IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-30
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02:32:00 <xiong> I bought a road vehicle yesterday.
02:37:48 <Giordano> openttd is very amazing game i have played :)
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02:40:35 <Giordano> i played transport tycoon deluxe since in 199x dos version until now openttd
02:41:13 <Giordano> the creator who make this game is very genius i think :)
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05:49:12 <noom> started playing oTTD a few days ago and had a few general questions if anyones about
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05:53:51 <noom> lols, i like to wait to see if anyones actually here before asking :p
05:54:03 <LaSeandre> whats the question?
05:54:29 <noom> well, i was happily shifting oil to a refinery today and *pop* oil well disapeared
05:54:35 <noom> then there was no oil on the map o.O
05:55:24 <noom> seems i lose resources left right and center
05:55:29 <noom> most of them are gone before the 70's
05:55:35 <noom> could it be because i have no AI ?
05:56:14 <LaSeandre> well, no, that shouldn't really affect it.
05:56:39 <noom> i thought maybe AI filled a gap i couldnt alone
05:56:56 <noom> like maybe they're closing because i wasnt servicing them? i dont really know the mechanics at that depth
05:57:09 <LaSeandre> well, it shouldn't affect services you have running.
05:57:23 <noom> yeah this is what made me decide to ask
05:57:31 <noom> just disapeared with two trains using it
05:57:56 <LaSeandre> robotboy, lil help.
05:58:12 <noom> i'm pretty slow at expanding, so i thought maybe it was just me, but my maps end up really desolate very early on
05:58:29 <noom> and i cant figure out how to find new resources either ... otherwise it owuldnt worry me
05:58:49 <LaSeandre> tbh, im not really the best person to ask, but it does seem strange
05:59:04 <noom> this last game i just gave up on i was down to 3 resource points and it was all coal...
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05:59:38 <noom> ah well, maybe someone will scroll up :p
06:01:39 <robotboy> my understanding for oil is that oil wells close automatically even if they are serviced
06:02:09 <robotboy> ie there will be none by the end of the game but oil rigs should replace them
06:02:18 <noom> ok well, maybe you can help me with this prospecting ?
06:02:35 <robotboy> but the other industry types should hang around if you service them properly
06:02:59 <noom> i struggle to get things built fast enough at this stage, i obviously still have a lot to learn
06:02:59 <robotboy> rigs popup in the 90's I think, look at the wiki
06:03:19 <noom> i've not gone beyond the 80's yet haha
06:05:26 <noom> do you know how to get prospecting "turned on" ?
06:05:30 <noom> i dont ever see new resources
06:17:31 <planetmaker> noom: oil wells are supposed to disappear around the 1970s. Even in the original game they do
06:17:45 <noom> yeah its beginning to make sense now :p
06:17:46 <planetmaker> of course industries also disappear when they're not serviced
06:19:54 <planetmaker> prospecting is found in the adv. settings, industry construction method
06:20:26 <planetmaker> you can also build industries where you like, but it costs you 10x as much as prospecting it anywhere
06:20:42 <noom_> but you cant "buy" resources
06:20:47 <noom_> only the industry counterparts
06:21:00 <noom_> but now that i have prospecting turned on, they should randomly re-appear right ?
06:22:40 <planetmaker> New industries should always appear. Not in a spee, but every so often
06:22:56 <planetmaker> The industry construction method only defines how YOU as player can construct industries
06:22:59 <noom_> industries yeah, but not the resouce points like ore or coal
06:23:16 <planetmaker> they can be funded
06:23:29 <noom_> only stuff like factories, refineries etc
06:23:42 <noom_> but never the resources
06:23:45 <planetmaker> you then always had primary industry construction turned off
06:23:54 <noom_> i only JUST found the setting after you told me :D
06:24:00 <noom_> now i've got it set to prospecting
06:24:08 <planetmaker> that doesn't influence the game's industry construction at all
06:24:08 <noom_> hey...these weird radio tower thingy's
06:24:17 <planetmaker> they're there to annoy you
06:24:33 <noom_> picked the worst spot haha
06:24:49 <planetmaker> you can activate in the cheat menu the magic bulldozer
06:25:06 <noom_> i'm not really one for cheating
06:25:19 <planetmaker> cheating is relative. Important is that you have fun
06:25:29 <planetmaker> whom would you cheat?
06:25:33 <noom_> but i find for me cheats suck the fun right out
06:25:48 <planetmaker> would you use it, if it "just" were another setting?
06:26:02 <noom_> if there was a setting for infinite cash? nah
06:26:09 <noom_> maybe later when i'm just playing it as a sandbox
06:26:17 <noom_> but this early on i'm here for the authentic game experience
06:26:23 <planetmaker> cash is never an issue in these games ;-)
06:26:24 <noom_> as i've never played TTD before
06:27:06 <planetmaker> good way to start: build a coal service initially. Make it a long route and not a short one
06:27:21 <noom_> learnt that off the wiki
06:27:30 <noom_> i'm having issues though
06:27:37 <noom_> i'm on a map right now, with one coal mine
06:27:43 <noom_> it can only fill 3 carts for me :S
06:28:00 <noom_> i mean without telling my train to sit there blocking the lines :p
06:28:20 <planetmaker> do you use "full load" at the coal mine?
06:28:30 <noom_> no i dont like to as its part of a bigger line
06:28:39 <noom_> and i'm not good enough at track building to figure out how to stop the traffic jams
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06:29:33 <planetmaker> the wiki has also a lot on how to build an efficient network
06:29:42 <noom_> yeah i dunno somethings just not clicking
06:29:54 <noom_> wiki is a strain on me also as i have dialup
06:29:59 <planetmaker> but the amount of industries initially on the map is one of the settings you chose when creating a new map
06:30:03 <noom_> really i need a friend RL who's mastered the art to show me hehe
06:30:06 <planetmaker> Of course it depends on the map size, too
06:30:18 <noom_> i'm trying on a 128x128 - less stuff to worry over
06:30:42 <noom_> the thing that's boggling me is "should i make one big line or keep them seperate"
06:30:52 <noom_> i had this track earlier, mid sections had wood going, top end had oil
06:31:02 <planetmaker> noom_: alternatively you could download a few games and have a look at them for reference. Then you don't need to be constantly online
06:31:04 <noom_> but then i had these two engines that'd haul grain and livestock down the entire track
06:31:11 <planetmaker> but 128^2 is really small
06:31:27 <planetmaker> that makes the game actually harder as you only have small distances and less revenue
06:31:32 <noom_> but i dunno it just seemed so inefficient and i had no idea how to make it better
06:31:34 <planetmaker> I like it though ;-)
06:31:42 <noom_> yeah i know, i'm just so overwhelmed right now
06:31:47 <planetmaker> Most people play around 512^2
06:31:59 <noom_> too much going on for my poor little brain :p
06:32:10 <planetmaker> it's a good size which still can be played to the end given usual computing powers
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06:33:00 <noom_> i just put in a 3rd line and i have no idea how to "link" it to my network
06:33:04 <noom_> i tried and failed about 10 times lol
06:33:15 <noom_> it just makes things stop working o.O
06:33:56 <noom_> i think you're right its the fact i'm making no money off my main coal lione
06:34:06 <planetmaker> then cheat yourself money. And try to build a good network first ;-)
06:34:40 <planetmaker> that's easier than first trying to be profitable and then learning to build... as good building makes money-efficiency a side-effect
06:34:59 <planetmaker> but maybe you can even draw more loan
06:35:11 <Alberth> reload an older save game?
06:35:24 <noom_> i'm such a nub i've done nothing worth saving :p
06:35:33 <planetmaker> automatic savegame - if turned on
06:35:44 <noom_> i was about 10 minutes in its no biggy
06:35:54 <noom_> i think i need to learn junctions maybe
06:35:58 <noom_> think thats what i'm missing
06:36:03 <noom_> i can never grow beyond two lines
06:36:11 <noom_> and i cant merge lines either
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06:36:27 <Alberth> sounds like a useful skill to learn :)
06:37:47 <Alberth> moin planetmaker and andythenorth_
06:38:01 <planetmaker> moin andythenorth_
06:38:06 <andythenorth_> we're all very early
06:38:23 <andythenorth_> unless you stayed up all night working on nml?
06:38:26 <planetmaker> your time zone is different ;-)
06:38:31 <Alberth> it is, there is enough light now :)
06:38:51 <planetmaker> shops are already open for an hour
06:38:52 <Alberth> more lying in bed pondering :)
06:39:23 <andythenorth_> I knew consists would be more complicated than they seemed :P
06:39:43 <Alberth> and it was not about consists :D
06:40:20 <Alberth> just vehicle sets with order manipulation
06:40:28 <planetmaker> so what consisted your pondering of? :-P
06:41:02 <planetmaker> -.- too slow for the pun
06:41:32 * andythenorth_ wonders if we can just keep the current system
06:42:13 * andythenorth_ just draws stuff
06:42:21 <Alberth> the sets are contradictionary. on the one hand, you do manual vehicle set creation, on the other hand, if I change an order I'd expect it to sort of jump to a different set by it self.
