IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-08-01
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01:03:32 <quaie> hallo, is there a way to stop the decrease of the materials waiting in one station ? I have this problem with raw materials
01:32:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, always have a train waiting, so the rating stays over 50%
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06:09:49 <andythenorth> it would be a wrong hack, but newgrf settings GUI could be used to provide readme, instructions, help, changelog etc
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06:48:54 * andythenorth wonders how static newgrf texts should be internationalised
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07:18:01 * andythenorth has a monologue with self about static newgrf info
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07:52:06 * andythenorth tries to figure out how FIRS industry closure works :o
07:52:23 <andythenorth> not being able to remember your own design....probably not a good sign :P
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08:30:43 <Rubidium> andythenorth: copy the action14 and replace the 7F with whatever the language code is for the translation
08:31:13 <Rubidium> although you might want to make one action14 with the non-text data and then for each language one with the text
08:31:24 <andythenorth> thanks. That should probably use the template framework in FIRS
08:31:48 <Rubidium> so you don't have to copy much of the non-text when you're making minor changes
08:32:48 <andythenorth> It's going to be an interesting challenge....for someone else :P
08:32:56 <andythenorth> planetmaker will enjoy that when he returns :)
08:33:15 <andythenorth> FIRS now supports settings GUI fully
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08:48:04 * andythenorth wonders how to backport to create a FIRS 0.3 release...?
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08:53:07 <andythenorth> to backport....hg transplant or hg rebase?
08:55:25 <Alberth> rebase sounds wrong at least, as you move changesets rather than copy
08:55:42 <Alberth> I don't know what transplant does
08:58:51 <Alberth> I never did anything as complicated. Perhaps you should make a clone, and do some experimenting
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09:01:16 <andythenorth> I broke my branch :|
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09:22:17 * andythenorth is stumped by mercurial
09:22:42 <andythenorth> I have no way to make a FIRS 0.3 release cleanly (mostly because I'm too stupid) :P
09:23:05 <andythenorth> I also have merges coming out of my ears
09:26:42 <fonsinchen> They should be going into your ears though. Might be easier to merge them then.
09:27:20 <andythenorth> I shouldn't be left alone in charge of a repo, I'm not smart enough :\
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09:44:58 * andythenorth invents a way to do FIRS 0.3 release
09:45:33 <andythenorth> I could delete all the code from tip that break savegames, then tag 0.3, then put them back using copy and paste or from my backups
09:46:23 <andythenorth> probably the easiest route
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10:03:50 <andythenorth> the FIRS repo is fucked
10:04:10 <andythenorth> all changes since r1012 appear to be gone
10:08:29 <Rubidium> then tell Ammler to cancel the backing up of that repository so it won't overwrite the backup
10:08:52 <Rubidium> or is it only locally?
10:08:55 <TomyLobo> andythenorth i thought hg didnt have revision numbers
10:09:04 <TomyLobo> or are you using both svn and hg?
10:09:19 <Rubidium> hg has (local) revision numbers
10:09:41 <TomyLobo> right i remember now
10:09:50 <TomyLobo> they said they're just there to confuse people
10:09:58 <TomyLobo> i think that's what just happened to you :)
10:09:58 * andythenorth tries a fresh clone of remote repo
10:10:00 <Rubidium> andythenorth: maybe you're still in the 0.3 branch?
10:24:27 <fonsinchen> has the key-combo for the cheat menu been changed?
10:25:52 <Rubidium> Yexo: ^ more hotkey troubles
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10:31:16 <Yexo> fonsinchen: ctrl+alt+c works fine here
10:31:58 <Rubidium> Yexo: current HEAD: remove hotkeys.cfg, start openttd (ctrl+alt+c works), close openttd, start openttd (ctrl+alt+c doesn't work)
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10:42:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20274 /trunk/src/hotkeys.cpp: -Fix: special keycodes were matched if a code matched the start of the string (ie 'C' matched 'CTRL')
10:42:55 <Yexo> fonsinchen: deleting your hotkeys.cfg is the easiest way to fix (after updating to r20274)
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10:53:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20275 /trunk/src/hotkeys.cpp: -Fix (r20274): some compilers are complaining about signed/unsigned comparison
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11:10:30 <andythenorth> a clone then revert to r1081 of FIRS remote repo solves some of the issues I'm seeing
11:14:52 <andythenorth> revert to r1082 also works
11:15:01 * andythenorth wonders if there's a way to clean a remote hg repo
11:15:45 <andythenorth> Ammler: FIRS commits 1083-1085 may need to be removed.
11:16:07 <andythenorth> would you mind helping?
11:18:29 <andythenorth> unless I'm doing it wrong
11:18:41 <andythenorth> revert to r1082 then make produces a broken firs grf
11:18:58 <andythenorth> revert to r1081, make, then revert to r1082 and make produces a working firs grf
11:19:02 <andythenorth> which makes no sense
11:22:54 <Wolf01> andythenorth, and "make clean"?
11:26:15 <andythenorth> Wolf01: appears to work with make clean
11:26:24 <andythenorth> I could just be doing bad science
11:27:29 <Wolf01> I always forget to clean after reverting some patches, then I get compiling errors or strange behavior on the game
11:28:17 <andythenorth> so if I am at a revision in my local repo that works, how do I make that tip?
