IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-04-14
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06:46:21 <ccfreak2k> In case anyone missed it.
06:47:03 <planetmaker> morning dihedral :-)
06:47:25 <dihedral> crap - cannot ssh to my server :-S
06:47:33 <dihedral> but other than that i am doing ok
06:48:43 <planetmaker> good to hear the latter :-)
06:48:57 <planetmaker> about the first: oom issues or what's with your server?
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06:57:29 <amalloy> can someone explain to me why the signaling at http://malloys.org/~akm/train.png doesn't work? it seems like it's straight out of the examples, but it only half-works: trains entering the right platform prevent other trains from getting to the left platform, but the other way round it works
07:02:09 <Mazur> But then again, I'm a dead noob, myself.
07:02:19 <Keyboard_Warrior> amalloy, lets seee
07:02:57 <Keyboard_Warrior> i call abuse on pbs signals
07:04:08 <Keyboard_Warrior> Mazur, might be because the train waiting to enter, needs to exit upwards
07:04:25 <Keyboard_Warrior> instead of down
07:04:32 <SirSquidness> Mazur: click on the train waiting to enter
07:04:32 <Keyboard_Warrior> where as the lower platform only lets you go down
07:04:36 <SirSquidness> see if it says "waiting for free path"
07:04:48 <elmz> amalloy: try having 1 square of straight track behind the station.
07:04:52 <Cadde> Are you missing a piece of track?
07:04:57 <amalloy> behind, as in before entry, or after exit?
07:05:12 <Keyboard_Warrior> amalloy, i figure if you add a track for the lower platform
07:05:18 <Keyboard_Warrior> going to the gigant intersection thingy
07:05:23 <SirSquidness> amalloy: tell the train to turn around twice
07:05:26 <Keyboard_Warrior> it will be happy about using the lower platform
07:05:27 <SirSquidness> that will make it move
07:05:28 <Cadde> amalloy: I see you have an exiting way that isn't connected to the leftmost platform
07:05:42 <Keyboard_Warrior> yes, thats my thoughts
07:05:45 <amalloy> ah, that's a good point
07:06:05 <Keyboard_Warrior> also, you might want to make that presignal 1way only
07:06:13 <Keyboard_Warrior> i think that prevents trains from turning
07:06:24 <Keyboard_Warrior> and waiting eternatly for free path
07:06:31 <Keyboard_Warrior> the entry one that is
07:06:57 <Keyboard_Warrior> ctrl click on it once with the signal tool on
07:07:04 <Keyboard_Warrior> to make it a 1 way pbs signal
07:07:06 <amalloy> i think you're right re the missing track, but i don't see why the pbs should be one-way. the pathfinder penalizes going the wrong way, and there's a one-way signal right behind it anyway
07:07:13 <SirSquidness> might also want to look in to doing a little bit of work and make the entry to that station longer before it joins the mainline
07:07:19 <SirSquidness> perhaps split before the trunnel entry
07:07:38 <Keyboard_Warrior> also learn about cl
07:07:52 <Keyboard_Warrior> 45-45 degree corners == SLOOOOW
07:07:55 <Keyboard_Warrior> corner lenght
07:08:15 <amalloy> oh, yeah, i know. i try to avoid those but honestly just making a 3-way junction is challenging enough for now
07:08:24 <amalloy> once i get more practice i'll make efficient ones
07:08:27 <Cadde> I would also suggest that but my gut feelign tells me he will learn about all this in due time.
07:08:43 <Keyboard_Warrior> Cadde, well good building practices starts early, methinks
07:08:58 <Cadde> My brother hates me nitpickong on his building style
07:09:09 <Cadde> After all, it's a game and we all started "ugly"
07:09:27 <elmz> I'm a sucker for symmetry ^^
07:09:29 <Keyboard_Warrior> Cadde, sure, but when people play for years doing it wrong because they dont know better
07:09:47 <Keyboard_Warrior> i prefer telling them the right way as soon as i can :P
07:09:47 <Cadde> My goal was to improve everything eventually
07:10:09 <Cadde> It ended up with me building junctions that took some 200 x 200 tiles
07:10:34 <Cadde> Until i realized they wouldn't fit anywhere
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07:10:43 <elmz> hehe, I played for ages simply copying the TDD AI (without the absurd elements that is)
07:11:12 <elmz> when I figured out the whole thing with double tracks and junctions I was like "WOW" ^^
07:11:33 <Keyboard_Warrior> elmz, heh, i mostly learned by copying people in online games
07:11:37 <Cadde> But it was a 3 track 4 way junction with LONG trains and 6 tile turns
07:11:46 <Keyboard_Warrior> reading stuff on the internet.
07:11:58 <Keyboard_Warrior> and asking in game with signs what stuff did
07:12:04 <elmz> Keyboard_Warrior: it was back in original TTD, not much online play back then ^^
07:12:09 <Cadde> ... With load balancers btw
07:12:11 <Keyboard_Warrior> elmz, admitedtly :p
07:12:46 <Keyboard_Warrior> Cadde, 6tile turns still shouldnt require a 200x200 area
07:12:53 <Keyboard_Warrior> unless you're being way innefficient :p
07:12:56 <elmz> more advanced stuff I learned from orudge's site and openttdcoop later on ^^
07:13:23 <Cadde> How about supporting some 150 trains a minute?
07:13:30 <Cadde> Then it would seem quite efficient
07:13:31 <Keyboard_Warrior> the largest junction i ever saw, was a 5 way junction with cl8
07:14:03 <Keyboard_Warrior> Cadde, efficient sure, but you could cram more trains into that space with a bit of thinking ahead when building
07:14:38 <Cadde> Too bad i don't have the savegames for that anymore.
