IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-19
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00:40:42 <Keiya> Why does OpenTTD use such a relic of a VCS? >_>
00:44:38 <SmatZ> but you can use hg or git, if you can't stand svn
00:44:59 <SmatZ> imo svn is great for openttd
00:45:04 <SmatZ> there aren't many branches
00:45:10 <SmatZ> and only few developers
00:45:18 <SmatZ> so centralised vcs is fine
00:45:29 <SmatZ> (also, svn revision numbers for the win)
00:45:49 <Keiya> Blugh. Revision numbers are one of the things I hate /most/ about SVN >_>
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02:08:23 <ccfreak2k> SmatZ, I never really got that.
02:08:44 <ccfreak2k> Every person I've talked to that "switched" to hg goes on about how great it is and how anyone using svn is basically braindead.
02:08:57 <ccfreak2k> As if hg was the end-all be-all of version control.
02:19:02 <Keiya> Well, there's also git. That's a reasonable choice too
02:30:46 <xiong> Git is better adapted to free software development. After all, who is in charge? You can't fire volunteers.
02:33:35 <xiong> That said, I don't make the mistake of thinking any tool is right for every job. I have seen mechanics with toolboxes bigger than some cars. It's tempting to see this as an ego thing or evilness of Snap-On. But some guys really fill every drawer and have a use for everything in it.
02:34:36 <xiong> On the gripping hand, if all you have is a cliche, everything looks like a hammer.
03:09:23 * fanioz says good morning to all
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11:21:52 <dihedral> boy it's quiet today ^^
11:29:14 <norbert79> dihedral: Cccccombo breaker!
11:29:39 * norbert79 waited all day long for this punchline
11:29:54 <dihedral> but you failed - as i only broke silence once :-P
11:30:06 <norbert79> but You broke it ;-)
11:30:50 <norbert79> And now? What are you going to do with it?
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11:39:47 <Pulec> are there any pages with majority of usable opengfx addons?
11:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> did you look at grfcrawler, or the ingame download?
11:40:33 <peter1138> there should be a media player thing for wii :s
11:41:09 <Pulec> why on wii? isnt pc better?
11:41:36 <peter1138> cos i have a wii connected to my telly
11:46:35 <peter1138> hmm, something involving the web browser should be doable, heh
11:51:06 <planetmaker> Pulec, depends on the OpenGFX add-ons
11:51:55 <planetmaker> Look for the OpenGFX+ xxx newgrfs
11:52:05 <planetmaker> But... many are still in its infancy
11:52:22 <planetmaker> the airports are nice, they support the climates better than default airports :-)
11:52:30 <planetmaker> And you got rotation for the small one
11:53:39 <planetmaker> Other than that: the ingame content download gives you a lot of add-ons
11:53:55 * planetmaker stops the monologue now ;-)
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13:53:41 <Belugas> peter1138! good day sir
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15:33:07 * dihedral is reminded of 1&1 :-P
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17:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20994 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by frosch
17:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hebrew - 19 changes by rril
17:45:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: irish - 1 changes by tem
17:45:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 19 changes by dlunch, junho2813
17:46:24 <Belugas> mmh... too much stuff on that SD card
17:47:36 <Alberth> turn it over so the stuff falls off
17:55:55 <Belugas> i guess it's time to do abig cleanup
17:59:10 * Lakie wonders if there are any decent ides for linux...
17:59:50 <Alberth> if you like java bloated ones, eclipse
18:00:04 <Lakie> Thanks, I'm finding things like grfcodec are hard to compile on windows but easy on linuix. :/
18:00:21 <peter1138> but vim is the one true way :D
18:00:30 <Alberth> pretty much anything is easy to compile at linux :)
18:00:54 <Lakie> Yes, due to how it stores libraries and such...
18:01:32 <Alberth> Lakie: unix was designed for development use
18:01:47 <Lakie> Ah, I didn't know that,
18:04:05 <Lakie> Slowly trying to hack in some png reading for grfcodec...
