IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-03-20
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00:00:06 <andythenorth> Yexo: I'm compiling that diff now, although it might really be bed time :o
00:00:07 <Rubidium> "The new 10.000 character keyboard from Microsoft, now only $29.95"
00:00:39 <Rubidium> (ever seen the massive list of warnings/manual at the back of their keyboards?)
00:00:53 <fjb> Ok, but they should surely stey away from software and concentrate on things they can.
00:01:20 <Yexo> that are 2 harmless warnings, not errors
00:01:53 <Rubidium> only two warnings? It's easy to generate way more
00:01:57 <andythenorth> definitely bed time
00:02:26 <Yexo> Rubidium: not without making msvc generate some warnings too
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00:03:42 <Yexo> Rubidium: that is just a single warning repeated many times
00:04:15 <Rubidium> yeah, but the massiveness of the "from" lists
00:04:41 <Rubidium> and that all caused by a (confirmed) compiler bug
00:05:13 <andythenorth> Yexo: that diff appears to solve the empty cargo slot issue
00:05:33 <andythenorth> and it's a more sane check :)
00:05:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
00:08:23 <DJ_Nekkid> thats a sewingmachine producer you know...
00:08:40 * andythenorth makes plans to recode 20 industries
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00:09:59 * andythenorth considers filing a bug....I have two sawmills near a station, only one gets the cargo :D
00:11:05 <Yexo> andythenorth: FS#3381, you're too late ;)
00:12:10 <andythenorth> funny that a check exists in game to prevent that 9.9
00:12:59 <andythenorth> thanks for help today, those who helped :)
00:13:14 <PeterT> Good night andythenorth
00:13:31 <Yexo> he probably never tried to extract the zip in the first place
00:13:45 <Yexo> but we'll never now, as he probably won't come back to the forum again now his problem is solved
00:13:52 <PeterT> "I bet it doesn't work anyway"
00:14:23 <PeterT> Doesn't even explain what he did right
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00:14:35 <PeterT> for other, future people with similar problems
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00:31:15 * PeterT wonders what the point of a bouncer is if you don't stay in the channel
00:32:39 <davis> i'd say saving nickname , but theres some nickserv on oftc
00:32:50 <PeterT> Yexo: /whois would show it anyway
00:33:13 <OwenS> PeterT: No, it would show the BNC's
00:33:32 <PeterT> why would you want to hide it, anyway?
00:37:22 <roboboy> to avoid being (D)DOSed?
00:37:52 <roboboy> or the risk of it happening
00:38:45 <davis> anonymity is something nice on the internet :D
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00:40:38 <PeterT> Sends you highlight alerts, as if you could respond to them
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00:40:53 <OwenS> That message triggered my spam detector...
00:42:59 <OwenS> ...That message should have triggered OFTC's spam filters :p
00:43:29 <davis> maybe they love google.
00:44:07 <Yexo> it probably would have triggered it if you posted that in multiple channels or multiple times here
00:44:34 <Yexo> but if a single line would trigger the filtes the you wouldn't even be able to say: "Look what spam we got in there yesterday: ..."
00:45:03 <davis> well there could be some keyword trigger
00:45:34 <davis> so e.g viagra and men and some website in one line
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00:45:58 <Rubidium> what spammer writes viagra correctly?
00:46:43 <Yexo> davis: I get a lot of mail about viagra for men lately, I tried www.some-spam-filter.com but that didn't work, what do you use? <- it'll also trigger on such lines
00:47:40 <davis> if it'd be that easy to make a perfect spam-filter or protection
00:47:51 <OwenS> I'd kind of expect it to send a message to an op :p
00:47:55 <davis> the botnets would go bankrupt and the internet traffic would fall about 75%
00:48:09 <OwenS> davis: Somewhat less. 50% is BitTorrent
00:48:24 <davis> yeah I had that in mind too
00:48:40 <davis> i can't actually believe that this many people still use torrent , mostly for illegal purposes
00:48:57 <davis> at least in germany they are realy after torrent loaders haha
00:49:35 <Rubidium> yeah, because we use torrents we don't spend 1500 euros a year on CDs and such
00:49:36 <OwenS> davis: In the UK... they've at most sent threatening letters. And had no court admissible evidence
00:50:11 <Rubidium> and again... if they close torrents the good people suffer for the bad people
00:50:14 <davis> well I do prefer wuala or rapidshare :P
00:50:19 <davis> for legal purposes ofcourse
00:50:22 <Rubidium> see airport security madness
00:50:45 <OwenS> Rubidium: The police really hate things like IPRED. Makes their job so much harder
00:50:53 <Rubidium> davis: yeah, that method that wouldn't have caught the Christmas bomber
00:51:17 <OwenS> Rubidium: Security Theatre ;-)
00:51:20 <Rubidium> and that method that can't be legally used for children in most countries
00:51:27 <davis> actually I only been to London heathrow once. And i was lucky enough to witness some arabian looking dude being arested by 5 very angry mp5 armed men.
00:52:03 <davis> now that's all you can wish for , visiting London ;)
00:52:53 <davis> oh well Rubidium don't be too certain about "legally" doing anything. Just now they banned "killer-games" such as egoshooters in switzerland for the possibly most stupid reason
00:53:27 <davis> it might turn people with mental problems into killing machines , and therefore a general ban is reasonable
00:54:12 <davis> 21st cenutry is awesome.
00:54:56 <davis> Me being a bit general now , about every law can be bypassed by another law
00:55:54 <OwenS> If I ruled a country, I would so introduce the death penalty. But only for politicians comitting certain offences.
00:56:18 <davis> you ruling a country you'd be a politican yourself , unless you want to be the Queen :P
00:56:53 <OwenS> davis: And therefore bound by my own law. I'd also make modifying said law a real legal quagmire, generally involving the proposer being executed
00:57:53 <davis> one way or another , about every political system has it's flaws
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00:58:46 <OwenS> (OK, if I were writing a constitution, I'd make modifying it requre two supermajorities in two successive parlimentary terms, then a supermajority from the populace, then in the next term it would require another supermajority in both parliment and with the populace to be kept
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00:59:49 <Rubidium> the biggest flaw is stupidity and everything related to that (extremism in all forms included)
01:00:10 <Rubidium> yes, I'd classify the pope as an extremist
01:00:34 <Rubidium> oh... there goes the discussion :(
01:00:56 <davis> well , einstein said something about human stupidity I think
01:01:18 <OwenS> Rubidium: Who wouldn't classify the pope as an extremist? Related side note: I watched an interesting debate recently about the catholic church.
01:01:54 <davis> as shocking that might be , there are still a LOT of hardcore believers around
01:02:05 <Rubidium> OwenS: that the (child) abuse in the church is because of the celibacy?
01:02:46 <OwenS> Rubidium: "Is the catholic church a force for good in the world". Most notable speaker: Stephen Fry. Polling before and after, most audience members voted no before, and even more did so after
01:03:44 <Rubidium> OwenS: yeah, saw that... that was good :)
01:03:49 <davis> I'am always good for a round of church bashing.
01:03:58 <_newage_> common do you have to discuss religious stuff now? perverts are near kids in churchs, holiday trips, schools...
01:04:16 <OwenS> I want the "Is europe failing it's muslims" debate footage to be posted already >_<
01:04:54 <Rubidium> _newage_: with perverts you mean the priests, right?
01:05:12 <davis> catholic schools are no good for your kid
01:05:42 <_newage_> no priests, not exactly
01:06:05 <OwenS> Any religious education is bad, whether catholic, protestant, muslim, jewish or atheist...
01:06:36 <_newage_> or a politic party ideology
01:07:02 <davis> well OwenS , that might be a bit harsh. I think religion is just fine as long you don't overdo it
01:07:41 <davis> Though iam a non believer myself :c
01:07:46 <OwenS> davis: And a religious school does so. Education should always be agnostic; otherwise closes minds
01:07:49 <fjb> Men inveted god. So what ist that invention good for?
01:07:54 <Rubidium> davis: but is "forcing" your child to pray before lunch overdoing it or not?
01:08:07 <_newage_> a person who can't take knowing he is going right to the worms is a shame
01:08:13 <Rubidium> fjb: subdueing others
01:08:15 <davis> In my humble Opinion it is overdoing it by far haha
01:08:36 <Fast2> Now, it seems to work altough I did not change anything important...
