IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-07-16
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00:09:27 <Zuu> Pikka: So then you have to decide if writing a crawler program is creative work or not
00:10:14 <Zuu> But since software is copyrightable, I guess it is creative work.
00:11:20 <Zuu> Hmm actually, the "you may not compete with google" agreement do not exist in the terms for Gmail. However it does exist for Google Maps API.
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00:54:53 <Pikka> Zuu: the copyright status of the program and the copyright status of the output of the program are not necessarily the same. :) bye for now!
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08:20:55 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20160 /trunk/ (3 files in 3 dirs): -Merge: changelog updates from the 1.0 branch
08:21:47 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20161 /branches/1.0/ (changelog.txt known-bugs.txt readme.txt): [1.0] -Backport from trunk: documentation (known bugs/readme) updates
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08:27:27 <Rubidium> gooooooooood morning "neighbour"
08:27:55 <Celestar> there are about 5 states in between
08:29:02 <Rubidium> what? You aren't in Germany?
08:30:20 <Rubidium> even then... celestially speaking we'd be living in the same place
08:31:04 * Rubidium wonders whether to laugh or cry about openSUSE's release announcement
08:31:28 <Celestar> what's the release annoucement_
08:31:48 <Rubidium> though especially the "Users can expect to see improved hardware support with the 2.6.34 Linux kernel and updated graphics drivers." part
08:32:19 <Celestar> updated graphics drivers
08:32:34 <Rubidium> especially with AMD's efforts to remove support for their older video cards in their updated graphics drivers
08:32:37 <Celestar> wtb [working AT?Md drivers]
08:32:51 <Celestar> well the open source radeon driver is pretty good
08:33:06 <Rubidium> Celestar: it wasn't about 2 months ago
08:34:02 <Celestar> but not matter what I do, I can't properly playback 1080i videos
08:34:27 <Rubidium> have you tried mplayer -cache 1048576 <video file> ?
08:35:06 <Rubidium> so EXA doesn't work as it should?!?
08:35:30 <Rubidium> for me the open source driver causes the screen to annoyingly flicker
08:35:40 <Celestar> kaffeine is managing about 12-15 fps
08:36:24 <Rubidium> Celestar: EXA is a graphics acceleration architecture of the X.Org Server (see also X Window System) designed to replace XAA [1] (the XFree86 Acceleration Architecture) and to make the XRender extension more usable,
08:36:45 <Celestar> and you check whether this works how?
08:37:11 <Celestar> it's nice to know that #openttd is still more helpful than #ubuntu, #opensuse, #amd, #gnome and #mplayer combined ><
08:37:48 <Rubidium> what does xvinfo tell you?
08:39:08 <Celestar> concerning EXA? nothing
08:40:29 <Rubidium> nah, just in general, as "xv" is something for faster videoplayback (or so)
08:40:52 <Rubidium> I can't remember what it shows when there is no xv, as thus videoplayback will be horrible
08:41:07 <Celestar> I play almost everything fine
08:41:11 <Celestar> afaik even 1080p videos
08:41:17 <Rubidium> not sure whether it has anything to do with speed of playback or inability of scaling
08:41:17 <Celestar> only 1080i make issues
08:42:31 <Rubidium> hmm, let me find a 1080i piece of video to test
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08:49:51 <Celestar> I have no 1080p video here
08:56:24 <Celestar> yep 1080p plays fine
08:57:12 <Celestar> cpu load way below 100% on a single core.
08:57:16 <Celestar> dunno what's wrong with 1080i
08:57:21 <Celestar> well gotta transcode a lot of shit
08:59:58 <planetmaker> hm... shouldn't we rename the 'TTDPatch flags' to something more suitable?
09:00:12 <planetmaker> Same reason as the patch settings were renamed to adv. settings?
09:00:33 <planetmaker> like "global flags" or alike?
09:01:54 <Rubidium> what's more suitable than the name from the specification?
09:02:38 <Celestar> maybe I should try a game of cargodist
09:03:21 <Rubidium> 1080i seems to work fine with AMD's drivers
09:03:26 <Celestar> hm. is DBSet XL downloadable?
09:03:42 <Celestar> Rubidium: what are you using as backend? gstreamer? mplayer?
09:03:45 <Rubidium> if you know where to find it
09:03:51 <planetmaker> Rubidium: I know that link well. But still it doesn't make sense in an OpenTTD context
09:04:19 <Rubidium> and it's not quite the backend of mplayer as I'm using just mplayer from the console, not some crap around it
09:04:28 <Celestar> Rubidium: and where would that be?
09:04:29 <planetmaker> call them OpenTTD flags and it'd make sense
09:04:44 <Celestar> grfcrawler is making issues
09:04:55 <Rubidium> planetmaker: WHO would be using the flags?
09:05:22 <Rubidium> would ANY "just playing" user encounter them, besides from seeing them in the changelog
09:05:50 <Rubidium> planetmaker: so better keep it named as it is instead of trying to rename it and make it only more unclear what is meant
09:06:09 <Rubidium> hell, OpenTTD even says it has a particular TTDPatch version
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09:06:52 <planetmaker> TTDPatch flags is not very descriptive
09:06:54 <Rubidium> hmm... download an almost 1 GB 1080i sample and it doesn't even work :(
09:07:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and OpenTTD flags is?