18:04:43 <planetmaker> now, that'd probably be appreciated by A LOT :-)
18:16:54 <xiong> It is now 1859 and Shirleysburg has grown out of control. The more service I provide, the more pax wait. All of its neighbors have been reduced, in comparison, to suburbs. I've spent a vast sum building a high-density commuter loop that whips as many pax per day out to just Lebanon as I can. Still, half Shirleysburg's pop is waiting at one of its three stations.
18:18:12 <xiong> I would like to move on, leave this corner to itself awhile, and build up another urban area. But the locals are screaming about bad service. Will I ever reach a saturation point? Or does service merely create demand without limit, in some cases?
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18:34:39 <Alberth> it is not unlimited, but loading passengers is hard due to their numbers
18:34:53 <Alberth> how are the 'screaming'?
18:36:11 <Alberth> if a vehicle comes along regulraly, you get good service rating as far as i know, even if it has 1000+ waiting passengers
18:39:47 <Lakie> ... foo, well it read it then died...
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18:42:03 <andythenorth> Alberth: want to tackle orders?
18:42:13 <andythenorth> I need to learn to code properly anyway :P
18:42:55 <Alberth> I am afraid to even read the discussion :p
18:43:42 <Alberth> is that difficult in some special way?
18:43:52 <andythenorth> depends what the spec is :)
18:44:04 <_Terkhen_> did you reach an agreement?
18:44:10 <_Terkhen_> also hi andythenorth
18:45:20 <andythenorth> I think the problem with 'agreement' is that no-one is in charge :P
18:45:22 <Alberth> oh, I had no trucks in 1934 for grain
18:45:34 <andythenorth> asking users will only produce conflicting desires
18:45:44 <Alberth> _Terkhen_: most likely we did not, but I don't care :)
18:45:53 <andythenorth> I reckon try some patches, see what breaks, ship it unless rubi or others say no :P
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18:46:18 <andythenorth> we need to do what's right, not what users want :D
18:46:30 <_Terkhen_> I'd change my question then... did you reach something that is consistent and feasible?
18:46:33 <andythenorth> in commercial software we have to do it the other way :P
18:46:43 <Alberth> well, having several hierarchies seems to be agreed by several people
18:46:47 <andythenorth> _Terkhen_: I think I have workable suggestions
18:47:01 <andythenorth> I also think my suggestions can be broken into small-ish patches
18:47:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: commercial software needs to keep itself busy :)
18:49:24 <xiong> Alberth, I have 'poor' service ratings at two of three stations. I will try to increase service to these. I'd hoped that by draining off waiting pax at one station, the others would feel better. It's not as though they aren't already well served.
18:50:01 <xiong> I notice that doubling service on a line is non-trivial.
18:50:59 <Alberth> yep, I like such a challenge :p
18:51:47 <xiong> I'm coming to think that good service requires at least two different kinds of train: long and a bit slow; and short and fast. The long ones take away surplus numbers and the fast ones keep the head times short.
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18:52:07 <xiong> Alberth, I have studied that page thoroughly. Translating it into action is tough.
18:52:45 <Alberth> oh, ok. Never tried to get good service by exploiting such knowledge :p
18:52:58 <xiong> I feel that some dodges are just cheating. In my last game, I got pretty good ratings by putting bus and truck stations right across the street from one another.
18:53:27 <xiong> I don't know if you're serious. I am.
18:53:57 <Alberth> such setups do not sound like much fun to me
18:54:38 <Alberth> I am not serious in getting ratings of any kind, or trying to be better than others, my aim is to build nice lines, and to have fun
18:54:41 <xiong> It's reading the Game Mechanics page that suggested the long-slow/short-fast system.
18:55:13 <xiong> If I make sure to have plenty of track around the loop that allows the fast ones to pass, it might even work. We'll see.
18:57:05 <xiong> Meanwhile, freight service is going to hell. I've managed to train from primary industry to town, then from town to secondary -- and return by the same route. But the two industries must ship at different stations, so I've got a ridiculous in-town horse-carriage transfer service. Knowing that this is all totally authentic doesn't make it work better.