01:09:04 <Rubidium> fjb: i.e. a theocracy, e.g. Iran and possibly the USA
01:09:53 <fjb> Not only possibly the USA. And the leading German party is also christian.
01:09:56 <davis> I was baptized protestant , but noone ever forced me to go anywhere , pray to anyone or believe anything
01:10:37 <davis> that however led me to not going to church for almost 15 years now :D
01:10:49 <_newage_> theocracies are scaring, I don't know how people can have some sympathy for the americans
01:11:04 <davis> "9/11 changed everything"
01:11:24 <Rubidium> fjb: true, but... "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA and the republic for which it stands: one nation under GOD..."
01:11:47 <Rubidium> does Germany have something like that that is drilled DAILY on school?
01:12:01 <fjb> No, it did not really change everything. It only made it easier for the security industry and for the militare.
01:12:02 <_newage_> when they say GOd they mean: US, the government!
01:13:03 <fjb> Rubidium: Not yet. But politicians started to talk about teaching creationism at school.
01:13:08 <Rubidium> fjb: and to make it even more fun... do they pledge allegiance to the flag when entering an amusement park?
01:14:06 <Rubidium> Germany is so much farther from being a theocracy than the USA
01:14:06 <fjb> Rubidium: Things are not done that obvious here. And we are far from the way the USA is doing things. But it starts here.
01:14:22 <davis> Germany got a east-German chancelor :p
01:14:37 <fjb> Yes, but a christian one.
01:15:21 <davis> America was choosen by the lord to bring peace and democracy to the world
01:15:27 <davis> preferable the nations with oil.
01:16:41 <Rubidium> davis: that's probably a broken translation... "... to bring pieces and demo crazy to the world"
01:17:48 <Rubidium> so... there went my chance to go to the US...
01:18:22 <fjb> You can deduce everything from a false assumption. That god exists is a false assumption.
01:18:47 <Rubidium> hopefully the commonwealths still allow me though :)
01:19:18 <davis> yeah GB is pretty open :D
01:20:30 <davis> though it can get pretty scary if they ask you to bootup your laptop at the airport and you got the wrong custom-bootscreen :p
01:21:13 <Rubidium> "sorry", can you give me the bag you just put through the scanner? :)
01:22:27 <Rubidium> never experienced that though
01:22:47 <Rubidium> and I've seen my fair share of crazy TSAers
01:23:12 <Rubidium> Transportation Security Administration
01:24:30 <davis> oh well enough security/religion/nation/priest/pedophiles bashing for now :)
01:25:07 <davis> that's of course a matter of fact :D
01:25:07 <Rubidium> oh, did I already say the Dutch are stupid?
01:49:55 <PeterT> Ahh - The wiki is finally back to a normal amount of edits per day
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06:51:36 <OTTDnoob> How do I place a "normal signal"
06:52:03 <OTTDnoob> Im looking at a tutorial and it says the following
06:52:09 <OTTDnoob> Notice the signals around the loop are all one-way. To place a one-way signal place a signal as normal, then click the signal again, once or twice depending on the orientation you want for your signal.
06:52:51 <OTTDnoob> But I don't know how to "place a oneway signal as a normal signal
06:53:58 <OTTDnoob> Is a one way entry signal a "normal signal"?
06:55:58 <Yexo> " To place a one-way signal place a signal as normal, then click the signal again" <- what is meant is: "just build a normal signal by clicking on the tile, this will build a twoway signal (at least it did with old openttd builds). After you bulid a twoway signal keep the build-signal tool open and click the tile with the signal again"
06:56:21 <Yexo> that part probably needs to be rewritten if path signals are the default signal type
06:59:53 <OTTDnoob> I think I got it...I was using oneway entry signals but I think I should have been using block signals..I misread what the block signal does
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08:23:40 <Alberth> I'd expect a newgrf debug button somewhere in the newgrf window
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08:48:50 <andythenorth> Alberth: in addition to my other suggestions, or instead of?
08:50:33 <Alberth> Don't know. For industry, there is a simple 1-to-1 relation between newgrf objects and gui windows. For other newgrfs it may be less simple (eg a house, bridge, cost factors, etc)
08:50:49 <Alberth> (but you know that better than I do :) )
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08:51:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: I have never coded a bridge or house :)
08:52:59 <Alberth> Also, I cannot estimate how much more tricky it gets if you'd only have one button related with a single newgrf instead of one for each use of it (like what you seem to suggest).
08:54:08 <Alberth> perhaps you'd need to have a list of 'uses' or so in that debug window
08:54:23 <Muxy> Hi there, What does mean the error "disconnecting vehicle ?"
08:54:36 <Muxy> "Disconnecting Road Vehicle"
08:54:46 <Alberth> we have that error in the game?
08:55:25 <Muxy> Yes, on win32 client side it appears with MessageBox
08:55:29 <andythenorth> probably an articulated road vehicle that has come apart for some reason
08:55:40 <Alberth> Nope, we only have a disconnecting network: "STR_NETWORK_CONNECTION_DISCONNECT :{BLACK}Disconnect"
08:55:51 <Alberth> it must be a NewGRF message
08:56:11 <Muxy> and on server it appears on the console
08:56:36 <Alberth> error messages tend to pop up everywhere :)
08:56:37 <Muxy> and server process stops
08:56:59 <Alberth> but it is a NewGRF message, so ask its author.
08:57:21 <Muxy> on client after "ok" on the messagebox i have the fatal application failure
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08:59:07 <Alberth> Muxy: NewGRF are not simple graphics additions, they run as part of the game and share data structures etc, so yes, a broken NewGRF can bring down the game.
08:59:22 <Alberth> good morning Terkhen and planetmaker
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08:59:40 <planetmaker> Muxy: you want some savegames which will crash OpenTTD due to now unavailable but compatibly marked newgrfs? :-D
09:00:11 <Alberth> planetmaker: he already has one :)
09:00:55 <planetmaker> I have at least one. With a very very early FIRS version with now very incompatible industries... 100% chance of instant crash ;)
09:01:05 <planetmaker> Though old ISR savegames are good, too
09:01:52 <planetmaker> Alberth: did I read that correcly somehow when briefly scanning history, that newgrf debug features are thought of?
09:02:22 <Alberth> andythenorth has such thoughts at the dev(?) forum
09:02:50 <planetmaker> Not a bad thought :-)
09:03:22 <Alberth> just pushing him a bit to make it useful for all newgrfs :)
09:03:48 <andythenorth> I only drew the icon. Yexo provided the initial patch :)
09:03:51 <Muxy> Ok Alberth i found the error
09:04:04 <Muxy> if (dir == INVALID_TRACKDIR) {
09:04:05 <Muxy> if (!IsRoadVehFront(v)) error("Disconnecting road vehicle.");
09:04:13 <planetmaker> ah, that looks VERY useful indeed
09:04:24 <Muxy> nothing to do with newgrf
09:04:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that patch was life saving the last few days
09:04:55 <planetmaker> Muxy: that's newgrf
09:05:08 <planetmaker> articulated vs. non-articulated for instance
09:05:40 <planetmaker> if you mix up IDs of vehicles in different versions
09:06:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I do believe so :-)
09:06:20 <andythenorth> Muxy: what newgrf are you using?
09:06:23 <planetmaker> I just downloaded it for future usage :-)
09:06:29 <Muxy> letme check on my server config
09:07:20 <Eddi|zuHause> [20.03.2010 02:12] <Rubidium> fjb: true, but... "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the USA and the republic for which it stands: one nation under GOD..."
09:07:21 <Eddi|zuHause> [20.03.2010 02:12] <Rubidium> does Germany have something like that that is drilled DAILY on school?
09:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know about west germany, but in east germany there was some sort of oath spoken every day in school. being communistic it tended to avoid religion, though, but does that really matter?
09:07:39 <Muxy> generictrams_v0.4 on server
09:08:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: we never had any such thing ever in school
09:08:14 <andythenorth> Muxy: can't help then, sorry :) Glad it's not my grf then.
09:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> my memorys back then are kind of vague...
