alberth> simplest would be in site-packages of python
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10:31:01 <Alberth> (actually simplest is next to nmlc, but then python cannot find it if you ever need it at a different directory)
10:31:37 <AveiMil> "next to nml" same folder too as nml-r1013?
10:31:43 * andythenorth_ wonders if a buildout could fetch all the nml dependencies
10:31:50 <AveiMil> C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\nml-r1013
10:31:51 <AveiMil> C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\ply-3.3
10:31:55 <AveiMil> that's my current structure
10:33:16 <AveiMil> I got it all installed...
10:33:45 <Alberth> python nmlc yourfile.nml
10:34:09 <Alberth> andythenorth_: no idea, I have a package manager taking care of that
10:34:46 <Qantourisc> most worhless company ever: €2
10:35:11 <Alberth> they all start like that :)
10:35:41 <Qantourisc> tried shipyard on multiplayer
10:35:42 <planetmaker> would be mean to tell the hard truth: -100.000
10:35:54 <Qantourisc> but didn't start with the most optimal choices
10:36:24 <Qantourisc> and i spend money on something that returns it in the next 20 years :/
10:36:44 <AveiMil> Do you put the Python folder in your PATH so you can launch it from anywhere?
10:36:47 <Qantourisc> the game doesn't even last that long :D
10:36:58 <Qantourisc> AveiMil: that's a way
10:37:42 <planetmaker> AveiMil: I'd do that :-)
10:37:59 <AveiMil> ImportError: No module named ply.lex
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10:38:10 <AveiMil> How do I configure the PLY?
10:38:52 <planetmaker> did you install PLY?
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10:39:01 <Alberth> (11:32:12 AM) AveiMil: C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\ply-3.3 <-- drop the "-3.3"
10:39:06 <AveiMil> it's not an installer (not the one I downloaded anyway)
10:39:32 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: so i cannot load goods to another player ? :D
10:39:38 <Alberth> it is just 2 files or so, not really worth writing an installer for
10:39:39 <Qantourisc> right i already asked sorry
10:39:39 <AveiMil> Alberth, made no difference to the error.
10:39:41 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: via oil rig
10:39:54 <Qantourisc> one should be able to setup contracts :D
10:40:26 <planetmaker> that's what infrastructure sharing used to do. But it's not updated for a year now
10:40:34 <Alberth> where is nmlc in your setup ?
10:40:48 <AveiMil> C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\nml-r1013
10:41:03 <Alberth> no, the main python script file
10:41:49 <AveiMil> Not sure I understand
10:42:01 <Alberth> 'next to nmlc' is literally have 'ply' in the same directory as nmlc
10:42:11 <AveiMil> C:\Program Files\Python27
10:42:24 <Alberth> where is the nmlc.py file?
10:43:11 <AveiMil> Well, it's nowhere to be found in C:\Games at least :)
10:43:52 <planetmaker> you must have put nml somewhere ;-)
10:43:55 <AveiMil> C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\nml-r1013, that's the nml I downloaded
10:43:57 <Alberth> I'd expect C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\nml-r1013\nmlc.py
10:44:03 <AveiMil> and there's only a nml cfile there
10:44:47 <AveiMil> there isen't much in that file either, just a few lines
10:44:48 <Alberth> put ply in C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\nml-r1013 too
10:45:02 <AveiMil> like so? C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\nml-r1013\ply
10:45:20 <Alberth> yes, it does 'from nml import stuff', then stuff.main()
10:46:02 <AveiMil> did not work, but it's possible I put the wrong ply folder in there
10:46:05 <Alberth> that's why site-packages is much simpler in the long run
10:46:10 <AveiMil> I put the renamed ply-3.3 folder in there
10:46:25 <AveiMil> but there's a ply folder under ex ply-3.3
10:46:28 <AveiMil> i'll try that isntead
10:46:39 <Alberth> sounds like a good idea
10:47:24 <Qantourisc> Why would one not use maglev ?
10:47:40 <AveiMil> String "STR_GRF_NAME" does not exist in the translations.
10:48:14 <AveiMil> but that's not true, I have lang\default.lng
10:48:15 <AveiMil> STR_GRF_NAME :AveiMil Mod {VERSION}
10:49:03 <AveiMil> I'll try specifying lang dir
10:50:11 <xiong> There are many, many settings available to the player. Amazing how configurable the game is, even without adding a single grf beyond the basic. My hat is off.
10:51:10 <xiong> And all these settings are available through the ingame GUI. Except for... *nine* of them, all having to do with font selection. These, you must edit the config file by hand.
10:51:46 <AveiMil> I assumed this was from the header grf{} block
10:51:53 <AveiMil> but giving me an error in my test
10:53:48 <xiong> After crying, moaning, weeping, bitching, and driving everyone up the wall for a month about my poor eyesight and difficulty making out most everything, I have stumbled on these obscure settings, changed my fonts, and increased their sizes considerably. What an improvement! But may I suggest that, if you don't want to suggest players edit their configs by hand, you might allow them to make the changes in the Advanced Settings GUI.
10:54:54 <Alberth> please find a universal way to get fonts and sizes etc for all platforms that we support
10:55:45 <Alberth> AveiMil: {VERSION} is some build system magic (you need planetmaker for that)
10:56:00 <AveiMil> I just removed it for now.
10:56:01 <Alberth> a simple way is to replace it with some fixed text
10:56:09 <AveiMil> Now I have my .grf file
10:56:27 <AveiMil> I see mods here are packed: C:\Documents and Settings\sdre\My Documents\OpenTTD\content_download\data
10:56:29 <Alberth> put in 'data' of your game
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10:57:04 <Alberth> start openttd, and select it from the main menu :)
10:57:08 <planetmaker> yes... I always want the newgrf to have the version my repository for the newgrf has
10:57:09 <AveiMil> it loads all .grfs in the C:\Games\OpenTTD\data automatically?
10:57:21 <planetmaker> I write the {VERSION} into custom_tags.txt
10:57:25 <planetmaker> which then can be used
10:57:26 <AveiMil> load it via NewGRF settings I guess
10:58:27 <AveiMil> I would never been able to piece together this information to do this without your IRC help
10:59:07 <AveiMil> When playing multiplayer, does everyone need teh same NewGRF packs, or is it only the server that matters?
11:00:12 <Alberth> everybody must have the exact same setup
11:00:31 <AveiMil> are you sure? because I created a game yesterday and I had AI configured
11:00:52 <AveiMil> and that worked fine and Im' sure the others didt neccessary have the smae AI's configured
11:01:08 <Alberth> AIs run only at the server iirc, but that is a bit of an exception
11:01:14 <planetmaker> AIs are not newgrf
11:01:47 <Alberth> basically, in MP, every player runs the same program at the same time, so you don't have to transfer all changes in the whole world
11:01:55 <AveiMil> planetmaker, Alberth said you did {VERSION} magic
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11:02:10 <AveiMil> How can I get the version from the .nml file to display in the language file?
11:02:21 <Alberth> which obviously breaks if you do something different than another player
11:02:21 <planetmaker> [11:57] <planetmaker> yes... I always want the newgrf to have the version my repository for the newgrf has
11:02:23 <planetmaker> [11:57] <AveiMil> it loads all .grfs in the C:\Games\OpenTTD\data automatically?
11:02:24 <planetmaker> [11:57] <planetmaker> I write the {VERSION} into custom_tags.txt
11:02:26 <planetmaker> [11:57] <planetmaker> which then can be used
11:03:49 <AveiMil> where do you place the custom_tags.txt?
11:04:02 <planetmaker> same place as the nml
11:04:30 <AveiMil> do you have an example file?
11:05:14 <Alberth> it is generated, so not stored in the repo
11:05:51 <planetmaker> VERSION :nightly-r88M
11:05:52 <planetmaker> TITLE :OpenGFX+ Trains nightly-r88M
11:06:15 <Qantourisc> Why does shipyard earn so litle ? :D
11:06:30 <AveiMil> So you update the version in both the .txt and the .nml file each time then?
11:10:38 <planetmaker> AveiMil: that's why I use for example the makefiles :-)
11:10:48 <planetmaker> They take care to update the version automatically for me ;-)
11:13:04 <AveiMil> That's why your header says version : REPO_REVISION;
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11:14:40 <planetmaker> that's only the numerical version. It's replaced by the gcc preprocessor to the actual number
11:15:40 <planetmaker> which in this case is not a string defined in custom_tags.txt :-)
11:15:49 <AveiMil> Thank you very much, now I have the basic tools and knowledge I need to make a basic mod.
11:17:12 <planetmaker> the very simple example project is possibly a good idea, Alberth
11:17:54 <Alberth> ask AveiMil for the source :p
11:19:25 <planetmaker> Alberth: I dare say, though, that half of it is already found in the documentation: fhttp://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#installation ;-)
11:23:29 <AveiMil> Want me to upload my little silly mod there?
11:23:46 <planetmaker> start a forum thread about it in the newgrf development forum
11:23:51 <planetmaker> but seriously yes!
11:25:39 <planetmaker> IMOH it's important to share the work being done with others. Feedback can be useful and where's the fun to just have it for your own when others may find it useful?
11:26:28 <Alberth> planetmaker: yeah, it mostly needs more details, like urls, versions, directory paths, actual command-line
11:26:51 <planetmaker> I guess so... but I don't know how all that works on windows...