11:28:31 <andythenorth> do I just commit?
11:28:43 <andythenorth> no that won't work
11:29:55 <Wolf01> you need to downgrade then commit, at least I do it this way, but it works for stupid and very wrong changes
11:32:20 <Wolf01> for other changes, such some lines etc, you might need to revert only one file or two and make changes by hand, or blame the wrong commit, but I don't know how to do it
11:32:30 <andythenorth> do I use hg update?
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11:36:01 <Wolf01> I don't use hg, so I can't help you there
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12:44:54 <bloopletech> I'm looking to start playing multiplayer for the first time, but I'm having trouble finding an active multiplayer game
12:46:38 <bloopletech> Is there an easy way to work out which games are currently active apart from the number of users, because both games I've connected to with 2 or 3 users has been inactive
12:47:06 <yorick> players inside a company
12:48:07 <Alberth> usually, servers have fairly recent openttd versions, so if you have an old version, the number of servers you can play on may be small
12:48:28 <bloopletech> Alberth, I just upgraded to 1.0.3 :)
12:48:54 <Alberth> perhaps I should repeat that sentence for too new versions :)
12:49:20 <Alberth> it came out yesterday evening, so many sysops have not had time to install that version
12:49:53 <bloopletech> OK, I'll rollback to 1.0.2
12:51:52 <bloopletech> Alberth, yeah that's odd I see many more servers/games from within OpenTTD
12:52:08 <yorick> it gives only the latest version
12:52:28 <bloopletech> ah now it gives multiple versions
12:52:44 <bloopletech> Alberth, that was with 1.0.3, I just rolled back so will have another look
12:58:39 <bloopletech> Found a game thanks all
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13:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i should have put some progress output in my "find . -type f -exec cmp {} /backup/{} \;" line...
13:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but find doesn't go alphabetically
13:41:44 <Alberth> note sure what you are doing, but if you make a backup, would rsync not be easier?
13:42:58 <Alberth> or a plain copy, as 'cmp' most likely pulls all files from the disk any way
13:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't meant as a backup...
13:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it was meant as a check for "can i throw away one of these?"
13:52:37 <Alberth> it also does grouping by name of equal files
13:56:22 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: how about md5sum + sort + diff
13:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: doesn't make a difference, because i have to read all files anyway...
13:58:31 <Alberth> my script first orders on file size, which saves a LOT of file reading
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14:27:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20276 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/belarusian.txt: -Update: add some genders/cases to Belarusian
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14:31:25 <andythenorth> "a release a release, my kingdom for a release"
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14:41:11 <bloopletech> wow, just had my first multiplayer openttd experience, and my first experience of openttd multiplayer cheating
14:42:48 <bloopletech> 'Kucluk' broke rules 1 and 3 of the multiplayer rules on the wiki
14:43:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20277 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace_cmd.cpp company_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Move CmdSetAutoReplace() from company_cmd.cpp to autoreplace_cmd.cpp.
14:44:17 <bloopletech> He attempted to prevent me from laying rail, and then took over another players company just to break his rail links etc, admitted it and eventually said "THX TO ALL" "SORY TO BE CHEATING"
14:44:33 <bloopletech> he claimed the other player had bought exclusive rights to a town
14:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> so? he can just overrule that by buying them himself...
14:45:16 <bloopletech> There are two players called kucluk though, apparently
14:46:13 <Alberth> he is sorry only for being caught with his pants down
14:46:24 <bloopletech> Oh and this other player is making it very difficult to build rail links between these two towns by building closely spaced roads so I can't build a station >2 tiles and can't link them easily
14:46:59 <bloopletech> Are there any moderated games running?
14:47:00 <Rubidium> bloopletech: that's just annoying players and a server that isn't properly moderated
14:47:19 <Rubidium> there are moderated games, but I'm not sure which one are running at the moment
14:50:16 <roboboy> I once had a cheater on Brianetta's old server going by the name of something rather rude who was blocking my oil and goods ships with land and then building rails above
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15:26:32 *** Strider was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
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15:28:27 <Hirundo> #openttd != #openttdcoop
15:30:38 <Strider> I've been reading the wiki
15:35:10 <Strider> does it matter which OS i use o connect to the servers?
15:35:33 <Strider> I just got Linux so i'm still new to it lol
15:36:12 <__ln__> your 'lol' quota for today is reached
15:36:44 <Strider> I'll try to act a bit more mature.
15:37:20 <Strider> I've had a bit of experience with these type of games
15:37:20 <bloopletech> Strider, good on you :)
15:37:44 <Strider> I loved Sim City and Railroad Tycoon
15:38:14 <Strider> Though, Railroad tycoon got confusing.
15:38:35 <Chrill> I liked Railroad Tycoon, both II and III. Never played the very original though
15:38:47 <andythenorth> RT 3 is the ultimate industry game
15:39:03 <Strider> Yeah, I think it was 3 I played
15:39:27 <Strider> I like the scenarios where I had to cross America.
15:39:46 <Strider> Money was a big problem
15:40:49 <Strider> Anyway, I really like the idea of Co-op
15:41:09 <Strider> It seems like you guys would be able to get alot done really quickly.
