IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-21
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07:22:35 <__ln__> planetmaker: full english breakfast only
07:23:28 <planetmaker> sure. Do you prepare that for me, please?
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09:36:03 <Eddi|zuHause> certainly not me...
09:36:58 <ibaxx> @eddi ich denke wir können deutsch reden?
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09:39:11 <__ln__> wenn ihr über vollen englischen frühstück redet
09:39:54 <ibaxx> willst bohnen mit würstchen?
09:44:20 <ibaxx> ich habe ein problem mit openttd... ich habe es jetzt länger nicht mehr gespielt und habe jetzt mal die 1.0.1RC geladen... nun hab ich auf leicht gestellt... spiel gestartet und eine schienenverbindung zwischen einer ölraffinerie und einem ölförderanlage gebaut
09:44:50 <ibaxx> zug erstellt, gesagt der zug soll erst fahren wenn er voll ist
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09:45:16 <ibaxx> nun kommts zu dem problem dass der zug nur minus macht?
09:45:23 <ibaxx> neues feature oder bug?
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09:46:21 <SmatZ> ibaxx: do trains load anything?
09:46:48 <SmatZ> do they have any (little) income when unloading?
09:47:15 <SmatZ> does the unload station "Accept" the oil?
09:47:48 <SmatZ> ibaxx: do you use Transfer orders?
09:48:20 <ibaxx> transfer to another station?
09:48:37 <SmatZ> ibaxx: there are load/unload order flags
09:48:50 <SmatZ> "Full Load", "No Loading", "Unload", "Transfer"
09:49:00 <SmatZ> try using Full Load at loading station
09:49:06 <ibaxx> full load at the oil field
09:49:22 <ibaxx> tried nothing and unload at the raffinery
09:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause> try "unload" and "no loading" at the refinery
09:50:01 <Eddi|zuHause> [turns to "unload and leave empty" or something]
09:50:30 <SmatZ> if the cargo starts appearing at the unload station, there is something wrong :)
09:56:31 <ibaxx> 9 wagons with oil full loaded
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09:57:29 <ibaxx> -10000euro profit of the train
09:58:33 <Eddi|zuHause> do you have any newgrfs loaded?
09:59:11 <ibaxx> do you thing there is the problem?
09:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> one grf may change the prices
10:01:36 <ibaxx> there is one with prices
10:01:44 <ibaxx> deactiveted and same problem
10:02:02 <ibaxx> i thought grf are graphics
10:02:27 <Rubidium> deactivating NewGRF doesn't magically make problems caused by games started with said NewGRF go away
10:03:13 <ccfreak2k> ibaxx, GRFs can do things like add new cargos.
10:09:26 <peter1138> weird, amazon 'spam' about transport tycoon...
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10:54:46 <Eddi|zuHause> "we'll do anything to get a story"
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11:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ... hm... i have the bad feeling my hard drive overflows tonight...
11:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> about 5 hours scheduled recording, makes ~10GB, but i have only 4GB free...
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11:42:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r19686 /trunk/src/network/network_content.cpp: -Fix (r15126): truncated archives were not detected when using zlib 1.2.3. This also fixes zlib 1.2.4 compatibility, zlib 1.2.5 is bugfree
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12:22:33 <planetmaker> SmatZ, do I read correctly that you now work around all gzip bugs?
12:28:07 <SmatZ> planetmaker: I hope so :)
12:36:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19687 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: desync when joining the game because of using the wrong variable
12:37:38 <planetmaker> very nice, SmatZ :-)
12:38:42 <planetmaker> oh, another desync fix :-)
12:38:55 <planetmaker> Rubidium, that's the one from the .stable?
12:39:27 <Rubidium> it's triggered in that case by the desync 'cache' checking
12:39:46 <planetmaker> I don't understand that
12:40:20 <Rubidium> the cache checking throws away the caches and rebuilds those, which means the server is "always" like a newly joined client w.r.t. some caches
12:40:42 <Rubidium> SpComb: yeah, maybe it's time to enable -Wshadow :)
12:40:44 <planetmaker> oh. And old clients are not?