11:26:53 <AveiMil> finnishing up my example mod, I'll upload it then
11:27:06 <Alberth> planetmaker: ^^^ where to publish can also be added :)
11:27:37 <Alberth> planetmaker: me neither, so glad I have yum doing it all for me :)
11:28:33 <planetmaker> zypper or macports do the job for me, yes
11:28:45 <planetmaker> Upload possibilities... good point.
11:31:50 <Qantourisc> can i make chat text stay longer ?
11:32:14 <planetmaker> no. But you can scroll up in the console and read back there
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11:42:31 <AveiMil> planetmaker, I can't get taht custom_tags.txt to work properly
11:42:52 <AveiMil> custom_tags.txt I have -> VERSION :1.0 (space between N :)
11:43:10 <AveiMil> in default.lng I have STR_GRF_NAME :{VERSION}
11:43:16 <planetmaker> what does 'not properly' mean
11:43:42 <AveiMil> wait, maybe it's something else: error is : line 3: String "STR_GRF_NAME" does not exist in the translations.
11:43:52 <AveiMil> STR_GRF_NAME :{TITLE} {VERSION} is in my lang file
11:44:01 <AveiMil> TITLE and VERSION are defiend in custom_tags.txt
11:44:17 <planetmaker> and the langauge file is in the lang subfolder?
11:45:14 <AveiMil> yeah but nvm, found a small typo
11:45:40 <dih> i am missing a hg repo for berries .....
11:46:27 <Alberth> easy fix: hg init berries
11:46:38 <AveiMil> Language file "C:\Games\OpenTTD_NewGRF\AveiMil_BaseCost_Mod\lang\norwegian.lng"
11:46:38 <AveiMil> contains non-utf8 characters. Ignoring (part of) the contents
11:46:45 <AveiMil> Guessing it dosen't like
11:46:50 <Alberth> dih: it is still empty then though :(
11:47:04 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: you used the wrong encoding when saving that file
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11:51:55 <AveiMil> But when I test it in the game, choose norwegian language, it does not display the norwegian descritption for the mod
11:52:04 <Qantourisc> Is there a lot to translate if you want to add a new language ?
11:53:08 <planetmaker> ~4200 strings or so?
11:53:16 <Hirundo> AveiMil: Do you use a nightly version of OpenTTD?
11:53:27 <Qantourisc> so only add a language if you are deteremend ? :p
11:53:49 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: well, yes and no
11:53:54 <Alberth> there is a web-interface for the translators
11:54:08 <Alberth> often there are several for a single language
11:54:09 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: actaully that list is managable :)
11:54:26 <Hirundo> AveiMil: Translated grf descriptions only work in nightlies, the translated vehicle names should work, though
11:54:28 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: are all languages accepted ?
11:54:45 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: in principle yes. Why not?
11:54:56 <planetmaker> Klingon might be a bit off-scale, but...
11:55:44 <planetmaker> what language code should that be?
11:55:54 <planetmaker> it doesn't follow the usual rules
11:56:13 <planetmaker> en_UK is the iso style we us. or just en for fallback
11:57:10 <Qantourisc> there is only 1 jbo :)
11:57:22 <planetmaker> ##isocode zh_TW <-- e.g. for traditional chinese
11:57:26 <Qantourisc> there are no subsets :)
11:57:51 <Qantourisc> jbo_world if you want :)
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11:59:33 <planetmaker> I think we need ISO 639-1 ;-)
12:00:12 <Alberth> hello frosch123 and Wolf01
12:05:21 <planetmaker> hm... is it scary if I have to consider switching on lights at 1pm? :-(
12:05:28 <Qantourisc> "You will only translate languages that you know,"
12:05:41 <frosch123> planetmaker: are you chatting while driving?
12:05:59 <planetmaker> frosch123: no, I'm sitting on my kitchen table. But it's dark...
12:06:03 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: in case of this language ... what would you consider "known enough" ?
12:06:11 <Alberth> he didn't open the curtains yet :)
12:06:27 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: I only translate my mother tongue
12:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: that is entirely your own judgement
12:06:41 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: well no-one speaks this language by mother :D
12:06:58 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: (well exepct for 1 translation website, i think they breed them :D)
12:07:09 <planetmaker> I have no categories at hand how to judge proficiency in languages.
12:07:38 <Qantourisc> editing "afrikaans"
12:08:12 <Qantourisc> Whole map screenshotHele kaart schermprint <= that's translated like an ass :/
12:08:35 <Qantourisc> but i don't know how to translte it any better though :)
12:08:41 <AveiMil> Hey guys, I put together my demo mod and uploaded it here
12:08:59 <AveiMil> take a look at let me know if something else should be added that's useful for beginners
12:09:19 <AveiMil> also let me know if I should upload it somewhere else
12:15:28 <planetmaker> AveiMil: why don't you start a tt-forums thread?
12:15:51 <planetmaker> no-one will find it, if you upload it *somewhere*
12:24:11 <AveiMil> ok, but did the contents look fine? should I change something before I make a tt-thread?
12:24:23 <mikl> Hmm, wasn't there Mac OS X builds of OpenTTD at some point?
12:25:02 <planetmaker> at one point. prior to 1.0
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12:25:53 <Alberth> but the Mac dev went away, so we cannot build the program any more, nor fix bugs
12:25:53 <George> would nvar=0 work for VariationalAction2 in case it is not a callback, but a usual Action2HousesIndustryTiles?
12:26:00 <mikl> seems a bit wierd that there are builds for OS/2 but not for Mac OS X ;)
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12:26:37 <mikl> well, at least there is a homebrew recipe for it
12:27:04 <Eddi|zuHause> mikl: that is basically Apple's fault
12:27:14 <frosch123> George: nvar=0 always means a callback result
12:27:15 <Alberth> you cannot run Mac in a VM legally, so building is not possible
12:27:49 <Alberth> but building a version with bugs is useless anyway
12:28:06 <George> frosch123: what would happen for Action2HousesIndustryTiles? default value would be used instead of calculation result?
12:28:56 <George> I mean VariationalAction2 would fail and ude default result?
12:29:04 <frosch123> a default value is still a callback result. when resolving realsprites results in a callback result, the realsprite resolving failed
12:29:27 <frosch123> i guess industrytiles/houses would then draw the original image of the substitute type
12:29:56 <frosch123> vehicles likely draw a "?" image
12:30:47 <mikl> Alberth: well, you can if you run the VM on a Mac ;) - but I see what you’re saying :)
12:31:04 <planetmaker> mikl: do you donate to us an XServe?
12:31:24 <Alberth> planetmaker: we need a Mac dev much more urgently :)
12:31:37 <planetmaker> I heard that much, I guess ;-)
12:32:05 <frosch123> how about buying apple, and resolving the company?
12:32:14 <mikl> planetmaker: I suppose a Mac Mini would do the trick :)
12:32:18 <planetmaker> I also heart that the remaining bugs are a bitch to fix, if not the appropriate hardware is available to test it on as they're very hardware specific
12:32:36 <Alberth> mikl: it needs to be a 19" rack machine
12:32:39 <mikl> but yeah, if we don't have a developer, that pointless anyways
12:33:14 <planetmaker> Alberth: With some I'm tempted to say 'works for me' :-P
12:33:35 <planetmaker> but as long as two people report the same issue... :S
12:33:39 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: hardware specific bugs ?!?
12:34:12 <Alberth> Qantourisc: we are as flabbergasted as you are :)
12:34:34 <Qantourisc> unless you are using hacks ... there shouldn't be any of those :/
12:34:51 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: there's no other way to explain it. If it works here on the same OS, but not there, it has to be hardware - if that's the only thing which differs
12:35:07 <planetmaker> especially if it comes to display-related bugs
12:35:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: the entire mac port is consisting of hacks.
12:36:47 <planetmaker> so the only thing I can do is 'look at the bug report, guess where it goes wrong and then make another guess how to fix it' - and then hope that the original bug report can test it, does test it and verify whether it fixes it or not
12:37:10 <Qantourisc> at the least indeed
12:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: apple has an extraordinarily unstable API. they introduce a brand new API in one version, deprecate it in the next, and remove it in the next.
12:37:22 <planetmaker> the only thing open which is NOT that way is the missing support of CJK input
12:37:35 <Qantourisc> Eddi|zuHause: how is one suppost to support thart
12:37:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Qantourisc: exactly.
12:37:55 <planetmaker> it's not quite as bad, but nearly, yes
12:38:19 * andythenorth_ looks at OS X bugs
12:38:24 <Alberth> Qantourisc: easy, be a proper Mac dev, buy dev kits from apple, go to courses, etc
12:38:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21090 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp openttd.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: Rename VehicleCache to NewGRFCache.
12:38:52 <Qantourisc> Alberth: i never liked mac :p
12:38:53 <Alberth> Qantourisc: except not feasible without money :)
12:39:10 <andythenorth_> what is the CJK issue?
12:39:32 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21091 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: Add bit constants for checking NewGRFCache validity.
12:40:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: it's basically a missing feature: you cannot input chinese characters
12:41:02 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21092 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.cpp ground_vehicle.hpp roadveh.h train.h): -Codechange: Merge max speed functions.
12:41:18 <mikl> I'll try to add instructions for it on the Wiki
12:41:59 <mikl> `brew install openttd` FTY
12:42:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21093 /trunk/src/aircraft.h: -Codechange: Align some functions.
12:42:29 <andythenorth_> FIRS 0.5.3 is going to have a little problem
12:43:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: which one?
12:43:05 <Alberth> you hit a bump in the FIRS road?