15:42:17 <Yexo> <Hirundo> #openttd != #openttdcoop <- you should try the other channel
15:43:11 <Yexo> Strider: in case you didn't get it, that was for you
15:43:58 <Strider> I'm a bit confused though, what is this channel used for generally?
15:44:54 <Yexo> all kind of discussions related (and unrelated) to openttd
15:45:23 <Strider> Ok, thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
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16:28:49 <[hta]specx> is this based on company value or performance?
16:33:21 <Yexo> hq has five sizes, points needed for each size: 0, 170, 350, 520, 720
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16:34:11 <silvar_> im running openttd on ubuntu 10.04, ive downloaded all the stuff i need (graphics, sounds and music) but when the game is running it doesnt play the music
16:34:19 <silvar_> on the jukebox it is just skipping through all the tracks
16:35:14 <Yexo> sounds familiar, but I can't remember the exact cause
16:35:19 <Yexo> what version of openttd are you using/
16:36:13 <silvar_> timidity you say? ill give it a go
16:36:44 <Alberth> searching the forums usually also helps
16:37:07 <glx> reading the readme too :)
16:37:30 <silvar_> timidity is for playing midi files yet i can already play midi files
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17:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Aug 1 18:13:55 johannes-i kernel: MCE: The hardware reports a non fatal, correctable incident occurred on CPU 0.
17:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i should really throw this computer away...
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17:39:02 <Tennel> hello, how do u create the header in your source code files?
17:40:23 <Rubidium> touch foo.h (less keypressed)
17:40:38 <Tennel> but it looks generates -> /* $Id: newgrf.cpp 20266 2010-07-31 21:02:56Z alberth $ */
17:41:02 <Rubidium> just copy such a line; it'll be automagically corrected when committed
17:41:20 <Rubidium> as long as there's /* $Id.*$ */
17:41:23 * andythenorth ponders sailing ships
17:41:34 <Alberth> even /* $Id$ */ will work
17:42:19 <SpComb> har har, version id as part of your version control system
17:42:25 * SpComb wonders how to implement that for mercurial or git
17:43:17 <Rubidium> SpComb: shouldn't be that hard, as long as you're using hashes and not revs
17:44:04 <SpComb> yes, but how do you know what hash to insert into the file?
17:44:22 <SpComb> assuming here that one does it at commit time
17:44:54 <Rubidium> I'd assume it's by the clients
17:45:14 <SpComb> funny point here being that the rev hash is calculated from the contents of the files
17:45:25 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 5 hours, 6 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Pikka> goodnight wallyweb
17:45:33 <Tennel> Rubidium: how does the automatically correction work? which software?
17:46:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20279 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Doc: Doxygen additions/improvements.
17:46:09 <Rubidium> Tennel: dunno, but if you want to know ask in #subversion
17:46:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20278 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 9 changes by burgerd
17:46:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 840 changes by KorneySan, Wowanxm
17:46:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 10 changes by ReisRyos
17:46:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:46:50 <SpComb> dunno, never used those id tags myself, so I don't even know at what point they are substituted in
17:47:12 <Rubidium> SpComb: I'd say it happens client side
17:47:18 <SpComb> but it might be difficult for VCS systems with crypographical properties for their revision identifiers
17:47:40 <SpComb> you mean working copy?
17:48:07 <SpComb> i.e. repo just has $Id$, working copy has the full tag?
17:48:29 <SpComb> ah well, confusing in any case, better to just do it as part of the build system...
17:48:48 <Alberth> Tennel: you tell svn to substitute the header with svn:keywords property, then it takes care of automagic filling of $Id$
17:49:16 * andythenorth has to come up with some sailing ships
17:50:30 <Alberth> you don't want those tags expanded in the repo, they break finding relevant changes
17:56:10 <Ammler> SpComb, afaik mercurial has a extension for key substitution
17:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: the build system can't handle marking of source files
17:58:21 <Ammler> dvcs don't need that anyway, as you have the whole history anyway...
18:01:49 <Alberth> it is mainly useful when you make hard-copies imho
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18:03:28 <TruePikachu> Shift-click on a loan button (either repay or take out)
18:03:45 <TruePikachu> I think that is unintended behaviour
18:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: what do you think is the bug there?
18:04:18 <TruePikachu> Estimated cost: $0
18:04:44 <TruePikachu> Buying/taking out loan is NOT a construction tool ;)
18:04:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it doesn't cost money to lend money ;)
18:05:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TruePikachu: all buttons have a cost estimation
18:05:14 <TruePikachu> Oh, I didn't see that
18:05:26 * TruePikachu goes to find out how much it costs to stop a train
18:05:53 * Rubidium waits for the "cost estimation of X isn't the same as the actual cost" bug report
18:06:10 <TruePikachu> ^^^ That is AFAIKO only with terraforming
18:06:30 <TruePikachu> I think it is only with it on water, in addition
18:06:50 <TruePikachu> Multiplying the water destruction cost by some number and adding it to the total
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18:09:09 <andythenorth> sailing ship types are based on sail plan, not size of ship
18:09:54 <andythenorth> that will make for a disorderly buy menu :P
18:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem with sail ships is their height
18:10:15 <andythenorth> they'll clip bridges
18:10:35 <Alberth> you should first open the bridge
18:10:45 <__ln__> or not build the bridge
18:10:55 <Alberth> or not sail into the harbour
18:11:05 <andythenorth> or sink the boat
18:11:10 <[hta]specx> Yexo: i'll update the wiki page.