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12:43:03 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes, old clients use the "cached" value which is different
12:44:52 <planetmaker> Well, I'm happy that you found it :-)
12:45:24 <planetmaker> How long does it actually take you to pin down this once you got all the data from the server?
12:47:35 <Rubidium> it was remarkably "simple" to reproduce it this time; on the first run it did create a desync which was actually comparing my run with your server's run, oh how happy I was I added the random state to the log
12:47:58 <planetmaker> :-) Good news that is then
12:48:12 <planetmaker> Given the size of the data it sounds like a very tedious job
12:48:23 <Rubidium> only problem was that reproducing took 5 minutes 2.5GHz fast-forward
12:48:39 <SmatZ> and 20 minutes with debug enabled :-p
12:49:25 <Rubidium> anyhow, then half an hours to (binary) disect the last dmp to load that still crashed
12:49:47 <Rubidium> should've done it linearly from the back, but that's hindsight talking
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12:50:47 <Rubidium> then it took a while to figure out that running it with -ddesync=3 did 'solve' the desync
12:51:31 <Rubidium> the case was reduced to something like 20-30 seconds by the way
12:51:53 <planetmaker> he... ddesync=3 solved that? :-)
12:52:30 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yes, both running with the cache clearing one meant my "server run" was in sync with your "server run"
12:52:37 <Rubidium> which gave us a clue
12:53:15 <Rubidium> and then it took like 10 minutes to figure out which part of the code "caused" (or in this case didn't cause) the desync
12:53:51 <Rubidium> followed by an hour trying some 'random' variables to see whether they differed
12:54:47 <planetmaker> ah, that way :-) ddesync changes caching behaviour :-)
12:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> should've done it linearly from the back, but that's hindsight talking <--- yeah, binary search is only optimal if the access time is constant ;)
12:55:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19688 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: run CheckCaches after the debug desync save, so we don't store just reset values in the savegame but the data from the previous tick
12:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> something that they forget to teach you in algorithm class :p
12:57:08 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: true, but even if access time was constant linear would've been faster; was like 3 savegames from the back against a few hundred savegames
12:57:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a reason why you do insert-sort and not quick- merge- or heapsort when you pick up cards
12:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: there's an "optimised" binary search for [quasi] open-ended intervals, where you start at the known end, then double the steps until you find a mismatch
12:59:03 <Rubidium> oh, actually it were only 42 savegames vs 3, but still linear would've been faster
12:59:40 <Rubidium> that would've been more steps as well :)
13:00:21 <Rubidium> nevertheless, after that reviewing the code, adding some debug output trying to figure out where the vehicle's variables differed
13:00:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there's a trade-off between best-case-optimality and worst-case-optimality ;)
13:00:37 <Rubidium> took about an hour till finding colourmap, but that was a dead end
13:00:48 <Rubidium> so started creating uncompressed savegames to compare
13:01:41 <Rubidium> now please tell me what field differs; hint: it's the VEHS chunk
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13:02:10 <Rubidium> anyhow, there were many many, so I started to make an uncompressed savegame for each tick to find the first occurrence
13:02:35 <Rubidium> that took lots of CPU and HDD (6.5 MiB per savegame, 2 savegames per tick; one with and one without desync)
13:03:10 <Rubidium> some days between load and desync
13:03:33 <Rubidium> luckily it happened on like the 5th day after the load
13:04:00 <Rubidium> almost 6 GiB of savegame
13:04:24 <Rubidium> so, found the first tick where things went wrong
13:04:37 <Rubidium> compared savegames, only 1 difference between them
13:04:57 <Rubidium> so backtracking what variable that belongs to
13:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you sound like you had fun today :=)
13:05:17 <Rubidium> I'm so happy that people don't use groups and FF FE is group id
13:05:29 <Rubidium> makes finding a reference point easier
13:05:45 <Rubidium> so then it's just counting (and counting right!)