09:07:14 <planetmaker> so it's already confusing as it is. And that's why I proposed 'global flags'
09:08:15 <Rubidium> well, if you want its name changed... talk to the NewGRF community about it :)
09:08:53 <Rubidium> I'm not sure how much they fancy renaming stuff
09:16:10 <Celestar> is there any kind of "recommended AI"
09:16:38 <Rubidium> with cargodist? I'm not sure whether any will manage
09:17:24 <SpComb> Celestar: ottdcoop grf pack has DBSetXL
09:18:14 * SpComb pesters some ottdcoop people to update it
09:18:32 <planetmaker> the grfpack? yeah
09:18:52 <planetmaker> the update will be to remove stuff
09:19:03 <planetmaker> so the urgency is very low
09:19:03 <Celestar> is there still the Urban Renewal Kit somehwere?
09:19:12 <planetmaker> Celestar: on bannas?
09:19:16 <SpComb> e.g. germanrv could do with an update, iirc
09:19:33 <planetmaker> SpComb: could. But then he could upload to bananas.
09:19:34 <Celestar> planetmaker: what's your favourite town set? default?
09:19:41 <planetmaker> Celestar: swedish
09:20:08 <planetmaker> SpComb and as such we won't update it.
09:20:17 * Celestar hopes for env support to fix fucking clearcase :S
09:20:21 <SpComb> bananas killed the grf packs
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09:20:35 <planetmaker> SpComb: yes, it did. But that's no hurt
09:21:01 <planetmaker> that was the plan actually
09:21:49 <BCMM> What is the "other" in the finances window?
09:22:05 <Celestar> everything that doesn't fit anywhere else? :P
09:22:24 <planetmaker> trees. bribes,...
09:23:01 <Celestar> building industries too
09:23:35 * Celestar likes the original music set :D
09:24:50 <Rubidium> SpComb: but it's likely that more people are now using NewGRFs and the likes because of bananas
09:24:54 <fonsinchen> admiral does fairly OK with cargodist. Sometimes it crashes, though.
09:26:50 <Zuu> hmm, but isn't admiral ai (as most other ais) building point to point connections?
09:26:54 <BCMM> Zuu: that explains why it's the same every year for all companies
09:27:10 <Zuu> Ie no more than one destination is provided for cargo.
09:27:27 <BCMM> what are the conditions for bankruptcy?
09:27:58 <fonsinchen> it will build point to point, but sometimes it reuses stations, then you get some transfers
09:28:18 <BCMM> Zuu: balance, or including loans?
09:28:29 <BCMM> Zuu: i mean, one can avoid bankruptcy by borrowing?
09:28:35 <SpComb> does cd provide the AIs with info on the available destinations for cargo etc?
09:28:50 <Zuu> BCMM: Yes you can avoid bankruptcy by borrowing.
09:28:59 <fonsinchen> no, there is no AI API for cargodist, yet
09:30:26 <BCMM> it's slightly annoying, since i have four AIs that have basically no assets, very slowly losing money due to loans
09:30:32 <BCMM> and taking ages to disappear
09:30:49 <planetmaker> then kill the AIs
09:30:58 <planetmaker> in console: stop_ai #
09:31:07 <planetmaker> with # being the company number
09:31:20 <BCMM> Zuu: choochoo and admiral
09:31:36 <planetmaker> BCMM: but you have to give those AIs time to plan
09:31:46 <planetmaker> they sometimes take years to come up with stuff
09:32:02 <BCMM> planetmaker: they built stuff, i competed with them and they closed their services
09:32:12 <BCMM> planetmaker: now they are running out of money really slowly
09:32:17 <Zuu> You can open the AI Debug window to get an idea of the current state of them.
09:32:30 <planetmaker> be nice to them, don't compete unless they have a sound income ;-)
09:33:01 <Zuu> But in that case the are probably thinkning that they do not have enough money to invest at the moment.
09:33:07 <BCMM> by the way, is there a decent way to run a transfer service for cargoes like mail, passengers and valuables where you'll be returning with the same cargo?
09:33:20 <BCMM> e.g. passengers between an oilrig and an inland town
09:33:38 <BCMM> if you do transfer and full load, it just takes the passengers back where they came from
09:33:39 <Zuu> Apart from having two transfer-points
09:34:00 <Zuu> And have the vehicles from the oilrig go in a triangle
09:34:01 <BCMM> a somewhat annoying solution
09:34:22 <Zuu> The other solution is to use Cargodist
09:37:33 <Celestar> that may be a hertic question .. but .. is autorenew/autoreplace working? :P
09:38:11 <planetmaker> last times I used autoreplace it was doing its job
09:38:16 <planetmaker> I hardly need autoreplace, though
09:38:59 <Celestar> "you do it manually" :P
09:39:03 <oniik> good morning Slartibartfast
09:42:40 <oniik> planetmaker: not a big Douglas Adams fan?
09:43:45 <oniik> Slartibartfast is the name of the guy who makes planets in Hitchhikers
09:44:30 <oniik> so it was a reference to your nick.. nm
09:44:43 <planetmaker> yes. And I was not watching IRC window
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09:46:07 <planetmaker> but indeed I would not have recognized the name... too long ago I read it to remember all strange names there except arthur and marvin ;-)
09:47:17 <planetmaker> but the fjords really deserved the price ;-)
09:47:34 <oniik> indeed they did. im lucky in that I live in the country of those fjords
09:48:00 * planetmaker is happy to be there in a fortnight
09:55:07 <peter1138> how can i test if a pthread_t handle is valid?