09:08:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: my memorys of yesterday are kind of vague :)
09:08:53 <Alberth> Muxy: roadveh.cpp does not exist in trunk
09:08:54 <planetmaker> Only two times I pledged to serve the state faithfully (not swear though) was in the army and when I took my current job
09:09:53 <Muxy> hum forget to mention i was in 0.7.5
09:09:55 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway... there's an official oath in germany, which includes a phrase like "so god helps me", where the rules allow replacing "god" with any deity you wish, or leave out the phrase entirely
09:10:20 <planetmaker> yes, indeed. So that's up to whoever takes the oath
09:11:17 <planetmaker> Without the last half-sentence it would be against §4 GG
09:19:40 <Muxy> cant understand how newgrf can be involved in the "Disconnecting Road Vehicle" error
09:23:21 <planetmaker> Muxy: I told you how :-)
09:23:48 <planetmaker> [10:05] <planetmaker> articulated vs. non-articulated for instance
09:23:50 <planetmaker> [10:05] <planetmaker> or tram vs. road
09:23:51 <planetmaker> [10:05] <planetmaker> and stuff
09:23:53 <planetmaker> [10:05] <planetmaker> if you mix up IDs of vehicles in different versions
09:24:11 <Muxy> what does mean : if you mix up IDs blablabla
09:24:47 <Muxy> did you take in account that ONLY generictrams was used ?
09:25:59 <Terkhen> if you use different versions of a single GRF in the same savegame, you can mess it up too
09:26:24 <andythenorth> Muxy: what version of OTTD?
09:26:27 <Muxy> i use ONLY generictrams.grf
09:26:32 <Muxy> [10:09] <Muxy> hum forget to mention i was in 0.7.5
09:27:46 <Terkhen> that's what I said, single GRF, different versions
09:27:58 <Terkhen> or even only a GRF that has some kind of bug or problem
09:28:19 <Muxy> diffrent version of what
09:28:39 <Terkhen> [10:26:00] <Terkhen> if you use different versions of a single GRF in the same savegame, you can mess it up too
09:29:30 <Alberth> make a save game with one version, play further with another (updated) one
09:29:47 <Muxy> the game was running on dedicated forked server
09:30:17 <Alberth> you start from an empty world?
09:31:50 <Alberth> euhm, to be clear, 'empty' in the sense that you create a new world, rather than load a save game
09:32:19 <Muxy> no savegame has been loaded
09:34:54 <Alberth> I don't have enough experience with newgrfs to know how to proceed, I am afraid.
09:35:35 <Alberth> One thing you could do is to check whether a recent 1.0 version (or a nightly) still has this problem.
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09:59:17 <erani> I wonder if this has been asked before, but are the open music tracks going to be included in 1.0.0 release?
10:00:51 <planetmaker> no, but you can opt to download them in the installer. Same as with sounds and graphcs base sets
10:01:52 <erani> ah, I meant that. but they are available already? nifty
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11:11:17 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19478 /trunk/src/ (town_cmd.cpp town_gui.cpp town_type.h): -Codechange: Resolve TS_ prefix clash between TileSource and TownSize enums.
11:11:29 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19479 /trunk/src/ (town_cmd.cpp town_type.h): -Codechange: Test range of town size and layout instead of against the current last value.
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12:21:25 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: terkhen * r19480 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix: Stop reducing the size of the vehicle list after selecting a vehicle with a long description.
12:28:58 <andythenorth> I have a problem and would like some advice on the right thing to do:
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12:51:04 <PeterT> why does a bind usually fail?
12:51:04 <PeterT> dbg: [net] Listening on 95.211.11.24:3979
12:51:04 <PeterT> dbg: [net] [server] could not start network: bind() failed
12:51:55 <PeterT> I keep setting the port to 3978, but it goes back to 3979
12:54:14 <Ammler> why do you like to use 3978?
12:54:26 <PeterT> I already have a server on 3979
12:55:06 <Ammler> maybe it doesn't allow 3978 because that is used for the advertising..
12:55:27 <DorpsGek> Ammler: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:55:38 <Alberth> and 3979 fails since there is another server using that port
12:56:09 <PeterT> thanks, i'll try again in a sec
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13:08:42 <andythenorth> fetching the town index for an industry - I'm thinking that's not too expensive to do?
13:11:12 <Alberth> Industry has a Town *town field, so most likely, no :)
13:15:14 <PeterT> Ok. I just set it to 3980, and it still tried to bind to 2979
13:17:26 <planetmaker> you possibly modified the wrong cfg?
13:18:21 <PeterT> I don't think so - I just tried ./openttd -D -c "openttd.cfg"
13:18:25 <PeterT> and it still didn't work
13:18:28 <Alberth> you also use a -D [ip][:port] = Start dedicated server parameter?
13:21:38 <Ammler> what if you grep for 3979 in the cfg?
13:22:04 <PeterT> Ammler: I know I've changed it, but whenever I start openttd -D, it changes server_port back to 3979
13:23:05 <Ammler> and you changed the cfg while openttd was down?
13:24:31 <PeterT> I just changed server_port to 3980 again, and when I did ./openttd -D, it changed it back to 3979 in the config
13:24:40 <PeterT> maybe 3980 is also being used O_o
13:25:00 <Alberth> did you change the 3978 port too?
13:25:26 <PeterT> No, I haven't touched 3978, I think?
13:25:28 <Alberth> perhaps that one doesn't work, and then the program uses the default values again
13:25:40 <glx> you can't change 3978 in the config
13:26:36 <Ammler> and you are sure, there is no openttd running somewhere else?
13:26:59 <PeterT> 3778 pts/1 S+ 2:39 ./openttd -D -g save/Earth Multi 2.sav
13:26:59 <PeterT> 11829 pts/0 S+ 0:00 grep --color=auto openttd
13:27:31 <Ammler> and that openttd runs on 3979?
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13:29:06 <Ammler> maybe it is because you use ! in front of server name...
13:29:33 <PeterT> Oh, you're one of them
13:29:49 <OwenS> OpenTTD really ought to use a sort function which ignores punctuation for it's server list...
13:30:26 <Alberth> no use, people will use letters instead
13:30:47 <Ammler> then you will have aaaaaaaBestServer
13:31:07 <Alberth> or 00000000000000PickMe
13:31:11 <OwenS> OK. How about this sort func: (int) rand()? :P
13:31:18 <PeterT> OwenS: Way to go, now my problem will never be solve
13:31:22 <andythenorth> Terkhen: fancy running another FIRS test?
13:31:38 <Ammler> PeterT: do they share same cfg?
13:31:49 <PeterT> they aren't even on the same user
13:31:51 <OwenS> (Hmm, no need for cast; rand returns a signed int :-) )
13:31:54 <Alberth> OwenS: that function is not transitive
13:32:24 <Alberth> OwenS: a<b and b<c should imply a<c
13:32:29 <OwenS> Alberth: I'm aware of that. I'm also aware MS screwed up by using it to randomly sort their browser ballot screen ;-)
13:32:58 <OwenS> OK, sort function of (server->randNum); :P. Or even by IP address :p
13:33:52 <Ammler> hmm, I can confirm -D ip:port doesn't work here either
13:34:40 <PeterT> seems like OpenTTD (no matter what it says in the config) uses the default port
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13:36:36 <Ammler> but ./openttd -D -c test.cfg works
13:36:54 <Ammler> cp openttd.cfg test.cfg and change the port
13:37:19 * andythenorth tries to figure out using tile slope detection to draw quarry sprites
13:37:50 <PeterT> No, it doesn't work for me
13:38:11 <Ammler> it might be possible -D ip:port works only with ip addresses mentioned in the server_bind_addresses seciont
13:38:47 <PeterT> dbg: [net] Detected broadcast addresses:
13:38:47 <PeterT> dbg: [net] 0) 127.0.0.1
13:38:47 <PeterT> dbg: [net] 1) 95.211.11.24
13:39:27 <Ammler> could you paste your cfg...
13:40:22 <Ammler> well, the network section
13:40:27 <Ammler> and the addresses section
13:41:02 <PeterT> what addresses section?
13:43:03 <jano> i am trying to compile openttd by myself
13:43:17 <jano> what exactly is in package named "openttd useful"?
13:43:49 <jano> i dont want do download unecessary things because i have only mobile internet connection
13:43:54 <Terkhen> andythenorth: okay, but using the patch is really easy to do them :P
13:44:04 <PeterT> jano: It has the things needed to compile OpenTTD
13:44:10 <andythenorth> Terkhen: ok, maybe I should compile that :)
13:44:17 <PeterT> Ammler: anything wrong with it?