18:57:27 <xiong> s/two industries/two classes of industry/
18:59:16 <xiong> Perhaps good station ratings aren't all that important and I'm worrying too much. Early on, I ran into difficulty several times with unhappy towns not allowing me to build.
18:59:23 <Alberth> I don't care about realism either
18:59:50 <xiong> I guess, now that I have money, I can always try other techniques.
19:00:25 <Alberth> I usually then move on to another town, if they don't like me, it is their loss, not mine. After a while I can always try again.
19:01:13 <andythenorth> station rating matters for cargo supplied by industry, but ach, you can make money easy anyway
19:01:29 <andythenorth> and trying to manage *every* station rating is a road to madness :)
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19:15:50 <Alberth> It looks like an implementable approach, I am only not sure whether it goes in the right direction.
19:15:50 <Alberth> I guess I need to make up my mind about that :p
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19:28:37 <xiong> I'm starting to think mixed consists are trouble here. I'm working a farm, which produces livestock and accepts farm supplies. This can train into town where there is a forge ready to supply the farm supplies. But the livestock must transfer to get to the stockyard. If I put both a flatcar for the supplies and cars for the livestock on the same train, how do I give the orders?
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19:31:14 <xiong> If I set town to unload-transfer-no-loading then I don't pick up the farm supplies. If I set it to the default, the livestock aren't accepted and aren't picked up by the shuttle that should take them onward to their doom.
19:31:41 <Alberth> I would not know. You 'could' do a refit as part of the orders (I have never done that either)
19:32:08 <xiong> If I set town to unload-transfer-full-load then I think the train would pick up the same livestock it just unloaded. There's a warning about that in the wiki.
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19:33:24 <xiong> I don't know about refitting in orders. Doesn't sound good, no offense.
19:34:22 <xiong> I think it's probably just more rational not to mix the consist. But farm and engineering supplies aren't moved in great quantities, so one is led to very short trains for these.
19:34:37 <Alberth> you can also use trucks
19:35:10 <Alberth> I have yet to reach the point where I actually produce such supplies first :)
19:35:13 <xiong> In 1859, it's horse-drawn wagons and they're very slow indeed. Not so bad for the in-town transfers but over the road, meh.
19:35:48 <Alberth> which RV set do you use?
19:36:17 <Alberth> I have a game in 1934, and I only have a mail truck with the default RVs
19:37:25 <xiong> It's just starting to offer me crappy steam road vehicles. The horses are better.
19:37:47 <Alberth> 1859 sounds awfully early :)
19:38:29 <Alberth> I started at 1920 with UKRS2 for the first time.
19:38:56 <Alberth> xiong: no thank you, I am going to bed in less than an hour
19:40:17 <xiong> In prototype, each cargo has a manifest and the road knows exactly where to pick it up and where to put it down.
19:41:01 <xiong> I'd ask for that kind of fine-grained control if it weren't so difficult, in practice, to manage. Real roads have guys who spend their whole lives doing this kind of paperwork.
19:42:49 <Alberth> yeah, it woild lead to an awful amount of micro managing
19:43:29 <xiong> As if this weren't the micro-managing game of all time!
19:47:21 <xiong> The FIRS docs are kinda incomplete, eh? Does anyone know what the 'late delivery' time is for engineering and farm supplies?
19:47:42 <xiong> They're not perishable so I'd think they'd be okay for awhile on the road.
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19:52:00 <LordAro> my ubuntu 10.10 failed :(
19:52:17 <LordAro> won't even boot properly now :(
19:52:42 <planetmaker> I suggest to complain to the ubuntu channel about that
19:53:10 <Rubidium> planetmaker: no, it's good info. Mean we don't need to support Ubuntu 10.10
19:53:25 <LordAro> i'm making a post on the ubuntu forums right now :)
19:56:31 <andythenorth> xiong: 'code is documentation' :D
19:56:44 <andythenorth> I don't know what it means, I didn't write the cargos part of FIRS
19:57:23 <planetmaker> xiong: also... ingame there are graphs for the cargo profits as function of time and distance or so
19:57:52 <andythenorth> Alberth: discuss orders before sleep?