09:59:19 <peter1138> hmm, a guard variable, i suppose.
10:01:17 <__ln__> the first time i see anyone using the word 'fortnight' on irc
10:02:58 <peter1138> also, are pthread mutexes slow?
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10:07:15 <BCMM> what is the right way to convert a whole rail network to maglev?
10:07:37 <BCMM> does one have to sell and manually recreate each train?
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10:08:59 <Markk> The tracks are convertablr, but not the trains.
10:09:05 <planetmaker> __ln__: a far too seldom used word given its beauty ;-)
10:09:37 <__ln__> yeah, it's a cool word :)
10:13:39 <Rubidium> 18:29 < ln> *fortnight
10:15:17 <__ln__> i exclude myself from the set of 'anyone'
10:17:57 <Rubidium> 21:03 < Celestar> peter1138: I'll be on the road from friday on for about a fortnight, I'd love to have most things done by then (= <- and there was a ln talking to Bjarni just before that
10:20:30 <peter1138> You keep logs for a long time, eh?
10:20:51 <Rubidium> just never bothered truncating them
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10:49:55 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 9 hours, 55 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Pikka> Zuu: the copyright status of the program and the copyright status of the output of the program are not necessarily the same. :) bye for now!
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11:52:47 <andythenorth> shall we make something today?
11:53:52 <welshdragon> andythenorth: want to help the UK Bus Set?
11:54:29 <andythenorth> what do you need help with?
11:54:55 <andythenorth> what do you have?
11:55:09 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 35 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
11:55:28 <welshdragon> andythenorth: a tracking table, that's about it...
11:56:18 <welshdragon> The only 'contrubutor' at prsent seems to be me
11:56:39 <andythenorth> welshdragon: no politics to slow you down then :)
11:56:43 <andythenorth> just get on and make the set
11:56:51 <andythenorth> all buses look the same to me anyway
11:57:01 <andythenorth> it's just a block of cheese with four wheel
12:01:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: know much about vehicle movement code? I am coding a road-rail vehicle.
12:01:43 <andythenorth> suspect that a *true* road-rail vehicle will never happen
12:02:00 <andythenorth> what if road types and rail types were just road-rail types?
12:02:08 <andythenorth> peter1138: ^ stupid idea, right?
12:02:46 <andythenorth> no street running trackage then :P
12:02:49 <planetmaker> <welshdragon> The only 'contrubutor' at prsent seems to be me <-- then you could go like andy did initially with fish:
12:03:02 <planetmaker> use block graphics only. But implement the code already
12:03:11 <andythenorth> welshdragon: not a bad route
12:03:23 <welshdragon> planetmaker: yeah, We'll do that
12:03:26 <andythenorth> is the bus thing a gameplay set, or eye candy?
12:03:37 <planetmaker> graphics is then something you'll get. Or you could use others and then call it <whatever busses>
12:04:00 <andythenorth> welshdragon: in that case do the block graphics. You can balance the set before wasting pixels on vehicles that you end up deleting
12:04:32 <planetmaker> yep. Just make the blocks differently coloured. If you like using re-colour sprites. Then you have learnt how to use that, too ;-)
12:05:47 <welshdragon> any idea how many sprites zephyris used in eGRVTS on the _ ?
12:05:55 <welshdragon> (min/average/max)
12:06:39 <welshdragon> the flat facing views, not the diagonals
12:06:51 <andythenorth> 2 per vehicle I would assume
12:07:37 <welshdragon> as that's the scale being used by the set
12:07:37 <andythenorth> decomp and have a look (I'm looking now though)
12:07:52 <andythenorth> FWIW, when I get around to BANDIT it will be smaller
12:08:10 <andythenorth> if you use eGRVTS you are out of scale with UKRS, and *way* out of scale with UKRS 2
12:08:33 <andythenorth> can't open eGRVTS pcx
12:09:04 <welshdragon> but at the smaller scales you'd not be able to distinguish buses that have similar bodies
12:09:16 <andythenorth> such is life in pixels
12:09:42 <andythenorth> trust me, you'll end up being thankful for such shortcuts :)
12:09:54 <andythenorth> bus A and bus B can then look the same, which cuts drawing by 50%
12:10:21 * andythenorth contemplates learning to code rail vehicles
12:10:55 <andythenorth> what happens if I code a vehicle for narrow gauge, and there's no narrow gauge?
12:11:04 <andythenorth> player gets a monorail / maglev vehicle?
12:13:29 <andythenorth> that would be fine by me
12:14:01 <andythenorth> is it irritating to have rail locomotives that have cargo capacity?
12:17:24 <planetmaker> <andythenorth> can't open eGRVTS pcx <-- the full pcx is part of OpenGFX repository
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12:45:58 <Noldo_> andythenorth: it depends, IMO locomotives with passenger capacity are ok unless the set is such that you'll end up using them for everything and not just passenger routes
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13:13:26 <peter1138> aw damn it, thread aborts too soon :(
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13:54:11 <BCMM> when the wiki says "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at five stations within town influence within a two month period", does it mean specifically rail, or any kind of service?
13:55:43 <BCMM> so a bus running around five stops within a town ought to cause the town to grow?
13:56:32 <planetmaker> it will even grow without (if town growth is enabled). But yes, it will then grow faster
14:01:39 <BCMM> about how fast would one expect that to work?
14:01:51 <Belugas> 7 is odd and 8 is even, right?