06:42:59 <Alberth> noom_: he makes FIRS HEQS and FISH
06:43:19 <planetmaker> [08:42] * andythenorth_ just draws stuff <-- a bit of an understatement given the 10 thousands of lines of NFO ;-)
06:43:39 <andythenorth_> I craft each character by hand in pixels
06:43:42 <noom_> i dont know what any of those things are
06:43:49 <andythenorth_> noom_: you have a question?
06:44:18 <noom_> oh no i'm just curious as to what you're talking about :)
06:44:23 <Alberth> planetmaker: compared to the number of pixels he made, 10k lines of characters is nothing :)
06:44:33 <planetmaker> Alberth: it's more 40k lines ;-)
06:44:47 <planetmaker> 25k FIRS and the others certainly 15k combined
06:45:10 * Alberth ponders how much reduction NML would give
06:45:41 <planetmaker> maybe at best 15 ... 20k lines for FIRS
06:45:52 <planetmaker> it's quite efficient, templated code
06:46:15 <planetmaker> though the many #define make it big ;-)
06:46:16 <andythenorth_> sugar refineries are *very* cool
06:46:39 <andythenorth_> there are at least three different styles though :o
06:47:19 <noom_> lol i dont click links sorry :p
06:48:05 <Alberth> you should change HEQS more often, it disappeared from the releases page :)
06:48:35 <andythenorth_> I want to release 0.9.0 but I'm stuck
06:50:49 <noom_> i think i'm doing something wrong with signals, these tutorials i'm reading show them as always green, but mine are always red, whats the deal ?
06:51:30 <Alberth> either there are trains in the block behind it, or you are using path signals
06:52:21 <Alberth> no, they are just a different kind of signals, I am not sure tutorials about the other signals are of any use then
06:52:36 <Alberth> (unless you want to learn about those :p )
06:52:42 <noom_> no they arnt making a lot of sense to me o.O
06:52:47 <noom_> i just want a working network :p
06:52:53 <noom_> dont care what i have to use, i'll learn
06:53:33 <noom_> reading "owens transport" tutorials and they're just confusing me with the signal talk
06:54:15 <planetmaker> you look of ottd descriptions
06:54:50 <noom_> i already had that page open :p
06:55:07 <noom_> yeah this is a nice site
06:55:12 <planetmaker> wiki and that are the best ones around. It can't be explained better IMHO
06:55:18 <planetmaker> The rest is trial and error
06:56:24 <planetmaker> just don't look at any which say "SRNW" or self-regulating network. ;-)
06:56:59 <planetmaker> That's abusing the path finders and ... not what one would usually consider "proper" building or networks
06:58:03 <Alberth> if you upload a save game somewhere, I am sure we can help
06:58:08 <noom_> "the basics" page from TTDX is basically explaining away every issue
06:58:18 <noom_> lol my problem was i'm just completely guessing here
06:58:24 <noom_> i'd never stopped to check out track design
06:58:32 <noom_> just used the wiki for the basics and dove right in :p
06:58:36 <planetmaker> read and try and try slightly different
06:58:43 <noom_> so i had no idea about sharing tracks, merging, junctions etc etc
06:58:45 <planetmaker> use the money cheat for trying out these things
06:58:55 <planetmaker> then you don't have to pay attention to that
06:58:58 <noom_> i'd been doing point-to-point single track setups lol
06:59:03 <noom_> yeah i think i might now planet
06:59:06 <noom_> to learn how to do proper tracks
06:59:38 <planetmaker> it boils down to place signals and use bi-direction tracks
06:59:52 * Alberth is off to the super market for a bit
07:00:43 <noom_> yeah i had gotten onto two-way tracks with signalling
07:00:53 <noom_> but i couldnt merge any new lines into the network
07:00:59 <noom_> so my network turned into giant snakes
07:01:08 <noom_> with only two terminal stations
07:01:23 <peter1138> path signals (the default) are the simplest things ever :s
07:01:36 <noom_> lke "take this steel 10 tiles away" -> "ok but i'm gonna have to run along about 500 tiles of track to get there"
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07:14:24 <noom_> this is beginning to feel very familiar
07:16:00 <noom_> could you say ... signals == logic gates?
07:16:16 <noom_> somethings tugging at my memories of gates heh
07:16:32 <noom_> yeah this is totally just electronic engineering all over :p
07:17:44 <planetmaker> if you mean that: yes, you can build an ALU within OpenTTD, tracks, signals and trains
07:18:00 * andythenorth_ likes the circularity
07:18:10 <andythenorth_> Tech Model Railroad club invented computer games
07:18:18 <andythenorth_> we built a game for modelling railroads :P
07:18:20 <noom_> i've come from dwarf fortress to minecraft
07:18:29 <noom_> i'm so over circuits right now :p
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07:19:24 <noom_> actually now that i think of it circuits in oTTD could be kinda cool
07:19:32 <noom_> the trains would be the data, so you could watch it move around heh
07:20:11 <noom_> but so over my head right now
07:20:19 <noom_> *goes back to his study of signals*
07:21:25 <noom_> DF mechanics / circuits are by far my favourite
07:21:35 <noom_> i mean come on...perpetual reactor :p
07:22:05 <noom_> i've never had more fun with ascii in my life
07:28:17 <planetmaker> peter1138: would you mind to ammend the channel access list by albert, yexo, smatz, terkhen and me?
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08:00:54 <ccfreak2k> dihedral sounds like something you do when you're sick.
08:02:48 <dihedral> dihedral actually describes the (positive) angle between 2 surfaces - checkout some aviation stuff ;-)
08:03:22 <ccfreak2k> I might be checking out some aviation stuff.
08:03:28 <ccfreak2k> I've become interested in ArduPilot.
08:03:40 <dihedral> a negative dihedral angel is known as an anhedral
08:03:52 <dihedral> whats that ccfreak2k
08:05:18 <dihedral> can i put that into my model rc planes? :-P
08:05:28 <ccfreak2k> Actually it's designed to be used in RC planes.
08:06:03 <dihedral> do you know flightgear?
08:06:45 <dihedral> there will be a new release around dec/jan
08:06:53 <dihedral> but it's worth compiling it yourself ^^
08:07:05 <dihedral> the physics in there are awesome
08:07:24 <ccfreak2k> Speaking of flight sims, the software for ArduPilot can be used to fly a plane in xplane or one other simulator, the name of which I forgot.
08:07:44 <dihedral> then you can probably do it with FG too ^^
08:08:20 <dihedral> and if not the boys developing fg should hurry up :-D
08:09:12 <ccfreak2k> By "software" I mean you literally plug the board itself into the computer and feed it sensor/GPS data and take the output as control input.
08:16:27 <dihedral> FG as all sorts of possibly stuff build into it, e.g. various connection stuff
08:17:04 <dihedral> you can have another app display your position by opening the correct socket which pushes gps data
08:17:14 <dihedral> so i think the reverse should be possible
08:17:40 <dihedral> and if not, you can controll about anything with nasal scripts
08:18:49 <ccfreak2k> Oh, the other one is flightgear.
08:20:33 <dihedral> FG and XPlane (IIRC) are both allowed certified for Simulation purposes by the FAA
08:20:59 <ccfreak2k> Xplane certainly is.
08:21:19 <ccfreak2k> I thought for sure on of their selling points is that they were the -only- one with certification.
08:23:18 <dihedral> Xplane is, iirc there was not too long ago a certification for FG's engine but i am not 100% sure
08:24:06 <dihedral> XPlane has managed to get 'out of simulator simulation hours'
08:24:14 <dihedral> by using a certain usb stick
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09:28:48 <planetmaker> Terkhen: doesn't it need assigning those values then to the default vehicles?
09:29:07 <planetmaker> or how's that handled?
09:31:05 <Terkhen> for default vehicles, GetVehicleProperty/GetEngineProperty will always return the default value (last parameter) because they don't use the callbacks
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10:44:20 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: ^ compiling that patch
10:44:29 <andythenorth_> dunno if I'll get working code today
10:44:36 <andythenorth_> I'll try though
10:46:08 <andythenorth_> this is new: make[1]: *** No rule to make target `/Users/andy/Documents/workspace/openttd/media/extra_grf/*.pcx'
10:46:18 <andythenorth_> I've run ./configure
10:46:44 <andythenorth_> this is due to move to pngs?
10:49:11 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: do you use lzma?
10:50:08 <Terkhen> that is probably related to the pcx -> png change in OpenTTD; in that case you need a recent version of grfcodec
10:51:21 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I have png-friendly grfcodec
10:51:29 <andythenorth_> this is maybe something else
10:54:14 <Terkhen> hmmm... I don't know what is the problem then
10:54:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: sure
10:54:52 <planetmaker> otherwise I couldn't compile OpenTTD
10:55:33 <planetmaker> but your error looks like an incomplete update.
10:55:40 <planetmaker> run make mrproper firs, andythenorth_
10:56:07 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: I've got 2 problems compiling ottd - one for lzma and one for missing .pcx
10:56:23 <planetmaker> did you run meanwhile mrproper?
10:56:50 <planetmaker> concerning lzma there's no way around than installing it
10:57:02 <andythenorth_> lzma I've installed with macports, but (as usual) it seems I need to do more :P
10:57:05 <andythenorth_> macports is crap
10:57:29 <andythenorth_> install that, or set a path to it?