19:57:56 * planetmaker always gets a knot in the brain when walking through the cargo delivery formula
19:58:37 <Alberth> andythenorth: I'd rather not do that now
19:59:44 <Alberth> use a more sane distribution instead?
20:00:29 * LordAro thinks that he should stop spamming the irc with off topic...
20:00:39 * Alberth ponders to suggest OpenBSD, but does not do that :p
20:00:48 <Alberth> very little is off-topic here :)
20:00:55 <Rubidium> Debian on s390 works pretty nicely
20:01:10 <Rubidium> also it won't have problems with the splash screen
20:04:06 <LordAro> Alberth: bit late now, my computer won't boot properly :)
20:04:53 <Alberth> not even a floppy-disk?
20:05:32 <Alberth> I am not even sure you can boot OpenBSD in another way :)
20:05:38 <LordAro> ok, perhaps boot isn't the best word to use, ubuntu won't load! (see link above)
20:06:14 <Alberth> boot the live cd, and re-install from scratch sounds like the best solution.
20:06:57 <Alberth> (at least I think ubuntu has such a cd)
20:07:22 <Rubidium> step #1: boot without the fracking splash screen so you can actually see where it hangs
20:07:45 <Alberth> you did put your user data in a separate partition, right?
20:08:10 <Rubidium> andythenorth: but that doesn't release every 6 months
20:08:35 <andythenorth> means all my apps don't break all the time :P
20:08:46 * andythenorth is scared of snow leopard upgrade
20:08:51 <andythenorth> means OTTD might not compile
20:09:02 <andythenorth> OTTD is the main reason I didn't upgrade yet
20:09:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: works here
20:09:12 <andythenorth> maybe I'll upgrade
20:09:16 <planetmaker> I use snow leopard basically since it's out
20:09:26 <planetmaker> (but I kept my old HDD just in case ;-) )
20:09:45 <planetmaker> i.e. I didn't upgrade but newly installed
20:10:01 <Rubidium> actually, seems like Mac OS X is on a 2 year release cycle since 10.2
20:10:32 <andythenorth> jobs is all about iPhone now
20:10:40 <andythenorth> the mac is very much taking a back seat
20:11:51 <planetmaker> I don't really think. But they constantly need something new in the media
20:11:58 <Rubidium> ah well, that at least gives you a phone which you can use for everything Steve's allows you to do
20:12:08 <andythenorth> apart from phoning
20:12:20 <LordAro> Alberth: don't wanna do that :p
20:12:24 * andythenorth does some useful stuff instead
20:12:35 <Rubidium> has there been an announcement for 10.7?
20:12:41 <LordAro> Rubidium: err...how? (without splash screen)
20:12:44 <andythenorth> we should remember mb is a nice helpful guy
20:13:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I always remember that
20:13:23 <Rubidium> LordAro: how should I know that? I use an operating system that lacks that, and I'm happy for that
20:13:42 <Rubidium> although... looking at Ubuntu in VB, it's not very talkative at all
20:13:57 <Rubidium> so you probably need to enable more stuff to get useful output
20:13:58 <planetmaker> especially for example today where I read his German posting where he's talking 'nicely' about the usefulness of <whatever> supplies in newgrfs
20:14:37 <planetmaker> in the typical way in side-remarks
20:14:59 <planetmaker> (and in the same posting claiming toursist and passengers making perfect sense)
20:16:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: how can a 'STEEL mill' produce mere 'metal'? :p
20:16:46 <Rubidium> because the stole the rest
20:16:49 <andythenorth> Alberth: it's magic
20:16:51 <planetmaker> unspeakably stupid
20:17:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: I was afraid of that, I was assuming it would produce steel, also due to its current graphics :(
20:18:10 <Alberth> on the other hand, now it is useful for the metal foundry :)
20:18:25 <andythenorth> if you want to expand cargos to say...64...you can have steel back :P
20:18:33 <andythenorth> and also maybe 6 input and 4 output?
