IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-08-06
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00:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> if you make river ships have brige height 1, sea ships bridge height 2, and supertankers bridge height 3, or something...
00:00:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the pathfinder must be taught to obey these values
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05:41:13 <__ln__> good morning, openttdnam!
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07:51:36 <Zuu> WT3 claims that a change I made yesterday was made "9 months ago". (STR_DEPOT_TRAIN_LIST_TOOLTIP in swedish translation)
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08:07:48 <Celestar> where did the airport FTA definition go?
08:08:55 <frosch123> src/table/airport_movement.h
08:09:31 <frosch123> but who cares about that?
08:09:54 <frosch123> we are heading for newgrf state machines :)
08:11:01 <dihedral> Celestar: you've been gone too long ^^
08:11:15 <Celestar> we've been moving to newgrf state machines for .. .ages
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08:13:10 <Celestar> dihedral: I have been gone for long
08:13:14 <Celestar> so trying to catch up :P
08:14:01 <Celestar> also trying to find the FTA images
08:15:21 <peter1138> should i *always* do a select before a recv?
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08:19:36 <Celestar> do we have DV's FTA images somewhere_
08:20:12 <frosch123> never heard of them, but the fta have been changes since then
08:21:56 <Zuu> Celestar: Yexo has some work going on on NewGRF (air)ports. There is a branch for it.
08:22:24 <Celestar> still looking for those images
08:23:13 <Celestar> I don|t wanna draw them again
08:28:28 <Rubidium> Celestar: I do have an URI where they used to be, does that help you?
08:33:15 <peter1138> i remember them, but i don't know where they live
08:34:59 <peter1138> dynamic dns service?
08:37:09 <Rubidium> yeah, and URI from like 6 years ago
08:40:20 <Rubidium> though, isn't it easier to recreate those images from the data?
08:47:37 <Celestar> better would be the other way round.
08:47:45 <Celestar> and it makes an FTA for you :D
09:05:05 <Alberth> using supervisor control synthesis, creating a safe state space is doable. The trouble is folding that state space into a newgrf in a compact form, I think
09:05:23 <Alberth> alternatively, a way to check correctness of the FTA would be very useful too
09:06:17 <Alberth> I was thinking verification, eg with a model checker
09:06:38 <Celestar> let me first read the current stuff :)
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10:12:42 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a "modular airports minigame", maybe that can be adapted to export state machines?
10:20:31 <Alberth> I proposed that already to the author, so far he does not seem to have done that
10:21:33 <Alberth> iirc I read about a corner case that did not work properly, but I have forgotten the details
10:21:47 <Zuu> How long time ago did you propose it? For long time NewGRF airports has just been seen as a distant dream that would never become true. Perhaps the situation is a bit different now which could spark more motivation in him?
10:22:48 <Alberth> a long time ago, in the time that the branch by richk still existed.
10:23:10 <dihedral> oh no, not him again ^^
10:23:51 <Alberth> he mentioned it later in one of his posts, at the time that newgrf airports became alive again, but that is all I have seen of it.
10:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> is the spec for state machines finalized meanwhile? last information i had was that it was probably changed again. but that was a few months ago
10:28:06 <Alberth> I don't even know precisely what was added to trunk yesterday :p
10:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure, but i have seen "rotation" and "preview"
10:28:44 <frosch123> i guess there is pretty much everything in trunk now, except the statemachine
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10:29:09 <frosch123> you should be able to define custom layouts, custom graphics, and rotations for the default airports now
10:29:12 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing about newgrf-defined statemachines
10:29:48 <frosch123> with "custom graphics" i mean additional layouts of course, not a single replacement :)
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10:48:15 <Hedva> Hi, is there also an complete install of OpenTTD32bpp?
10:48:50 <Alberth> there is not even a complete 32bpp set, I think
10:49:28 <peter1138> it's only been, how many years?
10:49:33 <Hedva> I tried for days to get it work but without success
10:50:01 <Alberth> well, if you re-do the same sprites over and over again.... :)
10:51:14 <peter1138> and all that faff with using 3d modelling and creating larger sprites
10:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause> dear cat. you are standing in front of my monitor.
10:51:53 <Alberth> she needs your attention :)
10:52:37 <Eddi|zuHause> they usually try to avoid stepping on the keyboard :)
10:54:47 <pw-> is there an easy way to upgrade from electric trains to levs?
10:55:18 <pw-> i ended up sending all the trains to the depot, building new depots for the levs, upgrading the track, then manually reassigning the orders
10:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "manual" way and an "around three corners" way
10:55:22 <pw-> is that pretty much the only way to do it?
10:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's always more than one way to do something ;)
10:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> first: you can copy/share the orders after buying the new train, before selling the old train
10:57:26 <pw-> the one click order reassigning is nice
10:57:46 <Eddi|zuHause> second: you can have one train per depot. sell the train, upgrade the depot [without closing the window] and buy the new train, it keeps the order
10:57:51 <pw-> but still, i had 10 trains, and it seems to be unnecessarily complicated =(
10:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> third: you can get a newgrf with a train that runs on both electric and maglev, and autoreplace to that, then upgrade the tracks, and autoreplace again to the proper maglev train
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10:59:50 <Alberth> alternatively, build new lev tracks next to the existing tracks
11:00:26 <Ammler> pw-: that is actually, "how" it should be done
11:01:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and ultimately: get a sensible newgrf that discourages this conversion entirely...
