IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-03-25
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00:00:14 <Yexo> <Ammler> Yexo: I needed Action9 to skip openttd only features in opengfx for ttdpatch <- didn't you jus ttell me there are cases where action9 works but action7 not?
00:01:13 <Yexo> those openttd only features, where that action5s?
00:01:14 <Ammler> so in openttd, there isn't any difference?
00:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there are three stages of understanding
00:01:22 <Eddi|zuHause> understanding that something works
00:01:28 <Eddi|zuHause> understanding how something works
00:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> understanding why something works
00:02:40 <Ammler> airport, autorail, flags, gui...
00:03:50 <Yexo> did you test with action7 at all?
00:04:42 <Ammler> yes, I did, frosch said I should use action9
00:07:15 <Yexo> DaleStan: is it true that to skip openttd-specific action5s you need an action 9, not action7? If so, a note should be added to the Action7 wiki page
00:07:37 <Starn> i've encountered an issue with MS Visual C++.... and openttd source...
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00:09:38 <Starn> i'm following step by step on the wiki and i am to "righ-click on openttd (preject) -> properties -> C/C++ -> general -> additional include directories." and i right clicky and it gives me this.
00:10:00 <Starn> the operation could not be completed. unspecified error.
00:10:19 <Starn> i've been following every little detial on this wiki to the very lettering.
00:11:02 <Yexo> it gives you that error when you right-click on the project name?
00:11:17 <Starn> well and click on properties.
00:11:30 <Yexo> so the property window is never opened?
00:12:17 <Yexo> that shound like a bug in MSVC, that has nothing to do with openttd
00:12:21 <Starn> exactly instead an error box.
00:13:03 <Starn> would it matter that i am on win 7 pro 64bit. using MSVC 2008 64bit..
00:13:21 <Yexo> could be, it could also be something else, I have no idea
00:13:29 <Yexo> but this is a problem in MVSC, not in openttd
00:14:32 <Starn> was kinda hoping some one had this issue or knew what caused it..
00:15:00 <Starn> guess i go to plan b.. and use eclipes.. i like it for python.. never used for C++...
00:32:39 <Starn> lets hope in C++ eclipse likes me
00:34:20 <fjb> I have given up. It never does what I intend to do, really unintuitive to use and complicated to configure, at least for my projects.
00:37:40 <Starn> well i've only used it for python it may end up being to hard for me as well for C++.
00:39:45 <Starn> i have a feeling i am going to run into a crap load of issues with this as well due to fact i am win 7 pro 64bit
00:41:53 <glx> I have no problems on win7 64 with msvc express 2008
00:42:04 <fjb> I would really have some trouble if I would be "win 7 pro 64bit".
00:42:44 <glx> "I'm PC and windows 7 is my idea" ;)
00:43:28 <Rubidium> "hi, I'm a x86 and my processor is inherently racy"
00:46:31 <OwenS> Rubidium: Refering to mov ss, x; mov esp, y;?
00:47:11 <Rubidium> OwenS: no, branch prediction + pipelines etc causing races
00:47:52 <OwenS> Rubidium: Don't they in any modern processor?
00:48:47 <glx> the problem is probably due to CISC
00:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: the question is not whether they do, but whether it's specified that they do
00:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> OwenS: x86 being backwards compatible and all probably means they can't do that...
00:51:50 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: True. Unlike many processors which say things like "Cache coherency is only guaranteed when induced by a volatile load"
00:52:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: ask Owen?
00:53:25 <OwenS> You have a request for logs (Assuming its you) :p
00:53:28 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: and attach the logs they asked for! :)
00:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, need to create them first...
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02:27:57 <Starn> hmm whats the diferents in openttd_vs80 amd openttd_vs90? for i can right click and go to properties and change stuff in there with 80 but not 90.. under 90 i get an unkown error.
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07:14:17 <peter1138> ^ good job we don't let NewGRFs check :p
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07:26:13 <ccfreak2k> In C, I can put an enumerated variable in a struct right?
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08:27:29 * andythenorth admires the new alphabetical mini map industry list :)
08:28:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: morning. Seen your pm?
08:31:07 <Rubidium> what about the cargo payment graph?
08:31:28 <andythenorth> not alphabetical :o
08:31:41 <Rubidium> shouldn't that be alphabetically sorted too?
08:32:41 <andythenorth> also the industry list needs two cargo filters similar to depot menu: 'accepts' 'produces'
08:33:50 <Terkhen> I was thinking about sorting cargos at the filter by cargo dropdown in the build vehicle window too
08:34:11 <andythenorth> would make sense
08:34:19 <Terkhen> the cargo payment graph would look nice indeed
08:34:49 <Terkhen> but I think that passengers and mails are expected to appear first
08:36:30 <andythenorth> you could bounce those to the top
08:36:44 <andythenorth> is it some kind of list?
08:37:27 <andythenorth> list sort, list slice 'PAX', list insert 'PAX' at position 0?
08:37:39 <Terkhen> probably a list sorted by cargo ID
08:37:54 <Terkhen> can I expect them to always have the same cargo ID?
08:38:16 <Rubidium> shouldn't that happen in the smallmap too? Actually, I'd say all cargo lists should be sorted the same way
08:38:55 <andythenorth> Terkhen: cargo IDs aren't reliable between newgrfs, (or even within newgrfs - sometimes)
08:39:05 <andythenorth> but they should be consistent in any given game?