07:14:41 <Keyboard_Warrior> that junction was so obtuse and huge, you couldnt fit it all on your monitor when zoomed in
07:14:53 <Keyboard_Warrior> and trying to work out how it worked to do modifications on it
07:14:55 <Keyboard_Warrior> was a nightmare :p
07:14:56 <elmz> in my latest game I have quad main lines (4 tracks each direction) and I have 4-way junctions with cl5. my biggest ones so far ^^
07:16:12 <Cadde> The sweet thing about the junction was that only 0.5% of all trains entering it actaully had to stop at a signal
07:16:45 <elmz> what junction are we talking about? :)
07:17:01 <amalloy> two different junctions in parallel, methinks
07:17:22 <Cadde> And that 0.5% (which wasn't actually 0.5 but you know, guesstimate) bugged me to no end. I just wanted it to flow endlessly.
07:18:58 <Cadde> On a side note, Cargodist has lost it's mind. It wants to send 1,000 passengers by bus to a bus station in the middle of nowhere. All this while a train that can take 520 passengers comes by every 2 minutes.
07:19:20 <amalloy> there's a tourist trap at the bus station
07:20:26 <elmz> lol @ the Avoiding Continuums article ^^ the guy wanting an oxygen sensor for his car clearly shouldn'r have gone to the Zimbabwean amazon ^^
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07:22:08 <amalloy> so i have an interesting option available to me here, and i don't know if it's any good. i have a steel mill at station A, and station B is next to an ore mine as well as a factory. does it make sense to have a train carry steel to B, refit for ore, and come back to A? or should i just use twice as many trains?
07:22:59 <Cadde> Wait, is it even possible to refit a train with steel trollies to iron ore?
07:23:39 <elmz> I'd do twice the trains. AND two separate stations at the factory end.
07:23:55 <amalloy> oh hrm, maybe it's not. i thought it was cause i keep misreading the capacities of the wagons
07:24:25 <elmz> you don't want steel trains going to the factory to have to wait for iron ore trains to load
07:24:40 <Cadde> However it would be sweet if one could detach it's wagons and pick up another set of wagons.
07:25:06 <amalloy> but surely one twice-as-large station is just as good as two stations, right?
07:25:35 <amalloy> unless for some reason i had way too many trains waiting to load, i guess
07:25:41 <Cadde> It all depends on the situation amalloy, if traffic is light i would opt for using a few platforms
07:25:45 <elmz> should be okay as long as you have more platforms than iron ore trains
07:26:10 <elmz> or, loading trains in general
07:27:11 <elmz> at a factory I normally have separate stations for unloading and loading trains.
07:27:32 <amalloy> yeah. if i end up actually supplying all its materials i'll do that too
07:27:33 <elmz> same with sawmill, oil refineries etc
07:27:39 <Cadde> Drag&Drop, non uniform stations and max station spread 64 is nice incase one didn't know about that
07:27:42 <amalloy> so far i only have steel
07:28:54 <amalloy> but this is the first game i've even managed to get a 1x1 track from one side of the map to the other. /later/ will come more efficient junctions and stations
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07:35:40 <amalloy> whatever the default is
07:35:55 <amalloy> i can see all four edges at the widest zoom
07:35:56 <elmz> I wouldn¨t know what that is ^^
07:36:29 <elmz> 256 is the old TDD size at least
07:36:38 <Cadde> And widest zoom depends on your resolution.
07:37:12 <amalloy> oh, i guess it would. 1024x768
07:37:12 <Cadde> 1024x768 judging by the SS
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07:37:27 * holyduck slaps Keyboard_Warrior for internet dying
07:38:01 <elmz> I like bigger maps, I normally play 2048x2048. but too bad the map generator is useless for that size maps
07:38:03 * Cadde feels a very strong urge to play on 32768 x 32768 maps.
07:38:06 <holyduck> so speaking of stations, i love making gigant fake docs.
07:38:16 <elmz> totally litters the map with towns and industries
07:38:36 <holyduck> elmz, also that kind of map is really too huge to trully fill with trains
07:38:42 <elmz> Cadde: oh yes bring it on :D
07:38:43 <holyduck> before your pc starts breaking up :P
07:38:46 <amalloy> incidentally, the choochoo and pathzilla AIs don't entirely work for me. choochoo builds nonsense broken networks, and pathzilla plays great but crashes eventually. how do i report this?
07:38:47 <Cadde> Also, ECS doesn't litter the map
07:39:10 <amalloy> oh! and what is ECS? i'm always afraid to try it in case it conflicts with something else i've added
07:39:47 <Cadde> ECS (Extended Cargo Scheme
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07:39:53 <elmz> holyduck: nah, I have played a 2048 map and filled it with several thousand trains :P
07:40:55 <elmz> Cadde: I always make my own scenarios
07:41:13 <holyduck> elmz, well its more of a internet problem i gues
07:41:16 <Cadde> And when you hit many random industries the GRF manages how many of each there is
07:41:22 <holyduck> in a sp game, you dont have to deal with other clients wanting the stuff aswell
07:41:26 <holyduck> and knowing whats going on
07:42:01 <planetmaker> [09:38] <amalloy> incidentally, the choochoo and pathzilla AIs don't entirely work for me. choochoo builds nonsense broken networks, and pathzilla plays great but crashes eventually. how do i report this? <-- in the respective AI's thread in the forums
07:42:11 <Cadde> Currently i am running with Chill's 4.2 patchpack and programmable signals. More heightlevels patch makes BEUTIFUL maps
07:42:13 <elmz> I don't play much online, sometimes pllay against a friend of mine
07:42:45 <Cadde> If it is you report in on flyspray
07:42:58 <planetmaker> The AIs are like newgrfs. They're extensions
07:43:51 <planetmaker> can be written by anyone who dares to tackle squirrel
07:43:59 <Cadde> Oh wait, i kinda missed the whole point. I responded to your responce :P
07:45:38 <planetmaker> also I think that ChoCho is capable of building quite beautiful networks :-)
07:45:39 <amalloy> jeez the full ECS is huge. i tried FIRS for a while but found it a bit too much; ECS looks overwhelming. once i've got the hang of PBI i'll try some ECS stuff though
07:45:57 <planetmaker> If FIRS is too much, ECS is worse ;-)
07:46:16 <Cadde> FIRS has 32 cargoes and 37 industries(?) while ECS has 32 cargoes and 39 industries
07:46:24 * holyduck plays with almost all the station newgrfs, and hardly anything else
07:46:36 <planetmaker> dunno the numbers.