11:03:11 <pw-> is it silly of me to try to keep true to the original game
11:03:16 <pw-> which i've never even played
11:03:30 <Ammler> it was never possible there
11:04:29 <pw-> also, is there a wiki anywhere for the city builder mod?
11:04:32 <Ammler> iirc, you weren't even able to convert tracks
11:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i recently opened one of my original TT games, it was in the midst of converting to monorail...
11:08:54 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause / frosch123: indeed nearly everything but newgrf statemachines is in trunk now
11:09:07 <Yexo> but I'm still not sure about the final spec for the statemachines
11:10:13 <Celestar> wtf was the 255 as target right away?
11:11:01 <frosch123> Yexo: what are the alternatives?
11:12:04 <Yexo> frosch123: not really big differences, but the last spec (written mostly by you I believe) specified for example "change the state and run the callback again"
11:12:38 <Yexo> this makes it hard for the newgrf, it might be easier to "store the new state, run the callback again and change the state after the callback is completely done"
11:12:44 * frosch123 cannot remember being involved in that process
11:14:02 <frosch123> hehe, that documents originates when richk was still around sometimes :)
11:14:51 <frosch123> so the decision is basically about which results the callback shall get, and whether it is run multiple times?
11:15:14 <frosch123> hmm, btw. what is the status of oilrig-like industries?
11:15:25 <Yexo> and an alternative I thought of (but not sure if that's a good idea): callback is only run once and can store multiple results in the 100+ params
11:15:43 <Yexo> postponed still after the airport statemachines are in trunk
11:15:54 <Celestar> international airport in graphviz looks ugly :P
11:17:38 <Alberth> you have nice looking airports at all?
11:17:51 <Alberth> graphviz is not famous for its nice layouts :)
11:21:23 <Celestar> you get a better tool?
11:21:45 <Alberth> other than manual layout, no :(
11:24:32 <Celestar> still trying to give 255s a meaningful edge name
12:12:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20385 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move updating of buttons in the fund-industry window to a method.
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12:19:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20386 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix: Initialize fund-industry buttons when opening window.
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12:23:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20387 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4000]: Allow the industry-chain button for non-fundable industries, and disallow for the 'many random industries'.
12:24:20 <frosch123> Zuu: better read the other text :)
12:27:51 <Zuu> It looks like it has some kind of node-graph for movement which sounds more reasonable. Than requesting airport grfs to deal with acceleration math, movement etc.
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12:30:33 <MibbitPee> OpenTTD? Sawyer's game pushed to Debian?
12:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there's still an open question how it could be extended to handle articulated vehicles
12:33:07 <Alberth> Zuu: current implementation also has nodes where the aircraft moves towards
12:45:40 <MibbitPee> would OTTD run under Puppy Linux?
12:59:46 <dihedral> MibbitPee: did you try? did you have a look at OpenTTD's download page? did you find the download linux-generic?
13:05:13 <Rubidium> oh noes... you did reply to the troll again
13:06:01 * dihedral stands in the corner
13:06:12 * dihedral waers the donky-ears
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13:16:46 <Zuu> Unelss OpenTTD can by inspection count the number of aircrafts in holding, it would be usefull to have mandatory callback so the grf can pass this information to OpenTTD when AIs need it.
13:19:13 <Zuu> Usually the number of aircrafts in holding + non-stopped in hangars is useful to tell if the airport can handle more traffic or not.
13:21:04 <dihedral> then that information should also be made available to clients
13:21:22 <dihedral> i.e. airport capacity in %
13:22:06 <frosch123> you could get number of aircrafts in hangar/loading/on floor/in air
13:23:10 <frosch123> on floor might also be distinguishable in moving and waiting
13:32:29 <blathijs> planetmaker: Is OpenMSX GPLv2 or v2+ ?
13:32:59 <Zuu> dihedral: Calculating the capacity usage in % (with 100 as max) in a generic way is probably a non-drivial task.
13:33:11 <Alberth> blathijs: pm is not around, I think
13:33:13 <blathijs> The readme says v2 in the first section, v2+ in the last section, but the actual license text does not include the "or at your option, any later version" part
13:33:22 <blathijs> planetmaker: The readme says v2 in the first section, v2+ in the last section, but the actual license text does not include the "or at your option, any later version" part
13:33:32 <blathijs> Alberth: Then I hope he reads back his highlights :-)
13:33:46 <Rubidium> blathijs: where is the v2+ bit exactly?
13:35:11 <Rubidium> enough bits say v2 that v2 and later is not likely
13:35:42 <Ammler> you do touch the binaries backwards after building on the CF?
13:35:57 <Yexo> After much spirited discussion, it has been decided that the MIDI files should be released under both the Creative Commons Sampling Plus 1.0 license and the GPL v.2 license. This is to ensure that all music is not only covered under the proper music license, but can also be included for distribution with other software bundles. <- 2nd postm music replacement topic on the forums
13:35:58 <blathijs> Rubidium: I don't really care either way, but he should clarify it :-)
13:36:25 <Rubidium> Yexo: CCSP has been dumped recently
13:37:14 <Ammler> is v2+ also not debian compatible?