08:39:23 <Yexo> untill the newgrfs are reloaded
08:39:54 * andythenorth reloads newgrf with the console :D
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08:40:14 <Terkhen> I had to sort the industry list at the smallmap again if language changes too
08:41:58 <Terkhen> I agree, a single cargo list for all of these problems makes sense
08:43:27 <Terkhen> and the sorted industry list could be used at the found new industry window too
08:44:18 <ccfreak2k> I need a word that rhymes with struct.
08:44:49 <andythenorth> ccfreak2k: I can think of one
08:45:17 <ccfreak2k> Bonus if it's a C or C++ keyword.
08:46:55 <andythenorth> duct, booked, looked, sucked?
08:47:15 <andythenorth> duct doesn't rhyme so well
08:47:31 <andythenorth> Terkhen: sorting fund industry window == win :)
08:48:47 <Terkhen> I'll look into a general solution then... once I fix the pc where I usually code
09:22:11 * andythenorth feels the love for a faster make file
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09:24:12 <andythenorth> HEQS is seriously fast
09:25:10 <andythenorth> FIRS not as fast, but still improved. Lot more templating in FIRS :)
09:25:38 <planetmaker> Well. Size scales somewhat with grf size :-)
09:29:16 <andythenorth> that's a nice feature, RVs with capacity 0 are not shown in vehicle info window's list of 'trailers'
09:29:22 <andythenorth> looks better than the alternative
09:30:28 <peter1138> planetmaker, i was more amused by his copyright 'argument'
09:31:42 <andythenorth> I gave up on trying to understand that.
09:31:45 <andythenorth> Nice sets he makes though :P
09:32:23 * andythenorth wonders about templating some HEQS code
09:32:48 * Terkhen does not understand it either
09:35:29 <Rubidium> it's easy... he just doesn't want to say that he hates OpenTTD's developers
09:42:59 <planetmaker> I cannot say I followed the copyright argument.
09:43:56 <Ammler> hehe, he thinks, it is legal to make derivates of ttd base sprites as long as someone has the original.
09:44:06 <Yexo> it's something like this: "we distribute copyrighted graphics, normally this isn't allowed but since all users need the original ttd graphcis for some reason this is ok"
09:44:29 <Yexo> since opengfx not all users need to have the original ttd graphics so he's just distribution copyrighted graphics without permission
09:44:53 <Yexo> Ammler: making the derivates is legal, distributing them not
09:45:37 <peter1138> patch: **** malformed patch at line 291: @@ -337,15 +316,14 @@
09:45:37 <peter1138> patch: **** malformed patch at line 291: @@ -337,15 +316,14 @@
09:46:21 <Ammler> discussing legal things in non legal topics sucks, so I didn't answer him...
09:47:24 <Ammler> theoretically, you could check for the baseset GRFID to determine, which is loaded...
09:47:46 <OwenS> Ammler: Change OpenGFX' to be the same as original_windows? :-P
09:48:19 <Yexo> or modify openttd so the baseset grfids are not detectable
09:49:11 <Ammler> OwenS: he doesn't do that, he just made theoretic scenarios
09:49:38 <OwenS> Ammler: Yeah, but if he did, then that would be a solution :p
09:49:51 <OwenS> ..then he would probably go "if openttd disallow" though...
09:50:21 <Yexo> with the testing versions that'll only work on ttdpatch
09:52:26 <OwenS> Someone should add hidden settings to mask as TTDPatch for certain GRFIDs...
09:52:52 <Noldo> you can make a patch for personal use
09:53:11 <OwenS> Noldo: I'm aware of that, but I would need to learn the GRF code first ;-)
09:54:02 <planetmaker> <OwenS> Someone should add hidden settings to mask as TTDPatch for certain GRFIDs...<-- lol :-)
09:56:02 <Ammler> the easiest might be to add a "sprite skipper" to the openttd developer mode.
10:02:09 <Rubidium> why do you all care? If he doesn't want it to be used, let him waste time for the noone that use his stuff
10:03:05 <Yexo> because he does make nice newgfs, and it would be a shame if they were unusable
10:03:45 <planetmaker> Yexo, they're anyway lost to those who come after him. No re-use of any code permitted
10:05:41 <planetmaker> OwenS, I'm quite sure that the CanSet graphics are original to the same degree as OpenGFX is original
10:06:53 <andythenorth> FWIW CanSet graphics are almost entirely by Dan MacK
10:07:28 <Rubidium> andythenorth: he isn't the problem; oztransltd is
10:07:46 <andythenorth> I know - just wanted to be clear. Dan MacK has a 'use it freely' provision on his work. It's not a legal license, but he's publicly stated the intent enough times in enough places that it should be clear
10:07:52 <planetmaker> yep... Rail sprites in OpenGFX are currently on the way to be DanMacK-ified ;-)
10:08:15 <Rubidium> oh, so you don't need to load the canrail set anymore? :)
10:08:24 <planetmaker> hehe :-) Might be.
10:08:42 <planetmaker> Also he stated that he's going to provide lots of graphics for an OpenGFX+ newgrf
10:08:59 <Ammler> this guy is a maschine
10:09:02 * andythenorth wonders if it's time for a US Renewal Set renewal
10:09:13 <OwenS> planetmaker: I'm refering to the reference of the baseset graphicsi ncorporated
10:09:26 <planetmaker> OwenS, yes, I am, too ;-)
10:09:53 <OwenS> Or in other words, to this: "As it is no longer necessary to own TTD 'original' base graphic files to play an OpenTTD game (e.g. with OpenGfx); any GRF (not just ours) that contains TTD 'original' graphics is in breach of copyright law, if used by players that do not have in their possession the Transport Tycoon Deluxe game."