10:57:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: it works for me.
10:57:56 <planetmaker> Alberth: things are - as usual - called differently ;-)
10:58:10 <andythenorth_> thanks - installing
10:58:15 <andythenorth_> meanwhile I ran make mrproper
10:58:36 <andythenorth_> now I don't have a target for 'make bundle' :P
10:58:48 <planetmaker> ./configure && make
10:59:07 <planetmaker> why do you build bundles?
11:01:56 <planetmaker> depends, I guess, on how you want to start it ;-) But if you build a bundle, you should - on OSX - use bundle_dmg
11:02:07 <planetmaker> just bundle is pointless
11:02:19 <planetmaker> unless you want to pass it on. And even then.
11:02:36 <planetmaker> it makes sense on other OS
11:02:49 <andythenorth_> I just use bundle which gives me an OS X package
11:03:09 <planetmaker> and bundle_dmg gives you a dmg which you can just click and be done
11:03:23 <planetmaker> if you do nothing bundle-like you can just call bin/openttd and that's it
11:04:05 <planetmaker> pointless might be too string, but... dmg is IMHO the preferred way to distribute things on OSX. And make it user-friendly
11:04:12 <planetmaker> or if you don't need that - no bundle at all
11:04:34 <planetmaker> but... doesn't really matter. If it works for you: fine :-)
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11:13:10 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: compiled ok thanks
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11:22:15 <andythenorth_> so if I use cb36, I have to explicitly set all properties that cb36 can affect!
11:22:36 <andythenorth_> this is unexpected :P
11:22:57 <andythenorth_> or my code is wrong
11:23:12 <andythenorth_> anyone want to bet €1 on the answer?
11:23:44 <planetmaker> if you want to use CB36 you have to set the property which CB36 changes. Of course
11:24:14 <andythenorth_> seems I also have to set all other properties
11:24:17 <planetmaker> But... where is that unexpected? If you want to change it, you have to define it... Or do I miss something.
11:24:22 <planetmaker> That is unexpected
11:24:26 <andythenorth_> action 0 props are now ignored
11:24:47 <planetmaker> You redefine a default vehicle?
11:25:21 <planetmaker> if you don't use a default vehicle, you have to set every property anyway
11:25:27 <planetmaker> whether you use CB36 or not
11:26:05 <andythenorth_> but this way I might as well leave out most of the action 0...
11:26:21 <planetmaker> for new vehicles you must not do that
11:26:36 * andythenorth_ thinks something wrong
11:26:48 <planetmaker> or you'd have a vehicle with everything except some undefined or zeroed
11:26:57 <planetmaker> Or I don't understand your issue
11:27:06 <planetmaker> If you define a new vehicle, you define everything
11:27:52 <andythenorth_> so I have action 0
11:28:01 <andythenorth_> defining all props correctly
11:28:15 <andythenorth_> and I have cb36 changing power
11:28:25 <andythenorth_> but all other props that cb36 can change are ow 0
11:28:45 <planetmaker> despite you dfining them differently?
11:28:48 <planetmaker> That's... not desirable
11:29:04 <andythenorth_> must be a mistake by me
11:29:29 <andythenorth_> assume a full action 0 before that which is tested and known good
11:30:27 <andythenorth_> there is another variable here :)
11:31:20 <andythenorth_> I can't blame Terkhen for this :(
11:32:06 <andythenorth_> I'm returning 00 as the cb result, so this makes sense
11:32:12 <andythenorth_> I don't know what else to do though
11:33:06 <planetmaker> return CB failed. There's a special value for that
11:33:54 <Terkhen> the patch is coded just by blindly imitating train code, so I wouldn't be much surprised if it fails
11:34:40 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I'm coding a train first :P
11:34:47 <andythenorth_> so I know if *my* code is any good :D
11:35:22 <planetmaker> you could look at 2cctrainset
11:35:25 <planetmaker> It uses that a lot
11:35:52 <planetmaker> especially the MUs like ICE etc
12:03:48 *** theholyduck has joined #openttd
12:10:00 <andythenorth_> @seen frosch123
12:10:00 <DorpsGek> andythenorth_: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 18 hours, 17 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: * frosch123 runs to sports :)
12:10:35 * andythenorth_ wonders how to make a cb fail
12:12:25 <Rubidium> andythenorth_: return 0xFFFF?
12:13:33 <andythenorth_> think that's equivalent to return 0xFF80 (due to patch legacy compatibility)
12:14:07 * andythenorth_ sees how to do it
12:14:46 <andythenorth_> return a regular action 2 ID for graphics
12:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> calback failed means you forgot to add 0x8000 to the result
12:18:05 <andythenorth_> sometimes a cb should fail :)
12:18:16 * andythenorth_ ponders a new problem with buy menu & cb36
12:20:25 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: cb36 rv - power is 0B?
12:20:47 <andythenorth_> looks like 0B is setting TE to me
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12:22:41 <andythenorth_> 2,550hp unimog :D
12:23:03 <andythenorth_> I should read the code before asking ;)
12:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause> err... you attached a jet turbine to it? :p
12:23:16 <andythenorth_> power appears to
12:23:19 <andythenorth_> I'll test the others
12:24:38 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: weight, TE and power work
12:24:41 <andythenorth_> we seem to be missing speed
12:28:31 <Terkhen> can you upload the test grf somewhere?
12:28:42 <Terkhen> speed is not covered by this patch
12:30:16 <planetmaker> would be nice ;-)
12:30:56 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: can I request speed? :)
12:30:58 <planetmaker> you know... v2 of the vehicle has 200hp and drives 270km/h instead of only 175hp and 245km/h :-P
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12:31:15 <planetmaker> capacity decreased from 3 to 2, though ;-)
12:32:32 <Terkhen> okay, I'll get to it later :)
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13:10:50 * andythenorth_ ponders orders / consists / groups some more
13:11:05 <andythenorth_> Alberth: how about just improve shared orders and forget the rest of it as too complicated? :P
13:11:14 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: which vehicle is using the callbacks and what do I need to do to activate them?
13:11:26 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: gmund mog
13:11:31 <andythenorth_> there are road and rail versions
13:11:49 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: you should see stupid values for the road version weight / TE / power
13:12:10 <andythenorth_> appears to work in buy menu
13:13:01 <Alberth> how are shared orders broken?
13:13:09 <andythenorth_> Alberth: ask Brianetta
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13:13:45 <Terkhen> it reaches its max speed in 1/4 tile :P
13:14:02 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I think it would haul quite well also
13:14:07 <andythenorth_> ...if we had rv-wagons :P
13:14:48 <Brianetta> Alberth: In so many ways
13:16:18 <Brianetta> Then you have my POV
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13:17:07 <Brianetta> If seven bullet points doesn't explain it, then there's no way I can simplify it for you here.
13:17:38 <andythenorth_> Alberth: how about we change nothing :D
13:17:55 <Alberth> andythenorth_: you are free to do so :)
13:18:00 * andythenorth_ changes nothing
13:18:18 <Alberth> he, please leave nothing empty !
13:18:25 * Brianetta hasn't played OpenTTD for years, principally because he's tired of this brokenness.
13:18:40 <Brianetta> It's not just orders; so much of it has evolved rather than been designed.
13:19:17 <Alberth> Brianetta: it is not that think it is too difficult, it seems just too specific for one style of playing
13:19:19 <Brianetta> Like real lif, this doesn't, and can't, lead to perfection. It's survival of the least crap.
13:19:35 <Brianetta> Alberth: One style of playing is all you have right now.
13:19:42 <Brianetta> I tried to introduce my wife to the game.
13:19:57 <Brianetta> Ordering vehicles confused her to the point of "let's just watch a film."
13:20:07 <Alberth> you told that already 3 times
13:20:14 <Brianetta> She's not the only one.
13:20:29 <Brianetta> The system in place at the moment is intuitive only to those who are used to it.
13:20:52 <Brianetta> Unfortunately, that includes all the devs and almost all of the voices on the forum.
13:21:33 <Brianetta> I'll happily explain my case when asked, like now, but in general I'm disinclined to try to move this boulder of resistance.
13:21:42 <Brianetta> There are other things I can do with my time.
13:25:32 <Alberth> I am happy to include your style, but not at the cost of the existing styles
13:25:44 <Brianetta> for something that has none
13:27:11 <xiong> Brianetta, I'm pretty new to OTTD; I tend not to be swayed by /status quo/ arguments. Which is another way of saying, I'm interested in what you have to say.
13:27:30 <Brianetta> xiong: Good luck with that.
13:28:12 <Brianetta> With what I have to say. You're showing an interest in something I've been saying for several years.
13:28:31 <Brianetta> Experience shows that it doesn't really make any difference.
13:30:30 <Terkhen> now I remember why I did not implement speed callback for road vehicles
13:31:05 <xiong> Brianetta, I'm a realist; but I'm also a progressive.
13:31:46 <Terkhen> should it affect rv property 0x08, 0x15 or a different callback for each property?
13:31:47 <xiong> I believe in the possibility of change and also the difficulty of it.
