IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-16
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00:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i also have installers for 0.4.0 and 0.4.0.1
00:01:36 <OwenS> If I fish around I can probably find 0.3.5 bnaries...
00:01:44 <planetmaker> I recently found a 0.4.x on an old hard disc of mine...
00:01:57 <OwenS> planetmaker, yeah, but is that from #ottdc's oldskool game? :p
00:02:08 <planetmaker> no, not at all :-)
00:02:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and a "ttdpt20r1W.zip"
00:02:21 <planetmaker> those are on new hard discs ;-)
00:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause> this is my generic "installers from the last 10 years" collection directory
00:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately i can't find out anymore from when these files are, as they are all marked "26.06.2006"
00:04:07 <planetmaker> cp -p should be default ;-)
00:04:15 <Eddi|zuHause> which is a few days after my switch to linux
00:04:54 <OwenS> Hmm.. I think my switch date was ~august 2005
00:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> interestingly, many files in there are newer than that :p
00:09:02 <amalloy1> it's pretty easy to make cp -p the default, though, on a given system
00:10:12 <Cadde> So basically, a lot of people here are running *nix
00:10:27 <amalloy1> well, you're playing a game which is an open-source project. surprise! :)
00:10:40 <Cadde> I wish i could too but there are too many things i still use for winblows
00:10:43 <amalloy1> i'm actually running windows, though. but i have cygwin installed
00:10:55 <amalloy1> good enough to get me most of what i want but still do windows gaming
00:12:09 <Cadde> If eve online would go back to supporting linux i would be close to the tipping point. I would probably run linux as my primary and winblows as my secondary.
00:12:46 * OwenS is actually running Solaris. But i'm odd
00:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> please... who in this channel is _not_ odd?
00:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that is a lie :p
00:37:04 <__ln__> although... only odd people use irc.
00:38:58 <__ln__> Rubidium: By the way, why did you not speak up when Bjarni was granted access to svn? Why did you not object to it?
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00:41:07 <Yexo> __ln__: a guess from me: bjarni had already svn access before Rubidium joined
00:41:33 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Commit by bjarni :: r114 trunk/svnup.sh (2004-08-22 19:40:50 UTC)
00:41:34 <DorpsGek> Yexo: updated svnup.sh to display merged files (blathijs)
00:42:15 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Commit by rubidium :: r4788 /trunk (15 files in 2 dirs) (2006-05-09 08:17:33 UTC)
00:42:16 <DorpsGek> Yexo: - Codechange: RAILTYPE_{NORMAL,ELECTRIC,...} and RAIL_TYPE_{NORMAL,SIGNAL,...} have nearly the same name, rename RAIL_TYPE_* to RAIL_TILE_* of extra clarity
00:42:23 <Yexo> first commits from both I could find
00:44:27 <__ln__> Fine, although the log is incomplete due to the svn crash.
00:45:11 <Yexo> yes, but if Rubidium would have had access to the old svn then I'd expect him to commit something in the first 4787 revisions of the new svn
00:45:56 <Yexo> the log is not randomly incomplete, the first 925 (or 975?) commits are missing
00:47:53 <__ln__> Rubidium: Alternatively, why did you not demand Bjarni's svn access to be revoked immediately even after you found out Bjarni is planting unpleasant "surprises" into the code?
00:48:51 <ccfreak2k> Oh, we're at 1.0 apparently.
00:50:51 <OwenS> __ln__, unpleasent surprises?
00:51:19 <amalloy1> does cargodist apply to non-passenger cargo? eg "some of this coal wants to go to power station A, some of it to power station B"?
00:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: Rubidium "inherited" Bjarni
00:51:57 <amalloy1> neat. should make for an interesting change of approach
00:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and by the time Rubidium got control, it likely was too late anyway
00:52:21 <OwenS> __ln__, what I'm wondering is, what you mean by this
00:52:39 <Yexo> OwenS: it's all in the irc logs from today
00:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: if my memory does not betray me, basically Rubidium is in charge since Darkvater left
00:53:06 <ccfreak2k> I'd like to know what's going on too.
00:53:22 <__ln__> OwenS: and i was referring to: 12:34 <@Rubidium> Darkvater: yeah, sadly enough we find surprises from Bjarni every few weeks :(
00:53:47 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: and by that time, Bjarni was already starting to go inactive
00:55:53 * OwenS is still curious w.r.t an example of such surprises
00:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> [Donnerstag, 15. April 2010] [11:44:48] <Rubidium> Darkvater: yeah, such gems as CVE-2009-4007
01:01:01 <Eddi|zuHause> you might not remember the maintenance pain that autoreplace was before frosch's rewrite
01:09:15 <OwenS> If his SVN access has been revoked... would it not also make sense to remove him from the developers group on the forum?
01:09:56 <Yexo> 1. I'm not sure his svn access has ever been revoked
01:10:03 <amalloy1> so...i have a general idea of how to build junctions, though not very efficient ones yet. but it seems like overkill to build a huge junction for every station i want trains to stop at, esp if trains have to be able to either turn around or go straight. is there a more lightweight way of doing this?
01:10:30 <Yexo> 2. he can't harm the code via the forum
01:10:45 <__ln__> OwenS: AFAIK his access has not been revoked.
01:10:53 <OwenS> Yexo, true, but its somewhat misrepresentation of his ongoing status
01:11:01 <PeterT> Has his modifications to OpenTTD really been that bad?
01:11:27 <Yexo> OwenS: true, but the same holds for more people
01:12:19 <Yexo> amalloy1: build a small junction (don't care about crossing tracks) and only improve it (and in the process likely enlarging it) if it's needed?
01:12:31 <OwenS> Yexo, I suppose its just that most projects I'm used to disable repository access for inactive devs for security reasons
01:13:12 <amalloy1> yexo: ah, good point. i'd been imagining that i needed to build perfectly the first time, but of course i don't
01:13:36 <amalloy1> cadde: yes, they are roro stations, but that doesn't avoid the use of bridges or crossovers in order to get trains to turn around after they go through
01:13:39 <Yexo> OwenS: and when is someone inactive exactly? when he hasn't commited for half a year? one year? two years?
01:14:04 <Yexo> amalloy1: personally I find upgrading live junctions one of the most fun parts of building
01:14:19 <OwenS> Yexo, the general policy I've seen seems to be 3 to 6 months. As said, its just disabled rather than revoked
01:14:22 <Cadde> amalloy1: If you'd like to you could host an online game and i can hop in a look at your designs and show you some.
