IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-07-04
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00:00:00 <svip> And a lot of seems to be indicating that trains can turn more than 90 degrees.
00:00:01 * Eddi|zuHause tries to avoid also 2x45° turns
00:01:17 <elho> i'm not sure whether i have them enabled, but my networks never have sharp turns
00:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> imho, curve speed limits should be even lower... like 2x45° = 20km/h or things...
00:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need like 16 tiles curves to have >200km/h
00:02:28 <svip> How are the trains EVER going to get on the middle line on each side?
00:02:43 <elho> svip: yes, you do not. :)
00:03:18 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: they're not supposed to turn that way
00:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: it's a dummy line to transfer the signal state through the combo signal
00:04:10 <svip> >_> This is where my smart signals would come in hand.
00:04:29 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: they wouldn't handle that case at all
00:04:59 <elho> one can argua that truely smat signals can handle any situation possible ;)
00:05:15 <elho> but that is exactly why i do not like them
00:05:47 <svip> Still, the 'check zone' can also be with 'backtracking'.
00:05:53 <elho> my trigger plate idea however would allow one to build the same thing without abusing tracks as feedback lines
00:05:58 <svip> And it does not require a suggestion zone.
00:06:31 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: it can't possibly algorithmically work the way you propose...
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00:10:36 * elho wonders whether speed based reservation distance might make sense. it would at least be realistic
00:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: it doesn't have the effect you desire
00:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: means faster trains are more likely to be stuck in stations, because the slower trains get a free path earlier
00:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: it also means faster trains are more likely to be overtaken, because more reservation = more pathfinder penalty for following trains = more likely taking the alternative track
00:15:08 <elho> it would give faster trains priority, no? like slow train being one signal block before junction and fast train two blocks, but fast train reserving 3 blocks ahead would have junction reserved before slot arrives
00:15:32 <elho> standing in station all trains are slow, obviously
00:16:18 <elho> the one accelerating faster wins at the junction after the station
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00:16:44 <glx> but starting train is "random"
00:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: your situation hardly ever occurs, because trains are likely closely following each other, and that second train has no long reservation
00:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so the slow train can sneak into that gap
00:18:15 <elho> yeah, the long reservation had to be smart as in not care about a train in front going at same speed :/
00:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no such thing as a "smart" signal, reservation or train
00:19:07 <glx> waterfoul: missing config obviously
00:19:27 <Eddi|zuHause> when talking about algorithms, you need to scratch that word from your vocabulary
00:19:29 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: obviously.
00:19:34 <glx> "expr (pow(2,[::ap::config::get patches map_y]))" --> pow(2,)
00:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> every signal suggestion i heard all day was in the category of "it doesn't work as you think"
00:20:31 <waterfoul> this is with the default config
00:21:25 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: that reservation was just an idea. i am in no way suggesting it. personally i could well do without PBs at all.
00:22:06 <glx> waterfoul: but I'm not an autopilot specialist, I just parsed the error message
00:24:03 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: the only actual suggestion i have is the triggerplates (either wirelessly connected to the signals or with a tool to build signal cables) that simply allow priorisation constructs without abuse of presignals and having weird looking tracks
00:26:24 <elho> potentially add some sort of speed limits or limiting signals (like sped limit XX when triggered, no limit when off) to ease contructs for controlled acceleration (fitting trains into gaps)
00:38:47 <elho> you gotta love wrong comments in code...
00:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, better have canonically commented code...
00:46:12 <elho> better no comments, makes you thing about it right away instead of later once you find a contradiction
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01:52:20 <waterfoul> anyone know how to stop autopiliot from unpausing?
02:54:48 <waterfoul> any way to fast forward on a network game?
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04:10:10 <waterfoul> so why do the primary industries dissappear?
04:15:22 <theholyduck> waterfoul, don't post in MULTIPLE channels
04:15:32 <theholyduck> answered you in #openttdcoop
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07:11:26 * andythenorth tries to remember how to provide sprites for generic class 'bulk'
07:13:34 * andythenorth doesn't bother :o
07:21:45 <waterfoul> anyone compiled openttd with mingw? I am getting Unknown option --cache-file=mingw32-config.cache
07:22:46 <Rubidium> the nightly compile farm compiles it every night
07:23:37 <Rubidium> no idea how you would get that error... how are you compiling OpenTTD?
07:25:21 <waterfoul> I am on f13 using their packages
07:25:50 <Rubidium> pff... smells like mingw32-configure assumes OpenTTD has autoconf whereas OpenTTD doesn't use autoconf
07:26:15 <waterfoul> if I try "./configure --host i686-pc-mingw32 --windres i686-pc-mingw32" it complains about zlib but I have the right package installed
07:26:40 <waterfoul> i686-pc-mingw32-gcc and i686-pc-mingw32-g++ are the compilers
07:26:45 <waterfoul> and it finds those just fine
07:27:10 <waterfoul> it also find the windres just fine
07:27:14 <Rubidium> waterfoul: --with-zlib <path> ?
07:27:35 <waterfoul> sec finding th path
07:28:04 <waterfoul> is this it? /usr/i686-pc-mingw32/sys-root/mingw/include/zlib.h
07:28:45 <waterfoul> or is it this /usr/i686-pc-mingw32/sys-root/mingw/lib/libz.a
07:28:51 <Rubidium> I think you need to pass the .a
07:29:27 <waterfoul> ok thats what its asking for but '--with-zlib "/usr/i686-pc-mingw32/sys-root/mingw/lib/libz.a"' didn't work
07:30:00 <waterfoul> ah had to do --with-zlib=
07:30:31 <Rubidium> in any case... the problem with cross compilation is that it quite easily picks up stuff from the main system, so it's generally better to use a chroot
07:31:02 <waterfoul> which is what i thought mingw32-configure did
07:32:47 <waterfoul> " SDL_config-i386.h: No such file or directory" :(
07:33:01 <planetmaker> ciao means 'good bye'
07:33:17 <planetmaker> enjoy your day, Rubidium :-)
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07:47:46 * andythenorth ponders recolor sprites for cargo support
07:49:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: could the CPP provide recolor sprites?
07:52:41 <planetmaker> But I have no idea about re-colour sprites
07:53:05 <frosch123> just define which colours you want to use for cargos
07:53:19 <andythenorth> I have a good idea about drawing multiple load state sprites for multiple cargos, then writing action 1 for those :P
07:53:22 <frosch123> do you want to use cc or 2cc at the same time?
07:56:42 <planetmaker> frosch123: so I basically define a new palette with other(?) or (only) re-arranged(?) entries which point to the original palette?
07:57:21 <planetmaker> so the simplest re-colour sprite would be an array of 0 ... 255, right?
07:57:26 <frosch123> i will prepare a short example
07:57:27 <planetmaker> which would basically have no effect
08:01:40 <andythenorth> if cargo is always recolored on the same range (probably one of the funky purples), then it might be a straight replace?
08:02:06 <andythenorth> and we nest some templates (one for table, one defining colors for each cargo)
08:02:14 <andythenorth> I can sort of see how to do it :o
08:02:19 <andythenorth> but not 100% sure
08:02:53 <frosch123> do you need the water cycle?
08:03:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: for FISH yes
08:03:36 <frosch123> hmm, so where can i put the cargo colours?
08:03:59 <andythenorth> (also need the fire cycle - flashing orange lights in HEQS)
08:04:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth: all at the same time?
08:04:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: need fire for HEQS and water for FISH.
08:05:24 <andythenorth> what are the magenta blocks 1-9 for?
08:05:47 <andythenorth> nvm, drawing cargo with those would suck for an obvious reason :P
08:06:49 <andythenorth> AA-B1 windows looks most likely
08:06:59 <andythenorth> that gives 8 colours
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08:08:30 * andythenorth ponders using other 'elements' in newgrf :P
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08:18:53 <planetmaker> thanks frosch123 :-)
08:19:48 <Rolvaag> but... my name's not Albert
08:20:03 * andythenorth reads recolor code. needs to understand a few things better :o
08:22:10 <andythenorth> so I need to check with varact 2: CC, 2CC, cargo
08:22:15 <andythenorth> and branch accordingly?
08:22:30 <planetmaker> hm... sounds... tedious and non-intuitve how re-colouring is defined
08:22:55 <frosch123> you check the cargo with varact2, and return the startsprite for the matching CARGO_1CC_RECOLOUR_SPRITES or CARGO_2CC_RECOLOUR_SPRITES
08:23:18 <Alberth> planetmaker: I have that problem with a lot of NewGRF things :)
08:23:35 <frosch123> planetmaker: if a pixel has colour A, it is replaced by the colour at byte A of the recolour map
08:24:05 <andythenorth> if there wasn't cc / 2cc to deal with, it would be almost elegant
08:24:07 <frosch123> so if the recolour sprite is 00 01 02 03 ... FF nothing is changed
08:24:46 <frosch123> inserting "cc" at offset C6 defines the colours to use for indexes C6..CD, i.e. the 1CC colours
08:24:54 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes :-) But the definition of them and how to tell that it should use :-) But I guess I really just have to try to wrap my mind around it
08:25:28 * planetmaker tries to wrap head around it now
08:25:40 <frosch123> biggest problem is that you somehow need to find 256 free action1 sprites for every cargo in every climate... if you want to support 2cc
08:25:44 <frosch123> likely impossible :p
08:26:04 <frosch123> hmm, we need a moderator
08:26:21 <frosch123> peter1138: orudge, rubidium
08:26:46 <frosch123> everyone is gone for the weekend :)
08:27:48 <frosch123> how many sprites are there in total? around 4000 iirc :p
08:28:00 <planetmaker> hm, you have no ops here, frosch123 ?