13:37:16 <Rubidium> Ammler: yes, the tarballs and such are touched to a specific time
13:37:17 <blathijs> I'll drop pm an email
13:37:25 <Yexo> yes, you can dump a license, but not add the + part of gpl v2+ without consulting all contributors first
13:37:52 <Rubidium> Yexo: that's why I think it's a typo of some sorts
13:38:16 <Yexo> I agree, it was to support your point :)
13:38:23 <Yexo> but I wasn't clear enough I think
13:38:31 <Ammler> v2+ is still v2 compatible, so why should that be a problem?
13:38:45 <Rubidium> Ammler: no, it isn't... that's the point
13:38:50 <Yexo> you can release a modified version of v2+ as v3, but with v2 that is not allowed
13:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: there is no problem, only that it isn't clearly stated
13:38:54 <Rubidium> v2+ is a superset of v2
13:39:16 <Yexo> you can rerelease a v2+ project as v2 project though, unless I'm very mistaken
13:39:26 <Ammler> so you can't have software compatible with gpl 2 _and_ 3?
13:39:54 <Yexo> if project A is v2 (no +) and project B is v3, you can't combine them
13:40:01 <Yexo> at least not without relicensing either one of them first
13:40:21 <Ammler> but you can compbine v2 with v2+ and v3 with v2+?
13:40:27 <Yexo> if project A would be v2+ you could combine A and B in project C as long as C is v3
13:40:37 <Yexo> you can combine v2 and v2+ to v2 (not to v2+)
13:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> if project A is v2only, project B is v3only, then you can create library C as v2+ to include it in either program
13:41:09 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: no, than you are distributing A as v2+, which is not v2only
13:41:37 <Yexo> I get what you're saying now
13:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: you can "downgrade" v2+ to v2only for the A release
13:41:53 <Yexo> yes, I understand, you're right
13:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can "upgrade" v2+ to v3 for the B release
13:42:20 <Ammler> so v2+ is the license you should use for new projects
13:42:36 <Yexo> that depends on if you like v3 or not
13:42:39 <blathijs> Some people dislike v3
13:43:12 <Rubidium> I filed a bug report for OpenMSX about the issue
13:43:14 <Yexo> and others argue that you should use v3 (or v3+) because it's a lot better
13:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> and again others argue that you should use CDDL [is that the name?]
13:44:47 <Ammler> or why do some people dislike it?
13:46:02 <Zuu> A problem with v2+ is that they could create v4 or v5 or v99 with pretty much any content you have no control over.
13:47:00 <Zuu> Eg. v4 could maybe allow users to hold you viable for damages that the software has caused.
13:47:09 <blathijs> The best way to prevent all that kind of crap is to just choose a license that is liberal enough to allow relicensing, so there is no need to contact all your contributors for that :-)
13:47:30 <blathijs> Zuu: In that case you're still not obliged to use it
13:47:53 <blathijs> Zuu: Someone else could redistribute under v4, if they want to be viable for damages, of course
13:48:11 <ZR13> Hi my OTTD will after some time change all the colours in negative.
13:48:31 <blathijs> The fact that a recipient is allowed to redistribute under v2+, does not mean the distributor is obliged to accept the terms of v2+
13:48:38 <Zuu> hmm, so v2+ means that the software itself always is licensed under v2, but someone else may choose any >= 2 license to re-license it?
13:49:12 <ZR13> Sorry I forgot to mention
13:49:19 <Rubidium> ZR13: then it's likely an application "breaking" OpenTTD's full screen
13:49:31 <Ammler> yes, that is THE reason against the "+"
13:49:47 <Ammler> so you should better license it like GPL v2+3 or v2 only
13:50:00 <Yexo> ZR13: do you have some kind of dynamic windows background? a photo slideshow or something like that?
13:50:36 <blathijs> Zuu: The exact wording is (usually): you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
13:50:52 <Ammler> Rubidium: removing the "+" should be safe then
13:51:00 <Zuu> hmm, yes that sounds familar.
13:51:04 <ZR13> So another aplication I opened? Yes that is it! I have slideshow for background. That is probably it.
13:51:31 <ZR13> So I must turn it of before a game. Too bad.
13:51:32 <Rubidium> ZR13: yes, that reminds me that someone else mentioned that messing the colours
13:51:46 <Rubidium> with the background slideshow "feautre"
13:52:08 <Rubidium> blathijs: too bad openmsx likely won't make it into squeeze
13:52:32 <Zuu> So while v4 can not be used to hold you viable, it could perhaps be modfied so that the source code do no longer need to be released (even on request).
13:52:53 <blathijs> Rubidium: There's no real freeze yet, AFAIK?
13:53:09 <blathijs> Zuu: Yup, that's possible, though unlikely
13:53:20 <Zuu> So that you could take any v2+ OSS software and turn it into a closed source program if Stallman and his friends decide to allow that. :-)
13:53:20 <blathijs> Rubidium: Hmm, missed that
13:53:22 <Rubidium> blathijs: like 12 minutes ago
13:53:24 <ZR13> Ok thanks a lot guys! You really helped me a lot! I'll test it out.