01:14:56 <Yexo> OwenS: would you consider Belugas inactive? his last commit was 14 january 2010
01:15:00 <Cadde> And as yexo said, there is nothing more entertaining than upgrading live heavy traffic junctions
01:15:24 <OwenS> Yexo, more "no commits and missing from IRC" for 3 to 6 months
01:15:40 <Yexo> 7 weeks is not even 2 months
01:16:34 <OwenS> I would say this, however, is a somewhat unusual case?
01:16:49 <Yexo> more old devs have shown up on irc lately
01:17:12 <Yexo> darkvater was here today for example (although i don't think he still has svn access)
01:17:27 <amalloy1> thanks cadde, but i think there will be nat/firewall issues with me hosting and don't want to try and work them out
01:17:49 <Belugas> OwenS, your definition of inactivity is shocking me
01:17:50 <Cadde> If your FW is the only issue
01:18:34 <OwenS> Belugas, it would depend upon the project. But more than one project has found one day security exploits inserted into its code by the compromised account of an inactive developer
01:18:43 <amalloy1> it's the only issue i'm aware of; i've managed to join an online game or two. i might have some conflicting newgrfs, though? i don't know how to tell that
01:19:14 <Cadde> Well, i am more concerned over what build you have. openttd 1.0 ?
01:19:28 <Yexo> to host a game you need to open some ports in your router, to join a game you don't need to do that
01:19:30 <amalloy1> yeah, i think so. let me relaunch without cargodist
01:19:36 <OwenS> (And I know a few years back Debian were in the situation where a compromised developer's account caused bogus packages to be uploaded to their security repo)
01:21:02 <amalloy1> okay, added you as a server; it says you're offline
01:21:08 <amalloy1> do you want one of my savegames, or start from scratch?
01:21:27 <Belugas> OwenS, these are bad people.
01:21:59 <Belugas> i doubt OpenTTD has ever counted thesesorts of jerks
01:22:12 <Belugas> well... there ws one once...
01:22:14 <OwenS> Belugas, maybe not. But they exist
01:22:23 <amalloy1> or, indeed, most of those newgrfs
01:22:23 <Cadde> Oh sorry, meant to start without grf
01:22:42 <Belugas> but hewanted toremove his stuff, only. no bad stuff other wise...
01:24:41 <PeterT> Good night Belugas, Yexo, and OwenS
01:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: btw, did you think about the time based signalling? i think it's a really useful addition to progsigs
01:25:52 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause, time based? (OK, I can stay awake a few more minutes :P)
01:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: i'm sure i mentoned that before, something like "stay red for X ticks and allow green for Y ticks"... or something date based
01:27:35 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause, main thing is that then I need to add time-based callbacks, which have caveats (Changing to a different signal type while one still exists would have to be handled carefully, for example)
01:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: a) line priorities, b) keeping open windows for mixed fast/slow train lines, c) load balancing
01:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: things like the openttdcoop "tight packer" can be done with time based signalling
01:29:55 <OwenS> Line priorities: You can implement #ottdc style priorities without the signal track with progsigs
01:30:02 <OwenS> (Though its cumbersome)
01:30:15 <OwenS> Load balancing... I have a cunning plan </blackadder>
01:30:24 <OwenS> keeping open windows: Hmm?
01:30:56 <OwenS> I'm not quite following though ;-)
01:31:01 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: prevent slow freight trains from entering the main line when a fast passenger train is scheduled
01:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> without having to add a timetable for every freight train
01:31:16 <OwenS> Aah, thats an interesting one
01:31:35 <OwenS> I have never touched the timetable interface except in logic constructions ;-)
01:32:31 <OwenS> Major things are that, firstly, programming the conditions could be as complex as the existing interface (-> complex to implement), and time based callback issues
01:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> example: assume i have a mainline consisting out of 4 evenly spaced signal blocks [long]. and it takes a freight train 10 days to pass one signal block, and a passenger train is scheduled every 40 days. then i want to put a freight train in the first 10 day window, a freight train in the second 10 day window, keep the third 10 day window free, and start the passenger in the fourth 10 day window
01:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so i set the freight train signal to "green for 20 days, red for 20 days", and the passenger train signal to "red for 30 days, green for 10 days"
01:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and need a way to synchonize them
01:39:25 <OwenS> I suppose I could add an "<in the first 30 out of 40 days>" condition, and then make it so that the current position through a "phase" is the day count since the epoch modulo 40
01:44:33 <OwenS> Anyway, I bid you all goodnight
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02:10:22 <Cadde> Eddi|zuHause: With progsigs i solve that by making a signal detect when a train is waiting for a train in front of it. Any train that is forcing a train behind it to wait is going to the slow lane. However, i haven't tested this with a situation where there is a complete lockup on the line. In that case every train would take the slow lane.
02:10:51 <Cadde> That is why i have suggested to Owen that we get more details about the train that has passed a progsig.
02:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not possible
02:11:17 <Cadde> Or a signal set as the monitor.
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02:15:46 <Eddi|zuHause> a signal cannot have a reference to a train
02:16:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there can even be two trains on the signal at the same time
02:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> or more, if you have newgrfs
02:16:29 <Cadde> Well, "Can't"... Isn't that a matter of changing code.
02:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's more than just code
02:16:59 <Cadde> And i am talking about the last train to go past that signal. (Or possibly have a number of variables as a stack)
02:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's also software design, algorithm complexity and memory usage
02:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you add that, people will also want information about the train that is waiting at the signal, and that is even mroe impossible
02:18:13 <Cadde> Well, each train has an ID right? I am not talking about passing the entire structure. I am talking about passing the ID so the progsig can query this information on demand.
02:19:13 <Cadde> So that is, once a train pass a progsig or a combo exit (set in the progsig) it will store the id and then there is a condition that can take trainID.maxspeed or likewise.
02:19:36 <Cadde> However, i am not even remotely aware of how ottd works.
02:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but that means you need to store two train ids (2x16 bit) in the map array, even for non-progsig-signals
02:20:22 <Cadde> I am just trying to remain positive as i would love to have this functionality. And if i need it badly enough i might learn everything i need to learn to make it happen.
02:21:09 <Cadde> To me, impossible is nothing. It's just a matter of how much work it takes to make it happen whether it's worth the trouble.
02:22:10 <Cadde> And i am looking at this from my experience with Wiremod. In there you can program virtual CPU's and share data with anything placed in the game.
02:22:41 <Cadde> There is even Wire super mario bros... So i just like to think that nothing is impossible.
02:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but they don't have a 100MB game state
02:23:37 <Cadde> No, they have unlimited space (to the point where Source crashes)
02:23:55 <Cadde> Well, not in the memory leak sense though
02:24:25 <Cadde> More in the, your computer is about to explode but we prefer if the game crashes :D
02:29:06 <chaos95> I think what Eddi means is, the state in those games most likely takes up significantly less memory than in openttd
02:29:44 <Cadde> chaos95: You might be right, i thought of it the wrong way.
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05:00:42 <Cadde> I need to see changes made since revision 19599
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06:21:16 <Rubidium> zodttd: so now you blame me for going to bed at a reasonable time for my timezone because I have to be at school early?
06:24:10 <Forked> I blame you for the volcano activity on iceland
06:24:16 <zodttd> Rubidium: I'm not blaming you for anything. Though I would like your support, I expressed I would have to explain why such a popular application dissapeared from App Store. Apple pulled it shortly after you stopped speaking as I said they would. When I contacted Apple, they said both parties must come to the conclusion to bring back the app.
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06:36:50 <Ammler> zodttd: I don't know, if anyone already told you, but please do completely clone openttd trunk and keep the history, so it is easier for everyone to see the changes, all commits without (svn...) for example.
06:37:20 <zodttd> Ammler: I am working off the release build within git.
06:37:49 <zodttd> Err rephrase. I am working in git, using the release of 1.0.0 which I was told is not in your git.
06:37:57 <Rubidium> Ammler: git doesn't support the way we release, so there's no 1.0.0 in our git repository
06:41:04 <Rubidium> the 1.0 branch without 1.0.0
06:41:46 <Ammler> yeah, but the only missing part is the release changeset itself, so this should still be easiest?
06:42:49 <Ammler> well, and a parallel branch with trunk of course :-)
06:46:13 <peter1138> git supports branches and tags, but it probably wouldn't work from svn-git
06:47:16 <dihedral> is TrueBrain around?
06:48:41 <Rubidium> zodttd: I will email Apple as soon as I am confident you have resolved all violations
06:49:09 <zodttd> Rubidium: How can I make sure you're confident / how do I prove so?
06:50:17 <Rubidium> show me that the binary package and source repository doesn't miss anything that would violate, i.e. let me download and review the updated binary package and source repository
06:50:31 <zodttd> As far as I'm aware, your requests are to add the license.txt & readme.txt in filesystem alongside the binary, and do the same with OpenSFX and OpenGFX. Then make sure they're in the splash as well.
06:51:01 <dihedral> and the file he was missing required to compile it
06:51:13 <zodttd> The way I was told to go about OpenGFX and OpenSFX was to include them in their tar forms.
06:51:43 <zodttd> I included literally the entire project. It requires XCode to compile.
06:51:47 <dihedral> i do not know which one, i only remember Rubidium was missing a file
06:51:49 <Ammler> or in subdirs without removing parts...
06:52:31 <zodttd> You can literally download XCode from Apple for free, run the xcodeproject and click Build & Go.
06:53:17 <Ammler> all base sets zips are distributed with subdirs, so you could also just use those.
07:00:16 <Rubidium> zodttd: at least src/network/core/config.h is missing from the repository, but to test what more is missing simply clone the git repository and test that
07:01:56 <zodttd> Checking where it is located. I know the project I have is complete unless git failed to upload it
07:03:28 <zodttd> Ah! The gitignore file blocked it
07:06:24 <zodttd> Making a final compile and updating the sources. Will have a new IPA in a few minutes
07:06:30 <Rubidium> http://rbijker.net/openttd/ipad.diff <- that's roughly the diff I get after removing the projects/openttd directory with sdl/freetype/png/xcode stuff and ignoring the files you moved around and ignoring the deleted makefiles
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07:08:45 <Rubidium> and it shows that network/core/config.h has been removed
07:08:52 <zodttd> Rubidium: Doing a push to the repo with the .gitignore cleaned up so it includes Makefiles and network/config.h
07:09:36 <zodttd> That was due to one of your previous .gitignore's making it's way into the project. Fun times with hidden files.
07:10:04 <chaos95> git doesn't support the way you release?
07:10:08 <zodttd> metwork/core/config.h and rev.cpp are up now
07:10:16 <Rubidium> I'm fairly certain that didn't ignore network/core/config.h
07:11:29 <zodttd> Might want to look into that :)
07:15:20 <zodttd> Nearly ready for an IPA
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07:22:05 * Rubidium will be gone for a while now
07:23:55 <zodttd> Ok Rubidium. I will email you links to the IPA and the update source code. Let me know when you'll be back
07:26:29 <Rubidium> depends somewhat on how long the meeting takes; sometimes it's like 15 minutes, sometimes it's some hours
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07:28:58 <amalloy> where can i find a list of what changes cargodist makes? i've noticed very different behavior for station ratings, and i'd like to find out where it's documented
07:29:53 <planetmaker> amalloy: get a source checkout of cargodist and compare to the openttd version it is based upon
07:30:08 <planetmaker> and good morning folks
07:31:12 <amalloy> well, while that would certainly work eventually, it seems a bit overkill. it's really not documented anywhere?
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07:47:10 <Ammler> amalloy: I assume you know the wiki page, else you wouldn't ask here ;-)
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08:07:21 <zodttd> Rubidium: I sent you an email to rubidium@openttd.org with links to the new IPA and a link to the repo which has been updated. I also included a changelog for you.
08:11:59 <Ammler> if you would make your development public, others could help you to improve without the need to bother Rubi, tt-forums is a good start there :-)
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08:13:22 <Ammler> why you need to send a email to rubi?
08:14:34 <zodttd> Ammler: No worries. Just needed to resolve some issues with a port and licensing.
08:15:24 <zodttd> That just controls the splash screen
08:15:35 <zodttd> I can screenshot for you
08:15:57 <planetmaker> you're doing it wrong, Rubidium ! ;-)
08:16:02 <zodttd> It's three license files in scroll boxes labeled for each product, then a play on button.