18:11:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need to make sure they're not significantly higher than a normal vehicle
18:11:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean like at the start of pirates of the carribbean? :)
18:11:35 <Alberth> andythenorth: we already have a submarine, that saves you drawing one
18:13:32 <__ln__> what if.. if you block your harbour with bridges, then your sailship just can't enter it. that would be somewhat realistic (ne pas Québec)
18:14:09 <Eddi|zuHause> did you mean: n'est pas?
18:19:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you can also say: n'est-ce pas?
18:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> but my french is really rusty
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18:36:52 <chakravanti> i gotta say myonly real complaint is that i have to keep my nose to my big ass screen to see trafficsignals
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18:38:28 <Wolf01> ask for a more zoom levels feature
18:41:47 <Xaroth> disclaimer: people might laugh at you.
18:41:48 <andythenorth> opening bridges?
18:41:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ like level crossings no / yes?
18:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: very no. ;)
18:42:40 <Alberth> chakravanti: we are still looking for someone to write a patch for that
18:43:18 <Wolf01> andythenorth, and if a maglev is coming at ludicrous speed and the bridge is open? the bridge will close istantaneously and crash the ship or the maglev will crash into the bridge?
18:43:38 <andythenorth> simple. the maglev will stop at ludicrous speed
18:43:39 <Alberth> it wll fly across the open space
18:43:46 <andythenorth> PBS will find that the path ends :P
18:43:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i do not remember anyone succeding at implementing bridge action 1/2/3
18:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that could allow opening etc.
18:44:07 <andythenorth> although it's also potential for "yet another tiresome new disaster idea"
18:45:05 <Wolf01> but it might break the signals on bridge.. so we must chose between having signals on bridges or london-tower-bridge style bridges...
18:45:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant visually opening. to make the vehicles adhere to it is a different thing
18:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: there are no signals on bridges.
18:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i don't see the two things colliding.
18:46:45 <Wolf01> train stopped on the red signal on bridge, the bridge opens, the train sinks... or the bridge won't open and the ship crash :D
18:48:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20280 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Fix: indentation of some switch cases
18:49:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: "simple": train or reservation on bridge -> no opening bridge -> ship has to stop
18:50:19 <Ammler> debug_level is 0 for everything, but still ai debug lines, where else could that be set?
18:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: now please use a full sentence.
18:51:24 <Ammler> we have lines like "[2010-08-01 20:48:49] dbg: [ai] 1: content_download/ai/library/Pathfinder.Road.3.tar/pathfinder.road.3/main.nut"
18:51:27 <Wolf01> I think this could be implemented by adding bridge height, so you can know the height of the bridge on a certain tile, and maybe it could allow bridge over bridge as side effect
18:51:36 <Ammler> in the console, but debug_level is 0 for everthing
18:53:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20281 /trunk/src/ (66 files in 8 dirs): -Codechange: unify case scope closure + break coding style
18:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i think AI has some debug=0 messages
18:54:58 <Rubidium> for crashing AIs IIRC
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18:55:34 <Ammler> so the only solution is removing those AIs?
18:57:38 <Ammler> or is there a -1 level :-)
18:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: maybe you want to suggest to turn them into debug=1 messages, and setting ai debug to level 1 by default
19:01:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20282 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp map_func.h terraform_gui.cpp): -Codechange: add some spaces where they should've been
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19:13:50 <chakravanti> lets say i have a loop with 3 coal mines and a power station. each coal mine having a station bypass track...is there a way I can put all the trains to go around the loop and skip the next destinations to go directly back to the power station once it is %100 full?
19:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> try conditional orders
19:17:08 <chakravanti> you mean 'load if available'?
19:17:27 <chakravanti> because when i had that and not 'load all' or whatever it drove out empty
19:17:36 <chakravanti> from all my coal mines =/
19:17:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no, like "jump to order 5 if load state = 100%"
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19:22:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20283 /trunk/src/ (162 files in 19 dirs): -Codechange: Unify start of doygen comments.
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19:36:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20284 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (24 files): -Codechange: use ///< for single-line doxygen comments in the AI code
19:37:11 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20285 /trunk/src/ai/ (6 files): -Codechange: use ///< for single-line doxygen comments in the AI code
19:45:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20286 /trunk/src/ (93 files in 18 dirs): -Codechange: Unify end of doxygen comments.
19:53:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20287 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix: GCC 4.1 warning
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20:41:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20288 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (50 files): -Doc: add doxygen string to all GetClassName functions (part of all AI api classes)
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20:52:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20289 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Unify fall through coding style.
20:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: people have been reporting that high daylength causes their cities to decline. i think the reason for this is that removal of houses is done in the tileloop, and that is not affected by daylength factor
20:56:14 <Eddi|zuHause> earlier daylength patches did not suffer this problem, because town growth wasn't affected by daylength either
20:58:22 <peter1138> if select returns bad file descriptor
20:58:29 <peter1138> how can i tell which fd is bad? :S
20:58:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20290 /trunk/src/ (console_gui.cpp order_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Add missing 'break' statements.