07:47:01 <planetmaker> I'm sure FIRS has more industries, though ;-)
07:47:05 <Cadde> I am running FIRS now but i fear it's less complex. I hope not, i like complexity
07:47:14 <planetmaker> But not the annoying stockpiles and so on
07:47:46 <holyduck> Cadde, where is the fun in needless complexity? :p
07:47:49 * Cadde likes stockpiles, though i would like them to be larger than in ECS
07:47:50 <planetmaker> FIRS is meant to be less complex in some respect than ECS, forcing less micromanagement on the player
07:47:56 <planetmaker> holyduck: exactly :-)
07:48:24 <holyduck> Cadde, like having to ask the goverment to build new train lines
07:49:09 <Cadde> Heh, well... I am running daylength at 8 and everything ULTRA expensive. Most of the time right now i am just looking at my balance waiting for enough money to pour in to build the next thing. I don't mind doing some micromanagement while i wait :D
07:50:13 <Cadde> Actually, thats the whole point. I am getting tired at being able to flatten the entire map and build a super efficient network with no worries.
07:50:26 <holyduck> Cadde, just because you're ABLE to
07:50:29 <holyduck> doesnt mean you HAVE to :P
07:50:45 <holyduck> you could just enforce tf rules on yourself
07:50:49 <planetmaker> Cadde: and do you always have a score of 1000 points? :-)
07:50:50 <Cadde> But then i win the game after i made my 101st billion dollars.
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07:51:13 <planetmaker> do you use planes?
07:51:25 <Cadde> No, i haven't scored ever... lol :P
07:51:26 <holyduck> Cadde, cant the fun be in building a massive, well working network connecting every industry?
07:51:36 <planetmaker> do you restrict your terraforming to "minimal" - the slightest amount needed to just build a bridge or tunnel?
07:52:05 <planetmaker> this game is not about money. Money is also not what gives you ranks in the 2050 ranking newspaper
07:52:07 <peter1138> hmm, or teamfortress
07:52:14 <peter1138> or ... landscaping ;)
07:52:25 <Cadde> I couldn't give a flying shit about the 2050 newpaper.
07:52:55 <planetmaker> Cadde: but that's what the game is about: scroing 1000/1000 points in that winning screen ;-)
07:53:08 <planetmaker> that's the hightscore list, not the money ;-)
07:53:23 <Cadde> Pff, i don't want to babysit some numbers.
07:53:30 <Cadde> I want to babysit my transport empire
07:53:55 <planetmaker> yeah... that's what those numbers reflect: size, quality and efficiency of your company ;-)
07:53:59 <planetmaker> have you ever looked at?
07:54:51 <Cadde> It's like measuring your wang... Does that measurement mean anything when you poke the beaver?
07:55:24 <planetmaker> does your money mean anything? except an openly visible felt measure for the size of your wang?
07:55:35 <Cadde> To me, TTD doesn't end with a single score.
07:55:57 <planetmaker> neither does it for me. I care little about money and scores.
07:56:01 <amalloy> i don't think it ends there for anyone'
07:56:14 <planetmaker> it's just that people care mostly only about their money. Sill with this game
07:56:20 <Cadde> And no, money isn't my end goal either. The point i wanted to get across is, once you are making billions it's not fun anymore because then you are just building stuff.
07:56:51 * planetmaker is "just building stuff" after I payed off my loan. Which is after ~5 ingame years usually
07:57:22 <Cadde> Until you get bored and open a viewport at 0,0 and go to 2048,2048 and drag the demolition tool from viewport to main screen :)
07:57:24 <amalloy> i don't really see what you guys are even arguing about here. Cadde likes the challenge of struggling against a limiting factor (very low income), and planetmaker likes to challenge of building a "perfect" network. these are both reasonable and enjoyable facets of the game
07:59:12 <Cadde> Yay, first year has passed. Repaid my loan. Now i shall make my next train line!
07:59:45 <Cadde> It's going to be a costly build
08:02:09 <Cadde> Oh but for the love of god, this is going to take forever. :P
08:02:59 <amalloy> heh. you can't have it both ways. either you like struggling under your low income or you don't
08:03:29 <amalloy> no whining about your awesome playstyle :)
08:03:44 <Cadde> Yeah, i am going to be quite happy once the money starts rolling in
08:04:02 <Cadde> I am not whining. I am expressing my joy
08:04:39 * Cadde resists urge to hit the fast forward button
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08:20:18 * Rubidium wonders what "happened" yesterday to cause a new record in bananas and binary downloads
08:21:22 <TrueBrain> even surpassed the Slashdot ...
