IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-07-18
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00:02:07 <fjb> True IT experts can fix all problems on their own.
00:02:35 <Zuu> They just change the assembler code and then things work perfectly well again.
00:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: that certainly is silly
00:03:54 <fjb> But may be we should tell him.
00:05:07 <Zuu> Well he's 57 and I've met old guys before that think they are IT experts while they really has a hard time keeping up with the new stuff.
00:05:17 <Zuu> Anyways, I need sleep. Good night
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06:20:31 <KC2RGZ> Don't ask to ask, just ask? ok here goes
06:20:48 <KC2RGZ> I'm having a pretty decent problem with traffic jams in my game
06:21:03 <KC2RGZ> could someone take a look at the savegame and tell me all the ways I screwed it up? :)
06:22:27 <KC2RGZ> would that someone be you or are you just chatting?
06:23:07 <Rubidium> only if I'm able to load the savegame you're talking about
06:24:16 <KC2RGZ> I'm uploading it now, its from openttd 1.0.1
06:24:52 <ccfreak2k> KC2RGZ, ever heard K6MTT?
06:25:14 <KC2RGZ> it sounds familiar, but I don't recall distinctly
06:25:24 <ccfreak2k> That's my father's callsign.
06:25:30 <ccfreak2k> I don't have my own license yet.
06:25:51 <KC2RGZ> it does sound familiar, I may have made a contest contact with him under my stations call sign (K2CC)
06:27:27 <KC2RGZ> the traffic jam is just below Shornwell
06:27:39 <KC2RGZ> Trains 3, 8, 5 and 9 are amongst the stuck
06:27:51 <ccfreak2k> Are 90 degree turns disabled?
06:28:15 <Rubidium> basically you placed the path signals too close to eachother there, so the place the trains are waiting aren't "safe"
06:29:39 <KC2RGZ> ccfreak2k I don't actually know... how do I check that?
06:29:57 <KC2RGZ> and Rubidium, should I just space them out more or am I using the wrong signal type for this application?
06:31:58 <Rubidium> hmm, putting more space between signals probably isn't going to cut it (only make it less likely)
06:32:19 <Rubidium> although... now I've dejammed the junction I can see what's going on :)
06:32:44 <ccfreak2k> Are these PBS signals?
06:33:54 <Rubidium> basically you've got "join before split" in your junctions
06:34:24 <Rubidium> and that means that trains are interfering a lot with eachother
06:36:22 <Rubidium> basically the trains from the south east going to the north east are interfering with all trains except those going from north east to south east
06:36:51 <Rubidium> whereas in an ideal situation it would only interfere with the trans going north east
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06:37:30 <KC2RGZ> hmm, I think I see what you mean
06:37:57 <Rubidium> this layout is actually worse than a simple cloverleaf junction
06:37:58 <KC2RGZ> I'm just curious, how did you unjam it? also, can you explain to me how I might fix this, or point me in the direction of some awesome documentation on this type of problem?
06:39:12 <Rubidium> you can force a train to pass a signal at danger; then stop it just before it runs into the next train. The trains after that will then, usually clear up
06:39:29 <Rubidium> you might want to start with stopping all trains that haven't entered the junction yet though
06:40:32 <Rubidium> and, the south-east<->north-west connection is better than the clover leaf, but it gets kinda screwed by the south-west<->north-east part
06:42:42 <Rubidium> because that doesn't have "join before split"
06:44:07 <KC2RGZ> join before split meaning what exactly? (forgive the stupid questions)
06:45:08 <Rubidium> you know what a join is and what a split it?