12:43:53 <andythenorth_> Sugar refinery layout in 0.5.x is 2x3
12:44:06 <planetmaker> mikl: I don't know what that script is supposed to do... obviously install OpenTTD. But you might remove the reference to the original TTD. It's absolutely not needed
12:44:10 <andythenorth_> graphics I'm using are 3x2
12:44:25 <planetmaker> Rather install also automagically the base sets
12:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> 2x3 sounds a little small
12:44:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: then add (also) a 2x3 layout
12:44:44 <planetmaker> problem then solved
12:44:55 <andythenorth_> graphics will be weird
12:45:04 * planetmaker sees no big issue with that except that andy has to do more drawing :-P
12:45:27 <andythenorth_> it will just be a bit broken until 0.6
12:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21094 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Aircraft speed would ignore callback 36 result when it is greater than the engine speed.
12:46:06 <AveiMil> How can I tell what that means?
12:46:32 <Hirundo> building a rail waypoint?
12:46:57 <planetmaker> if the name is not descriptive enough... you can only try :-P
12:47:15 <AveiMil> Don't see a rail waypoint in the game
12:47:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21095 /trunk/src/ (aircraft.h economy.cpp newgrf_engine.cpp): -Codechange: Use a function to convert aircraft speed to old units.
12:47:53 <Alberth> AveiMil: the real challenge is to find the non-rail waypoint :p
12:48:41 <Hirundo> I guess, these are called buoys
12:49:15 <Alberth> Hirundo: you are giving the answer too soon :(
12:49:21 <Hirundo> Floating ship-guiding device, then? ;)
12:50:31 <planetmaker> but actually the list of constants tells about ...WAYPOINT_RAIL and ...WAYPOINT_BUOY
12:50:35 <AveiMil> PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_STEAM <- is taht running cost for stream trains?
12:50:37 <planetmaker> so it would have been obvious
12:50:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21096 /trunk/src/ (aircraft.h aircraft_cmd.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Fix: Display the real max speed for aircrafts instead of always using the engine value.
12:51:37 <planetmaker> :-P s/aircrafts/aircraft/ ;-)
12:51:53 <planetmaker> nasty word, granted
12:52:21 <Alberth> planetmaker: should be ...WAYPOINT_WATER :)
12:52:58 <planetmaker> as patch author I'd love to see that kind of changes :-P
12:52:59 <Hirundo> The Internet (tm) often talks about aircrafts, The Internet (tm) is always right, ergo....
12:53:05 <Alberth> or even WAYPOINT and BUOY
12:53:28 <planetmaker> Alberth: just waypoint is IMHO not good. We might introduce it for RV or planes, too
12:53:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21097 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: Unify cached max speed for all vehicle types.
12:53:46 <planetmaker> though I don't see the latter ;-)
12:54:06 <planetmaker> waypoint_water sounds better to me
12:54:17 <Alberth> didn't we have a suggestion for radio towers or so for planes ?
12:54:22 <Hirundo> FYI - I reused the names from the OpenTTD source :)
12:54:36 <planetmaker> hehe @ Hirundo :-)
12:54:41 <AveiMil> PR_BUILD_VEHICLE_TRAIN <- is there any way to split this so I can change purchase costs for steam/diesel/electric costs induvidually?
12:54:46 <AveiMil> just like running costs
12:55:11 <Hirundo> You can set a multiplier for each train individually
12:56:01 <AveiMil> how many tears does it take for someone to implement that?
12:56:23 <Alberth> Hirundo: internal names of OpenTTD do not always mean anything useful outside the source. eg we have that names only because waypoint code and buoy code was unifiied recently
12:56:50 <planetmaker> Hirundo: I deliberately switched the few letters ;-)
12:57:37 <Hirundo> Vehicle set authors manage quite well without separate base costs, I think
12:57:54 <planetmaker> it works at least
12:58:57 <Alberth> AveiMil: running costs make a much bigger impact than the one time that you buy a train
12:58:59 <AveiMil> Can I set the purcahe cost for the induvidual trains in the basecost block?
12:59:21 <Alberth> AveiMil: also, what happens if you combine a electric engine with a steam engine in a train?
12:59:30 <AveiMil> I want to have higher running costs for steam trains, but have the trains be relatively cheap, and lower running costs for electric trains
12:59:38 <AveiMil> but have the trains be fairly expensive
12:59:58 <Yexo> you can't change the cost of individual engines in the basecost block
13:00:07 <AveiMil> I mean the engine, not train
13:00:07 <Yexo> you'll need an item/property block for that
13:01:39 <AveiMil> Do you have an example block where a trains cost is cahnged?
13:02:18 <AveiMil> I notice I blend the words trains and engine
13:02:49 <planetmaker> look at opengfx+trains
13:02:58 <Yexo> item(FEAT_TRAINS, train_name, 3) { property { running_cost_factor: 20; } }
13:03:30 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21098 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Ships now store their max speed in the cache instead of recalculating it every time.
13:03:32 <Yexo> defauklt running cost factors (and the list of ids) can be found here: file:///D:/cygwin-home/openttd/nml/docs/refs.html#refs-vehicleIDs
13:03:51 <AveiMil> Give me access to your d drive :)
13:04:03 <Yexo> ehm, you know the url to the online docs
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13:04:30 <planetmaker> I seem to have seen that problem, Yexo ;-)
13:04:49 <Yexo> yeah, I've done that before :(
13:05:27 <planetmaker> I remembered when I put such link in the NML posting in tt-forums, but yeah
13:05:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21099 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Store road vehicle max speed in the vehicle cache.
13:07:16 <AveiMil> I reallly don't know what path your trying to link me
13:08:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
13:08:41 <planetmaker> AveiMil: but you know where the NML docs are?
13:08:49 <planetmaker> You even have them on your hard disk. Come on!
13:09:31 <Alberth> planetmaker: I'd add 'publishing' at the forums in there somewhere as well, but otherwise seems fine
13:09:43 <AveiMil> I don't have them on my harddrive :(
13:10:15 <AveiMil> right, ok I already had taht table up
13:10:25 <AveiMil> so I should use the name Kirby Paul Tank (Steam) ?
13:10:32 <AveiMil> looked funny since there's spaces and stuff
13:11:00 <Yexo> no, you can use any name you want
13:11:09 <Yexo> as long as it doesn't have spaces
13:11:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21100 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp newgrf_properties.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Feature [NewGRF]: Add CB36 support for road vehicle property 0x15 (Speed).
13:12:07 <andythenorth_> I can finish HEQS 0.9 :)
13:12:12 <AveiMil> So to set the KirbyPaul train cost I do this?
13:12:12 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_TRAINS, KirbyPaulTankSteam, 0) { property { cost_factor: 4; }}
13:12:19 <AveiMil> 0 = the number in the table
13:12:51 <Terkhen> tell me if something explodes :)
13:12:58 <Yexo> but notice that the default is 50, so you've just lowered the running cost 12.5x
13:13:35 * planetmaker prepares some IEDs for Terkhen
13:13:36 <AveiMil> hehe yeah, just to test
13:13:50 <AveiMil> but now that I tested, I see the train has dropped in the default purcahse list ordering
13:14:01 <AveiMil> I don't want to do that
13:14:12 <planetmaker> Not much way around that
13:14:25 <AveiMil> it says EngineID sort
13:14:29 <AveiMil> so why ain't it at the top
13:14:46 <planetmaker> yes. And it gets a new one as you re-define it
13:15:01 <planetmaker> hm... though it might be considered a bug...
13:15:17 <AveiMil> can't I set ID with a property?
13:15:35 <Hirundo> What happens, when you disable the engine pool?
13:16:29 <planetmaker> Psst, Hirundo don't give people bad ideas :-)
13:16:55 <Yexo> planetmaker: why is that bad in this case?
13:16:57 <planetmaker> I actually always ponder whether I shall make the check for engine pool enabled fatal or keep it at warning level
13:17:09 <Yexo> either he sets a property of all the default engines (and they're sorted properly again)
13:17:11 <planetmaker> But it will then at a later stage
13:17:17 <Hirundo> The setting is called "Enable multiple GRF engine sets"
13:17:37 <planetmaker> It's actually a setting which could go from the GUI
13:17:57 <planetmaker> 'normal' users don't need it
13:18:35 <AveiMil> I don't notice any diference in the purcahse menu after disabling it
13:18:47 <Yexo> did you start a new game with the setting disabled?
13:18:57 <Yexo> planetmaker: only show it if "newgrf developer tools" is active
13:19:05 <planetmaker> Yexo: good idea :-)
13:19:38 <AveiMil> well no, but now I did
13:19:41 <Yexo> no idea if the current code for the advanced settings window allows that
13:19:42 <AveiMil> and notice no difference
13:20:19 <planetmaker> only when you start a new game
13:20:20 <Yexo> AveiMil: in that case probably the easiest solution is to set at least one property for all engines
13:20:40 <Alberth> no afaik, but folding of entries in a tree needs to be generalized :p
13:20:41 <AveiMil> Thought of that my self
13:22:00 <Yexo> George: do you check any ttdpatchflags in your newgrfs? And if so, which ones?
13:22:55 <Yexo> andythenorth_: same question ^^
13:23:29 <AveiMil> I don't even need to change a property
13:23:34 <AveiMil> I just use the default cost
13:23:40 <AveiMil> and now the list is displaed correct again
13:23:48 <andythenorth_> Yexo: I don't know what ttdpatchflags are :)
13:23:51 <Yexo> you need to _set_ one property
13:24:06 <AveiMil> I guess I set one, but I just overwrite the default value with the default value
13:24:09 <Yexo> action7 with variable 0x85
13:24:11 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_TRAINS, GinzuA4Steam, 9) { property { cost_factor: 19; } }
13:24:21 <AveiMil> since it's already 19 it's fine
13:24:35 <AveiMil> so you don't hvae to set it to something diffeerent than 19 i meant
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13:25:04 <AveiMil> what are these trains?