13:53:53 <Rubidium> blathijs: but then, you've not been watching the Debconf "bits from the release team" presentation that just ended
13:53:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> ZR13: yes, that reminds me that someone else mentioned that messing the colours <-- should probably be listed in knownbugs.txt
13:54:10 <blathijs> Zuu: That would be particularly cruel. All those GPL zealots going through all that trouble to conform to the GPL, when it turns out they could have used a BSD license all the time :-p
13:54:12 * Rubidium assigns Eddi|zuHause to writing that part
13:54:18 <blathijs> Rubidium: Nope, I haven't
13:54:48 <Ammler> blathijs: you need clarification for the msx license now, pm is away a bit....
13:55:08 <blathijs> Ammler: No, it just needs to happen sometime
13:55:25 <blathijs> I was collecting a bit of data for my ITP
13:56:03 <Ammler> then I won't "fix" it myself
13:58:53 <Rubidium> blathijs: although you could've seen it coming this morning if you follow debian-release
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14:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ZR13: can you try if this is fixed when using a 32bpp blitter? [see "openttd -h" for correct parameters]
14:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> for example "openttd -b32bpp-optimized" or "openttd -b32bpp-anim"
14:04:27 <blathijs> Rubidium: I don't, only dda :-)
14:04:35 <blathijs> Rubidium: I should have hurried openmsx, then :-p
14:04:56 <Rubidium> I think we can still get it into squeeze with a good story
14:07:41 <Rubidium> "It is only a data package with music which was previously released under CCSP, but now GPL-v2. The music enhance the experience of OpenTTD and there is almost no chance of something going wrong; the package has been tested in many other distributions already. The only change to OpenTTD's packaging would be recommending openmsx." would probably be a good start
14:08:11 <Rubidium> and mentioning the ITP (ofcourse)
14:10:36 <Rubidium> blathijs: ^ and best do it before 1.0.4, but that's probably only late september/early october
14:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/knoqn-bugs-screen-corruption.diff <-- suggestions? the c) part is only guessed currently, needs confirmation
14:12:16 <blathijs> Rubidium: Yeah, a good story would help. Let's first get it into unstable, though
14:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/known-bugs-screen-corruption.diff
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14:18:01 <Ammler> what does "in Squeeze" mean? is it on the dist dvd?
14:19:03 <Rubidium> Ammler: that it is part of the Squeeze (= next Debian major stable) release
14:19:27 <Rubidium> i.e. that it can be installed from the repository with the upcoming Debian stable
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14:20:05 <Ammler> so just a "special" trust level
14:20:27 <Ammler> I mean, people can always use some 3rd-party repos, I assume
14:21:06 <dihedral> how would you feel if that were the same case for opensuse?
14:21:09 <Rubidium> depends on your point of view, but yes... it would be in the official repository
14:21:18 <Ammler> dihedral: there is no openttd in suse
14:21:26 <Ammler> only with additional repos
14:21:53 <dihedral> ah - that explains the comment then :-P
14:22:04 <Rubidium> Ammler: so I can't install (open)suse and then install without changing configuration files or selecting some third party repositories?
14:22:15 <Ammler> in suse, that is oneclick
14:22:18 <Rubidium> (install OpenTTD ofcourse)
14:22:36 <Rubidium> Ammler: and how do security updates work with oneclick?
14:22:49 <Ammler> they do also install the repos
14:23:14 <Rubidium> so if I click on such a link a whole repository is added?
14:23:32 <Ammler> well, that is a kind of official game repo
14:24:52 <Ammler> but the updates are only upstream updates
14:25:08 <Rubidium> so no security "support"
14:25:22 <Ammler> depends on the maintainer
14:25:37 <Rubidium> so no organised security support then :)
14:25:59 <Ammler> as that isn't in the official repo
14:26:24 <Rubidium> and what version is on that gamestore thing?
14:26:51 <Rubidium> and how could a mere mortal like me figure that out?
14:27:09 <Rubidium> besides obviously installing the suse and the package
14:27:14 <Ammler> else the updates would take longer
14:31:16 <Ammler> if you (upstream) has a new release, I branch that package, update it and submit a request to replace it...
14:31:53 <dihedral> simple and obvious :-P
14:32:29 <Ammler> I guess, the description needs a update too
14:32:30 <Rubidium> so obvious that the previous release added icu, instead of 0.7.0 :)
14:33:01 <Ammler> yeah, the 1.0.0 release wasn't even working
14:33:04 <Rubidium> and still packaging those 0.4.x/0.5.0 scenarios... lol!
14:33:56 <Rubidium> and a lovely 19 MiB data package that needs to be redone everytime one of [OpenTTD, OpenGFX, OpenSFX, OpenMSX] is updated :)
14:34:18 <Ammler> nah, "we" just update with openttd :-)
14:34:25 <Rubidium> Ammler: will anybody really miss them?
14:34:42 <Ammler> I have no clue, that wasn't added by me
14:35:47 <Ammler> IMO, adding the basesets binary directly was a good idea
14:35:53 <Ammler> I wasn't aware, it is alowed
14:39:29 <Rubidium> yup, people actively updating OpenTTD have already waste 30 MiB of bandwidth :)
14:41:05 <Ammler> I guess, you need to do it that way, the alternative is own package, but then you have to build it from source maybe
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14:41:44 <Alberth> you could have a openttd-data package, I guess
14:42:18 <blathijs> You could have a look at how Debian does it :-)
14:44:08 <Ammler> (or rather did, now I just update that package)
14:46:35 <Rubidium> Ammler: why is that needed in that case and not in this case?
