IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-26
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00:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: you replied to "distribute cargo over several industries" with "you can use NewGRF for that", how do you think that should work?
00:23:58 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: when industry stops accepting cargo, it is distributed to other industries accepting it
00:24:43 <SmatZ> it was rather answer to the original problem, "Maximum Factory Goods Production??"
00:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's more like a workaround, not a solution
00:25:44 <Eddi|zuHause> ah i hate flies...
00:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i had my window open for half an hour today, and then i had 20 flies in the room which i can't get rid of...
00:26:58 <Eddi|zuHause> they sleep at night, but they are hellishly annoying in the morning
00:29:30 <SmatZ> should the cargo be distributed equally to all industries in the catchment area?
00:29:47 <SmatZ> or non-linearly with distance from station sign
00:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> my suggestion would be equally
00:35:10 <Eddi|zuHause> by distance doesn't make sense
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02:04:09 <welshdragon> For up to date information regarding the UK Bus Set and British Rail OpenTTD Set, /join #dragonforums
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02:25:11 <Mazur> Man. those PSG can really get intense.
02:26:59 <Mazur> E>ddi: Wrt those flies: I find sticky fly traps work wonders.
02:28:00 <Mazur> Keep those up for a bit, replace them now and again, and you're only left with remnants for the folded newspaper.
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04:12:56 <Gartral> ok, so what went wrong with waypoints? i cant make a train use a specific track/platform
04:17:06 <Mazur> Are you sure yours signals are right way round?
04:18:06 <Mazur> And that there are no 90 degree turns to them with Allow 90 degree turns: Off"
04:19:38 <Mazur> And that the waypoint is not joined to another waypoint to another platform?
04:20:49 <Mazur> Just three suggestions with my brain offline, because I'm on the way to bed and I don't want to start it up again.
04:22:14 <Mazur> Haven't even mentioned a split between waypoint and platform, yet.
04:29:25 <Gartral> Mazur: i've taken the time too tripple check, and yes, my trains are all avoiding waypoints when set to go via waypoint
04:30:05 <Gartral> even on dangerous "no signal" loops.. (which isnt feasable anyway.. )
04:31:47 <Mazur> Then I don't know, for now.
04:32:12 <Mazur> I only know, I hd no trouble with them.
04:33:30 <Mazur> Don;t use them much, though, prefer to depend on signals sorting traffic and "non-stop" to bypass intermediate stations, adn let them choose their own platform at will."
04:34:40 <Gartral> Mazur: problem with the last part is where im set up, i need the waypoints too rout 6 lanes through 1 bridge
04:34:50 <Mazur> And now the rest of my body will go offline, as well, as soon as it hits my bed.
04:35:20 <Mazur> Put a second one beside it.
04:35:47 <Gartral> Mazur: cant.. only found one good anchor point and the bridge i built soaked up 22 mil
04:35:52 <Mazur> Probably jammed all the time, no?
04:36:09 <Gartral> no.. just a long backlog
04:37:34 <Mazur> Use landscape to make second anchor point, and watch the backlog resolve itself in time. So a couple dozens trains go wandering for a spell, let them, they'll find their way home when traffic lets up.
04:38:26 <Mazur> That's one thing the Public Server Game teach you, jams can be fun.
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04:39:24 <Gartral> mazure, actually, they all wait their turns nice and neat
04:39:47 <Mazur> I followed one train with no room to its destination all over the map, sightseeing with it as it wandered around.
04:40:12 <Mazur> Then I don't see your problem.
04:42:15 <Mazur> They are behaving nicely, doing ass you require, except there are a lot of them waiting their turn.
04:42:37 <Mazur> say If htere is room enough, it'll resolve, if not, build more bridge.
04:43:19 <Mazur> Long bridge, if it costs 22 million.
04:44:11 <Mazur> Not sure what levelling a spot of terrain hat long would cost, instead, if it could be cheaper.
04:44:59 <Gartral> Mazur: goes from side with an island allll the way accross a 512x512 map
04:45:20 <Mazur> 500 tile length bridge?