13:25:08 <AveiMil> they don't have any (Steam)(Diesel)
13:25:57 <Yexo> give there is also a "Ploddyphut Diesel " I'd guess that "Ploddyphut Choo-Choo " is a steam train
13:28:16 <andythenorth_> Yexo: far as I know I don't set any of those flags
13:28:27 <andythenorth_> only reason would be if another contributor has set them
13:28:33 <Yexo> you can't set them, only query them
13:28:43 <AveiMil> What is the cost_factor? cost factor 8 is 2x of cost factor 4?
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13:32:33 <planetmaker> [14:09] <Alberth> planetmaker: I'd add 'publishing' at the forums in there somewhere as well, but otherwise seems fine <-- you mean the forum post I made some time ago? Or...?
13:33:35 <Alberth> I mean the fact that you can make a thread in the Graphics Releases forum
13:34:16 <Alberth> to announce, and discuss the new NewGRF
13:34:55 <planetmaker> Uhm... I discuss the use of the Graphics Forum in length, don't I?
13:35:14 <planetmaker> Or you mean publishing there needs extra mentioning?
13:38:08 <Alberth> now it looks like bananas is the only option
13:39:32 <George> [16:22:11] <@Yexo> George: do you check any ttdpatchflags in your newgrfs? And if so, which ones? > newcargos newindustries newhouses
13:40:09 <Yexo> you just check them to be sure they're enabled and if not, disable the newgrf?
13:40:53 <George> Yexo: LV checks newrvs
13:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: afair ttdpatch.cfg has some more detailed descriptions
13:47:28 <planetmaker> <li>If you don't want to set all paths, make this library directly available inside nml's folder, so that ply.py is found in the
13:47:30 <planetmaker> sub-directory ply: nml/ply/ply.py
13:47:32 <planetmaker> ^^ can I say that, Alberth?
13:48:03 <Yexo> why not instruct to go to nml/ply and do: python setup.py install ?
13:49:03 <Alberth> it's not ply.py, it is ply/yacc.py and ply/lex.py (ie AveiMil has ply-3.3/ply/{lex,yacc}.py)
13:49:30 <Alberth> but under site-packages is much more generic
13:50:00 <Alberth> does ply have a setup.py?
13:50:27 <Alberth> in that case, definitely python setup.py install :)
13:50:48 <Alberth> apparently, it had an installer
13:51:14 <Yexo> but for windows there are exe installers for several packages, like pil
13:51:25 <Yexo> so that's "easier" for most windows users
13:51:41 <Alberth> Yexo: for linuces, you'd use a package manager
13:52:17 <Yexo> but I doubt ply is available there
13:53:05 <Alberth> python-ply-3.3-2.fc13.noarch you wanna bet? :)
13:53:16 <planetmaker> Yexo: you'd loose
13:53:30 <planetmaker> AveiMil: no. Look at the docs.
13:53:36 <planetmaker> look at the default vehicle list
13:53:43 <Alberth> several ply using programs distribute the ply files as part of the program
13:54:12 <planetmaker> it's listed nicely by climate there.... :-(
13:54:36 * planetmaker starts to be a bit disappointed
13:55:39 <Yexo> planetmaker: it's not in the nml documentation
13:55:51 <Yexo> might be good to add it in that table
13:56:03 <planetmaker> but still: just open the game and look at it what you have in 2050 when you have all vehicles set to 'never expire'
13:56:06 <planetmaker> yes, it would be good
13:56:20 <planetmaker> And I could have sworn it was there ;-)
13:57:06 <Alberth> AveiMil: and please feel free to enhance the docs
13:58:17 <planetmaker> we happily accept amended documentation to the NML docs
13:58:26 <planetmaker> and it would indeed be great to have that
13:59:43 <planetmaker> also with the climate information
14:08:24 <AveiMil> PR_BUILD_RAIL <- this affects normal railway/electric rails and monorails right?
14:10:05 <planetmaker> If you don't install these with the packet manager of your choice (or there is none like on windows),
14:10:07 <planetmaker> you should install these libraries using <code class="ex">python setup.py install</code> from your
14:10:10 <planetmaker> ^^ concerning installation of python, pil and ply?
14:10:14 <planetmaker> maybe add NML to the list, too
14:11:18 <planetmaker> ...libraries and NML itself...
14:11:57 <planetmaker> ^ sounds ok, Yexo ?
14:13:35 <planetmaker> then that's it for now
14:13:44 <Alberth> s/promt/prompt/ <-- planetmaker
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14:14:55 * andythenorth_ should learn how buildout works
14:15:00 <andythenorth_> and provide one for nml
14:15:10 <andythenorth_> buildout is good magic
14:16:16 <Alberth> only for platforms without their own package manager imho
14:16:59 * andythenorth_ only knows about world of Zope
14:17:06 <andythenorth_> buildout is standard in zope world
14:17:12 <AveiMil> Ok, here's a stupid question
14:17:21 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_TRAINS, KirbyPaulTankSteam, 0) { property { cost_factor: 7; } } can I somehow multiply that cost_factor with a variable?
14:17:23 <Alberth> it is an solution for python-only afaik.
14:17:43 <andythenorth_> are there non-python dependencies for nml?
14:17:45 <AveiMil> like cost_factor: 7*STEAMENGINECOST
14:17:58 <AveiMil> and define STEAMENGINECOST elsewhere
14:18:20 <Yexo> AveiMil: note that openttd already multiplies it with the base cost
14:18:50 <AveiMil> right, but lets say I wanted to test and try with 50% increased cost for all steam enginees
14:18:55 <AveiMil> then I could just set my variable to 1.5
14:18:57 <Yexo> another thing to note is that the cost_factor cannot be greater than 255, also after multiplication
14:19:20 <Yexo> using a preprocessor would be a good idea
14:19:45 <AveiMil> Steam_Engine_Cost: 1.5
14:19:46 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_TRAINS, KirbyPaulTankSteam, 0) { property { cost_factor: 7*Steam_Engine_Cost; } }
14:19:46 <Alberth> andythenorth_: I have all my files managed by the system package manager yum. yum knows nothing about packages installed by buildout and vice versa. These managers tend to freak out if you try updating stuff, as files change without the manager knowing about.
14:19:59 <Yexo> no, that syntax is not supported
14:19:59 <andythenorth_> Alberth: that makes sense
14:20:10 <Yexo> AveiMil: as I said, the best option is to use a preprocessor
14:20:14 <Yexo> than do something like this:
14:20:22 <Yexo> #define steam_engine_cost 1.5
14:20:23 <AveiMil> I don't know what a preprocessor is
14:20:42 <andythenorth_> far as I know buildout helps isolate a specific project from any packages managed by the OS
14:20:43 <Alberth> andythenorth_: you should have only one captain at a ship :)
14:20:43 <Yexo> planetmaker: are there somewhere instructions for copying the default newgrf project?
14:21:08 <planetmaker> not yet really... except in the example_newgrf project itself
14:21:13 <Alberth> andythenorth_: that would work of course
14:21:14 <planetmaker> which is by default still NFO
14:21:35 <planetmaker> I should change that :-)
14:21:43 <Alberth> but eg prevents installation at the general pythons site-packages
14:22:00 <andythenorth_> in certain development cases, that's considered a benefit :)
14:22:05 <planetmaker> mind if I add the photoshop windows palette file to NML?
14:22:40 <Alberth> andythenorth_: sure, we do such stuff at work too, but your average windows user?
14:22:50 <AveiMil> Can you tell me the correct syntax?
14:22:59 <andythenorth_> compared to installing multiple packages manually?
14:23:13 <andythenorth_> I am used to buildout as a one-stop thing we give to people like me and testers
14:23:29 <planetmaker> AveiMil: param[40] = 1.5
14:23:32 <andythenorth_> it avoids having developers wandering around building python environments all the time
14:23:38 <andythenorth_> on other people's laptops
14:23:40 <planetmaker> and then use param[40] instead of your named constant
14:23:59 <andythenorth_> it's also the only sane way to deploy python apps to production webservers...
14:24:12 <andythenorth_> I can advocate buildout, but I can't create one :P
14:24:32 <Alberth> more difficult than NFO :p
14:24:46 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_TRAINS, KirbyPaulTankSteam, 0) { property { cost_factor: 7*param[40]; } }
14:24:57 <planetmaker> I think it'll work, yes
14:25:09 <AveiMil> can it be any number?
14:25:23 <Yexo> <@planetmaker> AveiMil: param[40] = 1.5 <- that doesn't work, param[40] will be either 1 or 2
14:25:26 <planetmaker> it's the newgrf parameter number
14:25:42 <Alberth> planetmaker: I was sooo tempted to link to wikipedia 'definition of a number' :p
14:26:20 <Yexo> AveiMil: you can work around that by doing: param[40] = 100; (100 = 1, 150 = 1.5, etc.)