20:59:53 <peter1138> that works on FILE *, not fd
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21:12:38 <Alberth> peter1138: select man page: " On exit, the sets are modified in place to indicate which descriptors actually changed status. "
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21:16:06 <Alberth> hmm, stupid fedora, no manpages by default with development
21:16:34 <win7frog> there's a major height problem in RU in 1.0.2 - was it fixed in 1.0.3?
21:17:13 <win7frog> or do I still have to refont the game to fix it?
21:18:21 <Rubidium> yes, all unreported "bugs" have been fixed in 1.0.3
21:18:33 <Yexo> it was reported in this channel, but never on FS
21:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the game doesn't contain a russian font...
21:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so it picks one automatically...
21:20:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r20291 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp os/macosx/splash.cpp): -Codechange: Unify break coding style.
21:22:20 <win7frog> the RU font that is auto-used... makes the settings window (in presence of open*fx) not fit in 480 pixels of height.
21:22:58 <win7frog> to fix this personally, each user must put arial narrow as the in-game font.
21:24:03 <win7frog> but it is still only a partial fix, as toolbar may still overlap the settings "close" button
21:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> win7frog: well, make a screenshot, and put a report up in flyspray
21:26:18 <win7frog> screenshot of the game with unmodified cfg, or with arialized one?
21:26:23 <Rubidium> and tell us what font it is actually used
21:26:49 <win7frog> I don't know what font it uses, probably a [system] font referrer
21:28:28 <Rubidium> without being to reproduce the issue there is no way to fix it, i.e. to know what to look for in the font during automatic font selection
21:29:11 <win7frog> okay, it seems that for non-english languages (sprite font not found), it uses [system]
21:29:32 <win7frog> [system] is a referrer to the system font
21:31:00 <Rubidium> it doesn't use referers, it just looks at the actual fonts
21:31:29 <win7frog> then it probably tries to take on the font the OS currently uses
21:31:47 <Rubidium> please stop guessing what it does
21:32:31 <Rubidium> especially when you have not looked at the actual code, thus do actually have the faintest idea what is *actually* going on
21:37:15 <win7frog> I tried changing the OS font to Arial Narrow, the game did not catch it.
21:39:18 <win7frog> this overheight can be partially fixed through arial narrow font. But I need a full fix.
21:39:46 <Rubidium> reduce the font height in openttd.cfg
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21:46:20 <glx> openttd just use the first font able to display all the string
21:54:02 <Rubidium> Lakie: regarding your last changes on the TTDP wiki; does r2301 actually mean r2331?
21:55:02 * Lakie was tired when updating the wiki
21:56:47 <frosch123> though i am not sure what is the right thing there
21:57:06 <Lakie> I'm afraid I don't really understand how the newgrf loader works, properly
21:57:17 <Lakie> So, it'd be better if you asked Oskar
21:57:32 <Lakie> I don't see why we should have to skip over it fully though.
21:57:37 <frosch123> hmm, that means forums
21:57:58 <Rubidium> and on a somewhat related note; does TTDPatch integrate the "default" transmitter/lighthouse and such into the newobjects, or are those still considered outside of that scope? Or is it that if you want those structures via newobjects you need to "code" them into a grf?
21:58:06 <Yexo> because currently ttdpatch disables every newgrf with an action14
21:58:09 <Lakie> My understanding of some of the internals of TTDPatch is less than great.
21:58:25 <Yexo> even if said action14 is skipped via action9
21:59:04 <Lakie> Well, currently the aren't part of newobjects, I imagine that at some point there will be some conversion, Rubidium
21:59:58 <frosch123> transmitter/lighthouse sound more like newobjects than statue and headquarter :)
22:00:21 * Lakie didn't originally decide what was in classA
22:00:25 <Rubidium> true, but the former two are autogenerated during map generation
22:00:53 <Rubidium> the others should "definitely" not be "default" newobject things
22:01:01 <frosch123> is there a reason to not also allow newobjects being placed on map generation?
22:01:24 <Lakie> (because I never thought of that)
22:01:50 <Lakie> I don't see any reason not to though, 'cept obvious objects
22:02:14 <frosch123> i have barely an idea about objects :)
22:02:20 <Rubidium> although those could easily be expansions of the current spec
22:02:58 <peter1138> grrrr, wish efence didn't crash itself :s
22:02:58 <frosch123> but i guess player-placeable but non-destructable objects might be troublesome for multiplayer :p
22:03:46 <Lakie> But, one guesses that you wouldn't use grfs with unremovable objects in mp
22:04:00 <Rubidium> ah, and "Removal cost is actually income (owned land behaviour)" <- do you get the same amount back as you paid for it? As curently owned land returns less than you paid for it (at least in OTTD)
22:04:16 <Lakie> Currently at 50% return
22:04:17 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20292 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remove some unused variables from AIConfigWindow
22:05:31 <Lakie> The only reason the older objects weren't ported in ttdpatch was mainly for compatibliy with other configurations, I don't think you'll suffer from that limitation though.
22:06:27 <Lakie> I presume you plan on porting support in openttd?