08:16:35 <Rubidium> planetmaker: tell me how to do it right, i.e. tell me how to install Mac OS X in VirtualBox
08:17:23 <planetmaker> I know that you tried
08:17:33 <planetmaker> (or I think that I know. whatever)
08:18:11 <Rubidium> zodttd: vmware has always been a hell for me to get properly installed; virtualbox is just dead easy
08:18:42 <zodttd> True. I just know Mac OS X can run in VMWare some how some way. Not sure about VirtualBox. :/
08:19:04 <Rubidium> new kernel: virtualbox says okay, lets compile a new module. vmware says: huh, hell no, I don't know that kernel... you first need to google for some third party patch to make my code compile with that kernel
08:19:04 <peter1138> Ammler, wow, i agree with you for once :p
08:19:36 <Ammler> for once, I didn't make a request :-P
08:19:48 <Rubidium> ah, good... no zlib 1.2.4 in the ipa
08:20:11 <zodttd> zlib is a part of the iPhone OS and is dynamically linked
08:20:37 <peter1138> (i doubt it, but you never know)
08:20:46 <zodttd> Oh, I will check in a bit if needed
08:21:24 <Rubidium> libpng is kinda old, but who am I to complain about that
08:21:43 <peter1138> zodttd, just there's a bug in 1.2.4 that breaks content download
08:21:58 <zodttd> Eww, well content download works. So probably not 1.2.4 :D
08:22:29 <Rubidium> does the downloaded content work, that's the real question :)
08:22:56 <zodttd> I will recheck, but it should
08:23:05 <chaos95> there's a bug in openttd that breaks content downloading for me, it's called BaNaNaS
08:23:35 <planetmaker> you're not helpful, chaos95
08:24:27 <chaos95> planetmaker: well the only way that it can be fixed is if BaNaNaS is essentially totally reimplemented to work via http :P
08:24:48 <planetmaker> that was more helpful ;-)
08:25:03 <chaos95> until then I'll have to deal with not being able to download content in-game on my lunch breaks
08:25:12 <peter1138> cos my content mirror is http...
08:25:20 <planetmaker> or you could add an exception to your firewall :-P
08:26:40 <chaos95> planetmaker: I'll call IT and tell them to do that :P
08:27:01 <peter1138> gb.binaries.openttd.org - [16/Apr/2010:09:25:14 +0100] "GET /binaries/bananas/newgrf/Japanese_Buildings-2.0.tar.gz HTTP/1.0" 200 739362 "-" "OpenTTD/1.0.0"
08:27:07 <peter1138> yup, looks like http to me
08:27:27 <chaos95> peter1138: but getting the actual content list isn't
08:28:16 <Rubidium> isn't there some socks-over-http proxy stuff?
08:28:29 <Rubidium> I know there is a socks-over-dns thing
08:29:05 <chaos95> Rubidium: there are ways around it; I have an ssh tunnel out to a shell, which I can piggyback other tunnels onto
08:29:40 <chaos95> but I just haven't got around to doing all the necessary tweaks to /etc/hosts and my ssh config
08:30:24 <chaos95> not to mention I'm not sure that bananas will use an http proxy when attempting to download from content mirrors
08:30:45 <Rubidium> I'm quite sure it won't
08:31:26 <Noldo> http-proxys are so 1995
08:31:36 <chaos95> so yeah that makes it tricky.. I can possibly try something with iptables
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08:32:01 <Rubidium> zodttd: that ipa will still be advertised as version 1.0.0, right?
08:32:17 <chaos95> after which I'll write a paper on per-application transparent http proxy configuration
08:33:20 <chaos95> but yeah, if bananas were able to grab the http_proxy environment variable and use said proxy when performing http stuff it would be awesome.
08:34:02 <Rubidium> chaos95: squid + transparent proxying works fine
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08:40:21 <peter1138> is that environment variable available on all OSes?
08:43:56 <chaos95> peter1138: nah it's not, that's the problem
08:44:08 <chaos95> although I'd be happy with a setting within the application
08:44:21 <chaos95> Noldo: I may just do that
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09:05:32 <Rubidium> zodttd: the copyright stuff is something that isn't encoded in the ipa, right?
09:15:06 <Rubidium> should I rephrase or are you rephrasing your answer?
09:15:22 <zodttd> Please rephrase for me. Didn't understand completely.
09:16:19 <Rubidium> the "2005-2010 (c) OpenTTD Team" I saw in the snapshot/screenshot of the itunes page, is that coming from the .ipa or from somewhere else (e.g. some edit box on their submission website)?
09:16:42 <zodttd> Somewhere else (iTunesConnect backend)
09:23:30 <peter1138> OpenTTD © 2002-2010 The OpenTTD team
09:23:49 <peter1138> That's what OpenTTD says, anyway
09:23:52 <zodttd> I got it from your website
09:24:08 <peter1138> that's the copyright for the website :p
09:24:21 <zodttd> Oh my! I will change accordingly
09:25:07 <zodttd> Assuming I can do so via the update function.
09:25:40 <peter1138> double check with Rubidium, he's more thorough than me
09:28:24 <Rubidium> peter1138: apparantly ludde started in 2002
09:29:02 <Rubidium> "fun" thing is that even if it's not correct, we're bound by the license to keep the copyright notice intact
09:46:23 <zodttd> Thank you Rubidium. I truly appreciate it.
09:47:15 <zodttd> Thanks to the rest of the OpenTTD Team as well. I will be sticking around here. If you have any requests, concerns, or just anything to talk about, feel free to contact me anytime.
09:51:26 <dihedral> zottd.... fix some os x bugs :-D
09:51:35 <dihedral> and submit the patches :-P
09:52:04 <dihedral> i bet pm, yexo, or me are happy to skim over them for coding style - as good as we can of course :-P
09:52:14 <dihedral> or a bunch of others ^^
09:52:28 <zodttd> Heh. Cool. I will look into them. I have to see how the Mac version was built in terms of libraries/frameworks used.
09:52:50 <zodttd> Cool. I don't mind code being refactored at all. :D
09:52:52 <planetmaker> you'll need cocoa framework. and zlib
09:52:58 <dihedral> well... it would be awesome if it used plain cocoa instead of quarz
09:53:12 <planetmaker> other than that it's not being built using xcode, rather the linux way
09:53:18 <planetmaker> using configure && make
09:53:28 <dihedral> ./confire may i please? ;-P
09:53:38 <dihedral> typo just in the wrong moment
09:53:41 <planetmaker> not now, thanks ;-)
09:55:37 <dihedral> grrr - dns update is taking to damn long!
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10:18:28 <mikk36|work> how do i get a blank working openttd.cfg without graphical user interface?
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10:21:00 <planetmaker> delete it and start openttd
10:21:13 <planetmaker> it will be written automatically upon exiting openttd
10:21:25 <planetmaker> openttd -D will start openttd in dedicated mode as server
10:21:53 <mikk36|work> hm, is it located somewhere else than its own folder?