10:10:04 <planetmaker> There's little point to copy them verbatim. And derivation... depends what is genuine art and what is a derivative.
10:10:21 * andythenorth thinks this a reprise of what has gone before
10:10:26 <andythenorth> lets write some code!
10:10:39 <OwenS> I think if your sprites contain the original ground tiles, it's pretty unambiguously derivative
10:10:48 <andythenorth> at some point OzTrans will release something. It will be good. It may or not work in OTTD.
10:11:09 <andythenorth> Meanwhile, he gets a lot of conversational bandwidth around here :|
10:12:29 <Ammler> well, most here do make fun about...
10:12:31 <planetmaker> which is the whole point. Of his statements wrt support / copyright / ...
10:12:40 <Ammler> so not really something to fear...
10:12:42 * andythenorth writes some code
10:14:47 <andythenorth> one simple template used twice, or one complex action 2 and no template :|
10:25:42 <andythenorth> I've never seen this renum error before
10:28:20 <Yexo> it expects a word-value at the place where you have "\b4 80"
10:28:30 <Yexo> while your code is correct, \b is used to escape a single byte
10:28:48 <Yexo> so renum tells you it found a 1-byte long escape sequence but expected a word-value
10:34:09 <peter1138> cool, HS2 will go past here
10:34:21 <peter1138> i'll be able to watch the 400km/h trains ;p
10:34:55 <Rubidium> didn't the Chinese want to build something?
10:35:14 <OwenS> Which I'd prefer not, as a Transrapid line would be cooler...
10:35:47 <peter1138> and more likely to flop
10:36:11 <OwenS> Transrapid track isnt much more expensive than high speed rail, and doesnt need as much land...
10:36:56 <OwenS> Also, HS2 does nothing useful for the majority of the UK which actually needs new rail connections, rather than the South which already has lots...
10:37:23 <peter1138> yup, it'll shave off 25 minutes of an already existant route
10:38:23 <OwenS> I wouldnt object to it if there werent major areas off the rail network which should be on it...
10:39:05 * andythenorth wonders how RoadTypes are coming along
10:39:12 <andythenorth> ever more uses for them :o
10:39:42 <peter1138> i haven't started any coding
10:40:11 <andythenorth> coding's the easy bit :) Thinking is the hard bit
10:40:12 <Rubidium> hmm, the Japanes rail route planner thingy is a bit broken... 91 minutes from Tokyo to Hakata (1200 km) when not taking the Shinkansen(s)
10:41:04 <Rubidium> 303 minutes with the fastest Shinkansen
10:41:28 <OwenS> Is that a maglev route/ :P
10:41:29 <peter1138> road and tram bits are fairly hard coded
10:41:34 <peter1138> will be interesting to separate it all
10:41:46 <Rubidium> OwenS: nah, it's just 1 day + 91 minutes
10:41:47 <andythenorth> sprites by Mr. Dan MacK ^
10:42:20 <peter1138> andythenorth, stop teasing us :s
10:42:31 <OwenS> God damnit, why does my phone have an oddball MicroUSB cable?!
10:42:35 <Rubidium> even the plane Tokyo-Fukuoka/Hakata takes 115 minutes
10:43:19 <andythenorth> peter1138: how about 1 tram commit for 1 roadtype commit :P
10:45:04 <peter1138> doesn't work like that :)
10:47:02 <__ln__> what's up with the tram stop signs?
10:49:00 <__ln__> not related to what you are doing now
10:49:33 <andythenorth> they look fine to me
10:49:39 <andythenorth> except we need a little tram icon
10:49:59 * andythenorth wonders if trams should be an entirely new type of route
10:50:03 <andythenorth> in an ideal world...
10:50:25 <andythenorth> putting them under the road menu is confusing no?
10:51:59 <SpComb> how do trams differ from road vehicles
10:52:13 <Ammler> andythenorth: isn't the cap compared to trucks a bit low?
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10:52:31 <andythenorth> Ammler: this is the 'small' tram
10:52:46 <andythenorth> compared to other road vehicles at that point, these are going to rock :)
10:53:07 <andythenorth> bigger ones come in 1920
10:53:32 <andythenorth> anything bigger, use a proper train ;)
10:53:53 <andythenorth> SpComb: gameplay, trams == rvs
10:53:59 <andythenorth> but in the mind of the player looking at a menu?
10:54:57 <Ammler> he, you need smoke ;-)
10:55:23 <peter1138> hmm, was there enough map space for 16 road types?
10:56:04 <andythenorth> if not...constraints are good ;)
10:56:23 * andythenorth is slightly scared by the discussions around railtypes
10:56:30 <Rubidium> peter1138: there should be :)
10:56:37 <Rubidium> for road tiles m4 is free
10:56:50 <peter1138> also bridges and tunnels and crossings, heh
10:57:14 <Yexo> all of these have m4 free
10:57:54 <Yexo> SpComb: that'd limit it to one roadtype per tile
10:58:23 * andythenorth considers a rail type that only works on alternative days of months containing the character 'r'
10:59:05 <andythenorth> 16 will be more than ample for the OCD freaks to ruin gameplay with fine-grained rules :)
10:59:37 <peter1138> nutracks goes a bit over the top, heh
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10:59:57 <andythenorth> it was the discussion on axle loadings and voltages that started to really scare me
11:00:11 * andythenorth sometimes forgets to electrify one tile, which can be sad
11:00:58 *** |Terkhen| is now known as Terkhen
11:01:31 <andythenorth> road, freeway, tramway, electrified tramway, trolley bus route, trail / dirt road
11:01:32 <__ln__> Terkhen: why doesn't TVE Internacional have EPG data?