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20:19:41 <Alberth> the latter would be more interesting, I think, although 6 is a lot
20:20:25 <Rubidium> why make an artificial limitation?
20:20:48 <Rubidium> (just like the ~700 million pseudosprite limitation per NewGRF)
20:20:58 <andythenorth> unlimited cargos?
20:21:14 <andythenorth> then I can make one industry that takes in 'stuff' and produces all possible other cargos
20:21:19 <andythenorth> and one for vice versa
20:22:01 <Alberth> andythenorth: no, we need that as container cargo in ships already :)
20:22:19 <andythenorth> anyway, reworking orders would be good
20:22:27 <andythenorth> if we rework orders, we can fix groups
20:22:34 <andythenorth> which means we can tackle consists
20:22:58 <andythenorth> which means (finally) we can make proper multi-vehicle RVs with rv-wagons
20:23:06 <Alberth> I'd rather call it 'experimenting with orders' :)
20:23:10 <Yexo> Lakie: currently ttdpatch assumes the parameter for industry var 62 and 63 has signed x,y offset, which is inconsistent with var 60 and 61 which use unsigned offsets. The signedness for var 62/63 is currently not documented at all. Any change of changing it to unsigned x,y offset?
20:23:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth: seeing your issue tracker of FIRS: I treat scrap metal as bulk ;-)
20:23:36 <Yexo> if not, I'll document that it's signed for var 62/63 and make sure openttd behaves the same
20:23:37 <andythenorth> the only reason I'm even trying to solve orders stuff is that I want 'proper' RVs
20:24:06 <Lakie> objects relative ones should be signed
20:25:01 <Yexo> I know, for objects it makes sense, but for industries it's relative to the north tile, so imo unsigned makes more sense there (and var 60/61 already use unsigned offsets)
20:25:43 <Lakie> Hmm... would it break any industry compatiblity (not that it matters since most industry grfs have long since ditched ttdp support completely)
20:26:58 <Yexo> only if any industry set checks var 62 with a negative x or y offset (checking var 63 with a negative offset makes no sense at all)
20:27:42 * Lakie stabs gimp inserting custom chunks into pngs
20:28:40 <Rubidium> having trouble reading them with a patched version of the tool we "spoke" about not long (in day-timescale) ago?
20:29:05 <Lakie> Just a little though its more small scale
20:29:13 <Lakie> ie. seperate until it work
20:29:26 <Lakie> Then its mostly c/p + adjust.
20:29:52 <Lakie> Had to alter some checks around the inputs in the code though
20:30:41 <andythenorth> I can't see FIRS using var 62 anywhere
20:30:49 <Lakie> Well, it read a the nml image nicely...
20:31:08 <andythenorth> tile var 60 that is
20:31:17 <Yexo> var 60 is documented to have unsigned x and y offsets, but in openttd they're actually signed offsets currently
20:31:25 <Lakie> But it is fairly close, Rubidium, probably take a while to make it 'to standards' though.
20:31:39 <Yexo> I was talking about industry var 60, not tile var 60
20:32:02 <Lakie> Well, the place you pointed me too doesn't look like any offsets.
20:32:23 <Yexo> it's the function stub which calls the code for industry tile var 60 directly
20:32:36 <Yexo> industry tile var 60 is actually the same, but with signed offsets
20:33:03 <Lakie> getindustrylayoutnumber ?
20:33:26 <Yexo> argh :(, line 4753, not 4573
20:33:50 <Lakie> Fair enough, lookd a little odd.
20:34:03 <andythenorth> all the people who might be interested in orders seem to have left :[
20:35:37 <Lakie> Ah yeah, movsx and not movzx
20:35:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's a big issue. It needs time to sind and think. And then re-discuss it again
20:36:24 <planetmaker> hm... s/issue/task or endeavour/
20:36:34 <andythenorth> time to release HEQS 0.8.0?
20:36:50 <Lakie> I presume just changing the moves from keeping the sign to not, would be sufficient Yexo?