10:23:14 <dihedral> *cough* readme *cough*
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10:42:19 <Cadde> NoobCp: Not big enough, needs more tiles :D
10:43:24 <Cadde> One of these days we are going to see maps that takes a week to scroll across :D
10:48:07 <Cadde> After an hour of scrolling you leave the planet :D
10:48:47 <NoobCp> There wouldn't be a whole lot of bulk goods leaving the planet tho
10:48:50 <Cadde> And we have a new breed of transportation ofc, intergalactic space ships. That hauls space cows
10:49:01 <Forked> 10k players on a single map
10:49:05 <Forked> oh happy cloud computing
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12:34:17 <NoobCp> For some reason I'm seeing a passengers accepted line on a coal mine tile...
12:35:44 <Rubidium> yeah, they would like some workers
12:35:53 <Rubidium> but not enough for there to be a demand for a station
12:36:12 <SpComb> ship ALL you passengers from the whole map there!
12:36:31 <Rubidium> if there is enough demand in the area (another coal mine and steel mill or so) the station will start accepting passengers
12:36:48 <NoobCp> I've been wondering if oil rigs or factories could be used for that actually, passenger sinks
12:38:11 <NoobCp> Two way transport (freeder shipline) complicates things with the oil rig a tiny bit tho
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12:51:22 <mikk36|work> could someone explain me the meaning of reserve_path ?
12:53:45 <mikk36|work> oh, it makes every signal type act as a pbs signal?
12:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> more like it shows the path reservations
12:57:21 <Rubidium> isn't that "show_track_reservation"?
12:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... then i don't know
12:58:12 <Rubidium> why do you think I left it to michi_cc :)
12:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> src/train_cmd.cpp: seg_state = _settings_game.pf.reserve_paths ? SIGSEG_PBS : UpdateSignalsOnSegment(v->tile, INVALID_DIAGDIR, v->owner);
12:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like "reserve paths even though no PBS signal is nearby"
12:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't change the meaning of the signal
13:29:12 <ccfreak2k> The web site asked me what I was doing six years ago.
13:29:20 <ccfreak2k> I don't think it's any of its business!
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14:18:39 <Pikka> looks like presignals to me
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14:19:26 <Pikka> you don't need those big long crossovers if you're using PBS, just have an X between two parallel lines
14:19:41 <NoobCp> Oh yeah, I forgot about PBS
14:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks very useless indeed...
14:22:12 <Ammler> pbs "overtaking" lines does make sense for >2 lines
14:22:30 <Ammler> else you would need to make the lines bidirectional
14:25:41 <NoobCp> Thanks for the idea Pikka
14:26:18 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png <- a triple track line with bidirectional overtaking in the middle
14:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the trick is, the signal distance must be long enough for overtaking to actually succeed
14:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise trains might get blocked by a train coming from the other side
14:29:47 <NoobCp> I think I'll use a four track line instead, don't feel like experimenting with that yet
14:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i rarely have use for 4 track lines, and if so, they are separated freight/passenger lines and thus LRLR
14:35:00 <NoobCp> I'm concerned about poor acceleration with 12 tile trains
14:35:19 <nighthawk_c_m> Use 3 engines ^
14:35:35 <nighthawk_c_m> then the acceleration won't get worse then with one,
14:36:07 <NoobCp> And not 4 or 5 engines?
14:40:14 <nighthawk_c_m> well - experiment
14:40:55 <nighthawk_c_m> there is a calculation somwhere, but I dunno where actually
14:41:23 <nighthawk_c_m> But with 12 Tile trains always remember to make the curves at least 12 tiles long too - otherwise you have slowdowns there
14:42:09 <NoobCp> Perhaps not in 1950 but yeah, don't think the scenario I made has enough space for that
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14:49:25 <NoobCp> That article shouldn't link to openttdcoop wiki tho, there's no equivalent load balancer shown
14:51:44 <nighthawk_c_m> well, many junwhich one do you mean?
14:51:55 <NoobCp> the station example in the bottom
14:52:29 <NoobCp> Perhaps I misanderstand the intention of the reference
14:53:10 <nighthawk_c_m> You mean the high capacity railway station?
14:53:54 <nighthawk_c_m> It should work fine, two incoming tracks that can access every station track - the PBS reserving the track onto a plattform
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14:54:27 <NoobCp> I'm thinking if the station is flowing near capacity both exits will be about equally filled anyway
14:55:24 <nighthawk_c_m> well, you don't need pbs at the end/exit, whoever developed that uses PBS way too much, regular signals do just fine there, and die to train length I think it should run pretty smooth
14:56:32 <nighthawk_c_m> And regularly I plan 6 - 8 Plattforms for a high capacity line - liek a main Station that recieves a lot of goods or so
14:56:43 <NoobCp> Wasn't thinking of using that example tho
14:59:30 <nighthawk_c_m> Stations is a thing of taste + situation + landscape
15:00:08 <nighthawk_c_m> often I find that I have a very good design at hand but can't use it due to landscape limitations, I use nearly no terraforming so ...
15:02:57 <Eddi|zuHause> <Pikka> UUDD UDUD? :P <-- "up" and "down" don't make any sense in a decentralised network :p
15:03:13 <NoobCp> I'm strange, to get myself into the game I'm trying to play on flat land
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16:50:13 <nighthawk_c_m> can someone explainme how to change a newgrf parameter ?
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16:59:50 <Pikka> whoever created those images has good taste in grfs :P
17:06:11 <nighthawk_c_m> what do you mean oikka?
17:06:18 <nighthawk_c_m> Pikka .. damn typo
17:11:03 <Eddi|zuHause> nighthawk_c_m: most of these grfs are made by him :p
17:11:42 <nighthawk_c_m> I am trying to figure out how to set ecs up so mines don't run dry and so on
17:11:52 <nighthawk_c_m> but I am unsure if I do the parameter thing correctly
17:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to set the "general behaviour" parameter for each grf
17:12:31 <nighthawk_c_m> oh, for each grf I understood it was only to be set for the basics grf
17:12:35 <planetmaker> hm, one can read parameters of other grfs, right? I wonder why george doesn't use that...
17:13:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if you can do that
17:13:24 <nighthawk_c_m> well the wikki described it somewhat like that - but maybe I am missunderstanding something here
17:13:30 <planetmaker> I think FIRS does something like that in order to check for compatibility
17:13:56 <planetmaker> being incompatible with some newgrfs only if they set (or don't set) certain parameters
17:14:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know that ECS parameters are a huge mess, because "general behaviour" isn't always the first parameter
17:14:34 <planetmaker> sounds like IDs need a change and a re-work of that part
17:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> george said he might change that when he changes the GRF-ID...