13:31:50 <Brianetta> Me too. I've just, basically, given up on trying to change OpenTTD. I have plenty of other hobbies (:
13:32:02 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: what do trains do?
13:32:08 <Terkhen> I think that 0x15 should be enough
13:32:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: they don't have two different properties for speed
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13:34:44 <planetmaker> :-( Brianetta only seems to return to abuse OpenTTD development
13:35:11 <Brianetta> I'm usually here. I only pop up when somebody summons me.
13:35:27 <Terkhen> TTDPatch does not seem to implement callback 36 for road vehicle speed
13:35:37 <Terkhen> maybe I should provide callbacks for both properties for compatibility anyways
13:36:21 <Terkhen> oh, it implements property 0x15 too so compatibility is not an issue
13:36:26 <andythenorth_> Terkhen: I have no idea which is right
13:36:30 <Brianetta> OpenTTD development does have a number of issues. Sanctity of the status quo being one, and the lack of design being probably the biggest.
13:36:56 <Brianetta> The game evolves; survival of the best of the submitted patches.
13:37:02 <Brianetta> It's not design-led.
13:37:08 <andythenorth_> no it's like PHP
13:37:19 <planetmaker> Brianetta: then post some sensible stuff in the vision for OpenTTD 2.0
13:37:29 <Brianetta> planetmaker: How would that be useful?
13:37:31 <planetmaker> OpenTTD's goal for 1.0 was to have a completely free TTD
13:37:37 <planetmaker> that is well-achieved
13:37:48 <Terkhen> andythenorth_: I guess that the "right" way is to implement both callbacks and let them have the same priorities that the properties have
13:37:59 <Terkhen> I just doubt that it is useful at all
13:38:00 <Brianetta> That just defines the requirements for a given number.
13:38:14 <planetmaker> Brianetta: you lament about a lack of design or vision or whatever. And then you ask why the same is sensible or useful?
13:38:28 <Brianetta> That's a version number definition
13:38:42 <Brianetta> The closest thing this game has to any sort of design document is the roadmap
13:38:51 <planetmaker> there's no road map
13:38:54 <Brianetta> In any software house, that would be laughable
13:39:00 <Brianetta> There used to be a roadmap
13:39:21 <Brianetta> Oh look, there it is
13:39:29 <planetmaker> yes. And then look who writes it
13:39:41 <Brianetta> It used to be more full of stuff
13:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more like a wishlist of users than an actual roadmap of developers
13:40:28 <Brianetta> Eddi|zuHause: Exactly
13:40:40 <planetmaker> The only way I can understand you currently is that you fail to see your ideas implemented - and call that lack of design
13:40:41 <Brianetta> yet it's still the closest thing to a design document of any sort
13:40:59 <Brianetta> planetmaker: No; my ideas has nothing to do with my argument
13:41:24 <planetmaker> Then please define what you call 'design' in this context
13:41:25 <Brianetta> I've done my fair share of testing, bug reporting etc
13:41:47 <planetmaker> I started playing on your servers. Was my first MP OpenTTD ever
13:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you are right, development is not design-driven. but given the nature of the project, it doesn't need to be and it would probably do more harm than good if it were
13:41:52 <Brianetta> pre version 0.5 I was already getting disappointed at the lack of any clear design
13:42:16 <planetmaker> again: what is 'design' for you in this context
13:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> design-driven development can only work if you have paid developers who you can tell what they should do
13:42:30 <Brianetta> Well, you remember autopilot?
13:42:37 <Brianetta> Design, in this case, is a ring binder
13:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it just doesn't work with open source
13:42:46 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: it can
13:42:52 <Brianetta> although it oculd have been docs online
13:42:53 <andythenorth_> but not with this kind of open source
13:43:06 <Brianetta> Of course it works with open source
13:43:13 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "open source" was the wrong expression
13:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "hobby projects" might be better
13:43:34 <Brianetta> Well, they'll never become more than hobby projects
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13:43:41 <Brianetta> and like I said, I have other hobbies
13:43:53 * Terkhen will just ignore property 0x08 for now
13:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> right, but i see no need for it to be more than a hobby project
13:44:25 <planetmaker> not a hobby project would imply someone would be willing to pay for it
13:44:32 <planetmaker> I don't see that happening
13:44:51 <xiong> When I write code, I plan ahead, too. I write design goals first, then I write tests, then I write code to pass the tests. I document everything thoroughly; I comment heavily.
13:45:00 <planetmaker> besides I've still not seen what here is lacking design
13:45:07 <andythenorth_> it *is* a hobby project yes / no?
13:45:09 <andythenorth_> that's the point?
13:45:15 <Brianetta> Thing is, it's somebody else's hobby. Contributing to it is about as fulfilling as helping somebody else rebuild their car. It's their car, not mine, and I'll never feel like I have a stake.
13:45:46 <xiong> But the plan fact is that OTTD is a 'jest grew' project. Impossible to guide development in any direction.
13:45:51 <planetmaker> then it's no fun.
13:46:26 * planetmaker doesn't nor didn't feel that way. As people usually listen(ed) to arguments
13:46:30 <Brianetta> Simutrans was designed. It's looking like a better game, atm.
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13:46:48 <Brianetta> If I decided to devote time to gaming again I'd probably give it another chance first.
13:47:03 <planetmaker> Honestly: do we get some constructive word of you today? Or not?
13:47:12 <abb-maz> is there a unofficial port of OpenTTD for OS X?
13:47:28 <xiong> planetmaker, You have been here through almost all of the time I've had anything at all to say. You know better.
13:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> abb-maz: if you mean "it usually compiles", then yes.
13:47:56 <andythenorth_> abb-maz: I compiled this morning on 10.5
13:48:00 <andythenorth_> there are binaries in the forums
13:48:35 <xiong> Brianetta, I don't think any of this is meant to be taken seriously.
13:48:37 <planetmaker> xiong: I hear your words, though their meaning eludes me
13:49:18 * Brianetta no longer takes any of this seriously
13:50:06 <planetmaker> but as it's a hobby project... let it go when it's no fun. But stop bitching and spoiling other people's fun
13:50:19 <xiong> planetmaker, You do not have room in this community for radical innovation of the sort that requires a lot of current stuff to be thrown out. New stuff can be added, incrementally; and there's always the possibility that someone will put in a great deal of effort on his own, in some direction.
13:50:27 <Brianetta> I'll happily stick my thoughts on the wiki if asked (and I was asked).
13:50:56 <Brianetta> xiong: There are plenty of big patches that cost loads of hard work which were never included.
13:50:56 <xiong> But there's no overall design or set of guiding principles. I'm not quite sure it's a big deal.
13:51:04 <andythenorth_> there are principles
13:51:11 <andythenorth_> 1. don't break network play
13:51:26 <andythenorth_> I think that's about it actually :P
13:51:46 <planetmaker> 2. try to limit the extend that existing stuff is broken
13:52:03 <andythenorth_> 3. try not to suck
13:52:14 <Brianetta> 4. Try not to introduce change that will confuse and frighten the old timers.
13:52:20 <xiong> Dev has proceeded mostly by seeing a more or less immediately available goal and moving toward it.
13:52:44 <Brianetta> even if that impedes the possibility of other features in the future
13:52:50 <planetmaker> if immediately available is something like two years horizon... maybe
13:53:02 <Brianetta> Timetables, for example
13:53:17 <Brianetta> They don't need to happen because, "Oh, we have those already"
13:53:29 <Brianetta> well, there's a feature with that name, sure
13:53:29 <xiong> It's formless expansion. The thing about this that upsets Platonists, Brianetta, such as you and I, is that this kind of unstructured growth often works, more or less.
13:53:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Brianetta: i think you're wrong there...
13:53:52 <Brianetta> but it doesn't bring the best
13:53:55 <Brianetta> just the least worst
13:54:13 <planetmaker> that's a statement which is not true
13:54:33 <planetmaker> "evolution brings the least worst"
13:54:40 <Brianetta> then you don't understand it
13:54:47 <xiong> Evolution doesn't bring the best or the least worst. It brings what it brings.
13:54:51 <andythenorth_> evolution is not a proper scientific theory, so be careful which claims you make :P
13:54:52 <planetmaker> I do understand quite well how evolution works
13:55:07 <Brianetta> The fittest survive, but aren't necessarily the best solution
13:55:08 <planetmaker> in a darwinistic sense
13:55:14 <xiong> It's not really survival of the fittest; it's survival of what survives.
13:55:19 <planetmaker> I don't say it brings the best possible
13:55:24 <planetmaker> But so doesn't design
13:55:26 <Brianetta> They're simply better than the competition, and adequate for reproduction.
13:55:52 <planetmaker> And often enough evolution brings the besto possible given the available ressources
13:56:04 <Brianetta> we could design better
13:56:11 <Brianetta> but that stuff can't evolve
13:56:14 <planetmaker> then design me an eye
13:56:18 <xiong> What is the best? How would you know it, if you saw it?
13:56:31 <Brianetta> I have a camera here that functions better than a human eye in most respects
13:56:34 <Hirundo> the fact that it can't evolve, makes that it's not 'better'
13:56:40 <planetmaker> Brianetta: that's laughable
13:56:58 * andythenorth_ somewhat regrets starting this, as no useful code is being written :(
13:57:01 <xiong> What is the best? How would you know it, if you saw it?