08:22:36 *** planetmaker has joined #openttd
08:24:21 <TrueBrain> gave 12k visitors (via referer)
08:24:42 <TrueBrain> linuxgames.com is good for 1.5k
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08:24:49 <planetmaker> yeah... German most-selling daily newspaper.
08:24:56 <planetmaker> Though the lowest-aiming one, too ;-)
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08:25:20 <planetmaker> hello TrueBrain :-)
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08:28:26 <TrueBrain> who would have guess that it would produce more than slashdot :p
08:28:44 <TrueBrain> owh, make that 14k visitors, it started the day before too (logrotate days)
08:29:26 <Cadde> Rubidium: No, it was just me...
08:29:36 <Rubidium> it's good to see that 1.0.0 has significantly more downloads than beta1 now :)
08:30:24 <Rubidium> 4600 average over last 30 days compared to the previous (1.0.0-beta) peak of a little less than 4100
08:30:48 <Rubidium> for bananas it's 48k vs 38k
08:32:51 <Rubidium> planetmaker: could you see a new peak too for #openttdcoop?
08:34:27 <planetmaker> not for the devzone/bundles.
08:34:46 <planetmaker> Wiki / www got increased traffic from 5th April on. More or less constant, though
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08:35:26 <Rubidium> so they're likely using "our" mirror now
08:35:47 <planetmaker> bundles / dev is on the level as in March right now
08:37:21 <planetmaker> hm... seems google updated. There's 20% more yesterday than the average of the 4 days before.
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08:40:21 <plantain> Hey, openttd 1.0.0 is running horribly slowly on my computer (C2D 2.8Ghz w/ nvidia 8400gs)
08:40:54 <Rubidium> using Ubuntu or Mac OS X?
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08:45:03 <Rubidium> planetmaker: are you using Ubuntu or Mac OS X?
08:45:11 <Rubidium> plantain: are you using Ubuntu or Mac OS X?
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09:04:06 <planetmaker> :-) Not ubuntu here ;-)
09:07:12 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I don't think he wants the help ;)
09:08:21 <Cadde> TrueBrain: I think he timed out and is back in the channel.
09:08:26 <aber1> plantain: What os are you using?
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09:14:01 <dihedral> plantain: and why do you use gentoo? :-P
09:15:07 <TrueBrain> Gentoo rules them all
09:15:11 <planetmaker> but nobody needs to ;-)
09:15:29 <TrueBrain> we could all start using 1 OS
09:15:47 <planetmaker> let's use DOS 3.3
09:16:09 <TrueBrain> I would go for 2.1, but sure, 3.3 is fine by me
09:16:16 <TrueBrain> also, lets all start using the same hardware
09:16:19 <TrueBrain> solves those issues too
09:16:23 <planetmaker> I just happen to still have it on two disks... :-)
09:16:41 <planetmaker> floppy disks that is. 5.25"
09:16:42 <Cadde> It's bad enough we have PISS3's and XBAWKSES
09:16:45 <TrueBrain> I have been working with DOS a lot this last year :p
09:17:32 <Cadde> However, i could stretch as far as having COMPATIBLE hardware.
09:18:56 <Rubidium> plantain: by any chance using allegro instead of sdl as video backend?
09:20:15 <Rubidium> then I have absolutely no idea why it's slow
09:20:42 <Rubidium> oh, maybe compiz or so? Ammler what did cause that slowness for you?
09:20:45 <plantain> maybe I should profile it
09:20:52 <peter1138> debug build running a 2048x2048 map with 65k vehicles? heh
09:21:03 <plantain> i don't use a standaard window manager
09:21:16 <plantain> small maps with admiral ai
09:21:30 <plantain> even the start screen is slow though
09:22:13 <TrueBrain> ./openttd -snull -mnull
09:22:36 <TrueBrain> ./openttd -snull -mnull -vsdl
09:23:01 <Rubidium> could you do a "time openttd -g <path to openttd install>/data/opntitle.dat -vnull -snull -mnull"?
09:24:40 <Rubidium> please run that a few times and give the average real and user times once they stabilise
09:37:15 <plantain> hmm, that didn't seem to help
09:37:36 <plantain> 0.27user 0.08system 0:00.62elapsed 57%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 32144maxresident)k
09:39:58 <Rubidium> so it takes 0.6 seconds real and 0.3 user. That's roughly equivalent to my number (with 2.5GHz C2D T9400).
09:40:20 <Rubidium> so OpenTTD itself isn't slow, the drawing to the video device is slow
09:41:09 <Rubidium> does "openttd -b32bpp-optimized" make it faster?
09:42:17 <Rubidium> so it's SDL drawing (converting?) the 8bits stuff that's slow
09:42:34 <plantain> that's much better, although scrolling tears horribly
09:42:34 <Rubidium> and for some reason it's not offloaded to the video card
09:43:12 <plantain> I am using the binary version from the site rather than the one in gentoo
09:43:48 <Rubidium> that shouldn't matter; you're using the SDL from Gentoo
09:46:45 <Rubidium> so as I said: the slowness is caused somewhere in SDL or the video card driver. Not much "we" can do about :(
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09:53:22 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19625 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#3722]: strange message when unpausing because there are enough players, unclear message when an unexpected/invalid packet is received
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09:55:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19626 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: mention libtimidity in ./configure --help (planetmaker)
09:55:57 <dihedral> which video driver are you using plantain
09:58:32 <plantain> is there any profiler I could run on it that might shed some light?