17:15:51 <planetmaker> yeah, that's what will be required.
17:16:22 <planetmaker> I think it might really make sense to just set parameters to the base grf.
17:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but just changing the parameters is not enough to warrant such a change
17:16:47 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: then teach him how to do that ;)
17:17:13 <nighthawk_c_m> but now comes the prize question - how do I know if I set the parameters right?
17:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i set them to 12 usually
17:17:51 <Yexo> <nighthawk_c_m> but now comes the prize question - how do I know if I set the parameters right? <- you play the game and see if it behaves as you expect
17:18:00 <Yexo> if it doesn't you post in the ecs topic so george can look at it
17:18:22 <nighthawk_c_m> Yeah, well, wasting time is not really what I am looking for ...
17:19:10 <planetmaker> nighthawk_c_m: then I propose you pickup work instead of playing and chatting :-P
17:21:30 <nighthawk_c_m> I am more or less eeking someone who knows how to set up the ecs parameters - trial and error can take forever depending on how abindant the resources under a coal mine are
17:29:42 <planetmaker> nighthawk_c_m: the readme for the ecs vectors will tell you
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17:45:16 <nighthawk_c_m> think i got it now
17:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19640 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt portuguese.txt):
17:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by Yexo
17:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: portuguese - 12 changes by JayCity
17:52:39 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 20 hours, 54 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <frosch123> though i have none of them in my world file. no idea what actually pulls them in :p
17:53:01 <andythenorth> I am drowning in "FIRS" bug reports for broken industry placement :|
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17:55:33 <andythenorth> ^ he must have sensed that :)
17:56:00 <andythenorth> frosch123: hi hi
17:58:15 * frosch123 assumed this is not the right place to mention that he touched an ipad today
17:58:38 <frosch123> though i was not allowed to burn it :(
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18:01:49 <Rubidium> pad smoke, don't breath this :)
18:02:04 <Rubidium> yeah, planetmaker like that :)
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18:02:16 <Rubidium> ofcourse why use youtube when you can use the real site
18:02:35 <planetmaker> first link on google search :-P
18:02:55 <planetmaker> but it's what I remembered
18:03:26 <planetmaker> he, is the ipad version actually already appropriately modified?
18:03:57 <oal> Is the downlaod server down?
18:04:04 <Belugas> how was the experience, frosch123?
18:04:13 <planetmaker> doesn't look like
18:04:38 <oal> A friend of mine is not able to download openttd
18:04:40 <TrueBrain> one of our mirrors is currently down
18:04:45 <TrueBrain> let me put it offline ...
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18:04:54 <oal> TrueBrain: Can you change mirrors?
18:08:29 <frosch123> Belugas: well, i even hardly use cell phones, so such stuff hardly exaits me. i could watch a slide presentation for the coming industry fair on it, and when i noticed the gravity sensor rotating the screen i could only think about all those misgenerated pdf and ps (from scanners etc) which come in wrong orientation :p
18:08:35 <TrueBrain> (and then to imagine I never read this channel in general without highlight! I am all proud I catched this :p)
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18:10:17 <TrueBrain> that sounds like an amazing idea to do tonight
18:12:58 <Pyr0> I came here just to thank everyone involved in openttd dev for such a great game
18:16:28 <Rubidium> frosch123: sounds like my cellphone usage... as long as it can make a phone call without too much hassle it's fine with me
18:16:50 <Rubidium> don't need 8G or whatever is greatest and bestest right now
18:16:53 <__ln__> Pyr0: remember to thank Chris Sawyer for TTD too.
18:17:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19641 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/irish.txt: -Add: stub for an Irish translation
18:17:30 <Pyr0> I had always thanked him :)
18:18:01 <Terkhen> I tend to drop my cellphone a lot, I always pick the most sturdy looking from the cheap ones
18:18:10 <Terkhen> besides that... I don't care :P
18:18:34 <TrueBrain> Pyr0: how kind of you :)
18:19:53 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: FYI, master is now IPv6 mirror, nl is out of rotation. Please remind me to reset it when it is up again :p
18:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> irish is a language?
18:21:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought they speak english there
18:21:22 <TrueBrain> it is if we say so, not?
18:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> or is that some gaelic thing like welsh?
18:21:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: apparantly it is an official language in the EU
18:22:19 <Noldo> what isn't official language in EU
18:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: luxembourgish
18:22:36 <TrueBrain> he shoot and he SCORES!!!!
18:23:11 <Rubidium> Noldo: Luxembourgish, Turkish, Romani, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Austrian German, Flemish, Belgian French, Frisian, Saami, Serbo-Croatian
18:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, they consider it "just" a dialect of german :p
18:23:25 <Rubidium> Noldo: semi-official are Catalan, Galician and Basque.
18:23:30 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: irish gaelic
18:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: my teacher once flamed be because "scottish isn't a language"
18:24:27 <Sacro> the language is 'scots'
18:24:56 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not the answer she gave me...
18:31:03 <Eddi|zuHause> fucking youtube...
18:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> they screwed with direct downloading again. and they tell me to update flash player...
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18:38:01 <__ln__> Noldo: english only, it's 'sami'.
18:38:55 <__ln__> and what, there was a Mac version of the original Transport Tycoon?
18:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause> can't have been any success when they didn't even release world editor for it
18:48:47 <__ln__> Rubidium: The Oxford English Dictionary doesn't recognize that form.
18:49:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19642 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp:
18:49:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Add: Sort cargos alphabetically at the "Reffitable to" label in the
18:49:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: build vehicle window.
18:51:35 <Noldo> __ln__: so it's Oxford English only now?
18:52:25 <__ln__> Noldo: That's the way I would prefer, but the topic is a little vague.
18:55:11 *** peter1138 changes topic to "1.0.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | Full English Breakfast only"
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19:04:34 <Rubidium> then call them by their main term for general use by the Oxford dictionary: Lappi
19:07:47 * Ammler wonders, why it needs "English only" in the topic while __ln__ is in the channel...
19:10:47 <theholyduck> Rubidium, i'm fairly sure the lapp as the scandinavian term for them is a bit derogatory.
19:10:54 <theholyduck> i'm not sure if it transfers to english
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19:11:54 <Rubidium> theholyduck: oh yes, the dictionary says that they prefer Sami
19:12:12 <Rubidium> Ammler: because if it isn't there ln would be of no use in the channel
19:17:36 <oal> Is there a way to auto replace all very old vehicles?