22:06:35 <Lakie> Well, adding support for
22:06:54 <Rubidium> doing some research about how to do it; not sure whether I've got the time to actually do it
22:07:13 <Rubidium> and basically trying to revive some of Belugas' work, if possible
22:07:56 <Rubidium> though it's a bit an "all or nothing" thing; implementing newobjects and later moving the transmitters and lighthouses might be somewhat troublesome
22:08:07 <Lakie> Well, some of thre pther feedbak I've not dealt with from grf authors is they want to scrap the cb149 check (and allow construction on steep slopes), I'll probably have more later this week
22:08:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r20293 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Doc: add more doxygen comments in ai_gui.cp
22:09:00 <win7frog> steep slopes? make building cost QUADRIPLE
22:09:03 * Rubidium wonders what's wrong about a land slope check?
22:09:07 <Lakie> As I said, I believe OpenTTD should migrate most of it in one batch. (Begulas also thought this was the best way to go)
22:09:21 <Lakie> I dunno, the grf authors don't like it
22:09:33 <Lakie> I THought it'd be nice to allow greater flexibility
22:09:43 <Rubidium> or is it called without callback mask "bit" set
22:09:49 <Rubidium> i.e. unconditionally
22:10:10 <Rubidium> or is it that it's the same callback id as for stations
22:10:49 <Rubidium> as basically there's no shared callback id, just some callback ids that do the same but for other features
22:11:16 <Rubidium> is removal cost "always" 50% of build cost?
22:11:27 <Lakie> Ah right, I think that was the main complaint that it should be seperate or removed.
22:11:40 <Lakie> I'm not sure, just looking it up
22:11:53 <Rubidium> or just 100%, and -50% when bit 4 of prop 10 is set
22:12:04 <Lakie> Originally it was meant to be the same factor as bought land
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22:14:32 <Lakie> Ok, I think I understand, should actually be 20% from reading the idb
22:15:11 <Lakie> (I'm sorry about not knowing all the technicalities, a lot of this was worked through 2 years back)
22:16:20 <Lakie> But yeah, looks like a mistake by me, should've been -.2 not -.5 with that sell bit
22:17:06 <Lakie> (Based ff the idb, might be different in openttd, 10*roughland for buy, -2*roughland for sell)
22:18:37 <Lakie> Oh, TTD's exe code dump, I think
22:19:35 <Lakie> 'tis how we find the fragments and places to patch
22:19:48 <Rubidium> but yes, openttd has 10* and -2*, though also a different base cost for removal and building of "unmovables"
22:19:49 <Yexo> openttd also uses 10/2 for buy/sell of land
22:20:20 <Lakie> I think it's best objects keep the same ratio
22:20:41 <Rubidium> although... those base costs are new and they will get the CLEAR_ROUGH value if not overridden
22:21:23 <Rubidium> technically it might be better to add a removal cost property
22:22:16 <Rubidium> which defaults to n% of the build cost
22:28:18 <Lakie> Well, atleast now is a good time for fine tuning, now that some grf developers are interested in making use of the spec and able to give feedback also
22:39:37 <Rubidium> Lakie: how is the "object size" supposed to work, especially how does it know what sprites to draw?
22:40:05 <Lakie> Well object size should be a byte, with an x, y nibbles
22:40:43 <Lakie> Currently I think var40 gives the location in the grf
22:40:43 <Rubidium> yeah, but you have one "spec" for the whole thing, or multiple (like houses)
22:41:19 <Lakie> And yes, I was attempting to keep objects basic...
22:41:38 <Lakie> (Something which appears to be biting back). :(
22:41:39 <Rubidium> okay, so it's all done in the action2 thing
22:44:42 <frosch123> fields are supposed to also do everything in the action2
22:44:58 <Rubidium> and a 4 bit animation counter
22:45:07 <frosch123> though that fails when the industry closes down
22:45:24 <frosch123> (i actually wondered to keep the industry pool item until all fields are gone)
22:47:32 <Rubidium> might it be useful, for "random bits" to have the northern most tile as the related object of all object tiles? Like for vehicles you can get the head of the consist
22:48:00 <Lakie> I didn't think of that, I suppoise it would be
22:48:43 <Lakie> So each tile has randbits and you have the option of getting the origin tiles rand bits?
22:49:03 <Rubidium> that way you can have some random bits shared throughout the whole structure
22:49:21 <Lakie> Not sure how to do that, but I'll give it a try
22:54:46 * Rubidium is having fun with statistics
22:55:03 <Rubidium> there are only 40% more OpenTTD users than TTDPatch users
22:55:29 * Lakie thought it was closer to 4:1
22:56:02 <Rubidium> 342 TTDPatch nightly downloads over the last 2 weeks, 855 for nightly downloads for OpenTTD over the last week. 14 OpenTTD nightlies vs 4 TTDPatch nightlies
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22:56:46 <Rubidium> @calc (855*2/14)/(342/4)
22:56:46 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1.42857142857
22:58:56 <keoz> I'm not sure that nightly downloaders are so representative of general users
22:59:00 <Yexo> Lakie: to spoil the fun: yesterday only there were 2514 openttd-stable downloads
22:59:25 <win7frog> nightly downloaders are fanatic nixies
22:59:53 <Rubidium> Lakie: it's all in (mis)explaining the data
23:00:15 <frosch123> hehe, i wonder if there are really people downloading a nightly every day
23:00:18 <Rubidium> e.g. over (almost) 2 years the average download count for OpenTTD is 226 nightlies a day
23:00:30 <Lakie> Well, Yexo I did expecct more openttd ones. :p
23:00:41 <Rubidium> and as frosch123 says... almost no people download every night, and if they would they probably just svn up && make
23:01:12 <win7frog> those wanting a ttd mplay but not able to adjust dosbox - those are dloaders of ottd
23:01:40 <Rubidium> and due to the recent activity in TTDPatch's svn repository the short-term average download is quite high
23:01:50 * peter1138 grumbles about efence some more
23:01:57 <win7frog> at least 40% of those actually own a copy ttd.