14:26:32 <planetmaker> ok... so param[40] = ... ^
14:26:38 <Yexo> item(FEAT_TRAINS, KirbyPaulTankSteam, 0) { property { cost_factor: 7*param[40]/100; } }
14:27:32 * andythenorth_ has two releases to do :0
14:32:08 <AveiMil> hm, on this line: item(FEAT_TRAINS, KirbyPaulTankSteam, 0) { property { cost_factor: 7*param[10]/100; } }
14:32:10 <AveiMil> I get error: nmlc: "input", line 30: Syntax error, unexpected token "item"
14:33:04 <Yexo> the line before that has an error
14:33:11 <Yexo> probably you forgot the semicolon
14:34:27 <planetmaker> just seen that too often ;-)
14:34:58 <AveiMil> Well that works perfectly
14:35:08 <AveiMil> now it's easy to play-test with different values
14:35:41 <planetmaker> AveiMil: make use of 'reloadnewgrfs' in the console
14:36:01 <AveiMil> then I don't need to create a new game?
14:36:23 <planetmaker> just copy your updated newgrf over the existing one and use that console command
14:36:32 <AveiMil> yeah, my build.cmd does that
14:36:51 <AveiMil> xcopy "%ProjectDir%%ProjectNMLDir%%ProjectNMLFile%.grf" "%OpenTDDDataDir%" /Y
14:36:51 <planetmaker> my makefile does that for me :-P
14:37:21 <planetmaker> and it would / should work for everyone, independent of OS
14:42:01 <Alberth> except some OSes don't provide 'make' by default
14:42:33 <Hirundo> Some quite popular OSes sold by M$?
14:42:56 <planetmaker> Alberth: unfortunately yes
14:43:12 <planetmaker> those are also known to be quite slow when running that
14:43:13 <Alberth> could be, it has always been beyond me how you can do actual work at such systems :p
14:43:24 <planetmaker> And ... I actually thought to complement the project by a set of bat files
14:43:32 <mikl> planetmaker: mm, not sure what you mean, it's not me that created the recipe :)
14:44:07 <Alberth> planetmaker: just give them a linux install DVD instead :p
14:44:11 <planetmaker> mikl: I have even no idea what file format that is and what purpose it serves. I've never seen that before
14:45:06 <mikl> planetmaker: it's a recipe for an open source package manager for Mac OS X called homebrew that builds OpenTTD :)
14:45:20 <planetmaker> ah. Never heart of that
14:45:21 <Alberth> I once saw a game that listed 'linux' as a install dependency :)
14:45:32 <planetmaker> mikl: what about rather creating a macports package?
14:45:41 <planetmaker> haha @ Alberth :-)
14:46:23 <mikl> planetmaker: I think there is one already. I don’t use Macports, though :)
14:46:34 <planetmaker> there's none I know...
14:49:44 <Jolteon> Hm, is it possible to make towns stop building bridges ridiculous lengths to 'nearby' land?
14:49:49 <AveiMil> item(FEAT_TRAINS, KirbyPaulTankSteam, 0) { property { cost_factor: 7*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 50*param[20]/100; } }
14:49:52 <AveiMil> I can do that on 1 line?
14:50:06 <AveiMil> (adding running_cost using the same method)
14:50:09 <planetmaker> I think so. But why not make it readable
14:50:32 <AveiMil> think this is best way to read it, otherwise there's sooo many lines per engine
14:50:37 <planetmaker> if you defined both param[10] and param[20] before
14:50:48 <planetmaker> AveiMil: yes. one per property
14:50:55 <planetmaker> that's the best readable you can get
14:50:59 <planetmaker> many lines per engine don't hurt
14:51:10 <AveiMil> it depends, since all the lines are the same
14:51:16 <AveiMil> there's no need to have many lines per engine
14:51:23 <AveiMil> it's easier to get an overview by having it on 1 line
14:51:33 <AveiMil> maybe if you have different properties or all and stuff
14:51:38 * planetmaker disagrees, but not me who looses overview
14:51:38 <AveiMil> then it's better to split
15:00:01 <planetmaker> I would have preferred to not have it as the first choice... I'll redirect all support requests to you, ok?
15:01:15 <mikl> well, it is certainly the easiest option, but feel free to rearrange
15:02:19 <planetmaker> well. I'll refer all people with problems to you. Can you give me your e-mail for that? :-)
15:03:41 <AveiMil> Did someone mention taht running_cost value can max be 255?
15:04:38 <Hirundo> That's what the documentation says
15:05:51 <planetmaker> :-O what a nice advice...
15:06:06 <planetmaker> "to avoid using sudo when installing packages, change the owner recursively on /usr/local directory
15:06:08 <planetmaker> sudo chown -R `whoami` /usr/local"
15:07:23 * planetmaker isn't impressed to find that on the 3rd page of the 'homebrew' page directly
15:07:39 <planetmaker> as piece of official advice how to handle that system
15:09:57 <planetmaker> "We recommend you delete /usr/local/include and /usr/local/lib"
15:10:14 <planetmaker> those pages are highly dangerous to those who don't know
15:10:40 <mikl> planetmaker: not neccesarily. Mac OS X does not ship anything in /usr/local/
15:11:09 <planetmaker> The worse is the advice to 'just' delete it
15:11:17 <mikl> so people who don't know will likely not have anything in those folders
15:11:19 <planetmaker> Because - if they're there - they're there for a reason
15:12:01 <Qantourisc> Didn't knew therer where jerks in openttd
15:13:07 <Qantourisc> So a password on your company is required
15:13:22 <Qantourisc> you'd think peaple in a constructive game would be well
15:13:42 <planetmaker> mikl: all this and other changes suggested there make be believe that all advice on the homebrew pages are at best dangerious and malicous at worst.
15:13:59 <planetmaker> those may work for one person, but NEVER can be considered general advice
15:14:16 <planetmaker> especially none given to people who do NOT know the internals
15:14:45 <AveiMil> reloadnewgrfs <- error command not found
15:14:59 <planetmaker> AveiMil: you might need to enable the newgrf_developer_tools
15:15:10 <planetmaker> set newgrf_developer_tools 1
15:16:47 <AveiMil> unknown setting it says
15:17:30 <mikl> planetmaker: well, they are hardly malicious, but I see your point
15:18:08 <Alberth> AveiMil: you need a nightly for that setting I think
15:20:33 <mikl> planetmaker: they do say "If in doubt, don’t delete this stuff, but be aware that this may cause build issues." right below that headline though :)
15:21:00 <planetmaker> AveiMil: oh, yes. You need a nightly for those goodies
15:21:37 <planetmaker> mikl: excuse me, but I added a strong warning to our page where homebrew is linked. I fear for our users.
15:23:07 <mikl> planetmaker: well, as I said earlier, you can't break OS X by deleting /usr/local
15:23:26 <mikl> but you could ostensibly break software that you have build manually using gcc
15:23:57 <Yexo> <AveiMil> why is there no PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_ELECTRIC for monorail or maglev? those are considered electric? <- yes, monorail and maglev trains use the PR_RUNNING_TRAIN_ELECTRIC base
15:26:08 <planetmaker> mikl: just so much: you have no clue how much on my system would break, if I just deleted /usr/local
15:26:38 <planetmaker> I might still be able to boot. But I'd not stop swearing before sunset
15:27:15 <planetmaker> and "being able to boot" is not the same as "safe advice"
15:27:42 <planetmaker> it's the same as advising to delete everything in /Users
15:28:01 <planetmaker> it's save. You'll still be able to boot. Oh well
15:28:27 <mikl> planetmaker: that's ridiculous. The average OS X user is unlikely to have anything of value in /usr/local
15:28:36 <mikl> you can hardly say the same for /Users
15:29:06 <planetmaker> it is the same savety level, though
15:30:10 <Alberth> it is a clear sign they think they own /usr/local that is something they should NEVER consider imho
15:32:32 <planetmaker> which actually is a sign to stop reading on immediately :-)
15:33:04 <Qantourisc> hmm ECS makes the game a "litle" to complicated :)
15:33:09 <Qantourisc> something in between to start out with ?
15:33:27 <Yexo> firs? not sure how difficult that is though
15:33:59 <Yexo> you could also try pbi, but I'm not sure if you can disable the stockpile limits in that set
15:34:21 <mikl> Alberth, planetmaker well, I don't think that this is such a huge issue, but I have better things to do than try to convince you otherwise :)
15:35:02 <planetmaker> as there's no argument in your favour
15:36:30 <Alberth> eh, Pathzilla is building trams!
15:38:39 <mikl> well, I would probably fail, but not necessarily for lack of arguments ;)
15:38:54 <Alberth> Yexo, Qantourisc: FIRS is very nice, no stockpile limits, no industries disappearing by default, you just get a little lost with all the new cargoes and industries
15:39:08 <Qantourisc> i get lost over the version error :)
15:39:13 <mikl> but this meta-argument is boring, I'd rather build some railroads :)
15:39:46 <Yexo> Qantourisc: it means you need a nigthly
15:41:29 <andythenorth_> you can't disable stockpile limits in PBI
15:41:36 <andythenorth_> Pikka considers 'evil' a core feature :D
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15:43:01 <planetmaker> where is in the code the generation of the train purchase list?
15:43:14 <planetmaker> I'm searching it somehow in vain currently...
15:44:54 <planetmaker> hm... vehicle_gui.cpp I guess
15:45:59 <Yexo> build_vehicle_gui.cpp I think
15:46:45 <planetmaker> hm, that sounds better :-)
15:46:51 <Yexo> starting at line 906 to be exact
15:56:36 <Yexo> or if you mean the base cost: PR_RUNNING_ROADVEH is used for both trucks and busses
15:57:40 <AveiMil> i meant the induvidual ones
16:01:00 <Alberth> I aplogize, I could not help myself :)
16:01:18 <AveiMil> damn, that's a lot to go through :P
16:02:13 <planetmaker> Alberth: may I now be disappointed as I gave the link already? ;-)
16:02:46 <Yexo> planetmaker: did you really expect him to remember that? :p
16:03:02 <AveiMil> now that I see it I remember it
16:03:04 <planetmaker> actually I gave the link to the svn repository instead of hg
16:03:25 <Yexo> I know, but your link dropped from my irc history, and personally I always use the hg webinterface
16:03:30 <Alberth> yeah, that was a different repo :)
16:03:52 <AveiMil> Comedy cars, is taht toyland?