04:45:44 <Gartral> something like that yea, maybe just short of 500
04:46:07 <Mazur> Like that makes a difference big enough to be noticed.
04:48:03 <Mazur> terraforming that to a landbridge must be cheaper, not sure what the cost is, though. 300+ per point? that woujld amout to 15,000-25,000, of the top of my offline head.
04:49:15 <Mazur> 150 k€, instead of 22 M€.
04:50:25 <Mazur> And you could signal it, so more trains at once on that line.
04:51:15 <Mazur> DOn't quote me, I'm only working with the pilot light of my brain.
04:52:08 <amalloy1> that figure is way off, fyi
04:53:32 <amalloy1> i just checked: raising a land bridge 30 tiles long (by only one unit of height) is1.8 million pounds
04:53:58 <planetmaker> with inflation on
04:54:26 <amalloy1> well i tested this in 1950. so inflation shouldn't be an issue
04:54:37 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 1800000
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04:55:38 <planetmaker> I don't care about money in this game ;-)
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04:56:22 <amalloy> no, but gartral was asking about building a bridge 500 tiles long and mazur claimed terraforming a land brige would be more than 100 times cheaper
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05:11:06 <mynetdude> Is there any way to easily troubleshoot a signal issue as to why a train will not go through? (other than obvious, missing tracks, etc?
05:12:26 <mynetdude> oh nevermind I think I know what the problem might be
05:13:09 <mynetdude> was due to the bridge not being electrified :) thanks
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09:02:52 <Mazur> That chinese bloke gets a lot of time-outs, don't you think? Wonder why _he_'s so badly behaved, then.
09:03:08 <Mazur> I mean that Ping character.
09:10:50 <planetmaker> that's definitely 5€ into the bad pun money box
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11:27:43 <TrueBrain> who knows good erlang examples of node creation and monitoring?
11:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> why can dolphin not edit mp3 tags?
11:36:53 <__ln__> because it lives in the water
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11:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> flies are evil...
11:41:27 <Eddi|zuHause> at least wasps have the courtesy to get out again...
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12:59:44 <oskari89> Hmm. How hard it would be to implement a height clearance (from water) for bridges to ships? And with those low clearance-bridges, some openable bridges with barriers to road traffic and rail traffic? :)
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13:01:41 <oskari89> Would need a new pathfinder for ships
13:06:08 <__ln__> Anything that requires introducing a completely new concept (such as openable bridges) must be hard.
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13:29:14 <Belugas> mister Terkhen, good day to you, sir :)
13:34:21 <__ln__> does someone want to explain why menu items and button texts are in infinitivo rather than e.g. imperativo in spanish?
13:38:31 <Terkhen> infinitive is the proper verb form to talk about things that you can do, for example: "puedo guardar o cargar la partida"
13:38:37 <Terkhen> any other verb form would sound strange
13:39:36 <__ln__> but by pressing a button you are ordering the program to do something, and imperative is used in many other languages
13:40:23 <planetmaker> __ln__, in German you can use both. It's just a matter of taste
13:40:33 <planetmaker> "Gehe zum Standort" "Zum Standort gehen"
13:40:35 <glx> in french "infinitif" is used too
13:42:06 <__ln__> ookay. i guess it's also a matter of what has become the common form to use in localized texts in the 80's or so.
13:44:11 <fonsinchen> Do we have a coding style requirement about maximum line width?
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13:45:59 <fonsinchen> We probably don't, but I'm inclined to introduce one, at least for my own code
13:53:07 <fonsinchen> I'm using 80 characters right now
13:53:20 <fonsinchen> I'm aware of the problem with different tab widths, though.
13:53:49 <Belugas> tron said once: as long as it fit a standard screen
13:54:33 * peter1138 uses 4 character tabs
13:54:45 <planetmaker> salut Belugas :-)
13:54:55 <Rubidium> what is a "standard" screen?