13:06:41 <Rubidium> so after a mere 3 hours we had the first vehicle that showed the difference
13:07:55 <Rubidium> and then still an hour or so of incremently adding more debug output to figure out where the first difference shows up
13:08:54 <Rubidium> so... it took only 4 hours. But that's only because I had a command log and lots of intermediate savegames from the desyncing server
13:09:15 <planetmaker> well. That's one of the reasons we run it :-)
13:09:39 <Rubidium> that took a while to download, which I haven't even counted
13:10:03 <planetmaker> well, download, once triggered, luckily works automatically. Though I wouldn't want to do that at home...
13:10:19 <planetmaker> it'd eat 1/4th of my monthly quota ;-)
13:10:35 <Rubidium> luckily I don't have a quote, just "fair use"
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13:11:11 <planetmaker> I'm going to change that probably soon... I anyway want another telephone supplier, so I can buy all from one.
13:11:20 <planetmaker> also would make it cheaper.
13:13:22 <planetmaker> But: thanks for taking that time :-)
13:14:06 * Rubidium dislikes TV via telco, but then that might be because it's digital and digital is somewhat sucky in any case
13:14:19 <Rubidium> as in *extreme* lag when changing channels
13:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> my "full use" of my home line is probably less than other people's "fair use" :p
13:21:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, switching channels in digital is problematic, because there's only an I-Frame every ~1/2 second
13:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that gets added to the tuning delay
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13:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> but since the introduction of time-shift i hardly ever zap anymore anyway
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14:13:35 <peter1138> and over here we'll only have digital soon...
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15:03:11 <Pikka> has there been a renum update that doesn't error extended ids?
15:06:03 <planetmaker> unfortunately no.
15:06:15 <planetmaker> but you can of course de-activate error 141(?)
15:06:55 <Pikka> can you? I only know how to suppress warnings, not errors...
15:07:30 <planetmaker> let me check... you mean the high vehicle ID thing, yes?
15:08:14 <planetmaker> / disable the warning:for newgrfs
15:08:14 <planetmaker> / warning about high IDs
15:08:14 <planetmaker> /@@WARNING DISABLE 141
15:08:21 <planetmaker> ^ that's what works for 2cctrainset
15:08:35 <planetmaker> uhm... without the /
15:09:08 <Pikka> but it's an error, not a warning...
15:09:40 <Pikka> hmm, didn't used to be. :) but it works, thanks.
15:09:47 <planetmaker> you're welcome :-)
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15:44:44 <Peping> hello.. I know I asked few days back, but now I finally reached the point where I need it and I gave no idea how to do it. How can I as a dedicated server make a player pay for something? I'm coding a server and I have a chat command that needs that the player pays the required amount of money so it could execute.. Any helpful clues for me?
15:48:12 <planetmaker> Peping, you'll need modified clients for that
15:48:36 <planetmaker> unless you have an item ingame which has just that cost when purchased
15:50:06 <planetmaker> The only thing you can chose as dedicated server is to a) build things yourself via a dummy company or to refuse to execute certain do-commands by returning an error
15:50:40 <planetmaker> though... it might be an idea to generate do-commands which force the player to purchase something or so.
15:51:15 <planetmaker> but then... I've no idea ;-)
15:53:08 <Peping> do-commands you say? Can they make a player send money to a dummy company?
15:53:48 <planetmaker> good idea probably
15:55:28 <Peping> planetmaker: that's what I was told before.. but I completely missed the part of code mentioning docommands.. I spent like an hour or 2 figuring it out and found nothing.. thanks for telling me what to look for :)
15:56:48 <Mazur> SmatZ: Well, if you ask a computer the same question twice in a row, it's highly likely it'll answer the same, twice.