11:01:43 <andythenorth> 6 RoadTypes. Other suggestions?
11:03:39 <andythenorth> Cable Car (SF style), elevated monorail (Zephyris), aerial tram (ropeway), funicular
11:03:47 <andythenorth> guided bus route
11:03:47 <Terkhen> __ln__: I have no idea
11:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> two tile road with embedded tram in the middle!
11:03:59 * andythenorth has an OCD side too :o
11:04:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: needs some changes to pathfinder?
11:04:18 * andythenorth was thinking about freeways
11:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> not necessarily the pathfinder, but the road movement patterns
11:04:57 <andythenorth> if vehicles can pathfind on either side of the road (depending on LHD/RHD game setting), can they be tricked into pathfinding on both sides of a one way road?
11:05:16 <andythenorth> so they see two routes on one tile
11:05:21 <andythenorth> overtaking I don't care about right now
11:05:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ... but i was going to say something completely different, but forgot...
11:06:03 <Yexo> andythenorth: for the pathfinding it doesn't matter what the value of the LHD/RHD setting is
11:06:16 <Yexo> it just takes into account all vehicles driving in the same direction
11:09:52 <Terkhen> __ln__: IIRC TVE has EPG, but I didn't know it has an international channel
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11:14:40 <Eddi|zuHause> strangely, it's missing python
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11:35:58 * andythenorth ponders tram locomotives with stats improving over time
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11:43:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not sure 1/8 vehicles are going to work
11:43:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: why not?
11:43:41 <andythenorth> they'll be about 3px long in most views :)
11:43:59 <andythenorth> I've pm'ed you Dan's test sprite
11:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> well, visually they would be 3/8 long, only 2 out of 3 would be invisible
11:44:39 <andythenorth> so 15 vehicles wouldn't draw 15 sprites?
11:44:58 <andythenorth> and this isn't weird because....? :)
11:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have (invisible vehicle)-(visible vehicle that is oversized)-(invisible vehicle) as one wagon
11:46:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and that stretches to 3 visible vehicles of correct size for the long version
11:46:46 <andythenorth> but the count of visible wagons != count of wagons for vehicle
11:46:59 <andythenorth> which some players will figure out and find strange
11:47:22 <Eddi|zuHause> only the visible wagons have capacity. nobody will find out :)
11:48:33 <andythenorth> resp. making vehicles invisible for <15 wagons, I have that working now
11:48:45 <andythenorth> ah, I think I see what you mean
11:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> so the short version has: ((engine)+(3x invisible))-((wagon)+(2x invisible))-((wagon)+(2x invisible))-((wagon)+(2x invisible))-((wagon)+(2x invisible))
11:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> makes 1 engine + 4 visible wagons
11:49:26 <andythenorth> I don't think they need to be interleaved like that though
11:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> anything else might get weird overlapping or curve effects
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11:50:49 <andythenorth> I think visible vehicles will be 2/8 long
11:51:10 <andythenorth> if refitted to invisible I'll adjust to 1/8
11:51:36 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you need to make sure that the total length is 1 tile
11:51:48 <andythenorth> I don't think I can for the case where 15 wagons are visible
11:51:49 <Eddi|zuHause> which can only be if all vehicles are 1/8
11:52:08 <Eddi|zuHause> no, 15 visible wagons makes 3 tiles then
11:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> when all vehicles are stretched out to 3/8
11:52:35 <andythenorth> so the 4 wagon case will fit nicely into 1 tile
11:52:53 <andythenorth> 4*1/8 + loco 2/8 (for smallest)
11:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> 4 wagons = 1 tile, 9 wagons = 2 tiles, 15 wagons = 3 tiles
11:53:49 <andythenorth> oops, bad maths above
11:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to mind that invisible vehicles still take space
11:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so the shortest version cannot be shorter than 16*1/8
11:55:08 <andythenorth> so wagon length != drawn length
11:55:30 <Eddi|zuHause> drawn length stays constant for all refit versions
11:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> wagon length contracts or expands as necessary
11:56:24 * andythenorth goes away to rethink nfo template
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12:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have here a scheme for vehicle lengths/visible vehicles: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt
12:12:35 * andythenorth needs a wider screen
12:12:44 <andythenorth> or a smaller browser font size
12:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a 4/8th engine and 3/8th wagons
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12:15:24 * andythenorth munches through some cpp
12:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 tile (16/8), 2 tiles-1/8 (31/8), 3 tiles+1/8 (49/8)
12:15:53 <jpm> Does station rating affect how much of produced cargo is delivered to station from industry or town?
12:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> jpm: industry production gets reduced by the station rating
12:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so if station rating is 60%, you get 60% of the industry's production
12:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> jpm: plus, if multiple stations are nearby, only the two stations with the highest rating get cargo at all
12:18:39 <jpm> What happens if there is more than one station?
12:23:11 <jpm> I was thinking to create system so that in multiplayer game one could detemine discount % for station to attarct more cargo...
12:27:53 <jpm> The boost(Advertising) will gradually fall down to the calculated rating. How long it takes to fall back to calculated rating?
12:30:04 * andythenorth wonders what happens if a vehicle is shortened to 8/8
12:30:06 <Rubidium> that depends on what the calculated rating is
12:30:42 <Rubidium> and even then... its behaviour is described in the game mechanics wiki page
12:32:08 <jpm> Page just says: The boost(Advertising) will gradually fall down to the calculated rating.
12:32:20 <Rubidium> jpm: and the next sentence?