13:57:17 <Brianetta> having a dead spot on the retina, right next to the maccula, would be improved by nut using an inside out retina.
13:57:26 <Brianetta> Then we wouldn't have problems with them detaching, either
13:57:38 <Brianetta> but that's an improvement that will never be come about by evolution
13:57:46 <xiong> I did not say, How would you know something that was not the best? I said, How would you know the best?
13:57:56 <Hirundo> Now 'design' that, so it can grow from a single cell
13:58:07 <Brianetta> xiong: We don't need to know it, but we should at least strive for it
13:58:57 <Hirundo> If you determine 'quality of design' by our human standards, you'd certainly not be able to determine what is 'best' without horrible mistakes
13:58:58 <xiong> How can you strive for the best if you don't know what it is? How do you know when to stop, when moving in a given direction, if you don't know when you've arrived at the optimum?
13:58:58 <Brianetta> Hirundo: I am not a cytobiologist. I have friends that might know where they could start, but I think you know as well as I do that technology isn't that good yet, and that this point has nothing to do with the argument.
13:59:03 <andythenorth_> comparing OTTD development to darwinian evolution is a bollocks argument anyway
13:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: that should teach you to not wake a sleeping Brianetta :p
13:59:20 <andythenorth_> ottd does not evolve in a competitive environment over 10s of thousands of generations
13:59:33 <Brianetta> well, its patches do
14:00:05 <xiong> andythenorth_, No, disagree, sorry. It's not biological but it is distributed development without strong central control.
14:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> incremental development and evolution are not the same thing
14:00:33 <Brianetta> It's only incremental in terms of commits to trunk
14:00:52 <Brianetta> patches are being developed all the time, many of them compete to serve the same function. Most never make it.
14:01:05 <andythenorth_> it's got nothing to do with the eye as a functional mechanism for living organisms to boost survival / reproductive fitness chances
14:01:32 * xiong is getting bored and thinking about hot chocolate with exactly three mini-marshmallows
14:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> development is always something that imposes changes from outside, whereas evolution is changing from the inside
14:02:00 <Brianetta> Whatever. OpenTTD isnt made any better by this argument.
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14:03:22 <xiong> Brianetta, Do you know anything about this stuff? I'm not meaning to be rude; I don't know you or your level of experience. I have almost none and know very little.
14:03:49 <Brianetta> xiong: Which stuff?
14:04:43 * planetmaker somehow doubts that many people possess a camera which is difraction limited by the resolution, has such a wide zoom range and as good a self-repair mechanism as the human eye
14:04:48 <xiong> So far, I've just about got gameplay figured out, sort of, at some intermediate level. I've written a list of Pennsylvania Town Names and turned it into a .grf but I can't figure out how to distribute it. And I'm trying to design bigger, schematic rail signals but can't interest anyone in it.
14:05:25 <xiong> Um, and I'm in the middle of doing some stuff on the wiki.
14:05:43 <planetmaker> and has such excellent auto-gain
14:05:49 <Brianetta> And I can measure the diffraction of my camera's lens at small apertures
14:06:02 <planetmaker> you need to change lenses, though
14:06:26 <Brianetta> You can't change lenses with a human eye, or zoom the one it has
14:06:38 <lugo> evolution should have had a roadmap
14:06:42 <xiong> Brianetta, Sorry. Do you know anything about the technical side of OTTD?
14:06:49 <Brianetta> xiong: Yes, a fair bit
14:07:02 * Brianetta has dismantled the network code
14:07:06 <xiong> Not to be rude; I'm just trying to get to know you. I know nothing.
14:07:21 <Brianetta> I'm not familiar with the entire code base
14:07:38 <Brianetta> but I've played the game extensively and intensively
14:08:06 <xiong> Okay, well, that sounds to me like you know some stuff. You probably understand NewGRF well.
14:08:25 <Brianetta> I know ow it works, but I've never written any NFO code
14:10:20 <xiong> Work your way through it; I'm on the 003 design now. Tell me if you think it can be implemented.
14:12:52 <Brianetta> I never had much problem seeing and getting information from existing signals
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14:16:15 <planetmaker> hm, these onions are good. They make me cry :-P
14:18:51 <xiong> Brianetta, Well, I have terrible trouble. I imagine other old guys with poor eyesight, esp. new to the game, have similar troubles. It's not so bad if you just signal everything, everywhere with 1-path sigs. But complicated pre-signal layouts are just too hard for me to visualize.
14:19:35 <xiong> So, here it is: I can design the graphics but I don't have the skill to build them into a .grf; others have the skill but lack the inclination.
14:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> coding signal graphics is trivial
14:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but you don't hear me, so i can't help you
14:20:58 <xiong> The point being, I guess, that it's not enough to have an idea, good or not. This is a DIY thing. You say you have ideas; well, great. Are you asking for help? So am I.
14:21:43 <xiong> I suspect I can ask all day but bigsig will never get out until I have the time and desire to learn how to do it all by myself.
14:22:13 <xiong> Considering that I have plenty of work to do, completely unrelated to OTTD, that time may be never.
14:22:15 <Alberth> that holds pretty much for everything that reaches realization
14:22:37 <xiong> Alberth, Disagree. In some circles, mutual support is taken for granted.
14:22:58 <planetmaker> oh, be sure it exists here, too
14:23:05 <planetmaker> I got so many ponies already...
14:23:24 <xiong> Brianetta, I will make a deal with you, though. If you sign up for bigsig, I will make a similar commitment to develop graphics, text, or other things within my skill set for *your* big thing.
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14:23:50 <planetmaker> there exists a commit which reads along the lines of "make planetmaker and Ammler happy" ;-)
14:24:00 <Brianetta> xiong: I'm not developing anything.
14:24:13 <xiong> I have a considerable skill set; it extends to such things as glass blowing. I'm at your disposal.
14:24:31 <Brianetta> You're asking me to learn how to make newgrf for you.
14:24:39 <xiong> Brianetta, Well, I hope you see my point, then.
14:24:57 <Brianetta> it's not like I've done nothing around here
14:25:00 <planetmaker> xiong: the point with your newgrfs is: you only show teasers. you didn't produce any usable sprites
14:25:03 <Brianetta> it's just that I gave up
14:25:22 <planetmaker> as long as you don't do that no one even can help you with the best of intentions
14:25:29 <xiong> planetmaker, Let's talk about that. First, I want to tell my shaggy dog story.
14:25:51 <Alberth> xiong: we care very little for tales, but much more for solid work
14:26:18 <xiong> Way back in the Bad Old Days, I was a member of the L5 Society. We had meetings, we talked endlessly; but we did very little. A common complaint was, "We lack leadership." Gary used to say, "We have plenty of leadership. We don't have enough followership."
14:26:26 * planetmaker picks another onion
14:26:54 <xiong> planetmaker, Alberth, I'm sorry if you don't respect the work I've already put in.
14:27:45 <xiong> You want "a usable set of sprites"? Then you need to say that you will do something with them; you need to be willing to take time to help me with the technical requirements. I've done quite a bit blind, on spec, and got nothing like support.
14:28:21 <planetmaker> xiong: *everyone* who wants to help you needs those sprites. So you may as well produce them
14:28:30 <xiong> I'm not exactly complaining about this; I would have it otherwise but... that's life.
14:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't watch this...
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14:28:57 <xiong> planetmaker, Nobody wants to help. You see the little blank space at the bottom? Nobody has filled that in.
14:28:59 <planetmaker> when I have a pony to grow I go as far as I can go alone. And then ask for help
14:29:14 <planetmaker> You just say "I'll rasie a pony, if someone buys it" oh well
14:29:20 <xiong> You don't like my style. That's fine.
14:30:09 <xiong> It's not your special responsibility to take it up. All your comments have been negative: basically, the idea is silly and unnecessary. I stress that I support your right to see it that way.
14:30:49 <Alberth> xiong: continuing whining about it is not going to get solid work
14:31:09 <xiong> Alberth, Where is the 'whine'?
14:31:13 <planetmaker> xiong: I've already coded stuff which I personally care very little about but which others find useful. So even if I personally don't like something graphically I can like it for its purpose and enough other people taking a fancy
14:32:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21058 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp newgrf.cpp newgrf_properties.h roadveh.h): -Feature [NewGRF]: Add CB36 support for road vehicle properties 0x13 (Power), 0x14 (Weight) and 0x18 (Tractive effort).
14:32:18 <xiong> You're not willing to meet me where I ran out of gas. I can't go further. Therefore, the truck is dead, until either someone takes an interest or I learn more. That's fine.
14:32:18 <Alberth> xiong: so what have you been doing the last 10 minutes then?
14:32:59 <xiong> Alberth, Are you going to get into this groove where you just decide that anything I say is BS? Tell me now. Because then we can /ignore each other and live in peace.
14:33:50 <Alberth> xiong: if you want those signs, stop talking, and start drawing. Whoever is coding, you need finished sprites first
14:33:58 <xiong> What I've been doing for the last 45 minutes is try to explain to Brianetta my view of his view.