20:37:13 <Yexo> Lakie: I have no idea, I don't understand most of the code there
20:37:20 <planetmaker> question mostly is: will it break? :-)
20:37:34 <Yexo> just enough to be able to identify it calls the industry tile var and parses the parameter in there, so it's also signed
20:38:06 <Lakie> Ok, well its the movsx which makes it signed,
20:38:23 <Lakie> extends bit 7 if set, iirc
20:38:29 <Lakie> thus keeping it negitive
20:38:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20995 /branches/1.0/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
20:38:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
20:38:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: When removing a rail station, do not leave track under non-station tiles (r20990)
20:38:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Ignore the variable for Action7/9 condition type 0x0D and 0x0E as documented (r20979)
20:38:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Helicopters fired a bit too late [FS#4155] (r20910)
20:39:20 <Yexo> Lakie: but for industry tile var 60 the parameter should remain signed
20:39:45 <Yexo> so it probably needs copying the parameter parse code to the industry var code and moving the label where it jumps in
20:40:00 <Lakie> I suppose I could move the 'join' and clone the code changing it to signed
20:42:34 <Yexo> if you agree with the change, that'd be nice
20:43:05 <Lakie> Well, it can be adjusted
20:43:49 <Lakie> I would likely check that things like ecs and mb's don't break first though.
20:45:19 <Lakie> Sorry, I just don't want to change something and get yelled at for it. :x
20:46:14 <Belugas> go ahead, Lakie, Dalestan is not ther
20:47:11 <Lakie> I'm not sure if thats a good thing or a loss to the community, Belugas.
20:47:52 <Belugas> ha...that, i'm not making any statement on that matter :)
20:48:11 <Belugas> in fact, he (wa)'s a bit like Tron
20:48:29 <Belugas> hate him as you wish, but did he know his stuff...
20:49:16 <Yexo> ecs only uses it with offsets between 0 and 4, so it doesn't break
20:49:23 * Lakie wonders if his code is having issues from old code moving the file pointer.
20:50:13 <Lakie> Don't really remember Tron.
20:50:27 <Lakie> Ok, I'll start cloning code, Yexo
20:50:46 <Yexo> did mb write an industry grf? if so, which one?
20:50:59 <Lakie> I think he wrote his own, iirc...
20:51:12 <Lakie> But I can't remember where you'd find it
20:52:34 <Yexo> alpine doesn't break either
20:53:35 <Lakie> Can't imagine anyone used over 7 tiles length
20:54:24 <Yexo> newcargo causes glitches with the stadium but otherwise doesn't break wrt to the industry code
20:54:57 <planetmaker> alpine can't be used with OpenGFX :-(
20:55:50 <Rubidium> and he can't detect that... oh, he'll go mad one day
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20:56:35 <Lakie> Ah, thats why my code is having fits, some code elsewhere is 'updating' my file handle
21:01:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20996 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Change: [NewGRF] the X and Y offsets in the parameter for industry vars 60,61,62,63 are unsigned instead of signed
21:10:53 <Lakie> Unfortunetly I know how to make sure I haven't broken the old code. :x
21:48:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r20997 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix: Size of sort buttons for order and vehicle list gui could be too small
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22:08:54 <xiong> What is it with these junky 1860's steam road vehicles? They cost more to buy and operate, carry about the same cargo or less, are less reliable, and slower than a 4-horse carriage.
22:09:11 <xiong> Do they have any merit at all?
22:10:08 <__ln__> If i made a Mac-specific patch which Bjarni would not approve of, would that get accepted (for the same reason)?
22:10:23 <xiong> I think this is an elaborate joke. It may even be historically realistic. There have certainly been enough projectors with ill-designed products.
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22:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: you should probably discuss that at the eGRVTS topic in the forums
22:35:01 <xiong> It's not a significant issue, I think; merely another oddity.
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22:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> ... anyone know a livecd kind of virus scanner?
22:54:13 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or liveusbstick... ;)
22:56:25 <__ln__> i think f-secure has something like that...
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