08:28:23 <frosch123> no, i did not even register to dorpsgek :)
08:28:53 <andythenorth> ow. recolor sprites are making my brain hurt
08:29:13 <andythenorth> but solving this once with CPP will be eminently reusable
08:29:24 <andythenorth> drawing n load sprites is not :P
08:29:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: i guess currently you have no chance to support 2cc and cargo recolouring
08:29:58 <planetmaker> frosch123: not via either the fire cycle or water cycle?
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08:30:40 <frosch123> likely it is a lot easier to write a script which recolours the vehicle sprites and then stores them as graphics
08:30:55 <frosch123> i.e. no recolouring at runtime, but during "make"
08:31:03 <andythenorth> I was just thinking the same
08:31:07 <andythenorth> NML now requires PIL?
08:31:14 <andythenorth> recoloring with PIL might be trivial
08:31:31 * andythenorth isn't using NML for HEQS or FIRS
08:31:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: it did at least as long as I am hacking in the nml code
08:32:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it does require it, yes. Needed for converting png to grf sprites
08:32:46 <planetmaker> no need for ugly pcx :-)
08:33:16 <planetmaker> you need the proper palette, though
08:33:39 <andythenorth> it would be useful to have png for sets not using NML as well
08:33:51 <planetmaker> yes. But no one maintains grfcodec
08:33:57 <andythenorth> can't we have make do it?
08:34:11 <andythenorth> currently I have a photoshop action to convert pngs
08:41:01 <planetmaker> in principle make could do it. But it'd add a dependency there, too
08:41:19 <planetmaker> and there are a number of things which then can go wrong there...
08:43:22 <planetmaker> hm... what's the 'advanced vehicle list' actually?
08:43:44 <Alberth> afaik the group list at the left
08:44:55 <Alberth> but don't ask why that is supposed to be 'advanced' :)
08:45:42 <Alberth> I'd rather call it 'too much manual work'
08:46:20 <frosch123> planetmaker: click the vehicle list, and then ctrl+click it
08:46:32 <frosch123> you will get the advanced list with group, and the old list without
08:48:17 <planetmaker> uhm... how can I click the vehicle list... it's a drop down menu from the main toolbar. Or... where do I miss this?
08:48:34 <frosch123> i mean the icon in the menubar
08:49:53 <planetmaker> There still is the not-advanced... alright
08:50:08 <frosch123> you can select the default list in advanced settings
08:50:10 <planetmaker> doesn't make IMHO sense to support both and have it an option
08:50:18 <planetmaker> yes, that's where I wondered about the setting :-)
08:50:38 <frosch123> planetmaker: more troublesome, the list does not use advanced gui concepts like selection planes, there is still a lot code duplication
08:50:58 <frosch123> oh, and for other companies only the old list can be opened
08:53:27 <planetmaker> hm, for me the option in the settings can take 'none', 'own' and 'all companies'
08:53:49 <planetmaker> still... why do we need the window w/o groups?
08:54:11 <frosch123> planetmaker: why do we need a face selection window?
08:54:52 <planetmaker> but these windows are equivalent, one lacking functionality
08:54:53 <frosch123> why do i need a big fat list, if i am too lazy to create groups anyway :)
08:54:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the older window is smaller
08:55:05 <andythenorth> so I guess if you don't have much space....
08:55:23 <planetmaker> frosch123: I don't know the default, but if it is 'small' then most people will not know even about groups
08:55:29 <frosch123> oh, and i guess the vehicle lists for stations, depots, shared orders, and such also use the old list
08:56:13 <planetmaker> hm, yes. That makes sense
08:56:42 <frosch123> looks like "own company" is default
08:57:38 <frosch123> yeah, roads are harder
08:57:48 <frosch123> building half roads at shore should be allowed
08:57:57 <planetmaker> what did you want to try to fix, Alberth ?
08:59:12 <planetmaker> honestly, Alberth, I think one should be allowed to build there
08:59:24 <andythenorth> it would be so handy to have 'replace vehicles' apply to shared orders, rather than have to make a group
08:59:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: just code it :)
08:59:36 <andythenorth> or even all vehicles using a station
09:00:03 <andythenorth> you know how my coding works. I start it, then ask stupid questions until someone else answers them.
09:00:05 <planetmaker> Alberth: especially for roads it makes sense: it's a place for fishermen
09:00:11 <andythenorth> 95% of my code is written by other people :P
09:00:15 <planetmaker> few go fishing by train, though ;-)
09:00:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: that ramp will be needed when hovercraft are allowed on land :)
09:00:31 <planetmaker> but having a road down to the water neither looks bad nor unrealistic IMHO
09:00:36 <Alberth> I haven't touched roads yet, but a half-road makes sense to allo
09:00:51 <frosch123> you just need to generalise the enginerenew pool items, to also hold stationsids, or orderlistids, instead of only groups
09:00:54 <andythenorth> if hovercraft can go on land, I can also provide amphibious trucks :P
09:01:13 <planetmaker> Alberth: but it only checks for the presence of water I assume, not the height?
09:01:46 <frosch123> Alberth: you need the halfroad to build a corner and then go along the coast
09:01:47 <planetmaker> what if the adjacent tile is a canal or river?
09:02:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: are we concluding 2cc recolor sprites is a no-go?
09:02:03 <Alberth> frosch123: I am aware of that
09:02:06 <andythenorth> if so I need to start drawing :P
09:02:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: we concluded that 2cc with callback 2d is a no-go. the sprites need to be recoloured during make
09:02:39 <Alberth> planetmaker: no driving into canals/rivers either, we cannot have people driving into water
09:02:52 <andythenorth> Alberth: we could
09:03:03 <andythenorth> I would happily provide suitable vehicles :P
09:03:16 <Alberth> new disaster: "driver followed GPS and drowned" :)
09:04:09 <planetmaker> hm... doesn't sound sensible to me.
09:04:22 <planetmaker> Why wouldn't I be allowed to build a dead-end road to a water shore?
09:04:44 <Alberth> with road, I don't know
09:04:44 <planetmaker> especially if it's a small water patch in town?
09:04:45 <frosch123> for consistency with rails :)
09:04:59 <planetmaker> I think it'd be quite limiting without good reason
09:05:22 <Alberth> with trains, it stops building at the tile where you place a bridge
09:05:36 <Alberth> you often build such roads by design?
09:06:16 <planetmaker> I did that already, yes
09:06:31 <planetmaker> Actually also with rail tracks. But there more for fun
09:07:01 <frosch123> andythenorth: btw. most troublesome with the autoreplace for vehicles at specific stations is, that there is no defined priority between rules.
09:07:43 <frosch123> i.e. if engine A should be replaced to B for station 1, and to C for station 2, what should happen for vehicles driving to both station 1 and 2?
09:07:53 <planetmaker> the 'problem' of a half-tile road is that it actually is build upon foundations. Which looks quite differently from a full road down to the water
09:08:32 <frosch123> for groups there is a priority. the group has higher priority as the global rules, and there is even a protect button
09:09:56 <frosch123> and the more places you can configure replacement rules, the more places you need to search for disabling the rules :p
09:11:42 <planetmaker> but if it doesn't, then the coast would be inconsistent, if it did
09:12:27 <Alberth> planetmaker: for trains the idea is to stop at the point where a bridge begins. For roads, that is not possible. At least the first half road is needed. That makes you wonder whether we'd need to bother about roads at all here.
09:13:00 <planetmaker> imho roads need no behavioural change, yes
09:13:42 <Alberth> although even for trains it is not entirely feasible. when building a diagonal, your track is 1 piece too long
09:14:01 <planetmaker> for consistency I'd advocate to allow the same for rails, but... I can't argue with a coastal boulevard there.
09:14:33 <planetmaker> and why do I always type jfb when I try to type your nick?
09:17:51 <frosch123> yeah, maybe it is indeed just easier to remove that check completely...
09:18:05 <Terkhen> it needs a consistent behaviour
09:18:20 <frosch123> though for sure someone will complain in any case :)
09:19:09 <Terkhen> making easier to build up to a coastal tile instead of to the water makes sense IMO, that way it is easier to build road/rail + bridge
09:19:40 <fjb> New accident: car falling into water.
09:21:57 <planetmaker> But if I can build foundations there (which basically remove all visible water on that tile, though it doesn't change it) - why not then allow to build water access, too?
09:22:28 * planetmaker now goes to re-assign a new hot-key for road toolbar
09:25:11 <Terkhen> the check could be present only when building long roads / rails, but building simple tiles would allow to build water accesses... that way you can choose if you want to build a bridge or water access (but this sounds overcomplicated already)
09:27:35 <planetmaker> OpenTTD's hotkeys don't respect my localization
09:27:36 <Alberth> I had that thought also, and discarded it for the same reason :)
09:27:38 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20071 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: Consistently return the toolbar window for ShowBuildXxxToolbar().
09:27:51 <planetmaker> hm. Actually they do
09:27:59 <planetmaker> but localization doesn't change the keyboard
09:28:29 <frosch123> hehe, what do you think why "=" is a hotkey for zoom-in :p
09:29:03 <Alberth> until virtual keyboards are standard, a morphing keyboard is unlikely to happen :)
09:29:07 <planetmaker> but I assigned 'Y' to roads. And 'Z' triggers it
09:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds... bad...
09:30:11 <planetmaker> yep, irrespective of the language selected
09:34:40 <planetmaker> zoomin = NUM_PLUS,=,SHIFT+=,SHIFT+F5
09:34:41 <planetmaker> zoomout = NUM_PLUS,-,SHIFT+-,SHIFT+F6^
09:34:43 <planetmaker> ^^ looks like zoommin got a wrong num pad assignment?
09:35:18 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20072 /trunk/src/hotkeys.cpp: -Fix (r20065): NUM_MINUS was stored as NUM_PLUS in config file.
09:37:40 <planetmaker> crash upon loading hotkeys
09:37:57 <frosch123> due to using NUM_MINUS ?