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14:47:00 <Ammler> Rubidium: as I asked, they said, you need to build from source
14:47:14 <Ammler> so I made all packages grfcodec/renum etc.
14:47:52 <Ammler> but then as you released 1.0.0, I saw they made it that way, that is just curious
14:48:08 <Ammler> and since then the updates are by me
14:48:44 <Rubidium> ArchLinux has the "policy" to not add grfcodec/renum and just repackage the precompiled binaries
14:49:34 <Rubidium> and "even" Gentoo builds the packages from source
14:49:34 <Ammler> I even have supported acient suse 9 with gcc33
14:51:02 <Ammler> If I would ask them nicely, I could change that, but well
14:56:20 <Rubidium> is the + by any chance close the the . on German keyboards?
14:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> . is in the lowest row: NM,.-[Shift]
14:58:41 <Eddi|zuHause> + is in the upper row: OPÜ+[Enter]
14:59:23 <Ammler> and completely on the other side on de_CH
14:59:56 <Rubidium> is the colon close to the +?
15:01:29 <Rubidium> almost all sentences end with a . or : and one ends with a + which is not close to either
15:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i tend to hit # when hitting [enter], maybe he hit +?
15:03:27 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a context for this?
15:03:51 <Rubidium> the GPLv2+ issue of OpenMSX we talked about earlier
15:04:03 <Rubidium> I'm wondering where the + comes from
15:04:12 <Ammler> pm used that on other projects too
15:04:22 <Rubidium> though now I'm seeing it in 0.1.0 as well
15:05:38 <Rubidium> which would mean it's not likely a typo
15:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's a copy-pasto
15:07:12 <guru3> time to play some transport tycoon i think
15:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> how dare you! :)
15:08:26 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what's wrong with him playing that game?
15:08:42 <guru3> much harder to find a server than i remember -_-
15:08:48 <Rubidium> ofcourse he will be flamed if he plays anything else than Transport Tycoon
15:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: on-topic talk?
15:09:45 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: is talking about Windows 3.11 in a Windows 7 channels "on-topic"?
15:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: is saying "Windows 3" when you actually mean "Windows 7" in a "Windows 7" channel "on-topic"?
15:11:10 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that person should be flamed, as should guru3
15:16:40 <Rubidium> you say you're going to do X and then you just do something (completely) different
15:17:39 <guru3> i felt like writing transport tycoon instead of openttd
15:31:45 <Xaroth> be lazy, call it ottd.
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15:40:38 <lc0293468> hi, why should i connect busstations via strg?
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15:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> why shouldn't you?
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15:42:47 <Rubidium> who says you should?
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15:44:11 <lc0293468> its possible in the game, so it should make sense in some situations
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15:45:04 <Rubidium> when you have two one-way roads with a free tram track inside of that and you want those two roads to have the same bus stop
15:45:23 <Rubidium> or when you want to build a road stop next to a competitor
15:45:59 <guru3> i feel like i'm going to have to write a todo list of things todo in this game because im making money so slow
15:46:08 <Eddi|zuHause> or when you want to connect the road station to a train station, but there is a house between the road and the station
15:53:17 <Zuu> oh, strg tranlates to the Ctrl key?
15:54:18 <Zuu> So strg is german for ctrl?
15:58:24 <peter1138> yes, germans have to give it their own name
15:58:49 <Zuu> They should know this is a English only channel. :-p
15:59:11 <peter1138> hmm, drawing a tiny cube is not easy :(
15:59:30 <Zuu> Had to re-read that a few times before figuring out that strg probably was ctrl and then things made sense.
16:01:44 <lc0293468> ^^ yes strg is german for ctrl, sorry
16:11:31 <fonsinchen> Are you merging some form of newgrf airports?
16:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... sorry, i didn't even realize he said strg instead of ctrl :)
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16:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the things that get auto-translated by reflex...
16:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... apparently George Lucas realized that he is totally not prepared to produce a Star Wars series at 1/10th of the budget of a film...
16:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i feel so sad for you.
16:23:02 <Rabbit> How do i make openttd work?
16:23:25 <Ammler> you should have asked before you got a mac ;-)
16:23:45 <Rabbit> I downloaded the file that is uspposed to have openttd in it, but there a lot of other stuff
16:23:57 <Rabbit> Help me out if you can
16:23:57 <Wolf01> congrats, you found the new mac port maintainer :D
16:24:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Rabbit: what exactly did you download?
16:24:07 <Ammler> easiest seems to build it self
16:24:34 <Rabbit> I downloaded it thru softpedia
16:25:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: too little. too late.
16:27:06 <guru3> woo 7 diamond mines serviced by one train
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16:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that's just silly...
16:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you need at least two trains to keep the station rating
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16:42:46 <guru3> it's sort of a for the hell of it line
16:42:52 <guru3> im playing this city mania thing
16:42:56 <guru3> no idea what im doing really
16:44:31 <guru3> may have screwed myself over by not picking a town with a water tower
16:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, bring food and water :)
16:46:14 <guru3> but dumping water off in a town with no water tower in some station on the edge
16:46:20 <guru3> doesn't look like it'shaving an effect
16:46:39 <Eddi|zuHause> towns on grass/rainforest don't need water
16:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> then you need to fund a water tower
16:47:30 <guru3> there's a water mine thingy in the twon
16:47:35 <guru3> so i can't (even if i did have 505k)
16:48:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that's bad for you...
