IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-23
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00:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: i don't buy that argument... especially with objects it makes it sometimes very difficult to statically find the context
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00:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if i have "NFORenum v3.4.6 r2111" how horribly outdated is that?
00:39:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Sometimes objects link you to large amounts of state. Usually they don't
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00:50:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you have a good coding style, usage of global variables can also easily be spotted
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09:10:51 <KloBass> why does openttd still using midi?
09:13:09 <Terkhen> why is using midi a problem?
09:13:11 <Mazur> Because it's programmed that way? Dunno, just guessing here.
09:14:08 <KloBass> well midi seems a little bit obsolete now
09:14:22 <Mazur> Possible reason ro do so: because openttd wants to be free (Cue F. Mercury & co.) and it's easier to create free MIDI music.
09:14:43 <Eddi|zuHause> ... everything people don't understand is automatically obsolete...
09:14:48 <Terkhen> it sounds good for me :)
09:15:14 <Mazur> Yes, for me to. If I want to play piano, I just have to tell my MIDI.
09:15:50 <KloBass> well ogg is free also
09:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> damn you, now i have that song in my head
09:15:58 <peter1138> "tell your MIDI"...
09:16:18 <Mazur> Yes, but can you choose a random instrument and play it over ogg?
09:16:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: MIDI is an interface, not an object
09:16:24 <Terkhen> besides, OpenTTD original (midi) songs fit in 1 MB... a version of them in MP3 that is somewhere in the forums requires 72 MB
09:17:01 <Mazur> It's an interface to samples of instruments.
09:17:01 <KloBass> Terkhen: thats good argument
09:17:08 <Terkhen> I don't know if ogg compression is better, but I doubt it can reach 1 MB
09:17:14 <peter1138> no, it's an interface
09:17:32 <peter1138> samples of instruments is just one particular implementation of a midi-controlled synthesizer
09:18:15 <Mazur> If you insist, you're probably right, as I don't know mucch about the sound systems.
09:18:52 <Mazur> Can you control that synthesizer through an ogg interface?
09:18:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen roller organs controlled by midi ;)
09:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Mazur: you're asking the wrong question
09:19:33 <KloBass> but have to recompile my kernel :-D
09:19:42 <KloBass> i want that music back
09:19:44 <peter1138> (if i want a piano sound, i fire up pianoteq, which models a piano through complicated synthesis techniques... but absolutely no samples)
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09:23:04 <Mazur> Eddi|zuHause: Story of my life, I'm an ASS that way.
09:23:27 <peter1138> yeah, ogg is not an interface :)
09:25:15 <Mazur> Yes, I know, I formulated it totally wrong.
09:26:00 <peter1138> you can, however, implement a way to do that
09:26:07 <peter1138> it would be pretty pointless though
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09:40:43 <peter1138> sorry, you've had your quota :D
09:40:55 <KloBass> is there a way to tell trains to force ignore only one signal on their way
09:41:14 <KloBass> like add into goto goto here and ignore all signals you will meet
09:42:34 <SpComb> you shouldn't need to ignore signals like that
09:43:09 <peter1138> yeah, if you're ignoring signals, you're doing it wrong
09:43:57 <SpComb> like trying to build a railway network using only two-way basic signals
09:44:32 <KloBass> well if you have one tunnel like 170units long
09:44:56 <KloBass> you have to wait very long time before one train exits it
09:45:31 <Noldo> you want to send train to the tunnel ignoring signals
09:45:31 <SpComb> then you have a faster train and a slower train...
09:45:54 <KloBass> Noldo: i know but you have to click it manually
09:45:55 <Noldo> interesting solution to the tunnel problem
09:45:56 <peter1138> or a jam at the end
09:46:45 <Noldo> it would help if you could set the speed of the train while going somewhere
09:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i would love that speed setting
09:47:26 <peter1138> new order, max speed? :p
09:47:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "go via waypoint a, at max. 80km/h"
09:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it would be a per-order setting
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09:48:09 <KloBass> well it will not solve problem when you have one way rails and there is a big tunel over 150 titles your trains have to wait before tunel antrance because you cant have signals in tunel
09:48:39 <KloBass> so in entrance there is red all the time until train leaves tunel
09:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> KloBass: see, there is your solution, implement signals in tunnels
09:49:04 <KloBass> Eddi|zuHause: or make underground rails :) manually
09:49:16 <Noldo> Eddi|zuHause: where would you use that max speed setting?
09:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: in mixed passenger/cargo lines, when a fast train is scheduled to follow a slow train
09:50:43 <Eddi|zuHause> even more useful if maintenance cost were based on acceleration and speed
09:51:21 <Eddi|zuHause> a train going 80km/h would be way cheaper than a train accelerating to 160km/h and stopping all the time
09:51:56 <KloBass> is there ofical way to suggest improvment?
09:52:22 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, add a speed limit to each order complicates things
09:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that different than load/unload settings or scheduled times?
09:54:56 <peter1138> load/unload was always there
09:55:43 <Mazur> Moving blo9ck trains would obviate the need of all those complicated methods.
09:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> how is that an argument?
09:56:42 <KloBass> impossible features : • Underground stations/track/signals
10:00:00 <peter1138> that's the ultimate solution :)
10:00:20 <peter1138> just play locomotion to see it done badly ;p
10:01:37 <KloBass> but there is 50% done in tunel signals
10:02:34 <peter1138> yeah but it's probably useless
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11:21:39 <andythenorth> 'breakdowns off' makes for a nice train set, but is a bit weird
11:22:59 <peter1138> i tend to play with them off
11:23:06 <peter1138> breakdowns too (hurr hurr)
11:23:53 <planetmaker> breakdowns are annoying
11:24:21 <andythenorth> no breakdowns means far less depot building
11:24:38 <planetmaker> that's something you can force upon yourself.
11:24:40 <andythenorth> put that with a game where the majority of vehicles are losing money and everything's gone strange
11:25:26 <andythenorth> just feels a bit wrong
11:25:44 <planetmaker> I cannot agree quite :-)
11:26:03 <planetmaker> The "loosing" money is an aspect which happens quite frequently in feeder systems...
11:26:14 <planetmaker> And it's not really something bad per se, I think
11:26:27 <planetmaker> It's even realistc ;-)
11:26:35 <planetmaker> uh... there was it, that bad word :-P
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11:27:42 <KenjiE20> most of my games end up a bit like that, a few key cash cows fund the ones loosing
11:27:57 <andythenorth> no breakdowns also means no replacing vehicles, which is weird
11:28:03 <andythenorth> I have 95 year old ferries
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11:29:27 <andythenorth> I only turned off breakdowns because with PBS servicing can be a hassle
11:32:50 <Mazur> andythenorth: I had no troubles.
11:33:42 <andythenorth> it's fine if signals are placed carefully. But on single-track-with-passing-loops it can become a hassle, especially where space is tight.
11:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i find servicing annoying
11:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't fit in my networks
11:36:07 <Eddi|zuHause> and breakdowns are way too often
11:36:15 <andythenorth> I like RT3 servicing - it's just a thing that happens in stations
11:36:34 <andythenorth> add maintenance facilities to a station, the train gets serviced there.
11:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what i'd like to see is fuel distance and refilling time
11:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> especially for airplanes
11:37:26 <andythenorth> what would that do?
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11:37:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it would set a maximum distance between stops
11:37:51 <andythenorth> and if they run out of fuel, proceed at 3mph?
11:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the orders would be important, like for ships
11:38:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't set orders for stations further away than their fuel distance
11:39:05 <Noldo> maybe you could but they would turn back when noticing they can't make it
11:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> if an airplane has a distance of 300 tiles, you can't send it across a 2048 map
11:40:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it would also make a difference for steam engines with additional tender
11:41:01 <andythenorth> hmmm interesting
11:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> are you investing more weight and maintenance cost for fewer and shorter stops?
11:41:37 <andythenorth> On balance I like breakdowns on
11:41:46 <Eddi|zuHause> refuelling would work similar to loading, it takes a certain amount of time
11:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause> question is: should fuel distance scale with map size?