09:39:55 <planetmaker> ok, that's expected then?
09:40:11 <planetmaker> then you can close #3924 ;-)
09:42:14 <frosch123> no, it is not expected :)
09:42:32 <Wolf01> would now be possible to use "A" for bot autorail and autoroad?
09:42:41 <frosch123> does it also crash when using FOOBAR?
09:43:01 <planetmaker> hm, I test with r20072, ok? :-)
09:44:51 <planetmaker> FOOBAR looks fine in r20072
09:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yes, as in: when road toolbar is open, 'A' means autoroad, otherwise autorail
09:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (i suppose when cycling through the non-open toolbars, rail gets checked first)
09:46:01 <Wolf01> but the default global "A" opens autorail, and it's configurable to open autoroad
09:47:46 <frosch123> Wolf01: you can set "a" to do autoroad/rail if the matching toolbar is open. you can set "a" to do autorail if neither toolbar is open, and you can set "shift+a" to do autoroad
09:48:10 <planetmaker> hm, there's no road toolbar so far?
09:48:51 <frosch123> ah, yes, true, that is still missing
09:49:02 <frosch123> road/tram/scenario editor was too complicated for last night :)
09:51:16 <planetmaker> hm, and indeed: the centre zoom is now on my y key
09:52:01 <planetmaker> but that has been that way before
09:52:23 <planetmaker> though now it becomes obvious
09:55:52 <frosch123> planetmaker: r20070 with that hotkeys.cfg does not crash for me, and your backtrace looks very appleish
09:56:16 <planetmaker> might be. The last call was in load hotkeys, though
09:56:27 <planetmaker> And... I cannot quite reproduce it with r20072 now
09:57:43 <frosch123> HandleGlobalHotkeys hmm, missed that :s
09:58:16 <planetmaker> and... looking at it again, I kinda doubt it's an apple - only one
09:58:29 <frosch123> ok, then it is likely fixed by r20071
09:58:52 <frosch123> did you press some key during map generation maybe?
09:59:10 <frosch123> yup, that crashes in r20070
09:59:12 <planetmaker> puh... I can't tell
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10:16:17 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... can awk handle field ranges? (like "print column 5 to the end of the line")
10:20:00 <Eddi|zuHause> no... that would print the whole line ($0) and then the 5th column again ($5)
10:20:41 <frosch123> oh, you mean 'bla = $5; $5 = ""; print $0 bla'
10:21:07 <lennard> he means 'print $5 $6 $7 $8 ... $last'
10:21:20 <lennard> I never found how to do it when I wanted to :P
10:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, like if you want to parse output of ls -l or similar, and the filenames contain spaces
10:22:31 <frosch123> ls has options to escape resp. quote such names
10:22:34 <Alberth> n = 5\n print $n works according to the manual, so you should be able to write a loop
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10:23:27 <frosch123> i always delete the columns :)
10:25:05 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, yeah, frosch123's way works
10:25:24 <Alberth> I'd write a Python script instead
10:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but python scripts are more difficult to give from the command line ;)
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10:57:44 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20073 /trunk/src/ (hotkeys.cpp road_gui.cpp road_gui.h toolbar_gui.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the road toolbar
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11:02:25 <andythenorth> planetmaker / Ammler should I move HEQS to the coop account on Bananas?
11:05:45 <planetmaker> if you like, sure :-)
11:06:06 <planetmaker> I actually *should* use that for my uploads, too
11:06:22 <planetmaker> Only I find it then a big hassle to switch accounts for translations and bug reports
11:06:51 <andythenorth> I have to switch to coop for FISH and FIRS anyway
11:07:03 <planetmaker> which is the only reason my work being uploaded under my name there
11:07:17 <planetmaker> not that I don't want other contributers to have no access
11:07:17 <andythenorth> Does it cause players any problem to have HEQS available twice?
11:07:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth: don't create a new entry
11:07:39 <andythenorth> how do I shift account then?
11:07:45 <planetmaker> rather ask at some time to have HEQS shifted to openttdcoop
11:07:51 <planetmaker> you need to ask Rubi
11:08:49 <planetmaker> or you write a bananas interface which allows to assign additional authors to an account
11:08:55 <planetmaker> It's supported afaik by the backend
11:09:07 <planetmaker> ask him any way which is convenient. I did a few times via IRC
11:09:16 <andythenorth> Rubidium: could you move HEQS to openttd coop account on bananas?
11:10:42 <planetmaker> other than that... you can of course for now continue to use your account. Nothing wrong with that
11:14:11 <Rubidium> andythenorth: should be done
11:14:40 <andythenorth> one less password in my life :)
11:27:14 <frosch123> hmm, let's vote against smoking :p
11:28:29 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20074 /trunk/src/ (highscore_gui.cpp hotkeys.h main_gui.cpp): -Fix (r20065): highscore window should use the same hotkey for quit as the toolbar
11:31:08 <svip> How do I destroy industries?
11:31:34 <svip> The game decided to construct a new industry RIGHT in front of my station, so I can't make a RoRo station. :(
11:31:43 <PeterT> I wrote the wiki article
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11:45:24 <andythenorth> HEQS trams released :)
11:48:30 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20075 /trunk/src/ (hotkeys.cpp toolbar_gui.cpp): -Feature: customizable hotkeys for the main toolbar in the scenario editor
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11:58:39 <Wolf01> PeterT: towns are able to remove your tracks/stations too if I'm not wrong... or it was a bug, I remember having trains stuck in their little piece of track when a city ate that part of the map
11:58:56 <PeterT> I think they can only remove industries
11:59:19 <PeterT> just like with magic bulldozer, you can't remove other players' stations
11:59:46 <Wolf01> ok, then it has been fixed
12:00:00 <Wolf01> can you remove other players roads?
12:00:07 <Vitus> Hello, I'm just trying the new changes in trunk (hotkeys), however, I cannot find road toolbar settings in hotkeys.cfg (I'm using self-compiled r20075). Anyone else having such problem?
12:01:31 <PeterT> Wolf01: don't think so, if the company is still alive
12:03:52 <svip> How often does new engines arrive?
12:03:55 <Wolf01> gah, I feel the lack of the "change owner of unused roads to local authority" patch option... That is really a useful feature
12:04:02 <glx> Vitus: I think it's a bug
12:04:21 <Vitus> OK, I just wanted to be sure if it's not mistake on my part
12:04:27 <Wolf01> I don't want to cheat only to remove stupid road layouts
12:04:38 <frosch123> SL_HOTKEYS is missing :)
12:05:29 <glx> frosch123: ha you noticed it too :)
12:06:03 <PeterT> yes - call his home phone
12:06:13 <PeterT> he will be very pleased
12:06:32 <frosch123> rather send some cookies with a kind request :)
12:06:45 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20076 /trunk/src/hotkeys.cpp: -Fix (r20073): hotkeys for the road toolbar were not stored in hotkeys.cfg
12:06:55 <Yexo> cookies are always welcome :)
12:07:09 * Vitus gives Yexo some cookies.
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12:24:56 * andythenorth ponders more industrial trams
12:39:38 <Fixer> I logined at webtranslator to correct few bugs in translation but it says 'You have to be an editor before you can make modifications' i can't press 'save', why?
12:40:22 <Ammler> because you aren't a editor?
12:40:40 <Ammler> I guess, you need to register at translators@openttd.org
12:40:48 <Ammler> but that should be explained there somewhere
12:40:56 * andythenorth wonders about passenger trams
12:41:15 <Fixer> i accepted some translator status...
12:42:03 <Fixer> why? i can't make chabges :)
12:43:22 <Fixer> some guy translated End of shared orderss as just end of orders so it is very confusing
12:44:12 <planetmaker> but why can't you make changes?
12:44:44 <planetmaker> did you change anything?
12:45:35 <planetmaker> and... is the button only gray or really inactive? Gray is the default colour there...
12:46:00 <Fixer> 'You have to be an editor before you can make modifications'
12:46:41 <planetmaker> hm, long time ago I got that status. It needs approval by the translation's manager
12:46:51 <planetmaker> Did you only apply or did you already get response?
12:46:55 * andythenorth ponders battery electric trams
12:47:22 <Fixer> planetmaker: emailing that guy right now
12:49:07 <Fixer> in overall ukrainian translation is nice except of that 'end of shared orders' (which is epic fail) :-)
12:50:04 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20077 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Codechange: remove the space between "open" and "ttd" in the title screen
12:51:35 <Ammler> I could read the msg before asking silly questions :-P
12:51:40 <Fixer> anyone knows how to edit that *.lng files?
12:51:59 <Ammler> Fixer: that is binary, you need to edit the txt
12:52:19 <Alberth> and re-generate the .lng :)
12:52:39 <Yexo> Fixer: if you want to help with translations, go to translator.openttd.org
12:53:25 <planetmaker> Give him a bit of time to reply
12:55:32 <planetmaker> nearly generally translations are made via that webinterface, though and not supplied as patches (which you might get when editing the txt file)
12:56:54 <VVG> new heqs trams are very very nice!
12:59:13 <VVG> i also found that any changes or just pressing apply button in newgrf list will trigger that dbset wagon speed limits bug :(
13:00:56 <Ammler> Yexo: Alberth or whoever uses hg :-) ^
13:03:56 * andythenorth ponders sugar cane tramways
13:04:01 <andythenorth> *very* long trains
13:04:11 <andythenorth> 1900t or so, up to 1km length :o
13:04:25 <planetmaker> That'd be over-doing it a bit, eh?
13:04:39 <andythenorth> I think I'll provide a scaled down version :)
13:06:20 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: yexo * r20078 /trunk/.hgignore: -Codechange: update .hgignore (Ammler)
13:08:00 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: frosch * r20079 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange [FS#3922]: Add helper functions to deal with the 192-256-magic of vehicle movement.