13:44:41 <jano> PeterT: zlib, libpng, freetype ...?
13:45:15 <PeterT> jano: if you don't want want * compression, don't get zlib. If you don't want to make png screenshots, don't get libpng
13:45:38 <PeterT> but then you have to remove the preprocessor definitions for those files
13:46:03 <PeterT> jano: if you are tight on space, MSVC is definately _not_ the way to go
13:46:14 <Ammler> [14:40] <PeterT> what addresses section? <-- [server_bind_addresses]
13:46:21 <OwenS> WTF. Who sents a website invitation to a fricking mailing list?!
13:46:42 <PeterT> Ammler: no such section?
13:46:57 <Ammler> then add it and try again
13:47:03 <andythenorth> town index goes to 255?
13:47:16 <jano> PeterT: i already have VS2008Express and DirectX SDK
13:47:31 <Ammler> entry could be 0.0.0.0
13:47:46 <Ammler> or you can specify you prefered ip
13:48:12 <PeterT> I thought server_bind_ip = 95.211.11.24 would be that
13:48:23 <Ammler> if that works, you might report a fs
13:48:43 <Ammler> that is depreciated since ipv6 support
13:49:21 <PeterT> for some reason, it keeps trying for 3979
13:49:36 <Ammler> and that is a unpatched clean 0.7.5 server?
13:49:52 <PeterT> Why would that make a difference?
13:50:53 <Ammler> just try with unpatched trunk, if it fails report again...
13:51:33 <Ammler> that is the way you have to go with every issue, btw.
13:53:54 * andythenorth ponders different some pseudo-random values
13:55:32 <andythenorth> town index might be pseudo-random enough to distribute industry closures
13:55:55 <andythenorth> the other three things I'm currently doing might be redundant
13:56:11 <Hirundo> What's so non-random about the normal random bits?
13:57:16 <andythenorth> there's no 'spread'...
13:57:44 <andythenorth> it's slightly complicated by trying to have two different kinds of industry closing behaviour
13:58:14 <andythenorth> industry random bits should work for large slices.
13:59:03 <andythenorth> Hirundo: here is a better explanation: I don't want true random, I want random as people often think it should be: evenly distributed
13:59:08 <andythenorth> i.e. pseudo-random
13:59:09 <PeterT> Ammler: works with clean trunk
13:59:17 <PeterT> Ammler: not trunk, clean 0.7.5
13:59:23 <PeterT> Ammler: Something in the patch :-(
13:59:54 <Hirundo> Is the number of towns on the map available to the grf?
14:00:12 <andythenorth> the town index is
14:00:12 <PeterT> Ammler: + _settings_client.network.server_port=3979+goalID;
14:01:08 <Hirundo> You may get into trouble with small maps (<256^2) or very few towns
14:01:42 <andythenorth> town index + industry random bits should do it
14:01:54 <andythenorth> if that doesn't work, I give up
14:03:43 <andythenorth> if some grf-local global storage was available, I could stop dicking around with a near-impossible task
14:05:17 <Ammler> now I wonder why -D didn't work on my server
14:05:22 <Hirundo> How many random bits are available? 32?
14:05:56 <andythenorth> In the industry? It's a dword, with random in three of the bytes, trigger in the other
14:06:02 <frosch123> and some pseudorandom
14:06:29 <andythenorth> I am going by spec, not code - I could be wrong
14:06:38 <frosch123> the last byte of 5f is zero for industries :)
14:07:23 <andythenorth> how about a dword for an industry that was guaranteed to be unique?
14:07:36 <andythenorth> hmmm....industries must have some kind of instance ID in game?
14:07:42 <Hirundo> Why does it *have* to be unique?
14:07:55 <andythenorth> to prevent two industries closing in the same month
14:08:19 <frosch123> isn't that silly on a map with hundreds of industries?
14:08:36 <andythenorth> two industries of same type might make sense
14:08:58 <andythenorth> two industries of different types - definitely silly :)
14:09:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: imo the task is best solved by making the random production change callback depend on number of industries instead of map size
14:10:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: so instead of the industry trying to decided closure on a ticker, we wait for the game to come by at some random point?
14:10:54 <frosch123> depending on an absolute number of industries is just as wrong as doing the same amount of random changes independent whether there are 10 or 1000 industries
14:11:16 <andythenorth> random might work.
14:11:42 <andythenorth> that's what the random production change cb is *supposed* to be for :)
14:11:58 <frosch123> random production change callback should work well for industry closure unless you have very few industries on a big map
14:12:26 <frosch123> e.g. starting 2048x2048 with no industries just causes havoc currently :p
14:12:32 <andythenorth> ok....so I have two cases.
14:12:50 <andythenorth> The first is industries that should wait a certain time for no cargo, then go 'BOOM' very quickly
14:13:02 <andythenorth> I think that is nearly handled by the pseudo-random nonsense I have coded
14:13:23 <andythenorth> Preventing two closing in one month is just a gameplay optimisation in that case.
14:13:59 <andythenorth> The second case is preventing the mass wave of closures of other secondary industry five years into game
14:14:15 <andythenorth> I think that the random production change cb + a protection period should cover that
14:14:28 <andythenorth> again, the two-in-one-month is an optimisation
14:15:29 <andythenorth> So likely there is no problem here - except for the scaling of the random production change cb with number of industries
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14:27:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: I imagine we can't move actual industry closure (deletion) from the monthly loop to the daily loop?
14:28:04 <frosch123> the random production change is in the daily loop
14:28:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: my suggested change wouldn't work anywya
14:28:32 <frosch123> the monthly cb is on 1st, which is very much expected by certain grfs
14:28:54 <andythenorth> I was proposing moving the code that does the deletion from map
14:29:04 <PeterT> had to change _settings.network.server_port
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14:30:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19481 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Turn _industry_counts into a static member of Industry.
14:31:27 <andythenorth> if (i->prod_level == PRODLEVEL_CLOSURE) { delete i }; could be moved to end of ChangeIndustryProduction?
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14:37:26 <Ammler> PeterT: I hope you learned from it, I had too :-)
14:38:37 <PeterT> I learned how to "code"
14:38:52 <PeterT> and to try things with a non-patched version
14:39:01 <PeterT> and to explain the _entire_ situation
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15:14:24 * andythenorth wonders why setting industry special flag 1 (cut trees) causes the game to blow up?
15:16:55 <Alberth> OpenTTD is made of trees
15:18:11 <andythenorth> Assertion failed at line 79 of /Users/andy/Documents/workspace/OTTD/trunk/src/industry_map.h: IsTileType(t, MP_INDUSTRY)
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15:21:52 <dih> new saxophone mouth piece
15:23:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19482 /trunk/src/ (town_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp vehicle_cmd.cpp): -Doc: Doxygen additions/updates.
15:28:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: let me guess, it happens for industries where the north tile is not an industry tile
15:28:47 <frosch123> ChopLumberMillTrees checks whether the north tile is completeted before chopping
15:29:03 <frosch123> which asserts if that tile does not actually belong to the industry
15:29:36 <andythenorth> FIRS has nothing to handle industry construction stages...could the two be related?
15:30:41 <andythenorth> I've found a layout that has no tile for xy location 00 00
15:30:44 <frosch123> hmm, no. i mean you specified an industry to chop trees which has no tile at offset (0,0) of the layout
15:30:59 <andythenorth> yup what you just said
15:31:13 <andythenorth> well that was fun
15:31:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19483 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: Code layout fixes, and parentheses reduction.
15:31:39 <andythenorth> frosch123 I was considering setting every secondary industry to chop trees as a way of avoiding the location check
15:32:31 <frosch123> you should do that for industries before 1930 or so
15:32:50 <planetmaker> the baker baking bread stright from the ground-down pine tree
15:33:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19484 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Rename parameter 'x' of CalcBridgeLenCostFactor() to 'length'.
15:33:35 <andythenorth> If I make the wrong decision, I end up having to rework my code (due to the game being improved)
15:34:28 <frosch123> i cannot remember the old discussions about distributing cargo to multiple industries
15:35:11 <andythenorth> Rubidium doesn't like the idea.