06:46:14 <planetmaker> join: two directions merged to a common one
06:46:30 <planetmaker> split: one direction diverging towards two different targets
06:46:30 <Rubidium> a join is where two tracks are meeting eachother (are merged), a split is the oppositive
06:47:27 <planetmaker> split before join means for junctions: for each track first split it into the two or three directions trains could possibly go
06:47:58 <planetmaker> then only merge it with trains coming from other directions which then want to go where that track leads
06:48:49 <planetmaker> in other words: make paths of trains with different destinations share as little track as possible on a junction
06:50:38 <KC2RGZ> I think I understand, but I'm having trouble visualizing it
06:52:57 <planetmaker> might be a bit spacy as I (also) designed it for speed
06:55:23 <Rubidium> (signal placing can still be improved though)
06:56:27 <KC2RGZ> I will definitely take that in to consideration then
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08:20:47 <andythenorth> I could patch my openttd so food is needed for town growth in all climates
08:20:58 <andythenorth> that would make the game more playable for me
08:21:13 <andythenorth> but it doesn't do anything for other people :P
08:24:13 <Sir_Nigel> Perhaps it might be better received if providing food accelerated town/city growth ?
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11:53:29 <welshdragon> ajnyone know where i can find 'invisible engines grf'?
11:54:09 <frosch123> iirc there was at least one of those on grfcrawler
11:55:03 <Terkhen> wasn't that called logic train in bananas?
11:55:43 <Zuu> Logic train is not that. Logic train is a train engine with a GRF parameter to set its max speed.
11:56:11 <welshdragon> frosch123: meh, can't find it on grfcrawler
11:56:13 <Zuu> To be used to build logic gates.
11:56:35 <Wolf01> invisible engines are those which are suitable for shunting and when stopped they are invisible :)
11:57:25 <frosch123> or are you searching for a specific grf? i.e. there are multiple grfs providing such engines
11:57:49 <welshdragon> nope, i just want that
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12:36:39 <Fixer> Hello, is there latest translations included in 1.0.3 rc?
12:37:45 <frosch123> as far as the strings still match, yes
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13:26:19 <Jolteon> Hai. I have a really weird issue with 1.0.3. For some reason, iTunes refuses to operate at the same time as OpenTTD does :|
13:26:47 <Jolteon> Was wondering if anyone knows anything about it? O.o
13:27:31 <Jolteon> iTunes exits with the generic "iTunes has encountered a problem and needs to close" :|
13:30:19 <Alberth> I don't know iTunes, but from its name, it could be that they are fighting over the sound card
13:31:10 <Alberth> you could try running openttd without sounds to check it
13:31:44 <Jolteon> Surely more than one thing can use the soundcard at once though? O.o
13:32:29 <Alberth> does the order of starting make a difference?
13:44:04 <FauxFaux> Probably Windows, from the erorr.
13:52:01 <Jolteon> Anyone else got iTunes and OpenTTD 1.0.3 RC1 to see if it also causes iTunes to crash out?
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14:05:22 <Fixer> frosch123: in simple words, RCs got updated translations? :-)
14:28:14 <Zuu> Yes, that's in the changelog
14:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> civ is so cruel...
14:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> one turn before i'm done with pyramids, the others get a great engineer!
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15:10:29 * Rubidium wonders whether Fixer meant the 16 Korean strings that are still pending in WT3 :)
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16:46:08 <__ln__> Terkhen: what's the equivalent of amazon.de/.fr for Spain?
16:46:53 <Terkhen> that's what I use anyways
16:47:46 <__ln__> i see. what about for e.g. books in spanish?
16:48:43 <Zuu> I guess they have their own sites/companies as well
16:49:06 <__ln__> yes, it doesn't need to be amazon
16:50:01 <Terkhen> there aren't many spanish sites selling things in the internet... and they are usually small
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17:24:08 <frosch123> wanted to tell you that i reverted the thingie with TE of trains from the newgrf wiki
17:25:36 <frosch123> i guess you stumbled over "Any engine defined which is not in the original range listed below will have no default properties". but the default engines all have a default TE
17:26:14 <andythenorth> although it didn't at the time
17:27:08 <frosch123> well, if they do not have a default TE, it would be a bug :) nothing to document
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17:45:42 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20180 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
17:45:42 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:42 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: chuvash - 65 changes by mefisteron
17:45:42 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: korean - 16 changes by junho2813
17:45:42 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: portuguese - 11 changes by SupSuper
17:45:44 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 3 changes by Madvin
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18:11:03 * CheatZilla is a typical malicious moron gamer. Is OTTD portable?