09:59:59 <Rubidium> the problem with profilers is that they (usually) only instrument (profile) OpenTTD and thus anything that is horribly slow but called from OpenTTD is totally ignored, so e.g. a slow SDL/video card driver does not show up in the profile
10:00:30 <Rubidium> unless you compile those with profiling enabled too, but you can't do that with the nvidia driver and I wonder whether profiling in kernel-land works either
10:00:58 <plantain> is anyone else here using the nvidia binary drivers? if so which version?
10:01:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19627 /trunk/config.lib:
10:01:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Fix [OSX]: mark the macports default include directory as a system include directory so our -W flags don't cause warnings on headers in there (planetmaker)
10:01:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: As this is a OS X patch... I have not and cannot test it, so if it breaks your system: do not blame me!
10:02:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Bjarni
10:05:17 <plantain> okay, I'll roll back to them and try
10:05:26 <dihedral> i am on ubuntu though ^^
10:05:36 <Rubidium> that was a short visit of Bjarni... did the OSX trigger something in him?
10:05:53 <dihedral> + compiz + pulseaudio ...
10:06:11 <dihedral> Rubidium: perhaps he remembered how everybody reacts when he joins and had second thoughts :-P
10:07:51 <plantain> so how does that-b32bpp-optimizedflag work?
10:10:01 <Rubidium> it changes the blitter from fast (in OpenTTD!) 8bpp to a slow (in OpenTTD) 32bpp blitter so it can write 32bpp graphics to the video card instead of 8bpp graphics
10:10:41 <Ammler> I am using KDE's own composite manager. But that had nothing to do with openttd, iirc.
10:11:25 <Ammler> oh, and good day guys. :-)
10:16:16 <plantain> hmm, going back to that version of nvidia's drivers requires going back to xorg 1.6.5 too
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10:27:56 <ccfreak2k> plantain, which OS are you using again?
10:29:44 <aber> i believe he said gentoo Linux
10:31:25 <aber> ccfreak2k: or in german it would be Eselpinguin
10:32:03 <ccfreak2k> He may have benefited from using the opengl patch then.
10:34:49 <Wizzleby> he also said he was using the openttd binary from upstream, not gentoo's version.. However, I'd like a look at the opengl patch if possible, I'm handling preparing openttd-1.0.0 for inclusion in gentoo's portage tree
10:35:48 <Wizzleby> Rubidium: before openttd-1.0.0 goes into portage tree, our games lead wants the build system to not pass CFLAGS to CXX. I've written a patch that addresses this, but being unfamilliar with the internals of the openttd build system, I'd prefer to have upstream's view on the patch, ways in which I could clean it up , and whether it's completely out of line with openttd's build system, or whether it's viable (after cleanup
10:35:48 <Wizzleby> perhaps) for upstream inclusion
10:36:26 <peter1138> there's no working opengl patch
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10:43:58 <ccfreak2k> Wizzleby, the opengl patch is oooold.
10:44:24 <ccfreak2k> It's not going to apply to 1.0 without a fight.
10:44:34 <Wizzleby> Well, no worries about that then
10:44:36 <ccfreak2k> Which is too bad. It had much potential.
10:44:39 <plantain> yes, gentoo ccfreak2k
10:44:52 <Wizzleby> plantain: have you tried the version in gamerlay overlay?
10:45:15 <plantain> I haven't, I'll add it and try that now
10:45:48 <Wizzleby> all the build deps for openttd are now in portage, openttd-1.0.0 will be in portage once Mr_Bones is satisfied that we're not passing CFLAGS to the C++ compiler
10:46:11 <Wizzleby> the version in gamerlay currently does not fit that criterion, but it does build and work
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10:47:36 <Rubidium> Wizzleby: is passing CXXFLAGS to the C compiler considered bad?
10:48:06 <planetmaker> Wizzleby, that'd be quite... unwelcome actually
10:48:48 <Rubidium> oh, that reminds me... does it break gcc 4.5's LTO compilation?
10:49:41 <blathijs> Rubidium: I think the issue was ther reverse, passing CFLAGS to CXX
10:49:59 <Wizzleby> Rubidium: it can cause some weirdness, yes. If a user has CFLAGS defined globally, and in their CFLAGS are flags valid only for C (but not C++, it generates a lot of noise) wrt gcc4.5, I can let you know once I have my laptop functioning again, where I have gcc 4.5 for testing
10:50:00 <blathijs> And I'd say both of them are somewhat unexpected
10:50:22 <Wizzleby> planetmaker: how come?
10:50:24 <blathijs> OTOH, if you put -g in CFLAGS, I guess you sortof expect it to work with CXX as well
10:50:38 <Rubidium> blathijs: yeah, but... cflags/cxxflags is (partially) passed into ldflags which is passed to both g++ and gcc (for PSP)
10:51:04 <planetmaker> Wizzleby, :-) I understood you somewhat wrongly it seems. global flags passed on to their respective compiler is what I understood. The the respective other one... dunno :-) You're probably right
10:51:33 <planetmaker> vacuum cleaners suck, too ;-)
10:51:46 <Rubidium> anyhow, some parameters (c(xx)flags) are required to be in ldflags for lto. If they are not lto fails linking/optimising in many interesting ways
10:52:27 <Rubidium> if you split cflags and cxxflags there is no guarantee that the required flags for lto are in ldflags and cflags and cxxflags agree with eachother on those flags
10:52:42 <blathijs> Rubidium: Isn't that the responsibility of the one setting the CFLAGS then, to put them in CXXFLAGS and LDFLAGS wehere needed?