12:35:24 * andythenorth shortening a vehicle to 8/8 doesn't seem to blow up the game
12:41:29 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: got one working to that schema you provided
12:44:47 <Noldo> peter1138 is the Euler of openttd
12:44:47 <Rubidium> peter1138: come on... publish your initial roadtypes hg branch with almost 15000 revisions. That'll keep andythenorth busy for a while
12:46:29 <Rubidium> it's kinda sad that after working on it for more than 40 years there's still nothing
12:57:26 <andythenorth> bit mask help time
12:58:27 <andythenorth> my action is currently set up for a byte
12:58:41 <andythenorth> I'd change it to a dword and mask 00FF0000
12:58:49 <andythenorth> but you guys seem to like bit shifts...
12:59:13 <planetmaker> subsequently I'd bit shift it by two bytes, 16 bit
13:00:05 <andythenorth> need to move that from checking cargos to checking refit cycle
13:01:07 <planetmaker> I guess it depends what you want to check for. For each of the single bits?
13:08:17 <andythenorth> well that seems to work
13:09:33 <andythenorth> now just for graphics....
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13:30:58 <Belugas> hello andythenorth :)
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14:30:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: updated with a version for 4/8 wagons: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt
14:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> (3/7/11/15 wagons)
14:33:17 <andythenorth> I'm experimenting with which wagon lengths look best :)
14:34:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking the 3/8 version for the early one, and the 4/8 for the later one
14:40:20 <andythenorth> might be 2/8 and 3/8
14:40:26 <andythenorth> I'll see how it looks
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14:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it shouldn't be too small
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15:05:48 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: think 4/8 is going to be better for later wagons
15:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm thinking 3/6/9/12/15 wagons work better with 4/8
15:07:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's 5 refit options
15:11:21 <Eddi|zuHause> nah... 3/7/11/15 will be fine, just slightly more difficult ranges...
15:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> that's 1,2,3,4 tiles
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15:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> could do 3/9/15 though
15:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 tile, 2.5 tiles, 4 tiles
15:17:24 <andythenorth> 3, 9, 15 would be my preference
15:18:28 <Eddi|zuHause> added that to the scheme
15:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but 3/7/11/15 matches the lengths better (in terms of autoreplace)
15:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> if you then manage that the early 15 wagons version replaces to the later 11 wagons version, it keeps the length of 3 tiles
15:23:25 <andythenorth> ^ three car, engine type number 2 (mid sized), 4/8 engine, 4/8 cars
15:24:58 <Belugas> english question : i've got a device with signature capture. so... "as soon as the signature has been <??drawed??><??drew??><???> on the device"
15:25:50 <Belugas> a cooky for Eddi|zuHause, and an honorific mention to planetmaker :)
15:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: possibly "written"
15:27:51 <Belugas> yeah.. indeed... even better
15:28:06 * Belugas thinks as a programmer, and not as a end user...
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15:40:11 <andythenorth> pikka's train offsets do not translate seamlessly to trams :D
15:41:01 <andythenorth> ctrl-b is not my friend in this case
15:41:04 <Eddi|zuHause> if you only had an offset editor within the game :)
15:41:26 * andythenorth builds just one wagon
15:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think you're wasting at least 1 pixel of wagon length in that above picture :)
15:46:05 <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: You have another WINE Bugzilla request
15:46:42 <OwenS> (And why is Konqeror still restoring that window? :S)
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16:04:16 * andythenorth has to figure out offsets if we're using crazy vehicle lengths
16:07:44 * andythenorth thinks centering in the bounding box might be wisest
16:17:01 * andythenorth can't even begin to describe how dull tweaking offsets is
16:24:33 <planetmaker> ^^ No need. I know it.
16:24:48 <planetmaker> One of the reasons I put off that in OpenGFX for three months...
16:25:34 <andythenorth> did I mention an offset tool?
16:26:07 <Eddi|zuHause> TTDP alledgedly has one
16:26:46 <andythenorth> it also allegedly doesn't have a mac build :|
16:26:55 <andythenorth> nor will it load my sets :)
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16:31:51 <andythenorth> I know it's a bogus thread....but anyway
16:32:26 <andythenorth> given that about 1/4 of the requests are about things that can be done in newgrf (maybe 1/2 if we discount the insane ideas)....
16:32:52 <andythenorth> how about 'better ways for players to use newgrfs'
16:33:05 <andythenorth> Bananas is an order of magnitude improvement on the previous situation
16:34:02 <andythenorth> what else could be better?
16:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is already in 1.0 :)
16:34:44 <OwenS> I like the person suggesting changing the speed at which time moves to match the speed at which vehicles do XD
16:34:56 <OwenS> Perhaps he would also like trucks that aren't bigger than houses?
16:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> wagons that aren't wider than long :)
16:36:01 <andythenorth> yeah, I'm not taking him up on his offer to write the FIRS manual :)
16:44:51 <Seki> Anyone have advice about "Read past end of pseudo sprite"?
16:45:11 <Seki> Does not occur in .7.5, but rc-3 throws that error on loading =\
16:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Seki: the grf is wrong
16:45:27 <Seki> Wrong how? (I'm writing the grf)
16:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Seki: error checking has improved since 0.7
16:47:36 <Seki> Thanks, just found the .pl version, but that's much easier
16:48:13 <planetmaker> Seki, uhm... and MUCH older and reliable
16:48:50 <planetmaker> nforenum does more than renumbering. It does a sanity check in many regards
16:49:59 <planetmaker> And the latter is actually the important thing
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17:13:46 <Seki> All right, I think I have it narrowed down to one error I can't fix.