14:03:50 <Belugas> BCMM, what about "noticeably faster" ? :)
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14:18:46 <planetmaker> and 2 is a truely odd prime
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14:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm giving Shaka weapon technology to fight against my competitors... if that's not gonna backfire...
14:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it feels kinda like the taliban ;)
14:29:31 <BCMM> If part of an oil well is within a station's catchment, can the station receive all of the oil#?
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14:41:59 <planetmaker> lego - newgrf maybe?
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14:50:48 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I bought civilization IV complete edition when it went on sale two weeks ago... it feels similar to the original game :)
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14:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: try playing the original game afterwards... you go mad :p
14:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and Civ IV Complete has been available for ~10€ here for ages
14:53:26 <Terkhen> here I have never seen the complete pack... and each separated part was 10€ :/
14:53:43 <Terkhen> I finally bought it on steam
14:55:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not having enough health ressources...
14:55:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no sugar on the map, only one banana
14:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> and the only person with two spices won't trade it to me
14:56:19 <Terkhen> I still don't know the game at that level... I'm still playing at the second dificulty level
14:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> sugar, spices, banana and wine give health bonus with the grocier. health is needed for large cities
14:58:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and of those four, i have only wine
14:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> so i'm missing 3 health per city
14:58:30 <planetmaker> sounds healthy :-P
14:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should focus on medicine
14:59:49 <Terkhen> give them more wine, they'll forget about the other stuff
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15:05:35 <abez> So is openttd back in the app store? I went last night to a webpage on itunes that suggested it was. I must ask, why is it there? The App store terms of service for developers and for users violates the GPLv2 as far as I understand.
15:09:09 <Rubidium> IIRC it's GPLv2 that violates Apple's terms of service
15:10:49 <abez> I'm not sure what you mean.
15:11:28 <abez> Or is this a kind of argument analogous to if in physics, I hit you also hit me
15:12:58 <abez> Anyways I'm really surprised by the game communities lack of understanding about licensing and free software, they don't seem to understand that opensource is a gift that has terms to ensure everyone shares the same freedoms (at least with GPL et al.)
15:13:01 <Rubidium> Apple, by (re)distributing OpenTTD, implicitly complied with the GPLv2 license. If they do NOT want to comply with it, they should not distribute stuff under the GPLv2 license. They are aware that it is licensed under GPLv2.
15:13:40 <Rubidium> or at least they should be as I've had quite some conversations with them about the previous version not complying with GPLv2
15:13:57 <Lakie> In fairness a lot of people don't know much about lisencing.
15:14:23 <Rubidium> Lakie: then Apple should talk to their lawyers
15:14:36 <Lakie> Well, I assume they would
15:14:41 <abez> Rubidium: the FSF goes further to say it wouldn't matter if the source code was released, that section 6 of GPLv2 is still being infringed upon
15:14:45 <Lakie> I meant average end-users
15:14:56 <abez> Rubidium: but I don't have the dev agreement or the user agreement
15:15:11 <Rubidium> abez: neither have I
15:15:22 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as the FSF doesn't sue apple, there's nothing happening about this...
15:15:22 <abez> and section 6 is about how more restrictions are not allowed to be applied
15:15:51 <abez> Eddi|zuHause: anyone who committed code that was GPL'd can sue (with legitimate reasons)
15:16:22 <abez> Eddi|zuHause: I doubt the FSF has any property in openttd (but again I didn't look)
15:16:23 <Lakie> Apple has the money for a court case, I doubt most developers do
15:16:24 <Eddi|zuHause> abez: but do they have the means to pay the lawyers?
15:16:42 <abez> Eddi|zuHause: sure, so DMCA is cheaper
15:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that's precisely what the FSF is meant to do. you give them your rights, and they pay the lawyers
15:17:10 <abez> Eddi|zuHause: it is easier to submit a takedown rather than go through the process, but gpl-violations.org exists for a reason
15:17:28 <abez> Eddi|zuHause: in most cases they need to have your copyright
15:17:34 <abez> Eddi|zuHause: and they do want to see the GPL go to court
15:17:38 <abez> Eddi|zuHause: they enjoy that
15:18:00 <abez> I'm not associated with the FSF so all I can say is what I think they might do/like to do
15:18:43 <abez> Rubidium: so what's your opinion on this, do you think it should be in the app store under the current apple agreements you've heard about?
15:19:17 <Rubidium> abez: hearsay isn't something you can base a takedown notice on
15:20:48 <abez> Rubidium: hearsay? If they are violating your license and thus your copyright you have every right to tell them not to distribute
15:21:09 <abez> I don't really understand this hearsay part
15:21:17 <abez> is it because you lack most of the agreements?
15:21:40 <Rubidium> I lack *all* agreements
15:21:53 <abez> And you are the primary developer of openttd?
15:22:26 <abez> (btw it is a very good game and I had to delete it because it was so distracting)
15:22:48 <Rubidium> and I'm not sure whether I'm the (all time) primary developer
15:23:22 <abez> So openttd has many source code contributors
15:23:25 <planetmaker> all-time can be pretty long. Especially towards the end
15:23:27 <Belugas> yes you are, sir, and we love you for that!