14:34:12 <xiong> Alberth, You really don't get it, do you? I drew.
14:34:17 <planetmaker> xiong: all he (and I) say is: you talk about what you would do but don't do as _we_ - in your eyes - would not like it. Oh well
14:35:13 <planetmaker> or in other words: if you want something done: invest more than a concept
14:35:46 <xiong> planetmaker, I meant to word it more strongly. You just can't expect a lot of help around here. You do for self.
14:36:22 <xiong> My project will move forward when I learn more or not at all.
14:36:33 <xiong> Same thing for whatever Brianetta's ideas may be.
14:36:47 <planetmaker> you just need to draw.
14:36:54 <planetmaker> you were told all necessary ressources.
14:37:05 <planetmaker> And all which followed is you telling us what you might do if
14:37:09 <xiong> planetmaker, What part of 'draw' am I missing? Do you see the sketch?
14:37:20 <planetmaker> I see a sketch. But not more
14:37:29 <xiong> Now it is time for somebody to join me, or for me to learn to do it all myself.
14:37:52 <xiong> 'Usable' comes when I learn what 'usable' is.
14:37:54 <planetmaker> you just need to draw the sprites
14:38:10 <planetmaker> and I showed you how the existing signal sprites look like. So
14:38:12 <Alberth> xiong: look at existing signal sprites
14:39:00 <planetmaker> make for each existing one, one of your own design and it's 75% of the job done
14:39:06 <xiong> Listen, you guys. You are going to stand there, three feet away from me; and you are not going to budge. I'm going to stand here, three feet away from you; and I'm not going to budge. I'm not trying to move you, not anymore. Why try to move me?
14:39:47 <planetmaker> xiong: then tell us: what help do you need?
14:39:52 <planetmaker> which we can provide?
14:39:58 <planetmaker> at this point of your "project"
14:40:03 <xiong> I *require*, absolutely, a commitment.
14:40:22 <xiong> That's first. That's not a joke nor do I consider it a trivial issue.
14:40:40 <Alberth> why do you require that, and why should we give that?
14:41:08 <xiong> I don't feel comfortable discussing the project here, at all, especially in the face of lack of interest. I raised the topic solely as an object lesson to Brianetta.
14:41:36 <xiong> Alberth, Do you, personally, have the slightest interest in bigsig? If not, then the point is moot.
14:42:33 <xiong> You have your value scale; I have mine. I don't want to argue you out of yours. Okay?
14:43:08 <Alberth> I won't use bigsig, but if I can make you happy in 10 minutes, why not
14:43:23 <xiong> Because it won't take 10 minutes.
14:44:10 <Alberth> coding by an experienced NFO coder will take about that much time, if not less
14:44:12 <xiong> It would probably take more than 10 minutes to explain it to you. I would say why, and you would ask why again, and so forth.
14:44:32 <xiong> Why should I inflict this on anyone?
14:45:09 <xiong> I wrote up a good thread. The thing is out there. Perhaps it will attract interest. Perhaps I'll come back to it in a year or 5. I dunno.
14:45:13 <Alberth> I am not the person you want for that job, but if you make the project to that point, I am sure someone can put some nfo code around it
14:45:50 <xiong> Also, 'to that point' is hotly contested.
14:46:27 <xiong> I don't know what 'that point' is and it will take considerable time to get 'that point' across to me, because I ask questions.
14:46:29 <planetmaker> xiong: see: the fact that this discussion exists makes me quite sceptical that there even if I should say - boah, great, I want that and I'll see what I can do - (and I did say that already!) - it will ever see any work from you
14:46:52 <planetmaker> As such I won't at any point repeat any commitment statement
14:47:05 <Alberth> 'that point' is a set of actually usable signal sprites in a correct image format, it is as simple as that
14:47:06 <planetmaker> my trust was so far disappointed by you on all levels
14:47:09 <xiong> I showed work of mine. I don't recall anyone paying much attention.
14:47:48 <xiong> I worked up Pennsy Town Names and you have yet to do anything with it.
14:48:13 <xiong> Well, that's my point. You don't trust me; I don't trust you. There it is.
14:48:21 <Alberth> didn't you refuse to publish them properly?
14:48:32 <xiong> Alberth, I don't know how!
14:48:40 <planetmaker> they're done. And you fail to release them. And more important: I didn't receive anything from you. So I can say you lie that I *could* have done anything at all
14:48:56 <xiong> I emailed you, as you suggested.
14:49:23 <planetmaker> never received anything. Besides I told you: it's fine as is. Just upload it
14:49:24 <Alberth> post at the forum, get an account at bananas, add them there
14:49:53 <planetmaker> Alberth: that newgrf is even finished. He just needs a buddy to upload it *somewhere*
14:50:03 <xiong> Alberth, this is a question of planetmaker's ability to take over another person's work.
14:50:24 <planetmaker> I'm not interestend in the town names myself much.
14:50:28 <Alberth> xiong: in my view, an author himself should release his own work
14:50:47 <planetmaker> Besides the work is done. So I don't see where I have to be involved. AND I DIDN'T RECEIVE ANYTHING
14:50:49 <xiong> There's more to be done; I don't know exactly what. Part of it is the license issue. But really, at this point, I just want to see you pick up anything where I leave off.
14:50:55 <Alberth> I don't see why anyone else would have to do that
14:51:02 <xiong> Alberth, I consider the authorship shared.
14:51:19 <xiong> There's no 'have to do' here.
14:51:22 <Alberth> you heard pm, he is not interested in shared authorship
14:51:41 <xiong> Ah, but then he raised an objection to my licensing intent.
14:51:51 <Alberth> ie it was a gift of time to you to finish the set
14:52:08 <xiong> planetmaker, Would it make any difference if I tried to email you again?
14:52:51 <xiong> Alberth, Look, I don't see what you're trying to do here. Do you even want to know every bloody detail?
14:53:12 <xiong> I mean, really. I don't see the point of whipping this up into a froth.
14:54:44 <xiong> planetmaker, I email you. You say you didn't get. Should I email you again?
14:54:58 <xiong> Would you like to offer an email addy?
14:55:10 <planetmaker> xiong: I consider that newgrf 100% your work. Not mine
14:55:16 <planetmaker> I'm not a newgrf publisher
14:55:58 <xiong> Fine. But then I will remain convinced that it will be a bad bet for me to invest work in a project, hoping you will step in and help. Do you see that?
14:56:17 <xiong> You are not willing to commit. I am.
14:56:35 <xiong> But I'm not willing to go further on spec, without anyone else committed.
14:58:04 <xiong> I've already committed heavily to bigsig. I've written in forum, I've drawn sketches, and I've formally committed to handling the graphics. I'm not shy. Nobody else is willing to say even one line: 'Yeah, I'm in.' Silly for me to continue. \
14:58:25 <planetmaker> xiong: the issue I have with _your_ town names is two: a) I would feel like betrying you for half the fruits of your work and b) it would do you good to be able to publish yourself, so I don't want to become your publishing slave for the future to come
14:59:29 <planetmaker> AND: this is definitely not a work you cannot do yourself. So you do not NEED help
14:59:34 <xiong> Bigsig will come out when I learn enough to bring it out myself. I understand this.
14:59:41 <planetmaker> So I don't see where you get the 'I get no help and support'
14:59:57 <planetmaker> I walked you through writing the newgrf happily. But it's your work. Not mine
15:00:10 <planetmaker> I see my task in helping you grow accustomed to how things work
15:00:23 <xiong> I didn't say that at all. I appreciate the help you've already given. But you're not reliable about it, that's all. Nor do you need to be; this isn't $work.
15:00:24 <planetmaker> Not mine in co-sharing every project you might ever take a fancy in
15:01:07 <xiong> I don't blame you for anything. I don't demand anything from you.
15:02:00 <xiong> I don't go around saying you are a bad person. I just say, I can't trust you to finish my work. You say, you don't want to finish my work. So, I think we *agree* here.
15:02:35 <xiong> Nobody else says, Yes, I want to work with you. That's okay too. We're free.
15:04:29 <planetmaker> you constantly demand 'commitment'
15:04:55 <planetmaker> and you demand it without having produce any work except than illustrating an _idea_
15:05:04 <planetmaker> (talking of bigsig)
15:05:24 <planetmaker> concerning the town names: where do you need commitment? It's finished. You just need to present your work to the community
15:05:29 <planetmaker> That's not my role
15:06:36 <planetmaker> I happily took your hand to the point where that grf is. And I'm severly disappointed that you fail to make your work available to the community
15:06:44 <planetmaker> More so as it means you wasted my time
15:07:06 <planetmaker> As I consider my task to help the community. But my help was wasted in that sense. So far
15:07:29 <xiong> planetmaker, You see that forum thread? Do you think no time, no work went into what I did? It's all shite? Fine; you're entitled. But if you don't respect that, then I don't have any reason to expect you'll respect anything else I do.
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15:08:29 <planetmaker> I do think you put thought into that. But you fail to do follow-up work which can only be done by you
15:09:16 <planetmaker> that's got nothing to do with missing respect
15:09:24 <xiong> If you begin with the presumption that, after my having written those posts and committed in the strongest possible language to completing the graphics -- to working on the project to the limit of my ability -- that I will not do as I say, then you are deeply mistrustful person.