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17:17:42 <Seki> !!Fatal Error (64): Expected more data for prop 1A. (1 bytes at 8.)
17:19:00 <philippG> how can i make AI harder to beat ?
17:19:30 <planetmaker> philippG, write an AI which is harder to beat :-)
17:19:35 <Seki> Any advice? From reading the SANITY log, it seems to expect more data, but from reading the TTDPatch action list, I should have the correct size data (Indeed, in .7.5 it works fine)
17:19:37 <planetmaker> or modify one of the existing.
17:19:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Seki: why can't you fix that?
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17:20:18 <planetmaker> philippG, yes, that's the only answer there is. Except you maybe have not tried all AI so far.
17:20:23 <philippG> well haven t tested all AI scripts so far
17:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Seki: what's property 1A?
17:20:37 <philippG> which one is the best in ur eyes
17:21:14 <planetmaker> NoCab, AdmiralAI and CluelessPlus perform very well, but that's my experience and my insufficient memory from beginning of this year.
17:21:21 <planetmaker> Also Rondje, the parasit ;-)
17:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Seki: can you put the line on paste.openttd.org?
17:21:42 <philippG> well admiral was to easy ^^
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17:22:10 <Yexo> if that's too easy to, try to beat rondje with only road vehicles
17:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> philippG: try easier landscape (flatter, less water)
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17:27:29 <Yexo> Seki: the 09 is for "define 9 properties" but then only 1 property follows
17:27:40 <Yexo> last thing on the line is "01D" which is not valid
17:27:49 <Seki> My apologies, that was just my attempts to fix it
17:27:58 <Seki> I have since updated the paste file.
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17:28:09 <Seki> The 09 is actually number of IDs, not properties, no?
17:29:12 <Yexo> ah, that is also the problem
17:29:19 <Yexo> you need to set the value for all ids
17:29:29 <Yexo> so you have to repeat the 1D 9 times
17:29:50 <Seki> That answers one of my other questions too :D
17:30:36 <Seki> That'd be it. Thank you! I didn't know you had to repeat the var for each one
17:31:06 <Seki> Eddi, Yexo: Thank you! =)
17:31:23 <planetmaker> checks just became stricter :-)
17:33:16 * andythenorth is very happy with reload_newgrfs :D
17:33:27 <andythenorth> I should probably send hugs, but it might be weird
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17:45:08 <OwenS> Hmm... Is there a way to reset a string back to its original colour?
17:46:12 <OwenS> I'd like to have the "unspecified signal" in "If unspecified signal is green" in red, but the string itself could be either white or black
17:47:07 <Rubidium> IIRC NewGRF strings can do it, so it might not be very hard to implement for OpenTTD strings
17:47:45 <OwenS> Hmm... For now, i'll just add a STR_WHITE/STR_BLACK and paste them afterwards
17:49:15 <Yexo> I can't find any way newgrfs can do it
17:50:35 <Rubidium> ah, found it: SCC_PREVIOUS_COLOUR (something only used internally)
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17:55:49 <Eddi|zuHause> looks nice. the red might be too aggressive, though. and i think the engine needs more work...
17:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> engine is CC1 and wagons CC2?
17:56:53 <andythenorth> engine is CC1 + 2, wagons are CC2
17:57:55 <andythenorth> pick your own colours :)
17:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but the read really bites...
17:59:06 <Seki> Question for BaNaNaS: Do you upload a .tar, a .tar.gz, a .zip, or a .grf? :D
17:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm still in favour of the 3/7/11/15 variant
18:00:29 <planetmaker> Seki, whatever you want from .tar, .tar.gz or .zip
18:00:37 <planetmaker> actually .grf might work, too
18:00:40 <andythenorth> these are same wagon sprites, but spaced closer
18:00:56 <planetmaker> But I prefer to supply a readme and a license
18:01:17 <planetmaker> and a changelog :-)
18:01:52 <Seki> Agreed, but I put the changelog in the readme ;)
18:02:23 <planetmaker> :-) Then one of the archive format is best.
18:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so make the sprites longer? :)
18:05:22 <andythenorth> I think these will work for the smallest engine and wagons
18:05:28 <andythenorth> any smaller is really *very* small
18:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i think for the early version the wagons should be lower
18:06:45 <andythenorth> these are 3/8 for wagons and 4/8 for engine
18:07:03 <andythenorth> so 4 wagons should work with this one
18:07:19 <andythenorth> let me get the sizes worked out and I'll do a bit of redrawing
18:07:58 <andythenorth> ok so 4 wagons workds
18:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> this'll turn out great at the rate it's going now :)
18:15:08 <andythenorth> transparent mode
18:27:01 <andythenorth> reworked the wagons
18:27:08 <andythenorth> these look about 5t to me
18:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that looks great
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18:30:23 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause I'll do up some stats and send you a test grf
18:33:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i guess the size comparison is fairly realistic :)
18:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> these dump trucks are really huge!
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18:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19518 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt japanese.txt spanish.txt):
18:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
18:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: japanese - 35 changes by nex259
18:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:46:14 <OwenS> Hmm... assert(_globset.IsEmpty() || owner == _last_owner), in AddTrackToSignalBuffer, is causing my dependency walker to instigate a crash...
18:47:15 <OwenS> Anyway, will fix after eating food :p
18:47:17 <Rubidium> OwenS: ./configure --disable-assert will magically solve that
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19:00:29 <Hirundo> OwenS: Iterating over all signals and updating them at once will cause problems, yes
19:00:30 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: check your forum pms...