15:24:26 <abez> Rubidium: I don't think this ZTOD fellow understands that you can't un-GPL openttd w/o the permission of everyone who's work was incorporated into openttd (assuming you would do such a thing)
15:24:53 <Rubidium> heh... we got it removed once already
15:25:04 <Rubidium> (and a lot of people got quite pissed)
15:25:24 <abez> Well games people don't necessarily understand why OSS has to be so "legal"
15:25:31 <planetmaker> abez: getting everyone's permission... quite difficult, I think. Not every contributor is around (anymore)
15:25:40 <abez> IP is not well understood
15:26:07 <abez> planetmaker: pretty much and the traceability of all the code is not necessarily clear
15:26:08 <planetmaker> abez: you might make wrong assumptions on the knowledge of some people here on that matter ;-)
15:26:33 <abez> planetmaker: I bet that this channel and other OSS games channel have quite good knowledge about IP
15:26:35 <planetmaker> You might find that people in this channel / community usually take license issues quite serious
15:26:49 <abez> planetmaker: I mean the general gamer populace
15:27:00 <planetmaker> oh, yes. Then I do have to agree
15:27:23 <abez> planetmaker: no offense to you guys since you're one of the few communities with a truly opensource game instead of just non-commercial or lame freeware licensing
15:27:58 <planetmaker> not everyone cares ;-)
15:28:06 <abez> planetmaker: what I'd love to see is some kind of gamer oriented website tutorial about the value of OSS and DFSG compatible licenses for games and assets
15:28:33 <abez> planetmaker: game culture seems very accepting of proprietary solutions
15:28:39 <abez> debian free software guidelines
15:28:56 <planetmaker> well. They're ... very strict
15:28:58 <abez> itis more strict thatn the free software foundations definition of open
15:29:05 <abez> well they have to distribute assets too
15:29:06 <Rubidium> well... Debian didn't consider OpenTTD "main" material for a very long time
15:29:29 <abez> they have a lot of silly cruft in there and openttd is really nice
15:29:30 <planetmaker> proprietary graphics required
15:29:36 <planetmaker> for a long time ;-)
15:30:08 <abez> Rubidium: yes he definitely doesn't understand the issue here, I think he's insulted, he feels his work is being attacked
15:30:09 <planetmaker> there's still no gpl sound available
15:30:29 <abez> Rubidium: so he's got a cydia version right?
15:30:32 <Rubidium> abez: well, talk to zodttd directly (in here)
15:30:56 <Rubidium> abez: I remember an ancient cydia version claiming to be a version of OpenTTD that it wasn't
15:31:23 <abez> but a cydia version would AOK as far as I can tell
15:31:36 <abez> as long as the source is available upon request
15:32:57 <abez> anyways Rubidium thanks for discussing this with me
15:33:08 <abez> the forums were lagging out for me so I could only rely on google cache
15:33:14 <abez> so I couldn't really tell what was up
15:33:41 <abez> I noticed on gpl-violations.org that someone proprietarized SuperMayoMayo Chronicles :(
15:34:02 <Rubidium> a 30 second delay before a page loads?
15:34:02 <abez> Rubidium: in chromium on my net connection I was having problems getting it load
15:34:42 <Rubidium> your browser tries to connect via IPv6 first, when that fails (after ~30 seconds) it will fall back to IPv4
15:34:48 <abez> Oh.. I'm on a VPN and the admin setup a broken IPV6 route
15:34:58 <Rubidium> there might be a setting to disable IPv6 in your browser
15:36:35 <abez> thanks for the random tech support ;)
15:38:27 <Rubidium> oh... they changed their rules after I gave the "okay" for the GPL complying packaging of OpenTTD
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15:38:55 <abez> who is "they" and what rules?
15:39:15 <Rubidium> rules == that GPL breaking stuff
15:39:16 <abez> yeah that's another issue with Apple, they turn on a dime sometimes
15:39:41 <abez> did they change their rules in a positive manner?
15:39:47 <abez> have you enacted positive change?
15:40:35 <Rubidium> no, I seem to remember all this GPL vs Apple issues to pop up after a change in their license, which probably happened after I gave the okay
15:41:08 <Rubidium> or at least before it became publicly known
15:42:02 <abez> well good luck dealing with it
15:42:11 <abez> thanks for discussing this, I gotta go
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16:50:33 <BCMM> if you transfer to a station that accepts the goods you are transferring, do the goods stay there or get accepted?
16:52:02 <BCMM> so attaching a bus station to an airport, and transferring passengers to it, would increase the number of passengers waiting at the airport?
16:52:03 *** welshdragon is now known as waelshdragon
16:53:51 <BCMM> from the wiki: "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at five stations within town influence within a two month period." - does one have to unload, or would just loading do?
16:54:28 <BCMM> would collecting people from multiple bus stops and using them to feed an airport also increase the size of the city and eventually the traffic at the airport?
16:54:47 *** waelshdragon is now known as welshdragon
16:55:55 <Alberth> yes, transfering passengers to a station will increase the number of waiting passengers, just like goods
16:56:40 <Alberth> wouldn't the wiki say differently otherwise?
16:56:57 <Alberth> (although the wiki is known to be not always correct)
16:57:11 <BCMM> i was asking about town growth due to loading and unloading goods
16:57:23 <BCMM> and whether you need to do both
16:57:43 <Alberth> the wiki says both, and most likely it does so for a reason
16:58:26 <Alberth> loading goods in a town? if it gets accepted it is gone
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16:59:23 <Alberth> I don't know how 1 bus and 1 bus stop compare with 1 bus and several bus stops. Your chance to find out.