16:49:12 <guru3> had no idea though when i started
16:51:27 <guru3> so instead i'll be having fin with my diamond mines
16:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> guru3: you can "cheat" by delivering to a water tower in the neighbouring town, as long as the station sign belongs to your town
16:53:11 <guru3> so basically as long as i deliver water _somewhere_ it's fine?
16:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can build a station in your town, and then "walk" it [by ctrl+build]
16:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, the station sign is what counts
16:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it must have your town's name in it [renaming doesn't count]
16:55:11 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on station spread value this might be easy or difficult ;)
16:55:35 <guru3> and the nearest town is owned by a competitor
16:56:07 <guru3> next nearest town has tracks between me and it
16:56:15 <guru3> i don't suppose you can build stations on bridges these days?
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17:01:51 <guru3> i will no better for my next game
17:04:07 <guru3> ok station in another town down
17:04:16 <guru3> all i need is another 220K to buy the water tower
17:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you have the diamonds for that :)
17:04:41 <guru3> diamond train aint making me that much money
17:05:06 <guru3> short transport distances
17:06:03 <guru3> my food train is the biggest money maker
17:06:55 <guru3> not sure if i can catch up to 2400 citizens at this point anyway
17:07:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Ketchup citizens. yummy
17:08:40 <guru3> haha yeah the guy in the town next to me is out of business
17:08:43 <guru3> so i can steal his water tower
17:11:57 <Hirundo> Delivering to an industry that is also serviced by someone else is not against any rule
17:12:15 <guru3> with the city mania mod you can't build within another company's chosen city limits
17:27:15 <Zuu> It seems that if you can force an edit box to become zero-with by resizing a window possible in conjunction with a translation with long strings, you can trigger an assert.
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17:27:35 <Zuu> I don't know if there is any resizeable windows with edit boxes in 1.0.3.
17:27:44 <Zuu> But there is one in trunk.
17:29:13 <frosch123> the add newgrf window in 1.0 has a editbox and is resizable
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17:38:14 <Zuu> It could be prone to the bug, if there is no mininum width set for the edit box, and there is a translation which translates "filter string" to something wide enough to cause the edit box to become zero width wide.
17:38:37 <Zuu> I've created a task for the bug @ FS#4010
17:39:38 <Zuu> So maybe I should hijack the swedish translation a bit and see if I can break the NewGRF window :-p
17:40:29 <Zuu> eg. "use this edit box here to the right to type a filter string to filter the list here below" :-p
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20388 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 216 changes by KorneySan, Wowanxm
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 5 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 5 changes by Yexo
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 7 changes by IPG
17:46:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 5 changes by lorenzodv
18:06:42 <Zuu> Shouldn't AIOrder.IsValidVehicleOrder(veh_id, order_id) return false for orders which has "(invalid order)" in the GUI???
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18:10:16 <Zuu> Or does it just tell that the order_id exist, and you then have to get the flags and check for the INVALID flag?
18:11:18 <Rubidium> I think letting it return false would make it "impossible" to remove those invalidorders
18:11:47 <Rubidium> or at least to define some sane way of telling that those kinds of invalid orders can be removed
18:12:14 <Zuu> Though the docs could have a note for that function that you must check the order flags if you want to know the invalidness of the order.
18:22:14 <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: could you tell TrueBrain that WT3 barfed on Belarusian again?
18:40:33 <Zuu> Hmm, invalid orders has GetOrderFlag: == 0, while AIOF_INVALID is 65535. :-s
18:42:46 <Zuu> So you can't use the test: (AIOrder.GetOrderFlags(veh, order) & AIOrder.AIOF_INVALID) != 0
18:44:52 <Rubidium> well... & AIOF_INVALID isn't that suitable in ANY case
18:45:49 <Zuu> How are you supposed to check for flag then?
18:46:09 <Rubidium> in any case GetOrderFlags also returns AIOF_INVALID for conditional orders
18:46:18 <Rubidium> Zuu: do you know how bitmath works?
18:46:32 <Rubidium> i.e. how an and works?
18:46:48 <Rubidium> do you know what 65535 equates to in bits?
18:47:01 <Zuu> I would guess it is all ones.
18:47:22 <Rubidium> which makes it match any order flag if it has at least one bit set
18:48:12 <Rubidium> but basically you need a function to check for "void" orders
18:49:08 <Zuu> so I should do (flags & AIOF_INVALID ) == AIOF_INVALID?
18:49:24 <Zuu> that would require flags to have all bits right?
18:49:56 <Zuu> still there is a problem that GetORderFlag returns 0 and not 65535.
18:50:36 <Rubidium> no, GetOrderFlags returns exactly following it's preconditions
18:55:36 <Zuu> hmm, but a void order is still a valid order with respect of IsValidVehicleOrder and it is not a conditional order, so it should pass the preconditions of GetOrderFlags ?
18:57:13 <frosch123> + * @pre order_position == ORDER_CURRENT || (!IsConditionalOrder(vehicle_id, order_position) || !IsVoidOrder(vehicle_id, order_position)). <- && right?