11:42:38 <Noldo> maybe that max speed setting could also play a part ;)
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11:43:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: no, it must be something static... there should be no "run out of fuel"
11:43:52 <Noldo> I meant like, takes more fuel to go fast
11:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't do that when you combine this with a limit for giving orders in the first place
11:45:37 <Rubidium> take more fuel, thus higher range but less capacity
11:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> would also give battery powered vs. diesel powered more strategic value. battery powered is cheaper, but rather low range
11:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and refilling takes longer with battery
11:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and electric doesn't need refilling at all
11:56:38 <peter1138> feel free to write these patches...
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12:38:50 <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, so your diesel train stalls because it's out of fuel - now what?
12:39:10 <ccfreak2k> Oh wait, I missed that part.
12:41:23 <peter1138> it'll have to run slowly, like not enough power up hill?
12:41:58 <peter1138> oh, if it can't run out of fuel... what's the point? heh
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12:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i said it should be a static limit on the orders, not with a dynamic "run out of fuel" element
12:42:31 <ccfreak2k> Maybe he wants to increase running cost to make deliveries faster.
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12:43:21 <peter1138> you could build a huge loop with 2 stations near each other
12:43:27 <peter1138> stopping off at stations in between
12:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> early propeller aircraft should not cross the entire map
12:46:01 <JostVice> is it possible to have two trains in a network that connects different towns using only one rail?
12:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you can still cross the map with inbetween stops
12:46:36 <JostVice> and having two platforms in each station
12:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> JostVice: it only makes sense if you have a double track section in the middle, not at the ends
12:47:25 <JostVice> soi would need to have double track everywhere
12:51:12 <JostVice> it is better to have double track and have them one-way only ?
12:51:38 <SpComb> JostVice: depends on how intensively you want to run the trains
12:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the double track serction can be as short as one train length, and should be one-way
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12:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> with two trains you need one double track section, with three trains you need two double track sections, and so on.
12:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> they should be evenly spaced, and the trains should have a schedule with waiting times at the end
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12:56:13 <nighthawk_c_m> Anyone here that could help me on a ECS problem?
12:57:57 <JostVice> one double track section in between two stations?
12:59:10 <Terkhen> nighthawk_c_m: we won't know until you tell your problem
12:59:47 <JostVice> I already have two platforms in the stations, and a section with double track, what sygnals should i put in that section and in the track? I guess normal two way block signals in the whole track, and entry presignals and exit signals ?
13:02:36 <nighthawk_c_m> I have a problem with the standard ECS Power plant - I only use the ECS Town and Basic Vector - settings are that mines dont die and max acceptance being 56k - in addition I have a patched version running with extended daylength - now the power station does not increase its output/need for coal.
13:04:56 <nighthawk_c_m> And in the ECS wikki is no explicit entry for the functions of the power plants
13:05:39 <Terkhen> IIRC daylenght patches caused problems in ECS; you should check the thread of your patched version
13:07:08 <nighthawk_c_m> I found nothing specific concerning ECS there - the problem seems to be based on ECS itself havinga fixed max acceptance instead of a tick based one
13:07:41 <nighthawk_c_m> still I'd like to know how to increase the Level: xx% (state) of the power plant
13:07:57 <nighthawk_c_m> What determins its production of power / usage
13:09:09 <George> nighthawk_c_m: amount of coal+oil waiting
13:16:32 <nighthawk_c_m> Can't be - amount is 65k for now three month in a row and it doesn't increase its usage
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14:31:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19697 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Add: sprite for NewGRF some debuging features
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15:21:04 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19698 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Add: macros to get the size/length of a variable within a class
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15:42:09 <Rubidium> oh, should've said andythenorth :)
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15:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that supposed to be a "bug" icon?
15:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks like a mutated ¥
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15:52:05 <planetmaker> it's an upward walking bug :-)
15:52:28 <planetmaker> and that looks quite useful, Rubidium.
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16:12:31 <Guest1009> Which namespace is used by default?
16:13:56 <Yexo> the self scope of the object you clicked on
16:15:44 <Guest1009> So after I do "using namespace std", there is no way to go back?
16:16:25 <peter1138> just don't do it :)
16:16:41 <Guest1009> Files I never even heard of refuse to compile
16:16:59 <Guest1009> Just typing std:: before every string and vector is a pain
16:18:01 <peter1138> greece to activate emergency loans... that sounds bad
16:18:24 <__ln__> Guest1009: you can say "using namespace std" inside a function's scope, too.