13:11:47 <Wolf01> I'm thinking about waypoints for road vehicles with a state machine like the road stations to make complicate road junctions like cloverleaf, half cloverleaf, highway service stations and highway ramps
13:12:38 <frosch123> Wolf01: discuss that with eddi :p
13:12:59 <Wolf01> is he thinking the same feature?
13:14:21 <svip> Now I crashed four trains.
13:14:56 <Wolf01> stop trains before making stupid things which can crash trains
13:15:54 <svip> Had I done what I thought I was doing, there would have been no problem.
13:16:07 <Wolf01> now you have to purchase again the trains, wait for clearing the crashed cars and you waste time and money
13:17:38 <svip> I wanted to get rid of the trains anyway.
13:17:45 <svip> But the wait is of course a downside.
13:29:41 *** Fixer is now known as Fixed
13:29:44 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause: what do you think about my think to improve road features?
13:30:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the idea? or that you want to implement it?
13:31:17 * andythenorth ponders adding specific trams for Sugar Cane
13:31:24 *** Fixed is now known as Fixer
13:31:25 *** Fixer is now known as Fixed
13:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't see the value in that, unless you make sugar cane plantations only produce cargo once per year
13:32:17 <andythenorth> 40 wagon trams :)
13:32:20 <andythenorth> will look awesome
13:34:21 <andythenorth> these are australian cane tramways though
13:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> although none of the official languages of south africa actually abbreviate to "za" :p
13:34:55 <planetmaker> Fixed: Zuid Africa ;-)
13:35:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you kill the 64k vehicle limit ;-)
13:36:10 <andythenorth> FIRS doesn't feature sugar cane yet anyway, so no point right now
13:36:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: is that really tram? I'd attribute that to NG
13:36:23 <Fixed> i know some guy with same nickname tneo and he is from SA
13:36:40 <andythenorth> most of the things I've looked at as trams are 600mm gauge or so
13:36:51 <andythenorth> which includes those sugar cane rails
13:36:54 <planetmaker> I know a guy named tneo and he's from NL ;-)
13:36:59 <andythenorth> >750mm and that's probably ng
13:37:15 <andythenorth> but also in gameplay, the trams are really neat as they only take up 1t :)
13:37:36 <tneo> Fixed, is always asking where i'm from planetmaker ;-)
13:37:48 <planetmaker> damn. Sorry, tneo :-)
13:38:49 <Fixed> planetmaker: i mean football :)
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13:40:43 <andythenorth> sugar beet trains are also very long
13:41:17 * andythenorth ponders Farm Tram
13:41:34 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I wonder where your Zuid Africa comes from. In Dutch it's definitely Zuid-Afrika, in Afrikaans it's Suid-Afrika and in English it's South Africa.
13:42:21 <planetmaker> Rubidium: it comes from my limited knowledge of the Dutch language :-)
13:42:40 <planetmaker> obviously I failed to extrapolate
13:44:04 * andythenorth puzzles over trams
13:45:13 <andythenorth> current HEQS tram length is designed to a cunning schema devised by Eddi|zuHause to fit into n tiles
13:45:29 <andythenorth> I want to keep that, but also add facility for extra long trams :)
13:45:30 <Wolf01> Is it possible to have a function in the newgrf gui which replaces the grf of a currently loaded configuration with their newer version if there is one?
13:45:54 * andythenorth ponders 'double headed tram' with double capacity, and slightly reduced speed
13:45:56 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if you want to have more than 15 wagons, you need a new vehicle
13:46:56 <andythenorth> might as well just build two trams as have one double headed one though :o
13:47:04 <andythenorth> except for the look of the thing :)
13:47:37 <frosch123> Wolf01: no, because the "newer" is unknown
13:48:05 <Wolf01> same ID but date>cur_date
13:48:17 <Wolf01> upgrading ECS is a pain
13:48:29 <Wolf01> they should have a file creation date
13:48:53 <Wolf01> which is not the date of download, at least on windows
13:48:56 <frosch123> are you using the old newgrf gui?
13:49:16 <frosch123> how is it a pane then?
13:49:35 <Wolf01> 2 lists one above the other and the info panel on the right
13:49:49 <frosch123> filter with the date from the grfname, remove the old stuff, add the new stuff
13:50:18 <Wolf01> yes, I'm doing so, but then I need to reorder the ECS grfs by ID
13:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> they should have a file creation date <-- that only reasonably reliably works if you downloaded it in a .zip/.rar/...
13:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> btw. what happened to that "ask to replace if adding a grf with same id" patch?
13:53:30 <Wolf01> oh, that patch would be useful
13:53:50 <andythenorth> do we need road types to build non-electric tramways?
13:54:42 <Rubidium> *if* you want road + electric trams + non-electric trams: yes, if you want road *or* electric trams + non-electric: no
13:55:16 * andythenorth waits for road types in that
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13:56:18 <andythenorth> there was a list of suggested road types somewhere
13:57:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: in peter's pages in the wiki
13:57:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause made it
13:57:38 <planetmaker> at least some basic, pre-liminary definitions
13:58:55 <planetmaker> indeed. Good posting
13:58:58 * andythenorth thinks what road types would be useful for gameplay
13:59:41 <andythenorth> does road type limit allowed vehicles, or vehicle limit allowed road types?
14:02:00 <andythenorth> road can be overbuilt with tram tracks....that could make road types somewhat complex :O
14:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think we need 3 roadtypes per tile
14:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause> or two roadtypes and a railtype on level crossings
14:03:05 <andythenorth> how many do we get?
14:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> currently it's not possible to do tram-only level crossings
14:03:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: so... why does it need _3_ road types and not two?
14:04:11 <andythenorth> dirt road crossing road + tram
14:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: e.g when you want tram+trolleybus+road on one tile
14:05:06 <planetmaker> uhm, tram + trolleybus... what's the difference?
14:05:12 <andythenorth> how is trolley bus / electrified tram implemented?
14:05:21 <andythenorth> is there 'road + wires' and 'tram + wires'
14:05:27 <andythenorth> or is there a type 'wires'
14:05:54 <planetmaker> probably the tile just needs a 'catanery' flag
14:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i think none of that is implemented yet ;)
14:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: not the tile, each road bit
14:06:24 <andythenorth> sorry, how *would* it be implemented :)
14:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> or you need a routine like the rail-catenary-display
14:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> which decides upon adjacent tiles, which wires to show
14:07:13 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that sounds more reasonable
14:07:42 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need one bit for catenary additionally to the two roadtypes
14:07:42 <planetmaker> But having two kinds of overhead wires on one road tile sounds like a practical impossibility
14:07:50 <andythenorth> also seems pointless
14:07:51 <planetmaker> not implementation-wise, but concerning realism
14:08:01 <andythenorth> trams / trolley bus can use same o/head wires
14:08:14 *** Fixer is now known as Fixed
14:08:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: my point. And then a tile only needs one type of catanery flag
14:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's tricky, because trams typically have one overhead wire and the rails as second wire, but trolleybus must have two overhead wires
14:09:25 <andythenorth> ummm....is that some realism creeping in :P
14:09:29 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but how to decide which takes precedence?
14:09:41 <andythenorth> just decide we don't care :P
14:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think we should ignore that for gameplay purposes ;)
14:10:01 <andythenorth> it's like worrying about the axle-loading vs rail weight in rail types
14:11:58 <andythenorth> so should I draw any diesel trams for HEQS, or should I save them for the grand unveiling of road types (at some unspecified future date)?
14:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a long standing consensus that different rail-catenary systems like 25kV AC/50Hz, 15kV AC/16.7Hz, 1.5kV DC etc. should not be represented in the game, and it hasn't hurt the game one bit...
14:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the same should hold for tram/trolleybus
14:18:10 * andythenorth thinks resounding silence on diesel trams makes them a 'no' for now
14:18:29 * andythenorth wonders if DanMacK can be persuade to draw some steam engines
14:18:37 <elho> .oO( and then there are cable cars )
14:18:41 <svip> Speaking of crossing tunnels; when is the underground view coming?
14:19:38 * elho thinks svip should to hide, too ;)
14:20:01 <svip> Underground view is a billiant idea.
14:20:15 <svip> We just need to change some fundamentals.
14:20:19 <elho> svip: would that also show the tunnels of mines? :P
14:20:47 <svip> And you would save money building tracks through existing holes.
14:21:20 <andythenorth> then we could have 'depth' for water as well :P
14:21:51 <elho> you could let a city that you do not like disappear in the underground by some underground tram works
14:21:55 <svip> Alternatively; do it like Sim City does.
14:22:16 <elho> and then rename that city cologne ;P
14:22:41 <svip> Just sayin'; openttd lacks a subway.
14:27:06 <elho> but seriously i'd be overly happy the day we get diagonal bridges/tunnels, if ever ;)
14:28:59 <VVG> a new condition for growing towns - frequent good service of sewers, so that town won't choke in trash and such
14:29:40 <Rubidium> SimCity didn't have subways
14:29:56 <Eddi|zuHause> SimCity 2000 did
14:30:09 <Rubidium> but he didn't say that
14:30:20 <Rubidium> OpenTTD 2000 does have subways as well (it just isn't released yet)
14:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't really into OpenTTD
14:31:26 <Rubidium> hmm... or is it: SimCity to SimCity 2000 is like Transport Tycoon Deluxe to Locomotion
14:31:51 <Rubidium> oh, again a software product with unfollowable version numbers
14:32:37 <Rubidium> it's just like 3 -> 95 -> 98 -> 2000 -> 7 ?!?