15:37:23 <andythenorth> I was hoping to get a 0.1 release of FIRS soon, but I'm blocked by this. All code dies, but ideally not too soon :)
15:37:37 * andythenorth feels like having an OzTrans moment
15:38:28 <andythenorth> specifically, if Yexo's patch for AcceptSameCargo is going in trunk, then I know I can use cb14B safely
15:39:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: a quick check shows that your hedges fix seems to improve the situation.
15:39:30 <frosch123> but isn't that code exactly what you need to prevent industry clusters :p
15:39:38 <planetmaker> not yet :-) I'm just cross-checking
15:39:59 <andythenorth> frosch123: the 14 tile check? no
15:40:26 <andythenorth> it's in the right direction, but it's the wrong approach. Yexo showed a better patch for that based on tile checks.
15:41:12 <andythenorth> I guess I should separate my problems.
15:41:25 <andythenorth> I have one problem for FIRS dev where I just need to know which gamble to take
15:41:45 <andythenorth> And I have conceptual / gameplay / usability dislikes of the way the secondary industry check is done, full stop :)
15:41:58 <andythenorth> Whether FIRS exists or not, that check is just wrong
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15:45:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: I'll compile your patch and test
15:46:08 <andythenorth> I'll have to modify my nfo so it might be a little while ;)
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15:53:25 <planetmaker> do you want your full name shipped?
15:53:42 <planetmaker> in the credits (dunno, are you there already?)
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16:45:36 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19485 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Re-implement CalcBridgeLenCostFactor() in a more readable way without changing computed costs.
16:47:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19486 /trunk/src/ (autoreplace.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Code style, move var declarations closer to their first use.
16:53:29 <OwenS> I'm tempted to design an absolutely insidious device which takes IP packets and fragments them maximally (I.e. turns an N byte packet into N 1 byte fragments), then transmits them in random order
16:53:59 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19487 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Removed non-reachable return statement.
16:55:01 <Alberth> OwenS: too predictable, send some bigger packets too :)
16:55:45 <OwenS> Alberth: The idea is to make the connection work, but work really badly. Fragmenting a ~1000 byte packet into 1000 chunks is gonna A) mean 95% overhead and B) Mean insane packet loss
17:00:44 <Noldo> why don't you just drop and delay randomly
17:00:53 * andythenorth decides the sky is not falling, and fixes some trivial bugs, (and compiles the production change patch)
17:03:57 <OwenS> Noldo: Because fragmenting things to silly levels is more fun and insidious
17:08:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19488 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Use last_error data for removal in CmdRailTrackHelper() as well.
17:10:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19489 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce a had_success variable in SendAllVehiclesToDepot().
17:13:12 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19490 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Return to old behaviour of CmdLevelLand() by keeping track of last error.
17:14:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19491 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Keep track of last error in CmdRemoveLongRoad().
17:19:28 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19492 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Codechange: Keep track of last error in CmdClearArea().
17:22:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19493 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Keep track of last error in CmdDepotSellAllVehicles().
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17:58:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: alberth * r19494 /trunk/src/ (21 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Remove _error_message.
18:05:13 <PeterT> can parameters be combined, for example "./openttd -DMg 'savegame'"
18:07:52 <planetmaker> ./openttd -D -g blubber.sav
18:08:25 <PeterT> combine them, like I've shown above?
18:08:50 <planetmaker> faster than asking ;-)
18:12:32 <andythenorth> these are nice sprites
18:13:50 <frosch123> and why did petert still not volunteer for coding it?
18:15:48 <PeterT> oh, so THAT's what you were talking about!
18:16:19 <andythenorth> should I just try and patch this industry check thing. you guys can see it's driving me nuts.
18:16:28 <andythenorth> I hate patching without knowing what I'm doing :|
18:16:54 <PeterT> frosch123: I can't code GRFs
18:17:02 <PeterT> frosch123: correction, I don't know how to
18:17:09 <andythenorth> PeterT: I wasn't exactly born coding grfs
18:17:12 <PeterT> I probably could, if I had the time and patience
18:17:13 <andythenorth> oh you corrected yourself :)
18:17:42 <PeterT> andythenorth: how did you get started?
18:18:34 <andythenorth> I think zephyris gave me an nfo for HEQS...so that I could tweak sprite offsets in his code.
18:18:47 <andythenorth> Then I ended up coding the rest of the whole thing :P
18:19:11 <andythenorth> PeterT Pikka wiki is your friend to get started
18:19:19 <PeterT> not the ttdpatch wiki?
18:19:33 <PeterT> I know what it is, silly andythenorth
18:19:41 <andythenorth> I learnt the basics by formatting and commenting an uncommented and unformatted nfo
18:20:55 <andythenorth> that was two years ago. now there is a lot more commented nfo around to learn from
18:21:08 <andythenorth> and a lot of it is GPL so you can borrow from it
18:21:34 <PeterT> I don't even know the difference between an action and a callback
18:21:58 <andythenorth> learn by doing...
18:22:02 <Ammler> simply don't use things you don't know for start...
18:22:10 <andythenorth> just make a train appear.
18:22:17 <Ammler> you can make quite a lot without cbs
18:22:30 <andythenorth> use the BROS teaser I coded...it's on the devzone
18:22:33 <PeterT> I wouldn't know, because I don't know what they are
18:22:35 <planetmaker> callbacks are only necessary, if you really want to do the advanced things
18:22:49 <andythenorth> BROS teaser is simple, one engine.
18:23:04 <planetmaker> good starter then :-) ^
18:23:23 <planetmaker> Or look at the logic engine by Ammler
18:23:32 <andythenorth> maybe I only have the BROS teaser locally :o
18:23:34 <planetmaker> that's one engine only, too
18:23:44 <planetmaker> maybe not even sprites, dunno
18:23:44 <PeterT> andythenorth: the GRF is available on the devzone
18:23:55 <PeterT> andythenorth: I can decode it, I'm re-installing GRFCodec
18:24:10 <planetmaker> Also install nforenum. Quite important
18:24:24 <PeterT> I'll make a C:\Coding folder
18:24:52 <planetmaker> I'd recommend a mingw/msys environment for the sake of makefiles ;-)
18:25:00 <andythenorth> bros teaser has a fricking error in it <embarassed>
18:25:20 <PeterT> don't know if I have the libraries needed though
18:28:22 <andythenorth> that's a grf setup in the coop style
18:28:29 <andythenorth> uses a make file and a certain folder structure
18:28:41 <andythenorth> it's faster to develop, but there are more dependencies
18:29:01 <PeterT> How does the code "know" where the sprites are located in relative to the size of the picture?
18:29:17 <andythenorth> got an nfo file open?
18:29:53 <andythenorth> get the BROS teaser, then sprites/nfo/class20.pnfo
18:30:25 <PeterT> why does Notepad++ highlight everything in black for .nfo files? :/
18:31:54 <PeterT> 2 * 32 00 00 \b12 01 20 // Action 0
18:32:05 <PeterT> So you've told me that this shows Action 0, andythenorth
18:35:14 <andythenorth> action 0 defines properties
18:36:12 <andythenorth> further down there is an action 4 for the name text
18:36:38 <andythenorth> then an action 1 which defines 1 set of 8 'real' sprites
18:36:50 <andythenorth> then the action 2 and action 3
18:37:17 <andythenorth> that's it for a normal vehicle
18:37:47 <andythenorth> if you can get it building, you can try making changes
18:40:08 <PeterT> in "-1 sprites/diesels/class20.pcx 04 01 01 20 8 -3 -10
18:41:11 <andythenorth> it's a placeholder for the sprite number, nforenum turns it into the correct number
18:41:23 <andythenorth> compare bros-teaser.nfo
18:42:33 <andythenorth> pnfo is what we use for coop style build environments. it uses the c preprocessor to template nfo files
18:42:47 <PeterT> is the "compression" always 01?
18:43:15 <PeterT> can I delete __MACOSX?
18:43:18 <planetmaker> it's not. But it's nothing to worry about initially too much
18:43:31 <andythenorth> sorry I should have cleaned the zip
18:43:32 <planetmaker> (referring to compression)
18:45:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19495 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt luxembourgish.txt polish.txt):
18:45:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: esperanto - 14 changes by kristjan
18:45:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by
18:45:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
18:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 3 changes by Phreeze
18:45:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 1 changes by silver_777
18:45:46 <PeterT> Sure - if I ever need to make a FIRS-like GRF
18:46:00 <PeterT> Is it really necesarry to make a makefile for such test GRFs?