15:58:04 <SmatZ> I wasn't sure the string is the same
15:58:14 <SmatZ> because the program behaved as if it wasn't
15:58:19 <SmatZ> but, it was my fault afterall...
15:58:53 <Mazur> Oh, I usually try to lowercase the O, if it fails, it's a 0.
15:59:59 <Mazur> (Except emacs addicts.)
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16:02:12 <Peping> will I get stoned for programming on Windows? :D
16:03:03 <Mazur> Not necessarily, but you might want to get stoned beforehand.
16:03:05 <Yexo> yes, go program on a mac, we need a mac developer
16:03:39 <Peping> Macs are like really overpriced where I live.. No direct dealers here..
16:03:54 <Peping> and the translation to local language sucks
16:04:15 <SmatZ> they are overpriced everywhere
16:04:26 <Peping> so it's like only 0.5% of pepople have a Mac
16:04:38 <Peping> but here it's really terrible..
16:04:45 <Peping> more than anywhere else
16:05:07 <Peping> everybody 's reasonable and buys cheaper stuff :)
16:05:13 <Mazur> But you live in the land of Scotch, so stop complaining.
16:06:41 <Peping> Mazur: you almost hit the right spot on the map.. almost.. now head more east... now a bit south... Don't use the sharp end of that thing or you might kill me.. Yes.. That's the country.. Right there :)
16:08:41 <SmatZ> oh, it's you, with that warfare OTTD mod :-P
16:08:58 <SmatZ> he had khfree.net host too :)
16:09:00 <Peping> Yikes! You remember me ..
16:09:10 <Mazur> Misread your whois, which definately mentions the UK.
16:09:22 <Peping> btw I don't get the difference between DoCommandP and DoCommand?
16:09:52 <Peping> Mazur: not my fault.. Actually I'm connected to an urban Wi-Fi network..
16:10:19 <Yexo> Peping: use DoCommandP normally, DoCommand only from other Cmd-handlers
16:10:20 <Peping> where KH are the initials of our town
16:10:35 <SmatZ> calls to DoCommandP will be sent over network
16:10:37 <Peping> SmatZ: no, contrary to what the name would suggest :D
16:11:23 <Peping> google always helps, huh? :)
16:12:12 <SmatZ> I don't know many towns with those initials :)
16:12:18 <Peping> uncle google is never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around or desert you :)
16:12:28 <SmatZ> it could be Hradec Králové, but it would be HK then
16:12:58 <Peping> SmatZ: am I mistaken or you really know the towns?
16:13:29 <Peping> SmatZ: I mean the names
16:13:31 <SmatZ> Peping: I am from Czech Republic, so I kind of know those towns :)
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16:15:46 <SmatZ> actually I was to Kutná Hora last summer, but it was all day raining
16:19:06 <Peping> SmatZ: .. your nick is google-proof.. I was trying to find out from where you are. Will you tell me voluntarily? :)
16:23:42 <Peping> hm.. I mistyped the nick the last time.. got your last.fm profile and your libimseti.cz profile.. I can tell you that you've got completely different taste in music from mine.
16:24:39 * Belugas is bored bored bored... just took a look at the forums. boring boring boring
16:26:55 <Peping> SmatZ Here is something interesting. According to your libimseti you have a girlfriend/wife/f*ckmate or something, yet you still live with your parents.. Why is that? You're old enough to shoot for the stars without the help of your parents, aren't you?
16:29:18 <Peping> k this silence is getting awkward.. I'm leaving.. thanks for your help though :)
16:32:49 * SmatZ wonders when he logged in libimseti the last time
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17:34:58 <Terkhen> what is that car chassis doing up there? :P
17:38:06 <andythenorth> those ones are a form of bucket excavator
17:40:16 <bryjen> ah, I see. the last two pictures are chains-of-buckets
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17:45:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19689 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:45:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
17:45:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: hungarian - 17 changes by IPG
17:45:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: indonesian - 3 changes by prof
17:45:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by 2rB
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19:01:43 * andythenorth still isn't sure about hovercraft carrying bulk cargo :P
19:04:29 <Belugas> why not? would be cool
19:06:33 <Terkhen> I don't think they are made to carry that... what about having a lower capacity for bulk cargos?