18:11:47 <CheatZilla> I mean, playing off a thumb/pen drive.
18:13:14 <andythenorth> Pikka: I was thinking about a FIRS 'economy' specific to UKRS
18:13:56 <andythenorth> I had three hours driving across the UK and not much else to entertain me :)
18:14:05 <CheatZilla> it seems to work, but I cheated the game a bit - I didn't properly install the graphics out of a 7z, I just threw the 7z into N:\OpenTTD\content downloads\data
18:14:33 <CheatZilla> content_downloads *
18:14:41 <andythenorth> Pikka: would add a china clay cargo, a clay mine, and make the paper mill accept china clay
18:14:56 <andythenorth> would also remove bauxite mine and substitute some kind of dock / import facility
18:15:27 <andythenorth> like or no like?
18:15:53 <Alberth> CheatZilla: sure that works, I have ~/.openttd/content_download/data/OpenGFX.0.2.1.tar at my linux system
18:16:35 * andythenorth ponders also a British English translation for FIRS
18:17:03 <CheatZilla> also, why does the game load faster with legacy gfx/sfx?
18:18:49 <Pikka> andy: I tend to use my own grfs, so I don't really have an opinion :)
18:18:59 <Alberth> my OpenGFX is somewhere twice as big as the legacy stuff
18:19:23 <Pikka> I've never used FIRS... other people seem to like it though so I'm sure a britishish version would be appreciated
18:19:33 <Alberth> also "7z" means a .zip file? that needs unpacking first
18:20:08 <Alberth> CheatZilla: but of course you never bother to shutdown OpenTTD, do you :p
18:20:20 * andythenorth ponders other UK industries / cargos
18:21:26 * andythenorth ponders an Australian economy
18:21:45 <andythenorth> exports coal, iron ore, bauxite, wool, sheep, and soap operas
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18:21:55 <andythenorth> and also diminutive entertainers
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18:22:12 <andythenorth> imports UK gap year students and doctors
18:23:44 <Pikka> that was the diminutive entertainer
18:24:10 <Pikka> I missed the "australia" bit :)
18:25:28 <andythenorth> does australia import/export Pikkas?
18:28:07 * Pikka was made in Loughborough, like a Class 47.
18:31:05 * andythenorth was made near there. ish
18:47:18 * Pikka is abandoning the default random production system altogether for TaI... so many industry schemes to work out...
18:47:34 <andythenorth> how would it have worked?
18:48:02 <Pikka> how would what have worked?
18:48:30 <Pikka> I want mines and other primary industries to produce less in early years and more in later... so I have to use the production callback for all of 'em... :)
18:49:13 <Pikka> also, it means I can litter the landscape with derelict mines instead of them magically disappearing when mined out ;)
18:50:11 <Pikka> unsmart AIs may get confused by this, however :)
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18:52:39 * andythenorth re-considers industry closure in a more...evil direction
18:53:07 <Celestar> can someone with experience about cargodist tell me why I have that many passengers that go to "any station"?
18:54:02 <SpComb> Celestar: the MCF hasn't yet gotten up to speed
18:54:21 <Celestar> I haven't changed the network in ... half a game year.
18:54:42 <Celestar> well maybe it's because it's a station with .. loads of backlog >P
18:54:49 <andythenorth> Pikka: there are about 5 main industry production templates in FIRS.... single hardest thing to figure out :P
18:55:34 <andythenorth> especially if you try and support freaking insane coop game cargo transport levels cleanly :P
18:56:04 <Celestar> hm or my settings are wrong
18:56:16 <Celestar> because some passengers just converted themselves into "any station" ones O_o
18:56:26 <SpComb> are your links massively overloaded?