14:33:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it was 1 -> 2000 -> 3000 -> 4
14:33:15 <elho> except that there is reason to care about the software in openttd's case ;)
14:33:51 <VVG> or actually, 4 deluxe was a proper version, plain 4 more like a beta :)
14:34:06 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
14:35:02 <glx> Rubidium: and 7 is 6.1 ;)
14:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not touched any windows 7 yet, i can't tell what "real" version it reports
14:36:44 <Eddi|zuHause> in XP it was like 5.1 or 5.2
14:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so vista was some 5.2-rebranded-to-6?
14:38:07 <Sacro> XP is 5.1, Vista is 6.0, 7 is 6.1
14:38:32 <Alberth> RB just proved his point :)
14:39:05 <svip> VVG: Societies was not a real SimCity game.
14:39:17 <svip> Rubidium: You forgot Windows/386.
14:39:46 <svip> Which should easily confuse some as there were a 2000 edition.
14:39:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ME was version 4.something
14:40:14 <Sacro> 4.1998 i think was 98 SE
14:40:41 <svip> But NT is basically OpenVMS 1.5
14:41:12 <svip> And honestly, I am not a big VMS-man.
14:41:26 <glx> 7 should have been 7, but for compatibility reason it's 6.1
14:42:05 * andythenorth would be happy with the 'conditions for town growth' part and could leave the rest of it :P
14:42:55 <svip> Also, Windows 8 sounds like it is just going to be 6.2
14:45:35 <Wolf01> does the "stations' name from nearby industries" interferes with "oil wells can also increase in temperate"?
14:46:07 <Wolf01> I noticed the first one has a parameter which has something to do with it
14:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: it's great, makes for a good renumbering round in another 5 years
14:47:16 <svip> Who cares? OpenTTD runs on Linux.
14:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> after all, versions like "12" or "15" start to sound silly, so they can go back to 7 again
14:47:23 <svip> Like I need Windows in 5 years.
14:47:38 <svip> Well, they haven't used 4, 5 and 6 yet.
14:47:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there's "you", and there's "the rest of the world"
14:48:01 <svip> I do not trust the 'wisdom of crowds'.
14:49:36 <elho> svip: trusting the stupidity of the masses is a better choice indeed ;)
14:50:52 <Vitus> Found (possible) graphic glitch with sprite font. Now I'm not sure whether it's problem with sprite font itself or OpenTTD. So I'll rather ask here.
14:50:56 <VVG> I finally hit 1k trains! 1st time ever.
14:50:59 <Vitus> Take a look at this picture:
14:51:26 <svip> (has to be said in caps)
14:51:42 <planetmaker> svip: Webster> #openttdcoop Records: Clients: 24 | Trains: 2001 (PSG#186) - 2522 (PZG#5) - ( 3000 (PSG#180) logic net) | Single cargo type output: 100,983 (PSG#176) | World Pop: 3,075,319 (PSG#101) <-- :D
14:52:22 <Yexo> Vitus: I'm tempted to say "error in sprite font"
14:52:31 <Yexo> Alberth: what do you think? ^^
14:52:32 <svip> When can openttd run on 4 cores?
14:52:41 <svip> :( It saddens me that only one core is running this game. ;-;
14:52:44 <planetmaker> svip: when you ported it
14:53:10 <svip> I'm even greater than I thought I was.
14:53:13 <planetmaker> Yexo: one might believe. But... how?
14:53:26 <planetmaker> if the size is defined for a sprite...
14:53:56 <Yexo> the height of a font sprite is set, I think those sprites are highser then the default size
14:54:18 <planetmaker> ah. *That* is something I never checked so far
14:54:22 <elho> planetmaker: still 1k by one person is more impressive than 2k by a couple in coop ;)
14:55:21 <svip> Been a while since I've played OpenTTD MP.
14:55:23 <VVG> 100k single industry cargo output? I have a save of that game, there are 6 sawmills. Was it redone before finishing?
14:55:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <svip> When can openttd run on 4 cores? <-- when you start 4 games simultaneously
14:55:35 <svip> Maybe because I am sucky.
14:55:39 <svip> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, but...
14:56:24 <elho> you could play all climates at once!
14:57:07 <svip> OpenTTD could do with a campaign.
14:57:42 <planetmaker> VVG: no, it's 6 sawmills afaik
14:57:47 <planetmaker> one cannot output that much
14:58:02 <planetmaker> but all at one place so-to-speak
14:58:23 <planetmaker> VVG: basically it depends upon how things are processed and when
14:58:31 <Vitus> There's limit of about 2200 items of cargo per tile
14:58:39 <Vitus> At least for classic industries
14:59:37 <VVG> Hehe, seems i just found one more goal for my game!
14:59:43 <elho> Vitus: is that per tile of industy or per industry
14:59:50 <frosch123> Vitus: where did you got that limit from? :)
15:00:07 <Vitus> It was discussed on forums somewhere
15:01:21 <frosch123> ah, for primary industries
15:01:30 <frosch123> but that limit is not per tile
15:01:32 <Yexo> Vitus / planetmaker: after looking more closely I think it's a bug in openttd
15:01:56 <Vitus> Frosch, it's for secondary industries afaik
15:02:10 <Vitus> Unless Factory is primary industry :)
15:02:11 <frosch123> no, secondary industries have 64k limit
15:02:42 <VVG> Is that a hard limit not dependant on anything?
15:02:45 <Yexo> planetmaker: I take opengfx as font, pause the game so "**PAUSED**" is shown in that bar
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15:03:09 <Yexo> the capital P has 2 pixels above it in medfont.pcx, but only 1 pixel in the bar in openttd
15:03:23 <Yexo> so if a sprite used the upper 2 pixels then it's 1 pixel too high for that bar
15:04:10 <Vitus> Frosch, are you sure it's the case even for original industries?
15:05:41 <frosch123> ok, thinking again, for original industries: primary industries have limits up to 15*128*9 per month (for coal mine, not using cheats)
15:07:22 <frosch123> seconary have about 65536*9
15:08:00 <frosch123> that is too much, where is error?
15:08:05 <Vitus> Hmmm, I cannot seem to pass 255*8 or 255*9 limit with coal mine
15:08:10 <frosch123> oh, i need to divide by 165
15:08:26 <frosch123> those are the limits
15:08:52 <frosch123> primary industries have limits per industry, and they vary when using cheats, and likely also when using smooth economy
15:09:28 <Vitus> Well, I could get 2550 tons of wood from Forest with smooth economy (w/o cheats)
15:09:50 <planetmaker> Yexo: so... the font using its upper two pixels is the problem?
15:10:20 <Yexo> planetmaker: no, that should be fine, I think the problem is that openttd doesn't recognize that fact
15:10:25 <Yexo> or maybe that is the problem, not really sure
15:10:38 <frosch123> for smooth economy primary industries have limit 255*9
15:10:53 <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, that is the problem
15:11:08 <Vitus> Well, Forest is exception afaik
15:11:10 <Yexo> font height for medium font is 10 pixels (constant in openttd code, can't be changed)d
15:11:15 <Vitus> It can produce cargo up to 10 times a month
15:11:25 <planetmaker> and... that's a problem with the OpenGFX sprites then, yes?
15:11:27 <Yexo> height of the sprites in opengfx is 13 pixels
15:11:37 <planetmaker> uh... how very bad :-(
15:11:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: default game randomises primary production on map generation
15:11:56 <Yexo> normally 1 pixels on the top and 1 pixel ont he bottom are free to draw on (for accents)
15:11:56 <andythenorth> when does the monthly production change cb run?
15:12:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: only smooth economy does
15:12:01 <Yexo> but opengfx uses 2 pixels on top
15:12:36 <planetmaker> hm... I don't like where that goes
15:12:36 <frosch123> if (((indspec->behaviour & INDUSTRYBEH_BUILT_ONWATER) != 0) && j == 1)
15:12:38 <frosch123> new_prod = Clamp(new_prod, 0, 16);
15:12:47 <Yexo> however from the screensot it looks like Vitus is using original ttd sprites, no idea which font
15:12:53 <frosch123> ^^ haha, smooth economy is sooo broken wrt. new industries :p
15:12:58 <Yexo> so possible the original grahpics have the same problem
15:13:11 <Yexo> Vitus: did you use any newgrfs to make that screenshot?
15:13:28 <Yexo> and original ttd grahpics as base set?
15:14:33 <andythenorth> frosch123: relying on either of the built in economies just makes my life harder :)
15:14:58 <andythenorth> I'm pretty much resigned to constructing everything from scratch for FIRS :)
15:16:18 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, default economy is quite fixed, newgrfs are based on that, can change a lot, but with lots of work. smooth economy is quite nice for default industries, but totally fails for new industries (it is also disabled for them once a grf defines a production callback)
15:16:19 <planetmaker> he... weren't you actually asking me whether that's an OpenGFX bug? ;-)
15:17:03 <frosch123> see above two lines from the code: smooth economy limits the production for the second cargo to 16 when the industry is build on water :p
15:17:20 <andythenorth> to prevent passenger over-production for oil rig
15:17:22 <frosch123> it is meant for the default oilrig, to limit passenger production, but it is totally flawed for newgrfs
15:17:24 <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, exactly the same can happen with opengfx
15:17:55 <planetmaker> But it feels like "not a baseset bug"
15:18:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: resp. randomising values at map generation...I *could* use the first run of the production cb. Does it run at start of month or end? I can never remember....
15:18:36 <frosch123> i guess it runs on the 1st of a month, but not immediatelly at game start
15:19:13 <andythenorth> it would be annoying if player builds a route to a nice mine then 30 days later....'boom'...my randomising code halves production :P
15:19:25 <frosch123> anyway, industries need some on-build-callback
15:19:28 <VVG> 65536*9 is that for default secondaries? 65k 9 times per month?
15:19:36 <frosch123> andythenorth: it also needs to work for ingame industry creations
15:20:12 <frosch123> VVG: yes, for long months and very constant cargo feeding
15:20:46 <elho> i always wished for boom-economy, like randomly increases production, never lowers ;P
15:21:00 <Vitus> pm: I can confirm that exactly the same happens with OpenGFX
15:21:03 <andythenorth> elho: try FIRS, only wait for v0.3
15:21:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: I have found several times a need for on-build cb
15:21:33 <andythenorth> I can see two routes....