10:52:50 <Wizzleby> Rubidium: ok. well I'll report back once I've tested with 4.5, I did try to account for that possibility but won't know if it worked till I can test it
10:53:05 <Rubidium> so technically splitting cflags and cxxflags can break lto under circumstances
10:54:20 <Rubidium> nevertheless, OpenTTD does not have any C so only CXXFLAGS should be considered... but virtually *everyone* uses CFLAGS to pass stuff to configures etc
10:54:51 <Rubidium> so effectively this change breaks (almost) everyone's workflow
10:55:09 <Wizzleby> The patch currently attempts to make sure that CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS end up virtually identical
10:55:41 <Rubidium> the stuff OpenTTD adds to it, yes... but the stuff coming from "the environment" doesn't
10:56:57 <Wizzleby> Rubidium: what about a switch then to configure, that we at gentoo can simply toggle, For example --disable-cxxflags-as-cflags
10:58:48 <Wizzleby> for example, leaving the default behaviour as it was, and enabling this patch's implemented workflow only when the user runs configure with the (non-default) option
10:59:06 <Wizzleby> I certainly don't wish to mess with anyone else's workflow
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11:00:26 <Rubidium> but technically you're asking for NOT passing CFLAGS into OpenTTD's compile stuff, right?
11:01:06 <Rubidium> as everything's compiled as C++
11:02:00 <amalloy> sorry to butt into this compiler discussion...is there a reason my truck (Access Rigel with Hopper Trailer) would be unable to go to a lorry loading bay next to a coal mine? when i try to give it a Go To order, it just says "vehicle can't go to that station"
11:02:28 <Rubidium> amalloy: they can only go to drive through stops
11:02:29 <peter1138> yes, articulated vehicles can only stop at drive-through bays
11:02:47 <peter1138> cos the drivers are dumb and can't reverse
11:02:50 <amalloy> oh, i didn't even know it was articulated
11:03:07 <amalloy> how can i tell the difference?
11:03:17 <Wizzleby> Rubidium: hm, thanks for pointing that out. You're correct then, all we'd need to do is optionally respect CXXFLAGS instead of CFLAGS
11:03:23 <Rubidium> Wizzleby: what's Gentoo's concensus on passing cflags from configure scripts to cxxflags? E.g. sdl-config has no --cxxflags
11:04:02 <Rubidium> Wizzleby: so ./configure CFLAGS="$CXXFLAGS" should do the trick; maybe even ./configure CFLAGS=""
11:04:37 <Rubidium> it will pass sdl-config's CFLAGS to CXXFLAGS though
11:05:23 <peter1138> indeed pkg-config only has --cflags, not --cxxflags
11:05:35 <Wizzleby> well.. sdl-config doesn't seem to pass us any C only CFLAGS, that's probably ok
11:06:49 <Rubidium> but what if some CRAZY Gentoo users were to pass some C-only CFLAGS to SDL's compile that end up in there?
11:07:02 <Rubidium> or in, as peter1138 said, any pkg-config configured package?
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11:09:47 <Wizzleby> I'm not entirely sure their crazy cflags used to build sdl would make it into the output of sdl-config --cflags, on my system that only outputs '-I/usr/include/SDL -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 -D_REENTRANT', which is short of my global CFLAGS setting
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11:10:52 <Rubidium> neither am I, but... I'm no expert on compiling sdl or anything pkg-config related
11:11:58 <Rubidium> still it's conceptually wrong to pass --cflags to CXXFLAGS if I must believe Gentoo
11:12:23 <peter1138> heh, and we have to strip _GNU_SOURCE
11:12:37 <Wizzleby> why strip -D_GNU_SOURCE?
11:12:54 <Rubidium> # SDL must not add _GNU_SOURCE as it breaks many platforms
11:13:13 <Wizzleby> oh, right... I was just looking at that too
11:15:00 <peter1138> i don't remember what it breaks, or why, mind you
11:15:06 <Wizzleby> well, the build system does strip that out. AFAIK, the stipulation against passing CFLAGS to CXX is in the context of where we are pulling CFLAGS from the user's make.conf, which is a circumstance in which it can contain cflags that are invalid for CXX. afaict, pkg-config does not return any such CFLAGS, even if I build the package with said cflags
11:15:52 <Rubidium> ah yes... strndup is available when _GNU_SOURCE is set, so setting _GNU_SOURCE even when strndup is not available breaks OpenTTD compilation
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11:21:13 <Wizzleby> I have -Wno-pointer-sign in CFLAGS in my make.conf to catch when CXX is trying to compile C++ with CFLAGS, but it doesn't make it into the output of sdl-config
11:23:12 <peter1138> you're missing the point somewha t:)
11:23:41 <Wizzleby> peter1138: how, pray tell :)
11:24:15 <peter1138> if CXX shouldn't have CFLAGS passed to it, then pkg-config is not usable as it does not provide any cxxflags
11:24:31 <peter1138> (yes, we're being pedantic)
11:25:36 <Wizzleby> peter1138: yeah, but I can be pedantic too: CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS are largely compatible. We're concerned about avoiding the corner cases where user input cflags could break something. pkg-config isn't returning something that classifies only as a CFLAG or a CXXFLAG, it's passing flags which are valid in either: read, both.
11:27:43 <Wizzleby> s/it's passing/it's returning/g
11:31:01 <Wizzleby> at any rate, I'm testing Rubidum's suggestion of overriding CFLAGs at configure time
11:32:56 <Wizzleby> if that works all the better (so far it seems to). If using pkg-config output is/were a problem, it could then be fixed with a simple one or two line patch, rather than the 14 KiB mess that I was using
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11:37:08 <Wizzleby> peter1138: the important qualfier that I think you missed (or I failed to mention) was it is /user defined/ CFLAGS we want to avoid passing to CXX
11:38:56 <Wizzleby> Rubidium: thank you, overriding CFLAGS at configure works, that seems preferrable to me
11:39:22 <Wizzleby> (and doesn't require any changes on your part :) )
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13:29:53 <Belugas> hello sir dihedral you :)
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13:48:59 <peter1138> 1467 packages upgraded, 499 newly installed, 252 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
13:48:59 <peter1138> Need to get 2155MB of archives. After unpacking 1298MB will be used.