16:18:59 <SmatZ> also, why would do that before including any header?
16:23:56 <Alberth> we have very little use of stl in openttd
16:25:11 <SmatZ> we have our own Small* replacements :)
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16:29:08 <Alberth> we have very little use of openttd in openttd
16:29:18 *** Z is now known as Guest1016
16:31:10 <Alberth> although coming up with a good band name for so many letters is quite difficult :p
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16:47:05 <Guest1009> Was meant for a terminal
17:08:40 * Alberth puts a kettle on the fire for some tea
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17:30:05 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19699 /trunk/src/ (train_cmd.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Use InvalidateData at the refit window.
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17:42:23 <andythenorth> it's Friday, what shall we make?
17:42:50 <andythenorth> don't need another one yet
17:43:46 <andythenorth> I have some ships to paint, or I could do some FIRS work
17:43:55 <andythenorth> ships I guess :P
17:44:55 * Alberth gives andythenorth some bright coloured waterproof paint
17:45:25 <andythenorth> Can I hand out any useful bytes to people, maybe they'd code a few patches?
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19700 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 changes by josesun
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 11 changes by jpx_
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 3 changes by fanioz, prof
17:45:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by silver_777
17:45:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 7 changes by kwast, vitor_015
17:46:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: did you see the last useful patch proposal? :-)
17:47:14 <andythenorth> looks pretty awesome
17:47:23 <andythenorth> wonder if some of the values should be escaped
17:48:35 <planetmaker> that particular question was aimed at you :-) So... your personal patch, your comments welcome, I guess ;-)
17:48:48 <andythenorth> is that an available patch?
17:48:56 <andythenorth> or a proof of concept?
17:50:25 * andythenorth ponders default cargo for freight hovercraft.
17:50:29 <andythenorth> probably goods, not coal
17:51:05 <planetmaker> dunno wether that patch is somewhere. Ask Rb :-)
17:51:54 <andythenorth> Rubidium: the debug stuff in the screenshot looks useful. Is it something I can compile yet?
17:54:40 * andythenorth has overlooked something somewhere to do with goods
17:54:46 <planetmaker> Two cargo scheme:
17:55:06 <andythenorth> sometimes 1 crate of goods = 1t
17:55:13 <andythenorth> sometimes 2 crates of goods = 1t
17:55:39 <andythenorth> seems to vary by newgrf, but I haven't really looked into it much
17:55:49 <andythenorth> what should the default be?
17:57:19 <andythenorth> or do I misunderstand?
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17:58:01 <andythenorth> FIRS has goods at 8, so 2 crates = 1t
17:58:13 <andythenorth> but my vehicles are refitting at 1 crate = 1t
17:59:18 * andythenorth also ponders Mail refit for freight hovercraft
17:59:30 <Alberth> the roads seem to have more gravity
18:00:57 * andythenorth allows Mail refit on freight hovercraft. Don't be the victim of a slavish consistency :p
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18:01:52 <andythenorth> ah frosch123 is here :)
18:01:59 <andythenorth> and I have *no* questions for him
18:02:29 <frosch123> hello andy, moin pm
18:02:35 <planetmaker> moin frosch123 :-)
18:08:10 <peter1138> andythenorth, do you use the refit capacity callback?
18:08:46 <andythenorth> not for goods, if that's the context of the question. I'm wondering if I should
18:11:53 * andythenorth wonders if hovercraft are bouyant without the air cushion
18:12:50 <Alberth> of ocurse they are, otherwise they would sink if they have engine problems at the middle of the sea
18:13:18 <peter1138> ah, that rule is not applied to ships
18:13:41 <andythenorth> Alberth: thought they must be.
18:14:02 * andythenorth wonders if the loading state for 'overcraft should show the skirt inflated or not
18:14:07 <andythenorth> the easy answer is yes
18:14:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: otherwise you will not get permission to transport passengers across the channel :p
18:14:35 * andythenorth offers serious cookies for the first patch to let hovercraft dock on the shore
18:15:36 <andythenorth> conceptually it's almost the same problem as for seaplanes
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18:16:07 <frosch123> or helicopters vs. planes :)
18:16:25 <andythenorth> so....goes in the queue of things that need a state machine? :P
18:17:06 <Alberth> let us await the results of the first experiments :p
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18:19:09 <andythenorth> my my hovercraft are fast when you're used to normal ships :o
18:19:12 * Alberth takes the medium freight HC for coal instead of the large one :)
18:20:06 <frosch123> can you refit it do go double speed at double running cost?