19:01:26 <andythenorth> I need a name for this tram....
19:01:27 <andythenorth> Most HEQS vehicles are named after mountains.
19:03:58 <OwenS> Hirundo: Not all; I'm adding the signals that are in my dependency map
19:04:15 <Hirundo> Cross-company dependencies?
19:04:47 <OwenS> Hirundo: No. It's the _globset.IsEmpty
19:05:37 <Hirundo> It should eat a non-empty globset, if your owner does not change
19:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be prepared for cros-company dependency in context of IS
19:06:07 <OwenS> Hirundo: Well, the || there is the problem..
19:06:44 <OwenS> How can there be a cross-company dependency with only one company? :S
19:07:23 <Hirundo> How do you determine the owner parameter of AddTrackToSignalBuffer?
19:07:50 <OwenS> AddTrackToSignalBuffer(i->tile, i->track, GetTileOwner(i->tile));
19:08:48 <OwenS> ...I presume this means having a track on a tile does not make you its owner? Hmm
19:08:52 <Hirundo> Does the dep check operate only on existing signals, or also when signals get removed?
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19:09:46 <OwenS> Dependencies get updated when the signal they depend on chaneges state (Called from UpdateSignalsArroundSegment)
19:11:25 <Starn> What is the diferents in openttd_vs80 and openttd_vs90? for i am unable to go to properties with vs90 but i can do so wih 80... i was trying to follow MSVC 2008 wiki but i am stuck due to an unkown error everytime i right click and click properties with vs90
19:11:44 <OwenS> Starn: vs80 is MSVC2005, vs80 is MSVC2008
19:12:18 <andythenorth> electric sparks effect for trams?
19:12:40 <Hirundo> hmm.. Dump a ton of debug info to the console with DEBUG(..) and analyse, I'd say
19:13:10 <Starn> than why would 2008 version be having issues with my copy of 2008? is it due to fact i am on windows 7 pro 64bit? though that does not make since.. 2005 version works just fine in my MSVC 2008
19:14:04 <Ammler> OwenS: why you need to care about owner at all?
19:14:15 <OwenS> Ammler: Because OpenTTD does
19:14:56 <OwenS> I was gonna allow you to look at other companies signals to see what ingenious things people came up with, but that would break things :p
19:15:23 <andythenorth> somehow visual effects are still missing for RVs :o
19:15:31 <Rubidium> Starn: because installing MSVC2008 after MSCV2010 beta might not be supported?
19:15:36 <andythenorth> How did this terrible thing happen? :P
19:15:42 <OwenS> Ammler: The signal engine checks all signals its updating are from the same company. Hirundo probably knows better why
19:15:47 <Rubidium> Starn: and MSVC2005 is different enough to be not in the way of MSVC2010?
19:15:59 <Starn> even after you remove 2010 and 2010 was on external hd?
19:16:21 <Rubidium> removed 2010 before or after installing 2008?
19:16:40 <Rubidium> because removing 2010 if 2008 is installed breaks 2008 (at least in my test)
19:16:56 <Starn> i removed 2010 before installing 2008
19:16:58 <Hirundo> OwenS: Most probably because the signal code can be called for non-existing (just-removed) signals. In that case, it is necessary to store the owner separately
19:17:09 <Rubidium> so it could very well happen in the other case too; don't know as I haven't tested it
19:17:15 <OwenS> Hirundo: (gdb) print _last_owner $1 = INVALID_OWNER <-- ?!
19:17:49 <Hirundo> Let me check something..
19:19:43 <Rubidium> Starn: to be fair, I rather (re)install Windows and MSVC than uninstall MSVC and install another version
19:20:08 <Starn> i cant reinstall windows due to the fact it is student copy.
19:20:26 <Rubidium> but then, reinstalling Windows is just extracting the clean VirtualBox image
19:20:32 <Hirundo> OwenS: The _tbuset may be more appropriate than the _globset in this case
19:20:56 <OwenS> Hirundo: Hmm.. Then I should perhaps move dependencies into signal.cpp, which is probably where they belong anyway
19:21:06 <Starn> win7 is ran natively i do not have VB.
19:21:44 <Starn> i have question which probably would save time is it easier to compile under linux for windows?
19:21:59 <OwenS> Starn: In general, its easier to program under Unicies
19:22:32 <Starn> well i use to use and mildly old linux... and i remember compile things with just one command.
19:23:05 <OwenS> "make" is generally the case for most Unix derivatives, yes
19:23:46 <Starn> oh crap if it is still that easier vs windows... all i need than is a new HD.. and duel boot
19:24:42 <Starn> until than i guess i can use qemu or vb or something.
19:28:31 <Starn> hey Rubidium what would happen if you had 2005 installed and try installing 2008?
19:30:09 <OwenS> Hirundo: _Its gotta be _globset because all _tbuset signals are in the same segment
19:30:14 <OwenS> Starn: It installs both
19:31:38 <Starn> well i been looking in my list of programs and it shows at one point i had 2008 and 2005 installed and 2005 one was done during 09...
19:33:43 <Starn> some of this stuff on my progam list is not really on my compute rnor has it been o.O maybe i should see about getting new cd key and reinstall windows all together..
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19:35:25 * peter1138 gets rid of the jack patch
19:40:53 <peter1138> jacked the jack patch, i suppose
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19:42:10 <OwenS> Yay! I now have a long distance Not gate :p
19:54:33 <DJNekkid> is it possible to remove something from bananas?
19:56:19 <Eddi|zuHause> DJNekkid: set the openttd versions available?