23:01:57 <Lakie> Well, as has been mentedion before openttd is now much more high profile, so will net these people
23:02:27 <peter1138> efence segfaults inside memalign
23:02:32 <win7frog> keoz, not only linuxers. also macfreaks/bsdbombers
23:02:33 <peter1138> this is clearly gotta be efence's fault?
23:02:44 <Rubidium> and... TTDPatch is probably only really useful (read: relatively bug free and feature rich) if you use the nightlies instead of the (ancient) stable release
23:03:02 <keoz> I think most linuxers directly go to OTTD, without trying via dosbox/wine other such things
23:03:06 <peter1138> or am i not allowed to do malloc(21) ?
23:03:44 <Rubidium> peter1138: probably, but that's only half of the Answer
23:03:58 <Lakie> From my quick test, that behaviour of the relative being the nolrth tile appears to be the current behaviour
23:03:59 <win7frog> keoz, ok. try to calculate how many copies of TTD and FishTTD (together) were sold.
23:04:17 <peter1138> Rubidium, what's the other half? :s
23:04:23 <keoz> I don't see the relation ?
23:04:55 <Rubidium> does strdup of a strlen()==20 string fail in the same way?
23:05:08 <Rubidium> (or would strdup allocate something boundary aligned?)
23:05:15 <win7frog> Now apply the basic modifier of linux/bsd's share (percentage).
23:06:13 * Rubidium wonders what dosbox has to do with "unix" users
23:07:28 <win7frog> db is a cross-platform emulator in which the unix/linux users might try to play ttd before coming to the open version
23:08:03 <peter1138> oh, and a single malloc(21) is fine, of course :s
23:08:21 <Rubidium> win7frog: so I wouldn't need it on (almost) any other recent OS... like Windows since roughly version 5.0
23:09:06 <keoz> weel, time to sleep. Good night
23:09:24 <win7frog> on Windows NT 6.x, you need dosbox for any fullscreen dos game
23:15:55 <Rubidium> more "stupid" stats: over the 561 days of bananas 7.2 million NewGRFs with a total size of almost 1.3 TiB downloaded
23:17:00 <Rubidium> total of 14.6 million bananas downloads at almost 5.8 TiB
23:18:12 <win7frog> yaaaay, it's hard to keep up to date
23:18:40 <win7frog> I updated newgrf's some 12 hrs ago, and there are new ones... wtf
23:19:51 <win7frog> I bet, at one point, bananas will stop accepting uploads. And only at that day, the updating would end
23:20:55 <win7frog> you know, it's like if WOW updated every 2 days
23:21:48 <Rubidium> and how many of these NewGRFs have you actually used?
23:22:19 <win7frog> I try to keep up to date just because of game servers I might join
23:22:46 <Yexo> if a server uses some newgrfs you can download them just before you want to join
23:22:55 <Yexo> and only download the ones you need
23:24:34 <Rubidium> Yexo: luckily I can be assured that he hasn't downloaded all NewGRFs from bananas :)
23:24:40 <chakravanti> how do i transfer stuff from say a dock to a train station?
23:25:22 <Rubidium> they have to be the same station for that to happen
23:25:25 <Yexo> chakravanti: make sure the dock and train station are the same station (ie only one station label) and then use transfer orders
23:25:35 <Lakie> Rubidium, when you said it tries to read bytes pass the end, is this because of a malformed chunk or could it be to do with checksum at the end being wrong (I read stock TTD doesn't alwyas get it right)?
23:25:57 <Lakie> (Because I get the impression from the initial post it comes from stock TTD)
23:26:08 <Yexo> chakravanti: for transfer orders, see the wiki
23:26:20 <Yexo> to make sure the dock and train station are "one station" build them next to eachother
23:26:29 <Yexo> or hold ctrl while you build the second station part
23:28:03 <Rubidium> Lakie: it means that OpenTTD expected more bytes to exist in that (pseudo) sprite
23:28:03 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
23:28:48 <Lakie> But I imagine its the same principle
23:29:15 <Rubidium> oh, that one.. don't know what exactly happened there; just that it expected there to be more bytes than there actually were which could be a malformed chunk, but could be something else
23:29:28 <Rubidium> the checksum isn't checked IIRC
23:29:51 <Mazur> Thag's what checksums are for.
23:30:12 <Lakie> I suppose if its from a really old version of ttdpatch it could have been icorrectly saved or something
23:30:47 <Yexo> from what I've understood it was originally a ttd savegame, loaded one time in ttdpatch but later again in ttd
23:30:53 <Yexo> maybe ttd messed up the ttdpatch chunks?