13:49:03 <peter1138> that's... quite a lot
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14:35:57 <theholyduck> aber, all running on the same box
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15:25:30 <Mazur> I get that there is not way to create keyboard shortcuts as a user in the GUI?
15:25:50 <planetmaker> nor via config file
15:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the shortcuts are fixed in the source code
15:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a patch for configurable hotkeys, though
15:28:33 <Mazur> It would be ever to nice.,
15:29:09 <Mazur> I'd use ^I to toggle land-information.
15:32:09 <planetmaker> chose whatever suits you instead of 'G'
15:32:50 <OwenS> Hey, who introduced DEF_CMD and broke my code? :p
15:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "if (strcmp(user,"owens")) { fail_compile() ; }
15:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> (of course, that makes entirely no sense :p)
15:34:22 <OwenS> For a start, that will break for everyone else :p
15:34:39 <OwenS> Rubidium, well, it told me merge failed :p
15:37:27 <Rubidium> OwenS: it should have asked whether to merge a revision that's going to fail to merge
15:38:13 <OwenS> Rubidium, git leaves you with an umgerged working copy. You can always revert its changes ;-)
15:39:26 <Mazur> Hunk #1 succeeded at 30 (offset 4 lines).
15:39:26 <Mazur> Hunk #2 succeeded at 329 (offset 22 lines).
15:39:57 <planetmaker> yes, it's a terribly old patch
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15:57:36 <Steffl> hi together, is anybody here which knows something of development and AIs?
15:59:44 <Yexo> but I leave in 15mins for a few hours
16:00:05 <Steffl> I have modified pathzilla AI
16:00:25 <Steffl> what should is do with it?
16:00:41 <Yexo> what do you want to do with it?
16:00:42 <Steffl> is it legal to give it to other people?
16:01:03 <PeterT> you mean to redistribute it?
16:01:04 <Steffl> zutty doesnt answer my pms
16:01:12 <Yexo> yes, it's distributed under the GPL, so as long as you give proper credit and write down what you modified, and distribute your version also under the GPL
16:01:16 <PeterT> what is it licensed under?
16:01:33 <Steffl> ok, I thougt it shouldnt be a problem
16:02:38 <Steffl> does anybody knows something about zutty? icq maybe?
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16:04:14 <Steffl> ok thanks. It need a little bit testing then I will give it to download. bye
16:07:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19628 /trunk/src/spriteloader/png.cpp: -Change: support the tRNS chunk to read transparency information for RGB PNGs (Szvengar)
16:13:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19629 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3757]: chat message caused glitch when rejoining a network game
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17:42:36 <Velos> wondering if anyone could reccomend a nice 4 lane t junction, ive made one myself but i cant help thinking there must be something better
17:45:01 <Velos> wont even load for me :P
17:45:25 <PeterT> Off to Spain in two days
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19630 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
17:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
17:45:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 23 changes by Phreeze
17:45:33 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: spanish - 8 changes by Terkhen
17:47:59 <Terkhen> I see... I haven't seen much of Madrid besides the bus station and the airport
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19:16:43 <theholyduck> Velos, too many sharp turns
19:16:57 <theholyduck> general missuse and absue of pbs
19:17:49 <theholyduck> and if you require a network with LL_RR lines, you might look into doubling up on bridges/tunnels
19:17:55 <theholyduck> to prevent signal gaps slowing down trains
19:18:37 <Ammler> let trains use your junction and you will see the issues yourself ;-)
19:20:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19631 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Feature: Graphs with negative values are no longer forced to have the zero axis in the middle (grid size calculation by Alberth).
19:38:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19632 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Cleanup: has_negative_values is no longer used.
19:42:15 * OwenS wonders how Gnome's volume control manages to punch a hole in a window (It erases a region of the topmost window on the non-focused monitor...)
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19:56:41 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19633 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r11759): Signed computations with unsigned integers.
19:57:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19634 /trunk/src/ (tree_cmd.cpp tree_gui.cpp tree_map.h): -Codechange: Use TREE_INVALID more consistently.
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20:07:32 * andythenorth decides this FIRS thing makes for a kind of fun game
20:09:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19635 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_tile.cpp: -Fix (r19634): Forgot AI.
20:26:58 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19636 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix: desync when taking over companies
20:27:20 <frosch123> though i am sure eddi can explain you better why lots use dativ instead of genitiv in lot of cases, resp. why noone uses "trotz".
20:28:12 <Mazur> We lost all that, beasically, except in a few old "standing expressions".
20:28:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19637 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Pass complete TransportType to CmdBuildTunnel.
20:29:51 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r19638 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Change: log the _date and _date_fract in the desync log for saved games
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20:36:17 <KloBass> one quick question is possible to use windows manager shortcuts when playing openttd (ex switching desktops) ? (using linux)
20:36:48 <frosch123> that is totally up to your window manager, isn't it?
20:37:15 <KloBass> when i have openttd fullscreened
20:37:55 <peter1138> no, sdl stops that from working, nothing we can do
20:38:10 <KloBass> ok so another question :)
20:38:34 <KloBass> when i dont have fullscreen
20:38:41 <KloBass> everyclick in openttd window
20:40:00 <KloBass> so i have to move my mouse from ttd window and when i come back again have openttd cursor
20:40:01 <Rubidium> what kind of fancy wm is that then?