15:21:46 <VVG> andythenorth: do FIRS non-primaries have any limits?
15:22:03 <andythenorth> (1) for randomising, production change cb already does everything I need, so make it available (run once) on map generation
15:22:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: the question is, what stuff needs to be set on construction
15:22:31 <andythenorth> (2) add an on-build cb with ability to modify arbitrary properties same as for modifying vehicle properties
15:22:38 <andythenorth> (also set values in registers etc)
15:22:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, not map generation. when a industry is placed: on map creation, random event, player action, ..
15:22:54 <andythenorth> so on-build, not map generation
15:23:28 <andythenorth> (2) is similar to cb36 in my view
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15:24:21 <VVG> Is there some doc to look them up?
15:24:23 <andythenorth> depending on how many output / input cargos, there will be a limit of 9 * (65k / n) per month
15:24:26 <bschindler|home> Hi - small question. I just installed the generic tramways set, but I'm completely unable to give the tramway orders to stop at specific stations... what do I have to do?
15:24:42 <andythenorth> bschindler|home: are you using drive through stations?
15:24:58 <bschindler|home> andythenorth: I wasn't able to build anything else
15:25:19 <andythenorth> bschindler|home: hmm, dunno then. sorry
15:25:25 <VVG> simple one - are you on pause?
15:25:31 <andythenorth> VVG: n depends on how cargo is processed
15:25:46 <bschindler|home> VVG: no, I'm not... I can build tracks
15:25:49 <Yexo> trying to order passenger trams to a 'truck' stop or cargo trams to a passenger stop?
15:26:15 <andythenorth> VVG: the limits are hard limits in OpenTTD on the amount of cargo that can be processed
15:26:22 <bschindler|home> oh, I might have built cargo stations
15:26:27 <bschindler|home> I didn't know there is a difference
15:26:35 <andythenorth> VVG: can you read nfo?
15:26:45 <Yexo> bschindler|home: right-click buttons to get a tooltip
15:26:53 <VVG> andythenorth: So, in best case it woulb be 9*65?
15:27:04 <andythenorth> let me take a guess
15:27:34 <VVG> i just skipped the k part :)
15:29:02 <andythenorth> VVG: I can't quite be bothered to do the maths, but I think the best case could be 9*65k
15:29:27 <andythenorth> it's definitely at the far end of the few-some-many-lots scale
15:29:49 <andythenorth> I will be impressed if you can achieve it
15:30:02 <andythenorth> it's about half a million tons per industry per month
15:31:00 <VVG> i barely managed to get stable 15k output...
15:32:02 * andythenorth wonders what industries need to set upon construction
15:32:33 <andythenorth> 14A 14B 14C already cover some things
15:33:27 <elho> rise stationspread, have a station with a gaziliion tracks in each having a looooong train stopped shortly before arrival. rack up and have them all start at once via the train list green flag ;)
15:34:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: things to set: prop 12, 13 (prod. multipliers) definitely.
15:35:00 <andythenorth> special flags, possibly
15:35:36 <andythenorth> and write to any register / storage
15:36:10 <andythenorth> possibly restricting layouts might be useful, but it seems like a separate problem needing it's own cb
15:36:48 <svip> By the way; what helps getting cities to grow?
15:38:15 <VVG> i guess it will take atleast 1024x1024 map, fully covered with one primary industry type, with all cargo routed to single secondary to get to production limit
15:47:21 <elho> ok, so a tile is divided into 16 coordinate units. a horizontal rail track is 16 units, a diagonal one 8. twice a tick a train moves one unit for every 192 [256] 3/4*speed (in kph) straight along the coordinate axis [diagonally].
15:48:00 <elho> frosch123: care to comment on that ^ did i get it correctly? you fixing my bugreport on the contradicting comments in that code makes you look like the right person to do so ;P
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16:11:46 <frosch123> "twice a tick" looks wrong
16:13:41 <elho> Train::Tick() calls TrainLocoHandler() twice. i assumed that Train::Tick() is called once per tick?
16:14:43 <VVG> ghee, i always mix entrance and combo signals, then wonder why built track setup doesn't work :(
16:20:26 <frosch123> elho: yeah, might be :)
16:21:13 <frosch123> andythenorth: restricting layouts is a construction check (cb 29) and does not deal with on-build stuff
16:24:24 <andythenorth> frosch123: I guess you mean cb28?
16:24:43 <andythenorth> and yes, I agree
16:25:16 <frosch123> those special flags which have an effect after industry construction seems to be already covered by several callbacks
16:25:28 <frosch123> so, i can only find prop 12, 13 and production rate
16:25:46 <frosch123> 12 and 13 should also be changeable during production callbacks
16:26:18 <frosch123> so in total, maybe we just need some special flag to call one of the production change callbacks also on construction
16:27:14 <andythenorth> production change is familiar, already documented, and presumably it's only a small change?
16:28:27 <frosch123> well, but 29, 35, or just separate number with same behaviour?
16:29:17 <frosch123> and how to set prop 12 and 13? likely via some special result and 100+ registers, but it should not be limited to 2 output cargos by design
16:34:12 <frosch123> hmm, though most of the 29 and 35 results do not make sense :p
16:34:21 <frosch123> at industry construction
16:40:52 <andythenorth> frosch123: just do same as 29/35, make it a new number. Forget modifying 12/13, just use the methods in cb 29
16:41:07 <andythenorth> only 'close now' seems to not make sense to me :)
16:41:16 <andythenorth> the other results would make sense
16:41:39 <frosch123> to me only 0f makes sense :)
16:41:59 <frosch123> so i don't think using the same as 29/35 makes sense
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16:42:38 <frosch123> 12/13 should actually be set by 14c, but it is not really extensible
16:43:01 <andythenorth> I could happily use 0D / 0E to provide some variation in production amounts
16:43:08 <andythenorth> simple random varact 2
16:44:15 <frosch123> there is no difference between using 0d/0e or 0f and putting 15 or 17 in reg. 100
16:44:47 <andythenorth> just a simpler varact 2
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16:45:08 <frosch123> depends what you consider simple :)
16:45:19 <andythenorth> could generate value 15 / 16 / 17 from random, but it's a more complex varact 2 than generating random and checking range
16:45:51 <andythenorth> make 15, add round(random (2))
16:45:58 <andythenorth> hmm, not too complicated
16:46:25 <frosch123> anyway, 12/13 is the harder task
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16:46:46 <andythenorth> I can't think of a genuine use case for modifying 12/13 in my plans
16:46:50 <frosch123> unless, you do everything via production callbacks, in which case they are not needed at all
16:47:21 <andythenorth> I can think of cases for it, but they could already by handled by action D or whatever it is that skips sprites
16:47:26 <andythenorth> (I never use them)
16:47:33 <andythenorth> I prefer varact 2
16:47:52 <andythenorth> modifying production multipliers depending on economy would be the use case
16:49:58 <frosch123> well, the advantage of 12/13 vs. production callback is, that the industry can show the right production of last month just from the start
16:50:05 <frosch123> and not only after one month
16:50:40 <andythenorth> if equivalent of cb29 was available on construction, would that not be the case?
16:51:35 <frosch123> cb29 does not set 12/13
16:52:03 <frosch123> you cannot change those in game. either you set them via action0, or you leave them 0 and do everything via production callback
16:52:11 <andythenorth> no but would set the 'other' multiplier?
16:52:31 <frosch123> production mulitplier is boring, isn't it'?
16:52:46 <andythenorth> badly named and hard to understand
16:53:16 <frosch123> cb 14c is designed to specify n output cargos, but there is no way to set production rates for them
16:53:33 <frosch123> nor can the production callback deal with them :)
16:53:38 <andythenorth> that would a problem if anyone ever used cb4c
16:53:49 <andythenorth> I remember a case....
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16:54:05 <andythenorth> harbours / warehouses that have random or customisable cargos
16:54:14 <andythenorth> could be done with action D or whatever, but would be fugly
16:54:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: note, i am not planning on adding support for more than 2 output cargos, but it should be kept in mind when adding new stuff :)
16:55:53 <andythenorth> also....another use case (plausible, but dunno if I'll do it): customising farm production according to altitude
16:55:58 <andythenorth> or snowline / desert etc
16:56:11 <andythenorth> again could be done with monthly production change, but is fugly
16:56:29 <andythenorth> I thought 2 output cargos was a hard-limit?
16:56:49 <frosch123> depends on the definition of hard :)
16:57:06 <frosch123> most hard is that there are lots of placed in newgrf specs where you can only access 2
16:57:10 <andythenorth> set design is better against tight constraints anyway
16:57:34 <andythenorth> I think there are better ponies to catch
16:58:00 <andythenorth> more input cargos would be possibly useful, but I can forsee the result...
16:58:17 <andythenorth> ultra-realistic production requirements, very boring to have to deliver so many cargos all at once
16:58:38 <planetmaker> a everything supplies and accepts everything economy!
16:58:41 <Rubidium> oh, then I'll wonder when ALPS (keeping with Andy's 4 letter acronym set names) is finished
16:59:30 <andythenorth> I can see it now...car plant: steel, glass, tyres, machine parts, tools, chemicals, paint, plastic components, wire, silicon chips, fabric, nylon, fuel
16:59:49 <Rubidium> Andy's Little Pony Set
16:59:59 * andythenorth has to leave for a while now
17:00:17 <Rubidium> someone has fallen of his chair and rolls on the floor now?
17:00:20 <Prof_Frink> Alps is next Friday.