19:18:11 <Rubidium> yup, just look it up on the wiki
19:18:17 <Rubidium> it's actually called autoreplace and autorenew
19:18:28 <Rubidium> it'll also tell what the difference between the two is
19:18:50 <Rubidium> there are some cases where autorenew and autoreplace don't work, but that's usually when the vehicle you want can't be bought anymore
19:19:16 <Rubidium> or you're using NewGRFs that disallow connecting certain vehicles after a certain time
19:21:02 <andythenorth> frosch123: map generator industry placement issues
19:21:41 <andythenorth> been reported multiple times. Also a different one about 64x64 maps
19:22:05 <andythenorth> if it's non-trivial I'll FS it tomorrow, my brain is fried today.
19:22:16 <andythenorth> I've seen the issue, but not sure exactly which nightly I was using
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19:52:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: it is intentional that the number of generated industries is not influences by the number of available industry types. so if a normal map contains 10 industrytypes with ten industries each, that makes 100 industries. if only one industrytype is available that will result in 100 industies of that type
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19:53:22 <andythenorth> so it's a feature not a bug? :P
19:53:56 <frosch123> it was changed just before 1.0. actually to some extent by your request :p
19:54:24 <frosch123> oh, and it also conforms to newgrf specs :)
19:55:13 <andythenorth> it's a bit weird that only 2048x2048 produces crazy results though
19:56:02 <andythenorth> I remember the changes -that's why I want the OTTD version numbers from the (multiple) forum posters who have reported this ;)
19:58:13 <frosch123> there was recently a fs task about hardly any industries being generated, but on asking for a demo savegame, the task author was not able to reproduce it
19:58:48 <frosch123> so, just ask them to post a savegame. a savegame tells everything about used version, used grf version, settings, and generation seed
19:59:35 <frosch123> that looks like a fault of your grf. did you zero the appearence property?
20:00:07 <andythenorth> nope, that would be *really* dumb :)
20:00:26 <frosch123> i.e. ottd first generates at least one industry per type (unless the special industry flag is set, which says to not do so), and then generated the rest according to the probability property.
20:00:39 <andythenorth> except when it doesn't :)
20:00:55 <frosch123> though it only controls the number of "tries to generate an industry". if the map is too hilly there will be less industries of big industries nevertheless
20:01:11 <andythenorth> as you said - a savegame would help :)
20:02:32 <TrueBrain> LOL! What happens if you connect 2 ports of your switch with one cable, and if that switch is VERY cheap?
20:02:42 <SpComb> TrueBrain: it fries and never works again
20:02:50 <TrueBrain> no, it is not that bad
20:02:57 <TrueBrain> a 'normal' switch would disable both ports btw
20:03:04 <TrueBrain> nope; endless packets
20:03:12 <SpComb> if your definition of 'normal' means a managed one...
20:03:14 <SpComb> TrueBrain: well, of course
20:03:15 <TrueBrain> so guess what happens then, when you put such switch in a big network of switches
20:03:23 <SpComb> the whole thing crashes
20:03:26 <andythenorth> frosch123: the second screenie is same everything except 1024x1024 instead of 2048x2048 (and different random seed I guess)
20:03:27 <SpComb> it happens all the time
20:03:30 <TrueBrain> SpComb: even non-managed ones detect that the ports are connected to eachother
20:03:41 <SpComb> never ran into one of those
20:03:45 <TrueBrain> well, nothing crashes .... it just floods the whole darn network with endless (in this case arp) packets
20:03:47 <SpComb> and you can still hook up two switches to eachother
20:04:13 <TrueBrain> in result ... our whole network was completely flooded, not allowing any normal packet to go through ... takes a while to isolate :p
20:04:16 <TrueBrain> stupid roommates :p
20:04:40 <TrueBrain> they are all on 100mbit switches
20:04:43 <TrueBrain> I have a 1gbit switch
20:04:46 <TrueBrain> but it even killed my switch
20:04:47 <frosch123> andythenorth: well, maybe i failed to estimate the maxima of some variables and it overflows somewhere
20:05:22 <TrueBrain> even in my off hours, I have to troubleshoot networks :(
20:08:05 <andythenorth> frosch123: the only weird thing is that FIRS fails at 2048x2048, but default industries doesn't. Neither does PBI.
20:09:03 <andythenorth> ECS however has the same issue
20:09:46 <George> andythenorth: Fails? What do you mean&
20:10:11 <andythenorth> strange numbers of industries.
20:10:19 <George> It takes 5 minutes to generate the map here, but I can't say it means FAIL
20:10:36 <George> what do you mean STRANGE?
20:11:31 <frosch123> ok, andy, reproduced :)
20:12:58 <Sacro> TrueBrain: we had a housemate connect a hub and a router that were already connecteed
20:13:19 <Sacro> instant 100% usage and i recived about 10 billion packets in a minute
20:13:44 <Alberth> that should be enough for a lifetime :)
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20:16:16 <frosch123> haha, RandomRange only takes an uint16
20:16:33 <frosch123> so passing 200704 is troublesome :)
20:19:02 * Terkhen wonders if anyone besides andythenorth uses violet as the land colour for the smallmap
20:19:34 <planetmaker> Terkhen: it can be pretty nice
20:19:37 * andythenorth wonders why everyone doesn't :o
20:19:49 <planetmaker> and I'd assume it's even nicer for those with red/green issues
20:22:38 <Terkhen> dark green is enough to solve them for me... I find violet too dark
20:23:08 <Terkhen> the industries can be seen more clearly, but not the roads
20:23:35 <planetmaker> granted, I use the green contour version
20:29:44 <oal> I'm totally addicted to OpenTTD ... again! :/
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21:21:45 <Rubidium> Q: what error message would you use to tell a cactus can't be built outside the desert and rain forest trees can't be built outside the rain forest?
21:22:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19643 /trunk/src/ (core/random_func.cpp core/random_func.hpp industry_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r19120): Industry generation failed for large maps and lots of industry types.
21:22:43 <Rubidium> "wrong climate for tree type" <- interferes with climates for the whole landscape, i.e. someone might assume that if the cactus can't be build in the tropic climate it should be build in temperate/arctic
21:23:14 <Yexo> Rubidium / TrueBrain: is the source for webtranslator public? if so, where I can download it?
21:23:19 <Rubidium> "wrong terrain for tree type" <- interferes with the terrain type setting from the world generation window (terrain type: ... flat)
21:23:28 <Rubidium> Yexo: it isn't public (yet)
21:24:11 <Rubidium> I can't make it public in any case though
21:25:07 <Progman> "wrong ground (type) for tree type"?