13:55:17 <peter1138> so about 280 columns
13:55:45 <Rubidium> oh, my math says 210 columns :)
13:56:04 <Rubidium> guess my "standard" screen has bigger characters
13:56:20 <fonsinchen> I don't like anything more than about 100, no matter what screen I'm using
13:56:35 <peter1138> hmm, my characters are 6 pixels wide, including spacing
13:56:41 <fonsinchen> Being able to read the text is not dependent on screen width
13:57:22 <peter1138> we'd have loads of broken up strings if we stuck to 80
13:57:53 <fonsinchen> We need some exceptions, obviously
13:58:39 <fonsinchen> like settings.h, english.txt and the like don't need to respect the line width
13:59:41 <Rubidium> neither the GPL boilerplate
14:00:29 <fonsinchen> 186 ... what a pain.
14:01:02 <peter1138> how about no line breaks, and let your editor do it ;)
14:01:05 <fonsinchen> but, OK, you don't need to read it that often
14:01:27 <fonsinchen> The indentations are lost in that case
14:02:24 <fonsinchen> We can also say "use common sense" and add X tabs when breaking a line
14:02:31 <fonsinchen> where X would need to be defined.
14:06:16 <Rubidium> I'd rather say 2, so it doesn't look like an indentation of an if/for/while
14:06:37 <fonsinchen> OK. And lets say "when breaking a 'if (...) {' line, put the '{' on another new line without the additional indentation.
14:08:15 <fonsinchen> same goes for "for" and "while" then
14:09:07 <Rubidium> not sure about that; would look a lot like a closing
14:09:45 <fonsinchen> IMHO it makes it much easier to spot where the condition ends and the conditional code begins.
14:09:53 <Rubidium> personally I'd do 'if (foo ||\n\t\tbar) {\n\tprintf("ouch\n");\n}'
14:10:27 <fonsinchen> OK, we can leave that one out, then.
14:11:29 <fonsinchen> I'll add those rules to the wiki.
14:12:16 <Rubidium> uhm, not quite sure whether it's a rule
14:13:27 <ccfreak2k> With the advent of pretty printers, can't you just run it through one before committing it?
14:13:57 <fonsinchen> Actually there'd only be one new rule: Line break => two tabs
14:14:51 <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: and then have a huge flux in the source code each time someone uses a slightly different version of such a tool?
14:14:52 <fonsinchen> the syntax of line-broken if/while/for can be derived from that one and the existing rule for if/while/for
14:15:28 <Rubidium> not to mention making some aligned stuff unaligned and thus removing all the overview the aligning gave
14:16:15 <Rubidium> and I've not yet found a "pretty printer" that doesn't mess up our coding style significantly
14:16:59 <fonsinchen> The two tabs after line break syntax is actually in one of the examples in the wiki
14:17:25 <fonsinchen> I'd still like to make it explicit.
14:22:47 <fonsinchen> btw: /* virtual */ ~FlowMapper() {}
14:23:12 <fonsinchen> or do I have to put the '{' and '}' on separate lines?
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14:32:37 <glx> fonsinchen: just do a quick search, but I think we use this form
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16:21:25 <Sacro> use presignals or path signals
16:22:36 <mynetdude> a presig as in entry/exit sigs?
16:23:25 <Progman> presignal might not work well there, maybe you need to use path signals
16:23:50 <mynetdude> ok thanks will try that
16:25:01 <peter1138> Sacro, openttd is complete now, yeah?
16:25:21 <mynetdude> hmm that was interesting
16:25:26 <peter1138> after i fixed that issue last night
16:25:48 <mynetdude> all paths are red but trains still pass through
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16:26:22 <Progman> mynetdude: if you use path signals you have to remove some signals as each signal is a stop location for a train
16:26:28 <Sacro> I might go after aquaeduct next :)
16:27:02 <Sacro> I would perhaps use Stop instead of Forbid
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16:31:38 <mynetdude> so if all signals are red does that mean the train will stop when the path isn't clear? I converted all the block sigs to path
16:35:56 <jack> path signals are red by default
16:36:51 <mynetdude> yeah just realized that, thanks hmm I can see its usefulness
16:37:20 <Progman> mynetdude: as I said you have to remove some signals
16:39:41 <mynetdude> seems to work though, I did remove some signals trains would just stop and not go
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16:41:38 <Progman> trains pass a path signal if they find a way to their target (until the next signal) and reserve this path
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17:21:38 <mynetdude> signals are complex in this game, I try to keep 1 or 2 trains per track :P
17:23:10 <planetmaker> 1500 trains on a 512^2 map!