18:59:52 <Zuu> Your fix looks good. It should make the API usage more clear as well as fixing the issue.
19:00:49 <frosch123> Rubidium: don't forget the changelog :)
19:01:09 <Rubidium> writing that as you wrote that
19:01:50 <Rubidium> moar updates to the diff (i.e. the changelog
19:02:01 <Zuu> Would be helpfull if this gets backported as a "fix" to 1.0.4. Though I still need to find the bug in my AI that causes it to get void orders. :-)
19:02:19 <Rubidium> it removes a station/depot/waypoint
19:03:03 <Rubidium> you could hack openttd's sources to dump the name and such of the stations/depots before they give the vehicle orders a dummy order
19:03:44 <Zuu> Thank you Rubidium for that suggestion.
19:04:18 <Rubidium> it's in the doxygen comment of isvoidorder as well
19:04:25 <Zuu> Though, I have yet to reproduce the bug, which a reporter has been able to find twice. I have now restarted the savegame he gave me several times without reproducing the bug.. :-)
19:04:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20389 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_changelog.hpp ai_order.cpp ai_order.hpp ai_order.hpp.sq):
19:04:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Add: AIOrder::IsVoidOrder to find void "(Invalid Order)" orders.
19:04:34 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [NoAI] -Change: AIOrder::GetOrderFlags returns AIOrder::AIOF_INVALID for void orders.
19:04:48 <Rubidium> Zuu: did the reporter mess with the AI's company him/herself?
19:05:52 <Zuu> Does cheating show up in the gamelog?
19:06:21 <Zuu> hmm, silly question. It does show in the cheat window.. I should know that. :-)
19:07:53 <Zuu> So unless he has spent a lot of time in hacking OpenTTD to allow cheating without noting that in the savegame, he has not messed with the AI's company. :-)
19:25:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
19:53:19 <perk11> why russian and belorussian languages are locked in translator?
19:56:23 <Rubidium> because WT3 bugged on something
19:56:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20390 /trunk/src/ (company_gui.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Codechange: Move company vehicle counting to vehicle.cpp.
19:56:54 <Rubidium> and then ccfreak2k make TrueBrain change his nick yesterday, so he doesn't get highlighted anymore when I tell him WT3 messed up again
19:59:29 <Rubidium> Weirdo: but now on two languages :)
20:00:09 <Yexo> Weirdo: write the next version of WT (so we can also use it for other projects) :p
20:00:33 <aditsu> hi, there's one thing that annoys me very much: when one train goes to a wrong station and loads some stuff that I didn't want to load there, and then it keeps putting those products in that station... is there a way to fix it?
20:00:51 <Yexo> remove the station, wait until the sign it gone and rebuild it
20:01:31 <aditsu> but I have lots of trains going to that station, I'll have to redo the orders
20:01:59 <Yexo> yes, it's indeed annoying
20:03:10 <Rubidium> oh, or make the vehicles have non-stop orders
20:04:23 <Alberth> then they don't stop at stations where they are not supposed to arrive
20:04:27 <Rubidium> without non-stop it will stop and try to load/unload at any station it passes
20:04:39 <Weirdo> Rubidium: there you go
20:04:41 <Rubidium> with non-stop it doesn't stop at stations not in its orders
20:05:25 <aditsu> oh, you mean I should set all orders for all vehicles to be non-stop, to prevent this problem before happening?
20:05:48 <Rubidium> and there's a setting to make non-stop default
20:06:43 <Yexo> that only helps for new orders though
20:06:53 <Yexo> so it's something to use in your next game, it won't help fix your current game
20:07:41 <aditsu> not gonna change the orders of 713 trains now :p
20:11:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20391 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#3993]: Prevent buying more vehicles than allowed.
20:13:51 <aditsu> on a related note.. if I have a bunch of trains with identical orders, is it possible to make them all shared?
20:15:42 <aditsu> and I don't mean one by one
20:17:06 <Alberth> normally, you share the orders while buying the train ('cloning' actually)
20:18:01 <perk11> but may be there should be a setting "share orders by default", such as "non-stop by default" for usability improvement
20:18:12 <Dewin> Hmm. There isn't some sort of way to save/recall camera locations aside from opening viewports is there?
20:18:23 <aditsu> I didn't know about cloning with ctrl-click when I started this game
20:18:36 <Alberth> perk11: so how do you buy a train for a new line then?
20:19:15 <Dewin> Noldo: What I was thinking was something like ctrl+shift+1-0 to save the current view and ctrl+1-0 to recall the saved view.
20:19:34 <perk11> aditsu: you may send all those trains to the depot (via trainlist in station window) and clone new
20:19:43 <Alberth> perk11: you should not change the meaning of key combinations, unless you like getting very confused
20:20:11 <aditsu> it's not that simple..
20:20:38 <perk11> Alberth: maybe you are right, I've just thought
20:20:38 <Alberth> aditsu: open the order window of a train, click 'go to', then ctrl+click at a train you want to share the orders from
20:20:46 <Dewin> Oh. Ctrl+# toggles transparency. That's also convenient
20:21:22 <aditsu> Alberth: yes, but they're too many
20:21:37 <Dewin> maybe alt and alt+shift then, I don't think they do anything besides makes openttd beep at me
20:21:50 <Dewin> I might get tempted to write a patch...