15:10:02 <xiong> I say, it is now time for at least one other person to join the project. You say, you don't want in. That's fine. Nobody is twisting your arm, dude.
15:10:06 <planetmaker> I've no trust issue
15:10:27 <planetmaker> And it's not yet time any ohter person can help you for that bigsig project
15:10:34 <xiong> I would retract the point if I were convinced otherwise.
15:10:46 <planetmaker> Showing that you fail to publish the townnames kinda enforces my scepticism,
15:11:14 <planetmaker> xiong: I've participated in a number of newgrf projects. So I think I know how it can work
15:11:22 <xiong> With penntowns.grf, it is now your turn. It's your turn because I stopped. That's how it goes.
15:11:24 <planetmaker> And a pre-condition is: *some* sprites existing
15:11:44 <planetmaker> I've no stake in your townnames. You just made me author without asking for it
15:11:50 <xiong> If you don't pick up where I left off, then the project dies. That's how it goes.
15:12:01 <xiong> No, Sir. You wrote code into it.
15:12:16 <xiong> I copied it right out of the pastebin. I'm careful about this sort of thing.
15:12:35 <lugo> planetmaker, it's your fault helping him, don't you see?
15:13:03 <planetmaker> I fail to see why I need to publish his work. I won't do such baby-sitting. Simple
15:13:07 <xiong> Not fault, lugo. He helped; I appreciate it.
15:13:27 <planetmaker> xiong: exactly. helped. But it is your project and responsibility. Not mine
15:13:37 <XeryusTC> xiong: if it's your project then you're responsible for keeping it alive, not pm
15:13:39 <planetmaker> there's nothing left to do
15:13:50 <xiong> You don't consider that you have any need to involve yourself further. Okay. But then, I will assume that the next time I get stuck, you will also say, 'Not my problem'. That's all.
15:15:24 <xiong> I think I've explained myself in the same or different words at least 5 times now. Mine is an *opinion*; it's not a technical issue or matter of fact. I can't be argued out of it because it's an opinion, my viewpoint.
15:15:36 <XeryusTC> This is not primary school, if you get stuck you can ask for help but that is the end of the line whether you like it or not...
15:16:26 <xiong> Up to this point, I thought I might not have made myself clear. I think I've done this, now. I'm just not going to go on with it. I'm sorry. I'm not going to say anything more about this until someone says something new.
15:17:13 <xiong> XeryusTC, I don't mean to be rude but you are going over old ground. If you want in on bigsig, great. Sign up. Otherwise, hey, let's be friends.
15:19:44 <Alberth> __ln__: do you still have the ", that" patch? Perhaps it can be split into 'trivially correct' and 'others'.
15:19:51 <planetmaker> xiong: telling us here that writing a posting along the lines of "here's my town name newgrf" being beyond your ability and you being stuck there... well. Interesting
15:20:09 <XeryusTC> Not a soul on the internet is interested in helping unless you have something to show, get used to it ;)
15:21:01 <planetmaker> it's incredible and implausible at best given your lengthy definition postings relating to bigsig. So the ball is all in your part of the playground
15:21:30 <planetmaker> besides: I never played on the townname game. It's not my work.
15:21:37 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you just want to have the last word? Or do you understand me clearly?
15:21:45 <planetmaker> and meanwhile: please remove my authorship there
15:21:46 * Alberth gives planetmaker another union
15:22:43 <planetmaker> xiong: honestly I don't understand you. yes
15:23:41 <xiong> Okay. Then I will explain, just one more time. I'll ask you to let me finish. There are 3 distinct issues related to your involvement with penntowns.grf. They are not all coupled.
15:23:56 <planetmaker> a) I'm not involved
15:24:02 <xiong> 1) Like it or not, you contributed actual code to the .grf. You can disclaim responsibility, of course.
15:24:06 <planetmaker> b) I merely provided some advice
15:24:32 <planetmaker> xiong: I didn't. The other townname newgrfs are not written by me
15:24:44 <Alberth> planetmaker: oh, it's spelled "onion". sorry
15:25:08 <xiong> You're not going to let me finish. You said you didn't understand. Should I have asked if you *wanted* me to explain?
15:25:12 <planetmaker> I'm currently rather cutting leeks
15:25:56 * planetmaker does :-) They're part of French Cheese soup
15:26:40 <XeryusTC> xiong: you plagiarising someone's code is not contribution, even if the code was deliberately given to show how to do something, that is called an example
15:27:26 <xiong> XeryusTC, Do you really want to have a dog in this fight?
15:27:45 <Alberth> __ln__: is such a split of any use, or shall I simply go through all of them?
15:27:58 <xiong> I'm going to post to forum. I think it's silly but I'm just not going to say another word about this in chat. It's absurd -- it was absurd a week ago.
15:28:47 <Alberth> __ln__: (but after dinner :) )
15:29:34 <__ln__> Alberth: I think the ", that" things are trivial.. so no need to split. the "etc" in the patch name suggests there's something else fixed too, but can't remember what it was.
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15:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> please tell me the madness is over...
15:34:18 <__ln__> it's not as intense anymore
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15:37:47 <lugo> pretty good timing Eddi|zuHause
15:38:56 <Eddi|zuHause> you should be! :p
15:39:24 <Eddi|zuHause> you know fully well how discussions with certain people turn out
15:39:32 <planetmaker> indeed I am. Local channel settings adjusted :-P
15:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> brb... kernel update
15:39:58 <planetmaker> but I do believe in the good of people
15:48:38 <Zuu> At least your discussion gave me something to read while assembling ikea furniture. :-)
15:52:04 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd
15:52:59 <Zuu> only two chairs, two sofas, and a bureau to go :-)
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15:56:08 <__ln__> Zuu: sounds like you should be watching Fight Club.
15:56:59 *** ^Spike^ has joined #openttd
15:58:33 <Zuu> I'm actually going to away to a dinner tonight (good with food that you don't need to cook), but tomorrow it will be an assemble day.
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16:49:57 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Commit by terkhen :: r21058 /trunk/src (4 files) (2010-10-30 14:31:49 UTC)
16:49:58 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: -Feature [NewGRF]: Add CB36 support for road vehicle properties 0x13 (Power), 0x14 (Weight) and 0x18 (Tractive effort).
16:50:20 <Terkhen> speed will take more time, as I'll have to unify a bit of code between trains and road vehicles first
16:50:20 <andythenorth_> I'll make proper use of that in HEQS
16:50:35 <andythenorth_> if you get speed done, I can release HEQS 0.9.0 :)
16:50:43 <andythenorth_> maybe we release them together :o
16:51:14 <andythenorth_> Alberth: sorry about that earlier :P
16:52:11 <Alberth> np, we were sort of finished, weren't we?
16:52:21 <Terkhen> great, that would be perfect for testing if I did any mistakes while implementing the callbacks
16:53:24 <andythenorth_> Alberth: how is the new TV?
16:53:51 <Alberth> will try more tomorrow morning :)
16:55:19 <andythenorth_> Alberth: I wonder if there should just be 'groups'. All trains in them are just identical clones of each other
16:55:40 <Alberth> __ln__: src/station_cmd.cpp hunk @@ -2139,7 +2139,7 @@ the original seems better
16:55:43 <andythenorth_> everything identical - orders, consist, anything else that can be set
16:56:08 <andythenorth_> players don't get to move vehicles between groups.
16:56:16 <andythenorth_> they can add another train to the group, or trash them
16:56:59 <Alberth> that seems a simple enough approach to work.
16:57:20 <andythenorth_> if one train in the group is changed, all change to match it
16:58:01 <Alberth> that'll be chaos for the unsuspecting player :)
16:58:48 <__ln__> Alberth: i agree if the expression after comma is "that is" (i.e.). but is it.
16:58:54 <andythenorth_> well any system involving magic has the chaos problem
17:00:16 <Alberth> __ln__: I see it as a further explanation (badly worded, so I'll fix that)
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17:00:53 <andythenorth_> basically remove existing concept of individual vehicles - each with orders and own consist etc
17:01:00 <andythenorth_> replace with 'lines' or 'services'
17:01:16 <andythenorth_> you don't manage individual vehicles. You just + / - vehicles to the group
17:01:35 <andythenorth_> the window showing individual vehicles could be removed
17:01:49 <andythenorth_> could just show the groups - and the count of vehicles in each, and the total profit (loss)
17:03:39 <andythenorth_> no need for autoreplace either
17:04:04 <andythenorth_> might be better if vehicles could just change though - without going to depot
17:04:15 <andythenorth_> and ideally vehicles could be created / trashed without needing a depot
17:04:56 <Alberth> No can do. I will not introduce a new way of playing at the cost of discarding the current one. (Changes are discussable, throwing it all away not, imho, unless you have VERY convincing arguments.)
17:06:00 <Alberth> I think you are refering to a different tycoon game
17:06:16 <andythenorth_> it does work in the other game
17:06:28 <__ln__> andythenorth_: say "XML", it sounds very convincing
17:06:30 <andythenorth_> trains are created at the first station in their order list, and can be retired at any time
17:07:13 <andythenorth_> how about a scripting language for orders?