16:04:38 <AveiMil> who plays with toyland really?
16:04:40 <Alberth> Ploddyphut MkI Bus is toyland
16:04:47 <planetmaker> Alberth: Toy-land with hyphen?
16:05:10 <AveiMil> Why do you like toyland?
16:05:34 <planetmaker> and... why sub-arctic if we use arctic everywhere else?
16:05:34 <Alberth> nice colourful industries / vehicles
16:05:41 <planetmaker> AveiMil: because it's nice!
16:05:51 <frosch123> it has detailed animations
16:05:57 <Alberth> planetmaker: will fix it
16:06:16 <frosch123> and because i like to transport 600 bags of sweets :p
16:06:28 <frosch123> AveiMil: of course we are only playing with ogfx
16:07:04 <planetmaker> and transporting toys... is nice, too. Especially in the winter months
16:07:18 <planetmaker> hm... me suddenly has a Christmas game idea
16:10:43 <andythenorth_> Christmas newgrf?
16:10:51 <AveiMil> hmm, before I start doing this which will probably take quite a bit of time my way, can any of you bright minds look at this and see fi there's an easier method to do the same thing I've done for trains with trucks? http://www.aveimil.com/misc/temp.txt
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16:12:33 <planetmaker> thanks Alberth for that documentation update :-)
16:13:19 <Qantourisc> can i specifiy the datadir from cli ?
16:13:30 <Qantourisc> the makefile agains are pain in the bum (like all make files)
16:13:41 <Alberth> I was waiting for a game to progress through 10+ years, so I had some idle time :)
16:14:56 <andythenorth_> how to have cb36 fire in the buy menu
16:15:03 <andythenorth_> whilst using cargo FF
16:15:11 <andythenorth_> and also not replicating varaction2
16:15:27 <Alberth> Qantourisc: ./openttd -h doesn't give that option, but you can make a softlink in the data dir (I think)
16:15:54 <Qantourisc> if one know where that dir is
16:15:56 <frosch123> andythenorth_: mulitple varact2 can reference to the same varact2
16:16:12 <frosch123> so you can have ff and default cargochains, which merge later for cb36
16:16:15 <andythenorth_> they'd need to return different graphics results though
16:16:21 <andythenorth_> I have some code from DJ Nekkid
16:16:27 <andythenorth_> it checks vehicle length
16:16:50 <frosch123> using unavailable variables is going to break somewhen
16:18:21 <andythenorth_> is there a better way?
16:18:27 <andythenorth_> can I just check the cargo?
16:18:32 <andythenorth_> or is that too obvious :P
16:18:45 <frosch123> no, the cargotype gives you the default cargo
16:19:13 <frosch123> as i said, you can merge varct2 chains later, you do not have to duplicate the whole chain for purchase list
16:19:53 <andythenorth_> I am failing to see how?
16:20:15 <andythenorth_> I see at least one way
16:20:36 <andythenorth_> two varacts handling cbs
16:22:42 <Qantourisc> weird INSTALL_DATA_DIR is configured correctly now, but still no go
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16:25:43 <planetmaker> AveiMil: as I said... it's hardly visible what you do with the single engines due to your formating
16:26:28 <planetmaker> param[10] = 100; // Steam Engines Purchase Cost (150 = 50% more expensive) <-- I'd write that comment as "in % of the default purchase cost"
16:28:50 <Qantourisc> bring the debuggers !
16:29:35 <AveiMil> but to do this with trucks as well
16:29:40 <AveiMil> I just have to start doing it manually?
16:30:48 <AveiMil> and about the formatting it's very simple in my head, each line is one engine and each line does the same really, so it's easy to view
16:31:00 <AveiMil> if you know what's on 1 line, you know the others
16:31:38 <Qantourisc> What was the program one could use to watch a porgrams kernel calls again ?
16:36:27 <Qantourisc> now i need the base set
16:36:31 <Qantourisc> cause i miss a few sprites
16:36:34 <Qantourisc> or can i ignore that?
16:39:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
16:55:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21101 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Doc: Additions and clarifications of doxygen comments
16:55:39 <Qantourisc> in FIPS what is a "store" ?
16:56:16 <Qantourisc> nvm accepts food :D
16:56:20 <andythenorth_> some kind of shop
16:56:34 <andythenorth_> right now there's only one kind
16:56:38 <andythenorth_> in future there'll be more
16:57:06 <andythenorth_> but provided as an industry not a house - for various reasons
16:57:23 <andythenorth_> there could be more layouts for it in future, but depends on this:
16:58:43 <Qantourisc> if i got a but-load of "tons of food" where to put them ?
16:59:06 <andythenorth_> what climate are you playing?
16:59:18 <Qantourisc> temperance or how it is called
16:59:23 <andythenorth_> send them to the store
17:00:05 <Qantourisc> they are hard to spot :D
17:00:10 <Qantourisc> has to use the map to find them
17:00:33 <andythenorth_> one of the reasons they are an industry is that at least then they appear on the map :)
17:01:57 <Qantourisc> I think i got more then i barganded for :)
17:02:07 <Qantourisc> FIPS is not super easy :D
17:02:24 <planetmaker> did anyone claim so?
17:02:28 <andythenorth_> in future we'll give the option for an easier version
17:02:40 <Qantourisc> now doubting between normal or FIPS
17:03:15 <andythenorth_> I'd play normal until you're bored of it
17:03:24 <andythenorth_> then try PBI or FIRS
17:03:31 <andythenorth_> it helps make the game interesting for longer
17:03:44 <andythenorth_> play all three climates - the industries are different
17:03:48 <andythenorth_> don't play Toyland though :P
17:05:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Yexo
17:05:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Alberth
17:05:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v orudge
17:05:38 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Belugas
17:05:49 <Qantourisc> This time i'm going to make a master plan :D
17:06:30 <Terkhen> toyland is awesome :P
17:10:21 <andythenorth_> FIRS doesn't work in toyland
17:11:03 <planetmaker> wow... arctic engines really have A LOT of tractive effort
17:12:25 <andythenorth_> toyland is quite pretty - apart from the ground tiles :P
17:12:52 <Qantourisc> How do you guys plan your main line ?
17:13:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: play it with opengfx
17:13:49 <Terkhen> yeah, I never was able to play on toyland without getting a headache before opengfx
17:13:52 <Jolteon> You know what i'd like to see? I'd like to see the menu screen vary in landscape.
17:14:06 <Jolteon> Like alternate from temperate to arctic to tropical.
17:16:02 <planetmaker> or do you mean the title game?
17:16:35 <Jolteon> I mean the 'game' that plays in the background of the menu when you first open the game.
17:16:40 <Jolteon> Kinda bland how its always the same.
17:17:08 <planetmaker> Jolteon: make a new one for the 1.1 release. The competition is up and running
17:17:22 <Alberth> Qantourisc: I never plan a main line, I build a lot of unconnected lines
17:17:24 <Jolteon> From what i've seen, it'll be temperate based, no matter what.
17:17:36 <Qantourisc> Alberth: also a plan :)
17:17:39 <Jolteon> I just think it'd be nice if the game alternated between 3 different ones, in different regions.
17:17:55 <Jolteon> or even the exact same game, just a different region.
17:18:34 <Alberth> Qantourisc: although if you connect everything to one line, it looks very impressive :)
17:18:39 <planetmaker> now it gets boring with an attitude of "I can't be bothered to even make a submission for a good new title game" :-(
17:19:02 <planetmaker> but at the same time wanting FOUR of them being present
17:19:18 <Jolteon> The day OpenTTD advertises toyland to any amount is the day I quit it.
17:19:28 <Jolteon> Ridiculous thing, should be bombed :p
17:19:37 <Alberth> Jolteon: that can be arranged :)
17:19:43 <Jolteon> Was Chris Sawyer drunk when he thought of it? :p
17:20:22 <Jolteon> planetmaker; I can't be 'bothered' cause I know full well it won't get chosen.
17:20:30 <Jolteon> A) It won't be temperate, B) I'm not that good of a player.
17:21:13 <planetmaker> I don't know where you get your premises from
17:21:28 <planetmaker> I can't judge B) - but why do you think A) holds?
17:21:53 <Jolteon> Temperate is the mode most people play, its logical to assume OpenTTD devs will chose it over another, as it advertises the game to a more broader range of players.
17:22:18 <Jolteon> that, and i've never actually seen an OpenTTD opening game thats not temperate anyway, so why break with tradition?
17:22:31 <planetmaker> btw, Alberth, did you say earlier that TE is not displayed with original acceleration?
17:22:44 <andythenorth_> Jolteon: you are really rather wrong :P
17:22:50 <andythenorth_> go look at the title screen
17:23:05 <Jolteon> I have done, multiple times. Every time I play the game.
17:23:15 <Jolteon> I know everything there is to know about it, andythenorth_.
17:23:25 <andythenorth_> how come you're so wrong then?
17:23:35 <Jolteon> Well, what is it i'm missing?
17:23:39 <planetmaker> [18:21] <Jolteon> Temperate is the mode most people play, its logical to assume OpenTTD devs will chose it over another, as it advertises the game to a more broader range of players. <-- just as the last year we'll put it to public vote
17:23:49 <Terkhen> oh, we get to choose the title game now?