19:08:55 <Belugas> well... initially, TTD's planes were refittable to coal and other unusual cargos :)
19:09:32 <Belugas> SOMEONE restricted them, on the Altar of realism sake
19:09:57 <Belugas> i'd say as long as users can have a benefit out of using bulk, why not? I sure would!
19:11:18 <glx> well you can use newgrf if you need :)
19:11:59 * andythenorth ponders some names
19:12:46 <Ammler> Belugas: russet refixed that :-)
19:13:10 <andythenorth> FISH mostly uses workaday names like 'Coaster (Large)'. That kind of works ok
19:13:23 <Belugas> Ammler, yes, and it's a good thing :)
19:13:23 <andythenorth> but "Hovercraft (Freight, Large)" is kind of suck
19:14:07 * andythenorth likes the HEQS style of names :)
19:14:27 <Terkhen> hmm... it is also true that transporting bulk cargos with hovercrafts does not sound that good gameplay-wise (why buy an expensive hovercraft to transport cargos that usually are well paid enough when transporting them via slower and cheaper vehicles?)
19:15:15 <Terkhen> because of that, I don't think it is worth to limit bulk cargos for hovercrafts
19:15:49 <SpComb> more trips per unit of time
19:16:15 <andythenorth> I won't limit them
19:16:52 <Terkhen> SpComb: of course, but I'm assuming a higher running cost too
19:17:16 <andythenorth> meh, now I have to think about cargo graphics :P
19:17:34 <andythenorth> so how does an open, flat decked hovercraft carry coal then?
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19:19:20 <andythenorth> seems nobody else knows either :P
19:19:41 <andythenorth> freight hovercraft will carry cargo in crates / and or containers
19:20:11 <andythenorth> should that be (a) a livery refit choice (b) fixed by cargo type (c) random ??
19:20:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19690 /branches/1.0/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs):
19:20:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
19:20:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Desync when joining the game because of using the wrong variable (r19687)
19:20:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Truncated archives were not detected when using zlib 1.2.3. This also fixes zlib 1.2.4 compatibility, zlib 1.2.5 is bugfree (r19686)
19:20:44 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Towns with 3x3 and 2x2 road layouts could not expand (r19683)
19:20:45 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: When joining a MP game all clients with company ID > 0 would be shown as if they were a spectator [FS#3775] (r19680)
19:20:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Client status was shown incorrect in the console (r19678)
19:22:08 <Terkhen> b) or c), a) makes lists larger :)
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19:52:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19691 /branches/1.0/ (5 files in 3 dirs): [1.0] -Prepare: 1.0.1-RC2
19:59:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19692 /tags/1.0.1-RC2/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.0.1-RC2
20:01:10 <Rubidium> yup, a number of annoying regressions of which I rather see some testing of the fix
20:01:35 <SpComb> and the zlib workaround?
20:01:46 <Rubidium> that I don't really care about
20:01:56 <Rubidium> except that it needs testing too
20:07:56 <Jolteon> So it says on openttd.org that you've got new users!
20:08:01 <Jolteon> How many more users did 1.0.0 attract?
20:08:06 <Jolteon> (or whatever else attracted them?)
20:09:03 <Rubidium> so far about 120 thousand downloads of OpenTTD
20:09:30 <Rubidium> against 150 thousand for 3 months of 0.7.5 is quite a lot
20:10:15 <Muxy> still habe problem with restart used remotely
20:11:29 <Rubidium> 0.7.0 "reached" 600 GiB in a month, we're now at 2.5 GiB in 20 days
20:13:05 <Jolteon> Rubidium: Impressive!