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17:01:25 <planetmaker> I'm still sitting safely enough ;-)
17:02:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: cb would need to run after construction succeeds, not before
17:03:03 <andythenorth> for access to registers etc :)
17:03:17 <andythenorth> does it run when industry is built, or when construction stages are finished?
17:04:27 <frosch123> i am talking about industry is built, not construction finished
17:04:44 <frosch123> btw. you can already use the choose random colour callback to initialise registers
17:04:56 <frosch123> just return callback failed, if you do not want to change the colour
17:06:19 <andythenorth> and yes - when built makes most sense
17:08:57 <VVG> one more achievment for me - 20k production value
17:11:34 <VVG> i have an old ugly hub, used by a lot of trains, that i need to rebuild. it need complete overhaul, i have no idea how to do it wihout stopping trains :(
17:11:56 * andythenorth is afk for an hour
17:12:03 <andythenorth> looking for ponies :P
17:15:59 <elho> VVG: those are the interesting projects that make the game such fun ;)
17:16:38 <svip> There should be achievements in OpenTTD.
17:18:12 <elho> .oO( "ultimately most complex track layout award" )
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17:19:27 <elho> but the other part makes more of a point, some kind of architect mode to pre-plan large projects. some compromise between build while paused cheat on and off :)
17:21:31 <VVG> yeah, you make a model what you want your tracks to be like, then turn on that mode and the tracks magically morhp bit by bit into that model, without pausing and without breaking actual routes, so that trains don't get lost. :)
17:22:23 <Alberth> it just needs a lot of magic, and some person to implement it :p
17:23:55 <Alberth> why not do it realistically, and use paper and pencil, and work out a plan beforehand?
17:24:46 <Alberth> always nice to use realism as argument against an idea :D
17:24:56 <VVG> actually, i do it the realistic way - build for current needs, then get a headache trying to expand :)
17:25:53 * Alberth finds that the best way to play openttd :)
17:26:35 <VVG> currently i hit a wall that i need magic to overcome :)
17:26:40 <frosch123> yup, mainlines are ugly
17:26:44 <elho> Alberth: we wan't to do it realistic and have a 3d cad tool for it :P
17:27:07 <Alberth> you are in luck, openttd is 2d :)
17:27:33 <elho> it is 3d. it has z values
17:29:08 <elho> it is discrete however and has weird constraints that the cad software shall know
17:31:34 <elho> VVG: it would be fine if it was not building magically but just giving you an overlay "plan" to follow
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17:33:28 <elho> but you could come to that plan without terraforming the heck out of the landscape just to realize you forgot something and need to make some part 2 tiles longer moving half of the contruction by that offset
17:36:27 <VVG> it looks like i don't know quite a bit about balancing, my trains obviously prefer one lines over others :(
17:37:21 <VVG> i so many times had to rebuild exactly because of the reason you stated...
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17:40:12 <elho> there could also be templates that you can construct and store once and recall later. for all those recurrent patterns that one keeps using.
17:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> # Pa ... Pa. Pa. ... pa ... pa. pa.
17:40:38 <Eddi|zuHause> # Pa. Pa. Pa. Pa. pa. pa. pa. pa
17:40:46 <Eddi|zuHause> # Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa Pa. pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa.
17:40:55 <VVG> there is a copypast patch for that, which, if i recall correctly, devs do not want to include, forgot the reason
17:40:55 <Eddi|zuHause> # Papapapa Pa. papapapa pa
17:41:05 <Eddi|zuHause> # Papapapapapagena. papapapapapageno.
17:41:32 <planetmaker> I think for Eddi's singing there's also a copy&paste patch
17:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> well... it's mozart's fault...
17:43:07 <elho> you named your 1 year old that was just sitting at the keyboard mozard? ;P
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17:44:01 <elho> VVG: it does sound a bit ugly one has to admit. if that templates however went into the overlay plan...
17:45:52 <elho> oh, there's indeed gena and geno hidden between all those pa's :)
17:45:54 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: translators * r20080 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:54 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:54 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
17:45:54 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by alyr
17:45:54 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: irish - 14 changes by tem
17:45:56 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 changes by Tucalipe
17:45:56 <CIA-9> OpenTTD: serbian - 1 changes by etran
17:46:44 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: well, that's the name of the two people singing ;)
17:49:01 <elho> but before i did not read past the first few pa's :)
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18:00:43 <elho> Alberth: the funny thing is, i have kind of been doing the paper thing. not to plan a specific thing, but to grasp how tracks work in the game. and ultimately build in better tays :P
18:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i tend to have the game paused a lot, scroll around, and suddenly "see" the right track layout...
18:08:18 <Alberth> I always just build on the spot, starting to modify it until everything is connected again. I never build the same layout.
18:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably would play more right now, if cargodist had savegame version compatibility
18:10:32 <Alberth> i have once drawn a complicated terminus station, 4 tracks in & out, but I have forgotton how to do it again :)
18:17:10 <Ammler> did planetmaker already ask, if someone likes to join a fast competition game?
18:17:33 <planetmaker> but we have some slots still free.
18:17:55 <planetmaker> and join the only available server
18:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't play competitively
18:19:06 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: try it :-P
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18:31:06 <bschindler|home> Hi - one question: I have seen a number of games where some roads where used to expand the area where a factory takes it's input (i.e. iron ore etc). How is that done? I tried building roads, but that didn't do it
18:31:10 <bschindler|home> may be some grf?
18:31:57 <VVG> you can expand station size, and either walk stations, or ctrl+click to build station
18:33:06 <VVG> roads do nothing to expand a station catchment area
18:33:43 <bschindler|home> I just looked at game 150 from openttdcoop
18:34:20 <VVG> that might be eye-candy station tiles, which look like road
18:34:45 <bschindler|home> okay, that's true. But then again - there are some stations quite far away form the factory
18:34:52 <bschindler|home> I don't get how they are able to deliver
18:35:09 <VVG> that's due to increased catchment area, default in ottd is 12, coop guys sometimes use up to 64
18:36:05 <bschindler|home> hmm... where is that setting?
18:36:34 <VVG> increase catchment area, build one tile of a station near industry, then use ctrl+click to build a station anywhere inside that limit - when ctrl+click to build a stations you'll get a dialog asking if you want to create a new station or expand alreay built one
18:36:50 <VVG> advanced settings -> stations -> max spread area
18:37:20 <bschindler|home> okay... let me try that
18:40:04 <bschindler|home> ah, it works. thanks
18:47:18 <Wolf01> it should be integrated with the mousewheel on titles rolls up the gui and other things such "to sell a part of train drag only that part on the respective area" etc
18:49:26 * andythenorth just restarted too many devices too many times
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18:59:33 <darkomen> I want to make a goal server project, anyone can help me?
18:59:58 <darkomen> like the awesome luukland servers
19:00:55 <frosch123> noone can help you, goalservers are one-man-shows
19:01:30 <darkomen> One man shows... Why?
19:02:13 <__ln__> ookay, i still remember planetmaker's wi-fi password. what can i do to reallocate that block of my brain to store something more useful...
19:02:22 <frosch123> goalservers are non-public modifications of the game
19:02:47 <Wolf01> you may need to ask who made them
19:03:35 <darkomen> Mods are good for games, see Half Life or Warcraft3...
19:04:08 <Wolf01> but if the only person who has the mod is the author you need to ask him
19:04:34 <Alberth> non-public modifications means that nobody has the source except the modder.
19:05:34 <darkomen> So you think making a non free-source mod is bad?
19:05:57 <Alberth> for someone that also wants to start such a server, yes
19:06:00 <frosch123> you started with good or bad. we just said that noone can help you
19:06:48 <frosch123> it is non-public, so you have to start from scratch and do everything yourself
19:07:00 <frosch123> you cannot just run it
19:07:28 <Sacro> OpenTTD should be AGPL :P
19:07:47 <frosch123> this discussion always runs the same way :p
19:08:05 <darkomen> The fact is that you dont want to help me when you say that this servers are "One man shows"
19:08:21 <Alberth> what kind of help do you expect?
19:09:08 <Alberth> if you think we will do the server mods, you are wrong
19:10:46 <darkomen> I dont want you to do that ;) Just, if you can give me a way to do that...
19:11:13 <Wolf01> I did: contact the author
19:11:27 <Alberth> source is freely available, wiki explains how to compile.
19:12:51 * frosch123 still does not know what kind of help darkoman expects
19:12:54 <Alberth> I don't know how to run a server, but I am sure someone here can help you when you reach that point
19:13:12 <VVG> coding wise, how hard is it to add to entrace signal pbs ability?
19:13:16 <Alberth> frosch123: most likely neither does he
19:14:20 <darkomen> Anyone know how to contact the authors of this mods please?
19:14:33 <Wolf01> VVG you need to add a button, a new signal, give it pbs ability and add it to the list of the presignals influence list :P
19:14:58 <frosch123> join their servers, and ask. or check whether they have an account at tt-forums
19:15:17 <Alberth> darkomen: they tend to have a server, a forum, an irc channel
19:15:45 <ccfreak2k> How exactly would a PBS pre work?
19:16:23 <VVG> i imagine it having one more condition before turing green - having green exit signals.
19:17:10 <ccfreak2k> But what situation would it be useful?
19:17:33 <Alberth> ccfreak2k: slow trains down in the block before?
19:17:43 <Wolf01> do I need to add GLOBAL to make the hotkey work without toolbar?
19:17:46 <Wolf01> like: autoroad = 3,GLOBAL+SHIFT+A
19:18:07 <VVG> i'm thinking of simplifying prio setups a bit
19:19:59 <Wolf01> oooooh finally a global hotkey to open autoroad :D
19:22:31 <darkomen> If devs of OTTD have free source code of a mod(a citybuilder/goal code) , can them include in an official version of OTTD?