20:21:59 <Alberth> aditsu: so let them run. when you buy new trains, have them share orders
20:22:19 <Alberth> aditsu: ie don't change things that work
20:23:03 <aditsu> Alberth: if I could make the existing one share orders, then it would be easier to redo the station
20:23:53 <frosch123> aditsu: select the station, select the trains going to that station, send them to depot, sell them ,and rebuild with cloning :)
20:24:38 <Dewin> How many trains are there?
20:24:59 * andythenorth plays the game a bit
20:25:06 <aditsu> first, there are 4-5 different groups of trains with identical orders, second there are totally 92 trains going to that station
20:25:59 <andythenorth> how do I modify catchment areas?
20:26:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20392 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp company_func.h economy.cpp): -Fix [FS#3993]: Prevent buying bankrupt companies when you'd get too many vehicles.
20:26:17 <aditsu> I have another idea.. I'll remove a piece of the station and make a new one next to it, then gradually "move" the trains
20:26:33 <Yexo> andythenorth: while playing the game? by building another airport type
20:26:42 <Yexo> or by adding/removing station tiles
20:27:15 <andythenorth> I wonder if smaller catchment areas makes for interesting gameplay
20:28:17 <frosch123> disable the realistic catchment area, iirc the non-realistic ones are all smaller
20:28:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20393 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#3993]: Prevent taking over competitors when you'd get too many vehicles.
20:28:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: tried that
20:28:48 <Yexo> the non-realistic catchment area means 4 for all station types (including airports)
20:28:49 <andythenorth> realistic looks bigger to me
20:29:01 <Yexo> realistic means 4 for train stations, 3 for bus/truck and variable for airports
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20:29:24 <andythenorth> is it easy to add another option...'Hard'?
20:29:54 <frosch123> does that setting really change that much? isn't stationspread more important?
20:30:05 <frosch123> esp. with irregular stations
20:30:48 <Eddi|zuHause> funny... i always think catchment areas are too small...
20:31:02 <andythenorth> I kind of wonder how cargo gets to / from the station....?
20:31:09 <Alberth> can you not reduce the station spread in the settings?
20:31:15 <andythenorth> won't make the game harder
20:31:30 <andythenorth> having to place stations *right* next to industry will make it harder
20:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you don't want every 3rd tile to be a tram station...
20:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can try to halve catchment area for anything that is not CC_PASSENGER
20:32:44 <andythenorth> so freight / passenger could have different catchments?
20:32:44 <frosch123> andythenorth: that does not change anything if you put the station to both sides of the industry
20:34:58 <andythenorth> I know realism is not the point...but...
20:35:41 <Yexo> andythenorth: without also making station spread a lot smaller you could build a single truck stop next to the sand mine connected to the docks
20:35:52 <Yexo> same effect as now, sand is "teleported" to the other station part
20:36:35 <Yexo> you can also build two train platforms each on one side of a canal and still use a transfer order, the goods are still moved
20:36:40 <andythenorth> or, for eye candy, I could just run trucks. But that doesn't make it harder....
20:37:01 <andythenorth> I think smaller catchments would be interesting to play with
20:37:14 <andythenorth> I'd put it in the same class as 'forbid 90 degree turns'
20:37:22 <andythenorth> or airport noise limit
20:37:31 <Yexo> station_type.h:77 and onwards
20:37:41 <Yexo> you can changed the constants there to have a different catchment area
20:37:44 <Yexo> see if that works for you
20:38:19 <andythenorth> probably going to make towns too hard
20:38:40 <andythenorth> passengers / mail might be too hard to pickup
20:38:49 <andythenorth> food / goods will be too hard to deliver
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20:53:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20394 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix [FS#4010]: make the default minimum width for editboxes 10 pixels
20:54:00 <andythenorth> 2 tile catchment areas do indeed suck for towns :(
20:54:43 <andythenorth> pretty good for industry though
21:01:30 * andythenorth plays crazy small catchment game
21:01:40 <andythenorth> also...good night
21:02:06 <roelmb> I have a little problem applying a Git patch
21:02:23 <roelmb> can anyone help me with that?
21:02:44 <roelmb> I get a patch format detection failed error
21:03:14 <Yexo> which patch are you trying to apply?
21:03:26 <Yexo> and which program are you using to apply it?
21:03:49 <Yexo> got a link to that patch?
21:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> roelmb: you really should use command-line patch
21:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> roelmb: or check out the cargodist repository directly
21:04:55 <roelmb> its modified by yorick I think
21:05:48 <roelmb> @yexo can you acces the link?
21:07:04 <Yexo> patch can apply it without any problems
21:07:12 <Yexo> I don't have tortoisegit, so can't help you with that
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23:34:27 <Identity^X> Hi. I have a busy city airport, with about 20 inbound flights. I want to replace it with a Metropolitan one, but it's always got planes going to and fro, so I can't do the building work. Is there an easier way to do this, other than redirecting all flights?
23:42:04 <Yexo> Identity^X: there is currently no easier way
23:47:17 <Identity^X> It's kind of exciting frantically redirecting them anyhow :)
23:49:43 <Yexo> there is a much newver version of that patch on the forums
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