18:20:26 <andythenorth> I'm just thinking about that
18:20:42 <planetmaker> frosch123: double running costs would be not proper. tripple or so.
18:20:56 <andythenorth> it's either: (A) faster unloaded, slower unloaded (B) refit for overload or overspeed or both (C) all of the above
18:21:22 <andythenorth> looks highly efficient
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18:21:55 * andythenorth sorts the offsets out and worries about the speed / capacity refits later
18:22:01 <frosch123> what is the intention of refitting loading speed?
18:22:30 <andythenorth> loading speed? No change. But there is the possibility of refitting for 'overload' (slower)
18:22:53 <andythenorth> maybe Terkhen could figure out the refit GUI first :P
18:23:29 <andythenorth> I'm fooling around with this refit stuff here, but when I eventually do BANDIT (truck set) I want it to be right, as it will be needed a lot.
18:24:09 <andythenorth> I kind of don't like the abuse of 'cargo type' for all these refits, but hey, it's here today and it works :P
18:28:34 <andythenorth> Terkhen: looks workable
18:29:53 * andythenorth imagines the right hand pane with '75t in 2 end dump trailers, company colour', '75t in 2 end dump trailers, alternative colour', '75t in 2 side dump trailers, company colour' etc. etc.
18:30:49 <andythenorth> I can imagine cases where livery, capacity (overload), speed (overspeed), number of trailers and style of trailer are all controlled by refit
18:31:03 <andythenorth> so there could be 50 combinations in that menu
18:31:12 <andythenorth> but if I did that I would be a silly newgrf author indeed
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18:33:27 <Terkhen> I'll post the diff / screenshots at the forums to get some feedback... I still have the feeling that I'm missing something
18:34:10 <andythenorth> it needs testing with some of the refit heavy sets like planeset, AV8 etc
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18:37:02 <frosch123> don't forget trains :)
18:37:19 <Terkhen> yes, I've checked how it looks with some of them, but not any proper testing
18:38:33 <andythenorth> well lets see what play testing turns up :)
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19:01:47 <planetmaker> hm, good question... can one do a livery refit without introducing a dummy cargo?
19:02:45 <andythenorth> on an engine alone?
19:03:26 <planetmaker> yes, that's my question
19:03:54 <planetmaker> also in order to still allow for "full load all"
19:04:02 <planetmaker> for the whole consist
19:05:23 <peter1138> maybe you can patch it to :p
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19:10:08 <frosch123> planetmaker: you need a cargo, but you can later set capacity to zero, so full load is possible
19:10:41 <planetmaker> full load all even? Hm, that's good news then
19:11:01 <planetmaker> But I guess I cannot refit to livery A and coal as two independent refits?
19:11:26 <andythenorth> there's probably a hack way to do it based on consist? I've done something with HEQS, but it's not a 'livery reift' as I (misunderstand) them
19:16:15 * andythenorth is now too tempted to use hovercraft for all freight shipping :P
19:24:30 <andythenorth> loading speed can be a bit interesting
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20:44:04 <andythenorth> Can I apply a patch as a grf?
20:44:59 <Terkhen> yes (as long as that patch is russian town names)
20:45:13 * andythenorth should stay out of the suggestions forum. It's unhealthy
20:45:43 <andythenorth> actually that one was in OpenTTD forum :P
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21:47:26 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19701 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_industrytype.cpp industry_cmd.cpp industry_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3787]: Check for industry availability more thoroughly and cancel object placement when selecting not available industries.
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23:10:23 <fjb> eGRVS horse carriages have some trouble with realistic acceleration for road vehicles.
23:11:40 <Terkhen> IIRC they have a TE or power of zero
23:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't that solved?
23:15:48 <Rubidium> depends on the exact cause; if the NewGRF defines it to be 0 vs the NewGRF doesn't define it
23:16:50 <fjb> I just see them crawl at 1km per hour.
23:17:55 <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: then talk to the author
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continue to next day ⏵