19:57:26 <DJNekkid> but then can another author upload something with the same grfID ?
19:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> why would the GRFID matter?
19:59:40 <DJNekkid> i assume Lawton27 aint gonna change grfID on that new monolev set, and he asked me to remove the old version from bananas, so he could upload his own :)
20:08:23 <planetmaker> Hm... He should just update the old one
20:08:40 <planetmaker> It doesn't make sense to remove something (nor is it possible)
20:16:33 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: has a go with that tram yet? :)
20:18:40 <planetmaker> DJNekkid: if asked nicely, it's possible to add a 2nd account to a newgrf entry at bananas
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20:19:32 <planetmaker> PeterT: he explained it why he thinks so. But he also has other reasons ;-)
20:19:57 <PeterT> Answering to a mis-placed topic isn't the same as posting in the wrong forum
20:20:11 <planetmaker> Further I completely agree with Rubi's and Yexo's replies, thus I won't enter that meta-discussion there
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20:21:29 <planetmaker> In his eyes I'm most probably a lickspittle of the OpenTTD devs anyway ;-)
20:23:14 <PeterT> "Its even more inappropriate than the original posting because you know better." <-- how was it innopropriate?
20:23:38 <planetmaker> it's a lack of arguments. Just don't bother
20:24:16 <planetmaker> he simply doesn't like me ;-)
20:26:05 <andythenorth> lets code something instead :)
20:26:16 * planetmaker hugs andythenorth :-)
20:27:05 <andythenorth> I name the small electric tram "Kreuzberg"
20:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yeah, haven't found any obvious problems
20:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> except that there are no loading stages :)
20:27:49 <andythenorth> nice, afk - I'll be back soon!
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20:57:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: next size up is 4/8 in your diagram?
20:59:06 <Eddi|zuHause> in lengths 1, 2, 2.5, 3, 4 tile lengths
20:59:20 <Eddi|zuHause> one "lengths" too much
21:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> one could make the engine 6/8 if you want more details
21:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> one could add 2 more wagons that way, too.
21:02:35 <andythenorth> I'll do 6/8 for the largest engine
21:02:46 <andythenorth> there are 3 electric engines planned
21:11:51 <Eddi|zuHause> 6/8 engine and 5/8 wagons maybe
21:12:30 <andythenorth> the mid sized wagons are 15t and 4/8
21:12:43 <andythenorth> if I can be bothered to draw them, then the 26t wagons can be 5/8
21:12:54 <andythenorth> but only if I can be bothered :)
21:17:12 <OwenS> Hmm... Is there a way to tell OpenTTD to make uncompressed saves?
21:17:38 <Rubidium> openttd.cfg, savegame_format = none
21:17:55 <OwenS> OK. Since I have savegame corruption :-(
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21:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt with 6/8+n*5/8 (n=4,8,12) version
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21:24:53 <Eddi|zuHause> could add n=16, but that gets really long...
21:25:01 <andythenorth> a thing of beauty
21:25:59 <andythenorth> How about we just have the default name for an RV be 'Road Vehicle (Tram) n' if the tram flag is set?
21:28:48 <OwenS> Furtehr evidence nobody (including me) have been testing my code enough
21:28:53 <OwenS> I didn't save an instructions next pointer...
21:29:26 <OwenS> ...this bug has existed since I created the saveload code and that I haven't noticed it is evidently sheer luck...
21:33:35 <Nite_Owl> SpComb: your IRC logs are not accessible
21:34:10 <Nite_Owl> unless the URL has changed ??
21:36:51 <Nite_Owl> dang - I always use a bookmark
21:37:20 <Seki> Is there any way to change the name of a grf on BaNaNaS?
21:39:24 <planetmaker> depends what name you mean
21:41:07 <planetmaker> But the displayed name in the content download can - IIRC - only be changed when you upload a new version
21:41:23 <Seki> To change the name of the newgrf from something like "noMonoMag" to something more helpful "Monorail and Maglev Disabler" - The "Edit" function does not allow you to change the name
21:41:57 <planetmaker> hm, wrong. No, it cannot
21:42:22 <Rubidium> the name is used as filename, making it technically very hard to rename stuff
21:42:38 <Seki> Thank you, I'll live with the terrible name then :)
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21:43:32 <Ammler> hmm, might not work with same id, i fear...
21:43:52 <OwenS> Ammler: Its OK, according to convo PM had earlier
21:44:09 <SpComb> Nite_Owl: they were down earlier today, but they should be loading fine now
21:44:12 <Ammler> OwenS: I meant Seki :-P
21:44:34 <OwenS> Ammler: And I was responding to your fear
21:44:52 <Ammler> so you can make new bananas entry with same GRFID?
21:45:08 <SpComb> although, I think I see what the issue is
21:45:08 <planetmaker> Why would one want to do that?
21:45:19 <Ammler> sounds a bit strange :-)
21:45:21 <SpComb> the irclogs are currently only accessible over IPv6 for some interesting reason
21:45:23 <planetmaker> for just renaming it's a bit strange
21:45:50 <Ammler> well, you can "hide" the wrong entry
21:47:33 <SpComb> the value of net.ipv6.bindv6only changed
21:48:01 <SpComb> how the heck did that happen
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21:50:55 <planetmaker> he... bananas upgrades get increasingly large ;-)
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21:54:18 <planetmaker> true. That was part of the download :-)
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22:50:37 <planetmaker> good night also from here
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23:53:06 <Starn> yay i am debuging openTTD at least i got something to work
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continue to next day ⏵