23:31:34 * Lakie would have imagined those would be just dropped on load though
23:32:11 <Rubidium> isn't a TTD savegame of fixed size?
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23:32:48 <Rubidium> maybe it loads fixed size + a few bytes because that's conventient for some reason and then writes that back
23:32:50 <TruePikachu> Quick question: Are towns able to terraform?
23:32:50 <Yexo> IIRC yes, but not 100% sure
23:33:10 <Yexo> ^^ was for Rubidium, not TruePikachu
23:33:24 <TruePikachu> Less than 1 sec after I wrote
23:33:36 <Lakie> Looks that way from the saved game internals thingy
23:34:28 <TruePikachu> It looks like, from my current game, towns are able to terraform
23:35:06 <TruePikachu> Dretown, pop. 46110, looks like it undid some of my careful terraforming
23:36:08 <TruePikachu> From the perspective of the code, what causes a town to terraform?
23:36:45 <Lakie> I think towns usually teraform to expand / build roads?
23:37:05 <TruePikachu> Well, it looks like they do it to annoy transport companies as well...
23:37:12 <win7frog> Am I allowed to carry content_download with only opengfx in it, an empty cfg and a game installer on a pendrive?
23:37:27 <TruePikachu> ^^^ I do, so I'd say yes
23:37:42 <Rubidium> win7frog: you'll have to check the licenses for that
23:38:09 <TruePikachu> ^^ Well, not the installer or empty cfg, but the installed game and a full cfg
23:38:37 * TruePikachu keeps the license files not individually, but index through an XML file to save space
23:39:02 <TruePikachu> Lots of wasted space with 10+ copies of the GPL
23:39:30 * TruePikachu hates FAT32, especially when it isn't compressed
23:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> <TruePikachu> From the perspective of the code, what causes a town to terraform? <-- on trying to build a road or house, it might terraform to increase the chance of success
23:40:38 <TruePikachu> Eddi|zuHause: Okay. Also, what is the limit to the size of a city?
23:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no such limit
23:40:56 <TruePikachu> What is the current record?
23:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> in a real game, i know of ~3 million
23:41:27 <Eddi|zuHause> although that might depend on used newgrfs
23:41:42 <Eddi|zuHause> in the scenario editor, you may go higher
23:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but the town will quickly collapse
23:42:04 <TruePikachu> Okay, so I am not very close...at relativly just under 50k
23:42:15 <Rubidium> @calc 2046*2046/16*9*255
23:42:15 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 600446013.75
23:42:34 <TruePikachu> Lol, 3/4 of a person
23:42:37 <Rubidium> minus a bit of rounding
23:42:38 <win7frog> well, an empty cfg can be used to ensure portability, or just not to footprint into userdir
23:42:49 <TruePikachu> Are you sure it's 2046 and not 2048?
23:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there's an unusable border tile at each edge
23:43:10 <Yexo> there are 1 invisible row of tiles on all sides
23:44:10 <Rubidium> hmm... bit of road tweaking makes it much better
23:44:14 <Rubidium> @calc 2046*2046/16*12*255
23:44:25 <TruePikachu> Okay, so 2046*2046 is tile space, the over 16 is what?, the over 9 is what? and the over 255 is what?
23:44:40 <Rubidium> minus a bit for rounding and a few extra required road tiles
23:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> only the 16 is divided, all others are multiplications
23:45:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there are no parentheses...
23:45:32 <TruePikachu> So the /16 is what? *9 is what? and *16 is what?
23:45:53 <win7frog> those are / to the main 2046*2
23:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no, they are not
23:46:24 * TruePikachu knows that 2046/16 != 2
23:46:42 <Yexo> 16 / 9 is for the 3x3 grid, 9 house tiles out of every 16 tiles
23:46:47 * TruePikachu does programming too (just not in C/C++)
23:48:20 <Eddi|zuHause> technically, it's a 4x4 grid :)
23:48:35 <TruePikachu> The *255 is max pop per house tile?
23:49:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20294 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3996](r20281): 'break' got in wrong position.
23:49:57 <Rubidium> and now he still doesn't know what the 12 means!
23:50:12 <Rubidium> but for next time... 0.75 billion :)
23:50:27 <Rubidium> then they'll have something to aim for and fail to achieve
23:53:14 <Eddi|zuHause> did anyone catch the bit where he uses XML "to save space"? :p
23:54:30 <win7frog> so? am I allowed to distribute OTTD barebone?
23:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, as long as you comply to the conditions in the license
23:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but you should know that a) "carrying around on a stick" does not constitute "distributing", and b) each grf has its separate license, which may have varying terms on distributions
23:57:38 <Rubidium> which brings you back to the answer I've given 20 minutes ago...
23:58:16 <win7frog> well, all docs are in place, it's just like the zip download of the binary, with content_download and all it's subfolders present, opengfx tar in content_download\data, and an empty cfg in the same folder as the exe
23:59:26 <win7frog> so it's "bare bone version"
23:59:29 <Yexo> win7frog: basically as long as you're only going to use that stick for yourself you can do whatever you want
continue to next day ⏵