17:23:50 <Alberth> Jolteon: I gues I am not a dev then
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17:23:59 <planetmaker> Terkhen: as last year? yes
17:24:02 <Jolteon> It'll definately be temperate, planetmaker.
17:24:09 <Jolteon> If not, i'll donate £25 to the openTTD project.
17:24:15 <Alberth> planetmaker: nope, users voted
17:24:18 <Jolteon> That is how sure I am the public will vote a temperate :>
17:24:35 <planetmaker> Alberth: well. I think we can vote, too. Just our vote is not more important ;-)
17:24:43 <planetmaker> The only one, probably, who cannot vote, is me
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17:24:58 <planetmaker> I run the competition
17:25:03 <Qantourisc> Ps what weight modifier do you guys use ?
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17:25:20 <Terkhen> I would submit one, but you are discriminating against toyland :(
17:25:24 <planetmaker> I'd not be trustworthy if I then announce my favourite the winner
17:25:24 <Alberth> Qantourisc: 5 to 10 :)
17:25:39 <Qantourisc> depends on how flat it is i assume ?
17:25:41 <planetmaker> Terkhen: I definitely don't. And actually... please submit toyland! :-)
17:25:44 <Alberth> I know it is insane :)
17:25:49 <Jolteon> planetmaker: Nah, why not? Its fair to assume you'd only vote once, like everyone else, and wouldn't jynx it.
17:25:50 <andythenorth_> the current title game is Arctic right?
17:25:51 <Qantourisc> Alberth: i'm using 10 :D
17:25:53 <andythenorth_> I'm not smoking crack?
17:26:13 <andythenorth_> I mean, I can see fricking snow in it
17:26:27 <andythenorth_> so Jolteon must be smoking crack :P
17:26:35 <planetmaker> and donate 25 pounds :-)
17:26:39 <Jolteon> Not on the resolution I use.
17:26:53 <Jolteon> (1440x900, and 1024 x....something else on the laptop)
17:26:55 <planetmaker> Jolteon: still... the original one is since r0 arctic
17:27:02 <planetmaker> very good point :-)
17:27:23 * andythenorth_ accepts that opengfx toyland looks nice
17:27:27 <planetmaker> and snow even shows on 640x480 window I currently have open
17:27:33 <Jolteon> planetmaker: Where? o.o
17:27:34 <planetmaker> just not on the stable one
17:27:37 <Terkhen> there is a small patch of snow in the top left corner even in 640x480
17:27:44 <sandro> Where should you download it from Chris Sawyer Locomotion?
17:27:44 <planetmaker> in the nightlies. The current stable is the first with temperate
17:27:45 <Terkhen> so that one should be shown in all resolutions
17:27:59 <sandro> Where should you download it from Chris Sawyer Locomotion
17:28:03 <Terkhen> nightlies and all stables except 1.0.x
17:28:12 <Jolteon> sandro: You should pay from it.
17:28:18 <Jolteon> From all good shops, and eBay.
17:28:26 <planetmaker> sandro: wrong channel
17:29:03 <planetmaker> bad luck. Then don't play games which cost money
17:29:17 <Jolteon> sandro: then I recommend OpenTTD.
17:29:34 <planetmaker> and might even be ontopic here
17:29:59 <planetmaker> Jolteon: as we said: except 1.0.x
17:30:18 <Jolteon> andythenorth_ is right, someone must be feeding me crack.
17:30:27 <Jolteon> sandro: We will not support warez. Buy it.
17:30:32 <andythenorth_> never argue about software :P
17:30:38 <andythenorth_> someone else might have a different version :(
17:31:21 <andythenorth_> Jolteon is right
17:31:44 <andythenorth_> well you have temperate
17:31:55 <Jolteon> I thought I was going blind xD
17:32:45 <planetmaker> Jolteon: [18:28] <Terkhen> nightlies and all stables except 1.0.x
17:32:49 <sandro> You want to train tr2009
17:33:21 <Jolteon> planetmaker: er, i thought the current stables were 1.0.*, hence the 'current' ones i was talking about?
17:33:24 <planetmaker> @kban sandro we don't trade with warez
17:33:24 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!~sandro@93.177.182.169
17:33:25 *** sandro was kicked by DorpsGek (we don't trade with warez)
17:34:00 <planetmaker> sorry. I've seen that guy before with the same attitude
17:35:33 <Jolteon> also wow, toyland is actually not inducing a seizure. First time i've played it with openGFX :p
17:37:23 <Terkhen> once that you fix the crazy ground tiles, it is fun to play
17:37:41 <planetmaker> ^ screenshot from current nightlies
17:38:17 <Jolteon> I'll still give you guys £25 if the public vote for a non-temperate though :p
17:38:20 <planetmaker> and that's the same game as since... at least three years, Jolteon ;-)
17:38:46 <planetmaker> Jolteon: then make a good-looking non-temperate game please :-)
17:38:50 <planetmaker> Or maybe you have one...
17:39:24 <Jolteon> planetmaker: 'nice' is not a word I know of. I do what works for the moment and cash I have :p
17:39:52 <Jolteon> and it usually results in a lot of mess and spaghetti junction style stuff.
17:39:57 <planetmaker> cash is no issue ever ;-)
17:39:58 <Qantourisc> lol 10times weight :) top speed: 144, actual speed with load ?: 45 :D
17:40:06 <Jolteon> planetmaker: Is if you cheat :p
17:40:55 <planetmaker> Jolteon: you may for the title game. But after 8 ingame years there's no money issue, if you set up one decent route or so
17:41:13 <Jolteon> planetmaker; I think your friend is back.
17:41:24 <planetmaker> I figured as much, TGV
17:41:30 * Jolteon smirks from the corner.
17:42:11 <Jolteon> So what is the title game, planetmaker? Is it just a saved game OpenTTD loads as it loads the game and plays in the background?
17:42:16 <planetmaker> I'll be much more thorough with my next ban. This channel is about OpenTTD. And any questions for wares or downloads for other games will result in an instant ban.
17:42:45 <planetmaker> It's called opntitle.dat
17:43:03 <planetmaker> TGV: I care very little about that
17:43:10 <Jolteon> So what, is it a full saved game, or just a good bit that was cut out and shoved into a .dat file?
17:43:24 <planetmaker> Jolteon: it's a full savegame
17:43:37 <planetmaker> just rename any savegame you like and copy it over your existing opntitle.dat
17:43:56 <planetmaker> Just mind that newgrfs might make issues, should you not have them. Same with AIs
17:44:08 <planetmaker> So the general rule is: No newgrfs, no AIs
17:44:13 <TGV> Who wants this game ts2009
17:44:34 <planetmaker> @kban *!*@93.177.182.169
17:44:34 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: *!*@93.177.182.169 is not in #openttd.
17:44:45 *** planetmaker sets mode: +b *!*@93.177.182.169
17:44:50 *** TGV was kicked by DorpsGek (planetmaker)
17:45:26 <planetmaker> this ban will work much longer ;-)
17:46:09 <Jolteon> Hm. I might play about then, cheers.
17:46:28 <planetmaker> I've not been talking in suaheli or so to him, right?
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17:56:16 <planetmaker> yes. But I'd align the numbers. And consistently use indentation by tab or space for indentation
17:59:53 <AveiMil> my notepad2 is set to insert space for tab
18:04:59 <AveiMil> damn now I sitll have the ships and airplanes to do
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18:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21102 /trunk/src/lang/malay.txt:
18:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:21 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: malay - 39 changes by rionix88
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20:12:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21103 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Change: Use the same sorting of the sorting criteria for both trains and road vehicles
20:12:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21104 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Doc: Add doxygen commands to a few functions
20:19:35 <avdg> is there a reason why obj-c files shouldn't be parsed by doxygen? *just asking*
20:20:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21105 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Feature-ish: Allow to sort purchase lists for trains and road vehicles by tractive effort
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20:28:58 <Rubidium> avdg: Bjarni didn't add it
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20:42:37 <planetmaker> hm, I should translate my own string...
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21:19:50 <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 250: Unknown property name: max_speed
21:19:54 <AveiMil> What's the correct property name?
21:22:02 <planetmaker> you might rather want to check the nml documentation
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21:22:22 <AveiMil> it dosent' say the properties for airplanes
21:22:25 <AveiMil> only for train engines
21:22:41 <AveiMil> so perhaps only 'speed'?
21:23:03 <planetmaker> I know that it talks about properties common to all vehicles
21:23:14 <planetmaker> then about trains. then rv, then ships then planes
21:28:11 <planetmaker> please keep such questions also in the public channel. Others might be able to answer that when I'm not around. And others might want to know the answers, too
21:28:39 <AveiMil> just noticed the channel was dead for a while, hoping a pm would notify you with sound or something :D
21:28:48 <planetmaker> especially the latter saves to answer the same question(s) more often ;-)
21:29:45 <AveiMil> PR_BUILD_WAYPOINT_BUOY <- BUOY?
21:30:07 <Terkhen> highlighting should be enough for that :)
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21:34:27 <planetmaker> something on water...
21:35:13 <planetmaker> you've never played with ships, eh?
21:35:27 <planetmaker> or never with the English version of OpenTTD...