18:46:17 <andythenorth> I think it's better to learn without the make file
18:46:26 <andythenorth> then you appreciate the make file more :)
18:46:27 <planetmaker> ^ probably good, yes
18:46:34 <andythenorth> and you know what the tools are doing
18:46:42 <planetmaker> ^ that's the important part
18:47:07 <planetmaker> anyway... party time! :-) See you tomorrow
18:50:15 <PeterT> andythenorth: Is commenting available in the same format as C++ code?
18:50:39 <PeterT> if (IHaveAHorse) /* It will eat grass */
18:53:45 <frosch123> when using pnfo you it is the same, plain nfo only knows //
18:54:22 <PeterT> Will NFORenum take care of that?
18:54:51 <frosch123> no, the c preprocesser removes them
18:55:19 <andythenorth> nfo rarely benefits from massive comments :)
18:55:38 <andythenorth> it's so limited that it's surprisingly readable once you are used to it
18:55:58 <andythenorth> most things follow the same structure / pattern
18:56:19 <andythenorth> also, there's almost *no* room for code (design) style choices
18:56:31 <andythenorth> you can format different ways, but mostly there is one way to do something and that's it
18:57:13 <andythenorth> so fewer style decisions = easier coding, and reading
18:57:33 <PeterT> andythenorth: Yes, you were born being able to code
18:58:07 <andythenorth> no I was born being able to build Lego, everything else just followed from that
18:59:47 <andythenorth> coding FIRS is a bit like building this monster, only I keep running out of the pieces I need :|
19:01:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth: the missing pieces are always at the end of the box or inside whatever your brother is building
19:01:53 <PeterT> That isn't hard to build - it just requires good instructions :-P
19:02:10 <PeterT> andythenorth: so I have GRFCodec and NFORenum
19:02:13 <andythenorth> PeterT: no instructions...
19:02:35 <andythenorth> I have no idea how you use them on windows though :0
19:02:57 <PeterT> make a shortcut to cmd.exe and run grfcodec there
19:04:50 <OwenS> One of the most atmospheric things I've ever seen made out of ABS
19:12:03 <andythenorth> how to test the random cb patch by frosch123 ....
19:12:17 <PeterT> andythenorth: do I move grfcodec.exe to the folder in which the GRF I am (de)-coding the GRF?
19:12:23 <PeterT> or can I just ../path/to/exe
19:12:56 <andythenorth> can't remember. That's what using a make file does to your skills
19:13:10 <andythenorth> Think you can just path to it
19:13:15 <frosch123> path to exe is fine, but you need to be in the correct working directory
19:13:28 <andythenorth> think you can path to the grf as well
19:13:39 <frosch123> the paths to the .pcx in nfo are relative to the working directory, not relative to the location of the .nfo
19:14:25 <PeterT> I'll do ../path.exe -e ./grf
19:15:03 <OwenS> Hmm... How would I go about defining a new spirite?
19:15:16 <OwenS> (is there some documentation out there?)
19:15:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: if I've understood your code correctly, the map size is no longer a factor for random prod. change cb?
19:15:51 <andythenorth> so it doesn't matter what size map I test?
19:16:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: for sane number of industries the mapsize has no influence, only if there are very few industries
19:16:21 <andythenorth> that's an edge case :)
19:16:51 <OwenS> (Or, in other words: Whats the correct way for a patch to introduce a new sprite?)
19:16:54 <frosch123> well, pick a reasonable size such as 256x256, 64x64 will likely cause trouble with firs. but i guess you know that :)
19:17:01 <Zuu> PeterT: Why don't you put the exe in your PATH?
19:17:08 <frosch123> OwenS: what sprite, you mean some new gui icon?
19:17:14 <andythenorth> frosch123: wonder what counts as 'working' for this though?
19:17:18 <PeterT> Zuu: too many things in PATH
19:17:29 <OwenS> frosch123: Well, I need to add a couple of icons, plus a couple which are displayed on the map (new signal type)
19:17:44 <OwenS> (I guess I'm gonna have to learn rudimentary NFO too :P )
19:17:52 <Zuu> Well you could always add another string to path or have something like c:\bin for random stuff.
19:18:33 <frosch123> for icons checkout svn://svn.openttd.org/extra/ottd_grf
19:18:43 <frosch123> and append them at the end of the ottd gui section
19:19:28 <andythenorth> I guess if industry closure seems 'ok', it's working, and it seems 'stupid' it's not working....
19:19:53 <PeterT> <DorpsGek> CompileFarm: nightly:windows::win32 (r19495) failed. D:
19:22:16 <PeterT> Zuu: if I add it to PATH, will it look recursivly?
19:22:39 <PeterT> for example if I add /Coding/
19:22:49 <PeterT> will it look in /Coding/grfcodec also?
19:22:51 <Zuu> I don't think so, but I haven't tried.
19:23:00 <frosch123> andythenorth: of course you need to use the random change callback for closures :)
19:23:37 <Zuu> You have to try that in order to know if it works or not or find some documentation.
19:23:53 <Alberth> PeterT: make 1 bin directory, and put everything there. Alternatively, use a softlink (if that works with windows)
19:24:28 <andythenorth> frosch123: seems like the game would run the random change cb anyway? I just have to choose if I want to explicitly handle it?
19:25:13 <frosch123> oh, and the diff directly affects the number of industry creations
19:29:39 <OwenS> Gaah! I'm looking for signal icons... they're just teh diagonal graphics...
19:30:07 <Zuu> PeterT: Another posibility that you have is to create bash aliases that include the full search path to programs if you use bash in Windows.
19:30:40 <PeterT> I have no idea what that means
19:30:52 <Zuu> you got linux/ubuntu right?
19:31:22 <Zuu> The command line prompt you use there is most likely bash.
19:31:22 <PeterT> I'm under Windows though
19:31:40 <Zuu> If you use msys/cygwin then you use bash in there usually.
19:32:11 <Zuu> But if you have set up PATH so it include the msys/cygwin bin folder you can just type bash inside your cmd-window and get bash in there.
19:32:24 <Zuu> Edit your ~/.bashrc and add aliases etc.
19:32:34 <Zuu> change to vi edit mode if you prefer that etc.
19:32:54 <andythenorth> PeterT: you'll figure it out. I used a crazy mac->wine setup for about a year :)
19:33:04 <Zuu> make aliases to turn on color output for cd grep etc. by default.
19:34:22 <OwenS> If only all work was as easy as recolouring some signals :p
19:39:08 <Alberth> Zuu: just install Linux :p
19:40:06 <Zuu> Then you got to fiddle with other stuff instead.
19:41:59 <Alberth> wouldn't know, I never tried using windows for anything serious.
19:43:48 <Zuu> I think it is good that I've been using linux seriously for about 2-3 years so I know the gnu tools not like an expert but still not too bad. Taking what's good from Linux and use it in Windows is in my option a good thing to do if you use Windows.
19:45:51 <Alberth> yeah, but you end up with problems from both windows and unix, not the best combination.
19:46:25 <OwenS> Hmm... I guess theres no way to tell from one of the openttd[wd].grf nfo files which sprite belongs to which number in the PCX?
19:46:40 <Alberth> ie windows used to freak out if you gave it a 10 line input command
19:47:09 <Alberth> and you had to convince the scripts to use c:\ stuff
19:47:43 <Alberth> OwenS: by x/y position :)
19:47:53 <Alberth> there is also a table somewhere
19:48:52 <frosch123> you could also decode the build eopnttd[wd].grf with grf2html
19:49:13 <OwenS> frosch123: Yes, but would the numbers correspond?
19:49:16 <Alberth> src/table/sprites.h eg
19:49:20 <frosch123> why does my irc client always switch positions of letters
19:49:42 <frosch123> OwenS: the sprite numbers in the .pcx have no meaning at all
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19:49:56 <frosch123> the only thing that matters are the pixel positions in the .nfo
19:49:57 <OwenS> frosch123: Yeah, I know, I was just hoping they'd be somewhere (even in a comment) t oassist :P
19:50:29 <PeterT> TrueBrain: Where does DorpsGek get the live-logs from the Compile farm?