17:00:18 <Alberth> if the wiki is correct though, you'd have to both load and unload passengers
17:01:43 <Alberth> but euhm, is it not easier to do a few experiments in a game, doing different things in different cities, so you can compare?
17:02:02 <Alberth> or alternatively, read the source :)
17:10:38 <planetmaker> boy boy. Won't be _that_ bad, will it?
17:10:59 <Rubidium> hugging him IRL at the moment?
17:11:39 <Rubidium> don't think that'd be bad, as you'd be on vacation in Australia :)
17:12:15 <andythenorth> ooh Pikka is here :)
17:12:28 <planetmaker> long ago I've been there...
17:16:21 * andythenorth should learn about rail types
17:16:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth: not much to learn there really...
17:17:14 <andythenorth> say I wanted to do an engine that is 750hp on diesel engine, and 2000hp if there is electrified third rail?
17:17:17 <planetmaker> but... will you now also start with a rail type?!
17:20:03 <planetmaker> hm... I'm not sure whether it's possible to do that
17:20:59 <planetmaker> I tend to think it's not
17:22:59 <andythenorth> no varaction 2 var for railtype?
17:23:09 <planetmaker> maybe something can be pulled by (mis-)using the powered wagon callback, but...
17:23:20 <planetmaker> oh, there is for railtypes. But you want it for trains
17:23:40 <andythenorth> I want to check railtype from train
17:23:43 <planetmaker> and trains have no knowledge about the track they're on
17:23:49 <andythenorth> I guess that would be an expensive var to check?
17:24:12 <planetmaker> though curvature etc. is just as expensive
17:24:45 <michi_cc> almost I'd say: case 0x66: return t->railtype;
17:25:27 * andythenorth checks when cb 36 runs
17:26:19 <michi_cc> Which is of course not the current rail type, and might even miss the translation table
17:26:24 <frosch123> maybe you can cheat with articulated parts. make one part an electric engine, and the other part a diesel engine
17:26:46 <frosch123> michi_cc: i guess that is rather the type of the train, not of the track
17:27:06 <planetmaker> michi_cc: but... how to access the current railtype?
17:27:23 <andythenorth> Pikka: I'm plotting a class 73 (which would need to check railtype somehow)
17:27:24 <michi_cc> by introducing a new variable?
17:27:46 <andythenorth> and cb36 might need to run more often than it does now (not sure how often it runs)
17:27:53 <Pikka> 73's already planned for the main set, so don't plot too hard :P
17:28:03 <frosch123> likely it only runs in depot currently
17:28:11 <Pikka> but yes, it would be tricky to make the diesel engine work.
17:28:41 <andythenorth> run it with an invisible powered wagon?
17:28:47 <michi_cc> train_cmd.cpp:3316 looks like the train power is properly updated on changing railtypes
17:29:12 <Pikka> making callbacks run more often would also allow for my automatic banking idea. but otherwise, a var to read the current rail type would be nice.
17:29:21 <Pikka> otherwise, I was just going to leave the diesel engine out :P
17:29:32 <andythenorth> that would be criminal
17:30:14 <Rubidium> we can add a gazillion extra callbacks, but then OpenTTD would become turn based
17:31:00 <Pikka> would be a flag to make it so that articulated parts retained their properties...
17:31:16 <Pikka> that way the diesel engine could be put in a separate vehicle
17:31:32 <Rubidium> although... what do you mean with banking? Different graphics when in tight corners?
17:31:46 <Pikka> banking as in pushing up hills, not turning
17:32:10 <Pikka> it was an idea which didn't really work, anyway :)
17:32:31 <frosch123> [19:26] <frosch123> maybe you can cheat with articulated parts. make one part an electric engine, and the other part a diesel engine <- just for the record: does not work
17:33:06 <Pikka> hence "a flag to make it so that articulated parts retained their properties...", frosch123
17:33:17 <michi_cc> A "return GetReverseRailTypeTranslation(GetTileRailType(t->tile), object->grffile);" somewhere (i.e. for whichever var you want) in newgrf_engine.cpp should work
17:34:56 <Pikka> "BR Type JB" is the Class 73, btw andythenorth ;)
17:43:21 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20162 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3954]: integer comparison failed in case the difference was more than "MAX_UINT"/2
17:45:34 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20163 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:34 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:34 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
17:45:34 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by IPG
17:45:34 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: irish - 6 changes by tem
17:45:35 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: portuguese - 18 changes by ABCRic
17:45:35 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: russian - 73 changes by Lone_Wolf, perk11
17:45:46 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20164 /trunk/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#3870]: inconsistencies w.r.t. to km/h vs km-ish/h as "base" unit for aircraft speeds
17:46:45 <Pikka> wow, that's been a long time coming :P
17:50:18 * Pikka hands Sacro a malicious object
17:50:38 * planetmaker doesn't want to know the details :-P
17:51:58 * andythenorth can't code trains
17:52:21 <Alberth> we have plentry of train coders
17:53:17 <Pikka> what're you trying to code, andy?
17:53:50 <Pikka> well, if you need help, I'm only a PM away :) I've probably got something I can cut and paste for you.
17:53:51 <andythenorth> copying action 0 from a road vehicle doesn't work for a train :)
17:53:58 * andythenorth now studiously reads documentation
17:54:10 <Pikka> is it a wagon or a loco?