18:56:36 <Celestar> two are somewhat overloaded.
18:56:49 <SpComb> "somewhat overloaded" sounds like the normal state
18:58:54 <Celestar> but yeah if overloading links can cause it, that will be the reason
18:59:23 <SpComb> well, I didn't claim that
19:00:16 <SpComb> not sure if the link state affects the demand function
19:02:42 <Jolteon> Hmmmmm. I still can't get iTunes and OpenTTD to co-operate.
19:02:59 <Jolteon> iTunes crashes out as soon as OpenTTD launches with the generic iTunes has encountered a problem and needs to close...
19:03:21 <Jolteon> Although it continues playing music until you hit the button to remove the message and kill the process, so its not /that/ big of a problem.
19:03:29 <Celestar> iTunes is not made for cooperation
19:03:34 <Celestar> iTunes is da suckage
19:03:55 <Jolteon> Well, i've checked it with all other games, and it runs fine in the background playing music with them running
19:04:06 <Jolteon> just something about OpenTTD makes it crash out as soon as it launches :\
19:05:04 <Jolteon> someone earlier said it might be something to do with them fighting over the soundcard, or somethign :\
19:05:15 <Wolf01> Pikka, is your nick coming from Douglas Adams tales?
19:09:15 <andythenorth> well he's not a paranoid android
19:10:50 <Pikka> I don't use the name for anything else any more
19:11:09 <Pikka> I thought about changing it the last couple of times owen's done a forum name change
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20:10:54 <Celestar> there any manual/wiki about cargodist?
20:11:00 <Celestar> I am beginning to like it :P
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20:12:54 <Rubidium> Celestar: if there is something it's likely on openttd's wiki
20:13:10 <Alberth> somewhere in development iirc
20:15:12 <Rubidium> Jolteon: does it crash with -snull ?
20:15:32 <Jolteon> how do I run parameters like that again?
20:15:56 <Rubidium> from the command prompt or by adding it in the shortcut
20:17:54 <Rubidium> and with -snull -mnull ?
20:18:09 <Jolteon> Ignore the weird colors of OpenTTD, prnt scr fails with it for some reason
20:18:13 <Jolteon> it does appear normally to me
20:19:43 <Jolteon> Rubidium: same thing with both -snull and -mnull, iTunes also crashes if its playing music or not, i just noticed.
20:19:59 <Jolteon> but i've been using it all today fine, and with other games, so its definately something in OpenTTD that is causing it :\
20:20:15 <Rubidium> oh... and with -b32bpp-simple ?
20:20:55 <Jolteon> with just that, or still with -snull / -nmull?
20:21:21 <Rubidium> does OpenTTD go fullscreen by any chance?
20:21:40 <Jolteon> "Failed to select requested blitter <blablablabla> does it exist?"
20:21:50 <Jolteon> That switch won't work, Rubidium.
20:22:06 <Rubidium> you probably mistyped it
20:22:18 <Jolteon> ah, i did. missed off the final e.
20:22:58 <Jolteon> Rubidium: iTunes is running normally still, and OpenTTD has launched and gone fullscreen like before.
20:23:12 <Jolteon> It /appears/ whatever that did, stopped iTunes having a heart attack at the same time.
20:23:31 <Rubidium> okay, now stop OpenTTD and keep iTunes open
20:23:40 <michi_cc> Apple software is obviously too modern for 265 colours :)
20:23:44 <Wolf01> <Rubidium> bbp vs bpp reminded me: "q^_^p <- how did you do that reversed q?"
20:24:07 <Jolteon> Rubidium: done. iTunes is still co-operating and running, and playing the song.
20:24:14 <Rubidium> and then in the screen settings select 256 colours (instead of 16 million colours)
20:24:23 <Rubidium> or 8 bits vs 24/32 bits
20:25:03 <Rubidium> in any case... it really looks like iTunes can't handle a screen supporting only 256 colours
20:25:19 <Rubidium> but then... that's Apple, they've been doing the same trick on Apple as well
20:25:26 <Jolteon> yep, thats recrashed iTunes again.