19:50:53 <frosch123> dorpsgek and the farm are best friends
19:53:50 <TrueBrain> thank you Alberth :) Good to be back :)
19:54:24 <OwenS> OK, now all I need to figure out is what the " -1 * 0 05 15 99" line at the top of openttdgui.nfo does (I presume that I should be looking at action 0?)
19:55:15 <OwenS> Aah, It's the 05 which is operative
19:55:30 <DaleStan> Remember to skip the "length". (Which NFORenum will also fix for you.)
19:57:54 <OwenS> I presume for a new signal type, "-1 * 0 05 0E (New signals) 32 X". where X is an offset I somehow determine (Presumably from the sprite table?)
19:58:28 <Alberth> I am not sure this is the direction to go
19:58:57 <frosch123> OwenS: new signals is not what you want
19:59:08 <frosch123> start with the gui sprites, that part is easier
19:59:54 <OwenS> frosch123: Heh. I'm currently trying to add sprites for code I've just written...
20:00:10 <frosch123> then use the existing pbs graphics
20:00:37 <frosch123> SPR_SIGNALS_BASE + offset
20:01:29 <Alberth> TrueBrain: thank you for the OpenDune blogs, it is so nice to read about how they do things. I really enjoy them.
20:02:06 <TrueBrain> :) I should only spend more time on OpenDUNE .. glx has more commits lately then I am :)
20:02:29 <TrueBrain> but yes, it is very nice, how Dune2 did shit .. or more: how they did it wrong :)
20:02:47 <glx> but I just do "easy" things
20:03:06 <Alberth> perhaps your commits are bigger
20:03:50 <glx> latest commits are just c-ification (without even naming the functions)
20:04:31 <glx> because even when the code becomes readable, I still don't get what it does :)
20:04:42 <OwenS> I like how Kate makes the word "HACK" red :P
20:05:06 <Alberth> how far are you with the c-ification?
20:05:13 <Alberth> OwenS: or XXX (vim does)
20:05:27 <TrueBrain> 1/5th ... not bad, I say
20:05:30 <OwenS> (Since using PBS graphics for a non PBS signal is hacky :P )
20:05:40 <glx> and work on music/voices introduces many new things
20:07:19 <glx> my method is now "pick a function with no unresolved jumps/calls, c-ify, name if possible, loop"
20:07:37 <TrueBrain> and somehow I am in the same loop :p Just restricted to script functions
20:07:55 <glx> yeah I'm in unit functions ;)
20:08:37 <Zuu> Intresting, there is now about 40 people who has downloaded my AI library "SuperLib" without downloading CluelessPlus through bananas. As far as I know CluelessPlus is the only AI to use that library at the moment. :-p
20:08:50 <Zuu> (total download of them is about 400 each)
20:09:49 <TrueBrain> Zuu: people are strange, does that make me a stranger (8)
20:10:04 <glx> btw for an unknown reason my brain tends to convert sarw to * instead / ;)
20:10:20 <TrueBrain> glx: sar is just weird
20:11:22 <Alberth> Zuu: people download everything, my example stiarcase heightmap is downloaded 24046 times already
20:11:42 <TrueBrain> we should allow rating of things, should thin that out a bit :)
20:12:18 <Alberth> we could have a heightmap compeition :)
20:12:38 <Alberth> or 'heightmap of the week'
20:12:48 <TrueBrain> this just looks AWESOME
20:13:05 <TrueBrain> this just makes everyone horney
20:13:15 <Zuu> Alberth: Yep, though if they would download *everything* they would get both CluelessPlus and SuperLib :-)
20:13:19 <TrueBrain> crashes every browser
20:13:24 <Zuu> They were released at the same time.
20:13:49 <TrueBrain> in case the 005 didn't crash your browser
20:14:30 <TrueBrain> it is a 17 MiB PNG ...
20:14:33 <TrueBrain> the other is 24 MiB
20:15:04 <OwenS> sprite = SPR_SIGNALS_BASE + (type - 1) * 16 + variant * 64 + image + condition + (type > SIGTYPE_LAST_NOPBS ? 64 : 0); <-- Oh you've gotta be kidding me
20:15:10 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Does your server tell HTTP HEAD the correct size of it? Then one could use their custom HTTP cilent and check the size and survive. :-p
20:15:51 <TrueBrain> easier to see the size ;)
20:16:04 <Zuu> Not as fun as writing your own http client :-)
20:16:06 <TrueBrain> glx: yup :) On a pretty high resolution (not the highest, I can render bigger pictures :p)
20:16:22 <TrueBrain> Zuu: it just amazes me no browser has protection against such big images, but just start to load it
20:16:28 <TrueBrain> on linux, OOM comes and visit you
20:16:32 <TrueBrain> on Windows, it swaps to dead
20:16:38 <TrueBrain> I had the same with a 5 MiB XML file
20:17:17 <Zuu> yep, it could be used in a quite evil way I guess.
20:18:05 <aber> me too, and i use OS X...
20:18:08 <Zuu> But then if you want to be evil you can give wrong size information in your http header. And still many dynamic pages do provide wrong size information there so browsers can't really rely on it beeing correct.
20:18:39 * OwenS replaces that line with a table lookup...
20:19:03 <aber> but wait, openttd is the game with superSizeScreenshots... try one of the 400MB files :)
20:20:01 <aber> dammit, now everyone knows i am a java developer... super_size_screenshot
20:22:25 <PeterT> are those by chance created from the topic recently created in General Openttd?
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20:25:14 <frosch123> damn, i clicked it :(
20:25:18 <OwenS> Is SIGTYPE_LAST_NOPBS used for anything other than looking up the right sprite?
20:25:34 <frosch123> though i actually read what it was :(
20:25:56 <TrueBrain> frosch123: warned you ...
20:27:05 <frosch123> yeah, what annoys be more is that i was not fast enough with killing it
20:27:32 <TrueBrain> and what annoys me, is that the OOM does not kill it
20:27:40 <TrueBrain> it kills everything, but not the process consuming 99% memory
20:28:50 <frosch123> luckily i was fast enough when ff wanted to restore the session :p
20:29:13 <TrueBrain> either way, I am sorry. It was kind of mean :)
20:29:21 <PeterT> <Zuu> Intresting, there is now about 40 people who has downloaded my AI library "SuperLib" without downloading CluelessPlus through bananas. As far as I know CluelessPlus is the only AI to use that library at the moment. :-p <-- The forum counters are broken, if that's what you were looking at
20:29:24 <TrueBrain> I remember I generated the image for the first time ....
20:29:31 <PeterT> Horribly, horribly broken
20:29:37 <frosch123> np, i has nothing unsafed open :)
20:29:57 <Zuu> PeterT: Nope, but at BaNaNaS.
20:30:51 <TrueBrain> Zuu: did it possibily happened that one of the two was still on the frontpage?
20:31:12 <Zuu> You can see the download count there for the current version of any content. In the manager you can see it also for old versions of your own content.
20:31:22 <TrueBrain> fjb: either read the whole story, or stop showing off, it is no fun anymore :p
20:31:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: that patch puts one option on the list of fixes :)
20:31:49 <Zuu> TrueBrain: I think both were still at the front page today when I uploaded new versions, but I really didn't check.
20:31:54 <andythenorth> I think it's an improvement on current situation but not the right fix.
20:32:21 <andythenorth> what's a good way to design :| irc is a bit lame. normally I work with other developers on an A2 drawing board with a pencil :o
20:32:26 <TrueBrain> Zuu: either way, people are strange ;)
20:32:43 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: enough shared whiteboard on the internet
20:32:58 <Zuu> Unless we got many hidden AI devs.
20:33:02 <OwenS> Alberth: Hmm, this complicates things... I need it to behave not as PBS for cycling but as PBS for sprites
20:33:22 <fjb> TrueBrain: I wanted to avoid reading it all. Zhe png is awsome.
20:33:48 <Alberth> andythenorth: yeah, unfortunately, I don't understand the problem enough to know what to do
20:34:03 <fjb> TrueBrain: But I get lost in it trying to find where I live.
20:34:23 <andythenorth> TrueBrain crashed my browser dammit :P
20:34:25 <Alberth> OwenS: perhaps make a new constant?