21:35:49 <AveiMil> I've probably played only 5 hours of OpenTTD
21:36:04 <AveiMil> and 10 hours doing this
21:36:13 <AveiMil> Played TTD as a kid, 12 years old or so
21:36:18 <planetmaker> that's a pretty peculiar ratio ;-)
21:36:45 <AveiMil> but I felt the game was off when I could build without knowing what I'm doing
21:36:51 <AveiMil> and still beat ai/not bankrupt
21:38:29 <Yexo> I'm quite sure I've spend more time coding for openttd (including related things like nml) than playing the game
21:38:45 <planetmaker> :-) Yexo yes, there are people like you
21:39:03 <planetmaker> And... without those it definitely would not be where it is.
21:39:12 <planetmaker> I'm not even sure on which side of the balance I am.
21:39:13 <AveiMil> Yexo, ah, never saw that page
21:39:27 <AveiMil> any of you play Civilization 4?
21:39:53 <planetmaker> I'd need to install windows for that... I tested it in a VM and it was sluggish there
21:40:08 <AveiMil> After all the expansion and with a mod that's one of the best games in the history of games imho.
21:40:16 <AveiMil> Extremely challanging versus AI
21:40:17 <Terkhen> me too, even including the time I played original TTD
21:40:18 <planetmaker> every civ was that
21:40:27 * Yexo prefers civilization II above civ 4
21:40:43 <planetmaker> Civ I was the first game I owned which was not pirated
21:40:56 <planetmaker> and it was damn new back then
21:41:02 <AveiMil> Civ I was the first game I played over IPX
21:41:31 <__ln__> AveiMil: are you saying it had multiplayer support?
21:41:48 <Yexo> again I have to disagree with you AveiMil, I think civ 5 was better than civ 4
21:42:07 <AveiMil> Yexo, because you're probably a casual player :)
21:42:33 <Yexo> could be, I haven't played either version for very long
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21:42:45 <planetmaker> the only two I played much were I and II
21:43:21 <__ln__> I don't recall I having any kind of multiplayer things, but... it was a long time ago.
21:43:22 <AveiMil> Trying to beat Civilization 4 on Immortal/Diety = you will litterally take 1-2 years practicing/learning to get good enough
21:43:52 <planetmaker> but then... there's a reason I play OpenTTD ;-)
21:44:26 <planetmaker> I set my own goals and 'winning' conditions here
21:44:28 <AveiMil> OpenTTD is great, but I tihnk it really needs victory conditions implemented
21:44:40 <planetmaker> it has. 1000 points in 2050
21:44:48 <planetmaker> did you ever reach tycoon status?
21:44:55 <AveiMil> OTHER victory conditions :)
21:44:58 <planetmaker> tycoon of the century?
21:45:05 <AveiMil> So you could play to 1970 and win/loose
21:45:30 <planetmaker> so... just an adjustable victory year? ;-)
21:45:38 <planetmaker> I think we once had that...
21:45:43 <AveiMil> haha, yeah and MORE conditions
21:45:44 <__ln__> AveiMil: the ideas of introducing military concepts into OpenTTD have been rejected, so there can't be VICTORY.
21:45:54 <AveiMil> like first company to transport 50203103103 passengers
21:46:09 <planetmaker> __ln__: that'd mean that there's no winner when playing bridge
21:47:02 <AveiMil> Victory conditions would certainly make this game far better. Great for community as well, players get to compare and strive for "achivements"
21:47:09 <AveiMil> and in multiplayer it's golden
21:47:29 <planetmaker> AveiMil: yes, possibly.
21:50:13 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: the binary in that dmg crashes on launch
21:50:37 <planetmaker> can you give me the crash log?
21:52:08 <ccfreak2k> Maybe even meta-achievements!
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21:52:29 <ccfreak2k> Like suggesting yet another idea for pathfinding and/or signalling.
21:52:39 <AveiMil> Anyone want to help me play test my NewGRF?
21:55:48 <AveiMil> Changes base costs and train/viechle/ship/aircraft costs in an "intelligent" way
21:56:12 <planetmaker> and what others would (also) like...
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21:57:09 <AveiMil> Basically I did not like basecost mods I found available. Like AlternateBaseCostMod was decent, until I found out building a tunnel cost 15 million pounds
21:57:21 <AveiMil> and terraforming 1 tile of land cost a few million or something
21:57:30 <AveiMil> it's fine to increase their cost, but that was redicilous
21:57:37 <AveiMil> migth as well disable that feature
21:58:21 <planetmaker> AveiMil: well... the base costs mods available allow you to change any and every setting which is there...
21:58:40 <AveiMil> couldnt figure out how to do taht with 1.0.4
21:58:49 <AveiMil> and it's more fun to learn this my self from scratch
21:58:55 <planetmaker> using the completely user-unfriendly parameter settings ;-)
21:59:07 <AveiMil> and I doubt it would allow me to change base cost per train category
21:59:11 <planetmaker> that's why nightlies rock :-P
21:59:36 <AveiMil> now, for instance trucks, for each "generation" the new trucks are more cost efficient in terms of running cost, but they're expensive
21:59:43 <AveiMil> so it's a trade off, to upgrade or not
21:59:57 <AveiMil> the original the new bus cost about the same as the old
22:00:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: do you have a crash.log for me?
22:01:24 <planetmaker> AveiMil: that only works as long as you don't enable any vehicle newgrf ;-)
22:01:40 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: right now I have a baby :D
22:02:05 <planetmaker> give him some beer and he'll sleep well :-P
22:02:14 <AveiMil> that's true, my mod only supports default viehcle sets
22:09:04 <planetmaker> AveiMil: and now you modify it such, that you can set the build costs per user-setting parameter
22:09:10 <planetmaker> That'd make it much more useful :-)
22:09:32 <Yexo> planetmaker: nml doesn't have documentation yet for user settings
22:09:34 <planetmaker> basically it'd mean to 'just' add the interface / parameter description
22:09:51 <planetmaker> Yexo: yes... He'll need to have to look at SwedishRails for that
22:10:09 <planetmaker> which covers IIRC every possibility there
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22:11:29 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: 06/11/2010 21:49:53 com.apple.launchd[98] ([0x0-0xb8bb8b].org.openttd.openttd[49011]) Exited abnormally: Trace/BPT trap
22:11:35 <andythenorth_> that's all I've got
22:12:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: osx 10.6.4 I assume?
22:13:04 <planetmaker> should still work... should have been built against 10.4u sdk...
22:13:24 <planetmaker> and has both i386 and x86_64 architectures...
22:13:32 <planetmaker> damn. Thanks for testing, andythenorth_
22:13:47 <andythenorth_> sorry it didn't work
22:13:54 <planetmaker> might be I send more of that stuff your way one day or another. Not your fault
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22:16:59 <AveiMil> planetmaker, will perhaps look into that at a later time
22:17:34 <AveiMil> my main goal is to just make a solid/good configuration
22:17:38 <AveiMil> that provides good gameplay
22:19:35 <planetmaker> AveiMil: that might become an option actually for OpenGFX+Trains or RV... in principle it's possible
22:23:55 <planetmaker> modifying the vehicle purchase costs via parameter
22:24:56 <AveiMil> Haven't looked into OpenGFX+Trains
22:25:02 <AveiMil> is taht new train sets?
22:25:13 <planetmaker> you don't happen to be willing to install mercurial and get a checkout of one of those sets?
22:25:47 <planetmaker> OpenGFX+Trains currently is a re-definition of the wagons. So that you can transport all possible cargos. And which allow refit to a number of them each
22:28:38 <AveiMil> All possible cargos with 1 wagon? eh
22:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> something like "old wagons, new cargos"
22:28:49 <planetmaker> all possible cargos in 9 wagons
22:29:24 <planetmaker> obviously you cannot transport oil in the wagon designed for passengers
22:29:27 <AveiMil> I'm not following, are you saying there's new wagon types?
22:29:34 <planetmaker> but transporting water is possible after cleaning
22:29:34 <Terkhen> the refit idea only made sense to me after I started playing with new industry GRFs
22:29:43 <AveiMil> There's more than 9 wagons in my game now so I'm not following.
22:29:46 <planetmaker> Terkhen: yeah :-)
22:30:04 <planetmaker> AveiMil: :-) I guess you just need to try it out
22:30:17 <planetmaker> download it. Add it to your game. And see
22:30:46 <planetmaker> an early preview version is available from bananas as OpenGFX+Trains 0.1.0
22:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: there can be like 32 cargo types in one game. having 32 different cargo wagons makes no sense. so you combine things like "coal and ore can be carried in the same wagon"
22:54:38 <AveiMil> so there's a lot of cargo types trains can't transport?
22:54:43 <AveiMil> 32 cargo types? really?
22:55:02 <AveiMil> trains already have coal wagons and iron ore hoppers :)
22:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: industry sets can define new cargos, like sand or milk
22:57:20 <AveiMil> are they non-standard industry sets?
22:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: so you want to define the wagons like "the wagon that can transport water, can also transport other liquids like milk"
22:57:53 <AveiMil> Liquid Transport Wagon :P
22:58:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or "the wagon that can transport coal and ore can also transport other cargo like sand and gravel"
22:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> AveiMil: this way, you can create a fairly short list of "cargo classes", which all cargos can somehow easily be divided in
22:59:19 <Eddi|zuHause> then you define one wagon for each cargo class
22:59:31 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of one wagon for each cargo type
23:08:02 <AveiMil> For train stations, in terms of passenger build up, does it matter how many blue squraes are "touching" the twoN?
23:11:03 <SpComb> AveiMil: it's building-specific
23:12:34 <AveiMil> so the more blue buildings inside the coverage zone = the more passangers
23:20:19 <planetmaker> good night here, too
continue to next day ⏵