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17:40:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19729 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3793]: The company value graph crashed the game when displaying companies with a huge amount of money.
17:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19730 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 12 changes by arnau
17:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: croatian - 23 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: dutch - 26 changes by habell
17:45:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 12 changes by glx
17:45:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 23 changes by planetmaker
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18:30:53 <Sacro> zomg a Rubidium on my bug
18:31:30 <Rubidium> yeah, if you don't flame him... I will
18:33:10 <Sacro> I wanted to flame him when he put RCs in the main release
18:33:18 <Sacro> there's a reason we have openttd-rc in AUR
18:33:33 <Sacro> you can have the stable, -rc and -svn all happily coexisting
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19:04:51 <mynetdude> does anybody know why oil wells have such a short lifespan? Oil rigs stay forever
19:07:02 <mynetdude> well ofc, so do coal and woods and iron ore, etc
19:07:14 <mynetdude> but oil rigs should run out too I think???
19:09:30 <mynetdude> even with disasters turned off?
19:09:37 <mynetdude> never seen a rig explode yet
19:09:50 <berndj> train A breaks down, blocking a route. train B, immediately behind, gets stuck. in some places they "bounce" between 2 signals until the route clears, but other times they get stuck "waiting for free path" looking the wrong way down a one-way PBS. train A clears and leaves, but train B now (permanently!) obstructs other trains. what am i doing wrong?
19:12:22 <planetmaker> berndj: in principle you do nothing wrong
19:12:44 <planetmaker> with the default settings that's what happens with path signals
19:13:01 <planetmaker> it doesn't happen with block signals
19:13:36 <planetmaker> you could, though, change your settings. I play with settings where trains never turn on their own
19:14:10 <planetmaker> <PublicServer> *** planetmaker has disabled wait_for_pbs_path, wait_twoway_signal, wait_oneway_signal, ai_in_multiplayer; enabled no_servicing_if_no_breakdowns, extra_dynamite, mod_road_rebuild, forbid_90_deg, rail_firstred_twoway_eol and set path_backoff_interval to 1, train_acceleration_model to 1 <-- one or more of those settings
19:14:37 <planetmaker> you can change them in the cfg (only for new games) or via console also for running
19:14:38 <berndj> planetmaker: please tell me how to do that! i just ragequit a game where two trains crashed because one auto-turned between my telling it to reverse and telling it to ignore the next signal!
19:15:19 <planetmaker> disabled means value = 0
19:15:28 <planetmaker> so in the console something like
19:15:36 <planetmaker> set wat_for_pbs_path 0
19:15:51 <planetmaker> and alike for the other signal wait times
19:16:04 <berndj> by console you mean the thing i got when i accidentally pressed '~'? :)
19:16:04 <planetmaker> console is opened with the key left of 1
19:16:18 <planetmaker> it's ^ for me, though
19:16:22 <berndj> got it. thanks, i'll try it
19:18:47 <mynetdude> too bad these options are not available via GUI ;)
19:19:13 <mynetdude> though I am sure the GUI would get too cluttered with every little option, I hate console
19:19:37 <planetmaker> there's no need to change them normally
19:20:27 <planetmaker> and if you do it wrong, you'll severely screw up your pathfinder(s) and then come back crying "why does xyz not work" or "why does train 0815 do weired things" ;-)
19:20:50 <planetmaker> it has a reason to not have everything available in the GUI. Though possibly a weak reason.
19:22:14 <berndj> looks like my issue is FS#2274. good to know i'm not the only one!