20:40:09 <KloBass> after click it will disabear again
20:40:24 <KloBass> but it does also in gnome
20:40:26 <frosch123> wrt. the paste: i guess you downloaded some 32bpp pack for the extra zoom patch, which is invalid for stock ottd
20:40:45 <KloBass> can it cause this cursor disapearing?
20:42:50 <KloBass> so any idea what can cause this?
20:44:29 <frosch123> never had such problems on kde 3.5 nor xfce
20:46:55 <Rubidium> xfce + Debian works fine
20:47:59 <KloBass> ill try emerge world :)
20:50:33 <KloBass> hmm i guess it will be problem in sdl or iam missing something because also Wesnoth doest that same
20:50:57 <frosch123> libsdl 1.2.14-r2 on my side
20:50:57 <Rubidium> yes, the new 1.2.14 SDL has quite a number of issues
20:51:38 <KloBass> libsdl-1.2.14-r2 USE="X alsa audio joystick opengl video xv
20:53:22 <KloBass> frosch123: do you have any other *sdl installed (eg sdl-image ? )
20:53:30 <frosch123> well, i doubt "dga fbcon" has any influence on it :)
20:55:31 <frosch123> sdl-image, sdl-gfx,sdl-mixer, sdl-net, sdl-sound, sdl-ttf
20:58:10 <frosch123> though i have none of them in my world file. no idea what actually pulls them in :p
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21:01:10 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: want to elaborate frosch's comment about dativ vs. genitiv?
21:01:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ... just having hard drive trouble
21:03:12 <__ln__> ok, good luck :/ (i hope you have backups)
21:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: that's not the issue... i'm having trouble a) figuring out what's wrong, and b) cleaning / because messages was spammed with errors and is now full
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22:32:18 <PeterT> peter1138: Do you still run that good UKRS server?
22:57:04 <Belugas> now THAT is hilarious...
22:57:12 <Belugas> I'm waiting for PCCharge customer support
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22:57:35 <Belugas> the customer has transactions made THE WHOLE DAY under Demo mode
22:57:50 <Belugas> and those transactions are supposed to be real
22:58:31 <glx> customer's customers should be happy ;)
22:58:44 <Belugas> yeah... laughing out loud
22:59:46 <Belugas> i just can't understand how the clerks were not able to view that...
23:00:11 <Belugas> "DEMO-6" does not sound like a real auth # :S
23:00:17 <Rubidium> Belugas: it didn't shout "you're in demo mode" continuously
23:00:40 <Belugas> guess it's the problem :)
23:06:43 <OwenS> Belugas, credit card terminals?
23:07:41 <Belugas> well... not terminals...
23:08:03 <OwenS> Card present or not present transactions?
23:08:03 <Belugas> my system is integrated with the payment processing companny
23:08:56 <OwenS> Hmm... I think they may be unable to (without violating the Visa/MasterCard/Etc) terms of service authorize the cards for payment then...
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23:20:49 <Pulec> we've playin for 2 addictive days on 2048x256 map
23:21:29 <Pulec> after you get out of the debt and have some money, its like sandbox from it then
23:22:02 <Rubidium> unless you play competively with multiple players
23:22:15 <Pulec> i wonder whats the point of playing it then, i mean its awesome, i cant go away from it, build more busses, plains e.t.c. buut
23:22:38 <PeterT> Set high goals for yourself
23:22:49 <Pulec> yep i play with friend but on so big map...
23:22:59 <Pulec> i guses yes thats whats it about
23:23:21 <Pulec> but we fight each other in some towns and thats fun
23:23:26 <Belugas> OwenS, there are some stuff i can, believe me :)
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23:23:42 <Pulec> and improving networks, make bigger citties
23:23:56 <Pulec> but its serious time killer, 6h killed today like nothing
23:24:04 <Belugas> that is the fun part of PCI compliancy... when you screw, you really do screw up
23:25:37 <Rubidium> Pulec: the sun isn't shining yet, so... you haven't been really taken by it
23:26:31 <Pulec> yep like i will play whole night again...
23:27:06 <Rubidium> you didn't start around dinner and then you notice the sun is "still" shining outside and looking at your clock you see it's already the next day
23:27:06 <Pulec> just tried the max zoom, some graphics is really scary ugly...
23:27:27 <Pulec> i would hate that happen
23:30:50 <glx> <@Rubidium> Pulec: the sun isn't shining yet, so... you haven't been really taken by it <-- happened to me many times
23:31:40 <Pulec> its like 20-30 of game years at normal speed right?
23:47:22 <Pulec> i mean same building mechanism and everything
23:49:35 <Rubidium> "exactly same view" and "in 3d" are mutually exclusive
23:50:10 <Pulec> i guess it would be hard to make it look like before
23:50:27 <Pulec> but i will set it my goal! hehe
23:52:49 <__ln__> would it work on a real 3D screen?
23:56:35 <Pulec> do you mean flat 3d screen?
23:56:49 <Pulec> but i guess you mean the big table 3d
23:56:53 <__ln__> glasses or without glasses, depending on technology
23:56:55 <Pulec> that would be awesome then
23:57:13 <Pulec> no i mean like you have this mini railroads paradise
23:57:23 <Pulec> the collector people, you know
23:57:53 <Pulec> touch there and build that
23:58:04 <Pulec> lol thats utopia and scary one...
23:59:48 <glx> hehe someone solved a problem :)
continue to next day ⏵