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20:25:38 <Rubidium> s/on Apple/with Mac OS X/
20:25:43 <Jolteon> Obviously yeah, iTunes doesn't like 256 only :\
20:26:20 <Rubidium> so 2 options: don't use full screen, or keep using the 32bpp blitter
20:26:39 <Jolteon> Will using the 32bpp blitter cause any issues to openTTD, or anything else like old saved games, or?
20:27:04 <Rubidium> if you want to keep animation of water and such you need to use the 32bpp-anim blitter, otherwise use 32bpp-optimized
20:27:44 <Jolteon> okay, thanks Rubidium \o/
20:28:03 <Rubidium> Jolteon: yes, known issues are that "colour animation" is slower/might not work 100%. Besides that it's only on the output end of OpenTTD and as such does not affect the game's internal behaviour (i.e. savegames, network and the likes)
20:28:15 <Rubidium> you can configure the blitter in openttd.cfg as well
20:28:36 <Jolteon> Oki, cheers. Although I might just see if I can setup WinAmp or something to run instead of iTunes :\
20:30:16 <Jolteon> but yay, openttd is running smoothly and itunes is still working \o/, so this is good until I can find something better \o/
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20:31:33 <Rubidium> oh, depending on video card and driver 32bpp might be slower
20:31:53 <Jolteon> 9500GT, latest driver.
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21:43:00 <glx> oh apple still writes nice applications ;)
21:45:21 <Rubidium> glx: I've got the feeling that the quality at Apple is inversely proportional to the amount of sold units
21:46:05 <glx> anyway it's an apple soft on windows, so it may be something to force people to switch to mac
21:49:10 <Rubidium> talking about Apple... I'm still not sure what to do about Apple blatantly violating GPL
21:49:37 <Rubidium> because the only thing Apple will do is remove OpenTTD again from the app store and we'll get into that shit storm again
21:50:16 <Rubidium> but then, I haven't heard what zodttd's take is on that
21:52:56 <Rubidium> thanks for writing it
21:53:40 <Vadtec> greetings all, im back from a road trip, after messing with my game that i was having issues with the servicing interval using percents, it basically came down to the depot was outside the radius that the train was looking for depots in, once i added one closer to each station, it worked just fine (it also worked when i used forced orders)
21:55:45 <__ln__> Jolteon: was your OTTD in window or fullscreen?
21:55:51 <Nite_Owl> Depot order are the way to go.
21:56:02 <__ln__> does it crash in a window?
21:56:12 <__ln__> or rather, does itunes crash ... etc
21:56:13 <Jolteon> I'll check that for you let me remove the parameter
21:57:24 <Jolteon> No, it doesn't crash when windowed, i'll edit that into the wiki entry for you
21:58:13 <__ln__> i already knew the fullscreen implementation is Evil, but now we have another proof of it.
21:59:18 <Jolteon> Edited the page saying you can just run it windowed instead too.
21:59:48 <glx> __ln__: but a normal app doesn't crash when another goes in full screen
22:00:09 <Jolteon> nah, thats just iTunes being slighly bleh about 256 colors though, no fault of OpenTTD right?
22:00:26 <Rubidium> glx: but playing music requires at least 16 million colours
22:00:43 <glx> there's no 256 color mode on mac ;)
22:00:46 <Rubidium> Jolteon: it's 100% iTunes being broken
22:00:46 <__ln__> the same implementation could be used for fullscreen that is used for windowed mode now. that would also enable apple-tabing in and out of OTTD while playing.
22:00:53 <Jolteon> Rubidium: Yeah, i figured :P
22:01:31 <Jolteon> anyway, i'm going to disappear off to bed, glad I could be of some assistance, and thank you for helping me in the first place \o/
22:07:28 <__ln__> let me stress that changing the fullscreen implementation to a non-evil one is not only theoretically possible, but has actually been done in a patch.
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