19:22:32 <Wolf01> and with autoroad = 3,GLOBAL+SHIFT+A,A the road toolbar doesn't close anymore when you press A by mistake :D
19:23:08 <Alberth> darkomen: depends on how good the patch is
19:23:49 <Alberth> darkomen: at least theoretically that would be a possibility yes.
19:24:34 <Wolf01> and it depends on how many bugs you fix, the less lines of code the best, etc etc etc
19:25:00 <Alberth> darkomen: however to do things properly, you need to make several deep changes, I think. I'd be surprised if they did that all correctly
19:25:21 <Alberth> one semantical change per patch
19:26:26 <Alberth> so a lot of patch files :)
19:26:53 <Alberth> assuming the other devs agree with it of course
19:27:44 <Alberth> that would also need a lot of discussion
19:28:35 * frosch123 does not know goal servers in any detail, so no idea
19:29:13 <darkomen> that means it's the devs of OTTD who choose what changes will be accepted on OTTD? And not the community? :S
19:29:33 <frosch123> but assuming it contains some league table on some website, it does sound more like some external tool like ap+ or so
19:29:56 <frosch123> darkomen: of course!
19:30:06 <frosch123> the maintainers decide what they want to maintain
19:30:33 <frosch123> you will not find any project doing it different :)
19:31:03 <Yexo> darkomen: if a large enough portion of the community agree they want to do it differently they can take the source code and start a new project based on openttd
19:33:06 <darkomen> ok.. But if the major portion of the community disagree with the devs?
19:33:39 <Wolf01> Yexo, if I need to add a "comma" or a "period" hotkey I must write COMMA and PERIOD since the hotkeys are CSV?
19:33:42 <frosch123> then they start their own project based on ottd, and the old project will die somewhen
19:33:57 <Yexo> the either the devs are left with a game nobody plays anymore or a lot of players decide it wasn't that important
19:34:17 <frosch123> or they reunite somewhen
19:34:30 <Yexo> Wolf01: COMMA is supported, PERIOD not (yet)
19:34:33 <frosch123> or they continue in parallel (like emacs and xemacs)
19:34:41 <Yexo> there are several other special keys that are not (yet) supported
19:35:19 <darkomen> ok, the transition between TTDPatch and OTTD is same?
19:35:49 <Alberth> transition how? I don't understand that sentence
19:36:03 <frosch123> not exactly, they started of completely independely, but moved towards each other
19:37:03 <darkomen> Thank you all for your replies men ;)
19:37:04 <Yexo> well, only moved towards eachother in features, not in codebase
19:37:17 <Alberth> yeah, a merge will never happen
19:41:32 <Wolf01> Yexo, like ALT? When the list will be completed could you send it to me so I can write an help file for the italian users (me and... me)
19:42:25 <Yexo> that list and all 'normal' keys like a-z and 0-9
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20:02:06 <Wolf01> META should be the "home" key, or not?
20:03:31 <Wolf01> I don't have the ANY key whick key should I press instead of that one?
20:04:00 <Xaroth_> ctrl would be my second guess :p
20:04:02 <Yexo> meta is the windows key, or whatever you want to call it
20:07:40 <Wolf01> ah, good... just committed the changes to my webserver :P
20:08:17 <elho> in x super usually is the windows key. as in superfluous (thus easy to remember :P)
20:09:07 <Wolf01> ok, now the small overview should be complete
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21:36:16 <Nite> i need help, my "find server" button doesen't do anything at all ...
21:40:54 <elho> the quit button seems to work
21:59:51 * elho wonders whether vehicle data on the wiki is taken straight from the data files or from the gui
22:01:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i just researched this: the world cup 1994 was held by 24 teams in 9 stadiums in Boston, Chicago, Dallas, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York, Orlando, San Francisco and Washington, 2006 it was 32 teams in 12 stadiums in Berlin, Dortmund, Frankfurt a.M., Gelsenkirchen, Hamburg, Hannover, Kaiserslautern, Köln, Leipzig, München and Stuttgart. 2010 has 32 teams in 10 stadiums in Bloemfontein, Cape Town, Durban, Johannesburg x2, Nelspruit,
22:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Polokwane, Port Elizabeth, Pretoria and Rustenburg
22:29:29 <elho> it rather looks like the latter :/
22:30:34 <elho> are the any tools to dump data from grf (not newgrf) files?
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22:32:06 <elho> or some hidden console command to dump engine data without going through the rounding wonders of ConvertSpeedToDisplaySpeed() et al?
22:35:43 <Rubidium> "cat src/table/engines.h"
22:37:04 <Yexo> elho: the data for the default vehicles can be found in the openttd source code, not in the grfs
22:46:11 <elho> and as i suspected given that ((640*10/16)*103)>>6 == 643, the wiki is wrong and the lev4 actually only does 640 kph
22:47:08 <Rubidium> the wiki should show what the game shows
22:47:14 * elho is glad he did not need the hexeditor for that ;)
22:47:43 <elho> i have not tested, but i think it does not even do it for mph
22:50:09 <elho> the wiki sais 402 however, ((640*10/16)*1)>>0 does not produce that though
22:51:00 <Rubidium> so they just used the simple but incorrect km/h -> mph conversion
22:51:16 <elho> ah, switching is easy. my levs in game indeed show 400
22:51:56 <Rubidium> also ((640*10/16)*103)/64 isn't quite the correct formula as it assumes no rounding is done when it is done
22:52:24 <elho> not sure whether changing it for the lev4 in the wiki makes sense - and i am not wading though all enginges now ;)
22:52:26 <Rubidium> floor((floor(640*10/16)*103)/64) would be accurate
22:55:57 <elho> if only all vehicles used kph internally, that double conversion nonsense could be skipped at all
22:57:32 <elho> ooooh sweetness, owens tt station does list the real values it seems :)
22:58:01 <Rubidium> that double conversion was removed a while ago, but after lots of protests it was readded
22:59:27 <elho> OwenS: if you are the owen of owen's tt station, then i just made you a compliment :)
23:00:19 <elho> i'll try to type owen's then in the future :)
23:02:27 <elho> Rubidium: developers should not listen to the stupid masses ;P
23:15:43 * Rubidium wonders whether elho implicated himself by saying that
23:19:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> that double conversion was removed a while ago, but after lots of protests it was readded <- i presume that "lots of protests" actually came from one or two people
23:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> my first suspect would be a certain canset developer
23:21:12 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: don't know the exact numbers...
23:21:46 <Rubidium> although, how many people do you think complained (in one way or another) that we enforced OpenTTD's license for the i* thing?
23:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> copyright is kind of a different league than rounding issues ;)
23:23:14 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: i would have expected most players complain that their trains were "slower" :P
23:23:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: still, what order of magnitude do you think "complained"?
23:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: from that time i vaguely remember that trains tended to be 1km/h faster. e.g. 100km/h instead of 99km/h
23:24:24 <Rubidium> and that the IC225 didn't go 225 km/h anymore
23:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it takes only one person for a copyright claim to be valid
23:25:16 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I think you haven't understood my question...
23:25:39 <Rubidium> it's not how many people it took to take it down, but how many people complained after it was taken down
23:26:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the forum is full of those posts...
23:26:24 <elho> Eddi|zuHause: of course depends on the case, but maglev is 640kph instead of showing 643kph, so everyone into using the fastest possidle train would feel the need to complain ;)
23:27:25 <Rubidium> elho: the speed in OpenTTD's source/NewGRFs isn't in kph!
23:27:26 <Eddi|zuHause> my expectation is that a forum catches about 1% of the total community
23:27:36 <Eddi|zuHause> so 3 would escalate to 300 easily
23:28:46 <Rubidium> it's stupid though that people still sign that petition
23:31:25 <Rubidium> elho: it's in mph/1.6 or mph/3.2 or mph/0.8 or mph/8
23:31:31 <elho> Rubidium: i dunno nor care about newgrf and am only talking about trains. and _orig_rail_vehicle_info[] is commented as "max_speed (kph)"
23:31:58 <Rubidium> then that comment is totally wrong
23:32:06 <elho> it lists 640 for the lev4
23:32:16 <Yexo> it's actually in mph/1.6, kph = mph/1.609344
23:32:28 <Yexo> it's _nearly_ the same, but not exactly
23:32:38 <Yexo> and the differences are especially noteable for higher speeds
23:33:22 <Rubidium> and you seem to be looking at some old sources as well
23:33:59 <Rubidium> the comments in trunk are correct
23:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.0 branch is over three months old
23:37:41 <Eddi|zuHause> more like four months
23:39:22 <elho> debian lenny has 0.6.2, i had to build that 1.0.1 backport first :P
23:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: a train travelling at near-light-speed
23:39:59 <Eddi|zuHause> which, in openttd terms is around 64000km/h ;)
23:41:28 <Fixer> use testing or unstable
23:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: together with the NAND signal patch this allowes pretty extreme logic gate magic
23:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> elho: debian is known to be 3 years behind, that's no excuse :p
23:42:13 <svip> Eddi|zuHause: Is there a page on this?
23:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> svip: either on the coop page or in the forum once was a post about a counter, an adder and maybe a fully featured microprocessor
23:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> built within an openttd game
23:44:05 <svip> So basically they make ALUs inside the game?
23:44:55 <elho> gives overflow handling a whole new meaning :P
23:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and the logic trains could be used for 7 segment LEDs, or simulation of DRAM cells
23:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause> they're slower but much smaller than SRAM cells, which consist purely of signals
23:45:57 <svip> This must be the least efficient microprocessor ever.
23:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but with signals you get problems with recursion depth
23:47:06 <elho> bah, freaking svn co just sits there
23:48:19 <elho> or rather hangs, doesn't care about ^C
23:49:36 <VVG> coop game 154 has a led counter
23:50:34 <elho> svip: long done. but co via http hangs likewise
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23:54:06 <elho> weird, works on another box
continue to next day ⏵