17:07:34 <andythenorth_> which could also manipulate all the mutable properties of a vehicle?
17:07:45 <andythenorth_> scripting language for vehicles /s
17:08:04 <andythenorth_> that way vehicles become autonomous agents on the network
17:08:22 <andythenorth_> :o what if the language allowed them to communicate :o
17:08:30 <Alberth> __ln__: /* The noise level is the noise from the airport and reduce it to account for the distance to the town center. */ <-- I just rewrote it :)
17:09:35 <Alberth> andythenorth_: scripting is a good way to get desyncs all over the place in a MP game.
17:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i really didn't like the railroad tycoon kind of train handling
17:10:04 <__ln__> Alberth: good. indeed my patch did neven attempt to rephrase things even when it could have been better.
17:10:05 <andythenorth_> what else could we do that's completely different?
17:10:56 <blathijs> We could make the game 3D rendered!
17:11:04 <andythenorth_> doesn't affect groups much :P
17:11:11 <andythenorth_> we could drive 1 train each
17:11:30 <andythenorth_> why invent consists?
17:11:49 <andythenorth_> what's good enough about current auto-replace?
17:12:24 <andythenorth_> or not good enough?
17:13:06 <Alberth> good: it replaces engines. not good enough: some players want to change more
17:13:46 <andythenorth_> michi_cc: can't test tonight, but remind me tomorrow....
17:14:07 <Alberth> add wagons is popular, I believe
17:15:28 <andythenorth_> so current auto-replace is simple
17:15:43 <andythenorth_> for x in list, transform x to y
17:15:57 <andythenorth_> (and shorten train if necessary)
17:17:05 <andythenorth_> matching to a consist is different...
17:20:04 <andythenorth_> but maybe not much more complicated
17:20:24 <andythenorth_> do consists preserve exact order, or just count of each vehicle?
17:20:31 <andythenorth_> vehicle / wagon type /s
17:21:35 <Alberth> I am not sure current autoreplace is so simple. The first time I tried it, it was quite tricky to get it working.
17:22:12 <Alberth> with consist-changing, hopefully you see more clearly what change you are defining
17:22:52 <Alberth> as for order preservation, what if it stores the change that you enter?
17:23:01 <andythenorth_> current autoreplace has usability problems granted
17:23:47 <andythenorth_> Alberth: seems to me one key issue is: - are there 'consists' as separate entities, or is just a group of trains trying to match each other?
17:25:59 <Alberth> don't understand that, but there is all kind of data seperate for each train (eg loaded cargo, age) how can that be one consist?
17:27:34 <andythenorth_> ok, so - literally - is there some list in memory somewhere of a platonic consist that the train is trying to match to?
17:27:40 <andythenorth_> I think there has to be, I can't see a workable alternative
17:28:37 <andythenorth_> so there has to be a way to manage consists
17:29:29 <Alberth> you need to be able to see which one there are, make new ones, and/or delete ones.
17:29:49 <andythenorth_> what if current groups window was adjusted
17:29:50 <Alberth> sort of replace window
17:29:54 <andythenorth_> groups become 'managed consists'
17:30:13 <andythenorth_> moving a train into a group means it will try and change it's consist
17:30:20 * andythenorth_ remembers railtypes
17:30:44 <Alberth> perhaps it is better if you don't :)
17:30:44 <andythenorth_> a train might not be able to match to a consist due to incompatible railtypes...
17:31:37 <andythenorth_> how does autoreplace handle that?
17:34:17 <andythenorth_> Alberth: current groups really have nothing to do with *setting* orders, right?
17:35:02 <Alberth> not that I am aware of
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17:35:27 <andythenorth_> perhaps this is a good place to start then
17:36:16 <andythenorth_> consists are managed by an updated groups / vehicle list window
17:36:39 <andythenorth_> forget my vehicle sets idea
17:37:11 <andythenorth_> vehicles can only have one consist (group)
17:37:36 <Alberth> unless they have multiple personalities :p
17:37:39 <andythenorth_> vehicles can be 'unmanaged'
17:37:52 <andythenorth_> otherwise the list gets way too long
17:39:00 <andythenorth_> we preserve some kind of autoreplace for both consists and unmanaged vehicles
17:39:59 <andythenorth_> this is all decoupled entirely from orders
17:40:14 <andythenorth_> the only orders connection is current 'add vehicles with shared orders' option for a group
17:40:38 <Alberth> out of the order mess, but hooked firmly in the aut-re{new,place} mess :)
17:40:48 <andythenorth_> at least only one mess :P
17:40:59 <andythenorth_> I don't think orders are too broken
17:41:09 <andythenorth_> autoreplace is both awesome, and massively broken :P
17:41:56 * andythenorth_ drinks wine past its best
17:42:20 <Alberth> ah that explains the "we" part :p
17:43:05 <andythenorth_> ach, I could learn C++
17:43:34 <andythenorth_> but only to change one line at a time
17:43:41 <andythenorth_> ask me to write a new function and I'm stuffed
17:43:46 <andythenorth_> too much stuff to know about
17:44:24 <Alberth> so instead you learned to speak cbs :)
17:45:01 <Alberth> hmm, why does the compiler always needs to re-compile every file?
17:45:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21059 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt:
17:45:19 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 32 changes by gjannema
17:45:47 <Alberth> we can play the game in frisian shortly, lots of changes there
17:45:53 *** fjb is now known as Guest1260
17:45:56 <Xaroth_> it's not even a proper language :/
17:46:00 *** Xaroth_ is now known as Xaroth
17:46:23 <davis> while we're on it we can add bavarian
17:46:34 <Alberth> Xaroth: it is, acknowledged by the Dutch government
17:46:47 <davis> well .. Alberth , dutch.
17:46:59 <Xaroth> damn and I thought our government was going down, but apparently we're already down
17:47:11 <davis> they also acknowledged the use of pot.
17:47:18 <Xaroth> that's a brilliant move
17:47:22 <davis> which is probably in some sort of connection
17:47:27 <Alberth> Xaroth: there are always deeper downs than you can imagine
17:47:46 <Xaroth> pot usage in countries where there are strict laws, like the US and the UK have a faaar higher drug use rate
17:48:31 <davis> Xaroth i agree , legalizing it in Holland isn't all bad imho
17:48:49 <Xaroth> last time i brought brits to amsterdam they spent half a day in coffee shops
17:48:59 <Xaroth> and the dutchies were like 'right, you've seen the past 12, MOVE ALONG'
17:49:15 <Xaroth> they spent ~100 euros on weed
17:49:21 <Xaroth> smoked it up in ~2-3 days
17:49:35 <davis> well , not entirely sure about the prices over there
17:49:46 <Xaroth> 100 euros of weed is a LOT of weed
17:49:49 <davis> but if you try to buy weed over here , 100 isn't entirely much.
17:50:08 <davis> anyway , praise Dutchland
17:50:20 <davis> especialy Amsterdam , for having 4 times mc donalds in one street
17:50:21 <Xaroth> as finishing touch, god created the dutch
17:50:43 <Xaroth> I couldn't 'live' in amsterdam tho
17:50:55 <davis> I like it , for a weekend every once in a while
17:51:02 <davis> maybe even a week. but not any longer than that
17:51:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r21060 /trunk/src/ (27 files in 5 dirs): -Doc: Improved wording of comments (mostly by __ln__)
17:51:31 <Xaroth> mind, i live 10 miles south of amsterdam, where it's nice and quiet
17:51:52 <Xaroth> where people bitch and moan when somebody is requesting to open a brothel or a coffee shop
17:51:56 <davis> I usualy stay at the sunpark in
17:52:03 <davis> I believe it's Zandvoort
17:52:09 <andythenorth_> Alberth: what would managing the consist mean for a ship or plane?
17:52:11 <davis> and from there it's just like 15 minutes by train to Amsterdam
17:52:49 <Xaroth> I'm on the other side of schiphol from zandvoort :P
17:52:55 <Alberth> pretty simple, you only have an engine :)
17:53:05 <Xaroth> 45 minutes by bus, and around 20 busses going there an hour
17:53:07 <andythenorth_> but it would set refits
17:53:31 <davis> to admit , your "french"/ dutch fries
17:53:35 <davis> are pretty much amazing.
17:53:56 <andythenorth_> Alberth: as I'm seeing this...you wouldn't be able to set an order 'goto depot and switch to consist xyz'
17:54:10 <andythenorth_> that was previously an idea
17:55:03 <Alberth> you seem to be many steps further than me
17:55:59 <andythenorth_> I thought about it a bit previously :)
17:56:03 <andythenorth_> with help from others!
17:56:47 <andythenorth_> to be able to have orders changing consist, it needs to consist != group
17:56:58 <andythenorth_> but consist == group is way easier and way closer to current
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20:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling it's pretty obvious who "Fred" is :p
20:06:37 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, where do you see a Fred?
20:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> here, there, everywhere.
20:11:28 <dihedral> why is this guy all words?
20:12:05 <dihedral> and what does the story have to do with it?
20:12:21 <dihedral> and what does one project have to to in another projects thread if it is totally unrelated?
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20:24:33 <dihedral> i pitty the students ^^
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continue to next day ⏵