20:13:31 <Rubidium> the first page is OpenTTD downloads, the second is bananas downloads
20:13:48 <Rubidium> the green line on page 1 is 30 average
20:14:14 <Jolteon> I'm looking to run a server thats 'never-ending' (that is, never-ending within the servers capability, as we all know, OpenTTD is CPU intensive with many vehicles) is there anything I can do to prevent people getting rich, then spamming the landscape into the sea, or some crpa?
20:14:20 * SmatZ like that linear approximation
20:15:04 <Rubidium> on the last page the blue line is number of downloads, red is MBs of download and yellow is the 30 average of downloads
20:15:26 <Rubidium> Jolteon: all autoclean settings at 1?
20:15:34 <Rubidium> enable breakdowns and disasters
20:17:31 <Terkhen> use a grf to make landscaping really expensive
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20:20:56 <Jolteon> Would it be possible to make a GRF that doesn't affect terraforming price, unless you're making it meet the sea (or at exactly <sea level here>) then the price is so high it's impossible to ever buy it.
20:21:07 <Jolteon> (Or just produce a custom error message saying it's forbidden, that'd be cool)
20:24:32 <Terkhen> you could raise the "clear water" cost a lot (I think the BaseCosts newgrf can alter any cost by parameter)
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20:32:23 <frosch123> problem is that the clear water cost is also uses for building canals etc
20:32:36 <Jolteon> frosch123: Damn is it?
20:34:06 <frosch123> noone volunteered to redesign the cost for building canals, locks and aqueducts and clearing sea, river and canal from ground up :)
20:34:31 <Terkhen> hmm... sorry, didn't seem like that looking at the specs
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20:37:04 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o SmatZ
20:38:05 <frosch123> did that happen before today?
20:38:23 <SmatZ> he had suspicious nick :)
20:38:31 <SmatZ> and whois showed like 50 channels
20:41:54 * andythenorth crashed the game
20:43:32 <andythenorth> added a vehicle to a grf, then reloaded
20:43:40 <andythenorth> usually asserts in recent versions of ottd
20:43:48 <andythenorth> so not surprised
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20:59:02 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Error: float division
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21:02:38 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 0.207879576351
21:03:35 <DorpsGek> Pikka: Error: 'andythenorth' is not a defined function.
21:04:03 <andythenorth> funny idea of lol you have down there :P
21:06:42 * andythenorth watches some hovercraft go by
21:07:08 <__ln__> something in the photo looks like it had been enhanced using Adobe® Photoshop®
21:08:26 <__ln__> the lack of shadows probably
21:09:57 <__ln__> can one refit a hovercraft to carry eels?
21:10:31 <SmatZ> that's like having carrot-only ships :-/
21:10:40 <andythenorth> __ln__ one can if one writes a grf to provide eels
21:10:43 <andythenorth> do you have eels?
21:19:26 <Eoin> what release stage is FISH at andythenorth
21:21:08 <andythenorth> it's very playable
21:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause2> <Sacro> i^i is confusing <-- i^i = e^(-pi/2)
21:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause2> @calc exp(-pi/2)
21:22:12 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: 0.207879576351
21:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't see where the confusion would come from :p
21:24:37 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause2: it's imaginary confusion ;-)
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21:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> we calculated that value in 10th grade
21:33:24 <Mazur> I calculated that once in school.
21:33:55 <Mazur> Basically a geometric job.
21:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's easier once you know the exponential representation of i :p
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21:43:03 <Rhamphoryncus> huh, sometimes qalculate is weird.
21:43:05 <Rhamphoryncus> i⋅⋅i = e⋅⋅(−pi/2) = (i^i) = (e^((−pi) ∕ 2))
21:43:10 <Rhamphoryncus> = (i^i ⋅ e^(π ∕ 2) − 1) ∕ e^(π ∕ 2) = 0
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