17:54:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: one of the nice things about NFO: inconsistent properties through all features
17:54:44 <Pikka> my loco action 0s are still a bit messy, never bothered to tidy them up like I did with my wagons. :)
18:00:17 * andythenorth is somewhat amused by trying to translate an RV action 0 to a train
18:00:25 <andythenorth> for certain values of 'somewhat'
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18:02:07 <Pikka> probably better to start from scratch ;)
18:05:25 * andythenorth starts from scratch
18:08:50 <andythenorth> trains and rvs can't share action 1 sprites
18:11:24 <andythenorth> strings can't be shared either of course
18:15:50 <Pikka> strings? vehicle names? D:
18:16:50 <Alberth> andy codes nfo in strings :)
18:17:47 <andythenorth> (not a url, the thing in the pictures linked by the url) :P
18:18:06 <andythenorth> appropriately enough, the google image results include a lego version
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18:27:33 <Pikka> and now for the $3.25 question
18:27:50 <Pikka> should the HST go with the DMUs or the locomotives?
18:32:31 <Pikka> btw andythenorth: I'm going to do a monster box and save the polybulks for covered cargos, thanks for the suggestion. ;)
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18:38:23 <andythenorth> I won't draw the monster box then, unless it suits you that I do
18:38:37 <andythenorth> in UKRS 1 I like that the polybulk is widely refittable :)
18:39:34 <andythenorth> I'd have done it by now, but I'm too lazy to do load sprites :P
18:40:11 <Pikka> the more the merrier. ;) gonna do a few livery variations? :)
18:40:21 <andythenorth> you happy to code them for me?
18:40:53 <andythenorth> set design is a bit of a ying-yang
18:41:04 <andythenorth> small sets are cleaner...
18:41:04 <Pikka> I don't know if you've played with the set much yet, but most of the wagons have 3 or 4 liveries
18:41:25 <andythenorth> ...but variation keeps me playing and that means a large set
18:41:37 <Pikka> when you build a train the wagons all match, as it gets older they start to get a little mixed up. :)
18:42:05 <andythenorth> I played a UKRS 1 + addons + FIRS game recently
18:42:07 <Pikka> there's also a few variations by cargo for tanks and whatnot...
18:42:14 <andythenorth> I saw those in the sprites
18:42:34 <andythenorth> with FIRS 0.2, it's the first time I've found a real use for small locos
18:42:57 <andythenorth> the class 14 was really useful
18:43:00 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Any other whishes for vehicle vars besides current rail type?
18:43:11 <michi_cc> And Pikka of course as well :)
18:43:28 <andythenorth> michi_cc: now if you could just make it possible for RVs to travel on rail also....
18:44:03 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's called trams ;-)
18:44:05 <Pikka> michi_cc: probably a long, long list, but luckily for you none that come to mind right now ;)
18:45:16 <Pikka> global count of vehicle IDs would be nice. also a callback to show/hide vehicles in the buy list if you have time. :P
19:00:34 * andythenorth also 'invented' a shunting yard....with transfer orders. Dunno why I didn't think of it before
19:03:11 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20165 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp newgrf_railtype.cpp): -Feature: [NewGRF] Information (var 4A) about the current railtype a train is on.
19:07:55 <michi_cc> andythenorth: now go to work :)
19:08:58 <andythenorth> the engine I had in mind is already planned by pikka
19:09:45 <Pikka> it will also let me raise/lower pantographs for the dual power locos :)
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19:32:53 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20166 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/fileio.cpp): -Fix [FS#3949]: do not scan /data and ~/data (if they happen to be your working directory). If it's the directory where your binary is located it will still scan them.
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19:39:50 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r20167 /trunk/src/table/newgrf_debug_data.h: -Add: Vehicle var 4A to the NewGRF debug window.
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20:23:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... aim for space race or cultural victory?
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20:30:29 <frosch123> doesn't cultural victory take ages?
20:31:24 <Pikka> andythenorth: how goeth?
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21:17:49 <Wolf01> [21:00:40] * andythenorth also 'invented' a shunting yard <- screens?
21:18:00 <andythenorth> it was pretty simple
21:18:45 <andythenorth> just small shunters dropping goods off where a larger train was waiting
21:19:37 <Wolf01> ah, like the "cheat" to raise a station rating with vehicles
21:19:40 <andythenorth> my road-railer is doing 1752mph
21:19:57 * andythenorth swaps a byte for a word
21:27:29 <andythenorth> newgrf trains don't seem to set a default value for TE
21:29:22 <Pikka> TE for trains has been an established newgrf feature for many years.. since almost the beginning of newgrf sets for ttdpatch
21:29:31 <Pikka> it's not an optional extra like it is for RVs :P
21:29:42 <andythenorth> ttdp newgrf wiki implies that if not set, 4C will be used
21:31:34 * andythenorth watches a tractor running on rails
21:34:33 <andythenorth> "austerity measures"
21:37:25 <andythenorth> who needs trains at all?
21:43:31 <oniik> lol i love how they manually hold the connection on the el. wire
21:44:34 <oniik> i think it is indicative that their in their name is the word "uhel" wich means accident in norwegian
21:46:55 <andythenorth> everyone knows what a Hi-Rail is, yes/no?
21:47:06 <andythenorth> as road-railer would be misleading and cause bug reports :P
21:48:17 <ccfreak2k> andythenorth, the opposite of a...lo-rail?
21:49:11 <Wolf01> I can tell you for sure that "everyone" doesn't know it, but somebody may know it
21:51:02 <oniik> how can a youtube video have 301 views, but 751 likes and 50 dislikes?