20:34:42 <andythenorth> oh no my browser was just slow :D
20:34:48 <andythenorth> rendered a large world map
20:35:11 <Alberth> andythenorth: not enough network bandwidth :)
20:35:48 <OwenS> Alberth: New constant isn't enough (Can't compare against), so I'm removing SIGTYPE_LAST_PBS and adding a couple of inlines
20:36:01 * Alberth considers to writ an auto-responder for such people
20:37:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: what's the best way to help you understand the problem?
20:38:29 <Alberth> TrueBrain: how complicated is it to customize paste.openttd.org, so the 'diff' syntax highlighting is near the top of the drop-down?
20:40:25 <TrueBrain> Alberth: given that pastebin is the most unreadable code ever, I would say near to impossible
20:40:32 <TrueBrain> on a positive note, someone should write a simple replacement in Django
20:40:37 <TrueBrain> but I have 0.000 time
20:41:04 <TrueBrain> I even had Rubidium fix the CF :p
20:41:19 <PeterT> Alberth: Is it that hard to open the menu and hit 'd'?
20:41:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: answer my questions when I have them. That will have to wait a couple of weeks, I have too much things going on at the moment.
20:42:44 <Alberth> PeterT: hmm, I'd never have guessed that you could use the keyboard.
20:42:46 <Rubidium> it ain't fixed... it didn't help
20:43:09 <TrueBrain> the VBox update didn't help?
20:43:13 <Alberth> TrueBrain: or install another paste :p
20:43:22 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: nope, it didn't
20:43:24 <PeterT> Alberth: Is that sarcastic?
20:43:29 <TrueBrain> Alberth: there seems to be only one
20:44:27 <Alberth> PeterT: to you? no, that was serious, I never use a keyboard when doing 'mousy' things.
20:44:45 <PeterT> Alberth: Oh, because I thought I was a bit rude
20:45:44 <Alberth> PeterT: I use a console and/or a text editor about 90% of the time, so I rarely use the mouse
20:48:06 <PeterT> Alberth: Then you would be a good person to ask. Is there a better way of scrolling in nano?
20:49:38 <Alberth> PeterT: I use gvim, not nano. Sorry.
20:50:05 <PeterT> Alberth: I would use vim, but I don't know how to search for keywords
20:50:35 <frosch123> just use sed, everything about it is described a 5 man pages or so
20:51:27 <Alberth> less copied it from more
20:51:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: industry code - sure whenever you're free. I have some thoughts, but they're unfinished :)
20:51:30 <frosch123> s/a 5 man/on 5 info/
20:52:38 <Alberth> argh, stupid gnu people
20:54:32 <frosch123> are they like gnus?
20:54:51 <Alberth> more like 'everybody has X, let's do Y instead
20:56:04 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: trac .. ieuw
20:56:19 <frosch123> no idea, i only deal with linux and solaris, so i don't know much about "everybody"
20:56:46 <Alberth> use a *BSD system for a while :)
20:57:37 <TrueBrain> because long term exposure is harmful
20:57:45 <frosch123> and wrt. user tools on solaris, i am used to prefix everything with a g, as patch, grep, diff and co are just crap on native solaris
20:58:05 <frosch123> at least on the versions i have contact to, which might not be the very much newest
20:58:18 <fjb> frosch123: Native Solaris is System V, not BSD.
20:58:36 <Alberth> you can have that with Linux too, eg Centos :)
20:58:46 <frosch123> i was not talking about bsd, but "everybody" :)
20:59:20 <OwenS> frosch123: The ones on OpenSolaris all default to GNU now :-)
21:06:59 <OwenS> Hmm... Adding a new signal type has touched rather a bit more source than I anticipated
21:07:52 *** Hyronymus has joined #openttd
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21:26:12 <PeterT> sbr makes alot of nice patches
21:53:43 <frosch123> who emptied my coffee mug?
21:59:11 <frosch123> i would prefer if they would only rearrange the matrix when the mug is empty, not after it was just refilled
22:00:01 <Alberth> be smarter than them, take two mugs
22:04:26 <frosch123> yeah, better not read what he wrote :p
22:04:31 *** lewymati has joined #openttd
22:13:13 <OwenS> Hmm... When adding a setting, do I need to use SDT_VAR or SDV_CONDVAR?
22:13:55 <frosch123> if you store it in the savegame you need CONDVAR, and specify the savegame version in it
22:14:23 <OwenS> OK, and I presume I need to bump the version at the same time (Well I do anyway... things will get confused if they load to find a new signal type...)
22:17:27 <Hirundo> If you're adding an advanced setting, yes
22:21:52 *** Nite_Owl has joined #openttd
22:29:18 <frosch123> open the image in a image procesing program, and use brightness/contrast/gamma to fix it
22:30:48 <PeterT> I don't know how to do that :/
22:35:40 <PeterT> frosch123: What type of image proccessing program?
22:40:08 <fjb> Any type of painting program that uses bitmaps.
22:52:57 <OwenS> Hmm, it seems that the OpenGFX PBS signals collection is incomplete (i.e. NAND signals look like normal PBS with OpenGFX)
23:13:22 <Ammler> do you have overflow protection?
23:13:39 <OwenS> Defaults to 256 changes permitted
23:14:04 <Ammler> why should opengfx be incomplete?
23:14:16 <OwenS> Ammler: The signal graphic I use is not normally used
23:14:30 <OwenS> I use the "PBS-exit" graphic for now
23:15:04 <PeterT> Terkhen: where is that option in GIMP?
23:16:37 <Terkhen> I used it some months ago, I can't remember
23:16:47 <fjb> Look for brightness. You should be able to find that on your own. (At least I hope so.)
23:19:01 <PeterT> I found it, but I don't know how that will help me with converting White -> Black
23:19:38 <fjb> It will make the picture darker.
23:20:17 <fjb> I guess you don't want everything to be really black.
23:21:15 <PeterT> yes, just the empty area
23:21:27 <PeterT> fjb: look in the zip I posted on tt-forums
23:21:39 <frosch123> PeterT: just do colors->curves
23:22:10 <OwenS> TrueBrain: Considered going to StartSSL for the SSL cert? At the least both IE and Firefox ship their root, and it's free
23:22:25 <PeterT> frosch123: looks like what I want
23:22:36 <PeterT> frosch123: Do I need to select anything else?
23:25:43 <OwenS> And on the register page, "Note: before validating your account will not work. Accounts not validated within 48 hours will be dismissed." should probably be changed to "Your account will not work before it is validated. Accounts not validated within 48 hours will be removed."
23:33:05 <Ammler> OwenS: we use startssl, it isn't very much better..
23:33:39 <OwenS> Ammler: They're getting there. As mentioned, Firefox and Windows now have them. Opera doesn't. Chrome I dunno
23:36:20 <Rubidium> OwenS: using startssl for what?
23:36:48 <Rubidium> do they provide... uhm... what are they called...
23:37:18 <Rubidium> ah yes, wildcard ssl certificates?
23:37:33 <OwenS> Rubidium: Yes, but only for a (relatively) low price
23:38:58 <Rubidium> right... 10.000 $ insurance without paying?
23:39:13 <OwenS> Rubidium: Is that possible? ;-)
23:41:20 <OwenS> Perhaps that is the case then
23:43:29 <Rubidium> sorry, but that makes like a million alarm bells in my brain go off at the same time
23:44:38 <OwenS> Rubidium: The guy who runs StartCom is pretty active on the mozilla-security-policy list, and StartCom have been WebTrust validated (i.e. they've been checked to be legit by the same people who check everyone else)
23:45:04 <Ammler> those are simply "sponsored" by the paid certs...
23:45:25 <OwenS> Also, how often is said insurance claimed upon? ;-)
23:45:51 <Ammler> what needs happen to claim it?
23:46:34 <OwenS> I believe that your SSL cert needs to leak to someone because of the CA, and then that someone has to cause you damages, and then you can claim back said damages for up to $10k
23:46:41 <OwenS> I.E, it's useless, but everyone offers it...
23:46:41 <Rubidium> Ammler: security breaches
23:46:53 <Rubidium> but then the company is probably bankrupt
23:47:24 <OwenS> It's there to make PHBs feel happy
23:47:48 <Ammler> Rubidium: usually they have a "backup" insurance
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