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19:40:00 <mynetdude> planetmaker that's not always a weak reason, you do have valid points
19:40:18 <mynetdude> but FWIW when things get really really effing screwed up I just start over and/or reinstall depending on how badly messed up it is
19:43:13 * Belugas just wrote a static constant array of multiple array in delphi...
19:45:55 * Sacro ponders learning delphi
19:46:15 <frosch123> what does it contain? the cases of the shedules test procedures and expected output? :p
19:51:36 <Belugas> actually, it's more a matrix of supported operations per gift card processor
20:09:58 <Belugas> hehhe... topic killer :D
20:14:36 <frosch123> eddi and pm are selling unfinished features :p
20:16:36 <frosch123> hmm, oh the caption uses thousand separators :o
20:16:37 <planetmaker> looks promising, frosch123 :-)
20:17:23 <frosch123> I guess also adding the grfname would make it too big
20:19:07 <planetmaker> frosch123: it might be in a box below the buttons?
20:19:14 <planetmaker> it would make sense to have the grf name
20:19:20 <frosch123> cool, you can drive the trucks on firs industries with the aligment tool \o/
20:21:07 <frosch123> [22:19] <planetmaker> frosch123: it might be in a box below the buttons? <- hmm, it is already in the caption?
20:21:25 <planetmaker> frosch123: you said it'd be too long there?
20:21:37 <frosch123> i meant per sprite in the list
20:21:48 <planetmaker> ah. No, the name needs not go there, too.
20:22:01 <planetmaker> at one place it's sufficient and one can easily click through those few
20:23:24 <andythenorth> the whole 'sprite picker' concept that is :)
20:23:38 <frosch123> hmm, the sheep are only one sprite :(
20:23:59 * andythenorth replaces trams with trucks
20:24:30 <planetmaker> lol @ frosch's sheep
20:25:03 <frosch123> and the flock pulls the fence with them
20:25:20 <andythenorth> well at least we're efficient on sprites :P
20:25:46 * andythenorth forsees a whole new feature in openttd: animate the landscape yourself
20:27:04 * andythenorth thinks "but no seriously, more narrow gauge trains are needed"
20:27:16 <andythenorth> my canset NG diesels are getting very old :(
20:27:26 <SpComb> animated sprite positions?
20:35:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19731 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Spritepicker to sprite alignment tool.
20:40:36 * planetmaker needs to pull trunk
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20:41:08 <andythenorth> one for the 'not worth even trying to fix' file
20:41:30 <andythenorth> The game placed the steel mill just recently.
20:42:56 * andythenorth considers abolishing the power station in FIRS. It really is pointless
20:43:36 <andythenorth> goes to the steel mill
20:44:39 <andythenorth> are there any sane reasons why make would use less CPU in a hg checkout compared to svn?
20:50:43 <SpComb> andythenorth: how much less?
20:52:03 <andythenorth> not sure, haven't run objective tests, but less
20:52:11 * Terkhen is happier since he uses distcc and ccache
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20:54:23 <andythenorth> frosch123: sprite picker == win
21:02:46 * andythenorth needs an intercontinental airport just for ENSP, and terraforms appropriately :P
21:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist probably helps with supplies
21:38:33 <OwenS> Hmm... any chance we will get one way tram lines at some point? I don't even care about overtaking, it would just make things more efficient
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22:04:01 <Eddi|zuHause> how should that work?
22:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> once upon a time it was specifically decided against one-way tram lines
22:04:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know why, though
22:05:48 <Rubidium> and trams not being built by towns
22:08:41 <OwenS> Trams picking the wrong route and blocking my trunk lines is evil
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22:49:39 <Visitor_58876> just an off the wall question anybody seen simutrans?
22:50:56 <Eddi|zuHause> no, nobody here has ever seen simutrans
22:51:07 <Visitor_58876> oh ok I won't ask why
22:51:16 <Visitor_58876> I'm just bored so I'll leave ya'll alone
22:51:41 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you want to ask a real question next time
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22:51:55 <mynetdude> yeah wouldn't that be the truth
22:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> truth is overrated
22:58:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and lying to tell the truth is called "irony"
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