21:25:08 <Rubidium> because I'm not the copyright owner? Because he had plans of making it a separate project
21:25:42 <Yexo> you're saying I should ask TrueBrain instead of you :)
21:27:00 <Rubidium> yes, although you technically have access to its source code
21:27:22 <TrueBrain> the only reason I never made WT3.0 public, is that I do not want to support it on any other system, as that is kind of impossible :p
21:27:30 <TrueBrain> it is held together with .. well .. lot of glue :p
21:27:50 <TrueBrain> WT3.1 is started, but Rubidium shut down the VPS :p
21:27:58 <planetmaker> it has a very deserted channel at #webtranslator :-(
21:28:02 <TrueBrain> and yes, you can view the source via your developers account
21:28:09 *** welshdragon is now known as Guest228
21:28:13 <Yexo> just viewing the source wasn't the point
21:28:39 <Yexo> TrueBrain: for you information: I'm (together with Hirundo) creating a meta language for nfo
21:28:40 <TrueBrain> Yexo: then what is?
21:28:56 <Yexo> so far the language files look a lot like the openttd language files
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21:29:18 <Yexo> so I hoped wt could be used for such projects too
21:29:22 <str00tz> if i made some kinda stupid mistake at the start of a game, can i reset myself ?
21:29:26 <TrueBrain> it is a complete mess
21:29:31 <TrueBrain> WT3.1 should be able, but it is far from finished
21:29:34 <glx> you need language files for nfo meta language?
21:29:49 <Yexo> glx: yes, for all strings that are part of the nfo normally
21:30:26 <Rubidium> it's not to translate the nfo meta language, but to translate the projects using the language
21:30:41 <Rubidium> (or at least, that's what I understand of it)
21:30:51 <Yexo> ^^that's true, I should've made that clearer
21:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> str00tz: you can start a game with the same random seed, to get the same map again
21:31:05 <glx> ha that's just grf translations then
21:31:24 <planetmaker> glx: well. 'just' ;-)
21:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> str00tz: you can get the current random seed from the ingame console
21:31:28 <Yexo> str00tz: open the console (key left of 1 on your keyboard), then type "reset"
21:31:35 <str00tz> Eddi|zuHause, but not in multiplayer right ?
21:31:41 <glx> and meta language just ease the insertion of translations in the grf
21:32:00 <str00tz> Yexo, i get error tho
21:32:01 <frosch123> nfo translation and ottd translation is quite different wrt. control codes, isn't it?
21:32:01 <Yexo> but that's for singleplayer too, not for multiplayer
21:32:17 <frosch123> i.e. in nfo you have no genders and cases, and you cannot reorder parameters either
21:32:19 <str00tz> dso if i screw up in multi, i ..well, have to just leave
21:32:22 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes. But if you use a meta language you can translate
21:32:27 <frosch123> otoh you have other parameters
21:32:41 <Yexo> frosch123: I didn't like the nfo control codes, so I'm parsing codes that look like those inthe openttd language files
21:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> nfo-languages really need genders
21:32:51 <frosch123> planetmaker: what do you want to do?
21:33:11 <Rubidium> Progman: good idea, but I doubt it's purely "ground", i.e. soil, that differentiates non-rainforest and rain forest
21:33:13 <frosch123> a metalanguage removes none of the restrictions i mentioned
21:33:22 *** Guest228 is now known as welshdragon
21:33:38 <Rubidium> but then, I've not studied the subject intensely
21:33:38 <planetmaker> frosch123: it doesn't. But it allows to use for those features which are common to use the same syntax
21:34:15 <Yexo> str00tz: move yourself to spectators, then start a new company
21:35:16 <planetmaker> frosch123: and: there might be some feature requests lurking ;-)
21:35:31 <Yexo> <frosch123> i.e. in nfo you have no genders and cases, and you cannot reorder parameters either <- yes, so the grf-translations are a lot simpeler
21:37:11 <frosch123> planetmaker: just don't tell mb or similiar :) they might answer to distinguish languages inside action2 to rearrange parameters. (which is not possible in ottd due to desyncs)
21:37:17 <Yexo> but ok, if wt3 isn't useable I'll leave that idea for now
21:37:34 <planetmaker> haha @ frosch123 :-)
21:38:09 <Rubidium> why would mb care about order? As long as it's the German order it's correct. Anything but German isn't correct for a German train set
21:38:32 <frosch123> Rubidium: mb plays french version of ttd
21:38:46 <frosch123> and does turkish translations on ttdp wiki
21:38:56 <Yexo> with some tricky usage of byte "86 rotate down top 4 words on stack" it might actually be possible to rotate parameters in a newgrf string
21:39:10 <frosch123> so, either he is googling all day for train terms in foreign languages, or he knows some languages
21:42:23 <Rubidium> frosch123: definitely googling... after all, how can you know so many trains to play in that guess the train topic?
21:43:16 <frosch123> sounds like tt-forums off-topic :p
21:46:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19644 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt tree_cmd.cpp):
21:46:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3728]: don't allow building cacti outside of the desert or rain forest
21:46:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: trees outside of the rain forest area. This to prevent people from thinking
21:46:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: planting rain forest trees makes the rain forest bigger and thus adds more place
21:46:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: to build a lumber mill.
21:58:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19645 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Doc: mention the zlib 1.2.3.5-1.2.4 gzeof issue in known-bugs
22:02:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19646 /branches/1.0/ (12 files in 7 dirs): (log message trimmed)
22:02:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
22:02:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Change: Log the _date and _date_fract in the desync log for saved games (r19638)
22:02:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not allow building cacti outside of the desert or rain forest trees
22:02:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: outside of the rain forest area. This to prevent people from thinking planting
22:02:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rain forest trees makes the rain forest bigger and thus adds more place to build
22:02:51 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: a lumber mill [FS#3728] (r19644, r19635, r19634)
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22:13:45 <amalloy> i'm trying to host a game, but i can't figure out how to make it work. i've set up port forwarding on my router, and a random stranger joined my game, but neither my friend nor i can join it evenn via my IP. any ideas?
22:14:05 <amalloy> well, that was fast. my friend was just being dumb. never mind :)
22:18:18 <Rubidium> amalloy: due to the "design" of most consumer internet modems/routers you cannot connect from the internal network to the port forwarded port on the external IP; it is actually quite unusual if it supports it
22:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause> why do i have to laugh about the sentence "This is a known feature"? :p
22:54:01 <Rubidium> because you didn't know laughing is a feature of the human body?
22:54:39 <Rubidium> why doesn't var_dump work in C++?
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