21:52:53 <Wolf01> maybe a view is counted if you see the full video
21:53:30 <oniik> possibly. or the lines are crossed and things a cached
21:55:24 <Rubidium> people who can't help themselves but clicking hundreds of times on a button
21:55:30 <Rubidium> or... it's just random data
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22:03:46 <Eddi|zuHause> like "meet women from your region"? :p
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22:57:15 <peter1138> the other trylocks periodically to see if it can get it
22:57:58 <peter1138> but it seems to get it before the other thread has actually unlocked it :s
22:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> the joy of threading :p
23:05:40 <peter1138> of course, now that i bring the subject up, i realise why
23:05:43 <peter1138> and yes. user error.
23:05:59 <peter1138> initializing a data structure... that happens to contain the mutex
23:11:33 <tdev> and congrats for zero'ing the mutex ;)
23:11:53 <tdev> some time ago i had the same stupid stuff going on with std::string ... :\
23:14:49 <peter1138> stupid thing is it mostly worked even though it was zeroed... just the trylock got it a smidge early
23:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hm.... maybe i should get some u-boats for my shiny new nuclear missiles
23:16:41 <peter1138> tdev, real coders use char * ;)
23:16:48 <peter1138> (admittedly, i am just using C here)
23:17:04 <tdev> peter1138: yes, thats what i try to do
23:17:40 <tdev> memsetting non-PDO types always ensures fun finding the bug :D
23:19:50 <tdev> you know that our MP server crashes from time to time? :)
23:20:01 <tdev> so i wrote a huge gdb wrapper script around it :D
23:20:09 <Rubidium> why are "IT professionals" such bad bug reporters?
23:21:02 <tdev> Rubidium: they are too lazy?
23:30:58 <glx> Rubidium: and why to they use silly archive format ;)
23:31:46 <glx> rar is not the best format
23:32:24 <Wolf01> Rubidium, IT professionals don't use the software as a common user does, so they don't know how to report bugs, but they try to find the cause of the bug instead
23:32:43 <Rubidium> Wolf01: this one definitely doesn't
23:33:02 <Rubidium> and I wonder how he's using OpenTTD that he manages what he is managing
23:34:17 <glx> hehe he doesn't even use the ingame screenshot
23:34:18 <planetmaker> bug or feature: when the OSK window is active (but not directly its edit box), all global hotkeys are active and one cannot type normally the string
23:35:55 <Rubidium> planetmaker: huh? You mean when the white "I have focus" line isn't flashing?
23:35:55 <planetmaker> really? why not then when I have the normal sign editing window open?
23:36:23 <planetmaker> Rubidium: open the OSK. Klick on any of the buttons in it. And try to continue writing the text by keyboard
23:37:13 <Wolf01> maybe because the sign tool's textbox doesn't lose the focus
23:37:46 <Rubidium> dunnoat least it's consistent over versions of OpenTTD
23:38:37 <Rubidium> though clicking outside of the input box kinda means you don't want focus there anymore
23:38:38 <planetmaker> well. I can continue to type, if I only open the osk
23:39:08 <planetmaker> but as soon as I click a letter in there, I can't write using keyboard anymore
23:39:15 <planetmaker> doesn't seem logical
23:39:19 <Rubidium> until you click on the input box again
23:39:40 <peter1138> but "IT Professional" means "Knows how to paste a picture into MS Word then email it"
23:39:52 <planetmaker> but why would I want the keys to have their global hotkey meaning, if I write a text?
23:40:20 <planetmaker> I'd understand it, if the osk window had no focus
23:40:35 <Rubidium> because you *removed* focus from input box
23:40:56 <glx> the focus is now on the button
23:41:31 <Ammler> StationGUI does apply and compile successful in r20080, but conflicts in r20146, but there is no change since r20071 in the conflicting file (rail_gui.cpp:1512: error: conflicting return type specified for 'virtual void BuildRailStationWindow::OnRightClick(Point, int)')
23:41:45 <peter1138> i agree with planetmaker for the OSK
23:42:15 <Rubidium> oh, there planetmaker... someone that's willing to fix your issue :)
23:42:34 <peter1138> i willing for planetmaker to supply a fix :D
23:42:36 <glx> Ammler: void vs bool maybe ?
23:45:04 <Rubidium> too bad OpenTTD uses GPL... now we can't limit OpenTTD usage for people that have an IQ of more than say 100
23:45:43 <Ammler> hmm, the conflict is caused by windows_gui.h:660: error: overriding 'virtual bool Window::OnRightClick(Point, int)' (next line) then
23:47:37 <glx> Ammler: just check r20145
23:47:47 <DorpsGek> glx: Commit by rubidium :: r20145 /trunk/src (4 files) (2010-07-14 17:36:27 UTC)
23:47:48 <DorpsGek> glx: -Codechange: keep original RMB->tooltip behaviour when hovering is disabled and there is no handled right click event for the widget, i.e. if a widget would handle the right click you won't see the tooltip anymore by right clicking; by enabling hovering you would get access to that tooltip again.
23:48:45 <glx> it's better to know what happened to trunk before trying to update a patch :)
23:50:22 <glx> especially commits that may have interaction with the patch, even if it applies cleanly
23:52:52 <Rubidium> glx: no! That takes time... just update, compile and ignore warnings/errors. That's the way to create and maintain quality improvements to OpenTTD
23:55:25 <Ammler> Rubidium: time isn't the only issue
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